Carr successors?
Les Miles? Umm, no.
Cam Cameron? Umm, no.
Urban Meyer? Umm, no.
Mike DeBord? Umm ...
Don't DeBord me man! I just can't take it today!!!
What are the odds that Mike DeBord becoming HC means Scot Loeffler moves up to OC? That's a plan I can get behind.
Um...English?
Anybody but DeBord.
Please steal Les Miles. Please steal Les Miles. Please steal Les Miles. Please steal Les Miles. Please steal Les Miles. Please steal Les Miles.
How about... Tommy Amaker?
what is that? macguyver?
Larry Izzo is interested in the idea of coaching the Michigan football team in addition to the Michigan State basketball team.
It wouldn't exactly be stealing, doesn't Miles want to coach here?
Les Miles would be a good choice IMO, but he does have a $1.25M penalty for taking any job at the University of Michigan. http://images.usatoday.com/
sport...na_state_fb.pdf (see bottom of Page 10)
Les Miles is not the answer. Poor speaker, highly questionable coaching moves in several games (most notably the loss to Tennessee last year) and a nervy sideline persona that reminds me of Flip Saunders! He was lucky to get a plum job and he's still living off Saban's recruits.
The ONLY acceptable choice on the current staff is English, but that's far from a slam dunk. We will know a lot more about RE after the 2007 season. We would be a national laughing stock if we hired DeBord. Seriously, I would consider turning in my fan card. All our worst fears of Carr's coach coddling would be realized.
I would like to know why WolverBean (and some others) would be so excited about Loeffler becoming the OC. Just because he's young doesn't mean he's innovative. You have no idea what kind of coordinator he would be and, to tell you the truth, I'm not so sure this guy is much of a quarterbacks coach. The jury is certainly still out on that.
This comment is especially perplexing since he made it under the assumption that DeBord will be the head coach. If DeBord was anything like Carr as a head coach (and I imagine he would be EXACTLY the same), it's not as if Loeffler or any other official OC would have the autonomay to really change things. Carr has changed offensive coordinators four times in his tenure and there was never a dramatic difference.
Everyone knows Dan Reidel went to Dartmouth. Don't remember where Casey McCall went, though.
I don't think it's reasonable to say that the jury's still out on Loefler as a QB coach, he's been highly praised by everyone in the know.
Also, typically a QB coach taking over the playcalling leads to opening up the offense. I agree that DeBord may rein things in (similar to Carr), but I second the vote of confidence for Loefler as OC.
I'd also be THRILLED with Miles as head coach, there's no way to not be impressed by what he's done with LSU the last couple years (both on the field and in recruiting).
Just wondering - I don't know the answer to this. Was Tressel a hot coaching commodity when OSU hired him in '01? I know he'd had a lot of success in DII, but were a lot of teams interested? I ask because it seems to me that we're trying to determine Carr's successor by only thinking of guys at big name programs that we've already heard of. I'm hoping the Athletic Department takes the time to look at all potential options to find the next Tressel, and not just guys who 1) we've already heard of because he's at a big-time program and 2) went to Michigan.
I think there will be a huge fan uprising if Debord is seriously talked about as a successor. No way that Martin ignores it and hires him anyway.
Pete Carroll!!
If/When Carr does retire, I would want either English or Miles to be the coach. But preferably English because he might work on getting better defensive players, which has been the problem against OSU the last 3 years.
One thing's for certain, if Carr does leave, they can't make a mistake in the next hire. If Martin's man-love for Amaker is any indication, being hired as coach at Michigan is like being named to the Supreme Court. Unless, of course, you get drunk in Southfield.
If anyone mentions Steve Mariucci, do me a favor and mace him, will ya? Thanks.
Question and a comment:
1.) Who is Eli Zaret? What was this pre-OSU golf outing event of which you speak?
2.) My recollection of Tressel was that he was well regarded, but it's not like you could call him hot commodity. As a matter of fact, living in Columbus I had **plenty** of Buckeye doubter friends who were quite disappointed in OSU hiring him. Thought that DI-AA, or whatever Y'town St. is, success does not necessarily translate to D-1A success.
