rub it in why don't you!
hey cozamacoatle!
been looking at all the piccies this morning. very envy-making I must say. I need - not just want, it's a NEED - a baby turtle.
must. have. baby. turtle.
also, a temple of the sun. or the moon. I'm not fussy. my birthday's in December, as you know.
Great photo.
re: weird things. like those simple souls seeking life's answers from a benign sky god, you've been looking in the wrong place. You shoulda been looking in my lounge room. I will swap it for some pre-colombian loot.
How We Believe Trivia- it was oddly featured in an episode of Sex and the City. In the last season where Samantha gets breast cancer and she is at a clinic trying to get in to see this specialist and a Nun is also in the waiting room reading it.
Is it just me all does all this aztec talk remind you of that City of Gold cartoon that was on ABC Arvo show back in the day.
I am such a nerd I should be on *this* blog.
Coz,
Is this the City of the Gods that some guys reckon was full of water during 'the day'?
Oh, and can I borrow that book from you when you're done?
"Bird of night and bird of day will bow to the true City of Gold"
[Cue large gold bird that flies out of the temple]
Shut it, Mendoza. Man, who didn't like that cartoon?
Yeah, the God who is currently responsible for getting all my comments eaten is going to get the shit kicked out of him as soon as I find out where his temple is.
harry
I totally kicked that god's arse!
I have a nifty book called "The God Experiment" which dealt with similar ideas.
I'm pretty sure the conclusion was that it's a self defense mechanism of the brain to stop us freaking out everytime the sun rises and to prevent us going mad wondering if it will come back tomorrow.
harry 1
god 0
Amanda! You aren't suggesting that we are *gasp* NERDS?
Yes. I am.
Hazman- this place is about 50km outside of Mexico city. The Aztec's had no clue who built it and neither do we. Very mysterious. It took me a week to be able to say 'Teotihuacan' correctly, so be prepared for me to say it at very opportunity in random conversations.
The city on the island in middle of lake was 'Tenochtitlan', which i can't say properly. The ruins of that were around the corner of our hostel...very cool. Big stone carving of dismemebered godess Coatlicue.
"On arriving in Tenochtitlan, the Spaniards were deeply impressed by the beauty, order and cleanliness of this city with between 150,000 and 300,000 inhabitants, one of the biggest metropolises in the world at the time."
Then the Spanish drained the whole lake and now the city is sinking.
Don'tcha just love a conquering nation!
They didn't call them conquistadors for nothing, Megatron. They made empires the old-fashioned way back then.
... out of blood and bones.
Coincidentally, the book I bought to read on the same plane flight was Douglas Adams' Salmon of Doubt. In it he, a self-proclaimed evangelical atheist, curiously claims that there may be a useful place in the world for the things that made us believe in god in the first place, even though the belief itself was wrong. Essentially he points out that even though there isn't a god lots of people behave as if there were, and that allows all sorts of things to happen that wouldn't happen otherwise (suicide bombers, burning at the stake, the Spanish wiping out the Aztecs all leap to mind, but I might grudgingly admit to a few positive things as well, for the sake of Dougs point.) Hes saying that /some/ of those might be worth preserving, even if they were based on a fiction in the first place. Or to quote:
Therefore I would argue that though there isn't an actual God, there is an artificial God, and we should probably bear that in mind. That is my debating point, and you are now free to start hurling the chairs around.
The piece is called "Is There an Artificial God?" and its worth a read, as is most everything Adams ever wrote.
- ob.
PS This is the second time I've written this comment, so Harry, if you ever find that god's temple I want in on the Flaming Sword Party.
There should be a word for the feeling you get when you post a long and erudite post which elegantly expresses your amazing insights on life... and the computer eats it.
I shall call it anger.
There should also be a word for the feeling you get when you painstakingly reconstruct said post, not quite capturing its original glory but still essentially encapsulating your amazing insightful cleverness, and you save this one in a file until you're sure that the computer has got it but then delete the file because you've actually seen your post... and then you go back and the computer has eaten it again.
I believe I shall call this one fury.
Harry, when you get that god's licence plate number I want in on the Flaming Sword of Retribution Party - the rest of you will just have to take my word for the fact that I once wrote down something clever.
ob, you obviously aren't feeding your computer properly. I keep mine from nibbling on my posts by keeping a biscuit jar on my desk. They disappear at a steady rate.
