"Europeans had decided to create a "Jewish camp" as the best means for ridding the continent of Jews."
That part is actually fairly accurate - not to legitimize the rest of his psyco-rant in any way. While it was not the intention of the Zionist who worked for it, some of the support for the project came from Europeans with these beliefs, particularly in France and (pre-Holocaust) Germany. Even after the Holocaust, many in Europe were not sure what to do with the survivors.
"Israel, now enjoyed support from the United States and Europe in the slaughter of Muslims."
Again, not to legitimize what he said, but this statement reflects the view of many in the Muslim world and must be taken seriously. They see images and read reports of Palestinians being killed by Israelis, which enrages them. Then they see how strongly we support Israel, and make the link. Our support of Israel and their subsequent human rights violations (real and/or perceived) is important in understanding anti-Americanism in the Middle East.
While much of what he says is contradictory and inflammatory, the bits and pieces of what many in the Muslim world consider to be "truth" give him some credibility, and make him all that more dangerous.
Your first point is well taken, however, in context of this nutjob's rant, I do not think he means it quite the same way.
He is dangerous for two reasons: 1) that people will believe him, and 2) no one knows how crazy the Ayatollah(s) is/are.
"They see images and read reports of Palestinians being killed by Israelis, which enrages them...Our support of Israel and their subsequent human rights violations (real and/or perceived) is important in understanding anti-Americanism in the Middle East."
As opposed to the Palestinians, who have killed absolutely no one and have a flawless record on human rights? You mean the same Palestinians who brought about movements such as Hamas and Hezbollah? You have to be f***in' kidding me.
Wow. You're so much worse than I thought, Mike. Not sure I can respect someone who can justify anti-Semitism in any way, shape, or form.
Just a note, the Bush policy- the "road map"- includes, ultimately, a Palestinian state alongside the State of Israel.
Mike: The Palestinians' fellow Arabs sure didn't seem to care much about them when the UN offered up that partition plan back in '48. Indeed, they quickly gobbled up the land that was set aside for the Palestinians' state!
Some "friends." Get real, dude!
Jess – how dare you imply that I’m an anti-Semite? Since when is anyone who is critical of anything Israel does an anti-Semite or is “justifying anti-Semitism”? People like you who take things out of context and hurl baseless accusations are the cause of much pain and violence. I resent it, I denounce it...you have personally attacked and offended me, and in doing so have shown your own lack of ability to have a real and meaningful dialogue about this complicated, sensitive, and controversial topic.
Israel isn't perfect - they have committed violence and violated human rights. Those are facts. That is the side the Arab world sees. That is the only side they see, which was the point I was making. Of course I'm aware of the horrible violence and terrorism perpetrated by Palestinians. Though I’m no expert, I've spent a couple years studying this, and am well aware that BOTH sides share the responsibility for the violence, as does the United States and Europe for their respective historical actions. The Road Map is a commendable and credible effort to resolve a century old dispute and overcome the mistakes of the past. I hope and pray for its success as I think most reasonable people do.
Hube – I’m sure this is just an oversight, but the Iranians aren’t Arabs – they are Persians. However, you’re right that the Palestinians have been exploited time and again by the other Arab countries, and it’s a shame. Instead of offering real help or taking in the refugees, they have used them as a propaganda tool against Israel and the west. Yet another tragic element to this larger story.
Ryan – I generally agree with you; the Ayatollahs kept the progressive president quiet, but they’re letting this whacko say whatever he wants. Very scary they’re trying to get nukes.
I didn't say you were an anti-Semite. Let me make it clearer: it is one thing to critique Israel. It is another to back up the claims of a Holocaust-denier like Ahmadinejad, who has also called for the elimination of Israel from the map. I felt you crossed the line, perhaps (hopefully, and I do assume this to be the case) inadvertantly. Perhaps I shouldn't have said you were "justifying anti-Semitism," but it certainly felt that way to me.
