that just about says it all, crc!
angie |
03.15.06 - 6:07 pm | #
What a bunch of freakin' cowards they are. But Harkin comes from the great and mythical heartland, so maybe that combined with fresh batch of ca 35% polls will help a few of them grow a pair. The more I see of Menendez too, the more I like him.
DemByDefault |
03.15.06 - 6:10 pm | #
great pic, and I agree completely. I mean, how long did it take FDL to rise to the occasion? We are all so hungry for someone to stand up to this loser preznit @ 33%. way past time, go Feingold, Jane and Christy.
angie |
03.15.06 - 6:11 pm | #
Oh, I'm so sure Hillary and Chuck are going to rally to Russ' side.
Jane - I posed this question to ReddHedd today. Said I should ask you. I have a technical interest in what has been happening here at FDL regarding the conversion. Would it be an invasion of privacy to ask for details of issues encountered and software acquired? Also, I'm wondering if this new stuff might be too expensive for the Moms. Could we little people help a little?
california_reality_check |
03.15.06 - 6:12 pm | #
Hard to believe there's only five senators so far in support?!?
Keep on 'em! I was on hold at Sen. Wyden's office for five minutes this morning because of the call volume.
Not only will I attend to whether he signs on in support, but how long it takes him to do so.
The meter's running, Ron . . .
oregondave |
03.15.06 - 6:12 pm | #
cup - She is rught behind you ALL the way to the bank.
california_reality_check |
03.15.06 - 6:15 pm | #
MoveOn got its mailing list on the Censure Case. Today I got a mailing from "Pride at Work", organized labors LGBT group. They are faxing Senators upon request... More liberal groups will also turn on their automated outreach systems. It's building !
John Conyers is catching the wave too. He sent out a mailing for folk to get on his original Censure resolution in the House...
Wilson46201 |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 6:16 pm | #
And speaking of Tim "we can do better" Kaine; did y'all hear that he and a couple of other specially selected Governors were chosen by the DoD to be secretly whisked away to visit the troops Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan? Hm?
Dru |
03.15.06 - 6:16 pm | #
I had the same basic thoughts about Feingold today. He's not a dummy.
What went through his mind when he was considering whether to go ahead and propose the censure or to first check with other Democratic Senators.
My hunch is: it took him no more than 15 or 20 seconds to realize what he had to do.
Who's showing leadership skills here? Who's the most Presidential-looking on this subject now among the Dems? It's happening quickly.
Slothrop |
03.15.06 - 6:16 pm | #
I asked about Menendez in an earlier thread -he doesn't have any real 'cover' or patron in the Senate, so I was thinking they are using him as a trial balloon - just like the Repubs tried w/ Jean Schit
newest member, SOP< blah blah blah
so, how is it playing in New Jersey ?
cbl |
03.15.06 - 6:16 pm | #
Wilson46201 | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 6:16 pm |
Is that the "Democratic Response Team" Jane was talking about?
Constant |
03.15.06 - 6:17 pm | #
"Together We Can Do Better" - gods how I hate that wimpy little phrase!! Arrrggg!!!
How about "We will throw out the law-breaking motherfuckers and then actually *catch* some terrorists". The Nixonites in BushCo haven't done shit about real terrorists. Why aren't the dems calling them on that?
Markinsanfran |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 6:18 pm | #
Menendez is not a beginner. He is a tough political fighter, having won many elections. He had spent years in the House -- he just transferred to the other side of the Hill...
Wilson46201 |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 6:18 pm | #
The Digby diagnosis is right on as usual. Only four or five Dems with enough guts to back "Forward Feingold" or the Badger, or whatever nickname he gets.
Even the ones who didn't like what he did, they should have had the sense to give "Russ the Ready" some cover and go after the Bushites. As Digby said, a goold old pol would know how to do that. Especially after BushCo started the standard smear and distortion job against "Guts" Feingold.
But my goodness, I read someplace that some Dem consultant said that things weren't properly prepared yet. After almost five years of these 100% bad news gents?
Wesgpc |
03.15.06 - 6:19 pm | #
based on how the Democratic party has acted during the past 5 years, I can see why alot of gays still keep registered as Republicans.. there doesn't appear to be much difference. Actually it might actually be better for gays to continue withint the GOP to try to push back whatever they can versus complete rollover from the Dems.
steve talbert |
03.15.06 - 6:19 pm | #
Feingold announces on Sunday that he is going to offer a censure resolution on Monday.
The Dems had all the time in the world to figure out how to respond. What we say was a planned response --- they ducked.
Until recently I was on the faculty at Harvard University. As you may have heard, the President made some intemperate remarks, and the faculty held a "no confidence" vote in his leadership. [Not the time and place to discuss the actual controversy. Entirely beside the point here.]
When we went into the room before the vote, I think it's fair to say that pretty much nobody thought that motion had any chance of passing. The sponsors were consistently accused of grandstanding. The faculty who introduced the vote publicly said beforehand they expected to lose with about one-third the vote.
As you may have heard, the sponsors put it out there, and it passed. And now, a year later, the aforementioned president is gone. [Again, whether you agree with this result is beside the point.]
The situations are not perfectly analagous (for instance, secret vs. open ballot.) And I'm not a wild-eyed optimist that thinks this proves that George W will be gone in a year if we just stand up to him. But there is a useful lesson.
When you stand up for what you think is the right thing to do, and put it out there, all sorts of crazy things can happen. And some of them succeed beyond what you could reasonably have hoped for.
Just thought we could all use a happy example :)
Professor Foland |
03.15.06 - 6:26 pm | #
paul lukasiak --
EXACTLY!!! Every single Senator SHOULD BE monitoring the Sunday morning programs, and Feingold gives them a 24+ hour head start on the resolution.
Cripes, I'm blown away at their slowness and inability to see a telegraph. I want to lose faith, would be so easy, but I have kids and they need me to fight this complacency, this sleepwalking torpor. Time for a fresh batch of faxes.
By the way: does anyone have a link to any article that documents Kerry's and Menendez' support for the resolution? Need them for a local party website, trying to make the ironclad case for complacent locals to get off their butts and call their Senators. Thanks.
Rayne |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 6:26 pm | #
Democrats have lost touch with their political instincts.
That is so not true -- the very notion that Democrats have political instincts to lose is an oxymoron.
Democrats used to have political instincts -- but other than Russ Finegold, none of the Beltway Dems seems to have a frickking clue.
ck |
03.15.06 - 6:26 pm | #
Holy shit, 202 comments on the Clooney Incident? Somebody anywhere let's get our shit together, wasting energy among allies in wartime against fascism
Sharkbabe |
03.15.06 - 6:26 pm | #
I've got a question maybe someone around here can answer...
Seems to me the CW was that Rock-a-fellow and the Democratic leadership decided to put DiFi on the spygate subcommittee, a snub to Feingold.
But is there any evidence that is true? It seems equally -- possibly even more -- likely that Feingold was asked and said "yeah, right." Why would he dream of being party to that subversion of justice?
I think the Democratic leadership isn't being truthful when they claim this caught them off-guard. How could they be this unaware?
And any claims they are making that this somehow distracts from other priorities and scandals are demonstrably false.
So... anybody know conclusively one way or the other about Feingold and that stupid subcommittee?
Dover Bitch |
03.15.06 - 6:27 pm | #
OT, but not entirely
I read Greenwald's piece on Kevin Drum after Jane or RH linked it (somewhere!?). Sounds like Drum is an enemy from within, but I don't know much about him.. except that he sounds like a beltway insider whose advice (if he's a "Dem") is the sort of thing Feingold is Not swallowing... not meaning to imply that Feingold ever listens to the guy. Anyway, I don't know if Kevin Drum has any kind of real influence-- if so, seems like he would be a great target for an "educational" FDL late night contest.
Valley Girl |
03.15.06 - 6:27 pm | #
Kevin Drum is a well-meaning muddled 'liberal' - i think it is fuzziness, not malevolence. he isnt the brightest bulb on the tree...
Wilson46201 |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 6:29 pm | #
ccmask - here's hoping you have the sight. ;-)
Can you get a pic of Feingold in the Oval Office while you are at it?
Here's something I do wonder about, bc it has bothered me so much. The Prosecutor who was pulled off the Abramoff investigation (Black).
I haven't seen anyone doing or saying much on this, although I thought I read a little while back that there were some investigators in Guam looking into Abramoff related matters (or course, there were the matters Black had been investigating - in addition to him being pulled off)
I just have to wonder what would happen if, on the 29th, Abramoff were to tie Rove to having Black pulled off. Wishful thinking?
I have to believe that surely that would get someone's attention?
Oh well, a girl can dream.
John Casper - great letter below. Kudos.
After looking at the Pew Poll, I was just that much more perplexed over the Dems who won't back Feingold. Not so much the abysmal numbers. More the descriptions.
Three of the top four one were descriptions people were using for GWB were Incompetent, Idiot an Liar.
Now - in the context of giving him the right to violate the Fourth Amendment and break the law, don't the Dems realize that most people see him as:
1. Too incompetent to pick the right phones to tap;
2. Too much of an idiot to do anything worthwhile with the information; and
3. Too likely to be lieing when he says its only an "al-Qaeda calling" program.
?
Final note - on the child porn convctions. It is a horrible situation and I am glad they have a crew together and are getting convictions and closing some things down. I read the USA today story. I was ok, except for the picture of Gonzales. How sad that when I saw that and the headline, I had to try to think of something other than Gonzale's toppick Yoo and his thoughts on crushing a child's testicles in front of their parent.
There is so little that is not tainted in this White House. *s*
Mary |
03.15.06 - 6:29 pm | #
ccmask | 03.15.06 - 6:24 pm |
OK, so I didn't realize that Gonzalez was such a fine friend of yours.
Does that mean you're
A. With the rebellion against the Constituion; or
B. You're just pretending to be with the RNC, but you like to defend the Constitution?
Maybe the DNC fast reponse team can get some "really good advice" from Gozalez-loser-chimp head.
Constant |
03.15.06 - 6:30 pm | #
why are governors visiting the troops? why are we paying for that?
i'll take fitz' eyebrow over kaine's anyday.
angie |
03.15.06 - 6:31 pm | #
Digby is way off base on this one. I think the Democrats are ready to go to war with Wilson against the Kaiser. All they need is a little more time to get used to the idea.
Hugh |
03.15.06 - 6:31 pm | #
http://political.moveon.org/censure/ (click here if you haven't signed moveon's petition to support Feingold's censure resolution)
Neal |
03.15.06 - 6:32 pm | #
Two questions for the group:
1. How do we make Dems stop using the "but there's an investigation" excuse? I heard it today from Murray's office and have seen it too fucking many times in the last 48 hours. The lack of investigation is what pissed Feingold off enough that he felt the need to push for censure.
2. Just asking for a quick reality check., but was today's call volume to Senate offices the result of just the censure issue or were there other large groups calling about issues in the budget resolution?
RBG |
03.15.06 - 6:32 pm | #
I love Fitz. While the neo-cons make excuses about being allowed to out CIA agents, he's busting child porn rings.
But the press conference with Abu must have been nteresting. "Psst, chief - thanks for supporting me busting these evil f**ks, but where the hell are the WH emails I requested? Huh?"
narexbyrnes |
03.15.06 - 6:34 pm | #
Feingold knows which side his bread is buttered on - and it ain't with the Vichy Dems.
Why the hell should he have given them any kind of heads up? Each time he tries to rally them around the cause of guts, integrity and leadership, they cower like little girls. Patriot Act reauthorization? They screwed him, and us at the same time. He probably figured he only needs one or two betrayals from those jackasses, before he takes the lead and somes out in defense of the U.S. constitution on our behalf. They're too busy figuring out how to raise more corporate $ for their re-elections.
They don't deserve any warning.
shoephone |
03.15.06 - 6:34 pm | #
Sharkbabe; of the 202 many were kindly remarks regarding toast; there was also an offer regarding employment. I believe we are back on task now, for the most part.
Dru |
03.15.06 - 6:35 pm | #
OT: and just how did the US benefit from going to war with the Kaiser or the King? An absolute total waste of resources. WW1 will find few defenders nowadays...
Wilson46201 |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 6:35 pm | #
What Democratic Party would he have consulted when even Reid and Pelosi can't even hit the same talking points?
Nancy in NYC |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 6:35 pm | #
Sorry to come back so soon, but I'm so steamed and all. IMO this is more than just whining that the Dems don't do whatever political activists and old time party precinct workers, etc, suddently decide they should do.
Cheney, the more abject Presidential Scotty, Frist, Mehlmann, the usual crew, started smearing the Dems with the usual accusations of sympathizing with terrorists, declaring the US President the enemy, and crap like that qs soon as Rampaging Russ introduced the censure. Potentially very damaging false smears for the upcoming election, too, by the way.
And Feingold made it clear that the censure was about Bush not following the law, and not following it for no good reason at all, and for potentially spying on US Citizens that had nothing to do with terrorism.
So, I think, that after BushCo started their usual smear campaign, every Dem office holder should have hit back at that hard. Regardless of whether they thought Fearless Feingold did just the right thing at just the right time in just the right way, or not.
That is a matter of simple self-respect. The Dems flunked that test again. Am I just a whining? Well, if you see these joke Democrats doing things over and over again that I think is very damaging to their chances in the next election, yeah, I guess I am just whining.
I guess all the doorbells I rang, and phone calls I made, and late nights busting ass getting people to polls was just whining too. I guess it was. They want me to help them come election time, maybe they should act like a political party that exists once in awhile and doesn't just sit there an allow itself to be defamed over and over again with no organized response at all.
Thanks for the inside info the Harvard/ Summers episode(s). I followed the whole controversy closely from the get go because I took Summers' insults personally.
Your point is an excellent one- and one that many people have voiced in different ways here at FDL. That is what got to me about the Kevin Drum article- the idea that Dems shouldn't fight battles unless they are sure they can win... this is total nonsense. Everytime someone stands up to fight- win or lose based on principles the ground gets shifted just a little, at the very least.