I recall when Mike Bellotti was in town. Nightly news had him getting off the plane, etc. Much excitement, and anxiety over the whole process.
I can tell you that going through the same process OSU went through in '01 is not something I'm looking forward to at all... even with my current state of frustration for some of Carr's... frustrating elements. I don't like turnover.
Go Blue!
Get Petrino! Aww, damn. Too late.
Les Miles living off Saban's recruits? What? Don't look now, but after he signs McKnight and that other LA five star, he'll have the number one class.
Zaret's a local sportscaster type.
IIRC, Tressel was about plan E for OSU and wasn't an exciting hire for their fanbase. Coming from I-AA YSU will do that.
And yes, that's the MacGuyver theme song. Like... duh.
Yeah, that's MacGyver. That's funny.
Anyway, I wouldn't mind seeing Miles take over. Not one bit. I wouldn't complain about English, either.
But here's my question: would Martin want to promote from within, or would he be more inclined to hire from outside?
[flaming]
Navarre and Henne both have/had shaky throwing mechanics with low releases. They both have substandard footwork. Neither of these things ever made/have made significant improvements.
Henne, despite having respectable footspeed for a QB, NEVER looks to run just as the much slower Navarre didn't. Neither "feel comfortable" in the shotgun despite looking just fine during the rare times they were asked to do it. I'm sure many of these things are the byproduct of the position coach. Color me less than impressed with Mr. Loeffler.
Again, get ready to riot if DeBord is named the coach. One of the most coveted jobs in college football settling for a guy with a terrible record in his one job at CMU. Think about how bad that would look.
[flaming]
Just wondering - I don't know the answer to this. Was Tressel a hot coaching commodity when OSU hired him in '01? I know he'd had a lot of success in DII, but were a lot of teams interested? I ask because it seems to me that we're trying to determine Carr's successor by only thinking of guys at big name programs that we've already heard of. I'm hoping the Athletic Department takes the time to look at all potential options to find the next Tressel, and not just guys who 1) we've already heard of because he's at a big-time program and 2) went to Michigan.
Gnarls Woodson | 01.26.07 - 3:55 pm | #
You're dead on. Miles is not the answer at all. He's a Lloydball clone. Ask LSU fans what they think of him. We need to scour every level of competition for no-name, but exceptional coaching talent.
I thought I heard/read somewhere that Miles is person non grata in AA now. Rumblings of him campaigning for the job when Moeller was fired, and then negatively recruiting against Lloyd later. Maybe I'm wrong. But I've heard from a few people that Les Miles won't be the head coach at Michigan, ever.
What about Harbaugh if he has a bang-up year at Stanford (unlikely, I know)?
Or Mike Trgovac?
The Boise State coach?
Ok I'm going to switch topics to the Martin 4 and putting Michigan basketball where it is now....I am so tired of hearing this. It's Michigan that put it's bball program where it is. Clearly Martin was giving money to Detroit BBall players (yes eventually that included non Detroit players that were at Michigan) and when they got the plea deal with the feds it should have been testimony about money he gave to all amateur athletes not simply M ones. Had this happened a bunch of schools would have been included in the scandal and the NCAA would have been left deciding if they hammer them all, or let them all go lightly. If M had been more pro-active in this manner we would have a totally different bball landscape right now.
I expect that DeBoerd or English will be the next M coach with Harbaugh given strong consideration.
One cannot look to the moribund basketball program for comparisons. At the time of the Amaker hiring, Michigan man Ellerbee was in way over his head. Amaker was an "it girl" at Seton Hall, and it was considered to be an "exciting" hiring at the time. He was a Coach K disciple who brought great recruits to the Hall. That he can't coach X an O's has become painfully clear, but he is a decent recruiter.
Football is more arrogant. The program believes that the program sustains its own success regardless of who is at the helm. The program values Michigan tradition and Michgan men, and thinks that will not sink the winning ship. Times have passed M by a little, but there is something to be said for a coach who is not looking for a stepping stone to the NFL and is at M because that is their dream job.
Hire Macguyver for football coach! He'd have players turning their shoelaces and a gatorade bottle into home-made bombs with which they can pummel OSU!