Fyodor.. I agree, conquering nations these days so rarely indulge in a good annihilation these days. People are too soft.
This one - this one right here - I think I'll call embarassment.
Now the original post is back and you can all see that its cleverness was only borrowed from Douglas Adams, and I was only whining about having my stolen insights stolen...
Shhh... don't act scared; they can smell fear.
How embarassment.
I think the idea of an artificial God is a useful think. It is a very real thing, after all, so to make use of it makes sense. People will cal it other things other than 'God' such as Bushido, The Pirate Code, Being a gentleman, Honour etc
All inherently useful things, especially if you are a pirate; as Ob is.
This is a rather lame pragmatic argument. Because some people who believe in god(s) behave in a way we approve, belief is a good thing? All gods are artificial until proven otherwise, and belief is either a good thing in itself or it isn't.
Ethical systems, which you are driving at Harry, aren't the same as religious belief, unless they rely upon deistic assumptions. Unfortuantely, however, ethics and belief are often confused, usually by those who believe rather than behave.
Please see the Randy Newman song "Great Nations of Europe" re: conquering empires.
"The ability to believe is hardwired into us - therefore it cannot be bad or good per se, just it's products."
Says who? An idea can be good or bad in itself; it does not need to be acted upon to be judged good or bad.
"If the products are good then it's all ok."
...or possibly that people are OK with or without religion, i.e. it makes no difference to ethical behaviour.
"If they use the same part of the brain they are."
Do they? Why? I don't see why my belief or otherwise in Ahura Mazda should matter a damn to whether I think nicking my neighbour's goat is a * bad * thing.
"Besides, any ethical structures, eg Bushido, can completely dominate any religious beliefs."
So which is dominant, ethical or religious beliefs? How can belief be hardwired if it can be over-ridden by ethical thinking?
Adams' point was a little subtler than "belief is ok because believers behave", but I probably haven't expressed it well despite my earlier delusions of eloquence (the first draft was better, trust me... ;?)
He gives an example with feng shui. He claims that feng shui is based on some sort of belief that ancient invisible dragons live in your house, and will make you lucky or healthy, or rich if they are happy living in your house. (Put aside for the moment any question of wether or not this is an accurate description of the basis of feng shui - I certainly dont know or care, and Adams freely admits hes unclear on the details. Its not relevant.) His further claim is that feng shui on that basis alone could actually end up doing you some good; if you design a house that two tons of irate lizard can easily navigate without barking his shins, it will be open and inviting for the rest of us biologicals too. (Though in the movies theres always this big post for chaining princesses to next to the dragons cave. Coz, can we get a big post with chains? Feng shui says it will make us less hungry but eventually get us killed by a lousy actor in an alfoil hat...) This actual benefit is not, he says, pure chance but due to the evolution of beliefs; the guys who believed you had to make your house comfortable for giant squid all drowned years ago.
Now, even though we don't believe in giant invisible luck dragons, and even though we don't necessarily buy into all the obscure rules that some neo-pagan fairy wanker tries to sell us about having a pottery elephant on its side in the corner (now for just $19.95!) the original core of the belief can still be useful as a mental model for designing livable spaces. Make your spaces big enough for an imaginary dragon that you dont believe in, and you will be more comfortable.
The obvious examples are also the obvious caveats: dietary restrictions of various religions. Don't eat cows in India probably comes from not eating something that can supply more food eventually with continuous milk production, while at the same time acting as a source of farm labour. But you don't just preserve the rule without the belief because it is - or was once - useful, you look at why it was useful and come up with not "don't eat cows" but "make sure you don't run out of cows, no matter how hungry you get" which is a useful difference. And then, hopefully, you generalise it to "make sure you don't use up anything that is continuously useful when you're not using it" and then you keep chopping down trees but you also plant new ones so that your grandkids don't have to learn to breathe carbon dioxide.
- ob.
ob
I spent a few hours last night coming up with at least a dozen assortment of fabulously witty shit that were never posted. I'm with you on the angry and fury bit.
time for a bit of Cleansing Flame...
btw Manda you should be proud of being an independant blognurd! we've just got a hippie commune blog probably sans underpants...
...and is mucho fun...
btw I'm really enjoying the theological debate, but am in a terribly flippart mood and will just say something trite if I get involved... 
even though I've just worked out that my comment will appear before the comment in question:
yes ob, just so much po-mo!
