Comments Lounge
Ah, yes, another chapter for your memoir. Have you put that book proposal together yet? You are a swooningly good writer.
I'm not sure if Ben is more of a Chris or an Alex. Older boys or bitchy alpha girls at the playground will sometimes tell him to scram, telling me, "He won't quit following me. Make him stop." (Sorry, stranger kid, you're on your own there.) Is Ben's persistence of the "please like me" type, or the "fuck you, I'm in this game too" type? I seriously can't tell.
Argh, heartbreaking. Maybe as Christopher gets a little older, he'll be able to explain to Alex the things that mama can't.
PK is somewhere between the two. He can stand up for himself, but when people start getting mean he tends to just wander back to me and say "those kids are mean. Why don't they want to play with me?" And it breaks my damn heart every time.
*sigh* This is all too familiar. I put up with the same abuse. I, too, just wanted to play. But after a number of years of abuse, I think I also just thought that that was the way people were supposed to treat me, even though I didn't like it.
It's funny, but tonight Eric and I were talking and I was telling him of two of the times I got the asshole bullies back (both boys), and that I savor those times of retribution, as they were pretty scarce.
As for Christopher's moxie: Wow. Lapsed Buddhist here, but still I'd have to say that Christopher is a very old soul -- an old man in a baby's body. Very impressive, really, that he has enough of a sense of himself to not let anyone push him around. It took me decades to get to that point, LA.
My son, Jimmy, went through the same thing and reacted as I did, until, like me, he'd had enough and when he felt that enough was enough, he fought back, and hard. But I do understand how hard it is to see -- much more difficult for me even then the memory of my own misery.
As for King, you've nailed two of my favorites, too. I was a 14 when Carrie first came out, and I've been reading him ever since -- for better and for worse. I read The Stand when it first came out. I had a fresh cold, and let me tell you, it made it even creepier for me (of course I knew I didn't have Captain Tripps, but still). I have to say, I also liked the way he told the story of The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon, until the end.
M-o-o-n, that spells: wonderful, and at times heartrending, entry, LA.
Trivia that may or might not be true: The Stand was the first DVD to be double-sided/dual layer for the DVD-18 spec.
This is beautiful. Thank you.
Oh, flea.
What an amazing post, Flea.
I was (am, to be honest) more like Alex, and I can see why it would break your heart. But I agree that there is the distinct possibility that Christopher will be able to help Alex with that. Wish I'd had a sibling like that.
Thanks for a great post. I used to think it was just girls who acted that way but I guess it isn't, if Alex is going through it too.
I was also like you, and my main abusers were a pair of sisters from a messed up family across the street. I let them do all manner of outlandish and horrible things to me. My only escape was when I was enlisted by the boys to come and play with them instead (being the only tomboy girl on the street, and more than willing to play the role of Daisy Duke when asked). This of course enraged the girls further, and ensured that my next "play session" with them would be even more brutal and abusive.
And yeah, I think maybe if my little brother had been more like Christopher, it might have helped me learn to stand up for myself.
Monkey, my eight year old, is a big time jumper. She doesn't take shit from anyone. She still gets her feelings hurt, but she waits until she's home to express that.
I don't know where she gets it from, either, because my husband and I were both the kinds of kids who took it and went back for more.
If you wrote a book I'd stand in line in the rain to get a copy. You are an amazingly good writer.
It took me until I was almost 30 to stand up for myself. What did it for me was martial arts, Tae Kwon Do and then Karate. Learning how to defend myself physically made something click so I realized it was ok to defend myself in other ways, too. Having an outlet where it was ok to scream and kick things several times a week didn't hurt, either. Maybe that would be an option for Alex at some point?
Ah, the Christophers. They are the heroes of the playground, especially when they stand up for others as well as themselves. I wish I'd been that wise too.
To this day, and I'm 37, I don't like it if people are mad at me. So I don't say what I really think or mean. One day, perhaps, I will get a spine.
Words of hopeful comfort:
I never once stood up to a bully, I just wandered away from them. I didn't exist in exactly the same dimension.
I've found that while happiness and faith in people and unearned trust are vanishingly rare, people do come to accept it, later in life, and respect it.
I have to agree with Candace (and not just because I'm Candace, too).
My Christopher was much like Alex; unwilling or unable to fight back, to just walk away. Then he started Tae Kwon Do, and everything changed.