I'm with BRCE on this one - I'm not convinced that Loeffler is the wunderkid everyone has made him out to be. IMO, Henne is a good QB, not a great one, and considering his 5- star rating coming in, he arguably should be at Matt Leinert level by now. As for Navarre, he was a great QB as a senior, average as a junior, and not good as a sophomore.
Loeffler gets the wunderkid label because he was a grad ass when Brady was here. Sorry - but Tom Brady, Stan Parish, Bill Belicheck, Charlie Weis made Tom Brady, not Loeffler.
The dude who says Henne's arm mechanics are off is wrong. Sometimes his footwork causes his passes to sail, but the only reason he's had passes batted is because Rueben Riley's been on the line for the last two years. Navarre was a DE who wasn't ever supposed to see the field and he became pretty damn respectable thanks to Loeffler. That simple fact should make you respect Scot.
Aaanndd, by the end of 2007, we should conduct a huge search for both basketball and football coaches. Basketball should be Bennett and football should be an innovative young guy who can jump start the program and stay at Michigan for 20 years.
There's nobody on the current staff who should merit serious consideration for the head coaching spot when Lloyd retires. Michigan should not be a training position for anybody learning to be a head coach for the first time, nor should it be for someone who failed miserably at his only head coaching gig at a mid-major with a pretty decent football tradition.
That means that English and Loeffler, regardless of their promise, should cut their head coaching teeth elsewhere first, and that Debord should get his second chance at some other school. Yeah, I know that Lloyd had never been a head coach at the collegiate level before he took over, but I think we've been pretty lucky it turned out as well as it has.
But all this brings up a larger question: isn't there a value in looking completely outside the UM coaching family? Every time I read or hear some UM fan say that we should only hire "a Michigan Man," I wonder if he's really paying attention to UM coaching history.
Fielding Yost? Fritz Crisler? Bo Schembechler? Not one of these guys had the slightest connection, either as a player or as coach, to UM before he came to Ann Arbor, and Crisler and Schembechler reinvigorated programs that had essentially languished under former UM heroes and Michigan Men Kipke and Elliott.
Football programs periodically need infusions of fresh blood. The attitude that if it's "not invented here" it's not worth considering can be death in the business world, and I think it's also true for coaching. A great way to become ossified and obsolescent is to rely primarily on your own family lineage for leadership. Look at Ford Motor Company or a whole range of royal families in Europe where marrying cousins has worked so well.
So, who are the D-1 guys out there with no Michigan connections who've proven themselves as head coaches with integrity (whether in BCS conferences or not), who have good track records as recruiters, and who've established that they can successfully coach in big games against strong opponents?
A Matt Leinart level? You expect our QB coach to develop everyone he runs across into a Heisman winner surrounded by Reggie Bush, et al? If you want to spin the Navarre era as some sort of black mark on Loeffler's resume, you can, but he turned a lumbering 6'6" guy who was recruited as a QB by only Northwestern and turned him into an All Big Ten NFL backup. QBs look bad when they're young. They just do, and Loeffler's had to deal with starting underclassmen for three of his years as QB coach. Other years? Brady, Henson, Average Navarre and Good Navarre, and Good Henne.
Galactically stupid? No, Meechigan Dan, that would be a phrase to describe your political opinions. Nice to see you have removed the link to that piece of shit website of yours.
My point is that I don't put a lot of stock into Miles' record at LSU because a ton of coaches could have walked into that situation and put up the same record if not better. I don't totally brush it off, but it's certainly noteworthy that he didn't bring anything to LSU that they didn't have in the immediate past. It's also noteworthy that he was afforded two VERY highly-regarded coordinators to work with in Baton Rouge.
LSU fans aren't particularly enamored with Miles and I can see why. They don't think he looks or sounds like a head coach, which I agree with. They believe he is slow to make in-game adjustments, which I agree with. They believe he is too conservative at the end of close games, which I totally agree with.
Les Miles is living a charmed life and I don't think people should get so excited about him just because he didn't do what only a total idiot could have done the past two years: screw things up for the powerhouse that Saban had built.
