This investigation is gonna unhinge the crazy ass racist bitch. Tillman's parents are in for some of the rightwingnuts Sheehan treatment.
moeman |
03.06.06 - 7:41 am | #
Sorry this went up a little later than usual, gang. I was so pissed off I had to take a walk around the block and come back before I could finish the article. Just when I think we've seen the lowest this Administration will go, I get confirmation that they, indeed, will sink even lower. Blergh.
ReddHedd |
Homepage |
03.06.06 - 7:45 am | #
it makes me sick..... literally.
liz |
03.06.06 - 7:46 am | #
Redd- great post--Tillman's blood awaits justification. The bastards who used his death for political purposes deserve to be fried for it- but what are the odds? Not good.
rwcole |
03.06.06 - 7:46 am | #
All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting. George Orwell
Several times in the past week the question has come up: was the King badly informed, OR actually lying?
Why choose? His job is to make the right decisions.
If he runs his ship in such a way that subordinates feel free to hide things from him, and he's not asking questions to get the right information, then he's a failure in making the right decisions.
If he's getting the information and then lying about it, he's a failure at making the right decisions.
The King has failed to do his job. How exactly this came to be is of interest as an educational moment for others who come after him. But it is of no interest as a political matter.
He failed to treat Tillman with honor. He failed to make the right call on Iraq. He failed to help New Orleans. He failed to uphold the fourth amendment. He failed to keep the name of a CIA counter-proliferation agent secret.
As far as accountability is concerned, these were his calls to make, and he failed.
No OR's about it.
Professor Foland |
03.06.06 - 7:48 am | #
What won't these people use? I mean, honestly -- is nothing at all sacred to them?
making political hay of the 3000 dead in NY, DC, and PA. should've been our first clue.
guess I'll go read the links - am sure a certain War Hero/Senator from Pat's home state has played his part in this tragic burlesque
cbl |
03.06.06 - 7:51 am | #
OT:
It's MOnday, so we must have another AdNags "Dems in Disarray" piece.
This time, the argument is that all our national candidates lack a coherrent, national message, since we have a smorgasborde of political targets to hit in the current environment.
This is another part of the DC dem establishment bashing Dean, as we saw over the weekend in the WaPo.
I think the variety of voices is a good thing, actually. Finally, we have an opportunity to build local candidates and parties without bigfoot DC interference.
Of course, some memes and campaign themes will work better than others. We are in a stage of development in the progressive movement that cries out for local experimentation, fresh thinking and innovation.
We can keep what works and run with it, but experimentation is necessary. Dean has been funding these incubators of talent and message making. Thank God.
If the DC dem consultants favored by AdNags were in charge, then I'd really be upset.
Rule of thumb: anything AdNags' sources think is bad news is really good news.
Pachacutec |
03.06.06 - 7:51 am | #
ReddHedd,
This is the way the "professional" military, lifer officer class works. You can ask any enlisted vet. The important question here, IMO, is how are folks gunna deal with this now. Is there gunna be outrage by people who placed pictures of Pat on their mantle next to the picture of"W" and is that outrage gunna be focused on the manipulation by the government.
Seems ta me that if the lyin' bastards in the government and military try and dump this on the incompetent press as well as the poor grunts who shot at their own, we will have the opportunity to see the press turn on the administration and open a window into the corrupt relationship between the administration and the press in the selling of this little war.
KEEP THE FAITH AND LET 'EM SHOOT EACH OTHER!!
NorskeFlamethrower |
03.06.06 - 7:53 am | #
RH - Thanks for puttin this up.
"You know, this war is so fucking illegal." - SPC Pat Tillman
Bush says seeking line-item veto power
gleex |
03.06.06 - 7:54 am | #
Also turns out Tillman was very much an outspoken critic of the Iraq war and an avid reader of Noam Chomsky. Don't see a lot of reporting on that in the MSM.
fish |
Homepage |
03.06.06 - 7:55 am | #
"What won't these people use? I mean, honestly -- is nothing at all sacred to them? "
Redd - the sad fact is that they will gladly use anything they can.
rusty |
03.06.06 - 7:56 am | #
Another great post, Redd. Thanks.
Here's a link to the line-item veto story. The Supreme Court declared that the line item veto was unconstitutional in 1998 because the constitution gives Congress ultimate spending authority. Par for the course...
was it mentioned that tilman volunteered for the war against the people that attacked us in afghansista and was AGAINST the war in Iraq?
me to me |
Homepage |
03.06.06 - 7:57 am | #
Distracting attention from his power grab and complete lack of support to give him "political capital" by....
trying to grab more power using political capital he does not have.
On topic:
The Tillman story really made me feel proud to be an American to know at least one person like him would stand up and reject the money and become a soldier (yes it is only one story). I felt shame that they pulled this psy-op on the American public when he fell in battle.
gleex |
03.06.06 - 7:57 am | #
Here's a better article on the line item veto story...
fish - someone on the Sunday gabfests mentioned Chomsky - as in Jafarri/Talabani (?) use him as sole reference in dealing w/ U.S.
cbl |
03.06.06 - 8:01 am | #
Also turns out Tillman was very much an outspoken critic of the Iraq war and an avid reader of Noam Chomsky.
Yup. Part of me keeps wondering if this subverted the ChimpCo narrative to the point where they decided to take him out...
jules |
03.06.06 - 8:01 am | #
I would love for this to be a real investigation, but I have to side with Mr. Tillman, "...an investigation about an investigation..." and so on.
The standing MO (demonstrated ala Abu Ghraib) is prosecute some underlings, promote the guys in charge, and pose for a righteous looking photo op.
You have posted a great list of questions that go right up and down the chain of command. (Which intrudes how far into the media?)
Who will speak for Pat Tillman? His parents have done the best they can, but I'm sure they can't shake the feeling that it's too little, too late.
Here is a question that goes a little beyond: Why does the Army always lie first? After every action, which is always a victory, the Army PR folks remind us that every soldier, following enlightened and lawful orders, did his job fearlessly, honorably, and with surgical precision. It's implausible on its face, and when an contratry evidence starts to come out, the Army is already painted into a corner, struggling to save as much of the story as possible, even if it means tarnishing the reputations of growing numbers of enlisted men and women.
It's a serious problem with all of our armed forces, and it extends beyond the Bush administration. The strategic thinkers consider lying (let's call it deception) to be part of their weaponry. But every lie pollutes the atmosphere.
If Tillman had lived, he could have told his own story. Now, even with the best efforts of all concerned, we'll never really know.
Arthur |
03.06.06 - 8:05 am | #
Pacha- Yer right. The "dems lack a coherent national message" is a part of the gooper attack- and it gets picked up regularly by the media as if they had just discovered it. It's meant to blunt the dem chances in November.
In general it doesn't make sense to have a "national message" for an off year election. Each race has to be run and won on it's own message. Many of the key races will be in "red" states- so any national message would have to be pretty watered down if all are going to run on it.
The model for comparison is always 94 when goopers produced the "contract with america" and took back congress. Imitating the ONE success in american politics with a national message in midterms is- well shallow.
Still- dems COULD probably pick a few themes that most could agree to:
-making social security secure without private accounts.
-"no more tax cuts" until the deficit is gone"
-their own plan for cleaning up the bribery mess in congress.
-secure our ports!
-Provide REAL oversight to this administration.
This "agenda" plays equally well in blue and red states and provides plenty of opportunity for bashing the fuckers.
rwcole |
03.06.06 - 8:06 am | #
Pachacutec,
Thanx for monitorin' the corporate mouthpieces, I haven't been able to read either the NYT or the WaPo for over 10 years. I have had to give up the LA Times in the last 2 years also and I haven't had the stomach for the BoGlobe for a LOONNGG time.
Do you think that the national mimeographs are gunna have much influence on the branding of the Democratic Party this time around or will Dean be able to prove the old axiom that "all politics are local"?
I am frankly more worried about the elected leadership undermining Dean and the party than I am concerned about the media streetwalkers who don't have the chops to carry their bag of quarters to the corner.