If someone mistreats him now, he just walks away. No explanations, no tears, just walks away and is done with it.
I'm sure age has something to do with it, too. As he gets older (he's 8 now) he seems much more able to navigate the social waters.
Then there's my daughter, the most popular five-year-old in the neighborhood. The older girls love her, too. I'm trying to teach her to be kind to EVERYone, in the hopes that she won't grow up to be Suzy. She's awfully sweet, though, so I'm not too worried.
I'm kind of speechless here. This hurt to read. And the worst thing? He will never believe you because he won't believe that you understand how he feels--until he grows up and realizes you knew the whole time.
Wow. Great story. I'm neither - when I get bullied, I cry. I never seem to actually get mad, just upset.
I was born in the late 60's and my mom was 39. I'll be your friend.
Wow.
I started off as Alex, and started morphing into Christopher. If anyone got physical with me, I thought to myself, "I win."
After I got back from Japan and told the last know-it-all bully in my life to go fuck herself, I officially became Satan. I swear.
Sometimes I worry that I learned a little too much from the bullies, but when its the bullies who are yelping at my response, I stop caring.
Great story Flea. I love the way you bridge what happened today with those Carolina stories from yesterday - and all with such a delicate touch. Your descriptions of your life growing up have real texture too - not just another postwar suburb in any town. The picture of the school reminded me of the movie The Chidren's Hour with Audrey Hepburn and Shirley MacLaine - ground breaking at the time, if you haven't seen it. The bully thing is so hard. I went through something very similar with my sons. I am still not sure what I would do different today. When a child doesn't stand up, they tend to learn diplomacy, toughness on the other hand comes with its own burden. You seem to be doing exactly the right things - watching closely, loving constantly, and cooking plenty of zuccini.
My girl-child is more like your Christopher. And my boy-child is more like your Alex. While I'm concerned and sad and trying very hard to show my son how to be more self-confident and defend himself, I'm pleased as all-get-out that my daughter doesn't take shit from anybody, and will just kick ASS as she gets older. I'm learning a lot from her!
I'm a little suspicious of either the "ignore the bully" or "make the bully respect you" advice -- because neither seems to reduce the number of bullies.
I highly recommend a little book called "You Can't Say You Can't Play," written by Vivian Paley, a kindergarten teacher who observes her class as she and they implement this rule over the course of one school year. Children aren't allowed to exclude other children from play -- the primary way that children control who's in and who's out. She notes that if allowed to go on, some kids are simply excluded because they have a history of being excluded, and this pattern can persist for years as the kids go through the grades. She simply reports what the kids say and do. Not surprisingly, the kids who like the policy the least are popular girls, who use and benefit the most from creating exclusivity.
At my playground, it's a big deal if one kid hits another kid. The hitter's parent will really get on the kid's case. Kids themselves feel perfectly ok about telling an adult about it.
What if exclusion were similarly un-ok?
I think it's good to note, also, that bullying is terrible for the bullied, but it's not that great for the bully, either. It's hard to imagine many dedicated schoolyard bullies, male or female, end up with successful and satisfying lives. Bullying teaches them to pay attention to and value things that are actively hostile to them getting and keeping a good job or staying in a relationship.
God, this brings back memories. I was "cool" up until I was in 4th grade when I made the most appalling fashion choice ever, to choose glasses with frames shaped like stop signs. It's pretty sad to know that I lost all popularity over octagon glasses but there you have it.
I put up with a lot of crap as well, just wanting to fit in and knew a lot of Suzy's. The older I get, though, the more I've realized that a) I really don't care what people think because hey, I'll just read a book and ignore them, b) I am completely cool in my own weird and bizarre way and c) happy pills really help with depression that stems from a lifetime of being told that I was too fat, stupid, etc.
The Stand is my favorite book by Stephen King and every time I read it I get a cold. Every time I am convinced that the end of the world is coming. And clowns completely freak me out after It.
I love your writing, flea. I really wish you would publish a book. You are brilliant.
Gorgeous writing, flea. Somebody told me once that having kids is like watching your heart walk around in the world without you, unprotected. Sounds like you already knew that though. Lucky kids they are to have you.
Who won the Hitachi Harry Potter Thingy?