No, Israel isn't perfect (and I put it out there, what nation is?), and I wasn't arguing that they are. However, I feel it is far better to be a friend to them, as, frankly, the international community frequently fails to do much of anything in support of them. The UN Security Council couldn't even muster up a condemnation of a recent suicide bombing against them but seemingly bends over backwards to please Islamofascists, seeing as the reason said bombing was not condemned was because one nation- Algeria- didn't like that it was stated that the orders for the attack originated in Damascus. Perhaps I am over-sensitive, but there is seemingly a great deal of anti-Semitic/ anti-Israel sentiment in the international community, and I think it best not to spend time saying, "That nutjob Ahmadinejad sure is right, you know?"
"[Y[ou have personally attacked and offended me, and in doing so have shown your own lack of ability to have a real and meaningful dialogue about this complicated, sensitive, and controversial topic." Well, that's good, as you have a) offended me previously many times, and I'm sure always will in some regard, and b) your opinion of me matters incredibly little to me anyway. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the highest level of concern, I'd say you're at about a -500.
I think, on the whole, Anti-Semitism is a much bigger problem than anti-Islamism. Yes, the Arabs agree with Iran's nutjpob...but isn't that the problem? Should we try and help them co-exist? I hold Syria and the other surrounding Arab states at fault for the conditions in the Middle East as least as much as the Palistinians, who did reject the creation of their own state.
Mike, may I refer you to this:
http://protestwarrior.com/new_si...gns.php?
sign=22
Mike: it isn't just another sad element in the story, it is the primary reason the Palestinians are in the state (no pun intended) they're in. It isn't the Jews' fault they rejected the UN plan (and state). It isn't the Jews' fault they and their Arab brethren have -- and still -- wish to see Israel destroyed. It isn't the Jews' fault the Palestinians and surrounding Arab states got their asses kicked each and every time they did battle with Israel. Oh, wait -- that WAS the Jews' fault! 
The impression you're giving, Mike, intentionally or not, is one or moral equivalence between the Palestinians and Israelis. This is a grave error, in my view.
That is what I was trying to say, Hube. Unfortunately, I was too blunt in my statements, and that is equivalent to a "baseless accusation."
Mike- This is a much better way to say what I wanted to say. I do not think you were intentionally meaning to justify anti-Semitism, but I do think taking the words of someone like Ahmadinejad to back up certain claims is very irresponsible. For that reason, I do not think I said anything "baseless" or out of context, and certainly nothing I'm apologizing for.
The basis of Ahmadinejad's statements is anti-Semitism. Therefore, I find it highly offensive to give credibility to anything he says.
I also don't think I'm the cause of "much pain and violence." I think the likes of Ahmadinejad has caused far more of that than the likes of me ever will.
Aww, Jess, does that mean no invite to your wedding? I’m impressed that somehow, someway, you still managed to attack me even while clarifying and trying to back out of your previous attack. There is a huge difference between personally attacking someone and offending them because of political views – if I have indeed done the former, I apologize for it. I’ll never apologize for that latter. However, you attacked me, not my politics, without need, and that fact that you don't care only reflects poorly on your own sense of human decency. Apparently not everyone in your camp is a huge fan of "moral values."
Also, you're still completely ignoring what I wrote originally. I wasn't using what he said to back up any agenda of mine or supporting his statements in any way - I was only saying that like it or not, what he says has credibility in the Arab world because of preexisting notions, right or wrong. I never expressed support for him or his anti-Semitic views, which I in no way share. However, others take him seriously, including people in a nation we currently occupy (rebuild, whatever), and thus, we also must take him seriously. However, I do agree with Ryan that the fact they take him seriously is indeed the problem.
Hube - I don't know if I believe there is full "equivalency," but knowing the history, both sides have committed countless atrocities. For peace to progress, they need to move past the "scorecard" mentality of figuring out who is worse and look to the future and the fact that both peoples, like it or not, must learn to coexist peacefully. Otherwise, the cycle of violence can only continue.
OK, you personally attacked me now. Feel better? You're such an arrogant, self-righteous, hypocritical jerk. However, I take comfort knowing my sense of human decency and "moral values" doesn't include pointing to the words of anti-Semitic Holocaust-deniers in order to make a case for Palestine, but that's just me.
Still not apologizing. Or backing out of anything.