I think Brian is off on Loeffler's career. He has been here five years. Only in two of those seasons has he coached an underclassman (Henne's first two years). He never worked with Brady or Henson since he became the QB coach.
I don't echo the Leinart comment, but Henne isn't just another QB with three years in the system. He has started EVERY game in those three years. He should have reached a higher level than he has heading into his senior season.
I'm with Brian on Loefler, I still think what he did with Navarre was amazing, and the success that the other QB's have had speaks for itself, IMO.
And I'm not saying that Miles is necessarily the answer, but I think he's certainly worth consideration. Finding a guy who DOESN'T look at the job as a stepping stone to the NFL truly is important, and how many other up-and-comers would be ready for the pressure of U of M football?
I've heard it said that any idiot could win at Michigan, and if they hire Mike DeBord, I guess we'll find out.
Michigan would rightly be a laughingstock if they made that move...hiring a coach no other school in the country would ever interview after a ridiculously bad stint at CMU.
I don't like any of the "Michigan Man" candidates to be honest. Fresh ideas please..it's way past time.
Cam Cameron? Don't think Cam Cameron succeeds at Miami with no LT.
With Ron English as DC. DeBord gets relegated to special teams.
Mike DeBord was a failure at Central Michigan. Look where it is with Brian Kelly at the helm. Please no. Please. No cronyism.
Coordinators may not fit well as head-coaches because they are generally good at X's and O's and may not be good leaders/motivators. I think DeBord is neither.
His USC post game comments "I still wouldn't change the gameplan" still makes me sick. WHy don't you give max-protect to Henne and ask our all-star WRs and Henne to make plays instead of making Hart run against their impossible to penetrate line/linebacking corps.
USC's Lane Kiffin and Sarkisian's "We wouldn't run anymore" comments made us look like fools. The Michigan way was not working. Be flexible!
Anyone who thinks the jury is still out on Loefler needs to watch a Navarre game his freshman year and any game his senior year
By Cameron succeeding, I meant a deep run in playoffs. With the ridiculous AFC strength of schedule, that might not be possible.
If a Michigan job is open, Cam might be a great fit since he already coached Indiana for several years. And since I think it's one of the more coveted jobs, he might be interested. He's young ( 45.. I guess) and might take the program to next level. ( OSU wins and Bowl wins)
Apparently I'm missing something on Henne, cause I thought he had a good season. He certainly isn't the reason we lost to OSU or USC and he had to make do without Manningham for several weeks and with Arrington playing his way back into form. He's better than he was as a soph and it's absurd to expect many QBs to turn into Leinart regardless of the number of stars recruiting analysts gave them.
Paul Johnson, Head Coach at Navy:
In the two seasons before Johnson came, Navy had a record of 1-20. After his first season in Annapolis, Navy has gone 35-15 with four bowl appearances in four seasons. That’s coaching!
Before Navy, he led Georgia Southern where he was 62-10 in five seasons with two 1-AA National Championships. He even beat Tressel at Youngstown State.
He's innovative, and knows how to get the most out of his talent. He would need to learn to recruit at a bigtime program, but we could hire someone to help and Lloyd could help in his new role.
I'm not sure about Paul Johnson. Not to say that he couldn't be successful, but he's been at lower-tier jobs and (I think) has always run the triple-option. It's hard to say if he would be able to make the necessary adjustments to Big 10 play. If he put the right coordinators in place though, I could see that working.
If we're looking for someone along those lines, how about Brian Kelly? I'm not sure anyone is jumping through the coaching ranks as quickly, and his offensive schemes would be a breath of fresh air.
Small point: Henne does not get many passes batted down - no more than our opponents' QBs do. We're just hypersensitive to it when it happens, after Navarre (who really *did* get a lot batted down).
I'm amazed at anyone questioning Loeffler's record. He may or may not be great at playcalling, but he is a borderline great QB coach. Having said that, it'll be a sad day when he replaces Debord as OC ..
.. if that means Debord is the new HC.
Get Tedford!
"hideously awful"?
Your generosity is making me blush, B.