Oh, flea, I nearly cried for Alex, too. I put up with years of shit (like when Brenda and Gina entertained themselves by throwing worms at me), while my younger sister was Ms. Popularity. The main thing that helped me was my parents, especially my dad: they love(d) me just as I am, and that helped me BE who I am. It has also taught me how to figure out which fights are worth fighting and which you're better off walking away from. But my heart still breaks for Alex.
Excellent post. I read it twice.
I was going to post my crappy-friend story here, but it's too long; I'll save it for my blog. Suffice to say, what you describe is all too common. I had the benefit of moving frequently as a kid, though, so any torture I got never lasted more than a year, then it was off to a new neighborhood. That did teach me something about not needing other kids, because I was going to move away from them soon anyway, which made me more of a loner than a victim most of the time.
Though my strength and weakness, now and then, is that I could never *understand* meanness...I tend to be more puzzled than angered by it, at first. I had to learn when and how to be angered by it, and most important, how to spot it. That took me till adulthood, really.
ditto on the 'just ignore them'. Useless, USELESS advice, and it hurts to see the kids I babysit/nanny being told that. You know what solved my bullying problem when I was a scared fourth-grader? Hitting back, pulling hair, and cussing. I might have gotten a reputation as a fifth-grade badass and potential lesbian, but I had my friends and was, after that first hellish year where I 'just ignored them', able to do my own thing without trouble. Of course, I can't tell other people's children to resort to violence.
I was a bully exactly once. I made fun of a friend's haircut in middle school. It haunts me to this day.
In the case of kids who may turn out to have particularly hard rows to hoe in redneck county - examples I know of, the eleven-year-old with the crush on another girl, the first-grade boy who will only wear girl's clothing, just about any young woman anywhere - shutting down and becoming passive and socially isolated when bullied is the _worst possible thing_. It could turn out to be a deadly response.
For the record, it was when I started martial arts in late middle school that I both stopped hitting bullies and gained the strength to just walk away from them.
I love your blog today. I am just like Alex too. Everytime I think I'm beyond it, I realize I am letting another group of girls behave like this to me again. I am almost 30 and still getting hit in the face with the shovel. I wish I was a Christopher.
1) Christopher is hilarious.
2) I would so totally haul my kids to your house to play. I think yours and my oldest would probably get along really well (actually, the 3 year old would probably gravitate towards Alex). The baby, she's not quite sitting up yet so she wouldn't be entering the equation.
Now I just have to figure out how to convince my husband a convenient reason to be in Chicago...
I have enjoyed your blog ever since the profile in the Tribune. And of course it's your blog, and you can do what you want. But I wonder if I'm the only one who wishes you would remove the photo of the vibrator and ease up on all the vibrator and sex toy and sex book photos in general (or put them on a separate blog.) I find myself having to hastily click off whenever my kids enter the room. I'm sure this must be an even bigger problem for people who read your blog from work. I suppose people aren't supposed to be reading for pleasure at work anyway, but even on lunch hour I'd never chance it. Just giving you honest feedback. Does anyone else feel this way?
I seem to be keeping the same rereading schedule for "The Stand" - and agree that the cutting room floor stuff belonged there (I own the unabridged cinder block version). I have to say that I gave up on Stephen a while back though - later books just never added up to "Salem's Lot" (still cringe when I look at my Ginsue knives) and "The Shining" (can't anyone manage to make this into a movie that FOLLOWS the book???)
But it was more the rest of the post that got me. As another kid that just wanted to play, and suffered the abuse of an abused next door neighbor with an unmedicated psychologically abusive bipolar dad for 13 years - quietly and willingly - I just wanted to cry. I see the same tendencies in my oldest - a little smarter than the average bear, getting along better with teachers than peers, but just wanting to play. It breaks my heart and there isn't a damn thing I can do to help.
Oh, this is just beautiful .
I'm in tears.
I have stood up to bullies before, but never like I did this weekend when I realized I was being bullied by what I used to think was my closest friend. At some point I realized she was never much of a friend in the first place.
I fretted over it and worried and rehearsed and worried some more. Then when she came over to talk, I let loose. I was honest, formal, and didn't take her shit.