KEEP THE FAITH AND DON'T BELIEVE A WORD THEY SAY!!
NorskeFlamethrower |
03.06.06 - 8:08 am | #
I can't stomach this shit.
Sharon |
03.06.06 - 8:08 am | #
There is no doubt in my mind, nor has there been since I learned that Pat Tillman was opposed to Bush and the Iraq debacle, that his death was an assassination.
The Mighty Wurlitzer could not have convinced enough sheep to vote for Bush if Tillman had returned to the states a hero and denounced Bush and his illegal war while campaigning for Kerry.
I'm sure the decision was made to "..fight him over there so they didn't have to fight him over here."
Traitorous fucking thugs need to hang.
malcolmjames |
03.06.06 - 8:09 am | #
The Supreme Court leads us to a more mean-spirited America:
The Supreme Court has unanimously approved the Solomon Amendment, which forces law schools to allow homophobic government organizations to recruit on their campuses:
Someone needs to get this piece by ReddHedd into the hands of Pat Tillman's family, particularly his younger brother.
Based on what I have read about Pat's brother, he is a courageous man who is willing to speak out. As he did at Pat's funeral.
I think the family deserves answers, and I think this piece by ReddHedd captures the questions brilliantly. If the family asks them publicly, these questions may be answered.
anon |
03.06.06 - 8:11 am | #
I wonder if Tillman was going to go public with his anti Iraq war feelings? That could have produced a very chilling wind on the bush war. Can you imagine a Pat Tillman-Noam Chomsky Peace Tour across the red states?
lesarch |
03.06.06 - 8:13 am | #
The Bushniks have been sinking fast lately, and it's because stories are coming forth that the American electorate knows how to process-- Katrina, Cheney shooting, now Tillman. It's weird, but all the horror of Iraq, and Cheney's secret energy dealings, and godawful judicial nominations seem like abstractions to most people. They aren't moved until they see incompetence and corruption in its most immediate and obvious form.
islander |
03.06.06 - 8:13 am | #
On social security- dems should just adopt the AARP program and make it their own- would win support from a very powerful group.
rwcole |
03.06.06 - 8:14 am | #
New WP poll to be released at 5 eastern. WP has already released the parts about Iraq- and they are ugly for GW Clusterfuck!
rwcole |
03.06.06 - 8:14 am | #
Redd, nothing is sacred to them. Except their own money, and, maybe, their own families. That's it.
John |
Homepage |
03.06.06 - 8:15 am | #
An OT but related story, via The (liberal) Girl Next Door, via Wampum:
An intelligence agent from the NSA has come forward and in a letter to Congress, expressed his desire to tell them what he knows about the warrantless domestic surveillance being conducted by the NSA that is, in his opinion, in direct violation of the fourth amendment of the Constitution that he took an oath to uphold. Russell Tice has admitted to being one of the sources for the New York Times story that was withheld for a year before it ultimately exposed the domestic spying program by the NSA that has set off a firestorm of controversy. But beyond what we already know about the limited domestic spying that the President has admitted to, Tice claims that a program he was working on may have violated the fourth amendment rights of millions of Americans.
For his efforts, Russell Tice has been let go from the NSA and is being painted as mentally unstable by this administration in an attempt to shut him up, and make sure that he is either silenced completely or his credibility is shredded before he ever gets the chance to talk. The Bush administration has demonstrated over and over their willingness to do whatever it takes to silence any whistleblower brave enough to go against the grain and stand up against abuses of governmental power (Joe Wilson, Bunnatine Greenhouse, Sybil Edmonds, Richard Levernier, Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer). Yet, Tice continues to speak. There are still a few patriots out there, and we should listen to what they have to say, regardless of how scary their words may be. Watch this clip of Dennis Kucinich questioning Tice in Congressional hearings held last month.
And now Sibel Edmonds is ready to talk as well, despite the gag order placed on her by the DoJ. So far she has been barred from discussing what she knows even with members of Congress. The DoJ has been working so hard to shut her up and bury her story that they even retroactively classified a 60 Minutes profile on her AFTER IT HAD ALREADY AIRED!! This administration will do anything to control the message, control Congress, control the media, and now they are trying to control history as well. We should all be very scared. Go to Brad Blog for the details of her story and go here to sign the petition demanding that Congress act on this matter.
There is criminality in how the Bush administration conducts its business and in how they attempt to keep a lid on the truth. The real effect of his plummeting poll numbers is an increasing sense among members of his own party that it is not in their best interest to keep propping up the dam. As the wall of secrecy begins to crumble, Republicans in Congress are starting to look for an escape route, lest they get swept away by the flood waters that are threatening to come crashing over, around and through. It certainly feels like the implosion is beginning, which either means things are about to get much better, or much worse. With the escalating violence that this administration exhibits in its attempt to grab and hold on to power, there is no certainty in how things will turn out. The rule of law is sooo September 10th and the Bush/Cheney crowd has a pre-July 4th view of the world. It is still their country, we’re just suffering in it.
How much more time did Tillman have in his enlistment? (Wouldn't have been allowed to make political statements while on active duty.)
rwcole |
03.06.06 - 8:16 am | #
It's easy to figure out what the Bushies are up to: imagine the worst of human nature, double it, and there you go.
They are craven lunatics who need to be dragged out of the White House and tried for their crimes.
2000 Election Coup d'Etat
Cheney's Energy Task Force: Iraq war planning sessions, California Energy "crisis" strategy sessions
9/11: pushed and prodded the Taliban until they got their "new Pearl Harbor" to commence perpetual "War on Terror"
Anthrax Mailer: Cheney's shadow government preparing for war with Iraq
Paul Wellstone's Assassination: Secure majority in Senate while silencing vocal opponent of fascist rule.
Iraq War Lies: Planned propaganda campaign to synthesize cassus belli.
Pat Tillman: Murdered American hero to prevent Kerry from winning.
malcolmjames |
03.06.06 - 8:19 am | #
rwcole:
Tillman would have been back to the States in time to campaign for Kerry.
malcolmjames |
03.06.06 - 8:21 am | #
(I am reposting this from Gwen Knapp re Pat Tillman and his younger brother's words at his funeral.)
Tillman's youngest brother, Rich, wore a rumpled white T-shirt, no jacket, no tie, no collar, and immediately swore into the microphone. He hadn't written anything, he said, and with the starkest honesty, he asked mourners to hold their spiritual bromides.
"Pat isn't with God,'' he said. "He's f -- ing dead. He wasn't religious. So thank you for your thoughts, but he's f -- ing dead.''
What? This didn't happen for God, as well as country? A professional athlete turned soldier, and we're supposed to believe that he'd have no use for piety? Robbed of a cliche, where does that leave us?
If you want to see how this plays out in the military, watch Ed Zwicks movie Courage Under Fire with Denzel Washington and Meg Ryan. A powerful, underrated film which is directly on point with this whole issue.
Peter |
03.06.06 - 8:27 am | #
rwcole | 03.06.06 - 8:16 am |: How much more time did Tillman have in his enlistment? (Wouldn't have been allowed to make political statements while on active duty.)
Your question almost has a Cui Bono vibe...the story definitely deserves a non-MSM time-line to clarify exactly what happened. BushCo. really do take you through the Looking Glass…they constantly re-define the term war criminal.
(T)he Bush administration is going directly to the public with its war message. Raul Damas, associate director of political affairs at the White House, has been on the phone directly to Republican county chairmen to arrange local speeches by active duty military personnel to talk about their experiences in Iraq. To some Republican members, this unusual venture connotes a desire to go directly to the people to sell the president's position without having to deal with members of Congress.
It's time for everyone who believes in having an apolitical military to go here and file a complaint with the DoD's Inspector General.
rwcole | 03.06.06 - 8:06 am |
I agree with you and Pacha. Snottie McLellan routinely at his Press Bluffing, simply asserts about any topic, "the Democrats don't have a plan." The White House Press Corp just let it slip by completely unchallenged.
John Casper |
03.06.06 - 8:29 am | #
I won't hazard a guess as to what the future holds re: midterms.
Unless the Dems take back both houses, there will be anti-Dean backlash from within the party - the DC part of it.
