Your last graf says it all, Jane. And reminds me of the guys in Stalag 17 tying noisemakers to Peter Graves and throwing him out in the yard. These fucks deserve no less.
Sharkbabe |
02.25.06 - 1:44 pm | #
So who are the "experts" in the middle east.?
There are some people who know a lot more than what is ever printed in newspapers or magazines- or popular books- but who is really in a position to have a handle on what's really going on and how it's likely to progress? Beats the shit out of me? Professors in US universities? Political observors on the ground in Iraq and Iran? They all tend to view the situation from a perspective of their own political reality..if there are a group of objective and knowledgable people on this issue- I sure don't know who they are.
rwcole |
02.25.06 - 1:48 pm | #
Personally, I find it very useful that the myoptic, looney ravings of a pre-war Richard Perle are now being recycled and his guest show status as an "expert" allows him to further wax on about the shit his earlier ravings dragged us into.
Bailey |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 1:49 pm | #
Bailey -- that would be true if the host were actually CALLING Perle on his bullshit and pointing to all the crap that Matthews has let him unload on his show over the years.
Barring that someone might listen to the show and actually BELIEVE Perle knew what he was talking about.
jane hamsher |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 1:51 pm | #
Even if you give only 50% credibility (my standard until I learn more about the person and/or situation), the looks on those guys' faces communicate a lot.
Our "news" is a joke, but the mess in Iraq is no laughing matter. And, ultimately, our fault. All those innocent people...
dannyboy |
02.25.06 - 1:52 pm | #
Does Little Richard still have a house in France?
SpringBored |
02.25.06 - 1:53 pm | #
Does Little Richard still have a revolving door problem?
SpringBored |
02.25.06 - 1:54 pm | #
Does Little Richard have nightmares about his last brush with the FBI?
SpringBored |
02.25.06 - 1:54 pm | #
Does Little Richard still have a bloody security clearance?
SpringBored |
02.25.06 - 1:54 pm | #
What is Perle's official position right now?
He said, "think we need to stay calm, which is what we in the leadership in Iraq are urging, urging Iraqis to do."
I read this as provocation camouflaged as megalomania.
RJJ |
02.25.06 - 1:56 pm | #
Shorter Perle: I Do believe in fairies. I do, I do, I do!
Of all the neocon slop jockeys, Perle and Wolfowitz make me literally nauseous. W, Rover, Rummy and Dickwhoshotanoldmanintheface make me cringe.
There's a difference.
Thanks, Jane, for the fine summary of this fine mess that will still be a mess for years to come.
And don't forget Feith! I try to forget that guy every dang day...
SpringBored |
02.25.06 - 1:57 pm | #
I saw the Perle segment and was actually glad Matthews let him run on just like old times. The big difference now is that nothing Perle said matched the reality, including the devastating pictures from recent days and the reports David Schuster has been giving on Iraq the last couple nights. So having Perle spout his nonsense, after Schuster's report, was a way to link the disaster to the unapologetic architects -- ah, so these are the morons who led us into that!
I don't know what Matthews thought he was doing, but that was how I thought it came across. Just my take.
scarecrow |
02.25.06 - 1:58 pm | #
Yesterday, I can't remember where now because I was reading so voraciously, I heard some pundithug (or was it some Administration official?) deploy the word "desperate" again to describe those who are attacking the mosques. I first encountered that word to applied to the insurgents in July 2003, although, of course, Donny Rumsfeld warned the media not to call them insurgents back in those days.
"Desperate"? Well, of course.
As we all know, the insurgent strategy has failed up to now - the country is being rebuilt rapidly, oil revenues are up, electricity is flowing 24/7, all the schools are painted, jobs are everywhere and they had elections. which have ushered in an era of healing by means of a power-sharing arrangement among old antagonists. So, faced with all this progress, it's no wonder the desperadoes have taken the desperate move of blowing up religious icons. Last resort. Er. last throes.
Victory is just around the corner. The light at the end of the tunnel is getting brighter. Except for a little mopping up, the Iraq war will all be over in a few weeks. Trust me.
Meteor Blades |
02.25.06 - 1:58 pm | #
EPUed, so I'm reposting:
By the way, am I the only one who's more alarmed about Saudi Arabia than Iraq? The situation in Iraq is awful but not unexpected. The attack in Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, suggests al Queda is trying to foment discontent there, too. I can't imagine that your average Saudi is very happy with the government there. And the attack is highlighting the fact that their government (and our government, for that matter) cares far more about oil than about regular people.
Frank Probst | 02.25.06 - 1:55 pm | #
Frank Probst |
02.25.06 - 1:59 pm | #
Never mind. The "Civil War" is already over. Everybody can go home now:
It's been two months, or more since the election, and Iraq has not been able to from a government. Now the shadowy forces who want total disintigration are making their move. Let us hope that the Iraqi people maintain their remarkable resistance to general violence against each other.
To be honest, I am in awe of the Iraqi people. The vast majority of the population has stayed calm, resisted attempts to stir them into civil unrest and war by very sinister shadowy groups who are practising the most provocative and vile terrorism against civilians.
And also, in the face of the most dishonest, corrupt, arrogant, feckless, ignorant, reckless, stupid disastrous and downright moronic ventures in US history: Bush/Cheney Iraq policy. How can people like Perle have a shred of believability left? How can they appear in public without a bag over their heads in shame?
Iraq is threatened by something worse than civil war: a descent into general lawlessness and chaos. Wolcott said it: there is no high road out of hell. Let us hope against hope that this will not happen.
Every non-Bushite, Dem or GOP or independent should be screaming bloody murder about this everyday. And to any trolls out there: Yes, my poor trusting dears, it IS all Bush and Cheney's fault. They lit the fuse to what every competent civilian and military authrorities told them was a potential time bomb. And then at every opportunity to avoid the worse (eg, proper postwar planning), they arrogantly made the worst possible decision. And they still don't think they have to explain a damn thing. Pigs.
Woe to Bush:
[Disguised] KING HENRY: …I could not die any where so contented as in the king's company; his cause being just and his quarrel honourable.
Michael WILLIAMS That's more than we know.
…
Michael WILLIAMS: But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place;' some swearing, some crying for a surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left. I am afeard there are few die well that die in a battle; for how can they charitably dispose of any thing, when blood is their argument? Now, if these men do not die well, it will be a black matter for the king that led them to it; whom to disobey were against all proportion of subjection.
Remember to exit from haloscan after a comment, then refresh from main page before going back into comments. Otherwise, it just reposts your comment.
We've all been there. Welcome abored.
scarecrow |
02.25.06 - 2:03 pm | #
I've been working on a timeline of Bush disasters more to keep it straight in my own head than anything else. The current situation in Iraq reminds of another bit of wisdom I came across:
I said on the record, I don't understand how people can really believe that removing this huge source of instability [Saddam] is going to be a cause of instability in the Middle East.
I understand what they're thinking about.
I'm not blind to the uncertainties of this situation, but they just seem to be blind to the instability that that son of a bitch was causing. It's as though … the only thing to think about was that there might be some inter-communal violence if he were removed.
Paul Wolfowitz in a Vanity Fair interview May 9, 2003: 8 days after Mission Accomplished.
Hugh |
02.25.06 - 2:03 pm | #
Careful. Don't forget that the presidency of Iran is a weak office (which was clear when there was a reformer in power). The present occupant is trying to expand its power by becoming more militant than the clerics, but it isn't really up to him whether Iran makes war on anyone.
The real ruler of Iran is Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, not Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
Joe Buck |
02.25.06 - 2:04 pm | #
A few emptywheel comments in the last thread made me remember the incidents in Basra a few months back, when several British SAS troops DISGUISED AS IRAQIS were caught by Iraqi police -- in a car full of explosives.
They were held by Iraqi police in Basra and later busted out of jail with British tanks. Anybody remember this?
Why would Sunnis have done this? Doesn't make sense to me. Has Al Qaeda taken credit for the Golden Mosque bombing according to any Iraqi or Arab souces independent of the US media? They did for the Saudi bombings.
sorry about typos. Not in good mood after tuning in and seeing the ka-boom and flames theme on FDL today.
anon_1 |
02.25.06 - 2:04 pm | #
He said, "think we need to stay calm, which is what we in the leadership in Iraq are urging, urging Iraqis to do."
I read this as provocation camouflaged as megalomania.
RJJ | 02.25.06 - 1:56 pm |
Yes, I noticed that too when I read this about an hour ago. I'm pretty sure Perle no longer holds any official or semi-official government job at the moment, like the Defense Policy Board. I took it to mean that he is still consulted on the making of policy "off the record" so to speak, but yeah, maybe it's just the megalomania, who knows?
the cyber ruffian |
02.25.06 - 2:07 pm | #
Yes to #4 ?!!! God. I've run into kids scared that passive exposure to pot smoke will ruin their chance to get a clearance....
And Perle still has his? Wow. Something really stinks in Amsterdam...
SpringBored |
02.25.06 - 2:10 pm | #
Springbored -- my mistake. I see their all different.
scarecrow |
02.25.06 - 2:11 pm | #
"May it be tied to their tails like a tin can for all eternity."
more than likely, posterity will paste the pompous, stupid, and megalomaniacal neo-cons; the incompetent and malicious bushcriminal; and the suckling corporate media with the disaster in Iraq,
but so what?
the dead and the maimed have been wasted for no reason and those of us that know something of empathy (i.e., everyone except republicans) have to live with its horrors.
gak |
02.25.06 - 2:12 pm | #
rwcole @ 02.25.06 - 1:48 pm -- This is a good question, and I think the most truthful answer is that there really isn't anyone who can tell you what the whole truth is there. There are quite a few good observers there, but none of them has a really good view of things right now. The allied forces only see what an invading army will see, which is half the truth at best, almost none of it at worst. The independent observers, journalists, NGO workers, and native observers are either too afraid to leave the safety of the Green Zone or allied military escort (for good reason), or they are afraid to say what they've seen.
Even if you knew nothing about this situation before today, reading the articles ReddHedd quoted in the previous article makes it very clear that there is no effective government security force there. The police and the Iraqi army are as riddled with fanatics as the militias are.
One thing is abundantly clear - it's going to take a lot more army than we have over there right now to put a lid on this situation. It might not be possible at all. We certainly don't have a lot more army to send over. If we can't persuade the rest of the world to get involved in this, it really is time to get out.