Valley Girl |
03.15.06 - 6:35 pm | #
Together We Can Do Better.
Seriously, whoever came up with this worse than nothing pap, and whoever else sat around in a room with other actual grownup humans who can read and write, in the year 2005/6, having beheld years now of the absolute and total Bushco Ruination Train -
I am not kidding, somebody give me a gun.
Sharkbabe |
03.15.06 - 6:35 pm | #
sharkbabe said "Holy shit, 202 comments on the Clooney Incident? Somebody anywhere let's get our shit together, wasting energy among allies in wartime against fascism"
snip
Don't worry Sharkbabe, 181 of them were constant's.....
ccmask |
03.15.06 - 6:36 pm | #
Disagree here. But it seems like I am in the minority.
When actions are fueled by emotions rather than reasoning, not always the best outcome.
Timely article today that approaches just this subject:
I was aware of Menendez's background- just found it interesting that Dems not even facing re election are running from Russ, and this guy is willing to risk his shiny new Senate seat ?
And my limited understanding tells me the most junior member is the likely candidate for testing the winds ( lord knows our Dems never do that ) Regardless of what's behind it, I applaud the guy heartily, jes wonderin'
btw, he was appointed by Corzine, so he is facing reelection, right?
cbl |
03.15.06 - 6:37 pm | #
OH MY FUCKING GOD
Bush to unveil new national security strategy
WASH. POST WEDS: As Bush drops to 33 percent in new poll (story), he will unveil a new national security strategy, focusing on "pre- emptive war against terrorists and hostile states with chemical, biological or nuclear weapons, despite the troubled in Iraq."
The democratic response is just nonsense. After Lewinsky and all these years of republican lawlessness, censure should have been at the tip of every democratic tongue in the country. Why don't they just come out and say it: "No one could have foreseen a censure resolution."
BullGoose |
03.15.06 - 6:38 pm | #
Oh, what a bunch of whiners. Feingold's censure resolution caught them off guard and is distracting them from...well, what, exactly? Their probing investigation of the warrantless wiretapping? Keeping radical right-wingers off the Supreme Court? Protecting a woman's right to choose? Getting our young men and women out of Iraq? Closing down Gitmo?
Memo to Dems: We (your base) don't see you doing much beyond cowering under your desks. If you aren't going to support Russ's resolution, could you please tell us what, precisely, you don't agree with in it? It's only a few pages long. Just point to the part that you think isn't on the mark.
Frank Probst |
03.15.06 - 6:38 pm | #
Oh and I like it here in the old familiar digs, I don't like the new place at all, it's cold, have I mentioned that.
Sharkbabe |
03.15.06 - 6:39 pm | #
the man thinks he is the person that is to be the usher of the biblical rapture
me to me |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 6:39 pm | #
It has been suggested (and I've done it myself) that any email you receive from the DNC, the DCCC or any other Democratic fundraising plea be met with "When you support the Feingold Resolution, then I'll support you."
I gotta tell you -- it feels pretty damned good.
watertiger |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 6:40 pm | #
yup - Menendez is up for election this fall, i believe. If he thought he might lose the vote, he certainly wouldnt have signed on with the Censure Resolution. NJ tends liberal so an anti-Bush thingie wouldnt hurt.
Wilson46201 |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 6:40 pm | #
"Could it be that Democrats are finally emboldened against a President with a 33% approval rating?"
Naahh!
I have been railing against "Gentle Ken" Salazar - US Senate (Casper Milktoast Party) Colorado - for several years.
The sad part is, his brother, John Salazar (CM Party - Colorado 3rd Congressional district) is my US Representative.
Catholic culture of guilt emasculates again!
Mac in Colo |
03.15.06 - 6:40 pm | #
Don't worry Sharkbabe, 181 of them were constant's.....
ha ha
good.
my inner Pach reflexively says, eyes on the prize people
Sharkbabe |
03.15.06 - 6:41 pm | #
me to me | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 6:37 pm | #
pride goeth before the fall and he's falling. not helpful, but the part of the world that isn't weeping, is chuckling. too bad most of us are weeping.......
angie |
03.15.06 - 6:41 pm | #
Wesgpc - I thnk that Jon Stewart's take last night with Paul Hackett made the very same point. Funny, in the Stranger in a Strange Land sense of funny.
:-)/:-(
Together We Can Do Better
looking over shoulder
Can I admit that sometimes I've done better alone?
Mary |
03.15.06 - 6:41 pm | #
Good idea, watertiger.
jane hamher |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 6:42 pm | #
WW1 will find few defenders nowadays...
Wilson46201 | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 6:35 pm |
If there had been no WWI, then WWII would have WWI and everyone would have been confused.
Hugh |
03.15.06 - 6:42 pm | #
YAY! Judith Miller is back in the news. God I missed her. Actually, I missed both Jane and Arianna's posts about Lil' Judy.
It has been suggested (and I've done it myself) that any email you receive from the DNC, the DCCC... be met with "When you support the Feingold Resolution, then I'll support you."
watertiger | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 6:40 pm | #
Shit. Now I gotta go through the garbage.
BullGoose |
03.15.06 - 6:44 pm | #
Conyers has 30 cosponsors for his call to investigate impeachable offenses - I'd like to see us offer him the same support we're giving to Feingold and censure.
Watching Marcos on KO - nice to see him interviewed but disturbing, esp today, to hear him say we can wait until 2008 to get rid of Bush ... the same day we learned tht 5 Iraqi children were shot in the head by US troops
to me the salient point is that the Dems, having followed the *strategists'* direction have lost the White House after 8 years of virtually unparalleled economic growth, faild to regain it four years later when anyone paying attention could see that the Republican's were ineffective and executing poorly.
Now, after the President admits committing a crime on National television, high level staffers are being indicted and arrested, the war is going down the tubes, two 'rogue nations' are flaunting nuclear arms...
mack |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 6:45 pm | #
to add insult to injury, W is transferring 'temporarily' 800 additional troops into Iraq...
Wilson46201 |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 6:46 pm | #
Pointing out the obvious....Isn't the senate minority "leader" supposed to lead? I miss Tom Daschle, who by the way, coached Harry Reid on invoking Rule 21 late last year.
Cozumel |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 6:47 pm | #
10 million? My god, her breasts will require their own zip code if she keeps this up.
watertiger |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 6:47 pm | #
Thanks Dru also re last thread - I just can't stand the idea of wasting one iota of energy on infighting given what we're up against - it's insane - the powers of every one of us, celebrity or nobody, must be totally engaged in the real fight.
Sharkbabe |
03.15.06 - 6:48 pm | #
in addition to Grandpa's money, Katherine Harris' husband is a wealthy appliance importer -- both are multimillionaires.
Wilson46201 |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 6:49 pm | #
Yeah I hope we can kick Katherine Harris to the curb.
She was on Hannity just now. She plans to spend 10 million of her own money that her father left her for the Senate race. She is staying in.
RBG, wrt your questions
"1. How do we make Dems stop using the "but there's an investigation" excuse?"
IMO the dynamic is this: Feingold states:“No one questions whether the government should wiretap suspected terrorists. Of course we should, and we can under current law.”
WaPo and Bloomberg frame the Censure resolution as a "debate on terror."
Where's the debate on terror?
IMO it's the unbelieveable lack of traction in the media on this issue that causes the lemmings to hesitate. That's no excuse, they're all grown-ups. This is the goddamned U.S. Constitution, we're talking about, not to mention the "rule of law."
You asked "2. Just asking for a quick reality check., but was today's call volume to Senate offices the result of just the censure issue or were there other large groups calling about issues in the budget resolution."
RBG, as per usual I think you nailed it, although I forgot about it until I read your questions. Mimikatz had a great post about this over at tnh
"Senate punts on rising debts" http://
thenexthurrah.typepad.com...n.html#comments
I suspect a lot of Senators spent a lot more of Sunday afternoon on this budget vote than they did on Feingold's Censure resolution. I think the vote is tomorrow, and then I think they recess for St. Patrick's day recess.
John Casper |
03.15.06 - 6:51 pm | #
My god, her breasts will require their own zip code if she keeps this up.
Gotta catch up on the tred and don't know what this is in regard to (KH?), but you LOL me anyway wt
Sharkbabe |
03.15.06 - 6:51 pm | #
siun -those links just depressed the hell out me.
I am very glad you posted the gorillasguides - I had lost that link. I have to hope that the story of the 11 killings is wrong, but I just have no faith left.
I really do have to wonder if Pace's "no" response to the evidence of Iran as supplier is bc Bush really is pushing to start something and it's the Gen's "still small voice" trying mild dissausion?
Mary |
03.15.06 - 6:53 pm | #
So any takers on my question? Does anybody have evidence that the Dems didn't ask Feingold to be on that Intelligence subcommittee... or evidence that they did and told them to stick it?
Dover Bitch |
03.15.06 - 6:53 pm | #
are we sure the nagging Constant isn't the nagging Stanley Rosenthal?? :lol:
They sound identical in their repetitiveness.
elroy |
03.15.06 - 6:54 pm | #
She plans to spend 10 million of her own money that her father left her for the Senate race. She is staying in.
Yeah and yeah. Give it to me baby.
Sharkbabe |
03.15.06 - 6:54 pm | #
was anybody able to open that story about bush's new national security blitzkrieg? I couldn't get it to open--anybody have a link to the story itself?
The Copy Desk |
03.15.06 - 6:55 pm | #
Wilson 46201-- I cried/gagged when i read this today.
U.S. to send extra soldiers to Iraq for Iraqi holiday
Sounds like they were invited, eh?
(from USA today)
angie |
03.15.06 - 6:55 pm | #
Thought you'd get a kick out of this, from new court documents.
In arguing for keeping classified information away from the defense, Fitzgerald has noted in court papers that the underlying criminal activity Libby is charged with is the failure to adequately safeguard sensitive classified information. AP 3/15/06
A political oracle once said: "Leadership is defined as figuring out where the people want to go, and getting out in front of them."
Feingold knows how to lead. It just takes the tick, tick, tick of time.
An elephant is eaten just one bite at a time.
Mac in Colo |
03.15.06 - 6:59 pm | #
Dover B - I think the entire Congress is the mad hatter's tea party at this point. Feingold is saying fuck this shit.
Sharkbabe |
03.15.06 - 6:59 pm | #
I suggest we all keep a close eye on this report about bushies "new" national security policy" Pre-emptive means we start bombing the hell out of the rest of the middle east...and could see other unspecified bad things coming down the pike....tip of hat to 'Me'
snuffy |
03.15.06 - 7:00 pm | #
I got a mailing from the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee today asking for a donation. I used their postage paid envelope to send them a note telling them that after I got their mailing I went online and gave my money to Feingold's Progressive Patriots Fund where it will do more good.
I am not kidding, somebody give me a gun.
Sharkbabe | 03.15.06 - 6:35 pm | #
here honey, it's only a 410, but it should work on those squirrels
Together We Can Do Better
hey, have you tried this New Coke ?
cbl |
03.15.06 - 7:03 pm | #
Pelosi stepped out for a lunch break from which she has never returned.
I like Feingold's move all the more now that it's clear he didn't get permission from all the old fogheads. Russ wants to put on his own pj's, thank God.
meta |
03.15.06 - 7:04 pm | #
Sharkbabe, I think you are right. Just wondering if anybody can say for sure. Seems like everybody was complaining that he didn't get asked to be on it.
I really shake my head when I see Democrats pointing out that most Americans feel the country is on the wrong track. Do they think that doesn't include them? This idea that they can sit back and watch the Republicans screw up -- at no cost to them or any of the rest of us -- is myopic and entirely lazy.
Feingold seems to be one of the only people who gets it.
Dover Bitch |
03.15.06 - 7:06 pm | #
I hadn’t actually seen Katherine Harris for quite a while and just had to take a peak during her Hannity show tonight. Forget the silicon, what I found fascinating was how appropriate that Katherine Helmond/Brazil graphic was that was used here last week.
RBG |
03.15.06 - 7:06 pm | #
Feingold knows how to lead. It just takes the tick, tick, tick of time.
Speaking of leadership, when I called Sen. Harkin's office today to confirm that he was backing censure and then to thank him for it, I asked the staffer to tell him he is a leader, a patriot and a good Democrat. Of course, Feingold is the real leader here, but it looks like Harkin broke the ice in terms of backing him. As near as I could tell.
The Copy Desk |
03.15.06 - 7:06 pm | #
Hugh at 6:31 -- took me 3 reads to understand, but that is ROTFLM*O. It was the word Kaiser that finally make the lighbulb go off.
GrandmaJ |
03.15.06 - 7:07 pm | #
Pelosi bugs me more and more-- she panders and does not answer serious questions when put to her. I understand that the House rules are fractured, but she giggles and licks her lips more than she speaks out. there, i said it.
I heard a report on tv today describing K. Harris as glamorous..........huh?
angie |
03.15.06 - 7:08 pm | #
How The Fuck Could We Do Worse
BullGoose |
03.15.06 - 7:08 pm | #
our society is so goddamn fucking corrupt - K Harris on a horse putting forth her ridiculous dumbass tit job - she should have been shunned forever by all civilized people five years ago
Sharkbabe |
03.15.06 - 7:09 pm | #
Does anyone know why Kennedy is not supporting Feingold? Has he given any indication at all?
walkingg |
03.15.06 - 7:09 pm | #
elroy | 03.15.06 - 6:54 pm | #
they sound like fucking moonies or scientologists
I know it's just letters jammed togther on my screen but can you say affect: flat ?
INAL, but I question any assertion that the authority of the Review Court of the FISA Court allows ruling on sweeping permanent conditions like "inherent authority" to bypass any need to apply for a warrant. Something about that doesn't pass the smell test.
I understand the purpose of the Review Court is to rule on a case by case basis if ever needed, not to render invalid the very function of the court whose cases it reviews.