"All gods are artificial until proven otherwise, and belief is either a good thing in itself or it isn't."
# Yes, all Gods are artificial. The existence of gods is irrelevant to whether we have the brain structures or not. The ability to believe is hardwired into us - therefore it cannot be bad or good per se, just it's products.
If the products are good then it's all ok.
"Ethical systems, which you are driving at Harry, aren't the same as religious belief"
# If they use the same part of the brain they are.
Besides, any ethical structures, eg Bushido, can completely dominate any religious beliefs.
The one to be concerned with is which ever is the one that dictates actual actions.
Looks the I jumped the gun there, Harry. I really should have waited for you to post before replying. Damn that freakish telepathy of mine.
Anti-ob, it's called ex-post rationalisation. The Feng Shui example is all about coming up with a mythology that accommodates human experience, not the reverse.
Most religions are like that: when faced with the inexplicable, humans come up with a plausible - albeit often fanciful and wildly incorrect - solution. Religion's like an intellectual place-holder for stuff we haven't figured out yet.
Hmmmmm where's that magic broom to clean up what Ob dropped... ah hah!
I've read abit more of "How We Believe" (have to do something at work)
He is talking about our brains and the 'Belief Engine' that is in all of us.
I probably won't explain this very well but here is the upshot so far.
According to a 1996 Gallup poll (lies, damn lies and statistics) 96% of American adults believe in God, 90% believe in heaven, 79% in miracles, 73% in hell, 72% in angels and 65% in the devil.
Humans are pattern seeking animals, we all do it. Yes even you. Thats why the Virgin Mary appears just a tad to often in tortillas to be deemed sensible. The woman needs a better travel agent.
Finding patterns helped us survive its just we are not very good at sorting out the meaningful from the Elvis face on my wet shower curtin.
He talks about a study done in 1918 on the Trobriand Islanders off New Guinea.
When fishing the further out to sea they went the more complex the superstitious rituals became. In calm, lagoon waters, very few rituals, deeper water much more magic. The anthropologist concluded that this belief system served the function of dealing with the anxiety produced by uncertainty. That magical thinking derieved from enviromental conditions, not inherent stupidities.
That to me makes alot of sense, but man, it seems that there still are alot of inherent stupid people out there.
"You understand that i am not doing this because i'm superstitious.I just want to avoid bad luck"
Gene Forman of the Philadelphia Inquirer
"So which is dominant, ethical or religious beliefs?"
# What is the difference? I 'beleive' in the concepts of Truth and Honesty, as if they were religious artifacts. There is nothing underpinning the central position of Truth in my ethical system apart from the inherent sense it makes.
I don't see how that is different to a religious beleif.
"How can belief be hardwired if it can be over-ridden by ethical thinking?"
# Well, if the belief system *is* ethical thinking. We're not hardwired to beleive in god, just to beleive in something - to set a mental foundation upon which to relate the world. As I recall the physical part of the brain in question deals with the irrational, and lets us cope with it. Kids aren't born with religion, they learn it. All religion is cultural, as are all ethical systems, but the belief that is hardwired is simply "an ability to believe" - I don't see how it can discern between a system that doesn't involve gods, and one that doesn't: since they are both learned.
"Religion's like an intellectual place-holder for stuff we haven't figured out yet."
# Well put.
...Or was that just so much po-mo bullshit?
ahahahahaHAH... and it was HARRY's po-mo bullshit, not ob's... sorry 'bout that.
cozamacoatl:
"this belief system served the function of dealing with the anxiety produced by uncertainty."
absolutely. god is just man's way of making sense of the world instead of freaking out - like Haz said, even just about the sun going up and coming down. in pre-scientific ages, I can understand the need completely.
god is also a handy way of making people do what you want, ie imposing a moral code and saying 'god will smite thee if you covet thy neighbour's ox'.
this is also a good way of making a civilsation function smoothly. if you have a decent working moral code, that is (although there are some pretty indecent ones out there too, but who am I to say). that's all the ten commandments are, and they're not bad as far as a set of rules to run your life by goes.
so what better way to make a community adhere to a set of rules, moral code, have it what you will, than to say that your deity of choice told you on a mountain top that you had to obey or go to hell?
'god will smite thee if you covet thy neighbour's ox'.
phew. I was starting to get worried about the forthcoming smiting, since my nighbour has such a fine arse.
oh ass, ox, what's the difference? it's ARSE over here luvvy
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