Somwhere aloong the way I went from being Christopher to Alex and back. It's scary, and it's scary to see my son bowl over. I have told him time and time again to do whatever is within his power to protect himself, and if that means being a tattletale, or conversely, getting in a fight, I don't give a shit. I never want anything bad to happen to my baby, but most of all I want him to realize that he has the agency to control some of the bad things that come along.
my whole class was a bunch of Suzy's. To the point where my mother, a public school teacher in the same town, wanted to transfer me to the local private school. No good, it was like that in all the schools. It was my whole grade. It was the weirdest thing the teachers tell me, just about everyone was a bully. I have no friends from my high school class, but tons in the grades above and below.
I feel for you and Alex, I too kept trying to be friends with them. And I didn't learn until college it just wasn't worth it.
Oh and I just recently read The Stand, and I love it. I got the unabridged version. I read it because the gunslinger series references it. I agree that his books aren't as good since he stopped the drinking and the drugs, but if he hadn't stopped, he never would have finished the Gunslinger series. So I consider it to be a good trade off.
Re. the idea that "ignore bullies" is bad advice: I have to disagree, with an explanation. Becoming passive is obviously a bad idea, but when I was a kid, I "ignored" bullies in I guess an active way, and it worked pretty well most of the time. Like, the girl who came over to my table at lunch to demand that I stand up right now so she could kick my ass: I looked at her, said, "I'm not interested in fighting you," and when she kept it up said, "look, I'm going to finish my lunch now," and ignored her until she finally had to wander off. I was petrified, of course, but I guess it didn't show and came off more as disdain. There were a lot of other similar situations where my response was basically to just tell the bullies flat-out that I wasn't impressed and then ignore them.
Maybe that's a form of standing up. I dunno. I certainly would never have fought them--although there was one girl who I did, eventually, have to flail at ineffectively, which surprisingly worked. But I did find that the pose of contemptuous superiority was a great protector in elementary school.
I hear you, flea. My parents saved me from this with one simple thing - a move to a public school district full of geeky kids. I had an awful time in junior high because, well, junior high kids just suck, but by high school, I found a niche and friends, and nothing keeps you fro being bullied like having friends. We were weird, but we were weird together. Those people are till some of the people closest to me in the world.
Hang in there. Alex will jump and Alex will make friends. If I did, anyone can.
"Jumping" once they have seen you cave, or sometimes even if they have never seen you cave may just provoke them to get more friends to hold you down while they kick you in the stomach and ribs and spit on you. At least that is my experience. It did not get better at all until we moved, and then things were not really ok until I moved out of the house. My heart goes out to Alex. Sometimes there are no easy answers.
Worse advice than "ignore them" is "don't scream and they will get bored and stop hitting you." They will just hit harder and start kicking too.
My daughter faced down a bully and his older brother and comforted the other little girls he shoved. I was so relieved and proud.
flea, between you & frog, your recent blog entries have provided so much I can identify with that I feel like crying - and that's not hyperbole.
I was an Alex as a kid, and grew into one as an adult, with this exception:
"He tolerates it with relentless good cheer, just hoping he can change things by his good spirit and enthusiasm"
Maybe I had that as a kid , but if I did, I lost it quite early.
I've had only occasional flashes of Christopher, like the time I was physically harassed / assaulted at university, & punched the asshole who did it. It's not quite teh same thing, however, as being bullied by people whom you want or expect to like you: I've never learned how to deal with that.
By the way - I wanted to comment on your bookblog, but can't because I don't have a blog, so can't have a blogger login.
I, too, re-read The Stand periodically, every 2 or three years. Everyone disappears is a favorite theme, along with stranded on a desert island.
I was a kid like your Christopher. My mom was always surprised that my older brother was so shy and reserved, and at three I would stand up and tell my pre-K teacher where to go if I felt something was out of line (like naptime)--and up the stairs I would march to go home.
Oddly enough, being the "fuck you" kind of kid really didn't help any when it came to girl friendships. I was always the one not willing to follow the pack, and that would make me the odd one out, too.
Thanks for the great post.
I was an Alex as well (still have strong tendencies that way). I remember two small but vital instances that helped me stand up for myself. I was in 5th grade and saw some 3rd grade girls picking on another 3rd grader. I so sympathized with the picked-upon that I went over and yelled at the pickers and threatened them with violence (I'll whomp your asses was the phrase, I think) and then comforted the picked-upon. And amazingly there were no bad repercussions, so I realized I could stand up to people (sometimes). The other itty-bitty "jump" was when I was about 11 or 12 and buying a poster. The bin said the poster was $5.00 but when the cashier rang it up she said it was $7.50. I almost agreed and then worked up the courage to say no - the bin says $5.00. And the cashier said okay! It was those tiny incidents that helped give me the faith to make those jumps.