.
Muzzy |
03.15.06 - 7:11 pm | #
Over the next week, if we keep it up, I would not be surprised to pick off a couple more cosigners to censure.
They will come in small bits at first, and it will take some time.
And don't get me fucking started on Pelosi.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 7:12 pm | #
Any of the 19 so-called Dem Senators that backed a proposal to censure Clinton that do NOT back Feingold's proposal to censure Shrub ("hi there, Joe!") should be "excommunicated" from the Democratic party. There is no difference between them and any (other) Republican. Any (of us) who have these Senators representing them should give the Senator a piece of our mind -- which would triple their IQ!!!
sonate |
03.15.06 - 7:13 pm | #
You know, I don't know why. Must be 'cuz I'm tired.
But I just got the joke with the graphic for this post.
at worst, we will have about as many Democrats on board for Censure as we had for the filibuster...most likely the identical Senators too!
Wilson46201 |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 7:14 pm | #
Seen elsewhere:
People will vote for an incompetent corrupt leader over an incompetent corrupt follower any day.
hmmmmmmm.
pollyusa - what I liked about the link was it shows just how much Cheney is really involved.
When they criticized the prosecution for speaking out of both sides of its mouth is when I knew.
Who, beside Cheney and The Penquin do you know that only uses ONE side of their mouth to speak?
Also, they're a bunch of control freaks and we upset their little strategy.
Enough! DLC Bu-bye.
Who are the geniuses behind the scenes? Who are these "consultants" and why do these losers call the shots?
I get 2 fundraisers today from the DCCC today, one with a letter from Pelosi, one with a letter from Hilary, asking for support ! and not WORD ONE about Russ. Id say the DCCC is leaking front-group ooze right about now.
Whatever leverage can be obtained over the situation has clearly got to be seized focibly.
Splash |
03.15.06 - 7:15 pm | #
Jeez...we in the blogosphere knew about this days in advance. If the Dem leadership didn't know about it then something is the matter with them and their "intelligence" gathering. If they didn't know, they are out of touch with what is going on in the street and if they were in touch, then they were being passive-aggressoids for not calling Feingold up and talking with him.
I think that Dean knows/knew the energy that is out here in Blog-i-stan. I think Senator Feingold knows. Maybe a handful of other others. Those that don't understand what is happening out here, ignore it at their peril.
mayan |
03.15.06 - 7:16 pm | #
do you think that the plastic surgeons attached the perma lift to Katherine's new boobies to her right eyebrow and cruel lips? I heard somebody on today tv say she was "the glamorous Katherine Harris" huh? http://www.mikeditto.com/
archive...rine_harris.jpg
angie |
03.15.06 - 7:18 pm | #
OT but mentioned on a previous thread re: the problems with the budget bill and having different versions. Interesting article, tho not sure what to make of it, since the author is from AEI. ==="Founded in 1943, the American Enterprise Institute is today the single most influential think tank in America and the country's main bastion of neoconservatism.=== http://rightweb.irc-online.org/p...rg/profile/
1431
http://www.rollcall.com/issues/ornstein/
===Will Scalia Blow the Whistle on This Constitutional Farce?
To those unfamiliar with the issue and controversy, the House and Senate passed a major budget bill by the narrowest of margins in both chambers, including a tie-breaking vote in the Senate case by Vice President Cheney, but it turned out that the bill passed the House and Senate in different forms.
This was not simply a transcription error, a misplaced comma or a misspelled word — something that would be plenty serious — but a $2 billion discrepancy that arose over a last-minute compromise between the two chambers over the time allowed for the rental of medical equipment for Medicare patients. After the House had passed its version and the discrepancy became known, Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) unilaterally changed the House bill to match the Senate’s and then sent it on to President Bush, which he signed to great fanfare.
But a seventh-grade civics student who has done his or her homework would immediately know that what the president signed is not a law. Laws, as Article 1, Section 7 of the Constitution makes clear, must pass both chambers of Congress in identical form and then be signed by the president....
Hastert and Frist are unlikely to budge, despite Democrats’ fulminations on the issue. But a suit has been filed by a private citizen contesting the act’s legality. It may get to the Supreme Court. If it does, we will see how strict Scalia’s adherence is to his own professed judicial philosophy — and what term he would apply to leaders who don’t understand that the Constitution says something and doesn’t say other things.===
Valley Girl |
03.15.06 - 7:18 pm | #
I think York needs heap big haircut.
BTW - when you call your Senators asking them to sign on, ask yourself: Did I sign on as a citizen co-sponsor?
I hope we're in a thing here people, with Feingold. He's a handsome articulate motherfucker. Against the war, against the Patriot Act, against the whole Drunky & Dickhead Let's Ruin Our Nation Industrial Complex.
A (totally battered) nation turns its lonely eyes...
Let's make this guy happen.
I've seen at Digby comments and Left Coaster this person starting a movement to flood Feingold's WI offices with snail mail love and also small bucks, just to make a show. I've done it and if you haven't go to Left Coaster.
Sharkbabe |
03.15.06 - 7:20 pm | #
Me - Here is the article that I believe Rawstory was trying to link to from WaPo.
ANd remember, not that I am alone in this (it not all about me), but I have posted often about the Repugs having only one trick and why they only have one trick, so once again we are going to see that trick. But, the trick doesn't work once the audience knows how it works and that there really is no such thing as magic.
Rawstory just linked back to its homepage.
Feingold's strategy has been brilliant, no other word for it, all the vapor being spewed is just that - people in both parties with a spine to stand on. If other Dem's dont realize that not only is it the right thing to do, but that it is the winning thing to do, then they don't deserve our support.
Also, it may be off topic, but as a nom de weasel for Joementum, how about just plain little joe - and yes, the lower case is important. I'm thinking more Lou Reed ("little joe never once gave it away, everybody had to pay and pay, a hustle here and a hustle there......") than Bonanza, but either way.
Consider me agnostic on Clooney/Huffington. I do have opinions on it, of course, I'm a universe after all, but still, there seem like better issues to devote a lot of energy to.
Evil Parallel Universe |
03.15.06 - 7:20 pm | #
a) everybody realized Gephardt was on his way out
b) she's a she - and they wanted to make a point
c) she had been a good fighter in the 2000-2004 years, proving how weak Gephardt had become after House Dems were now spending years in the wilderness post-Contract w/ Amer.
But there's a differnece between being a great bo'sun, and being the captain of the ship. IMO she's still so wowed that she got the top spot, and so afraid of losing corporate financing, she forgot that she was supposed to lead. And there are male dems in the House who were pissed she got the leadership role, they connive behind her back.
Russ is a leader. Reid is not. And Pelosi is at heart a follower. And apparently, so are all the other dems, minus the five who have dared to stand with Russ.
shoephone |
03.15.06 - 7:26 pm | #
Money quote from Armando:
What we must NOT do is what too many in the blogs are already doing - declaring defeat; calling Dems cowards and worse; condemning them instead of cajoling them.
When we do this we declare defeat TODAY! IF we have lost already, there is no chance of success a week from now, a month from now. Senator Feingold has welcomed the fact that his resolution will be taken up in the Judiciary Committee. We should also. We should understand that only the first act of this drama has unfolded. There is more to come.
Declaring defeat NOW let's them off the hook now. It's not a question of trusting them, as one friend of mine wrote to me today. It's a question of understanding and thinking about what will be most effective in bringing pressure to bear on them in the battle to come.
I submit that declaring them a lost cause TODAY is not only not effective in this fight, it is harmful. Before we decry the defeatism of our Democratic officials it is best that we avoid it ourselves.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 7:27 pm | #
Feindude & censure pickin up steam, ever so gradually. Every single shred of steam is HUGE in this neocon chimp shut-up-&-die-peasant soviet political culture.
Sharkbabe |
03.15.06 - 7:28 pm | #
Katherine Harris is staying in!
Just when I was starting to think there was no G*d...
The state of our nation: a corrupt Congresswoman who stole our country's presidential election is running for Senate, and that's the good news.
Professor Foland |
03.15.06 - 7:28 pm | #
Democrats' real slogan: Together, we can do nothing.
Cujo359 |
03.15.06 - 7:29 pm | #
These days, I never see Mrs. Harris without thinking of the late Great Charles Pierce as Bette Davis
cbl |
03.15.06 - 7:30 pm | #
I feel like Reid is running out of gas or something. What did happen to the Dem rapid response team?
molee |
03.15.06 - 7:31 pm | #
What we must NOT do is what too many in the blogs are already doing - declaring defeat; calling Dems cowards and worse; condemning them instead of cajoling them.
If I may: STFU, Armando.
watertiger |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 7:31 pm | #
"But I just got the joke with the graphic for this post."
Agree, I was laughing before I started reading.
John Casper |
03.15.06 - 7:32 pm | #
It's a question of understanding and thinking about what will be most effective in bringing pressure to bear on them in the battle to come.
Sorry, I'm getting heated up all over again, but this "keeping the powder dry" argument is really tiresome.
watertiger |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 7:34 pm | #
watertiger:
I'm surprised by your reaction, and so I'm curious.
I'd be happy to hear more of what you think.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 7:35 pm | #
watertiger | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 7:34 pm | #
I don't know, but maybe I did his diary a disservice by pulling one part out, without the rest of his context. Maybe not.
But I'm still interested in your thoughts.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 7:36 pm | #
siun, Mary, others, wrt the 5 Iraqi children, it is an important talking point that Dana Priest made several weeks ago in one of her WaPo online chats. We are creating a lot more "terrorists" than we are killing, according to all the intelligence people she talks with.
I don't like the word "terrorist," but we continue to give people more and more reasons to really really hate us.
John Casper |
03.15.06 - 7:36 pm | #
narexbyrnes | 03.15.06 - 6:34 pm | #
100% right, I thought I saw Fitz with Abu Cucaracha Gonzo...
Harry |
03.15.06 - 7:37 pm | #
omg - pelosi - because of gephardt - god I'd forgetten his inept name - these names - daschle - etc etc
all of them sitting around producer Karl's table with their scripts, hoping to do their best work for this project of Karl's
jesus the fucking fuck
Sharkbabe |
03.15.06 - 7:37 pm | #
Who, beside Cheney and The Penquin do you know that only uses ONE side of their mouth to speak?
Mary | 03.15.06 - 7:15 pm | #
Edward G. Robinson? “Ahhh, whadaya think a your Moses nowwwww” ... Must be a gangster thing.
BullGoose |
03.15.06 - 7:37 pm | #
Pachacutec,
So Armando is saying that pointing out defeatism is, in itself defeatist? Isn't Armando being a double-secret-super defeatist by claiming blogs are being defeatest about defeatism... :)
He may be right, but some of us (me) are tired of feeling like the party leaders are a bunch of school children who need to be sweet-talked into doing their f'ing jobs and defending the f'ing Constitution.
Watched "Glengarry Glenross" last night... great line (of many) by Al Pacino:
YOUR EXCUSES ARE YOUR OWN!
That column Digby referenced was just a litany of bullshit excuses, a few of which directly contradict one another.
They wanted to use this week to tout their new ports initiative... and they planned on pivoting away from the ports issue.
Not buying any of it.
Dover Bitch |
03.15.06 - 7:37 pm | #
neurophius | 03.15.06 - 7:25 pm | #
she should have stuck with that look and aged gracefully and even with a little help, i have no problem with that. but she gave in to her inner demons and the wish to dominate the ill informed and her face is way twisted and her enhancement is fine for those that care about that sort of thing. but hey, ugly creeps out in amazing ways, especially when you're a millionaire rethug intent on taking your country on a hellish ride by your own notoriety.
angie |
03.15.06 - 7:39 pm | #
Armando quotes diby in his diary and gives him full props.
Do me a personal favor, because I'm really interested in everyone's thoughts:
Read the whole armando diary, if you have not already. Then please come back and educate me.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 7:39 pm | #
look at the timing! tonight is just Wednesday night - Feingold dropped this Censure bombshell around noon on Sunday. We just started calling on Monday morning. Five have flipped already and more will. Things are percolating in DC... Congress is taking a 'district work break' in a coupla days. They will be hearing from the voters back home. More will flip. the Preznit's got 1000 days left in his term - censure will become an issue!
Wilson46201 |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 7:40 pm | #
Pach,
Given what I read, it sounds like Armando is telling us to play nice. We've all seen what playing nice gets us.
The deafening silence that met Feingold's speech on Tuesday set me off (so much so that I actually WROTE a post about it! With just ONE photo!). The Democrats have consistently rolled over and exposed their bellies to this Administration, and while Armando is not suggesting we do that, it sounds like he's extolling the virtues of the high road.
It doesn't work.
Maybe I'm completely off-base here, but you're talking about a President with a 33% approval rating running an incredibly unpopular war, and we're supposed to play nice.
watertiger |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 7:40 pm | #
I feel like Reid is running out of gas or something. What did happen to the Dem rapid response team?
Yeah and what happened to that phase 2 investigation thingy he made such a stance about? Bullshit, total bullshit.
Feingold, people. Only thing happening.
He's handsome, America. What are we waiting for?
Sharkbabe |
03.15.06 - 7:41 pm | #
It's gettin a little nervous out there. Yesterday, Bush makes a speech claiming that the Iranians are supplying weapons for the insurgency in Iraq- and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs immediately steps up and contradicts him..
Tomorrow, Bush is goin to release a 49 page document reminding us that pre-emptive strikes are the policy of the nation- and mentioning Iran and North Korea..
The White House has been issuing a steady drumbeat of cries about Iran-
Tonight on Tweety- Buchanan and Tweety discuss the likelihood of a strike on Iran to raise Bush's poll numbers..
I'm starting to not like this A LOT.
rwcole |
03.15.06 - 7:42 pm | #
Valley Girl: I'm one of the folks who linked to the "two chambers, two budgets in one year" story. Ornstein is not a wingnut and has integrity. AEI was not always a shill for neocons and used to have much more integrity. Ornstein is from that side of AEI. The GOP is trying to call the discrepancy a typo. I think if Ornstein thinks it might be an issue, people should pay attention.