Cujo359 |
02.25.06 - 2:12 pm | #
Joe Buck: that is correct. Remember how the reformist president Khatami was treated by the mainstream press, and corrupt pundits and Bushite liars? As an impotent meaningless symbol: the ceremonial president if Iran. Funny how the structure of the Iranian government changes so quickly when politically convenient. The voice of the new president, Ahmadinejad. is the voice of the Iranian government.
I wonder if there is a campaign underway. I just checked Wikipedia (to get A's name correct) and it baldly states, without any argument or evidence or analysis or history at all, that the presidency is now a very important position. Really? How convenient. I wonder if the Wiki has been ideologically hacked. I guess I should send Juan Cole's blog a note and request his opinioin on that.
anon_1 |
02.25.06 - 2:15 pm | #
"May it be tied to their tails like a tin can for all eternity."
Though they'll try, they can't really pin the tail on the Donkey with this one.
punaise |
02.25.06 - 2:15 pm | #
Just talked to my son-in-law who is in the army and did one Iraq tour already (and is apprehensive about a second one). He said something that has been alluded to in the media (or at least the blog media) much earlier.
He was concerned about the gradually decreasing morale of the troops that come home after finishing their Iraq assignments and stated to me "we [American troops] WON the war! The politicians ARE LOSING the peace."
If Iraq disintegrates more in the near future, we (and the Democrats) should keep this distinction in mind.
sonate |
02.25.06 - 2:16 pm | #
Frank Probst @ 02.25.06 - 1:59 pm -- It may be alarming, but it shouldn't be unexpected. SA has had problems with terrorism for years, even after they started paying serious attention. The spillover from Iraq alone should ensure that the Saudis experience considerably more attacks in the years ahead. Even if there were no terrorisim in Iraq, Saudi Arabia would be a target, anyway. To Osama Bin Laden, they're enemy number one.
Cujo359 |
02.25.06 - 2:16 pm | #
can anyone imagine a more dismal context where being able to say "I told you so" brings so little satisfaction?
run the neo-con bastards out of town on a rail.
punaise |
02.25.06 - 2:17 pm | #
"Iraq leaders unite to thwart civil war"
"Iraqi political leaders have agreed to push ahead with US-sponsored efforts to form a government and condemned sectarian violence in a bid to ease the gravest crisis in postwar..." http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/
...06097071264.htm
I would invite those who are interested to link to the English version of aljazeera, as a way of probably getting at the "corporate Arab/Persian media."
OT, per Jane, ReddHedd, and emptywheel, I have found Swopa and others at needlenose to be really perceptive wrt the Middle East.
One of the best resources FDL has imo is MarkfromIreland.
John Casper |
02.25.06 - 2:18 pm | #
Btw, of course it was Cheneyco (wholly-owned subsidiary of Israel & Halliburton) that blew the golden dome off that incredibly beautiful & historic & beloved shrine. When looking at the most despicable, heartless, reckless, evil, mayhem-inducing act of violence - cherchez la neocon junta.
Sharkbabe |
02.25.06 - 2:18 pm | #
Perle benefits from terror...
"Perle is also a managing partner in a venture-capital company called Trireme Partners L.P., which was registered in November, 2001, in Delaware. Trireme’s main business, according to a two-page letter that one of its representatives sent to Khashoggi last November, is to invest in companies dealing in technology, goods, and services that are of value to homeland security and defense. The letter argued that the fear of terrorism would increase the demand for such products in Europe and in countries like Saudi Arabia and Singapore. " -- Sy Hersh in the the New Yorker.
For Richard Perle, the more terror, the greater the profits.
Slothrop |
02.25.06 - 2:19 pm | #
Ken Pollack's obsequiousness to the neocons has been truly disturbing. In October 2002 he and Congressman Jim McDermott held a debate on the impending war. McDermott, characteristically unintimidated, predicted the reality we are seeing today: no WMD, laundrylist of lies getting us into - and keeping us in - Iraq guerrila war (insurgency), house-to-house and mosque-to-mosque fighting, inevtiable full-scale civil war based on sectarian tensions, "Vietnam -like quagmire", 200,000 or more likely dead before it's "over".....
Pollack, stunned, shot back with a whiny screech "That's not fair! It won't be Vietnam! That's not fair! You're just trying to inflame the public with these absurd fantasies...".
If only the public had gotten sufficiently inflamed.
A couple of years ago Pollack was forced to write his apologgia in the Atlantic Monthly. He acknowledged that he'd been duped by the intelligence. But he stood firm in defending Bush/Cheney as the real dupers.
Hearing anything from him now just sets my teeth on edge.
shoephone |
02.25.06 - 2:20 pm | #
Hugh,
Thanks for another Ipecac moment. (not you, the quote)
After visiting the ME a few times and informal study of the region and its history, I was and remain befuddled, perplexed and confused by the source of Wolfowitzie & Co. delusional passions.
Is it just plain old denial or is it just a pathology driven by a truly sinister agenda?
The above is a rhetorical question. Unless one of you exceedingly bright and insightful bloginators have a notion of why Wankowitz continued to proclaim that Iraq wouldn't, couldn't possibly present the same ethnic/religious/tribal violent conflicts of, let's say, Bosnia.
But...Ken's at Brookings! The infamous liberal DC thinktank!
It's all those darn liberals who got us into Irag...
SpringBored |
02.25.06 - 2:27 pm | #
OT...
A snippet from Time Magazine...
"The Justice Department has a message for Congress: clean up your house or else we may have to do it for you. A senior federal law enforcement official told TIME that the paralyzed and often lax House ethics committee has created a vacuum that prosecutors won't hesitate to fill. The House’s internal mechanism for keeping corruption in check is “broken,” says the official."
A question. Which one is the fox and which one is the chicken coop?
sonate |
02.25.06 - 2:27 pm | #
Didn't Perle or Feith or one of those guys get something like a target letter in the Hollinger investigation?
Nothing has been done to effectively address one of the huge issues in Iraq and throughout the ME and that is the rampant unemployment of the young and mid-section of the society - young men in particular. WIthout addressing that, there cannot be much progress, IMO.
**********
rwcole | 02.25.06 - 9:54 am | # et seq
I have been feeling that same way since before Christmas and the things you are saying have made me need that second, third glass of whine to sleep.
The situation in Iraq appears to have gone WAY past "should we stay or should we go?" A whole new approach is needed- and I haven't heard even the beginnings of that discussion.
It is so frustrating. I think Murtha and a couple of others in the House, and Feingold almost all alone in the Senate (although I do think that Leahy, Durbin and Kennedy have moved his direction, and that even, although I don't trust him, Graham has shown that he thinks these are the discussions we should be having - IMO I have seen pushes in that direction from him.
When you ask for the experts on Iraq, I think the expertise needed is not just "Iraq" but is a large cross section and that, in many instances, those who were a good source once have been disenfranchised within the administration now to where you have to wonder a bit as to how we assemble the right teams.
For example, someone like Scheuer is careful to limit what he says about Iraq, bc his expertise was more specific to UBL. Someone like Scowcroft had lots of info on how to keep us from ending up where we have, but the info on how to address where we ARE?
The problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them.
There are so many levels of issues and IMO a lot tie directly to our longstanding support and ties with existing regimes. THroughout the area, in addition to all their longstanding sectarian issues, we have allowed the national assets to be concentrated in the hands of a few with whom we kept a control relationship and never really paid much attention to how this played out over time. We also have jumped into bed quickly with extremists who were "in favor" as stopgaps against extremists who were "out of favor".
We selectively "democratize" Iraq - but not Saudi Arabi or UAE etc. -it all shows no overall gameplan. Close your eyes and start shooting.
The main thing is that new teams and some resurrection of old teams are desparately needed. People who were "getting it right", even if they are now out of the public eye and even if they are not our favorites, need to be enticed to come back in some working format of consultancy with enough independence to de-propagandize their input and output, and we need to see what we can come up with.
But "national security" aside - it WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BE DONE IN SECRECY. The secrecy has shot us in the foot over and over; allowed us to be immoral and petty in our response; provided for rewarding incompetency and punishing competent dissonance; facilitation of domestic proganda etc.
That's the first step IMO. Hw we get there - no clue. No one seems to want to dig in and do the hard work.
Mary |
02.25.06 - 2:29 pm | #
Last night on NPR, Ahmad Kalazi (spelled wrong) the US ambassador said the news reports were wrong. There was only 9 mosques attached. What a crock of shit.
colleen military mom |
02.25.06 - 2:30 pm | #
there are brave journalists dying to bring us the real story in iraq. of course they are fighting against the millions of info warfare dollars the tax payers of this country are supporting.
i recieve updates in my inbox from dahr jamail. this arrived less than 1/2 hr ago.
please take a second to honor their lives
"Al-Arabiya TV reports that on February 22rd, the day of the bombing at the Golden Mosque in Samarra:
“Al-Arabiya Television has lost its correspondent in Iraq, Atwar Bahjat, with two other colleagues. Atwar gave the last live dispatch to Al-Arabiya Television at 1500 gmt yesterday. Atwar disappeared after that. The Iraqi Police today confirmed that she and two other colleagues were assassinated in Samarra... The three journalists were covering the attack on the shrine of the two Shi'i imams, Ali al-Hadi and Al-Hasan al-Askari, north of Baghdad.”
annie |
02.25.06 - 2:30 pm | #
Forgt to mention, for those who haven't heard, that number of Iraqi military units able to operate on their own has gone from one to zero (at bottom of post below):
As for conspiracy theorists here, I tend to reist them. The idea that US would want to worsen situation in Iraq to justify permanent presence seems just too moronic, depraved, risky, and insane, even for them. But... administration has been lying by omision and commision about plans for permanent bases. There was something new about these bases recenlty but cannot find it now, so will simply link to article showing it has been an open secriet for almost two years. So I guess I am cosidering making a tinfoil hat. Bushites plan permanent bases, and too much progress in Iraq might cause problems with a base agreement. That much, I have to concede, is true.
Thanks for the reminder.
RJJ |
02.25.06 - 2:34 pm | #
punaise @ 02.25.06 - 2:17 pm -- can anyone imagine a more dismal context where being able to say "I told you so" brings so little satisfaction?
Yes, but they generally involve time-travel and phasers.
The sad part is that it was obvious, even to relatively uninformed folks like me, that some of this was bound to happen. Yeah, the complete lack of WMD was unexpected, and maybe how the Iraqi army just faded away to become the insurgency, but even there one had to accept the possibility.
The factionalism and desire for revenge, the lawlessness, and complete lack of leaders who could function in a liberal democracy were all inevitable, and given our lack of preparadness, they were bound to lead to the situation we see now.