Liam wrote:
"Anyone who thinks the jury is still out on Loefler needs to watch a Navarre game his freshman year and any game his senior year"
That may have had something to do with Navarre being, you know, a freshman and then being, you know, a senior. With the most snaps in the history of Michigan football coming in between. You Loeffler fanatics are funny. Most overrated coach ever.
It may also have had something to do with good coaching.
Just out of curiousity, what is it that makes you think that he's not a good QB coach? IMO, Navarre and Henne both improved dramatically through their careers, and I think the fact that Loefler's reached the position he's in at such a young age - and had success - should tell you something.
BRCE,
Loeffler may not be all world but you can't cite Navarre for a failing. Navarre's transformation (true, maybe not all due to Loeffler) was remarkable. And I think Henne has turned into a very good QB. The most you could claim is that there is not enough evidence.
I would have to say that I hope we could get Brian Kelly. He built GVSU into a D2 powerhouse and turned CMU around in only a couple years (playing largely his young recruits). Regardless of how he does for one year at Cincy (not his recruits, change of system), I think he merits strong consideration.
Another possibility would be the head coach at Montana, a guy whose name escapes me at the moment. While it is 1-AA he does run what is basically a pro-style set so it would easily be adaptable to D1, plus he has proven he can sustain winning over multiple seasons with the consistent regular season and playoff success he has had at Montana
In evaluating Loeffler (or even a potential Head coach), don't you also need to factor recruiting in there? I don't think Henne, Guiterrez, Richards & Mallett all came to Michigan because of the helmet.
I like Brian Kelly as a candidate because he made programs better. Grand Valley continues to win in part because of the attitude Brian Kelly developed there. My opinion is that Cinci upgraded by losing Dantonio and hiring Kelly.
http://gobearcats.cstv.com/
sport...ly_brian00.html
That's a great point, MC. If you remember in the Penn State game, ABC interviewed Henne's dad in the stands and he made a comment along the lines of "Scott Loefler is the best QB coach in the country." Regardless of whether or not you agree that Loefler is a great QB coach, that shows how he's looked at by these young guys, and I'm sure that's had an impact in recruiting Henne, Gutierrez, Richard, and Mallett, who were all ranked in the top 10 QB's nationally.
michigan.scout.com has a "noon update" on Rojo's visit to Florida. Anyone have access to the site? - cause I don't.
Out of curiosity, is there anyone here who WOULD be satisfied with DeBord as head coach, which seems to be the most likely scenario?
If U of M decides that Miles buyout is too much or that he's just not the guy, and with Cameron taking over the Dolphins, there aren't a lot of other Michigan men out there. That would pretty much leave the options as hiring from within or bringing in someone with no connections.
Brian Kelly would be a great (and interesting) choice, but I wonder if DeBord might be a better head coach than he is an O-coordinator. He's been in charge of the offense, and before that handled recruiting and special teams, so he's clearly gotten experience in all aspects of the game. And I don't think saying that he couldn't succeed at Central necessarily bears any relevance to his potentially coaching at Michigan. This isn't a vote of confidence for him, I'm just saying that I think people are assuming that because he runs a boring offense, he wouldn't be a good head coach, and I don't think that necessarily holds true.
What do you guys think?
have to comment on basketball game.
they are getting no penetration and draining every three. and the solution is to switch to a zone? unreal
Tommy Amaker makes me want to kill myself.
Courtney Sims is pretty great at basketball, huh?
No DeBord... please...I will riot!!!
steve, nothing is working for hoops today...when they went man to man DJ killed them with a curl around to the paint for an easy 2. I lost alot of respect for Jay Billas when he picked M to win this game.