Hey, Colbert (or Daily Show) had Ornstein on and didn't make too much fun of him. And the ex Redd-Hedd, Ms. Christy Smith, linked to a report by him with a recommendation. He can't be too bad, even if rather conservative by my standards.
Wesgpc |
03.15.06 - 7:42 pm | #
Pat Buchanan on Hardball today said the Dem's "doing nothing" is a strategy in itself, and a good one, i.e. let the repugs implode. I agree with practically nothing he says policy wise but he's very savvy politically IMO.
Cozumel |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 7:42 pm | #
Well, we out our own operatives, we sell our ports to smuggling cartels, we get failing grades for terrorism preparedness, but in the name of national security we do manage to prevent those traitorous gays from getting security clearances, because clearly they'd sell out out to OBL without the slightest hesitation to further the global cause of rainbow pride... who the heck comes up with these policies?????
Associated Press | KATHERINE SHRADER | March 15, 2006 at 10:12 AM
The Bush administration last year quietly rewrote the rules for allowing gays and lesbians to receive national-security clearances, drawing complaints from civil rights activists.
Blub |
03.15.06 - 7:42 pm | #
watertiger: and who have just been vilely smeard *once again for the thousandth time* by a bunch of liars.
And they do not defend themselves or one of their own.
Wesgpc |
03.15.06 - 7:44 pm | #
Muzzy - York is laughably, unbelievably WRONG.
I know nothing about him, but please - someone tell me he is NOT a lawyer.
Please dear lord don't tell me someone got a license who doesn't even know dicta from - other things that start with d. ;)
BTW - the guy that DOJ had pretty much fill the Judiciary Committee in on In Re Sealed Case was Kris - the guy that the had the story about last week bc his emails (he had left DOJ and was/is with Time) with DOJ Atty (Elwood?) after the info came out in December were released under a FOIA request.
The article also said that he provided to journalists, when his emails came out, a legal memorandum.
In any event, the appellate decision that York relies upon a) did not actually address the President's rights independent from FISA to wiretap since that question was not before the court in any shape or fashion; b) could not have addressed the PResident's actual program bc IT was not before the court and the judges were not briefed on it; c) does not deal with the issue of the conflict between the PResident's inherent rights without enabling or limiting legislation v. teh PResident's rights when confined by on point legislation; d) define "foreign surveillance" which, in the only cases addressing it at lower levels have only involved surveillance of foreign nationals in the US - not surveillance of American citizens on American soil by an American Agency; and e) doesn't deal at all with Bill of Rights and Fourth Amendment arguments bc, once again - they were not in front of the court.
Here's a very lightweight surface explanation of what WAS at issue in the In Re Sealed Case case.
Bc the standards for getting a wiretap for "intelligence surveillance" under FISA were, in essence, easier and used a different analysis than the standards for getting a wiretap in a criminal investigation, there had been an issue as to whether or not the information obtained under an intel wiretap could be used in a criminal prosecution and at the AG level the old thought was probably not.
As a result, they put into place a set of requirements that put up a "wall" and prevented those who were getting info under intel wiretaps (FBI) from sharing information with those who were doing criminal prosecution (DOJ). In connection with the Patriot Act revisions, there were some changes that were intended to lower the wall and make it easier to share information.
HOWEVER, the FISA judges themselves apparently still had some reservations as to whether this was appropriate - letting criminal investigators have access to info that they could not have legally obtained through their criminal investigations.
The FISA judges have the right, under FISA, to put limitations on how a warrant is dealt with and how the information can be used. WHile this was probably meant to be done on a case by case basis, the FISA judges went ahead and put into effect something like "standing" or routine limitations that helped keep the wall up.
This is what went up on appeal - whether the standing limitations were judicially undoing what the Patriot Act revisions had tried to address (which they were) and whether the FISA judges were correctly re-establishing the wall or not.
IRSC decided that they should NOT have put those standing limitations in place - that's it (ok, not necessarily "it" and I did a crappy job explaining but ...) The case has nothing to do with wether or not the President can wiretap outside of FISA for intel purposes; has nothing to do with trying to figure out if domestic agencies spying domestically on domestics is domestic surveillance (which is already covered at the Supreme Court level by Katz and Keith case and it is settled that a warrant is REQUIRED); and does not ever touch on Youngstown issues involving President's rights without statute v. President's rightw in face of limiting statuet.
Finally, and imo as I harp on most importantly, IRSC does not address the Fourth Amendment and Bill of RIghts arguments that - from Ex Parte Milligan, establish that even in a state of martial law, if the civil courts are open and operating - the PResident may NOT suspend any part of the 4th, 5th or 6th amendments.
He's an idiot - please don't tell me he's an idiot with a JD!
Of all the arguments anyone wants to try to make for the program - tell me they have more than the dicta in In Re Sealed Case?!?
Mary |
03.15.06 - 7:44 pm | #
Pat Buchanan on Hardball today said the Dem's "doing nothing" is a strategy in itself, and a good one, i.e. let the repugs implode.
Y'know, at this point, the Republicans have about a kilometer of rope with which to hang themselves, and they haven't yet. That's not to say that they won't, but I certainly don't want to wait around.
watertiger |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 7:44 pm | #
watertiger:
I'm surprised by your reaction, and so I'm curious.
I'd be happy to hear more of what you think.
Pachacutec | 03.15.06 - 7:35 pm | #
I don't hear Armando arguing for doing nothing. Quite the opposite.
Thanks for the link, Bullgoose. I'll read it now.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 7:47 pm | #
it strikes me that this is, actually, a perfect moment for them all to rally righteously. clever russ has devised a case which is all about THE LAW. It's not a sexy case; there's absolutely nothing partisan about it (fundamentally) because, it doesn't - really, when you pay attention for more than thirty seconds - require an opinion. It's an open and shut case that can be concisely presented by russ doing his very best sam waterston imitation.
it's also a perfect moment to remind the voters that, perhaps, we shouldn't be so fuckin' eager to elect idiots who might be fun at a barbecue when we need people who are able to think fast and understand the rules all at the same time. dick durbin didn't have his heart in it, but he was able to make the great prosecutor, specter, look foolish because, really - they have nothing with which to defend themselves.
if each and every democrat in congress doesn't stake out his/her claim on being different from the loathed (pick your poll) republicans, then they should be made to understand that many of us will prefer the underfunded, local high school teacher who loves the Constitution (or the internationally famous actor/talkshow host/entrepreneur) who is running on some obscure party's ticket - and we might even get some of them elected.
DeeLuzon |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 7:47 pm | #
watertiger,
Buchanan also suggested Bush could attack Iran (in October) as a way to regain support! That's how bad he sees it evidently! ; )
Cozumel |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 7:49 pm | #
Bullgoose:
I agree entirely with that link you directed me to and I see absolutely nothing in Armando's diary that constradicts it.
If you can find it, I'm open to seeing where I missed it. I'm not just saying that: I am.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 7:50 pm | #
watertiger, Pachacutec, re Buchanan: I think the Dems MUST actively and aggressively respond when the GOP smears them. Not to do so is very damaging politically -people who do not have time or interest in politics judge parties on the basis of that kind of back-and-forth.
And on some thing Bushites are doing, the damage to country is so great, Dems really should speak out, regardless of political tactics.
Wesgpc |
03.15.06 - 7:50 pm | #
I do agree with Armando on this point -- just wailing that our leaders are losers gets us -- well, not sure.
But demanding our leaders fight Bush on every corner with every scandal is real. If Reid did not want to commit to backing the censure, then he sure could have given a fiery speech about accountability and how are we, the Congress, going to make sure he doesn't break laws that are meant to protect its citizens.
That is the argument, and is the one that Kos gave on Keith's show. Armando is calling for us not to give up on the censure because the dems are wobbling all over the place -- he is asking that we keep after them.
Or at least that was the point I took away from it. I have always been against walking away from the dem party as tempting as it is. And admittedly I take my lead from Howard Dean.
One day he had enough and stood up and wanted his party and his country back. And he is still going at it. Do we have the spines to stand up and continue to demand accountability when either we are being told to sit down and shut up, or told it is no use and we should all find a new horse. I intend to stay and fight.
GrandmaJ |
03.15.06 - 7:50 pm | #
watertiger | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 7:44 pm | #
And all the links I linked agree with you and Not Nazi Pat.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 7:51 pm | #
What shoulda happened immediately when Feingold announced censure:
1. Group photo of all Democratic Senators (no, not Lieberman) in front of the White House.
2. Democratic Party organizes synchronized censure rallies in every major city and state capital.
3. Democrats storm the media talk shows with fire in their eyes and bellies and with cogent simple arguments.
4. Dramatic TV and radio commercials in favor of censure are produced and aired within 2-3 days (Hey! Put Hollywood to work!).
5. Sit back and watch the Democratic Party come to life and the Republicans realize they're finally in a real fight (Don't think the great inert mass of citizenry wouldn't notice).
6. Then bring on the 2006 elections! With paper-trail voting a major agenda by 2008!
Larry Piltz |
03.15.06 - 7:51 pm | #
Pach,
I'm having trouble accessing DKos. Greenwald and Digby are spot on. I will try to find the Armando post, because I don't want you to think I'm flying off the handle here.
watertiger |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 7:52 pm | #
GrandmaJ | 03.15.06 - 7:50 pm | #
Your understanding of Armando's argument is pretty much mine.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 7:52 pm | #
This is an interesting sentence from the WaPo article linked by EPU above:
"President Bush plans to issue a new national security strategy today reaffirming his doctrine of preemptive war against terrorists and hostile states with chemical, biological or nuclear weapons, despite the troubled experience in Iraq."
The sentence is ambiguous. Does it say that bush is going to attack terrorists and hostile states that POSSESS chemical, biological or nuclear weapons, or does it say that bush had a doctrine that calls for preemptive war against such entities, with the U.S. USING chemical, biological or nuclear weapons? I think both readings are possible. What does "with" modify--"terrorists and hostile states," or "preemptive war"?
neurophius |
03.15.06 - 7:53 pm | #
"Pat Buchanan on Hardball today said the Dem's 'doing nothing..."
Accepting advice from Buchanan is just like accepting it from Rove. These men are the enemy; they do not like us. Pay no attention to anything they say.
susan |
03.15.06 - 7:53 pm | #
watertiger | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 7:52 pm | #
I'm more likely to think I'm missing something.
It's been a long day and I'm tired.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 7:53 pm | #
It appears that the "marketing plan" for the war against Iran has begun.
rwcole |
03.15.06 - 7:54 pm | #
Pach - I'm sure will get a new post now, but I will take you up.
Digby, whom I agree with, targets his remarks to politicians.
Armando seems to say that critique of Dem politicians by the blogosphere is in itself defeatism. He seemingly reaches this conclusion b/c of the words used by the blogosphere to express its collective disdain for Dem politicians who aren't supporting Feingold. Words such as "coward."
That is an awfully big assumption to make - that calling a Dem politician a coward with respect to standing up for censure is the same as being defeatist on censure.
I think Feingold was right (morally, legally and politically), I think the Dem's should support the measure (b/c it is right morally, legally and politically), and agree with those and have opined that many Dem's seem to lack a spine.
That being said, I also have posted that I think we should give time for Dem's to come around, and that getting shunted off to committee was good b/c it obviated forcing Dem's to vote but kept the issue alive. I think the issue is a keeper, and the longer it is around the better (to me talking about censure is as good as voting on it).
I don't see any logical disconnect among the positions I have taken (which have been taken in whole or in part by many others), and I certainly don't see any of it as "defeatist."
I have more on this if you want, but the above sums it up I think.
Evil Parallel Universe |
03.15.06 - 7:54 pm | #
damn i missed this from today-- check it out-- death threats against the judiciary?
I agree with you about what Armando is saying. He's not telling us to suck it up, he's saying we shouldn't throw in the towel. We need to keep the pressure ON Dems in Congress.
That's how you read it, right?
Mrs. K8 |
03.15.06 - 7:55 pm | #
Accepting advice from Buchanan is just like accepting it from Rove. These men are the enemy; they do not like us. Pay no attention to anything they say.
susan | 03.15.06 - 7:53 pm |
I'm just saying the guy is politically savvy, IMO. Nothing more.
Cozumel |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 7:57 pm | #
Mrs. K8 | 03.15.06 - 7:55 pm | #
Yes.
He is urging persistence in fighting, and cautioning us that our understandable rage with the slow moving dems might lead some of us to give up.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 7:57 pm | #
I don’t imagine his party’s stumbling, bumbling, timid response is any surprise at all to Badger Feingold (yes, I vote for Badger!). I think he’s looking to do two things: 1) force the cowering democrats into true opposition now that the country will be behind it and 2) catapult himself above the crowd of 2008 presidential aspirants, stand out with the base (= us = primary voters), and get more national recognition (not that there’s anything wrong with that). Color me impressed anew with his strategery, political instincts, timing, and guts, on top of his progressiveness and integrity which I already admired.
Pach, I’m gonna go to Drinking Liberally tomorrow, because your wish is my command.
op99 |
03.15.06 - 7:58 pm | #
Be The Bu$h Opposition - 24/7
understandinglife |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 7:58 pm | #
I've tried to look for news re: Hillary Clinton and censure. Seems to be a real dearth of "news". I haven't noticed any posts from NY FDLers who have called Clinton's office. Following is ALL I could find-- via Nexis/ Lexis- couldn't find online at NYPost, so I'm copying it here, FWIW. Hillary certainly hasn't had a lot to say on this one, eh? (and LOL that she is a Prez contender from the "left" of the party.)
=== The New York Post
March 15, 2006 Wednesday
HEADLINE: RUSS RIPS DEM FOES OF CENSURE
BYLINE: GEOFF EARLE Post Correspondent
WASHINGTON - Sen. Russ Feingold (D-Wis.) accused fellow Democrats of "cowering" under political pressure instead of censuring President Bush for "breaking the law" - as Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton dodged repeated attempts to get her to comment.
