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great post. great great post. thank you.
And Flea will fight for your right to purchase The Domestic Partner Black Vinyl Chocolate Fudge Mocha Ripple Probe 
Sorry. I think I got it mixed up with Ben and Jerry's.
It would have been nice if Bright had managed to pay tribute to one feminist without taking a swipe at other feminists.
You know, I struggled in writing my own brief mention of Dworkin's death not to do that "I didn't fully agree with her, but..." thing. And then my friend Dorcasina (http://etaliae.blogspot.com/2005/04/worth-price-
of-admission.html) wrote a eulogy saying exactly what you are saying here, and I misremembered my own post and thought I'd done that "I didn't agree but" thing, and then I checked back and I hadn't. But the fact is, I had to work hard not to. It was very illuminating. For all I get annoyed when young women say, "I'm not a feminist, but..." the fact is that most of us, I think, say that sometimes, at some moments, in indirect ways, because feminism is still thrown at us as an insult.
Am thinking a lot about this lately b/c of having recently been subject to a lot of vitriolic b.s. over being "too" "irritating," "too slutty," "too radical" "too man-hating" by people (men, as Dworkin would force me to admit) who I had thought were my friends, until I tried to hold them to account. Am struggling with the desire to blog about it, in contrast with the desire not to seem petty. Am hoping that thinking about Dworkin will give me the guts to do it.
And like you, I'm determined not to say "well, I didn't agree with everything she said, but..." in the future.
Yep, Dr. B, after reading all those posts about Dworkin it really became clear how defensive we all sound when saying something positive about Dworkin, that we don't think about doing when discussing *anybody* else. She just doesn't deserve that, especially from other feminists. I'm sorry you're having struggles with people in your real life.
I had meant to say that Nina Hartley's post in Bright's blog could be boiled down to "She hurt my feelings," but decided it was too flip. Hurt feelings *hurt*, you know?
And I want to make it clear I'm totally guilty of doing this, all the time.
*clap clap* Thanks, flea. You are a hell of a writer. I didn't want to touch this with a ten foot pole. I'm a bomb-thrower myself, though my politics are hardly radical, and so my sympathies are with Dworkin. I'm not surprised that Bright wrote a good eulogy. She, as far as I know, never claimed to dislike Dworkin.
Haloscan is acting weird. Test.
This blows me away, Flea. I agree with what you say.
That wasn't B'rer Rabbit who said that, it was Thumper. Sort of irrelevant, but I couldn't resist mentioning it.
I also have prefaced my comments about Dworkin with a disclaimer, but that's partially because the majority of times I've spoken of her in the past, I've been arguing against her. Within many feminist communities, the sex wars still go on, and as I am a leatherdyke, you can probably imagine where Dworkin and I differ.
However, with her death, I've been thinking a lot about her work in the big picture, and I find I am proud and fiercely protective of her. On the points where we disagreed, I never felt that she was coming from a place of hate or fear, as many right-wingers do. Countering her arguments is hard, and I have so much respect for her because of it.
So where I used to talk about how she is wrong (with a disclaimer that I do agree with her on many points), I found myself these last few days talking about how she is right (with a disclaimer that I disagree with her on some points). For me, where I'm coming from, that disclaimer definitely does not involve "I'm no man-hater" defensiveness, but an attempt to honestly figure out where I stand regarding her theory-- which I like the Bright described it, impossible theory, but not absurd.
You rock, flea.
Thumper! That's right! Ack, well, at least I got the rabbit part right.
hey, flea, just wanted to say thanks. I was one of those "yes, but" people, and this post inspired me to go back and take another look at what I wrote. (I quoted from this post in my blog - if that's a problem, please let me know.)
Great post, flea. But you should see all of the venomous misogyny that those dipshit "men's/father's rights" activists are spewing about her and feminists in general on Trish Wilson's blog. It's disgusting. And they say we're the haters?! One of the great things about AD is that she didn't take shit from anyone and didn't hesistate to call certain sexist men out for their shit.
I believe it, Adrienne. Trish's comments section is hard to read sometimes.
Oh, and no problem at all, Hybrid, thanks!
I didn't agree with everything Susie said, but... nicely done, Flea.
Yes, we have all had our "but..." moments when it comes to Dworkin. I was doing a little research on her death too, Flea, and was disheartened that a common site for encyclopedia-like, supposedly non-biased, information greatly defamed any positive recognition for Dworkin in her biography.
Check it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And.../
Andrea_Dworkin
When are children are researching the internet for feminist greats one day, its sad to know that this is the viewpoint they may get of Dworkin.
Hey, flea, I really like the part where you say, "Now I don't agree with what he said about the four humours, but..." 
I needed a good laugh.
And I wrote a post in which I said just what you said there in the beginning of your blog entry, though a bit more, um, directly, on my boards early this morning, so I enjoyed reading your thoughts along the same lines.