Cujo359 |
02.25.06 - 2:34 pm | #
But...Ken's at Brookings! The infamous liberal DC thinktank!
It's all those darn liberals who got us into Irag...
SpringBored | 02.25.06 - 2:27 pm | #
Exactly. Because they're really just "liberals".
shoephone |
02.25.06 - 2:38 pm | #
I heart dahr jamail and riverbend.
angie |
02.25.06 - 2:39 pm | #
The famous neocon Francis Fukuyama recently published an article discussing the shambles that remains of neoconservatism after Bush and Iraq.
snip
"
But the overarching lesson that emerges from these cases is that the United States does not get to decide when and where democracy comes about. By definition, outsiders can't "impose" democracy on a country that doesn't want it; demand for democracy and reform must be domestic. Democracy promotion is therefore a long-term and opportunistic process that has to await the gradual ripening of political and economic conditions to be effective. "
This bottom line conclusion of Fukuyama was obvious to a lot of us before Iraq. How could the neocons have been so stupid?
Alvord |
02.25.06 - 2:39 pm | #
Re: some of the earlier posts on Wurmser. I still shake my head over his royal family solution to, not just Iraq, but the whole of the Middle East.
Destabilize Iraq; bring in the remnants of the old Iraqi royal family (Sunni) exiled in the 50's to Jordan; the Shia will be thrilled to accept them and not only that, the Iraqi Shia's glee will spread to Iran and Syria who will follow their lead and their Royal Family too; with Iran and Syria now tamely in line with the Iraqi royal family, Hamas and Hezbollah go away and without them, Palestine must cave to Israeli demands and then everyone lives happily ever after.
Re: the issues on battalions, a large part of the initial problem was how poorly we handled the $$ over there. They showed payrolls for battalions that didn't exist, at least, not in whole. Iraq had that huge "buy" of goods for its crew that were defective, outdated, etc. and where a lot of the money allocated just disappeared as well; so they were sending out these guys without body armor, etc. It shows how desparate for jobs so many are that they have kept lining up for those positions anyway - anything to work.
THat's what we haven't been getting. Throughout the ME. Huge segments of young people with no school and no work. It's a recipe for disaster anywhere (think inner city here).
If the whole thing didn't depress me so much, I'd laugh out loud over the irony in the WaPo article,
where the Pentagon spin hit a pretty unfortunate deadline:
In a new report to Congress assessing the Iraq situation, the Pentagon also asserted yesterday that the insurgency is losing strength, becoming less effective in its attacks, and failing to undermine the development of an Iraqi democracy.
WEll, at least, you know, a week ago when they typed it up and where hoping that no one was watching.
The report was written last week, before the bombing of a Shiite shrine and a wave of deadly reprisal attacks. It is the third in a series of reports that Congress requires from the Pentagon every three months.
Mary |
02.25.06 - 2:40 pm | #
"the complete lack of WMD was unexpected"
Cujo359 | 02.25.06 - 2:34 pm |
I respectfully but very strongly disagree with that one part of your comment. I think the complete lack of operational WMD was to be expected, Otherwise the arguments made by the Bushites would have been less risable and inchorent and less obvioulsy total BS.
anon_1 |
02.25.06 - 2:40 pm | #
OT again (I apologize in advance) but this is too wierd...
"A bizarre story concerning Alaska's 2004 Election has taken yet another even more bizarre turn this week
A long-standing public records request for the release of Election 2004 database files created by Diebold's voting system had been long delayed...the state's top Security Official has now -- at the last minute -- stepped in to deny the request. The grounds for the denial: the release of the information poses a "SECURITY RISK" TO the state of ALASKA." (emphasis added)
What risk? Are the Diebold machines going to self-destruct if they are inspected?
Back to regular programing.
sonate |
02.25.06 - 2:42 pm | #
"We are history's actors, and...and, uh...uh-oh... look, we'll have to get back to you, OK?"
What do you expect of a guy who gets his cues about global warming from a sci fi novelist? This is why a WaPo byliine said yesterday that Bush's foreign policy is based on "geopolitical fantasy."
Btw, I've just rediscovered a wonderful site, Watching America. I've just written about it briefly but you can go directly to their site instead of listening to me gas on about it.
Imagine a site in which dozens and dozens of news sources are listed... and none of them are American? This is a site dedicated to the international press writing about US issues and is, I believe, potentially valuable to any political blogger.
jurassicpork |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 2:44 pm | #
"What do you expect of a guy who gets his cues about global warming from a sci fi novelist?"
jurassicpork | Homepage | 02.25.06 - 2:44 pm
I've noted the "media fallout" regarding an administration reference to Michael Crichton. But I don't have the original reference. Can you (or anyone else here) give me an article or a link?? Thanks in advance.
sonate |
02.25.06 - 2:48 pm | #
sonate: link for Alaska Diebold story? I can't find anything.
anon_1 |
02.25.06 - 2:48 pm | #
sonate, that is exactly what happened in new mexico after a court case to find out about the weird election results on the res and other impoverished or minority areas.
annie |
02.25.06 - 2:51 pm | #
sonate: it started with Sen Inhofe citing Crichton's anti-global warming novel as a reference:
anon_1 @ 02.25.06 - 2:40 pm -- I was writing from a personal perspective, and to me, that was unexpected. I did not expect that they were a serious threat to the U.S., and probably not even a serious threat to Saddam's neighbors. It was clear only after all that searching that there was nothing of any significance.
Many people expected that Saddam had continued on with the WMD programs somehow. It's a reasonable assumption, based on his record. There was also enough question about what happened to all the old WMD materials to be suspicious about.
My opinion at the time was that as long as the sanctions were in place, Saddam wasn't going to deploy WMDs in any visible way. Instead, it seemed likely he'd just keep as much of the effort going as possible, with prototype weapons or limited production runs.
And of course, by "WMD" I mean chemical weapons and maybe anthrax - anything else would have been too dangerous or difficult under the circumstances.
That he might not have any at all and was instead implying that he did was certainly a possibility, but it seemed, at least to me, to be the far less likely one.
Cujo359 |
02.25.06 - 2:52 pm | #
I began to gag at the Tweetie/Perle conversation so switched to cartoons. Glad you took the time to listen and report, proving once again that Perle is stark ravers and Tweetie is just a tool. Perle and Tweetie would make a good cartoon with Kindasleazie, Big Dick and Chimpy as co-stars. The setting should be a looney bin with Laura as Nurse Ratshit.
Hawkseye |
02.25.06 - 2:53 pm | #
Tryin to think out loud past today's news at least shollowly into the future.
Can we say for sure that Iraq is lost? Well not for sure I guess- but the PROBABILITY of a successful experiment certainly becomes smaller with each passing day- so I won't get involved in declaring a failure- I shall instead HYPOTHESIZE- what if it IS a failure?
If Iraq continues into conflagration- or breaks apart- or joins up with Iran in a shiite brotherhood- or follows any of the other noxious paths open to it, what will the reprecussions be?
It will, of course, sound the death knell to the "neoconservative" movement. The neo-conservatives were a group of avowed leftists who became disenchanted with the course of the soviet union- trotskites who deplored stalinism- they determined that the US could play a very ACTIVE role in world affairs and bring about a new world order through fostering democracy and free enterprise principles. They advocated the war with Iraq as a first step in a "New American Century".
The utter failure of their policy in Iraq will doom them- and likely bring "Pragmatists" back to the fore of US foreign policy.. More Kissinger!
US voters will not allow another such experiment- even with another 9/11. You only get one bite at THAT apple- and the neo-cons have had theirs.
Clusterfuck's presidency totally hangs on Iraq. If Iraq fails- so does he- and EVERYTHING he has stood for. There will be no throwing out the bathwater (clusterfuck) and saving the baby (neo-con wet dreams) as Buckley hopes for- they will go out together..
So what sort of govt. will follow a failure in Iraq?
I suspect that people will be looking for "tried and true"- and "pragmatism". They will just want a govt. that keeps things between the ditches- one that dreams less- and delivers more- One that unites with modest results rather than one that divides with grand schemes..
The public will want the "anti-clusterfuck" govt. On the whole- they are sick to death of the abortion issue- the gay marriage issue- the anger- the petty political attacks- the constant bickering. They have been moved to vomit by the ongoing scandals of bribery and corruption- and they will be an electorate that will not easily believe any politician.
Underneath all of that, they will still be hopelessly divided. They will still wear blue shirts and red shirts and take their pot shots at one another.
It will, I suspect, be a VERY difficult political environment.
Moreover- whoever wins in 08- will face one of the toughest presidencies in modern times. The times will call for sacrafice- and that is an unpopular word. Raising taxes will be necessary- and that will inflame the electorate. The medical system will require major surgery- and that will draw powerful forces together on a collission course.
Whoever wins will not have an easy time of it- and a one term presidency is the most likely outcome..
Real meaningful political change will probably wait until 2012-
rwcole |
02.25.06 - 2:54 pm | #
Sorry guys, but we're missing the larger picture too. Fact is, the Iraqi's cannot form a government until we leave. Iraq is censored from the American public but we know this one fact for absolute certain. BushCo is prpping up a bunch of corrupt and incompetent Iraqi exiles whom the Iraqi people have twice rejected at the ballot. Chalabi is still Minister of Oil. Others from the neocon think tanks and yes, undoubtedly Perle are the puppeteers. Fact it, the Iraqi people know it, know who these criminals are, and don't want them there. Not Sunni, Shia, or Kurds. The face of this corruption rides around in Humvees and wears the uniform of the US military. If a government were to actually form, their first act would be to ask us to exit, stage left. Thus, we are preventing the formation of a government and BushCo will, I repeat will sacrifice every soldier currently serving in Iraq rather than deviate one whit from his untenable, impossible, losing, losing, lost strategy called "stay the course".
nlacey |
02.25.06 - 2:55 pm | #
"Mad Wmd Mad Wmd World"?
look for the hidden weapons undet the big W!
nlacey: I interpret your comments as saying the permanent bases and progress on self-determination and democracy do not mix in Iraq. Is that right?
I am sad at news of Don Knotts' death. He would have been wonderful in a movie on the Bush administration. I think he would have made a wonderful Rummy. Johathan Winters as Cheney. Something for Zero Mostel, but can't think of what. Who could do justice to the whole sick crew playing BushCo today in a film?
anon_1 |
02.25.06 - 3:02 pm | #
anon_1: thank you, and Will, for Henry V--somehow it helps in these awful times.
off thread/on thread--anybody, anywhere know about Jill Carroll?
mmouse |
02.25.06 - 3:04 pm | #
Alvord @ 02.25.06 - 2:39 pm -- I disagree with Fukuyama, at least to the extent that democracy isn't wanted in Iraq. I think that most people there probably do want it; they just don't know how to get it. The neocons, as usual, can't even define the problem properly.