But I always believed that the picked-upon become far better people than the pickers.
I was Alex. I had the anger, but my religious upbringing kept me from kicking ass and taking names, my whole school life. Doing that a couple of times would have probably changed the entirety of my school experiences. I wish i had really and truly stood up for myself, but i always did exactly what you described yourself doing. Reading your post opened up a pocket of sadness in my heart that i forgot was there. And i truly hope that my kid will be a Chris. And, i will NOT tell her to ignore the goddamn bullies, but to stand there and fight for her dignity, no matter how scared she is. But my kid is fierce, and i don't think she will have to worry about that. Is that Aiken, SC, btw? I live very near Aiken.
Oh, for all of us to have an inkling of Christopher's strength, especially Alex (who deserves it)!
A beautifully written account, LA. Yet again.
Beautiful post, Flea. I was an Alex too, which lasted up until I was 18 and living with my aunt and uncle and psychotic cousin who abused me. Finally, finally, I realized that people who tell you they fantasize about killing you, do not love you (and if they did, that's a kind of love you don't want). Even if sometimes they're nice, it's not worth it.
20 years of therapy as an adult have taught me my own worth, and how to defend myself (or just walk away).
Too bad my family takes my cousin's side, and thinks I should give him another chance (what? to kill me this time? I don't think so). They all, him included, liked me better when I was a doormat who didn't realize you could have boundaries between you and other people.
Alison, I read Flea's blog at work. Yeah, okay, I quickly scroll past the dildos and such, when they're up, but so what? Flea has every right to put them up on her own blog, and hell, sex toys are how she makes her living! It's Not About You.
I still tend to think being nice and optimistic in situations will make people like me more. Which only works some of the time. I should know better by now. Though I'm not sure it's a sentiment I want to lose entirely. But I wish there was more Christopher in me, to this day.
Loved this post!
Your post brought memories I had long since forgotten. While I began life as a Christopher I morphed into an Alex around the age of 10. I think my soul has a permanent "shovel mark" on it somewhere.
Please consider writing a book proposal. I would love to read a book filled with short stories about your life. As this post makes clear once again, you are an amazing writer.
Thank you for your willingness and openness.
Mychelline wrote:
"Alison, I read Flea's blog at work. Yeah, okay, I quickly scroll past the dildos and such, when they're up, but so what? Flea has every right to put them up on her own blog, and hell, sex toys are how she makes her living! It's Not About You."
In a comment thread about an essay on bullying, it seems worth it to mention that that last sentence seems like a bit of a nasty remark. What does that even mean, "Not About You"? Couldn't someone say the same to you regarding your using *your* comfort *with* the pictures as a reason they should be kept up?
Anyway. I love Flea's blog, but since the vibrator picture went up along the top, I am usually too nervous to read it at work. I support her right to put up anything she wants on the blog (I'll still read at home, of course), but I don't see anything wrong with someone pointing out that it limits readership for some people.
I got totally sidetracked -- I meant to say (also), beautiful essay, Flea. I was another one of those kids who would go along with anything just to get to play. And ignoring bullies doesn't work.
Really, I'm still lousy at standing up for myself, especially in real life. I'm likely to stand up for other people. But not me.
i so love your writing, lovely, lovely post thankyou... i only recently learned to stick up for myself, passed through my adolescent years without sticking up for myself once... i remember being about 13 & thinking that if i was nice to everyone i would be alright, and bizaarely it worked like a treat for years... but that shovel does come in one's face sooner or later... x
"Couldn't someone say the same to you regarding your using *your* comfort *with* the pictures as a reason they should be kept up?"
Not really, since she said she had to scroll past them quickly while she was at work. Perhaps Mychelline was expressing irritation because she realizes the vibrator and product photos did not start showing up on the blog until our family was completely and totally financially devastated. Perhaps she realizes that the vibrator photos on the blog are all that's left, and for people to complain about their "comfort levels" when coming here to be entertained (while knowing full well that the cute mommy stories are alternated with uncomfortable vibrator stories) might be somewhat hurtful to the person who continues to provide the entertainment for free?