the jury's still out on Leoffler: the single most laughable comment i've heard here in 4 months. he's their single best recruiter, and the QBs at michigan have been very good. given Navarre's talent level, the staff including Lefty did a great job with him. every recruit he goes after cites lefty as a main reason they come here. within coaaching circles, he's regarded as one of a handfull of outstanding QB coaches. Henne was simply outstanding this year. 5* + 25 games of experience != heisman. i seem to remember brian saying something like "throws lasers with eyes." that said, I'm not sold on him as a sure thing at OC, for the same reason i'm not sold on MDB being a sure bust as HC at M....i just don't know how to translate their current work into a prediction about another coaching position. I will say that from a rectruiting standpoint, lefty would be a loss if he leaves. putting him at OC would probably be a good move. look, Weiss was the 5th choice at ND, Tressel the 5th choice at OSU. who could have predicted OSUs success under a I-AA coach? ND could have hired sly stallone and they would have been praised for it. based on the anti-miles talk, i'm betting the next coach will be someone off the radar. the CMU guy (kelley)...he could be OK. but do we really need a guy that builds programs? do we need a guy who has only needed talent from the state of Mich? my point is, we may need a guy that knows ohio and can get guys from there (that's why i think Dantonio is a pretty good hire at MSU). Frank Solitch got a raw deal at NEB.
also steve, i think they went to a 3-2 zone. not the 2-3 that leaves the wing vulenarble to teh 3.
RoJo: just wait till next sunday we'll know then.
so, tim and others: since the hoops game is (hopefully) over, as semi-regular followers of hoops, do you see put teams failures on TAs recruiting or in game/season coaching? i just think his failures at M (i don't know/care about the hall) are based on inherent issues in the program that force him to work from a deficiet (sp). mostly wrt recruiting, especially a true PG and high quality (not quantity) big men. i agree that the 18 TOs a game for 5 straight years are terrible. but that's in part due to lack of a true PG. I agree that the offense struggles at maddening times. that's in part due to lack of a true PG AND a high quality big man. basically, most people see a A- recruiter and D- in season coach. I see a B- level recruiter and a C+ in season coach. either way, you still get 'meh' -which is not working.
LOL @ Tim. You know what's even funnier? People who think Amaker should be retained. Dear God.
Dan,
Dion Harris, Courtney Sims, and Brent Petway have all not improved in their 4 years at Michigan. Lester Abram has regressed very noticeably in his 5 years.
For someone who's an alleged godly recruiter, where are the results (aside from the upcoming class)? He has no clue what he's doing during games, and doesn't tailor his offensive gameplan to the skill sets of his players.
In all honesty, I can't think of anything that TA does well except 1) Be a minority, 2) Run a clean program.
Would you honestly want to replace TA after this year considering next years recruiting class? Thoughts?
In all honesty, I can't think of anything that TA does well except 1) Be a minority, 2) Run a clean program.
*************************************
What does being a "Good Minority" have anything to do with Michigan sucking Jenna Jameson on the court??????? Way to stay classy Michigan......
I'm pretty sure I'm dumber for having read both Tim and Righteous' comments above.
You can rip on my post all you want, but that definitely earns him points both in the media, and with recruits.
BRCE:
I will try and explain, using crayons, one more time why your opening observation was moronic.
BRCE: 1+1=3
MDan: Ah, dude, it's 1+1=2
BRCE: Man, there are a lot of stupid people on this thread.
Do you see how ya look, BRCE? The first statement (untrue and generally revealing of someone who has repeated grades in the past) makes your second statement not credible. Now, everyone here being nice, we would have let you flail around on the topic with a few "attaboys" and some indulgent pats on the head. But then you had to go to the "everyone else is an idiot" card and so pointing out your handicap became fair game.
To state that "he's still living off Saban's recruits" means two things: Saban was a good recruiter and Les Miles is not. He has to "live off" of Saban's efforts because his own efforts do not supply enough athletic nutrients to "live off" of. Yet, Les Miles had a 7th ranked recruiting class last year and will likely finish first this year if he keeps the LA talent visiting right this very moment. So your statement is false. Since every coach has to "live off" of the recruits of the previous coach until his class matures, the only valid reason for making that observation about a relatively new coach is because recruiting is in decline.
Now, your later points about Miles may be valid. I am not a Miles fan myself, but I can't fault his recruiting, including taking a stud out of Detroit this year. But that's not relevant. You took the debate in a silly direction and then, when called on it, you acted like a dick.
Your lesson: Don't throw stones at the guy in the window. It's a mirror.
1)good god, who gives a shit that he's black.