Saying we'll give them a constitution and a year to build an effective democratic government while we guard their buildings is a bit like saying to someone "There's the concrete and the uranium, and here are the blueprints. Go build yourself a nuclear reactor." Knowledge and experience are important, and Iraq had neither when it came to running a democracy. They had, for at least one generation if not longer, been robbed of potential leaders by their rulers, who didn't want any effective opposition. In contrast, we had almost a century of experience with democracy prior to the Revolutionary War, and there are days I wonder if we'll ever get it right.
Critics who say that the Bush plan for Iraq was for it to break up have a point. Difficult as it is to believe, it's a hypothesis that fits the facts.
Cujo359 |
02.25.06 - 3:07 pm | #
jurassicpork | Homepage | 02.25.06 - 2:44 pm |
Thanks a lot for the Watching America link.
John Casper |
02.25.06 - 3:09 pm | #
john casper thanks for your kind comment I've just finished part one of a set of postings about the bombing. This one sets the scene and points out the role of black ops in Iraq.
Ultimately - i don't beleive it was an islamist group - but it'll take me a while to get all the links translate stuff etc.
I don't believe it was any islamist group.
markfromireland |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 3:09 pm | #
emptywheel | Homepage | 02.25.06 - 12:32 pm | #
????????????
That is very odd. DO you think that Woodward was given cooked to order docs - all neat and such so he could read them - instead of Libby's real scrawls?
I have horrible handwriting (but I swear I have never written a book about bears and little girls in cages) and some days I can make it legible, but never, even with lots of effort, do I produce lots of neat orderly scribbles.
BTW on the PlamePlayers trivia I have picked up here, you guys don't really think it is that "odd" for someone to go a long period of time without their oven hooked up, do you? I think I went about 6 years or so without even something to fill the hole when I bought my last house - left it like that until I got ready to sell and re-worked the kitchen a little. I know at least two other people (yes, both lawyers) who did pretty much the same thing.
I refuse to accept rangelack as evidence of any quirkiness.
Mary |
02.25.06 - 3:09 pm | #
Some last throes. When the mission accomplished banner was hanging off the side of Lincoln, I guess I missed the significance of the civil war theme.
nerosviolin |
02.25.06 - 3:10 pm | #
Re: Cujo359 @ 02.25.06 - 3:07 pm -- I'll just add that the hypothesis "the neocons are just the stupidest fucking people on earth" also fits the facts.
Cujo359 |
02.25.06 - 3:16 pm | #
anon_1 | 02.25.06 - 2:52 pm |
Thanks (and to anyone else that flagged me on this). I need to "educate" my Repub friends about Shrub's "bad science" and this will help.
sonate |
02.25.06 - 3:18 pm | #
rwcole @ 02.25.06 - 2:54 pm -- One thing's clear - the next few years are gonna suck no matter who's in control. I'd rather have someone in control who is actually intellectually and morally capable of controlling them.
Cujo359 |
02.25.06 - 3:18 pm | #
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED
having a good weekend chimpy?
spacecowboy155 |
02.25.06 - 3:19 pm | #
OT:
CNN "Just In:"
Compromise on Port Deal Being Worked Out by GOP Leaders; Deal To Go Through After 45-Day 'Investigation'
---
CityGirl |
02.25.06 - 3:19 pm | #
OT from previous thread:
we do have probably more than enough oil reserves left to make the transition fairly smoothly, but only IF WE GET ON WITH IT NOW.
Yeah my worry is we transition to COAL.
(We're actually in much better shape on energy than we are on food, soil, and -- especially -- water issues....
Mrs. Robinson | 02.25.06 - 1:37 pm | #
Funny, I read yesterday that SE England has less water per capita than Saudi Arabia. Jared Diamond says Wyoming is heading for ecological collapse because of overpopulation relative to water (and pollution from mining). Etc.
Someone who used to work High Up in govt told me once that the US would go to war over water in the next 20 years. Now last time I looked, Mexico was not well known for its water resources.....
Taylor |
02.25.06 - 3:23 pm | #
Here's a little story that will hopefully make a few peole in our government lose some sleep. Afghan's old spy chief, from the Soviet days --- now sentenced to death.
"The government at the time was like a machine and I was just a part of the machine," Sarwari, 64, wearing glasses and sporting a graying beard, told the court.
The New Yorker piece about Mora - closes with his obersvations that those making the decisions were so little concerned or affected with the enormity (on torture and killing of prisoners) of their positions. As if, he reflected, they had never been exposed to history. To people being held - years and even decades later, to account.
Back once more to my vent from last night, I will probably re-post this from time to time until Jane and RH make me stop.
Haynes - the man who almost singlehandedly overrode the concerns and questions from the general counsel to various branches of the armed services, is NOW right this minute, NOW nominated for the Court of Appeals.
Lifetime appointment.
Read Mora's memo, read the New Yorker story, and read how quickly Rumsfeld turned to Haynes as *the guy* the go to guy, to get (cook?) the info on Hussein in the immed aftermath of the WTC.
Cambone and Haynes, too, are the two guys in the meeting noted at towards the end of the Mora article - the meeting that took place just a few months back apparently, a room full of military lawyers and counsel and all wanting to return our army to the high ground, application of conventions and treaties and USCMJ, and two guys said no. Haynes and Cambone as I recall.
They argued, in large part, that we would be making "our people" subject to the possiblity of application of the War Crimes Act, if we decided to engage in humane prisoner treatment as our new path.
Haynes - soon to have his lifetime appointment to the COurt of Appeals.
When all this neo-con farce is put to rest, we must ensure it's dead for good. Otherwise, the energetic and younger members of the current cabal will return in the third decade of this century with some "new" concept of Executive power and warmaking capability as well as some "new" paradigm for world domination. Yup, just like the youngest chief of staff in the White House (Cheney) and the youngest Defense Secretary (Rumsfeld) returned to visit this current hell upon us.
The US will require a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to get us through the collapse of the neo-con vision, peak oil, and shrinking US influence in the world. We'll need some serious navel-gazing and some serious war-crimes trials to ensure the youngsters in this bunch (Card, Rice, et.al.) don't return with some grand plan for war with China -- or India -- in 2025.
-
TeddySanFran |
02.25.06 - 3:27 pm | #
We are headed for difficult and frightening times- a perfect period for a demagogue.
rwcole |
02.25.06 - 3:28 pm | #
Card a youngster--wow- I feel younger already!
rwcole |
02.25.06 - 3:29 pm | #
Taylor | 02.25.06 - 3:23 pm Someone who used to work High Up in govt told me once that the US would go to war over water in the next 20 years. Now last time I looked, Mexico was not well known for its water resources.....
Or did he mean we'll be at war with ourselves? Every time I read about our water policies in the southwest it just sounds like a civil war waiting to happen. We've already used up all of the Colorado river (its mouth in Mexico is usually nor more than a trickle), so it's now a question of how we divvy it up. Much of the agriculture in California wouldn't be possible without irrigation from the Colorado, and the way the water rights work you either use all the water you're entitled to or you lose it.
Last I heard, there were no serious attempts to fix all this.
Cujo359 |
02.25.06 - 3:32 pm | #
punaise - I believe :b is the universal symbol for sticking my tongue out and making obscene gestures.
Or it could be a colon and a b.
Mary |
02.25.06 - 3:32 pm | #
The New Yorker piece about Mora - closes with his obersvations that those making the decisions were so little concerned or affected with the enormity (on torture and killing of prisoners) of their positions. As if, he reflected, they had never been exposed to history. To people being held - years and even decades later, to account.
Mary | 02.25.06 - 3:24 pm | #
that article was stunning. it illustrated how a couple of morally corrupt loose cannons can override good people trying to do the right thing. the mildness of my wording here does not match the sense of outrage upon reading it.
finally receive the recent Harper's mag - can finally dig into Lewis Laphams's case for Chimpeachment.
punaise |
02.25.06 - 3:34 pm | #
Mary | 02.25.06 - 3:24 pm | #
it's what happens when you decide that an intellectual problem is more important than a human life.
markfromireland |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 3:36 pm | #
Whether or not Clusterfuck is impeached- he will leave office disgraced.
Assuming that he has a left nut- he would give it gladly for a positive change in Iraq- but alas- that is beyond his grasp.
rwcole |
02.25.06 - 3:37 pm | #
I believe :b is the universal symbol for sticking my tongue out and making obscene gestures.
Mary | 02.25.06 - 3:32 pm | #
don't forget thumbs in ears, wagging all fingers.
heh :-)
punaise |
02.25.06 - 3:37 pm | #
Assuming that he has a left nut- he would give it gladly for a positive change in Iraq- but alas- that is beyond his grasp.
rwcole | 02.25.06 - 3:37 pm | #
chimps have long arms - I bet he can grasp his left nut just fine.
punaise |
02.25.06 - 3:39 pm | #
especially as a huge part of the population irrespective of whether they're shia or sunni believe that Samarra lies at America's door RW.
markfromireland |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 3:39 pm | #
Back threads - ports.
About the first graph:
I wonder if other operators are allowed to store documents offshore (not available to subpoena, etc)
That last graph could be because the 'Co.' was so newly minted...a shell, so to speak.
There's some doubletalk here, in the best NewSpeak tradition.
blank kludge | 02.25.06 - 9:17 am | #
THose were almost my words and thoughts Master Psychic Kludge. You are not hearing much about the port authority lawsuit, but I just don't see how they don't have a pretty strong case if they have standard consent rights in their docs. That could get interesting.
Libby Case - Tracy | 02.25.06 - 9:03 am | # Yes Tracy, I do think that he is going to be limited on the evidence re: motive he can offer with this approach, but it still seems, IMO, to be the cleanest way to go.
Mary |
02.25.06 - 3:40 pm | #
" Someone who used to work High Up in govt told me once that the US would go to war over water in the next 20 years. Now last time I looked, Mexico was not well known for its water resources....."