Depending on how well the Dems do, Dean will have compelling counterarguments, though he will be making them behind closed doors.
He will have support of the grassroots and netroots. He is also thinking long term about guilding the party and the progressive movement, and not just about one election cycle. That's not what the establishment Dems are thinking about.
I expect Dean will send out a call to all sources for a big, national fundraising push come Spring or so. He has not abused the power of his donor base with big appeals, and we all appreciate it. So when he calls on us, we will respond, in ways that will make the DC dems take notice. But he won't compromise on the 50-state strategy.
Like ervyone else, I expect Dem gains in both houses, but I won't makes guesses about how extensive the gains will be.
I know the DC establishment is plannning to roll out a national midterm platform of sorts, and is waiting to do it until the elections are closer. But individual cdandidtaes will, I think, have the freedom to emphasize whatever elements of that agenda they see fit to emphasize, based on their own personalities and local dynamics.
I expect the national DC message will be timid on confronting the lies and criminality of the GOP and its whole governing history, including on the war. I imagine that local candidates who are more passionate about making the case for change, and aggressively standing for somehting (and against the GOP) will be the ones who do better.
That will mena that the winning survivors from the midterms will probably be a rather aggressive freshman class, compared to their more timid DC seniors. That will lead so some new tencion ins the capitol, since the winning message will be an aggressive one, which will unsettle the establishment. But that's what we want.
But no matter what, we won't win all the races, and whatever we don't win, someone will blame Dean. That is to be expected. But Dean will have fans among many of the new wave, if not most of it.
I would point out that AdNags does not really cite any source for this tension about amessage. What justifies the article? No DC dems are quoted, just some academic political professor, and a couple of candidtaes. But who decided this is a real problem? Why the column? No real clear answer from AdNags, and no quotes from anyone otenr than Rahn Emanuel, and those are small and late in the article (he is in charge of the DCCC).
Whoever is behind this - whatever combination of GOP ratfuckers and losing DC Dem consultants - remains in the shadows.
But you canbt reform the party from the inside without facing resiistance. We will overrun them.
Pachacutec |
03.06.06 - 8:30 am | #
mk--Yeah the timeline is important- as are any plans he may have had- which his brother might have known about.
rwcole |
03.06.06 - 8:31 am | #
It's sickening, it's enraging, it leaves me, at the end, feeling exhausted and helpless... and I didn't even know the man. It enrages me because my brother is also a Ranger, also fought in Afghanistan but had the good fortune to come hom in one piece. As much as I hate the illegal war in Iraq, I firmly believed in the war in Afghanistan, only to watch resources stripped away and the public's attention diverted by the bright, shiny bauble that was Iraq. It sickens me, cynic though I am, to finally understand the depths to which this administration will sink, never hesitating to exploit anyone whose spilled blood might give W an extra five or fifty points at the polls.
Bastards, bastards all.
boltgirl |
Homepage |
03.06.06 - 8:33 am | #
A strange story that is so emblematic of the Bush War Years. The one and only truth spoken about Pat Tillman’s death was his brother’s eulogy:
I didn't write shit because I'm not a writer. I'm not just going to sit here and break down on you. But thanks for coming. Pat's a fucking champion and always will be. Just make no mistake, he'd want me to say this: He's not with God. He's fucking dead. He's not religious. So, thanks for your thoughts, but he's fucking dead.
Jim S |
03.06.06 - 8:33 am | #
Once again they're looking for scapegoats, just like in the wake of Abu Ghraib. I was an early 60s draftee and from that limited exposure to military discipline (I was fortunate enough to get a desk-bound, country club post right after basic training because of my science education), there's no way in hell that I can believe those grunts would have happily posed for those pictures unless they had every reason to believe that what they were doing had more than winking and nodding approval of everyone up the chain of command as far as the eye could see, and then some.
Now they're at it again in the Tilman case. Disgusting!
Minnesotachuck |
03.06.06 - 8:35 am | #
pacha--dems will win some seats- they have an outside chance of winning a very small majority in one or both houses- but it will take a further deterioration of confidence in goopers to do it.
Attacking Clusterfuck doesn't necessarily help- it depends on the gooper opponent and the lay of the local land.
rwcole |
03.06.06 - 8:36 am | #
OT but regarding more lies exposed.
Did anyone catch 60 minutes last nite? Scott Pelley did a chilling piece re the deaths of 2 prisoners @ Bagram. I just have to say that there is a special place in hell for these war criminals. IMPEACH NOW http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/
2...in1364163.shtml
angie |
03.06.06 - 8:39 am | #
The treatment of Tillman's parents, Cindy Sheehan, Jessica Lynch, and all the not so famous dead Americans and Iraqi's killed by the Bush administration is wicked. It's not enough to say that on judgement day they will get their due. We need justice in our life time for Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld, Rice and the rest of the neo-con jackals who have been feeding on the carrion of the dead for so long. The wretched, contemptible Bush vamps have been literally sucking the oxygen from this country's blood. There must be a way to stop these promoters of war, death, misery and destruction.
sunflower |
03.06.06 - 8:39 am | #
OfT: from the WaPo's online chat "Rochester, N.Y.: What do you make of the Republicans' plan to use uniformed military personnel at their political rallies, such as the on Colorado Representative Marilyn Musgrave held this weekend? Do you think it's a good strategy? On the one hand, it is illegal, but on the other, if the Dems complain about it, they'll be labeled anti-military. And there's no way for them to respond in kind, since an active member of the military who campaigned for a Democrat would certainly be punished by the military. What are your thoughts on this?
Shailagh Murray: Greetings everyone.
Thought I would post this note as a way of heralding the 2006 campaign season, which now appears to be getting underway. Looks like some of the big 2004 themes will be replayed, on national security. Some polls suggest that Republicans may be losing some ground in this realm -- in the wake of the ports debacle, Iraq problems, etc. Wondering whether you folks outside Washington think that's the case?"
I thought it really was "illegal" for "uniformed" military personell to "sponsor" any product or candidate? Anyone in contact with the Dem running against Musgrave or the Democratic party in Colorado?
John Casper |
03.06.06 - 8:39 am | #
Either the Pentagon's Office of Special Plans or Karl Rove ordered his assassination.
Three bullets to the forehead means you were looking your victim in the eyes when you killed him.
Burned body armor and uniform means there were so many bullet holes that an "accidental" death would have been inconceivable.
Splitting the platoon against protocol and against the wishes of the on-the-ground lieutenant is suspicious.
Questions to ponder:
Had there been any personnel changes within Tillman's platoon? If so, where did they come from and what was their history?
Any "true believers" in his platoon? By this, I mean, any right-wing religiotrons who would be willing to sacrifice the atheist Tillman to advance the GOP cause.
Any history of confrontations between Tillman and anyone in his unit?
Why didn't the Rangers cease fire as they were ordered to by the lieutenant? It seems like they didn't want to stop firing until they were sure Tillman was dead. Blowing his head off insured that.
Kill the fucking fascists.
malcolmjames |
03.06.06 - 8:41 am | #
three bullets to the forehead seems awfully precise targeting in the midst of chaos.
bkny |
03.06.06 - 8:41 am | #
why is this blog called "fire dog lake"?
the subject matter has to do with
politics and society -- not dogs, or lakes, or fire.
where does this weird blog name come from?
moron |
03.06.06 - 8:43 am | #
Kathy Harris in deep shit in Florida. Does anyone know if she is opposed in the gooper primary?
rwcole |
03.06.06 - 8:44 am | #
There was nothing chaotic about Tillman's death: it was a carefully orchastrated political assassination.
malcolmjames |
03.06.06 - 8:45 am | #
As a former federal employee, I know that federal employees receive training about the restrictions placed on them by the Hatch Act. It is definitely a "no-no" to appear to represent your federal agency while supporting a particular candidate in a partisan manner. I'm sure military personnel also receive similar training.
The real question is--what actions are being taken against the two marines who attended Marilyn Musgrave's campaign event in uniform? A recent article in E&P reported the case of a VA nurse who was investigated for "sedition". Her "crime"? Writing a letter to the Editor which was critical of the Bush Admin.