Feingold - who may challenge Clinton from the left for his party's 2008 presidential nomination - introduced a resolution censuring Bush for authorizing wiretaps of terror suspects' phone calls without a warrant.
Feingold announced his move Sunday - but Clinton refused three requests for comment yesterday.
"Hey, how ya doing?" she said as she strode briskly toward the Senate floor.
"Talk to you later," said a Clinton aide as his boss exited a Senate Democratic lunch meeting through a back door.
Normally outspoken Judiciary Committee member Sen. Charles Schumer at first said he would comment, then passed off the job to Minority Leader Sen. Harry Reid (D-Nev.).
"Go listen to him," he said.
Senior senators fear Feingold's effort could make the Democrats look petty.
GRAPHIC: RUSS FEINGOLD Puts Hillary on spot.===
Valley Girl |
03.15.06 - 7:59 pm | #
Pach - I dont read it that way, I see him as saying that the rage is the defeatism (or will cause the defeat). But, that is me.
Evil Parallel Universe |
03.15.06 - 7:59 pm | #
GrandmaJ and EPU --
Thanks to both of you for being lots more eloquent on this topic than I'm capable of being today. You expressed my sentiments, too, when you stated your own.
Mrs. K8 |
03.15.06 - 7:59 pm | #
Valley Girl | 03.15.06 - 7:18 pm
Thanks Valley, missed that.
John Casper |
03.15.06 - 7:59 pm | #
Keep reading "should haves" I would like to get with others on what we should do tomorrow on this issue. I have called and e-mailed almost every Dem senator and my two steadfast bushites here in Utah (Hatch & Bennett). So what next?
shooogarp |
03.15.06 - 8:00 pm | #
Looks like Judy Miller is back in the Plame Game and add Kristof to the list. There will be more in tomorrow's NYT.
The subpoenas, the newspaper said, seek Miller's notes and other materials, including any other documents concerning Valerie Plame "prepared by Ms. Miller and Nicholas D. Kristof, an Op-Ed columnist for The Times; drafts of a personal account by Ms. Miller published in The Times in October concerning her grand jury testimony; documents concerning her interactions with an editor of The Times; and documents concerning a recent Vanity Fair article on the investigation. E & P 3/15/0
EPU - I think that was an excellent example of arguing in the alternative. I'm taking notes.
BTW - what you said about legal shows is why I can't read Grisham. However, I can watch Boston Legal - I just never happen to be around at the right time.
Cap'n Kirk is so campy - and James Spader is -- James Spader.
It could be about the National Grocers Association convention scheduling and I'd watch if I could.
Mary |
03.15.06 - 8:01 pm | #
Evil Parallel Universe | 03.15.06 - 7:54 pm | #
Actually, I interpret Armando's argument to be consistent with what you have described as your position.
My synopsis of his argument is in my Pachacutec | 03.15.06 - 7:57 pm | #.
Accordingly, my interpretation of his argument is not the same as yours.
In my interpretation, he is cautionaing against another kind of defeatism that comes from giving up with slow moving dem politicians out of frustration, and not, as you say, that all criticism of dem politicians is defeatism. After all, he fully associates himself with Digby's post.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 8:01 pm | #
op99 | 03.15.06 - 7:58 pm | #
Have a great time! What city are you in?
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 8:02 pm | #
New Dem slogan
when we cowerTogether, we can call it a huddle
Mary |
03.15.06 - 8:03 pm | #
Pachacutec | 03.15.06 - 7:27 pm
Pach, we need affirmative messages to get the Beltway Dems off the dime -- I think that's what Armando is saying.
Personally, I agree; however -- since Finegold is playing US Grant to the DC Dems McClellan, what can we say or do to advance the cause?
Seriously -- this is where we need blogosphere message development leadership . . .
How do we express our outrage, while encouraging the duck and cover Dems to join the fight?
Pachacutec @ 03.15.06 - 7:39 pm -- I've read it, and both it and the Digby article he quotes make many good points. I also understand the power expectations can have, both on those who have them and those who are the object of those expectations.
Sun Tzu has some wisdom to offer also - "Know the enemy, and know yourself, and you'll always win. Know yourself but not your enemy, you'll win half the time."
Some Democrats are just slow to catch on - perhaps they're busy or whatever. Others clearly are afraid. How you deal with them depends on who they are.
The ones who are slow, and some of the ones who are afraid might be cajoled into doing the right thing. The ones who are truly afraid will only listen to us if they are more afraid of us, or what we represent, than they are of anything else. This isn't likely to happen, at least on this issue. I don't know what else there is to do about them, other than try to get rid of them as the opportunity arises (IOW, elections, persuading them to run for something they can't win, or appointing them out of the way).
I'm not feeling very hopeful right now, because the issues of this censure resolution seem so obvious to me. If they don't see, it's probably because they don't want to. If, after all this time, they still can't come to a decision, what is their problem?
Right now, we know ourselves pretty well. We don't seem to know the enemy (our Democratic Senators, in this case) well enough to know what to do about them. Sun Tzu says it's a coin toss right now, even assuming we accept Armando's definition of victory.
Cujo359 |
03.15.06 - 8:03 pm | #
Lest I forget, just want to mention that I think HARKIN is a really good guy.
I'll never forget hearing him (and Durbin, too) on the floor of the Senate reminding everyone of Negroponte's background as facilitator of death squads in Central America, in explaining his (Durbin's too) refusal to vote for his nomination to whatever the hell it is he's supposed to be doing today as intelligence Chief.
[Smoking fine cigars and getting massages during three hour lunches is what I hear....]
Mrs. K8 |
03.15.06 - 8:05 pm | #
Pachacutec,
Can't get to Armando's post on Kos. If WT's post would be considered "cajoling" rather than "condemning", then I see no contradiction either.
BullGoose |
03.15.06 - 8:05 pm | #
I think Digby's post is just about the politicians, Armando argues re: the blogosphere. I agree with Digby also, but I don't think you can take arguments regarding "defeatism" amongst politicians constantly having their lunch money stolen by bullys, to the blogosphere and its critique/reeation/suggestions for those politicians.
It just doesn't follow for me.
Of course, I could be wrong.
Evil Parallel Universe |
03.15.06 - 8:05 pm | #
It appears that the "marketing plan" for the war against Iran has begun.
rwcole | 03.15.06 - 7:54 pm | #
And just think! WHIG doesn't even need to change it's ackronym!
shooogarp |
03.15.06 - 8:05 pm | #
Jon said bueller, bueller? now he's playing soledado.
angie |
03.15.06 - 8:09 pm | #
MSNBC Poll March 13, 2006
What do you think of Sen. Feingold's proposal to censure Pres. Bush?
What do you think of Sen. Feingold's proposal to censure Pres. Bush? * 32249 responses
Political grandstanding
25%
A way to hold him accountable
75%
MSNBC is no longer accepting votes.
I posted this earlier today, but it seems appropriate here. IMO both Dems and Republicans are polling this question over the St. Patrick's recess.
John Casper |
03.15.06 - 8:09 pm | #
"It appears that the "marketing plan" for the war against Iran has begun."
rwcole | 03.15.06 - 7:54 pm |
But will it work? As Shrub himself has so eloquently stated, 'Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice.....ah....ah...you can't fool me again!!'
sonate |
03.15.06 - 8:10 pm | #
"In honor of Badger, although I don't really think I like that nickname."
Thanks Mary, it has its limitations, but I prefer it to "cheesehead."
John Casper |
03.15.06 - 8:11 pm | #
Senior senators fear Feingold's effort could make the Democrats look petty.
If I may acquaint you with an image I've made popular at the rough-and-tumble Eschaton:
There are a lot of bloggers wrestling with those very questions right now, and very publicly.
Coordination happens without centralized organization, which is for our side often a strength. It allows for maximum creativity and passion all around, without the baggage heirarchy brings.
That said, the degree to which an open source movement begins to collaborate for message development is still an open experiment, and I observe it with professional interest, as one who professionally builds organizations, and not just as an activist.
Practically speaking, bloggers, who write and like to use their own words, listen to some talking point suggestions but must write with their own voices. The downside of highly organized message development in the blogosphere is the creation of dittoheads (and, I would argue, the supression of writing talent like that of our hostesses, which would hurt traffic).
But you've hit a topic I've been thinking a lot about lately.
There is no consensus across the blogosphere yet as to how much to attack dem senators, shame the, or lobby and cajole them. We all agree, I think, that most of them reqquire some combination of both, but we all may draw the fine lines at different points along the spectrum.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 8:11 pm | #
Pach, Rochester NY
op99 | 03.15.06 - 8:07 pm
op99- interested to know if you have called offices of Clinton and Schumer re: censure, and what response you got?
Valley Girl |
03.15.06 - 8:12 pm | #
Why can't condemning be cajoling? Just askin? And that is really how I view it - I just dont' see defeatism in using strong words or taking strong opinions.
I might even say that Armando is getting into the bullshit of the false gentility of the Senate.
"I thank the right honorable piece of shit from the great state of Wisconsin for yielding......"
That is one of the reasons the Dem's lose.
Evil Parallel Universe |
03.15.06 - 8:13 pm | #
watertiger | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 8:11 pm
no link....???
Valley Girl |
03.15.06 - 8:14 pm | #
Mary @ 03.15.06 - 8:09 pm -- I don't like that nickname either - it brings to mind Badger from Firefly, who was about as unlike Feingold as an english-speaking white guy can be.
Cujo359 |
03.15.06 - 8:14 pm | #
Ordinarily, I use the "flies with sugar, not vinegar" approach... :)
watertiger | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 8:08 pm | #
You caught alot with that one. But who you calling a fly? If I was offended, I might point out that the best fly bait of all is neither sugar nor vinegar : )
BullGoose |
03.15.06 - 8:15 pm | #
Valley Girl,
that IS the image. Me banging my forehead on my desk.
Usually in a parenthetical.
Like Pach, I'm a little weary. But not bowed!
watertiger |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 8:15 pm | #
Cujo359 | 03.15.06 - 8:03 pm | #
I think we're pretty close to the same position.
EPU:
I guess we;ve gone as far as we can go. We don't read 'mando's piece the same way. No problem.
I'm sorry some of the other can't get into the diary, as I'm interested in their thoughts.
As ever, if I'm not around, anyone can email me if they want at ajschuler at erols dot com.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 8:15 pm | #
Jane,
It's time to boot the dem establishment. They can't figure out how to take on a president with 33% approval rating, whose long term trend puts him well BELOW NIXONIAN post-impeachment levels by the elections.
The first sign of trouble was making Paul Hackett drop his sentorial bid. It;s time to take the rudder of the shipm it can no longer be left adrift.
Get HR 1606 passed and then start moving.
patience |
03.15.06 - 8:16 pm | #
Calling Dems weasels when they act like weasels is not defeatism it is description. The solution is not to avoid calling them weasels it is for them to stop acting like weasels.
Hugh |
03.15.06 - 8:17 pm | #
As ever, if I'm not around, anyone can email me if they want at ajschuler at erols dot com.
You da bomb, Pach.
watertiger |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 8:17 pm | #
Ahhh... thanks. And, I hope you know that I was quoting that article as "information" only...
Valley Girl |
03.15.06 - 8:18 pm | #
Evil Parallel Universe | 03.15.06 - 8:13 pm | #
Now really I disagree with that. He is warning against activist anger that leads to despair that leads to quitting, and there are people who are doing that, throwing up their hands, etc. Maybe not you, but if you read around the blogosphere, it's happening.
Armando can be accused of many things, but I've never heard anyone accuse him of being too polite.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 8:19 pm | #
The big question that has me wondering is what kind of time table bush has for his implementation of the next war? will it be tied to the polls?@30%will Tehran be turned to glass?
The timeing of this emphisis on pre-emption should have everyone getting ready for some really,REALLY stupid moves by the administration.My guess,timetable is set for Iran,as well as many other civil liberty infringements as they think they can get away with...attacking at any sign of resistance to their program is a trademark of this political{roves} machine
snuffy |
03.15.06 - 8:19 pm | #
cheesehead
*g*
Add Firefly and I'm thinking we're still "just looking" for now.
I still think we could maybe hypnotize some lightweights like York with repetitive images of dancing badgers singing *mushroom mushroom*.
Makes at LEAST as much sense as letting GWB run the country.
Mary |
03.15.06 - 8:21 pm | #
Pachacutec,
I think Armando is plain wrong.
First, he is confusing scorn with defeatism. Bloggers railing against the pathetic display we've been witnessing aren't howling in defeat. Some (at least one) of us are in disbelief that a blatant violation of the law requires some additional review by the Democrats in order for them to reach some sort of conclusion in the ballpark of fighting for the rule of law.
Second, the answer given by the Democrats -- we need to wait for more investigation -- may be acceptable to Armando, but it's bullshit to anybody who's been paying attention. There will be no investigations worth having because the Republicans shitcanned them and the Democratic leadership went along with it.
Third, Armando shouldn't be admonishing bloggers who are sick of Democrats' endless ruminations on clear-cut issues like whether to demand that the president follow the law. The people who started bitching first were the Democratic leaders. They're the ones running to the media for unattributed quotes whining about Feingold.
What pisses me off is that the answer is so fucking obvious it hurts. Feingold played the censure card. Don't like it? Tough shit... either become Superman and spin the planet backwards or get on board and fight for the Constitution. Bitching to the AP about your foilbled week's worth of plans shouldn't be a fucking option.
Armando is worried about the wrong people. It's not unlike GOPers blaming war critics for the fucked-in-half fucked job the administration has done in Iraq.
Dover Bitch |
03.15.06 - 8:21 pm | #
Yes, I agree with Pachacutec's quote. We have to continue to deluge them with phone calls, emails, faxes, and letters.