Taylor | 02.25.06 - 3:23 pm |
This Canadian doesn't think it will take 20 years.
jlr |
02.25.06 - 3:42 pm | #
mad props?
punaise | 02.25.06 - 3:10 pm
That's what I meant :)
off to play my bass, see y'all in the wee hours
Sharkbabe |
02.25.06 - 3:43 pm | #
slowed down by flu here but reading along ... I am worried by references to "we'll need to stay to avoid Rwanda" and to comments about getting rid of the neocons as a solution .
nothing will change until we as americans give up the vile belief that somehow we have the right to control, lead, guide, oppress the peoples of the world to suit our current greeds or needs or even simply our sense of goodness whether it's spreading democracy or searching for wmds, it is not our place to be the sole arbiters of righteousness
and in fact, given our history of brutal repression throughout the world and here at home, we should instead be begging for mercy and perhaps an intervention for our own good from more civilized powers
siun |
02.25.06 - 3:43 pm | #
"It is often said that the people get the kind of government they deserve--meaning that in the final analysis the people can control the course of government if they care enough to do it." -Archibald Cox
I'm afraid the tin can will be tied to the tail as much to the American people as a whole rather than to Bush and the neocons.
sonofslothrop |
02.25.06 - 3:47 pm | #
Mark - I wish I even felt it was that much of a detached (from its enormity), but logic formatted decision.
What makes me more concerned is that it seems so detached (from its enormity)- but driven from self interest and driven by desires for political/power gain.
That are now paying off.
I do notice, however, that his "recommendations" are from 2003.
I know nothing about the nominations process, but ?????????
Are they from his prior appointments or is there someone sitting on his nomination like a lead weight?
People act like this wasn't the plan in the first place. Arthur, linked by C&L from time to time called it a long time ago. The current state of chaos in Iraq is the goal. Just as it was the goal in Yugoslavia.
Divide and conquer. Break the target state into warring factions and set them at each others throats. All the better to rule them. And if they don't co-operate in this... well you send in CIA death squads or "British SAS troops Disguised as Iraqis" to instigate sectarian violence until it has enough momentum on it's own.
Next stop: Iran and Syria. Iraq, after all, was just "proof of concept".
brenda |
02.25.06 - 3:48 pm | #
Why anyone would continue to take the media seriously after the past 4 years is really beyond me. There is nothing special about these people. They are, at their best, moderately intelligent people. They seem to believe everything they are told by those in authority. Most of them are more concerned about getting a top-paying job and ratings than they are about news. I really don't think that they have a real understanding of investigative journalism. Their idea of balance is to present the Administrations talking points, with perhaps a dissenting opinion thrown in. They have been manipulated like little puppets since 9/11 and they really still haven't caught on.
steve expat |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 3:48 pm | #
My off-topic comments are prompted by info I just now read on www.thesmokinggun.com:
I thought earlier reports said Whittington *didn't* find the second bird -- but in this report, the guy hollered out and told him it was found. So how does that reconcile with Harry leaving the vehicle to go look for it? (I think it sounds like Whittington was walking from the vehicle when he was shot -- but that might be inconvenient when it comes to matching the official story because, if he was returning from the vehicle, he probably wouldn't have been coming up from lower ground.) http://www.thesmokinggun.com/
arc...061cheney8.html
Liberal Heart |
02.25.06 - 3:49 pm | #
.. worried by ...comments about getting rid of the neocons as a solution .
siun | 02.25.06 - 3:43 pm | #
from my perspective, "getting rid" of the neo-cons means making sure they're sufficiently disgraced so that they and their policies never come back to haunt us. naive, perhaps, given their grip on power.
I wholeheartedly agree with your overall thesis. get well soon...
punaise |
02.25.06 - 3:49 pm | #
Mary,
If you're the new herrenvolk, a member of the aristoi, then you'll apply you're formiddable intelligence in that way.
They truly do not care care. they beleive that not only are they right morally, intellectually, ethically, but that doing as they do will ultimately serve the greatest good of the greatest number.
That is why they're so frightening, and a word I rarely use, evil.
markfromireland |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 3:52 pm | #
"We are headed for difficult and frightening times- a perfect period for a demagogue.
rwcole | 02.25.06 - 3:28 pm
As you may have read somewhere, there was a neo-Nazi rally in Orlando today. I think there was 11 of the brown shirts doing their best nazi impersonations. Although the Orlando Sentinel says 100 counter demonstrators (17 arrests, mostly anarchists types), there has to have been far more than that.
As much or more than the brownshirters, I fear many of the police who seem to be so hyped up on Bush's war. Maybe the military type riot gear psyched them up but it really brought home the fact that we are so close to a military state now.
keith in Orlando |
02.25.06 - 3:54 pm | #
From down threads again.
Doran | 02.25.06 - 8:50 am | #
Assuming the presiding judge here is not tied to the Bush Personality Cult,
He's a Republican appointee, but so are lots. OTOH, he's the judge that ended up with the Sibel Edmonds gag order case under Ashcroft and when some of he 9/11 families filed suit to get access to some of her info, their case got assigned to him as well. He was very ready to enforce Ashcroft's retroactive designation of State's Secrets and whether that was due to personal ties or ideology, ??
BTW - Doran is a family name in my family and it is so uncommon that it makes to do a double take every time I see it here. My father and a brother were/are Dorans.
Mary |
02.25.06 - 3:54 pm | #
"nothing will change until we as americans give up the vile belief that somehow we have the right to control, lead, guide, oppress the peoples of the world to suit our current greeds or needs or even simply our sense of goodness whether it's spreading democracy or searching for wmds, it is not our place to be the sole arbiters of righteousness"
Amen Siun - an earlier generation of Americans fought for freedom and to abolish empires. For the US to act like an empire now prostitutes everythnig good anddecent about what is still the last best hope.
Never give up - and get well soon
markfromireland |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 3:55 pm | #
It troubles me a great deal that news shows continue to trot out Richard Perle, Charles Krauthammer, William Kristol and other neoconservative freaks for analysis.
These people have been consistently wrong in nearly every aspect of the Iraq war, the hunt for al Qaeda and the calls for 'democratization' of the Middle East.
They've damaged our standing in the world. They've strained our military to near the breaking point.
At this point you'd think they'd be considered the foreign-policy equivalant of David Duke, someone with whom no journalist would consort. When I was a reporter, if you had a source who consistently lied, or was consistently wrong, you shut them out, period. You owe it to your readers or viewers to filter out the horseshit.
It turned my stomach when Russert used a quote from William Kristol as a springboard to discuss coverage of the Cheney shooting. Kristol's an ideologue with zero credibility in the real world outside the beltway.
The Dawg |
02.25.06 - 3:56 pm | #
"Doran" - a by no means unusual family name in ireland Mary - especially in the Gaelic speaking parts where my dad came from and did my earliest growing up.
markfromireland |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 3:56 pm | #
Mr. Pollack is married to Andrea Koppell-- Ted's daughter-- just before he stopped telling the truth re our USA
angie |
02.25.06 - 3:57 pm | #
Mary | 02.25.06 - 3:24 pm Final word - can any of you decipher what the heck this note of Cambones that was released says?
Looks like ...
DCI Rtrnd Call
UBL In Ycp operation Herd "Heard good news"
3rd lft lift to coni?
Italics mean "crossed out".
"DCI" is probably "Director, Central Intelligence" - George Tenet at the time.
"UBL" is a common abbreviation of Osama (Usama) Bin Laden.
I'm not too sure about the second or fourth line. The second makes no sense to me, and the fourth line seems to be referring to some sort of airlift operation, but who knows?
Cujo359 |
02.25.06 - 3:58 pm | #
it is not our place to be the sole arbiters of righteousness
nice pre-war sentiment. but when innocents are being systematically killed should we turn away? what if it starts next week? are we just going to run when death squads in pickup trucks start roaming baghdad?
what we really need to do is start sincerely thinking about the best interests of the iraqi people who are doomed to suffer in the power vaccum and instability we have created. i have no idea what specifically to do, but anything that begins with 'america's best interests' is doomed to fail. it's not about us anymore...
travy |
02.25.06 - 4:04 pm | #
Andrea Koppel-- too many lllllllllllllls sorry folks.
angie |
02.25.06 - 4:06 pm | #
rwcole:
Perle was up to his eyeballs in the Hollinger investigation; that's part of why he disappeared from view; also, of course, he was officially removed from the Defense Policy Review Board (not sure I remember the name correctly but I believe he headed it and also still continued, um, advising it.
Also, your demogogue statement is chilling, but right on the money. As it were.
Mary:
The problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them. WHAT A MOTTO!
nlacey:
I agree totally: the best thing we can do for Iraq is get out, and then figure out how to ensure that our money actually fixes everything we've broken over there. They are intelligent, resourceful people and quite capable of governing themselves if we just leave them alone and fix their damned infrastructure.
markfromireland:
I posted a pretty good link w/eyewitness reports earlier in this thread but I guess didn't describe it so no one saw it. Let me try again: http://www.uruknet.info/?s1=1&p=...1&p=20924&
s2=24, . Have got some pretty good friends in that neck of the woods (not Iraq, but Jordan, Lebanon and Israel, and they tend to send some pretty decent postings. The look on that Sunni cleric's face is worth 1000 words, if not more.
And yes, evil would be accurate.
brenda:
divide, conquer, break and ruin every country in the Middle East save one.
dannyboy |
02.25.06 - 4:07 pm | #
my take:
DCI Returnd Call (per Cujo)
UBL intercept known operation
"Heard good news"
3rd lift to come
re line 3: in the "chatter" wasn't there a signal amongst the hijackers concerning some "good news"?
nice pre-war sentiment. but when innocents are being systematically killed should we turn away? what if it starts next week? are we just going to run when death squads in pickup trucks start roaming baghdad?
travy i'n going to say this just once. your country is directly respsonsible for most killing most of the iraqis who've died. They were killed by Americans. not jihadis they were killed by American troops, sailors, and Airforce personnell dropping bombs.
Eff off home and stay there.
markfromireland |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 4:11 pm | #
still downthreading
The emails.
I find them very interesting from the standpoint of what might be the relationship between the Special Prosecutor and the NOW AG with respect to those puppies.
The Jan letter to counsel said:
“In an abundance of caution,” Fitzgerald's January 23 letter to Libby's defense team states, “we advise you that we have learned that not all email of the Office of the Vice President and the Executive Office of the President for certain time periods in 2003 was preserved through the normal archiving process on the White House computer system.”
No mention of anything except that they were "not archived".
The truthout article, though, if it can be relied upon, says:
Sources close to the case said that Attorney General Alberto Gonzales withheld numerous emails from Fitzgerald’s probe citing “executive privilege” and “national security” concerns. These sources said that as of Friday there are still some emails that have not been turned over to Fitzgerald because they contain classified information in addition to references about the Wilsons
Now think about this. Fitzgerald is aware of the emails. BUt he never mentions that he is not handing them over because they were never given to him due to a claim of privilege of any sort. Just that they were "not archived."