My son is active duty military and he knows that partisan campaigning in uniform is not allowed. (but now I begin wonder if that means only if the politician is a democrat?) Hmmmm....
grandmatoo |
03.06.06 - 8:46 am | #
Goopers tryin to innoculate themselves early against further erosion in the esteem for their glorius leader. They have to do it soon- so that it won't be obviously a campaign ploy. Kinda funny.
rwcole |
03.06.06 - 8:48 am | #
apropos fire-dog-lake: dogs get discussed in here frequently. we have all condemned Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove et al to the burning, fiery pits of hell to writhe in agony for all eternity. lakes? good point!
Wilson46201 |
Homepage |
03.06.06 - 8:49 am | #
no, seriously -- why is it called that??
moron |
03.06.06 - 8:50 am | #
i think there is a gross underestimation how pysc ops works and how embedded the forcres are. prior to troops on the grown spinmasters were there to contort and manipulate every event. regular journalists have not just been discouraged but many killed for bringing us the truth. the press is all about freedon, freedom to spin.
the idea that these spinmeisters were present at the very beginning twisting tillmans death as some positive tool when in fact the implications given tillmans stance on the war and escalation to iraq, are horrendous.
what else don't we know? death squads?
its all a toss up, and lets blame the media, or the dems.
annie |
03.06.06 - 8:50 am | #
moron. o'glake is an ancient scottish weapon/club. a fire hardened o'glake is
stronger.
If I remember my FDL history.
Back to Tillman. This smells of Rove and Co. Someone told Georgie what at that speech. Fuckers.
colleen military mom |
03.06.06 - 8:50 am | #
Kathy Harris in deep shit in Florida. Does anyone know if she is opposed in the gooper primary?
rwcole | 03.06.06 - 8:44 am | #
Have you seen this on HuffPo? I haven't read the entire article.
PORT CHARLOTTE -- Already trying to avoid the media, Longboat Key Republican Katherine Harris is now canceling campaign stops in Southwest Florida as questions swirl about her ties to a Washington, D.C., defense contractor at the center of an ongoing national bribery scandal.
Harris, who is running for the U.S. Senate, abruptly canceled a stop in Charlotte County on Saturday, and four other events planned for Lee and Collier counties were removed from her campaign Web site.
It's another sign that Harris' struggling campaign is now in full crisis mode. Political consultants say that shying away from the public right now is also a bad strategy.
"She can't hide and expect this to go away," said David Johnson, a Republican political consultant. "It looks like her campaign is circling the wagons."
(snip)
Stephen Parrish, CPA |
03.06.06 - 8:51 am | #
something is still being hidden here. I doubt very much if they would open this sort of investigation over a simple mistake. Friendly fire deaths are not rare.
I have to guess that there may be questions about "intent." Just my sense.
seesdifferent |
Homepage |
03.06.06 - 8:52 am | #
Arthur,
Good question; one that has exercised the minds of the handful of conscientious reformers within the ranks of the uniformed military. (Very few of whom, by the way, ever rise above the rank of colonel). The late USAF Col. John Boyd was the classic case but there are still others out there, plus some civilian fellow-travelers. Here's a wonderful quote from Robert Coram's biography Boyd: The Fighter Pilot Who Changed The Art of War about the problem, and how he approached young officers who were conscience-stricken about the dilema:
“… one day you will come to a fork in the road…. And you’re going to have to make a decision about which direction you want to go…. If you go that way you can be somebody. You will have to make compromises and you will have to turn your back on your friends. But you will be a member of the club and you will get promoted and you will get good assignments…. Or you go that [the other] way and you can do something – something for your country and for your Air Force and for yourself. If you decide you want to do something, you may not get promoted and you may not get the good assignments and you certainly will not be a favorite of your superiors. But you won’t have to compromise yourself. You will be true to your friends and to yourself. And your work might make a difference…. To be somebody or to do something. In life there is often a roll call. That’s when you will have to make a decision. To be or to do? Which way will you go?”
Minnesotachuck |
03.06.06 - 8:52 am | #
Bush's speech eulogizing Tillman seems so much like Bill Nighy's character in "The Constant Gardener" eulogizing the nobility of Ralph Fiennes' character when he had clearly ordered his and his wife's deaths. It really does give you pause to wonder if Tillman's reported rhetoric on the ground in Iraq could've sealed his fate in the same way. Is it irresponsible to speculate?
TritoneSub |
03.06.06 - 8:52 am | #
"Any "true believers" in his platoon? By this, I mean, any right-wing religiotrons who would be willing to sacrifice the atheist Tillman to advance the GOP cause."
malcolmjames, you've nailed it in a nutshell right there. It was bad enough to them Tillman was a dissenter but the added insult of his "faith" sealed the deal. He was taken out because of his pre-fame (which would make people notice him and anything he had to say), pure and simple. Except things, like the truth, are never pure and rarely simple. Sickening, just sickening.
Shez |
03.06.06 - 8:53 am | #
And who will read the non-canonical epistle that causes the scales to fall from America's eyes?
TritoneSub |
03.06.06 - 8:54 am | #
PS to Arthur re John Boyd
I believe that most of the current Democratic Senators and Representatives in the House are afflicted by the problem Boyd addresses: at bottom, they're more interested in being Congress men and women than in really doing something meaningful. To me that explains a lot as to why they have put up such feeble opposition to Bush & Co.
Minnesotachuck |
03.06.06 - 8:56 am | #
Harris has fended off any serious GOP opposition in the primaries. The DC crowd tried to find a respectable candidate to 'bump her off' politically but they failed. Harris is extraordinarily polarizing and it was felt she'd loose the fall election even though she'd win the GOP primary.
Josh Marshall at TPM had some info on her months ago that hasn't come out again yet: she was actually present in the room when the MZM employees wrote out the fraudulent campaign checks... Stay tuned!
Wilson46201 |
Homepage |
03.06.06 - 8:56 am | #
The founder likes dogs, fires and lake or lakers...
Harry |
03.06.06 - 8:57 am | #
Redd,
Thanks for the post. Yeah, Hell of a thing to wake up to in the morning ugh? So sad for the family and his brother was their when it happened.
Has the WP. article been seen? Interviews with the unit's soldier's.
moron
Wilson just pulled that definition from his fertile mind.
It's fired o'glake.
colleen military mom |
03.06.06 - 8:58 am | #
malcomjames,
The truth of what you have said will be in the telling if they try and tag a couple a PFC's with derreliction. This ain't gunna sit well with the John Mutha folks who make up a good portion of the political spine of the military. If there is anything the "professional officer class" understands it's the political economy of funding...
This thing with Tillman is gunna be a nightmare for the fascists because it comes right at the moment that Republican politicians are being exposed for usung active duty soldiers in campaigns. This might be the war story that gets away from Rove entirely.
I am an enlisted Viet Nam vet and this story is too real. So,guard your outrage, feed it in the name of all the Pat Tillmans of this war and let it illuminate the terrible truth of the monsters who are destroying our country.
KEEP THE FAITH MALCOM AND TAKE NO FUCKING PRISONERS!!
NorskeFlamethrower |
03.06.06 - 9:00 am | #
Has anyone heard anything from Pat Tillman's former team mates, or other players in the NFL? It seems to me that those players could bring extreme pressure to bear on anyone avoiding a thorough investigation.
I could imagine the publicity generated by a number of them asking questions and speaking out.
Absolutely wonderful post Redd! You brought things out that had escaped many of us. ( including myself )
trainer |
03.06.06 - 9:00 am | #
the three bullets could also be the result of a tight grip on a squad automatic weapon during a three round burst. I was a SAW gunner for a while during the 90's and it is possible. These guys are Rangers, after all.
I'm not willing to assume Tillman was intentionally murdered by his platoon. I don't believe one could get 30 guys to sign on for that, particularly when the target is someone like Pat.
Andy |
03.06.06 - 9:00 am | #
Andy, it doesn't take 30 guys, just one, one guy who felt his God and his Commander were right, to take him out. Worked real good didn't it.