I called and wrote Feinstein today and will keep doing it until she answers my questions...How far does this man, who thinks he is a king, have to go before our (my) elected officials (you) stand up for what is right? and...What part of Senator Feingold's censure motion don't you support?
It's also a good idea to contact Reid since he is supposed to represent all Democrats, not just those who live in Nevada.
Don't give up yet.
Deborah |
03.15.06 - 8:22 pm | #
"There is no consensus across the blogosphere yet as to how much to attack dem senators, shame the, or lobby and cajole them."
Pachacutec | 03.15.06 - 8:11 pm |
With respect to the 19 rogue Dems that voted to censure Clinton, any attack (short of physical violence) is warranted. To support a censure of Clinton while refusing to support a censure of Shrub is a violation of principle, party, and plain logic. Let's get rid of 'em if they don't step up! They're unreliable when the chips are down. If a Repub is elected in their place, maybe the DINO's will (finally) get the message. Then we can bag elephants instead of chasing jackasses!
sonate |
03.15.06 - 8:22 pm | #
Okay, before I head off to dream about a dinner date with Keith Olbermann, Pat Fitzgerald, Stephen Colbert, Jon Stewart, George Clooney and Russ Feingold...
ValleyGirl, I called both senators Schumer and Clinton for their thoughts on censure, and the responses I got were unsurprisingly noncommital.
This just seems like a no-brainer to me.
Peace to you good people of FDL!
watertiger |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 8:22 pm | #
the fact that Bob Menendez and Donna Brazile 'get' the Censure Resolution gives me hope ...
Wilson46201 |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 8:23 pm | #
Armando is worried about the wrong people. It's not unlike GOPers blaming war critics for the fucked-in-half fucked job the administration has done in Iraq.
Dover Bitch | 03.15.06 - 8:21 pm | #
I just don't agree. He's not slagging our side's activists; I hear him trying to keep our energy focused for the long haul.
But just for you I'm going to reread him again, because I really don't take from my reading the interpretations of his meaning that you are. And I'm going to keep your comment open before me as I read it.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 8:25 pm | #
From Wilson's NYT's link: "Call for Censure Is Rallying Cry to Bush's Base"
IMO these are people who are going to vote red no matter what and that further confirms the accuracy of Feingold's political instincts in crafting the Censure the way he did. If the NYT's is accurate, Dems aren't going to lose any votes by fighting for censure. The Censure is a pry bar (one of several I hope) to get the middle 33 and 1/3 to vote blue at midterms.
John Casper |
03.15.06 - 8:26 pm | #
If a Repub is elected in their place, maybe the DINO's will (finally) get the message. Then we can bag elephants instead of chasing jackasses!
sonate | 03.15.06 - 8:22 pm | #
It really bugs me not to agree with my longtime friends here like you in this post, sonate.
But taking our anger (which I share) to such a point of action that we are willing to act so as to add Republicans to the senate majority is to me the height of foolhardiness.
How many more wars do you want?
Of course, none.
Again, I would refer people back to my front page post about the building of a movement:
John "The Human Muppet" Bolton did the old "Imagine 9/11 but with nuclear weapons" yesterday.
That will be enough to keep the 27% wingnut base manning the barricades and stocking up on powdered milk and tuna.
As I have said many times, that will be curtains for us all.
Russia and China are standing in the way of any signifcant action. So if the US acts it will be all on our own. Old Messiah Complex George may be just the man to do what everyone says will be suicide.
The censure also changes the direction of the talk - IMO.
BTW, MoveOn seems to be getting serious. I have received 2 different types of emails from them in the last 24 hours. They make is ez - the most recent email is asking for calls to Senators and all "my" senator info is there all spelled out nicely for me.
Well organized effort IMO.
Mary |
03.15.06 - 8:30 pm | #
As always Pach, yours is a thoughtful and wise take on whether the Democratic party is balloon or millstone. For the short term, I just can't see how the federal-level Dems can reorganize themselves quickly enough to become relevant in 08, which they think they'll simply inherit (like 04, right?).
Whereas I can see a third party rapidly forming behind Feingold. It could peel off pragmatic Republicans (one of whom could be Veep) as well as Democrats, and run on fiscal sanity and de-hegemony. That's about all the platform you'd need. Because if those two things aren't accomplished right pronto, our whole country and possibly the world are in the shitter anyway, as more and more people are realizing.
MarcLord |
03.15.06 - 8:31 pm | #
Pachacutec, I appreciate that. And sorry for all the swearing... I'm just at my wit's end with this bunch.
Ducking a principled fight should not be allowed by anyone representing progressives or people who respect the Constitution. Running to the media to anonymously whine about the way someone on your side is fighting is just stupid.
I don't think Armando's attention should be on people like me right now. We've got bigger things to worry about than bloggers' frustrations.
If all he wanted to say was "Don't give up!" that's all he should have said.
Dover Bitch |
03.15.06 - 8:32 pm | #
The NYT's article that Wilson linked to says how "overjoyed" conservatives are at impeachment talk. One neocon who is not "overjoyed" is Scooter Libby. The lower ClusterBush's JAR goes, the more likely Scooter is to start thinking "deal."
John Casper |
03.15.06 - 8:33 pm | #
VG, called them both, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. Got nothin'. This afternoon Clinton's aide said she "hadn't announced a position yet" and would be issuing a press release, couldn't say when. (After the polling, I guess.)
op99 |
03.15.06 - 8:34 pm | #
Mary,
"They make is ez - the most recent email is asking for calls to Senators and all "my" senator info is there all spelled out nicely for me."
I used that. Being in Texas, and not a masochist, that's as "personal" I want to get ; )
Cozumel |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 8:35 pm | #
VG, emailed them too. Nothing back from Clinton at all, Schumer at least instantaneously form emails back that he received it and appreciates it.
op99 |
03.15.06 - 8:35 pm | #
It sounds like the neocons have planned a nuclear black ops false flag incident against us, which will be blamed on Iran. 'We have teams that can identify the nuclear signature of an exploded radioactive bomb.' -- newspapers six months ago.
The only remaining question is where this black ops incident will be.
Can war against Iran be stopped?
Are we truly determined to have yet another war of aggression?
How did Germans turn into Nazis?
Answer: little by little.
We are becoming the new Nazis.
I wish I were exaggerating.
"Consumption seen as next big driver of growth
After more than 25 years of economic growth driven by exports and fixed-asset investment, China is turning towards consumption to sustain the boom."
Rereading Armando, allow me an extended quote (emphasis added):
The other defeatism is coming from the Left blogosphere. It is the knee jerk reaction of some to condemn Democrats before they have even decided on the issue. This is defeatism of a very dangerous sort. Why? Because it makes even a success a defeat. This morning I wrote:
With the exception of the dim bulb Dodd, [no Democrat (Lieberman doesn't count)] said anything really harmful. "I'm going to wait" is not my answer. It is not Feingold's answer. And in a perfect world it would not be the answer given by ANY Democrat, or Senator for that matter. But that's not our world.
Now there are different ways to say "I am going to wait." The manner in which our Democratic Senators did so is an exercise in stupid politics and weakness. Here is a simple lesson for them -- Next time, excoriate the Bush Administration for their arrogance, apparent lawlessness, "JUST LIKE IN THE PORTS SCANDAL," and their inability to "come clean with the American People," but Censure is a serious matter and one not to be decided lightly. Say that you will seriously consider the Resolution from Senator Feingold, "A MAN OF PRINCIPLE," but that you are not taking a position at this time.
Senator Reid, of the undecided Dem Senators, comes closest to this. But the opportunity to criticize the President must not be passed up. Argue from strength. Not ready to take a position? Then don't. But do not act afraid. Whatever you think of the resolution and its effect on Dems' image on national security, the pathetic show of weakness by these Dem Senators has done 10 times the damage - feeding every negative Dem sterotype of weakness and lack of principle.
Now, does this mean the fight is over? I say decidedly no. We must cajole, urge, fight with and plead with our Democratic Senators to do the right thing on principle and politically.
What we must NOT do is what too many in the blogs are already doing - declaring defeat; calling Dems cowards and worse; condemning them instead of cajoling them.
There are three conditions for those in the blogosphere that Armando is calling out for his definition of defeatism from the left:
1) declaring defeat
2) calling Dems cowards and worse
3) condemning them instead of cajoling them.
As I read it, all three clauses, separated by a semicolen, are ncessary for his category of those whom he is cautioning.
It seems some here are interpreting a hidden "OR" between each of those cluases and accordingly are taking understandable offense, believing he is conflating criticism, for example, with defeatism.
I don't read it that way. I read an unwritten "AND" between each of his conditions, though I can see how his wording allows for some ambiguity.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 8:36 pm | #
let's not forget the 29 House members who have been backing John Conyers similar Censure Resolution for months. The Black Caucus in the House is usually pretty damn progressive. There's a Progressive Caucus with about 60 members in the House too. The Senate was designed to be more conservative...
The majority (slight) of Democratic House members voted against Bush's War on Iraq...
Wilson46201 |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 8:36 pm | #
Ack! Sorry I did not close bold.
Damn I must be tored.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 8:37 pm | #
So I'm going to ask the question again...how do we get Dem's off the "wait until the investigation is complete" meme?
RBG |
03.15.06 - 8:37 pm | #
"There is no consensus across the blogosphere yet as to how much to attack dem senators, shame the, or lobby and cajole them. We all agree, I think, that most of them reqquire some combination of both, but we all may draw the fine lines at different points along the spectrum."
My concern was articulated upthread: we don't fully understand why they frequently seem impervious to our suggestions.
But, some of them are starting to feel comfortable sharing their thoughts on blogs.
Would it be helpful to encourage them to tell us why they are not always receptive to us?
Should we invite them to join us on a thread? Would we be more successful if we extended a hand toward them rather than a fist in the form of (outraged) e mail, phone calls and letters?
Or, is it naive to think that an honest dialogue could even be initiated?
susan |
03.15.06 - 8:37 pm | #
nicknames: I agree that 'cheesehead" is a bad nickname. But is Wisconsin the place that has that chili with all sortsa goobly gooey good stuff in it poured over spaghetti? That is not my usual eating style but I like it. Then there's the brats. Maybe we can find a fighting food angle here.
In the meantime, I'll throw out Ragin' Russ Fighten' Feingold, with a few more eff-style modifiers thown in if you like, like Feisty, or Foxy (for the ladies and others that like his looks out there).
Wesgpc |
03.15.06 - 8:37 pm | #
VG, Clinton updates her website press releases at least daily, even if it's just about a pasta factory or some such shit. So watch there: http://clinton.senate.gov/
op99 |
03.15.06 - 8:38 pm | #
To me badger connotes feisty and scrappy, but then I didn't see Firefly lol.
op99 |
03.15.06 - 8:39 pm | #
susan | 03.15.06 - 8:37 pm | #
MOst of them will only do it through staff and back channels, if they do it at all.
After this year, when the power of the netroots becomes so apparent that they can't ignore us anymore, they will begin to adapt.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 8:41 pm | #
I wish the 'let's wait for an investigation' Dems in Congress would just 'Wake up and smell the Tar and Feathers!'
P J Evans |
03.15.06 - 8:41 pm | #
Pachacutec: when my party is dishonestly smeared daily by GOP liars and bad faith artists, and the elected representatives of my political party do not respond, that is very very bad in my book. And if they do not respond to dishonest defamatory attacks, I feel they need to be called on that. And if it comes to calling them cowards, then I feel that has to be done.
So, where am I in the Armando blogger taxonomy?
Wesgpc |
03.15.06 - 8:41 pm | #
Amen to that, Jane.
Note to Dems in DC: We're dyin' out here, guys. H-E-L-P and I mean N-0-W dammit, not "let's hold a meeting and form a committee in 3 months." Right now.
Margot |
03.15.06 - 8:42 pm | #
"Together, we can fart in our shorts."
axelgrease |
03.15.06 - 8:42 pm | #
We do have a serious problem, and part of it is our Democratic Senators' capability to communicate with their constituents. Today I received a letter from Dianne Feinstein dated February 15th about the USA Patriot Act. Yes, it arrived one month from the date on the letter, and I've had at least four more one-way communications with her office in the last week alone.
Can our Democratic Senators be Luddites as well as cowards? Can they be so lame as to not only be unable to master the communications tools needed in the 21st century but also unable to muster the courage so prized by their predecessors in the 20th?
It bothered me that the Democrats thought that Feingold "sprung" his resolution on them when I had seen him on Stephanapolous (thanks Crooks and Liars!) and then read his resolution. Why can't the Democratic Senators or their staffs or their consultants -- no, don't get me started -- read the the damn resolution and take a position?
Keep pushing them, lobbying them and shaming them.
One nice thing about the blogswarm is that some of us can play a little more bad but reasonable cop while others play nasty bad, bad cop.
The mistake we make is when we fail to recognize that we can work together in tandem, and instead go after each other.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 8:43 pm | #
Pach - I'm in Dover Bitch and Watertiger's court on this one. I went and read the full post and to me it reads like "talk nice and maybe the dems will someday decide to say a weak ok to censure."
Perhaps his text is not as clear as it should be but I'm also taking this in conjunction with marcos' KO statments of "we can wait" etc.
Here are the thoughts that keep popping up in my head:
1- I think it's starting to get uncomfortable for folks who are heavily allied (even as the mouthy outsiders) with the dem party. There's some dissonance going on as people face the lack of action from the Sen. dems over and over and we need to watch how this impact strategy.
2- It's nice to sit in left blogosphere and be patient - it's not so nice in Iraq and soon to be very bad in Iran when the Israeli/US bombers hit. I keep repeating this because we are obligated to acknowledge the urgency of our current situation and the repercussions of our govt's actions.
I cannot even begin to understand the patience shown with the dems after everything that has happened and the fact that only one dem senator (who has clearly decided that the blog base is a good base to use in a run for 2008 which shows he has some smarts - not a slam at Russ, just we need to acknowledge that this is also strategy for him) after all this time dares to mention censure, not even impeachment.