Now we hear that some, if not all, ARE turning up. And suddenly they are turned over - what happened to the claim of privilege? Was it ever made? If so, why didn't Fitzgerald mention it to counsel - docs have not been produced due to a claim of privilege, etc.?
This aspect really fascinates me. At the time the emails were being produced, Gonzales was the White House counsel, not the AG. Was he the right one to claim Executive privilege? Especially for docs that may have been between persons other than the President?
I admit - I have no clue. I dont' really understand the interplay between WHC or PResident's Counsel and AG with respect to claims of Exec Privilege. I have to think that the President himself or the AG should have been the one to place docs on hold for "national security" concerns.
In any event, does it not sound as if they may have really thought the Prosecutor didn't know about the emails? Then, on getting the clue that he did - suddenly they show up with them and say, "uh, sorry dude, we thought you didn't need these cuz they were, ya know, privilege kinda stuff, but, uh, well, like, if you know about them anyway - here take 'em"
Very weird IMO. Very.
I know that some of your dearest wishes might revolve around the VP and/or even the P, but mine revolve around the AG and that is probably why I am seeing this a little skewed.
But WTH is he doing, as WHC, holding back docs in an investigation and not even saying they are being held under a claim of privilege?
What do you think THAT would have done immed pre-election? Hundreds of WH emails relating to V. Plame - But WH Refuses to Release them and Claims Privilege?
Except they don't, do they? As soon as the ink is formed to letters in the press - suddenly here the emails are.
If Gonzales was sitting on them all this time --- ??????????
I don't really hold out much hope anymore that Fitzgerald will be able to do more than make them all have to don a Nixon mask and say, "I am not a crook" but even that would be - something.
Mary |
02.25.06 - 4:11 pm | #
Dannnyboy - thanks. I didn't get it here but did get it elsewhere. I vist uruknet regularly. There is good info there but don't forget there's a lot of propaganda too.
markfromireland |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 4:12 pm | #
Atwar Bahjat, with two other colleagues. Atwar gave the last live dispatch to Al-Arabiya Television at 1500 gmt yesterday. Atwar disappeared after that. The Iraqi Police today confirmed that she and two other colleagues were assassinated in Samarra...
....
Jill Carroll is a UMass/Amherst alum. As am I, although I'm a bit ahead, timewise. Her story is coverred probable more intensely here in WMass. Local paper/TV. She hasn't gotten any coverge that I know of lately. Will Google News search...
-------
Don Knotts....was not cast in 'Catch-22'
but that captures the insanity/greed etc of this folly/atrocity.
signed-- M.P. blank kludge (the 'blank' is inspired by MaxHeadroom; 'kludge' is self-explanatory.)
How did Betty Davis put it: "Fasten your seat belts, it's gonna be a bumpy ride."
Hope we all come out of it alive.
Anybody ever read "Canticle for Leibowitz"?
"the Judah Sheep"
me to me |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 4:13 pm | #
dannyboy and markfromireland--
Thanks for the link to uruknet. That is it in a nutshell. help. sorrow.
angie |
02.25.06 - 4:14 pm | #
"Doran" - a by no means unusual family name in ireland Mary - especially in the Gaelic speaking parts where my dad came from and did my earliest growing up.
markfromireland | Homepage | 02.25.06 - 3:56 pm | #
Really? Well, I have never done any geneaology but since I have red-headed siblings and red-heads on both side of the family and down chart from me, and since I do know that my West Va. roots are related to both the Hatfields and the McCoys, it may be some Irish connection ??
I never even thought of that. In Indiana and KY, you just never see it.
“Yes Tracy, I do think that he is going to be limited on the evidence re: motive”
Thanks for your reply, Mary. I guess it would be a lot cleaner case if Fitz omitted reference to Plame’s undercover status because it would avoid Libby’s attempted greymail. Although Libby’s fear of the penalty for outing Plame would be a motive for him to lie to the FBI and the grand jury, I have to say from reading the indictment that with or without evidence of a motive, Libby’s excuse – I forgot I knew about it before I heard about it from reporters – seems very lame since he spoke to several people about her status shortly before he spoke to the reporters.
Tracy |
02.25.06 - 4:15 pm | #
The real ruler of Iran is Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, not Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
Joe Buck | 02.25.06 - 2:04 pm | #
Travy - we are the ones who recruited and established the death squads - it's part of the US strategy in Iraq just as is torture and killings of prisoners.
We are the criminals here, not some showdowy other force ... us, america, all those nice liberal dems who voted for the war and who did not squawk when torture and rendition and guantanamo were added to the public toolkit (it's long been in our secret one), you and me via our tax dollars and inability to stop them
the sooner we leave, the sooner there is any hope of recovery for the people of iraq
sorry for tone but this freaks me out and is the argument I hear over and over from liberal congress - oh, gosh, we can't leave now! we haven't brought democracy and all that yummy stuff to the poor iraqis -- hogwash! as if we were there to do anything other than the pillage and plunder of their resources -
google "el salvador option" google negroponte's background google School of the Americas ... then tell me about my "nice pre-war sentiments" and how we're going to protect the people of iraq
siun |
02.25.06 - 4:17 pm | #
blank kludge:
picking up on our Bowie exchange a few threads back, re-posting from "Young Americans":
"it took him minutes. it took us nowhere."
punaise |
02.25.06 - 4:17 pm | #
Omigosh, I did NOT mean in any way to imply that that Sunni cleric was evil.
I meant we are.
And not just the actions of the Bush administration, either. After all is said and done, our tax dollars are still helping fund these horrors I deeply pity our troops as well as the entire Iraqi population, and just cringe when I think about any of it.
No Muslim is going to firebomb a mosque -- but I still cannot really get my mind around anyone who can desecrate anyone else's house of worship, let alone a place as deeply spiritual, tranquil and central to a people's faith, as that one.
That was evil, alright, and I'd put my money on some special contractors, either American or Israeli.
dannyboy |
02.25.06 - 4:17 pm | #
markfromireland- easy mate. not arguing it's not america's fault. but, the question i've been asking all day is if the situation has gotten so bad that we have no choice but to stay.
it's unfortunate that avoiding-genocide has been a rightwing talking point for staying the course since things turned sour, but the reality is that things have changed and perhaps pulling out is worse.
i've been pull-out-now for a long time, but recent events are changing my mind. empathize for a moment and put yourself in an iraqi's shoes when the deathsquads come to your house. wouldn't you want a soldier with a machine gun to protect you no matter where he's from?
things are getting more complicated...
travy |
02.25.06 - 4:20 pm | #
Mark - that was supposed to be "Now I'm wondering"
dannyboy- I just realized I didn't put an attribution with that quote - It is from Einstein. It is a great quote, but not mine.
Mary |
02.25.06 - 4:20 pm | #
Anybody ever read "Canticle for Leibowitz"?
blank kludge | 02.25.06 - 4:13 pm | #
Great, great book.
Taylor |
02.25.06 - 4:20 pm | #
punaise @ 02.25.06 - 4:10 pm -- Wonder if, instead of "known" in line two, it's some proper name. "Kumar" sort of fits, or it could be some nonsensical code name to identify an operation. Agree the fourth line still makes no sense.
Our public official really need handwriting lessons.
Cujo359 |
02.25.06 - 4:21 pm | #
"People act like this wasn't the plan in the first place. Arthur, linked by C&L from time to time called it a long time ago. The current state of chaos in Iraq is the goal. Just as it was the goal in Yugoslavia.
Divide and conquer. Break the target state into warring factions and set them at each others throats. All the better to rule them. And if they don't co-operate in this... well you send in CIA death squads or "British SAS troops Disguised as Iraqis" to instigate sectarian violence until it has enough momentum on it's own.
Next stop: Iran and Syria. Iraq, after all, was just "proof of concept".
brenda | 02.25.06 - 3:48 pm | #
I'm with you, Brenda. And this bears repeating
Griffon |
02.25.06 - 4:22 pm | #
"UBL In Ycp R..r operation"
or... UBL in Yemen Cole port operation?
Cozumel |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 4:23 pm | #
or travy click my homepage i'm starting to write about samarra and who did it.
The evidence is AGAINST it having been done by an islamist group. I'm going to present that evidence or the next week.
or go to my other blog and read the last three postings.
The one about Afghanistan is from my son who is serving there right now.
The US is under the control of an authoritarian and frankly racist government. You've fucked it up so badly that for every day the US stays she murders more.
Leave - you're the problem - you're not the solution - you never were - not in the muslim world - leave. Every daay you stay saying "oh those sand niggers will slaughter each other if we civilised people don't stop them" you make the slaughter more likely and worse.
leave. The US is the problem she's forfeited the right to be part of the solution.
markfromireland |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 4:23 pm | #
"brenda:
divide, conquer, break and ruin every country in the Middle East save one.
dannyboy | 02.25.06 - 4:07 pm | # "
siun- what little i am seeing is that there is a power struggle going on in iraq and they don't give a shit about us. they know we will leave and they are prepping for the aftermath. i know i'm parroting right wing talking points that we've all been hearing for a year, but the reality of the situation is becoming more apparent. when we leave, the militias take over.
travy |
02.25.06 - 4:25 pm | #
the Golden Mosque was not merely firebombed - it was a very professional and methodical demolition explosion. the guards were not quickly overwhelmed and executed but 'humanely' tied up and incapacitated while the attackers systematically placed explosives to destroy the very symbolic 'Golden Dome' structure.
Wilson46201 |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 4:26 pm | #
Cozumel @ 02.25.06 -- I find it hard to imagine anyone would write "port" that way, but the rest fits as well as anything we've come up with.