Shez |
03.06.06 - 9:05 am | #
colleen military mom | 03.06.06 - 8:58 am | #
Please refer to Harry's 8:57 post. To paraphrase Jane's comments, she likes to sit with her dog by the fire and watch the Lakers - Jane, please help me out here if I'm incorrect.
Stephen Parrish, CPA |
03.06.06 - 9:05 am | #
ReddHedd, thanks so much for the great Update.
John Casper |
03.06.06 - 9:06 am | #
This story is really starting to piss me off.
Friendly fire is a terrible thing, but it happens.
I never reallized that Buchco/Rove knew about his death.. The election was important enough to risk exposing their lieing. Bush may not have known, but Rove did.
colleen military mom |
03.06.06 - 9:07 am | #
Right now the speculation is Vince Foster territory. Perhaps the investigation will uncover something the brass were not even considering. Depends on the investigator and you know, whether there's anything to the speculation that foul play was involved. Hey just 'cause my hat is shiny doesn't mean that I think people are trying to read my thoughts. It doesn't mean they aren't trying either.
TritoneSub |
03.06.06 - 9:09 am | #
Sneak preview from Raw Story:
Firm with Dubai HQ guarded Katrina trailers... Developing...
Stephen Parrish, CPA |
03.06.06 - 9:09 am | #
Redd Help me out here. Is firedoglake an ancient weapon?
Thanks
colleen military mom |
03.06.06 - 9:13 am | #
As for timing, it should be noted that between the time of Tillman's death and the medal award 8 days later, another incident had vaulted to the forefront of the world's attention- the publication on April 28, 2004, by CBS News, of the first photographs of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal.
The Pentagon, faced with an explosive PR disaster in the making, pushed the phony Tillman narrative in order to control the news cycle, a text book case of "perception management."
Propagandee |
03.06.06 - 9:15 am | #
Here is an excerpt from the DOD Directive that forbids members of the armed services to participate in partisan political events while in uniform. Even out of uniform, their presence at conventions is limited to their being spectators, i.e., not making speeches.
[excerpt]
General 4.1.1. A member on active duty may:
4.1.1.1. Register, vote, and express his or her personal opinion on political candidates and issues, but not as a representative of the Armed Forces.
4.1.1.2. Make monetary contributions to a political organization. 4.1.1.3. Attend partisan and nonpartisan political meetings, rallies, or conventions as a spectator when not in uniform. 4.1.2. A member on active duty shall not:
4.1.2.1. Use his or her official authority or influence for interfering with an election; affecting the course or outcome of an election; soliciting votes for a particular candidate or issue; or requiring or soliciting political contributions from others.
4.1.2.2. Be a candidate for, hold, or exercise the functions of civil office except as authorized in paragraphs 4.2. and 4.3., below. 4.1.2.3. Participate in partisan political management, campaigns, or conventions (unless attending a convention as a spectator when not in uniform).
4.1.2.4. Make campaign contributions to another member of the Armed Forces or an employee of the Federal Government.
[snip]
Write to your representatives, send themi this link.
orangejumpsuit |
Homepage |
03.06.06 - 9:15 am | #
You wouldn't need 30 guys to sign up for that; it would only take one or two to complete this particular mission.
Remember, the platoon had been split in two when one of their two Humvees broke down. Instead of keeping the platoon in tact while they removed the disabled vehicle, the commanders back at the base ordered half the platoon to advance up the canyon on foot.
Allegedly a fire fight with some Taliban fighters broke out and Tillman, another Ranger, and an Afghan militiaman headed back towards the fray.
Tillman offered to drop his body armor so he could be back faster to help his fellow Rangers. Command told him not to.
Everyone should have known each other's positions. Tillman and the two others came under sustained fire from two Rangers who arrived in the non-disabled Humvee. They continued to fire even though the lieutenant ordered them to cease fire.
Tillman was screaming that he was a friendly and waving his arms. He also radioed back to let everyone know that friendlies were being fired upon.
Once the shooting stopped, Tillman stood up to walk toward the Humvee and was dropped with a three round burst to the forehead.
Tell me how that could have been caused by sporadic firing from a SAW.
The Bush administration would not have been able to convince enough sheep to vote for them to allow them to comfortably steal another election if Tillman had come home opposed to the Iraq war and George Bush.
They had him killed because they are craven lunatics and power hungry sociopaths. They clearly don't care about anyone but themselves and those like them.
They need to be tried for their crimes and executed in accordance with existing United States criminal code.
malcolmjames |
03.06.06 - 9:16 am | #
Shez, granted it would only take one guy.
But the military world is a different animal than the civilian world. Black, white, male, female, repub or dem... everyone still wears the same uniform, and that counts for a lot.
I'm not willing to believe Tillman was the victim of politically-motivated fratricide. I need a lot more proof.
Andy |
03.06.06 - 9:16 am | #
And malcom, in regards to the three round burst to the forehead... shit happens.
Andy |
03.06.06 - 9:18 am | #
How do you explain the burning of his uniform and body armor?
Where did the journals he had written in every day since he was 16 go?
This was a classic political assassination, plain and simple.
I'll bet if we could subject Karl Rove to a couple of "enhanced interrogation techniques" we'd find out the truth real fast.
Kill all fascists.
malcolmjames |
03.06.06 - 9:20 am | #
The backstory to this investigation is that death by friendly fire is routinely followed by a criminal investigation. After all, fragging a superior officer is not unknown in battle. It is also a way to uncover whether there was criminal negligence involved.
However, the scandal with Pat Tillman was that this otherwise routine investigation was not done. This is why his family is outraged, and they are correct to be outraged.
Another meme that is quietly making the rounds is that Tillman was against the Iraq invasion and was infact a enthusiastic reader of Noam Chomsky, the opposite of a neocon and an ardent critic of the war.
orangejumpsuit |
Homepage |
03.06.06 - 9:23 am | #
duke - the gift that keeps on giving. Michael Wade - He also funneled $32,000 in illegal donations to Rep. Katherine Harris (R-FL). Harris initially told Sarasota Herald-Tribune reporter Tom Lyons, along with other journalists, that "she didn't have any idea" why employees from Wade's company, MZM, donated the money. She insisted "all those MZM-connected people -- who didn't live in Florida and whose $2,000 checks arrived in bundles -- just liked her stands on the issues and wanted to see her re-elected." But Wade's plea agreement revealed that he took Harris "to dinner at a Washington, D.C., restaurant, Citronelle, and asked her to help the company get a defense contract." (Talking Points Memo notes "the restaurant's prix-fixe menu starts at $85, well over the Congressional $50 gift limit.") A source told the Washington Post that "Harris made such a request for funding, but it was not granted." Lyons' take: "Let's not make this fuzzy: U.S. Rep. Katherine Harris lied."
malcolmjames
Compelling arguments all. But I think nothing will come of it without a smoking gun in the form of a witness or some cognizant whistleblower. Suspicions we got plenty, it's proof that is wanting.
TritoneSub |
03.06.06 - 9:24 am | #
I understand the only reason Harris' earmark request wasn't granted was that it wasn't filed on time. Whatta fuckup! She takes a bribe and couldnt even deliver the goods...
Wilson46201 |
Homepage |
03.06.06 - 9:26 am | #
This nation is in a death spiral heading for the metaphorical deck of an aircraft carrier.
If John "The Human Muppett" Bolton gets his way and the US bombs Teheran it will be lights out.
The more the truth comes to light, now with the federal government and the military planning to purge reporters and the press and to moniter and "correct" blogs, the thousands of secret tribunals, the complicity in the death squadization of Iraq, the blither march towards war in another nation that hasn't attacked us in 30 years, the international secret prisons, the retroactive redacting of laws, the crony sellout of the nations infrastructure, the abject apathy of much of the nation, the willing impotence of the congressional branch of government, the less I think this place is worth fighting for anymore..especially if the average citizen finds this to be acceptable behavior from their military and government.
We are beginning to resemble the tinpot dictatorships and authoritarian nations we once fought against and ridiculed.