I did want to say that Susie Bright did something I think was really pretty unconscionable in the blog entry you linked to-- she described Andrea Dworkin as having had a nervous breakdown when her father died. And why was that? Because Bright never believed Dworkin was raped a few years back. She didn't believe her. And that's a hell of a thing to think or to say, much less to include in your theoretical "tribute" to someone.
I also wanted to say that there have always been prostituted women like Nina Hartley in the world. I don't wish them any harm, I want good things for them, but I also think it's wrong to suggest that Andrea Dworkin's work had or has anything at all to do with what Nina Hartley does or with what Susie Bright does, or that it's because of Andrea Dworkin's work that we have Susie Bright's or Nina Hartley's work or however Bright wanted that to go down. I think Andrea Dworkin wanted Susie Bright and Nina Hartley and all prostituted women to be free.
Heart
Thanks, Heart. I think what Bright meant, and I totally see where she's coming from, was that Dworkin was the one that got so many women thinking about sex, pornography, men, and their relationships to all three in the first place. Although (obviously) Bright came to a vastly different conclusion, she rightfully credits Dworkin with making her think. I think Bright was right on to recognize it and give Dworkin credit. Dworkin did not like Bright's conclusions, certainly, but once we put our words out there we can't really control in what ways different people will be influenced by them. I'm coming over to the Margins now to see what you wrote.
Erin - I agree. After reading the Washington Post hack job, I was wishing someone who had respect for Dworkin could write an obit. Then I thought, if every feminist wrote one, there would be thousands of voices countering the negative ones.
Maybe I'm coming from a really weird place. I didn't want to say "I didn't agree with her on everything" because if I did, it would come off as defensive, and well, kind of aquiescent.
But it was the crux of my feeling for her--the niggling disagreements and her prose and fuck you attitude just kept me coming back for more. I loved how her writing and her philosophy challenged me. She was coherent, poetic, and forceful.
Well, but I just can't see that Bright gave Andrea Dworkin anything that would have felt, *to* Dworkin, like credit. In the course of that "tribute," Bright alleges that Dworkin had a nervous breakdown (without explaining that that's Bright's judgment because Bright didn't believe Dworkin had been raped), she says things like that Dworkin didn't do any class analysis or have any psychological insight (!), and she repeatedly accuses Dworkin of vilifying her and mistreating her in various ways. She claims to have been surprised over the opposition to _On Our Backs_, but how could she have been? The name was a take-off of, and a big "fuck-you" to _Off Our Backs_, the Second Wave radical feminist journal which has always been anti-pornography for 30 years and long before, obviously, _On Our Backs_ got its start.
I think Bright sandwiched enough of what sounded like "credit" -- even though I don't think Andrea Dworkin would have understood it to *be* at all -- amongst the gratuitous digs and revisionist history that she could pull what amounts to imo a self-serving, disingenuous piece off as a tribute, sort of, at least get away with it. But from where I sit, talk about kicking a woman when she's down. 
Heart
"Well, but I just can't see that Bright gave Andrea Dworkin anything that would have felt, *to* Dworkin, like credit."
Heh, can't argue with that.
I've never read Dworkin. Which book is a good place to start?
I started with "Letters From A War Zone," which is a collection of her speeches. Small bites, easier to digest. A lot of them are up at http://www.nostatus.quo in the Dworkin section. I thought Scapegoat was good, too. I was unable to get through Mercy, however, as I found it to be really repetitive. I've heard good things about Heartbreak, but haven't read it yet.
I'd start with her autobiography. Until I read that, I couldn't even begin to start on any of her other stuff with an open mind. Once I read it, she made a lot more sense to me, and (ehem) even though I still didn't agree with much of what she said, I was far more able to understand where she was coming from.
I completely agree with Heart. I thought Bright's piece was very self serving and a sort of backhanded slap that if she really thought what Andrea would say about it would have reconsidered some parts.
I do not think most pornographers and prostitutes were fans of Dworkin's work before changing their minds and going pro-porn, and I find such an assertion insulting. It presumes a "we've been there and done that but then rejected it out of a place of admiration, education and understanding of Dworkin."
Maybe that's Bright's true opinion, maybe not, but to suggest it's the reality of how a good portion pornographers and prostitutes came to their beliefs, after careful inspection of Andrea Dworkin's writings, seems like a big pile of something smelly.
flea, nicely put about the "but I didn't agree with her" stuff. It's always a pleasure to see someone put my inarticulated feelings into words.
I'll apologize for respecting Andrea when conservatives apologize for respecting the scumbags who talk about conscience when they mean domination. Not until.
I'm not holdling my breath.
And did you know the rape quote she's been blamed for for decades was actually dreamed up by Cal Thomas, that conservative shithead columnist?
Ginmar! It's so nice to see you! Welcome home!
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