3- continue to find it interesting that there is so little discussion or active support for Conyers impeachment investigation - we don't pay a lot of attention to the Black Dems unless they're named Obama.
and as I type (and am prob EPUd) Nightline begins a discussion of Bolton and Iran.
siun |
03.15.06 - 8:43 pm | #
They talk about Bush in a Bubble...how about Dems in a bubble?...I'm fast losing hope here...once I belonged to this "group" and we were all supposed to vote together before action was taken.. it was like trying to fly an elephant...they just t-a-l-k-e-d and t-a-l-k-e-d and never did a thing...I took matters into my own hands, went out and panhandled some money from the old rich guys who hung around the laundromat looking for action and came back with the dough and they were still sitting there talking about it! But they were REALLY pissed at me, ugly is a better description, and they threw me out of the group saying I didn't follow the rules, get out, here's your hat, what's your hurry...for all I know they are still sitting there trying to figure it out...this is what has happened to the Dems...Feingold got sick of waiting for them to get off their high paid asses and work for a living...I called Boxer's office about this and the phone person there says: So, are you saying you want her to support censure???? I felt like crying....
Spiderpaws |
03.15.06 - 8:44 pm | #
Pachacutec
The mistake we make is when we fail to recognize that we can work together in tandem, and instead go after each other.
Exactly why Armando's column pisses me off. And why the unattributed Democratic quotes about Feingold piss me off.
Dover Bitch |
03.15.06 - 8:45 pm | #
Well what would be considered defeatism? It is what I have succumbed to at times -- that no matter what our side does (that is when they actually do something) they will be one rhetorical point ahead of us. No point in trying. My despair lasted about a week and then I went on.
Our angry response to the dems not coming out immediately, is not defeatism in my opinion. Anger brings our energy to work to keep this issue, along with the thousand other issues we have with Bush, on the stove bubling.
I am going to go back to Armando's whole post and read the comments. Maybe someone can lend more light.
Hi Mrs. K8. I read you are doing better. So is Cody, although very slowly. Funeral was last Friday so we are getting on with the living part of life. As was intended albeit with heavy heart. And my 'worry' gene kicking in big time for my son and his family.
GrandmaJ |
03.15.06 - 8:45 pm | #
Reporting back in on action taken:
Today we received two solicitations for funds (DSCC & DCCC).
Took a big fat sharpie to the return page, and wrote across it in big fat letters:
"No Money From Us Until You Support Russ Feingold -- Censure King George -- Save Our Constitution!"
Messages tucked in envelopes. Going out in tomorrow's mail.
[The last time I wrote in big fat sharpie pen on money solicitations was when I said -- "No Money Unless Howard Dean is DNC Chair." That worked out. Here's hoping we have success here too.]
Mrs. K8 |
03.15.06 - 8:45 pm | #
"Together...we can snarf George Bush's nuts."
axelgrease |
03.15.06 - 8:48 pm | #
GrandmaJ --
Here in our house, you and Cody and your son, and the whole family are still mentioned every single night in our prayers.
Have things worked out with the in-law side of things? We prayed especially that there would be resolution of the threat to seek custody. Hope all is now peaceful, with everyone working through their grief together, giving each other a hand.
Mrs. K8 |
03.15.06 - 8:48 pm | #
Wesgpc | 03.15.06 - 8:41 pm | #
Well, I can't speak for him, but speaking for my interpretation and I guess for myself, you're with the rest of us.
I would rather we reserve the word coward for the other side, because when we replay Rove's talking points we just do his work.
Notice Jane's list is "lions and lemmings." Those are not Rove's labels, they are ours.
When we replay Roves frames, even when our guys are being chickenshit, we do his work. It's tough not, because objectively, they are playing to Rove's labels, which is what Greenwald is saying.
Those are my thoughts. I can't argue with your sentiment. But I have to point out the downsides of your word choice.
And as for Armando's group of concern, if you're not quitting on these foundering dems, who are not currently acting like real dems on this issue, then you're not one of armando's "defeatists."
At least, that's how I read it.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 8:48 pm | #
Dover Bitch | 03.15.06 - 8:45 pm | #
Understood.
BUt remember, we all share the same goals. Fight! Keep at it!
We're just struggling over tactics, and frankly, thay's the fault of the fainthearted faction of dems who have not yet come out in support of censure.
They've put us in this position.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 8:51 pm | #
chili with all sortsa goobly gooey good stuff in it poured over spaghetti
To me that sounds like Cincinnati Seven Way
But Wisconsin COULD have it.
I had a friend who lived in Milwaukee and when I used to write (long ago) she ALWAYS sent me her address back. Being pretty oblivious, it took me a long time (and her a lot of capitals, arrows and ink) before I noticed that, although I had the zip right, I kept addressing to her in Milwaukee MN.
OK - that says really bad things about me, I know.
But it does "sound" better - Milwaukee MN - and I think it shows some deepseated inner aversion I may have to WI (although a niece is in school there now) .
Still - I've been in Feingold's camp since I saw him work the Patriot act filibuster in Dec (about when I found this site).
If I HAVE to wear the stupid hat, I will.
Mary |
03.15.06 - 8:53 pm | #
very long article looking at a $$$$ supporter of HC (the $$$ behind the HC throne), along with pushing Warner as second choice. But, this one tiny part caught my eye:
===To be a successful insurgent in 2008, a candidate probably needs a serious following online. The activists in the so-called Netroots, people who connect to politics primarily through MoveOn.org and the liberal blogs, will be even more populous and more motivated than in 2004, and while it's impossible to generalize, it seems that most of the Netroots are eager to find a candidate who isn't Hillary Clinton. Among the anti-Hillary contenders, Russ Feingold and Wesley Clark have the strongest constituencies online.===
Valley Girl |
03.15.06 - 8:53 pm | #
"Together...we can watch George Bush strategically bomb Iran's nuclear installations and lose the midterm elections in a swell of southern trailer park patriotism."
axelgrease |
03.15.06 - 8:54 pm | #
Gosh -- I miss the tolet paper background that was on the non-halo scan version of the site yesterday.
It look so soft and comfortable, and like it would really be a great feeling cleansing wipe too.
Honestly, it made me want to...
...well, never mind. But I did like your new design.
Anonymous |
03.15.06 - 8:55 pm | #
Our nation is fast approaching the status where it will be referred to as an "international pariah".
(Snip)
"Ecuador's interior minister has resigned after continued nationwide protests over a possible free trade agreement with the US."
From my perspective, it took the other side eight years to gin up a push for impeachment. They started right from the day after election day.
There's no doubt our side has been veal on the GOP farm. I've written about that many times, as you all may recall. I don't like it any more than you do.
However, I'm more optimistic than Armando: I think we can win this, but I think it will take a year.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 8:56 pm | #
Pachacutec,
I'm with you and I'm not giving up. I'm saying it along with Glenn and it's not just Rove's talking points they're playing into.
I've said it here before, but after Reid's Rule 21 maneuver, Frist said the Dems had no ideas, principles or convictions.
Here's an opportunity (AN OPPORTUNITY, for any leader reading this) to prove Frist wrong and they're wavering. It disgusts me.
But if I gave up, I'd put on my headphones and head to the beach. I wouldn't call both my senators and start swearing like a sailor on a blog.
Dover Bitch |
03.15.06 - 8:57 pm | #
Mary--
Thank you for the http://www.badgerbadgerbadger.com/
link. It has entertained me for the past several minutes.
neurophius |
03.15.06 - 8:58 pm | #
OMG--You're all over here! For some reason, the type is red and I can't change it. I think EPU has cursed me at both sites.
Wesgpc: It's Cincinnati that's known for chili over spaghetti, not Wisconsin.
Heard from Moveon twice and Howard Dean once today. Oh, and the DNC. Also, regular mail from teh DNC. I said, support Feingold and I'll write a check.
dana |
03.15.06 - 9:00 pm | #
The dems we resent the most have been in Congress for a long time. (Hillary excepted, but she's no new comer.)
The old boys and girls are fat, rich and complacent. I don't think they give a flying @#% who's in power as long as their status quo is maintained. Most of the come from very safe seats, and they know they will be re elected without expending too much energy.
Thus it has been and will be UNTIL the lean, hungry and ambitious see opportunities and arrive on the scene ready to break the china and establish themselves as alpha leaders.
This is, I think, what we (netroots) are waiting for, and maybe without even know it, fomenting.
susan |
03.15.06 - 9:00 pm | #
For the record, lest there be any confusion:
I'm more looyal to the progressive movement than I am to the dem party.
I want to inflitrate and take over the dem party to make it progressive. I think that is within reach within a few years.
I believe the only way to achieve a progressive agenda in the US is through the dem party.
Accordingly, I want to do whatever I think will be successful and legal in effecting that takeover, and I intend to be reality based as I do it.
Not "I," but "us." I see this as a movement, and if I push and prod my friends here on this and around the blogosphere the way I am tonight, it's because I want us all to be successful with this goal I think most of us share. I'm trying to keep us together as a movement.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 9:01 pm | #
"But taking our anger (which I share) to such a point of action that we are willing to act so as to add Republicans to the senate majority is to me the height of foolhardiness.
How many more wars do you want?"
Pachacutec | 03.15.06 - 8:29 pm |
Pach:
You're right in that my anger is probably getting the better of me here, but (for probably the first time) I wonder how much different some of the DINOs are from Repubs. I think that several (hope not all) would willingly follow Shrub to the next war (as long as my family -- and not theirs -- fights it). You believe (I think) that even a DINO is much better than a Repub -- and I belived that too, until yesterday. Maybe tomorrow the Dems will "wake up" and support Russ. There is still hope. Anyway, thanks for the nudge in the ribs.
sonate |
03.15.06 - 9:01 pm | #
Pach, if you're still here, do you agree with the Censure Resolution being raised now or do you think it's a distraction?
zennurse |
03.15.06 - 9:02 pm | #
Pachacutec | 03.15.06 - 8:11 pm
What I do like is an organic organization combined with structured organization. Last year's Downing Street Memo protest gathered 500+ bloggers (indie500) to draw attention to the lack of media coverage; all started with a couple of posts at DKos. And then for a while there was Flood-the-Zone-Friday by notgeniuses.com. Seems like FDL offers both methodologies -- but the challenge is developing a critical mass of bloggers to work cooperatively at any given time with either or both approaches. The viral spread has to catch fire and reach a tipping point where it burns of its own accord, without being forced.
I can't get DKos to open, can't read Armando's post, but I think from what I've read so far he may have a point that might not be well articulated; when we're tearing at ourselves, throwing ashes and donning sack cloth, we aren't available to develop that critical mass, promote that tipping point, fanning the flames, what have you. We actually fall prey to the GOP's talking points that we've internalized.
F*ck that sh*t. I'm not taking it lying down any longer. We need to develop a matrix approach -- an If-Then-Else scenario for encouraging our Senators, use the two approaches for starters.
BTW, a side question to Mary, Stephen Parrish, et al, in re: Rules of the Senate and Sen. Allard's defamatory labeling of Feingold as a traitor -- is there a Senate Rule pertaining to Decorum or Conduct that prohibits such behavior? I think the House has such a rule, but the Senate's similar standing rule only applies when the Senators are debating. Anybody? Anybody?
Rayne |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 9:02 pm | #
I should note that I continue to call and email and try to move them coz that's just how I am but ...
they are not cowards, they are collaborators and since they won't *do* anything to oppose the Bush Crime family, what difference does it make that they happen to have a D after their name. They count on us always reflexively giving in and voting for them coz we fear the repubs but what, when we get down to actual govt actions, makes them a better choice. Just brainstorming here so don't jump on me but maybe if a few big dems lost coz we sat home (no $, no vote, no volunteer) the other might think again ...
of course, the more I see the clearer I feel that they do not oppose W because they really don't disagree with him - this is why huge numbers of people do not vote and I worry that we are the naive ones here who keep assuming they are just scared or listening to the wrong consultants - maybe they are doing precisely what they believe is right?
again, I remember that these are the Clinton dems - born of triangulation and the great move to "the center" ... why do we expect them to be progressive?
just thinking out loud ... each time I look at the last 3 photos on gorillablog, I want to cry ... how to we answer those children?
siun |
03.15.06 - 9:03 pm | #
Mary - thank you for your 7:44 elaboration. I plan to share it.
.
Muzzy |
03.15.06 - 9:03 pm | #
Pach --
Thanks for trying to calm down the fired up FDLers --
Persuading the Democratic Establishment to do the right thing is tough nut to crack -- when our team is going all blue face Brave Heart, the DC suits get nervous.
This is a topic for extended discussion -- the passion of the moment might preclude quiet deliberation . . .
georgia10 and the gang rocked. You can blame yours truly for the meme, Did you get the Memo?
Both concepts were sustained for a period of time, at least as long as we have between now and the election. I could see the FDL Roots Project fitting here (she says with a stifled yawn as she publishes and powers down for the night...).
Rayne |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 9:11 pm | #
After reading the comments all day here....
It's a BAD move when calling senators that you are part of an organized effort to call them, i.e. FDL or whatever. They know we are the vocal majority and while they may be sympathetic, they care about what the "silent majority" thinks. That's what KILLED the "ports deal", not us.
Cozumel |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 9:12 pm | #
As ever, I can be reached at ajschuler at erols dot com.
Pachacutec |
03.15.06 - 9:16 pm | #
I have read the links and reamin completely disgusted at Democratic reticence on this and many other subjects pertaining to the illegal, unethical and irrational acts by this administration. I hear what is said about the need to work with the core and to mutually support as we work for change. But I also agree with watertiger when she asks why we have to practically force these people to uphold the Constitution and do the jobs we elected them to do. What I hear is that we have to batter them and "shame them" until they represent us. I know we have a participatory democracy, but I don't think this is what theFounders had in mind when the gave it to us. It sounds like the tactics of the Christian Coalition to get Bush to keep abortion and gay marriage on the table and I think it stinks.