To make things perfectly clear: If I take down the photos and refrain from mentioning product, I will have to get a full time McJob, and the blog is finished. I will not have time to work 40 hours at Starbucks and give Alex the care he needs and spend 4 hours writing posts like this one every day. Maybe other people can do it, but I can't.
I did not ask for, and am not interested in, "honest feedback" on this particular topic.
Glad you all liked the post.
Alison has a point. When you have children around you have to censor yourself. But please continue to keep posting the sex stuff. First, I don't like to see anyone compromising herself. And, second, yeah I selfishly love this blog. It's rare to find intelligent, funny, political writing that isn't PG-13. A woman needs a place to go where she can read and see everything and anything. Thanks for being that place for me.
I hope you're not talking about me, Flea, because I didn't complain about my comfort level. Love your blog, always have, and I never mentioned the vibrator photo before now *because* of the reasons you enumerate above.
I saw what looked like a snotty comment with lousy logic behind it, I said something about it. If it looks like my post was supposed to read as something else to you, please accept an apology. I never intended to dictate what goes on your blog. I hope you would know that.
I do know that, and I appreciate it. This is not a good time for me to respond to these "take down the photos" kinds of comments. I've been ignoring them, and probably should have continued to do so.
Leave them up! This world needs more vibrators!
"Rose Madder" is my favorite King book, too. (Although yes, I love the "Stand" with a singular passion.) I love the scene with Rose in Pooh's chair. Having been in an abusive relationship and gotten out of it (emotional abuse, not physical, thankfully), I can sort of understand what she went through rocking there. I periodically re-read that book just as a reminder to me of what can happen when you subsume your personality into someone else's.
Anyway - wonderful post, flea. Thank you for writing.
NJ said "A woman needs a place to go where she can read and see everything and anything. Thanks for being that place for me."
Hear Hear!!
It's nice to know that I have a place to visit that not only is informative, but doesn't pander to the XXX crap! (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) 
Regrettably I was not able to make it to your bricks and mortar store before you closed. So now I visit the clicks and mortar one instead! I'm currently digging my way out of the financial pit I'm in, but as soon as I get it together, I promise I will place an order!
From your postings about your products, as well as your honest, heartfelt answers to people's e-mails, I have learned so much about topics I would never have thought to ask about.
I enjoy reading everything on your blog, Flea. We have yet to meet IRL, but from where I sit, you are one helluva gal! I hope you don't let the crap get to you!
Thank you for your stories and for sharing your life with us.
"while knowing full well that the cute mommy stories are alternated with uncomfortable vibrator stories..."
Geez, I didn't think vibrators were supposed to be uncomfortable. Maybe they're not using them right. I certainly have not run into that problem in the nearly 20 years I've used one.
(Sorry, I couldn't help myself.)
J
P.S. I love "Rose Madder" too! Her transformation to independence and learning to trust is my favorite part. I love that after taking such horrid abuse for so long, she gets to have people in her life who appreciate her. And gets to kick a little ass down the road, too.
I don't know if anyone will see this at this late date, but I'd like to share a solution to reading this blog at work or around kids if it's an issue for you.
This is for Windows XP, Microsoft Internet Explorer. Before clicking on this site, click the "tools" button on your browser, click "internet options" click the "advanced" tab, uncheck the box marked "show photos", click "apply", and then refresh the browser. The photos don't show up then--just a placeholder. If you then wish to see a particular photo, right click on the placeholder, and click "show picture."
Just thought I'd offer a technical solution to what some find a problem.
The image of an irate little two year old in "rubber pants" was so sweet and sad and funny. Good for him. Excellent post.
I thought he wrote "Dolores Clairborne" ... ? That must count as an openly feminist heroine-driven story that got made into a movie. But perhaps I'm revealing my ignorance of all things Steven King.
Beautiful post. Beautiful vibrators too.
You wrote this forever ago, and I don't know if you've even kept up with the blog, but I wanted to congratulate you on this entry. It's incredible.
I'm like you and Alex. I'm learning to take the physical jumps, but the interpersonal shovels to the face I'm wtill inconsistent on. I know so very exactly what you mean though, about taking their treatment rather than admit to yourself that you don't really have friends. SO very exactly. I have never ever heard it expressed this way, or even close. So thanks.
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