What a nightmare.
-GSD
Granite State Destroyer |
Homepage |
03.06.06 - 9:31 am | #
I'm not willing to believe Tillman was the victim of politically-motivated fratricide. I need a lot more proof.
Andy | 03.06.06 - 9:16 am | #
that would've been me too about 3 years ago Andy, but we are through the looking glass here
cbl |
03.06.06 - 9:31 am | #
orangejumpsuit | Homepage | 03.06.06 - 9:15 am
Thanks a lot for the info.
John Casper |
03.06.06 - 9:31 am | #
Well Andy, I was raised in the Navy, my ex hubby was in the Air Force, I spent nearly 30 of my 50 years on bases, if nothing else I have a pretty good idea that orders are followed and are not to be questioned. Granted that does make me an expert by any means. One thing I do trust implicitly is my feminine intuition and psychic abilities that I've had since a child. This story and the facts as we know them do NOT pass the smell test.
I AM willing to believe he was intentionally murdered and I DO believe Tillman was the victim of politically-motivated, religious- based, "fratricide". To read malcolmjames' 9:16am account reinforces my feelings on this.
Yet I understand your wariness on wanting solid irrefutable facts, nothing wrong with that. Don't we all.
Shez |
03.06.06 - 9:33 am | #
How do you explain the burning of his uniform and body armor?
Where did the journals he had written in every day since he was 16 go?
This was a classic political assassination, plain and simple.
I'll bet if we could subject Karl Rove to a couple of "enhanced interrogation techniques" we'd find out the truth real fast.
Kill all fascists.
malcolmjames |
03.06.06 - 9:34 am | #
I'm not willing to believe Tillman was the victim of politically-motivated fratricide. I need a lot more proof.
Andy | 03.06.06 - 9:16 am |
We in the progressive camp have to be careful not to make such imputations. Let's stay with the facts. The facts are that (1) the military did not do due diligence following the shooting of Pat Tillman, (2) they at first lied about his death being due to enemy fire, (3) they seem to have distorted some of the story in order to get a favorable spin out of this tragedy, and (4) there may be some elements of a coverup to sanitize the story.
And my comments refer stricly to the military. What the WH has done is beneath contempt and shameful to the highest degree.
If there is deliberate or negligent fratricide here, that is the purpose of the investigation to disclose. Until then, we should stay with the facts as known.
orangejumpsuit |
Homepage |
03.06.06 - 9:34 am | #
PS: I speak as a veteran.
orangejumpsuit |
Homepage |
03.06.06 - 9:35 am | #
What the PR department at FDL needs is copies of emails or letters that Pat Tillman sent expressing his resistance (disgust) for the Iraq occupation. Such communications must exist; he didn't start reading Chomsky out of thin air, and it's not commonly found on the shelves of your average PX.
Pat's communications, if found, should be trumpeted throughout the blogsphere. They'd be picked up by the MSM immediately, and the Wurlitzer probably couldn't kill the stories fast enough.
MarcLord |
03.06.06 - 9:36 am | #
OT
Just got this article emailed to me-- written by Kate Michelman and a nicely crafted piece.
This administration has blown every change of deserving the benefit of the doubt.
We need to stay on the attack on this one.
The Bush administration, or a crazed faction therein, ordered the assassination of an American hero for political expediency.
Murder is murder is murder.
malcolmjames |
03.06.06 - 9:38 am | #
LOL sorry, I edited "doesn't" but left out the "not" which I wanted to bold. "I am NOT an expert by any means" it should say.
Shez |
03.06.06 - 9:39 am | #
"PS: I speak as a veteran."
Me too and I agree.
Even it wasn't an assassination the fact that the President made political hay with false information demands that he answer for WHKAWHKI. Someone should lose their job for this. The President should either admit that he knew the info was false (I'll hold my breath for that one) or fire somebody for feeding the lie up the chain.
TritoneSub |
03.06.06 - 9:40 am | #
" It was not until May 29, 2004, a day after The Arizona Republic reported that an Army investigation had concluded Tillman died by friendly fire, that the Army publicly acknowledged that fact."
"He also alleged that the results of an earlier homicide investigation into his son's death had been reworked by officers after the investigating officer refused to alter them.
Superior officers even "deliberately falsified baseline facts," including distances and light conditions in the rocky area where his son was killed, he wrote. "
annie |
03.06.06 - 9:45 am | #
hard too ignore the fact that tillman was beginning to speak out against the iraq war at the worst possible moment for the administration. what he was saying was on point and potentially being heard by the football-watching-base... fratricide is a serious charge, but these are the same people who 'accidentally' bombed al jazeera... let's start with who the trigger man was...
travy |
03.06.06 - 9:47 am | #
Redd, nothing is sacred to them. Except their own money, and, maybe, their own families. That's it.
Self above the common good. Power above all else.
Piegrrrl |
03.06.06 - 9:47 am | #
New thread from Redd: Demanding Accountability
Stephen Parrish, CPA |
03.06.06 - 9:52 am | #
Andy,
Let's get offa this romanticizin' of the military. The worst thing that can happen to a democracy is an all volunteer, professional military. The horrible truth of war is the loss of truth, the willing forfiture of the individual's humanity for the survival of the animal. Anyone who has been up close and personal with the reality of war and who carries the permanent wounds to the soul that comes from the degredation of the spirit resulting from exposure to the horror of war, will not try and sell the experience to the uninitiated like a senior frat member to a pledge.
It is very possible that Pat Tillman was killed deliberately, it is also very possible that a young, scared 19 year old kid paniced and shot 'im by mistake.
What is important here is that Pat Tillman is dead and he is dead because of a lie and his death has been used to perpetuate a larger lie...the lie that war and killing is heroic and honorable.
So, be still Andy...listen to the truth in your soul, you can't hear it if your singin' romantic lies.
KEEP THE FAITH AND KEEP YOUR MILITARY RECUITERS AWAY FROM MY CHILDREN!!!
NorskeFlamethrower |
03.06.06 - 9:54 am | #
It occurred to me that perhaps things have finally reached the point where the Bush levee that has been able to stem the tide of political scandal, impeachable offenses and imperial hubris, has finally been breached, and no amount of Rovian machinations, political doublespeak or attempts to change the rules, will be able to stem the flooding that threatens to drown this hapless, hopeless and pathologically lying, amoral administration.
If I were Pat Tillman’s family, I would do everything in my power to expose the heartless and ruthless use of my son for the administation’s own ends. It is clear that there is no level too low for the administration to stoop, but this made my blood boil. I can’t imagine how the Tillman family must feel.
Reading today that the administration wants to pull in an American company to parner with Dubai Ports World to ease the deal through made me want to punch my computer screen when I read that the American company they feel would be the most qualified is – you guessed it – Halliburton. Great. More ways for Halliburton to fleece the government, and the taxpayers.
Next, I read over the weekend that, rather than going after those within the administration and various agencies who are leaking, they want to go after journalists and the media who dare to make those leaks public. It’s all well and good for the administration to leak whenever it suits their purpose, but they want to sentence journalists to the gulag for daring to get to the truth. Where is the pushback from the media?
For too long, this administration has managed to keep the house of cards from tumbling down, but their incompetence, tone-deafness and residence in upside-down world is finally catching up.
What does this mean for November? I think the GOP is going to avoid national issues like the plague, because those issues are too closely associated with Bush. I think they go local, and my hope is that the Dems will refuse to let the GOP set the terms for the political fight, and will keep reminding the voters what George Bush hath wrought over the last 5 years.
My greatest fear, at this point, is that the Dems will once again fail to have a cohesive enough strategy to win, and will be so all over the map that they will look deranged. Someone has to stop the intra-party feuding/sniping among the national party leadership and make some tough decisions. If Dean is an albatross, he has to be dumped and dumped now, in favor of someone who can unite the effort with a winning strategy.
Sorry for jumping all around, but it’s just been that kind of morning.
Anne |
03.06.06 - 9:56 am | #
"We in the progressive camp have to be careful not to make such imputations."
I concurr 100%.