2)anon, that was partly my point. even if we lose TA tomorrow, that doesn't fix the fact that we have a) No PG and b) DO have C Sims. john wooden couldn't turn Harris into a PG and make Sims into...what's the phrease i'm looking for....a good player.
if TA goes, will we keep legion et al to their LOIs? and will that hurt our chances of a good 08 class? those are legit concerns. and i kind of feel that the "player development" issue is a red-herring type thing because i don't think that's his main problem. Dion hasn't lived up to his ability because he's been forced into the PG role for half his career. petway just doesn't have an offensive game. period. but he has improved, albeit *slightly.* Sims just isn't a great threat at this level when teams focus on taking him away via double teams and pushing him off the block. he can't find the open man quickly and he's a terrible passer. the guys we have are what they are: one dimensional players with moderate to good ablility at this level. again, i agree that they haven't developed as much as I'd like. I'm just saying maybe they don't have as high a ceiling as we thought. and there are other issue besides player development.
imo, TAs major failing on the court (ie, indep of recruiting) was last year. if they didn't make it last year, why expect anything more this year? honestly, aside from the NC St game, the season's going as I would have thought: 10-6 is their max potential in the B10, and that's a stretch.
my hypothesis: TA hasn't been able to recruit very well his 1st 5 years. A significant part of the recruiting failures are beyond his control: facilities, past connection to nba players, and crowd atmosphere are examples. yes, TA has not shown he can win with the level of talent he has gotten to come to M. he's clearly not the solution, so why have him there? My worry is this: if I'm correct about talent being more of an issue than player development and that the lack of talent is in large part due to the program and not TA, then what "OMG shirtless" coaches are available that either a) CAN win with this level talent and/or develop these players more effectively or b)get a whole lot more talent here with the issues in the program? and do it squeeky clean? i gues my point boils down to this: even if TA leaves, the PG problem, the overall talent problem and the issues with the program don't go with him.
" Would you honestly want to replace TA after this year considering next years recruiting class? Thoughts?"
Yes, yes and YES. No recruiting class - even a Fab-Five caliber one (which this one is not) is more important than a coach. Amaker has proven time and again that he is not that good. He is in his 10th year as a major-college coach and has one (ONE!) NCAA tournament appearance. It's just mind-boggling to me that people can continue to believe in this guy. Sorry, he's just not that good, and given that he has 10 years' experience, what you see at this point is what you'll get. He's not a young coach anymore.
Dan, with all due respect, you seem to be fishing for reasons to defend Amaker even when you criticize him. I'm floored that you wouldn't think player development is a problem with him. Dion Harris, Courtney Sims and Lester Abram were all national top-50 recruits, and Brent Petway was top-75. Unless all these guys were horribly overrated, Amaker's done an awful job of developing them, since none is considered even a remote NBA prospect.
carc, i hear you man. i really do. i'm not saying player development is not an issue. just that it's not the only issue. and that, to be brutally honest, some, only some, of the issues aren't because of TA and aren't leaving with TA. look at Brian's summary of the team from Feb 6th-ish of 06:
05-06: peak in talent, experience, and depth. total dissaster. no excuses. grade: D-
04-05: that was the injury/horton suspension year. just like 05 football wrt injuries. walk ons all over the court. grade: Inc-injuries
03-04: NIT champs with youngest team in B10. i recall the (not so mild) excitement of that run in the NIT. grade: B+ given youth of team
02-03: tourney team, but post season ban in effect. grade: B-B+?
01-02: yeesh...talent nonexistent. grade: Pass: 1st year gets P/F grade system.
this years grade? well, we still have a shot at the tourney (i'm not holding my breath tho). so far: C to C- ?? no tourney gets a D. i'm just saying that 1/10 making the tourney record ignores that he rebuilt the SH program (to some extent, again i don't know/care about the hall). and rebuilt the M program from complete dissaster. imo, of the 5 years he's been at M, i give him a total failure for 1: last year.
Remember, TA's wife is the associate dean of students. Definitely makes it a little tougher to dump him, or at least complicates things.