Cujo359 |
02.25.06 - 4:27 pm | #
Travy you empathise with them - you've propped up a dictator and his death squads you starved them for a decade you destroyed their society - you treat them as less than dirt in their own land - you murder, you torture, you rape you loot and you tell me to empathise with
markfromireland |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 4:28 pm | #
Okay, let me rephrase it this way. The Iraqi people are truly our brothers. Like us, they are the victims of a corrupt and incompetent government courtesy of the neocons. Like us, they are bombarded with propaganda telling them that the US is "good" and all about self-determination, democracy, etc. when the reality on the ground points to a level of ripoff and incompetence fully equal to the Katrina debacle. Here's a challenge: Who can list five (5) ways that Iraq is like the US under BushCo?
nlacey |
02.25.06 - 4:29 pm | #
divide and conquer has always been part of the plan. riverbend wrote about the new reworked constitution and how there were provisions for atonomy in the different regions w/their own languages, banking, everything. the plan is to isloate the oil region and make sure it is run by US puppets. when ever the new constitution was ratified, or originally written,( last summer sometime?)she posted about it.
annie |
02.25.06 - 4:30 pm | #
They've already damn well taken over travy. They've taken over with american bloody help to take over what part of this do you not understand?
markfromireland |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 4:30 pm | #
right now , i think they are a worse off nlacey
annie |
02.25.06 - 4:31 pm | #
Wilson I was a bomb disposal officer - a good one too - i reckon around 12 hours to drill and place the charges.
markfromireland |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 4:31 pm | #
mark- i think part of what i'm saying is that the us starts trying to stop the violence because we obviously aren't doing anything now... it probably is too late for us to start policing iraq in a way that would save lives, but we need to get the ball rolling in the int'l community so someone can help.
i'm not being a racist by pointing out that iraqi's are killing each other. that's what happens in a power vaccum...
travy |
02.25.06 - 4:31 pm | #
MORE WA-PO BULLSHIT, THIS FROM AMERICABLOG:
THEY FRIGGIN CUT OUT THE ONLY TRUE THING THEY'VE EVER WRITTEN ABOUT BUSH:
Where's the Washington Post article with the charge that Bush's foreign policy is based on "geopolitical fantasy"?
by Joe in DC - 2/24/2006 10:15:00 PM
Earlier tonight, the Washington Post had a pretty blistering article on Bush's foreign policy speech today to the American Legion. There was no question from reading that piece that Bush really thinks things are going well with his foreign policy. And, it left no doubt that Bush's optimism is not widely shared. I started to write a post because I was struck by this passage:
Outlining what he called a "forward strategy for freedom," Bush painted a generally optimistic picture of events overseas that have led critics to charge that his foreign policy is built largely on geopolitical fantasy.(my emphasis, not the Post's)
I cut and pasted the paragraph above and started to write the post. But, when I went back to the Post to get the link, the article was gone. The link is now to another story that incorporates Bush's foreign policy speech today in to the Iraq debacle.
So, where's the "geopolitical fantasy" article that was critical of Bush? It was there at 8:30 p.m. But now, it's nowhere to be found. Can't find that term using the Post's search engine...and it doesn't show up on Google. I'm not making this up. I cut and pasted that paragraph from the Post..and now, it's gone. It's probably the most accurate line that has appeared in the Washington Post about Bush's foreign policy. The Post editorial board were ardent supporters of the Bush Iraq policy. So, I just think it's curious, to say the least.
tom -- chicago |
02.25.06 - 4:31 pm | #
so mark, take it a step farther; what happens when we leave tomorrow?
travy |
02.25.06 - 4:33 pm | #
i know i'm parroting right wing talking points that we've all been hearing for a year
you got that part right!
annie |
02.25.06 - 4:33 pm | #
TROLL
68.92.137.204
Kevin Mark Smith |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 4:34 pm | #
Cujo et al on the translation - thanks.
I still wonder a bit too. Part of it being shorthand ref to Yemen and Cole makes some sense, esp since the Rumsfeld crew was not really wanting to hear anything about al-Qaeda early on. DCI might have felt he had to "context" the UBL reference (you know, the guy who...) I still wonder a bit what it means - DCI telling them intel KNEW it was UBL operation (and yet Rumsfeld still wanting to get Haynes and PW (Wolfowitz I guess) on to putting together a way to sweep Hussein into it.
Makes that much more sense of the references later that seemed to stun Powell, when they were planning to go into Afghanistan and Rumsfeld was picking out Iraqi targets.
Mary |
02.25.06 - 4:36 pm | #
There will be a horrific slaughter travy - the longer you stay the worse it will be.
and i'm sorry travy i'm going to ignore you henceforth I'm through arguing with americans about this when they're being wilfully blind.
markfromireland |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 4:36 pm | #
punaise: ya got me. Need to look it up.
as for Jill Carroll:
Houston paper says a group of concerned J's is pleading for her release. Last contact from captore indicates clock runs out 2/26 Iraq time.
(BTW -- I keep in mind DoD is tasked w/planting 'news' from Iraq. Not necessarily J.Carroll, but any 'war' story.)
And my untrained eye leans towards the Black Ops explanation for the mosque dome. Looks like JUST THE DOME to me. Expert work.
mark- i can almost guarantee i am far to your left on most issues. you've pegged me wrongly, but things are bad and i think we need to pull ourselves out of the speculative debate we've been having for the last couple years about iraq and how bad it can get. it's that bad. now what?
travy |
02.25.06 - 4:39 pm | #
Ditto, what you said, markfromireland, US get out now, say you are sorry and pay the $. Enough is enough. We have done so much damage. We are no longer the leader of the free world. Reparations are one thing, continued killing is another thing altogether.
"out, out, damn spot"
angie |
02.25.06 - 4:40 pm | #
Travy - what you are demonstrating is your lack of knowledge - about Iraqi society, about the wishes of the Iraqi people and about the methods and tactics employed by the US as well as our history as the premiere trainers of torturers and death squad leadership.
Check our support for the Shah and Savak, check our use of the School of Americas to train the death squads of Latin America, look carefully at the photos from Abu Ghraib ...
then read Riverbend and other Iraqi bloggers ...
siun |
02.25.06 - 4:40 pm | #
travey's drinking kool aid, unless he's part of the machine
"The War Dept. is planning to insert itself into every area of the internet from blogs to chat rooms, from leftist web sites to editorial commentary. The objective is to challenge any tidbit of information that appears on the web that may counter the official narrative; the fairytale of benign American intervention to promote democracy and human rights across the planet.
The IOR aspires to "provide maximum control of the entire electromagnetic spectrum" and develop the capability to "disrupt or destroy the full spectrum of globally emerging communications systems, sensors, and weapons systems dependent on the electromagnetic spectrum".
I've said this several times- we never should have gone into Iraq, and I was opposed from the get go. And now, we should get out as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, a public withdrawal won't prevent our murderous government from continuing clandestine actions there, via backdoor alliances. I am no great expert on the ME, but having lived abroad, I have some idea about how even our "allies" view the US govt- generally with great suspicion- and that was even pre-Bush. Too many Americans are simply naive about the rest of the world.
-
Valley Girl |
02.25.06 - 4:44 pm | #
Record Deficits.
Illegal NSA Spying.
Katrina Bungling.
North Korea goes Nuclear.
Iran goes Nuclear.
Dubai Ports Deal.
Iraq's looming Civil War.
...and now we've lost Barney Fife?
Doomsday approaches.
Thank God we've still got George Bush.
cbear |
02.25.06 - 4:45 pm | #
i read riverbend and dahr jamail and do not debate the inherent evilness of our gov't throughout history. but what i see TODAY is a developing human rights disaster that will dwarf any political problem. i am heartbroken and want to stop the killing NOW and i don't know if immediate withdrawal is the answer...
travy |
02.25.06 - 4:46 pm | #
Actually Kevin Mark Smith if you'd bothered to check anyone here on FDL would tell you that I'm a conservative Catholic.
i'm by no stretch of the imagination the only conservative here either.
Now having fed the troll a nasty bitter lump of truth I'll stop paying attention to it.
markfromireland |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 4:46 pm | #
New thread from Jane: Reasons to Harp About Those Who Got It Wrong
Stephen Parrish, CPA |
02.25.06 - 4:48 pm | #
yeah annie, i'm a gov't plant... in fact, i'm a fucking robot sent to firedoglake to sew dissent....
travy |
02.25.06 - 4:48 pm | #
"recent developments suggest that the Bush administration may
already be contemplating what to do with Americans who are deemed
insufficiently loyal or who disseminate information that may be
considered helpful to the enemy.
Top U.S. officials have cited the need to challenge news that
undercuts Bush’s actions as a key front in defeating the terrorists,
who are aided by “news informers” in the words of Defense Secretary
Donald Rumsfeld."
The killing won't even remotely have a chance of being stopped while you're there travy. it's as simple as that you're the problem the one overriding problem all other problems are solvable by them you're the only ones who can solve that one though.
markfromireland |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 4:49 pm | #
Cujo359 | 02.25.06 - 4:05 pm
Here's my shot at deciphering it.
DCI Returned call
UBL Justice know operation
3rd s/t to condi?
Margot |
02.25.06 - 4:50 pm | #
let's just all pretend that the government is monitoring blogs, except for this one! it may not be you travey, but their watching!
annie |
02.25.06 - 4:50 pm | #
Disclaimer: I have no homepage, and never have had one, and pride myself on turning on the computer. I've read here very often, very thoroughly, and very appreciatively. My mistakes haunt me, it seems. Apologies to all.
They certainly visit mine and the new one is onlyup for a few days.
Pentagon and state - they stay for quite a long time too.
The same is true of nur's blog. Her one they stay for hours.
markfromireland |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 4:53 pm | #
mark- america was the original problem that destabilized the country and our presence continues to be a problem. but you are being willfully blind to the power struggle between sunnis and shiites that is now happening. my point is that we have a new problem to deal with and wiping our hands and saying sorry might not be the best solution even if it was not that long ago... capice?
travy |
02.25.06 - 4:55 pm | #
Annie - I agree that they are hanging about and will probably add little bits to try to tip the discussion but comments like Travey's are just the normal american liberalism rather than koolaid ... most dems are saying the same for example ... who needs disinfo and infiltrators when the "opposition" is so cooperative?
as I know you know annie ...
siun |
02.25.06 - 4:59 pm | #
Are we staying here or going upstairs? There have been govt. reports (sorry all I can remember) for quite a while that violence was increasing in Iraq, and linked to the US presence there. Sorry, I can't remember more details-- obviously this has not been publicized by Bushco.
-
Valley Girl |
02.25.06 - 5:02 pm | #
fuck off travy - you've never lived there I have you've never worked there i have you'll never live there i'm going back in a few weeks.
You're a stupidly blind fool with blood on your hands to hell with you.
thanks for the reminder siun, i get carried away sometimes
annie |
02.25.06 - 5:05 pm | #
markfromireland | Homepage | 02.25.06 - 5:05 pm
Still there? Did you read my view? I have a question for you, if you're still there.