For example Bush's National Guard record is abysmal. But because Mary Mapes and Dan Rather jumped on a document that was clearly inconsistent with the technology available at its alleged production date, Bush became a "victim." Now instead of losing votes, because of he was beyond worthless in the National Guard in the U.S., (while Kerry and Murtha were actually in Vietnam) Bush GAINED votes because he was a "victim" of the "liberal bias."
What's clear, right now, is that the military "covered up" a "friendly-fire" incident. This "resonates," resoundingly with DeadEye's cover-up when he shot Harry. The "two birds" we've got in the hand, are worth a lot more imo than whatever is in the bushes.
John Casper |
03.06.06 - 10:00 am | #
Anne -- I am right there with you today. Maybe I've had too much coffee, but I'm just running around, mad as hell, and trying to settle in for a good think. But not quite getting past the mad as hell part. SIGH
ReddHedd |
Homepage |
03.06.06 - 10:02 am | #
My reluctance to impute a WH-directed assassination is not based on giving Bush the benefit of the doubt, but is based on the realities on the ground when this happened. Even Karl Rove would have to be more of an evil genius than he already is to engineer a battlefield assassination in the midst of a twilight firefight in the mountains of Afghanistan with visibility poor and all hell breaking loose.
If there is fratricide here, it would have been more likely motivated by peer hatred. I mean, the Rangers are not boy scouts, and they are more likely than not to be right-wingers. With Tillman possibly being open and voluble about his doubts about the war, yes, there may have been elements of hostility here.
But again, considering the realities on the ground, a very tragic accident is the more likely explanation. This does not excuse for one second the dereliction of duty on the part of the Army and cynical opportunism from the WH since then. Let's hope the Inspector General's investigation will be bring out the truth. We need some truth just about now.
orangejumpsuit |
Homepage |
03.06.06 - 10:04 am | #
While I stand by my previous description of the firefight, this next piece of information is uncorroborated heresay. Perhaps someone can help clear it up.
I heard that zero 7.62mm shell casings were found at the scene of the alleged firefight. In other words, there was no one present firing an AK-47. In other words, there was no "firefight".
Tillman may have been drawn in by a phony decoy firefight simply to have him gunned down.
I assure you, Karl Rove or the Pentagon's Office of Special Plans - perhaps the two working together - would be capable of orchastrating a hit like this.
They did it to Paul Wellstone, why wouldn't they do it to Pat Tillman?
malcolmjames |
03.06.06 - 10:08 am | #
Andy @ 03.06.06 - 9:16 am - I'm not willing to believe Tillman was the victim of politically-motivated fratricide. I need a lot more proof.
Nor am I. I was never in the service, but spent quite a few years designing and testing command and control systems. For those not familiar with that term, these are computer systems that are supposed to help military commanders keep track of where military units and assets are and what condition they're in. This is a difficult thing to do even in the unrealistic war games we sometimes used to test our systems with. It's considerably harder when everyone's scared and there's a real enemy who's doing his best to confuse you.
The bottom line is that as mobile and well-armed as soldiers are nowadays, accidents like this incident are going to happen.
Cujo359 |
03.06.06 - 10:16 am | #
malcomjames,
You are right as rain, Pat was probably assasinated...but the important thing is that he is dead, the military covered up the circumstances of his death and lied to perpetuate the larger lie.
Please see my post to Andy above...you must hold Pat's memory close, you must advance the truth of his life and the greater truth that he died learning. It is enough to keep the truth of Pat's life and the reality of his death in front of people...don't let the details consume you. We owe it to Pat and to Paul Wellstone to expose the greater lie that they died fighting.
KEEP THE FAITH, THEY WILL ALL BURN IN HELL!!
NorskeFlamethrower |
03.06.06 - 10:19 am | #
Re: Soldiers as Republican props:
If Jane Fonda had been there that soldier would be facing a firing squad. I was in the Philippines when they were filming "Apocalypse Now" and when Jane Fonda appeared briefly in the Philippines. In both cases the military posted signs in every bar in town (Mostly in front of urinals, so you couldn't miss it) that threatened court martial for any American servicemen participating in either event. My how things change and the "rule of law" goes right out the window with Republicans in charge.
Is there no end to their lawlessness? Where is the DOJ to stop all this crime?
Bill Arnett |
03.06.06 - 10:27 am | #
ck: Great talking point you wrote:
the Bush/Cheney crowd has a pre-July 4th view of the world.....
ccmask |
03.06.06 - 10:27 am | #
Cujo,
It is very important that you understand what Pat Tillman's death has to teach you...listen to you own words, "The bottom line is as mobile and well armed as soldiers are nowdays, accidents like this incident are going to happen."
This was no accident, even if it was the result of unintentional friendly fire. Pat is dead because he was there doing what soldiers do in war. And he was there because of the lies told to instigate this war and his death was used to perpetuate the myth of the heroic death.
You must understand that there is no innocence left in war, not for the warrior, not for the politician and not for those who carry the war forward by the work that they do. There are no "accidental deaths" in war and no matter where you are or what you do in a country that declares war you are a part of it...even those of us who oppose the warmakers and lose that political fight, we are responsible members of the society that perpetuated the conflict. There is no innocence and no innocents in war Cujo...
KEEP THE FAITH WE WILL ALL FACE THE CONSEQUENCES SOMETIME!!
NorskeFlamethrower |
03.06.06 - 10:32 am | #
One angle on where to begin the unravelling of the liars up the chain of command might be to look more closely at the Silver Star.
My assumption (which may be wrong) is that the Silver Star was awarded for his actions against the enemy at the time of his death, actions which we now know to be a fiction.
If this is so, there must be a paper trail for that commendation -- there would be names of people corroborating the (fictitious) actions. Start there, and work your way up the line. (I also have a feeling that lying in support of a commendation is probably a violation of some military justice code.)
Ficus |
Homepage |
03.06.06 - 10:33 am | #
John Casper @ 03.06.06 - 10:00 am -- I agree. Rather than face the inevitable charges from their political opponents that they were mismanaging the war in Afghanistan, the DoD, and perhaps the Bush Administration, covered this up and then repeatedly stymied efforts to get at the truth. What's worse, they used a fake story about the incident to raise their political standing. This is a disservice both to the Tillman family and to the service, and if they had any sense of shame they'd never be able to look at themselves in the mirror.
Cujo359 |
03.06.06 - 10:37 am | #
Reading all the comments today reminds me of a strange movie my son down loaded about soildiers comming back from the dead with the sole purpose of voting the murderous chickenhawks out of office.
Will this be the story to wake up the men and women in uniform whom still march to the mighty wurlitzer before they become republican night of the living dead?
The fact that this is investigation #5(?) tells me that this story is to big to contain but to damaging to not give every attempt to censor.
Like Tillmon, I am not religious, but it sure seems his spirit is giving some sleepless nights. Carma's a bitch and it's coming in by the boat load. It's got to catch up!
Tinksrival |
03.06.06 - 10:44 am | #
The soldiers on the ground said they burned Tillman's bullet-riddled uniform and body armor, the Post reported, because they considered them a biohazard, and because, as one said, "we knew at the time, based on taking the pictures and walking around it, it was a fratricide…. so we weren't thinking about proof or anything."
Bless your heart and your son...Karma's a bitch!!
NorskeFlamethrower |
03.06.06 - 10:53 am | #
NorskeFlamethrower @ 03.06.06 - 10:32 am -- This is nonsensical on so many levels. Where to begin? How about the meaning of the word "accident".
From dictionary.com:
accident n.
1. a. An unexpected and undesirable event, especially one resulting in damage or harm: car accidents on icy roads.
b. An unforeseen incident: A series of happy accidents led to his promotion.
c. An instance of involuntary urination or defecation in one's clothing.
2. Lack of intention; chance: ran into an old friend by accident.
3. Logic. A circumstance or attribute that is not essential to the nature of something.
*** end quote ***
No mention of innocence or any synonym I can rcognize. Accidents happen for many reasons, including misfortune, stupidity, panic, recklessness, and negligence. They also happen anywhere there are dangerous situations and human beings.
