Dear south:
That war is over; you lost. Get over it.
Your "flag" belongs in museums, not on your state flags or on your statehouses. Some of your people find it offensive, and though a minority, they are equal to you now in every way. Their opinions and feelings need to be respected. We, the rest of the country, invite you to join us in this lovely time called the 21st century. It is a great improvement over the 19th century in which you seem to be stuck. Studying and respecting history is important. Living in it is dangerous and backwards, especially when it is a divisive history.
....
Three cheers for Biden, a nationally recognized figure with every right to speak his mind, for joining the list of people who have spoken out against this.
Your "flag" belongs in museums, not on your state flags or on your statehouses. Some of your people find it offensive, and though a minority, they are equal to you now in every way. Their opinions and feelings need to be respected. We, the rest of the country, invite you to join us in this lovely time called the 21st century. It is a great improvement over the 19th century in which you seem to be stuck. Studying and respecting history is important. Living in it is dangerous and backwards, especially when it is a divisive history.
Would you feel the same way if Tony Blair said this about the US Flag?
We won. We became our own independent nation and did not have to enslave any English in the process. Besides the fact that history isn't usually written by the losers, there is much more at stake with the Confederate flag. The only people who have the right to say that in the United States are the Native Americans, but that's a whole other issue.
Mike, the point here is not whether or not South Carolina should fly the flag, but whether or not Biden has any authority to speak out about it, which he doesn't, because it is a state issue.
I'm curious, alot of the negativity toward the Confederate flag is because (as we are taught in school) the South wanted to have slaves and the North did not. I was told that this was not the only reason or the true reason the South wanted to secede.
Also is it true the Confederate flag stands-for a lot of people-for states rights? That's the reason my mother gave for thinking the flag appropriate (and I would agree with her on that) but coming from a hick town it does have other connotations which is why I am divided on it.
Hey Ryan you wouldn't happen to know anything about the secession of the South and care to explain would you? All I'm finding online is the slavery reason but I know I heard other reasons somewhere (probably from my mom).
Laura, let me take a step back from my own rhetoric for a minute to answer your very good questions. I have a degree in history, have taken classes on this time period, and will soon be teaching this subject to my classes.
The Confederate flag remains for many a symbol of the south and southern pride. It is and always has been a culturally unique part of our country. Some sport it for "state's rights," others as a symbol of southern pride, others because of its "rebel" connotations. However, since the KKK used it as a symbol in the 1920s and even into today and because, as you said, many associate it with racism and slavery (the way of life that in part led the south to develop as a unique region), many today do not feel it is appropriate for it to be flown over state buildings where all people's rights are to be respected equally. Many African Americans particularly find it offensive, and South Carolina has always had a very large African American population. Because of its divisiveness not only within the nation but within the diverse state, I perosonally feel that it should be taken down.
Hope that clears up your questions a little.
Ryan, Biden was only speaking as a national figure. He has no vote, but he has every right to speak his mind and encourage the people or those in government in South Carolina to make the responsible and respectful decision to take down the flag.
the KKK used it as a symbol in the 1920s
I think it is important to note that the Ku Klux Klan began as a social club in the 1860s, and were not explicitly white supremacist.
While slavery was a contributing factor, the overriding reason the South seceded was on the question of state's rights. This had been an issue that stretched as far back as Thomas Jefferson and James Medison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Kentucky_and_Virginia_Resolutions)
. Lincoln "settled" the issue of state's rights, giving the federal government absolute control over the states and that a state that had entered the Constitution could not leave the Union.
Freeing the slaves was a retcon of the war, in that it was not the original intent, and was mainly used by Lincoln to ensure that he had the support of the Republican Party throughout the war, the most unpopular in American history.
In fact, the Emancipation Proclamation and Lincoln freed exactly zero slaves. It was not until after the war that the 13th Amendment outlawed slavery across the United States.
In this regard, the flag of the Confederate States of America is a symbol of states rights, and freedom from tyranny. It has been used by white supremacists and pro-civil rights leaders as a symbol of slavery, but I do not think most people in the South view it as such.
I feel, therefore, that it is the business of the citizens of the state of South Carolina whether or not to fly the CSA flag above their state house.
good ole joe, dumb as a stump and in a hurry to prove it.
The secession occurred because of a fear of what Lincoln might possibly do. The issue was the federal government's right to limit the expansion of slavery into its territories. Lincoln opposed this, but said flat out he would not and could not interfere with slavery where it existed.
The Emancipation Proclamation freed slaves in areas in rebellion - he did this as commander in chief because that way he could justify it militarily. While it practically freed few slaves, symbolically and in the minds of many in the North, it made it a war against slavery.
Ryan is correct on the origins of the Klan, but by the 1920s they were the racist organization that they are today and were using the Confederate flag for that purpose.
This issue here is minority rights. South Carolina is ignoring the voice of its minority citizens. For the hundreds of blacks who were lynched and the thousands who were harassed under that flag, it is in no way a symbol of "freedom from tyranny".
This issue here is minority rights. South Carolina is ignoring the voice of its minority citizens.
I oppose paying taxes to fund the Department of Education, where's my minority right there? I'm being ignored! My people have a long history of receiving a sub-par education in the public system! Where are my rights?
And I oppose using my tax money to fight wars of choice and personal vendettas. However, we don't get to pick and choose where our tax dollars go. You digress WAY off topic here; the department of education never LYCHED you, held you in slavery (well, ok, some may think school is that bad, but its not), or intimidated you because of the color of your skin. If that flag offends a large minority (it does) and serves no practical purpose (it does not), it should be taken down. Once again...Dear South, the war is over. You lost. Get over it.
So we base how we treat minority populations based on their past experiences in this nation? That doesn't sound very equitable to me.
And it is still up to the people of South Carolina to deal with it.
I've never said it wasn't up to South Carolina to deal with it, I've only argued how I feel they SHOULD deal with it and that Biden has a right to say whatever he pleases.
Ryan, you continue to warp my arguments when really, I'm being pretty straight foward. For African-Americans and some others, there is an emotional connection to that flag and it isn't a good one. The state of South Carolina should be respectful enough to remove it because of the emotional past and divisiveness associated with it. No one would ever agrgue in favor of flying a Nazi flag over a state building in Germany because it represented German pride and a time of peak German power and influence or because of the swastika's association as a good luck charm.
"and that Biden has a right to say whatever he pleases. "
well ole joe has a right to paint his ass blue and bray at the moon... but it won't help get him elected.
haha, touche, though I don't think he necessarily needs the south to win the Democratic nomination. From a political standpoint, it was a clear attempt to try to woo African-American voters, though they'll be out of his camp anyway with Obama in the running. hmmm, maybe he should have marched in whistling dixie with a robe on...
Its not a state issue its an issue of national unity! One would claim that not participating in the pledge of the allegiance is unpatrotic, to fly a flag other then the American flag symbolizing unity on the same pole as the state flag is unpatrotic.
Interesting point - it was an attempt to split our nation and ruin the "great experiment" forever. Not something to be proud of in my book.
Maybe in time the flag will lose the connotations given to it (I'm thinking maybe in 100 yrs ^_^; ). I mean the flag doesn't create it's meaning people create it.
And after all you guys have said (and thank you all for the explanations) I don't look at the Confederate flag and see slavery or states rights. I see our past, our history.
But that's just me.
Well said, Laura. Well said.
Why is there still a British flag on the state flag of Hawaii? Clearly it's an symbol of White European colonialism and the enslavement of native peoples. Obama prepped at Punahou, maybe this is his next issue?
I agree Laura - that's why it belongs in museums, not on state houses.
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