Valley Girl |
02.25.06 - 5:06 pm | #
for the record, i've have been vehemently against this war since day one and have been for immediate withdrawal up until about two days ago. if you guys and gals can't see that things are changing dramatically with the mosque bombings and even entertain the thought that immediate pullout during escalating sectarian violence could be a bad thing, then it is you with a kool aid mustache...
travy |
02.25.06 - 5:07 pm | #
is not using punctuation and irish thing?
travy |
02.25.06 - 5:09 pm | #
blank kludge | 02.25.06 - 4:38 pm | #
snippets of Bowie lyrics
partially modifed towards the end:
They pulled in just behind the bridge
He lays her down, he frowns
"Gee my life's a funny thing, am I still too young?"
He kissed her then and there
She took his ring, took his babies
It took him minutes, took her nowhere
Heaven knows, she'd have taken anything, but...
...All the way from Washington
Her bread-winner begs off the bathroom floor
"We live for just these twenty years
Do we have to die for the fifty more?"...
Do you remember, your President Nixon?
Do you remember, the bills you have to pay
Or even yesterday?
Have you been an un-American?...
...You ain't a pimp and you ain't a hustler
A pimp's got a Cadi and a lady’s got a Chrysler
(A pimp's got a Condi and a lady’s got a Christ, her)
it took Bush minutes (to decide to go to war)
it took us (and Iraq) nowhere
punaise |
02.25.06 - 5:09 pm | #
... in fact, i'm a fucking robot sent to firedoglake to sew dissent....
travy | 02.25.06 - 4:48 pm | #
travy sewing with new thread?
punaise |
02.25.06 - 5:11 pm | #
thank you punaise. good one...
travy |
02.25.06 - 5:13 pm | #
i intimated this earler--
they are moslems. everywhere, everyday, people are oppressed. but a lot of them are being bombed. they married before and will again. they have lived together and had children. they knew how to get along long before we were a country. stop the madness. and the heck with the nsa! btw, lots are Semites, . And some are Aryans, too.
angie |
02.25.06 - 5:14 pm | #
I'd say "come on folks, can't we all just get along?", but that's probably too easy.
punaise |
02.25.06 - 5:16 pm | #
annie ... it's weird times and hard to tell the players without a scorecard, eh?
travy - you are in way over your head and all your "oooh, i'm so lefty" means nada if you do not re-examine your imperialist and racist notions... Mark has years of real world, on the ground, scars to show for it, experience in the ME and has a dear son in the region now (who is also one of our respected fellow posters) - you'd be wise to try to learn something from Mark's experience and blogs rather than lecturing him.
siun |
02.25.06 - 5:17 pm | #
Quoth Dannyboy:
"The problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them. WHAT A MOTTO!"
Indeed. The credo of professional futurists everywhere.
Take Taylor's concern about coal, f'rinstance. Coal (like nuclear power) has proven to be bad, nasty stuff.
Which isn't surprising, when you consider that that almost every technology humans have ever developed has turned out to be bad, nasty, inhumane, enviromentally degrading, and beset with problems we never anticipated -- in the first generation.
(We've been through this so often that a lot of people's first reaction to thinking about the future and technology is an instant wave of fear. The bone-deep dread that we're gonna find new ways to screw ourselves is, at this point, damned near instinctive.)
But that's only the first generation. Progress happens because, given time, we usually go back to the drawing board and produce a second generation that typically resolves about 75% of the problems, and often increases efficiency an order of magnitude in the process. This has happened so often in the course of industrial history that it's now considered something of a natural law of technology.
We're approaching that reconsideration point with both nukes and coal. The first generation has been lethally problematic; but, faced with a vanishing oil supply (and the enviromental costs of burning hydrocarbons, which we're only now beginning to reckon with), it's time to go back to the drawing board and re-think their potential. And the early answers are already showing strong promise -- including the promise of being more sustainable and much better for the environment than burning oil.
No solution is perfect. They all create their own problems. But we do tend to get better at this stuff with practice; and that's the hope that should sustain us as we look at the real problems we're going to have to solve once we get Bush out of the way.
Mrs. Robinson |
02.25.06 - 5:21 pm | #
mark is too busy telling me to "feck off" to impart any wisdom my way. and how am i a racist imperialist? i'm trying to be a realist at this sad late hour... no one else thinks the lid will blow off once we pull out? are the sunnis and shia going to put aside centuries of division just because the yanks are gone?
it seems you are the racist by saying pull out and let them kill each other off.
travy |
02.25.06 - 5:22 pm | #
i am not racist-- we had no right to do this and this spin of a civil war is a way to justify the mayhem and bloodshed we have perpetrated. i do not believe they will kill each other off. you must understand, "they" have not and will not kill each other off. WE destabilized the entire region. we instigated these horrors. time to go and pay our respects and money. not to Halliburton but to the people.
angie |
02.25.06 - 5:27 pm | #
and let us say I am sorry to the babies, pregnant mommies, hopeful daddies, and to the blood covered face of the mom that mfi linked to who was holding her son's shoes. i told my fiance on monday morning that if you ever get in trouble with the boss, just blame it on 9/11-- that is what the admin is doing. All this mess, blame it on something we did not see coming-- nope, not us, we support that ol' Taliban and oh by the way, Pakistan here you go, and mr. tallest man in Afghanistan, tear down that wall!. Damn.
Anonymous |
02.25.06 - 5:40 pm | #
oops, that was me ;) (
angie |
02.25.06 - 5:41 pm | #
" my point is that we have a new problem to deal with and wiping our hands and saying sorry might not be the best solution even if it was not that long ago... capice?"
its logic like this that really cracks me up. you think WE HAVE A PROBLEM TO DEAL WITH? how arrogant. why don't you let them decide what to do w/their own country.
imagine china invading to save us from our fascist leaders and after 1% of the population is dead, a few million, lets not forget barbarian torture and sexual exploits and the whole popularion is begging to them leave, and they say "we have such a problem w/they restless natives!"
why don't you give me an example of one bush/neocon policy that has run swimmingly? just one. or one example of us being told the truth.
you come here peddling your crazy neocon ptv, for what? to convert us? why don't you go converse w/people you agree with. i really don't think you'll have any takers here.
annie |
02.25.06 - 5:44 pm | #
I think mark's being a bit hard on you myself, Travy, I think you're being sincere -- but I don't agree with your fear about things getting WORSE if we leave.
They're horrendous now, and our presence isn't preventing anything from getting worse. Anyway, I wouldn't be at all surprised if a lot of these mosque bombings are false flag ops run by 'us' in the first place.
The US got into it for malign reasons, they're staying for malign reasons, and all there is to be gotten from it is death -- unless you've got an interest in the Carlyle group.
mercury |
02.25.06 - 5:45 pm | #
perhaps Mark is "being a bit hard" because it is not an abstract political problem for him or for his son but a lived experience
how nice to propose a "solution" for lives we will never live or lose
siun |
02.25.06 - 5:59 pm | #
I listened to the pundits on Fox last night, and came to the conclusion that no one could be THAT STUPID. Seriously, the only way they could say anything so stupid was that someone paid them to say it. Does that happen?
Kevin |
02.25.06 - 6:14 pm | #
siun | 02.25.06 - 5:59 pm
Siun, I don't know if you remember or not, but I sent an email to Du via you way back when there was a tragic death in the family. I can't find the email you sent back with your email address. But, if you still have mine, could you send me an email? I'd like to find a way to ask Mark some questions via email.
-
Valley Girl |
02.25.06 - 6:17 pm | #
This civil war brewing in Iraq, which many of its politicians blissfully don't even recognize ("Bush called and told us to cut the shit, and, praise be Allah! We are far from Civil War!"), will have the same effect, only a hundred-fold. It was obvious for years that Iraq was breaking up into sectarian violence that our troops were unable to quell and that they were inching closer and closer to civil war (Yeah, George, good job on the democracy thingie there. It's really taking root, I see).
Only, I thought it would be the conviction and likely execution of Saddam Hussein that would touch it off for good. I never stopped to consider that Iraq is a powder keg that could go up at any moment over, say, a Shia shrine getting bombed.
The problem with the administration is that they still haven't awoken from Paul Wolfowitz's wet dream that Iraq, having had a secular Ba'athist government, would similarly be a secular country. Until the Bushies come to grips with the fact that Iraq is a deeply religious Muslim nation, the sooner they can get a realistic grip on the situation and start to realize what a hopeless quagmire this war has truly turned into.
jurassicpork |
Homepage |
02.25.06 - 8:14 pm | #
When I first heard of the Golden Dome being destroyed, the Sunnis immediately being blamed and the resulting attacks against the Sunnis by enraged Shiites, I couldn't help but think that the bombing was an "inside" Shiite job.
The modus operandi, people showing up in uniforms, sounded like some of the right-wing Iraqi Interior Ministry's death squads. And, odds are that Iranian Hezbollah agents are embedded in the Interior Ministry and are hell-bent on settling scores with Sunni Baathists.
So, like the Reichstag fire-bombing by the Nazis, these Hezbollah agents (on orders from Teheran?) carried out the destruction of a very high-profile Shiite landmark.
Let the killing begin. And the Iranian leader then claims it was Zionists behind the mosque bombing. How convenient. Was he trying to plant in Iraqi Shiite minds a specious connection between the Iraqi Sunnis and Israel's Mossad? Well, who else would bomb an Iraqi Shiite holy site?
Surely not some Iranian-supported Shiites hell-bent on inciting a civil war in Iraq as a way of consolidating their power inside Iraq?
And of course, the Interior Ministry will probably be tasked with investigating the bombing. Perfect. Just like the Bush administration's Justice Department (and AG Abu Gonzales) charged with investigating the rampant corruption in the Bush administration.
Why do I get the feeling that the Interior Ministry with it's torture prisons and death squads will find some Sunni (after being tortured) who will "admit" to being involved in the Golden Dome bombing? While, of course, the real culprits in the Iraqi Interior Ministry get away scot-free?
And the U.S. military command will once again be left clueless.
The Oracle |
02.25.06 - 9:28 pm | #
I've been over reading Mark's posts on the Dome bombing at his new blog ... a lot of good info and it doesn't point to Iran, etc ...
we constantly forget how much disinfo we ingest ... the sectarian iraq bit for example has been a WH mantra for a long time but has not been highly present on the iraqi blogs which suggest a more tolerant popular culture ... just sayin'
we accept the disinfo that fits our prejudices and fears ... and reflects our expectations of a society which we have minimal knowledge of
siun |
02.25.06 - 10:30 pm | #
Hail Eris!
Perle: ... I don't believe we are on the edge of a civil war.
Iraq aside, you most definitely are.
Snarky
Pope Snarky Goodfella of the u |
Homepage |
02.26.06 - 10:25 pm | #