My point is that the root of Ahmadinejad's comments is anti-Semitism, and it is unwise- in EXTREMELY POOR judgment- to do so, as it also gives legitimacy to the sentiments behind the statements. It is offensive to me, knowing many Jewish people and Holocaust survivors (as well as considering converting to Judaism myself, believe it or not), to have someone say of anything that man says, "He is fairly accurate." Yes, he's fairly accurate, but you want to use what HE says to further any argument?!
And I said I didn't not believe you were anti-Semitic yourself, as well as point out that I realize you didn't intentionally mean to justify Ahmadinejad's own anti-Semitism, but even so, you showed incredibly bad judgment in giving credence to what he said at all. If you view this as an attack, sorry, but I'm just saying I wouldn't even quote him as saying the sky is blue.
I attacked your words, specifically statements made about me, not you directly. Ok, I was a smart-ass, but other than that...
You still, STILL are not reading what I actually wrote, either. I was not making an attempt to us "the words of anti-Semitic Holocaust-deniers in order to make a case for Palestine." My last paragraph, "While much of what he says is contradictory and inflammatory, the bits and pieces of what many in the Muslim world consider to be "truth" give him some credibility, and make him all that more dangerous" was the crux of my argument. I was really only saying that he should be taken seriously and somehow it blew up into this. The rest of what I said was merely historical background for those who may not be aware of the complexities of the situation. Ryan expressed outrage at some of what he said that was actually true. While I think he's a nutjob (Ahmadinejad, not Ryan), facts are facts - I'm sorry if you feel recognizing such facts means that I'm supporting the man who said them. That's simply not the case.
I stated that you showed an incredible lack of judgment, which is a far different thing than character, and you did personally attack me, by attacking my character. In fact, "character assissination" would come to mind. You were far more offensive than I've ever been, and I will not soon forget it. You are a complete jerk.
As for what I did/ didn't read. Just because I disagree, it does not mean I am not/ cannot read.
I think you are wrong to suggest that American support of Israel is the root cause of anti-Americanism among the Arab/ Persian/ Muslim world. 9/11, for example, was not about Israel; it was more about Western culture creeping into the Muslim world/ "military bases on holy land." And that anti-Americanism which is attributed to our support of Israel is ultimately rooted in anti-Semitism.
You've spoken of a "score card" mentality. I am not sure what you wish for Israel to do. They pulled out of Gaza. They were attacked anyway. Do they just keep being attacked and doing nothing about it? Last summer, a Frenchman first decried Israel for being in any Palestinian territory. In the next breath, he was expressing anger that they pulled out of some territory, and chaos set in. It seems that Israel is damned if they do, damned if they don't, and I think the world community is far from fair, far from right, with regards to Israel.
I would be more sympathetic to the Palestinian situation, did they not turn down every offer made them because they lack the ability to compromise. They were offered 95% of what they wanted, but they said no. That is a fact.
That is all I really care to say about it. I'm sure I "still, STILL" haven't read what you wrote, but unless I concede that you're right, you'll maintain that anyway. I frankly don't care.
You have offended me more than possibly anyone ever has, and I won't soon forget it.
"You have to be f***in' kidding me.
Wow. You're so much worse than I thought, Mike. Not sure I can respect someone who can justify anti-Semitism in any way, shape, or form." That was from your first post, so don't act all innocent, because it only got worse from there.
"On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the highest level of concern, I'd say you're at about a -500."
"You're such an arrogant, self-righteous, hypocritical jerk."
"You are a complete jerk."
Ok, NOW I'm being a jerk. lol. I'm sorry if I previously, horribly offended you. I have reread my posts, and don't see anything that bad, except for an occasional "holier-than-thou" tone (similar to the one I'm taking now...damn, there I go again). Perhaps things come across as too caustic or harsh online - I will admit that I was initially quite peeved by what appeared to be an accusation of anti-Semitism against me. From there, I probably went a little overboard, but that is an accusation I take very seriously and will do everything in my power to denounce.
The ultimate irony, of course, is that we don't really disagree that much about the issue. I may be a little more sympathetic to the Palestinians than you are, but I recognize that they have screwed up time and time again, and that Israel has every right to defend itself. I think we both also agree there needs to be a two state solution.
It is a shame when personal attacks detract from finding areas of compromise and agreement. Too often that is the way politics works anymore. No wonder so many people are sick of it.
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