Second, if I haven't figured out that war is a dreadful, dehumanizing experience by now, after having worked around soldiers and ex-soldiers for the better part of two decades, you're not going to teach me here.
Finally, what's your point? Am I supposed to believe that because "there is no innocence left in war", one of Tillman's fellow soldiers simply must have killed him?
Cujo359 |
03.06.06 - 10:59 am | #
ccmask,
Thanx for the link, we just hafta keep this thing echoing, doesn't matter what the final, "official" determination is...the truth is that nobody will win here and certainly not the chickenhawks and the liars. The more this stays in front of folks, the greater the anger. It doesn't matter now how this one incident resolves...it is enough for Pat and his family if his death becomes part of the great unraveling of the terrible crime of the Iraq War.
KEEP THE FAITH AND DON'T LET 'EM OFF THE GROUND!!!
NorskeFlamethrower |
03.06.06 - 11:00 am | #
Tinksrival @ 03.06.06 - 10:44 am -- Reading all the comments today reminds me of a strange movie my son down loaded about soildiers comming back from the dead with the sole purpose of voting the murderous chickenhawks out of office.
Sounds like a movie plot I could get into.
Cujo359 |
03.06.06 - 11:01 am | #
Cujo,
I feel for ya kid, I really do...you don't have a clue. There are no accidental deaths in war and there are no accidents either...war is not a rational activity with good guys and bad guys and well intentioned mistakes.
War is between people who are ultimately responsible for their actions ... everyone will carry that responsibilty to their graves. The end purpose of war is death...any attempt to create meaning beyond that is rationalizing bullshit.
It is clear you haven't been close to it or you wouldn't be stupid enough to even try and argue with me.
NorskeFlamethrower |
03.06.06 - 11:11 am | #
P.S. Cujo,
Nonsense is the waste of my time in tryin ta get you to use the few brain cells you got left to make sense of something you will never have the intellectual capacity to understand.
NorskeFlamethrower |
03.06.06 - 11:26 am | #
Reading all the comments today reminds me of a strange movie my son down loaded about soildiers comming back from the dead with the sole purpose of voting the murderous chickenhawks out of office.
Will this be the story to wake up the men and women in uniform whom still march to the mighty wurlitzer before they become republican night of the living dead?
The fact that this is investigation #5(?) tells me that this story is to big to contain but to damaging to not give every attempt to censor.
Like Tillmon, I am not religious, but it sure seems his spirit is giving some sleepless nights. Carma's a bitch and it's coming in by the boat load. It's got to catch up!
Tinksrival |
03.06.06 - 11:57 am | #
I am somewhat surprised that the soldiers went along. They should KNOW that it is a no-no to wear a uniform, thus acting as an official representative, to ANY political activity. We are all reminded of this EVERY election season.
Perhaps they made individual mistakes (big ones) OR they were given the illegal OK from their superiors.
This isn't a minor deal. It is ALWAYS in my mind vis a vis political activities, that I must NEVER EVER represent myself in any official military capacity whatsoever at political events, protests, etc.
Praedor Atrebates |
03.06.06 - 1:27 pm | #
Didn't they burn his journals as well (or disappear them).
Bunch of criminal thought police history rapists.
I was going to put up a picture of Tillman also (still might), though I would never put up a picture of W.
Tillman is still a hero, its just that the end of his life is a tragic part of his story. He is a hero to me since it was NOT ABOUT THE MONEY. He chose to do what he thought was right, and these right wing freaks choose what they know is wrong to make the money or power - and not only that they claim to do what is right, and that they champion the correct causes. They talk like they would give it all up to grab and M-16 and free the world and make America a guiding light - they never do and they never will.
Most of them had their chance and they did not, still more could join today, or volunteer to do things for soldiers, etc. No they decieve others, and they decieve themselves. I can't even fathom which is more despicable:
1. Those that decieve other, and know that they have made a choice to take the money and use religion and patriotism as a sword to battle for power and riches
2. Those that decieve others, and decieve themselves. That they are so full of shit that they do not even realize that they are really people like #1 above is they would only stop their raping for a few seconds and think about it.
I think I will put up that picture of Tillman when I create my photo gallery. I think (and some people will not understand this, but to me it is a great honor if done with repect) I will name my dog after Tillman when I find one.
"Brothers and sisters
This plight we're facing
Get involved problems to solved
Yourselves concerning
Divided we are so
One by one we are falling
The front line of the battle is hottest
Your duties calling
I demand to know who's responsible?
They don't give a damn no"
One by one we are falling
The front line of the battle is hottest
gleex |
03.06.06 - 1:56 pm | #
Steel Pulse,
Great post...
NorskeFlamethrower |
03.06.06 - 2:20 pm | #
gl,
Great post...so is "Steel Pulse"
NorskeFlamethrower |
03.06.06 - 2:22 pm | #
They also lied to Tillmans brother who he served with but who was not present at the time
Anonymous |
03.06.06 - 2:25 pm | #
Anne >"...What does this mean for November?..."
Prior to the election in November I expect the Internet to start having some "infrastructure problems" and for many Internet based systems to quit being effective unless their effectiveness is helping the ReThuglicans
AT&T consolidates their power over the backbone(s)
Forewarned is forearmed
"The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist thinks it will change; the realist adjusts the sails." - William Arthur Ward
daCascadian |
03.06.06 - 3:14 pm | #
Pat Tillman is not a hero by any stretch of the imagination and I am appalled by people on this thread calling him one. If he actually absorbed anything that Noam Chomsky wrote he certainly wouldn't have been over there fighting for imperialism. If anything, this was a typical fragging incident where a hyped -up egomanic gets offed and the government uses his "sacrifice" to their own ends.
purvis ames |
03.06.06 - 3:26 pm | #
Was it the fact that Tillman, when first sent to Iraq, wondered why he was there? I heard he was becoming very vocal about his feelings about the war. Was he a casualty because he refused to shut up?
S.L. |
Homepage |
03.06.06 - 5:03 pm | #
OK -- I know it requires a bit of dumpster diving... buuuttt-
For those of you not current with your shots and innoculations -- a pertient post from someone claiming to know the TIllman family:
Did you all know that Pat's head was virtually blown off and that all bullets were put into him by three marksmen from his own group? It has all the looks of a professional hit.
Did you know that the book he kept with all his notes was mysteriously missing? He was disillusioned and they knew he would not have kept quiet
Did you also know that his brother was scheduled to return to Iraq, found out the three soldiers who shot his brother were in the same group, and asked the commanders if they were crazy? Pat's brother refused to go with them and they put him somewhere else.
There needs to be an investigation. BTW you will not find anywhere what I have said here. I learned it from Pat Tillman's Mom through a mutually very close friend.
There is much more and it is disheartening!
*end quote
It's a very ugly accusation - but really, hard to deny there's a bit of fragging smoke here....
zonk |
03.06.06 - 7:37 pm | #
I was in Kabul on the day that Tillman's heroic death in a firefight with the enemy was announced at the military press briefing. That was all anyone had to go on for days, even weeks, because the Army wouldn't allow anyone anywhere near the area where Tillman was killed, in the mountains along the border with Pakistan close to Khowst, as I recall. My theory on the Army's cover-up is that it was reflexive at first -- the tendency of the military being unwilling to immediately admit a mistake. But it was only about a week later that
the cover-up came to be managed straight out of the White House. Why was that? Because the photos from Abu Gahrib became public right in the middle of the President's re-election campaign, that's why, and even the Rove-managed WH "war room" would have had a hard time managing those two scandals at once.
Lucian Truscott |
03.07.06 - 12:32 am | #
purvis ames @ 03.06.06 - 3:26 pm -- Anyone who chooses to serve his society is heroic, as far as I'm concerned. Tillman served in a way that put his life in danger, and he certainly had a comfortable and lucrative alternative in the NFL, making him even more heroic.
As for the Noam Chomsky thing, I think it's best to take that part of someone's wisdom that works for you. I certainly don't know what the relationship was between them, and so I can only guess that this is what Tillman might have done. He was clearly a smart man, though, so it's possible that's what he did.
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