This isn't some subtle issue where there is a real question about whether bush is guilty or not, and it's not impeachment either. As we said during all the hard work we did around the Alito hearings, if not now, when? If it takes battering and shaming to move these Senators in the direction of ethical and legal correctness, then maybe they don't deserve as much support as they assume. I don't think they believe that a significant number of voters will abandon the Party over this, but I am utterly terrified of another war and have plenty of evidence already that Dem Senators may let it happen.
zennurse |
03.15.06 - 9:17 pm | #
If everything the dems do is stupid, at some point ya gotta wonder why you are a dem.
ck - why precisely should we be calmed down ... fired up seems like a good way to be at the moment
and that does not mean giving up or lacking deliberation
we get very afraid of the anger we feel and the shame of what our country is doing in our name...
from http://www.informationclearingho...ringhouse.info:
Each of the Iraqi children killed by the United States was our child. Each of the prisoners tortured in Abu Ghraib was our comrade. Each of their screams was ours. When they were humiliated, we were humiliated. The U.S. soldiers fighting in Iraq - mostly volunteers in a poverty draft from small towns and poor urban neighborhoods - are victims just as much as the Iraqis of the same horrendous process, which asks them to die for a victory that will never be theirs: Arundhati Roy, "Tide? Or Ivory Snow? Public Power in the Age of Empire," http://www.democracynow.org/
stat...ati_Trans.shtml
siun |
03.15.06 - 9:20 pm | #
Pach, also not able to open Armando's post. But, I agree with those above who have said that anger is not the same as defeatism. Any strong emotion is a great motivating force for action. Well-placed anger gets people talking, saying things publically to all and sundry. Passion does work. Of course, we need the "strategic" approach too, but to reach those who have not been reached before, well-placed anger can have a powerful role. I think that the beltway Dems need to hear the anger from the populace. Okay, maybe they need to hear the more measured words too, but I still think that getting people talking with passion, who normally don't talk with passion is only a good thing.
Valley Girl |
03.15.06 - 9:20 pm | #
Ah, come on. It was plain wrong to not tell the party first. First rule is do no harm. This didn't help us, period! Timing is everything. The majority of the country is just coming around to the fact that we're being lied to. LET IT SINK IN and while it's sinking in the Dems need to be on the air daily pointing out the misleading statements, inconsistancies, and outright lies, and the fact the Repubs refuse to do their job of oversight. Remember Bushco's house of cards is falling apart and America is watching so don't distract them. The right time will show itself, but if we turn on each other we'll blow it.
Rita |
03.15.06 - 9:23 pm | #
"silent majority"
Unless Iraq takes a turn for the better, that huge, amorphous group of Americans will go to the polls in the fall and vote out the Republicans.
For the last three months, I have been conducting my own not-so-scientific survey around my community. The message these otherwise tuned out people have gotten is that Bush got us into a war that we are LOSING. They are furious, and they are going to vote AGAINST his party.
I live in the Denver area, and anger toward all things Bush is quickly escalating. People are seething.
My concern is not that we won't be the majority in the Nov., but do we know how to lead? Where will we take the country?
susan |
03.15.06 - 9:26 pm | #
Rita, I'm not necessarily turning on them, I feel they are turning on me. With all we know about the lies before the war, the lies bush has told us in speeches and the secrecy he and cheney want as thier atmosphere, as well as the filthy dealings done on the floor of the Senate by Republicans to get thier nefarious agenda pushed through, Democratic Senators have a president who has said he will continue to commit this crime and is actively sending henchmen into Congress to get his way. His buddies in the Majority are giving us and the Dems in the Senate a bunch of nonsense and lip service about oversight with which bush will never comply. I am very angry that senators with the experience of Feinstein and Kennedy will not even sign on to this because they think they will actually get some kind of answers in the sham committe oversight investigation. It is beyond belief that with a president who is at 33% and a VP at 18% who are sending more troops to Iraq and preparing to preemtively strike Iran against international disagreement, Democratic Senators actually believe there is anything to discuss or wait for.
zennurse |
03.15.06 - 9:32 pm | #
Rita,
Feingold is giving up on his own party. He knows that informing them would've done jack squat, and for that matter we don't know he DIDN'T inform them. He acted because they wouldn't, and trusted that something good would come out of an honorable action. It will.
As for lying just starting to sink in and the right time coming, LOL, what'll be the right time? When we nuke Poland?? I doubt the Democrats would do much about that, either.
MarcLord |
03.15.06 - 9:35 pm | #
Rita wrote:
The majority of the country is just coming around to the fact that we're being lied to. LET IT SINK IN
This is not accurate - the majority of the people in this country believe the war was not a good idea - look at the polls.
The only people who don't seem to understand popular opinion seem to be the dems who are still thinking it's 2001.
And while the country has turned against Bush and the republicans, the dems popularity is tanking ... weren't the numbers lower than Cheney's for Dem Senators?
People will not continue to support the republicans but the Dems need to give them some reason to get out and support Dems - so far they are failing on that part of the task - and when they fail to take back either house, they will once again claim that this is a justification for climbing even further into W's lap.
siun |
03.15.06 - 9:46 pm | #
good point, susan, and an excellent question. How will the Democrats govern if they can't agree on this clear-cut and obvious issue? What will they be waiting for then as they approach every decision with process instead of progressive action? If nothing else, this is demonstrating for me that many dems are just as disconnected from the opinions and needs of "the people" as all of the Republican Party.
Now we have a Task Force on where to take the country led by our old buddy James Baker. I'm sure that report (costing what?) will give us all a laugh, just like the Abu Ghraib investigation and the internal investigation into the Katrina response. Can you imagine that James Baker will listen to anyone who says Bush is a liar? The press will follow him like lapdogs and he will simply say, "It's all good. Nothing to see here, move along." And here we have Bolton saying he can't sign onto a Human Rights Council, ???maybe because the US might be implicated. Sure, it will be a pointless council with a number of membars involved in abuses, but it's just another example of bush administration irony.
Sorry about these rants, really, but my reaction to the Armando post and some of the comments about it were a little like a pat on the head for the cranky children who need to calm down by the wiser grown ups. It pisses me off to be told I should edit myself about something as important as the constitution and the illegal acts of the president of the united states.
Zenn dear friend - don't settle down - we are right to be furious and right to say so.
Tonight on Chicago local tv, big story was 2 suspicious happenings at big skyscrapers - inc. the Sears Tower - we're not supposed to worry but of course we're supposed to worry and then cheer for W when he bombs Iran (or has his buddies in Israel do it)
we should all reread egregious above:
Can war against Iran be stopped?
Are we truly determined to have yet another war of aggression?
How did Germans turn into Nazis?
Answer: little by little.
We are becoming the new Nazis.
I wish I were exaggerating.
I am right there with you. I don't need anybody telling me to calm down. The only people acting like CHILDREN are the senators who apparently don't know an obvious case of right vs. wrong when it presents itself and react to boldness and principle by running to the AP to gripe without attribution.
Anybody who points to the reactions of bloggers and blames us for the problems with the DC Dems is no different in my book than the GOPers who blame the media for the problems in Iraq. We're not making the party look bad. It's doing that to itself.
Feingold issues his motion to censure. Democratic Senator, do you ...
A) Say "Yes, the executive of the country must be held accountable!"
B) Sigh privately and say "Yes, the executive of the country must be held accountable!"
or C) Say "Uh, I don't know" and then call the Washington Post to bitch about Feingold and provide a lame excuse as to why you have priorities other than defending the Constitution.
If the answer's not A, then it better be B or Dover Bitch is going to call you out, like it or not.
Dover Bitch |
03.15.06 - 9:57 pm | #
I am heading for some sleep but I ask everyone to go to markfromireland's blog and look closely and long at the three photos Erdla has posted there (Erdla is our friend Dubhaltach's fiance - who is serving in Afghanistan with non-US forces) - look closely at these photos then think about all of this again:
democratic underground has a tally on the censure call. keep pestering your congressperson to come out and get behind feingold. an avalanche can start slowly. it's only been two days since the call was made. our job is to be tenacious and relentless.
is it a surprise that rush limpbough is rallying the republican base? is it a shock that mehlman says it will end up hurting the democrats? do we expect them to just lie down and roll over? a cornered rat is dangerous. it will fight to the death.
remember: take names and kick ass.
coyote |
Homepage |
03.15.06 - 10:43 pm | #
Say what you will about Jessica Simpson, but you can't say the girl doesn't know how to read the American public.
Zennurse, unless the Dems get back either house nothing will change that's just a fact. You're right Bush won't comply and the Repubs won't make him. Censuring Bush NOW won't change Iraq, stop Iran, or stop the illegal activities. Not everyone is a political junkie most people have no idea the scope of what's really going on but lots are paying attention right now because of the ports. So what are they hearing - cowards no ideas, blowing it. What is it 8 months until elections, I say we keep the focus on all the wrongs of the Republicans including the illegalities and not us. MarcLord, I agree Fiengold's action was honorable and something very good may come of it but any action that makes use look weak doesn't help. It has to be done smartly if were going to get the power that will allow us to bring Bush & Co to account & stop them & yes, censure Bush too.
Rita |
03.15.06 - 11:04 pm | #
Sorry if he disturbed anyone's peaceful slumber...
I often wonder if the "K Street Projet" idea of pressuring for Republican lobbyists wasn't also done to the DC Media as well.
owlbear1 |
03.16.06 - 4:20 am | #
zennurse | 03.15.06 - 9:46 pm | #
I never, ever said calm down.
I never, ever said don't be angry.
I have, for myo own part, advocated staying in this fight for the long haul and I have agrgued for my own perception of strategic focus, which includes recognizing these half-wit, lemming dems for what they are, and still making sure the vehicle we seek to overtake in support of a progressive agenda is not further weakened, putting more Republicans in office in '06 and '08 than we need to.
Because I don't like the fucking wars either.
And I'm frankly getting a little pissed off myself that people are assuming I'm saying or meaning things I'm not. I mean, frustration here can go both ways.
It's not pleasant having these struggles here with my friends. I don't seek it out. BUt I hope my credibility around here is such that I'm not to be accused of patting people on the head. I find that unfair.
Pachacutec |
03.16.06 - 5:06 am | #
how 'bout: "together we can't bother" ?
Flying Dutchman |
03.16.06 - 6:05 am | #
This response to Feingold is all about 2008 and Clinton. He moved to take the lead in the Dem party and the rest of the Dems aren't having it. They are being good Clinton soldiers. Seems obvious.
J. Post |
Homepage |
03.16.06 - 6:37 am | #
I called Senator Menendez's Washington office to thank him. They say he hasn't taken a position on the censure resolution yet.
greenmountainsailor |
03.16.06 - 6:52 am | #
I am looking for the page that lists senators who will support the Feingold on Democratic Underground and can't find it. That is frustrating.
mui |
03.16.06 - 7:06 am | #
the democratic leadership is beholding to the same corporate masters as the republicans, it is not in thier interests to lead on the issues.
feingold scares them precisely because he will not heed thier advice.
americans have shown they will follow leadership, even bad leadership(bush, cheney) if they behave as if they have a backbone.
the grassroots democrats have more of the interests of an opposition party trying to regain power than do the democratic leadership.
einstein |
03.16.06 - 7:12 am | #
I mean I can't find a link for senators who support Feingold's censure proposal.
mui |
03.16.06 - 7:13 am | #
Censuring Bush right now is just dumb politics.
The only thing Democrats should be concerned with right now is taking back the senate , House, Governorships, and State legislatures.
After that, you can run Bush's ass out of town on a rail.
The Republicans are already using the censure vote to try to jack up their turnout for 2006. Claiming it is really impeachment.
Democrats are already at near record highs for the generic vote for Congress. Bush is collapsing. Stop handing them a weapon to shoot at us with.
Withdraw this resolution now. Kick their asses in November, re-intoduce it in December.
We can stop Bush for good by winning in November. We can't do it now. Get real people and get to work!
TOM |
03.16.06 - 7:51 am | #
Withdrawing the resolution will hurt '06 chances all around, unless you think dem turnout is unnecessary.
Pachacutec |
03.16.06 - 8:03 am | #
Fuck the party. Aren't these the same guys that brought us all yes votes (sic Feingold) on the Patriot (duh..there's some bad shit in there...I don't like it now) Act, yes on the Iraq war (waaahh...they lied us into it...)? Aren't these the same chumps that brought us "Filibuster Alito? Nah, wouldn't be nice." I'm sittin' the next one out. I'll be ready for the resistance when Dems come out of their narcoleptic stupor, but for now, these guys are such morons I hate to be seen in public with them.
noshrub |
03.16.06 - 8:39 am | #
"They are all waddling around now saying that they'll withhold judgment until the Intelligence Committee finishes its investigation. Do they not realize that the Republicans effectively killed that investigation on March 7?.
Apparently NOT. I just called Feinstein for the 3rd day in a row and that's exactly the line they handed me. I said, the Repubs. effectively killed that investigation on March 7. They are not investigating anything. Staffer, irritated, said, WELL, THEY ARE? I said, I want her to get on board w/Boxer and the others who are supporting if not cosponsoring Feingold's resolution. She needs to be with the Dems. on this.
lhstrunk |
03.16.06 - 9:45 am | #
Where is Obama? He needs to step up or risk losing the faith of the people. I think I'll call and tell him that.
The future Mrs Feingold |
03.16.06 - 10:22 am | #
"315 comments"
This issue is huge.
Carl |
03.16.06 - 12:17 pm | #
God forbid a Democrat should show leadership qualities!
The terrorists are in the WH...that is the problem...and they don't want any laws interfering with their agenda....so, they terrorize congress to pass a law protecting them...lawlessness is now the rule...
Mary H |
03.17.06 - 9:02 am | #
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Kortny39 |
Homepage |
02.12.07 - 12:17 am | #