Do you mean unverified veracity
also, being or not being an NBA prospect doesn't mean much these days. anyone who thinks they are almost ready to maybe be draftable declares early anyway. I never thought petway/sims/abrahm had nba skills or potential. i can't say if they were overrated then or underdeveloped since. probably a little of both.
but look, we essentially agree: tommy should go barring a remarable turnaround and 08RC. we just arrive at the end via different routes. and don't take my arguements as "I heart tommy." I'm not apologising or shilling or making excuses for him because i like his turtlenecks or some crap. i'm just trying to look beyond the surface a little.
i'm willing to concede that player development is an issue. and coaching guys to not turn the ball over 18 times a game for the last 5 friggin years. i'll say you're obviously in the majority. and I could be wrong. it's been known to happen. but, are you (or anyone?) willing to concede that:
a)Dion (and horton to a lesser extent) does not belong at the point. in other words, we haven't had *one* guy in the last 5 years that can perform at a high level at PG. and given (a),
b)this lack of a PG can lead to some if not much of the general offensive issues AND Dions lack of development.
and
c) the lack of a PG (and lack of general talent-especially in the Colemans and Smith classes)is due *partially* to the problems of the program not under TAs control.
I'm just not sold on the idea that practally any coach with a decent resume could come in and -bam- we're in the tourney 3 out of every 4 years. hey look, if you're right and 99% of the problem is TAs player development/offensive skeme/on court crappienss, then hey- he SHOULD be gone -YESTERDAY. but if I'm (partially) right, then *perhaps* finding a new coach that can succeed immeadiately and overwhelmingly more than TA has will not be a given. thanks for your opinions.
Tommy Amaker is the worst coach in the country. He does nothing well related to teaching/coaching the game of basketball. Nothing.
He'll probably be back though, as long as the program stays clean off the court. That's all Martin apparently cares about, because there's zero progress being shown on the court.
"Remember, TA's wife is the associate dean of students. Definitely makes it a little tougher to dump him, or at least complicates things."
Well, if she's doing a good job, she can stay ; ). Seriously, I don't think it should matter - if he's not getting it done, he's not getting it done.
side notes: unless Brian Ellerbe has had an untimely passing, TA is no worse than the 2nd worst coach in the country. how soon we all forget. also, at the time of TAs hiring, a clean program was all anyone cared about- at least for starters. now all of a sudden, everyone belittles the "clean program" issue.
****again, i think TA should go too (barring an ISTourneyRun and really good 08RC).******
but after teh Martin crap that lasted from 1991-1999, J Crawford, Avery Queen, Josh Moore and just about anyone BE got to play here-- I just think it's a little ironic that so many Michigan fans now "poo-poo" the work it takes and the importance of having a clean program in basketball. how many are smiling on the inside about USC/R Bush? or looking at Ill football with a bit of an "Ok---i know what's going on down there now" roll of the eyes?
I think it's unfair to lump Crawford into the "bad apple" group. The NCAA screwed him over good, and I have to think part of it was the NCAA being vindictive for not being able to get Michigan for any of the Martin stuff (at the time). Unless I'm forgetting something, Jamal was never arrested or did anything except bring a car to campus that the guy he was living with paid for. And when he couldn't or wouldn't pay for the car himself, he had to leave.
Dan,
I would have to respectfully disagree with you. I think part of the excitement the fans felt when M hired Amaker was that he would run a clean program AND take M back to being a yearly NCAA tourney participant. I think it was a forgone conclusion that Martin was going to hire someone who ran a clean program, so getting Amaker, an up and coming coach, was a bonus.
I don't think anyone is forgetting that running a clean program is important...I think people are frustrated because they felt Amaker could run a clean program AND make M a winning program again, something he hasn't done.
Shifting back to football for a minute, I'd like to respond to BCRE's original question.
My primary reason for supporting Loeffler for OC is based on what I've seen from him in the OC role. Anyone remember the home game against Indiana (was it 1 year ago or 3?) when they let Loeffler call the plays in the 2nd half? Now I realize this was just Indiana, but he had the defense totally off balance. He used the WHOLE playbook, even calling a transcontinental (though Breaston's pass back was actually incomplete). After, the players were interviewed, and they said they hadn't done anything different in practice the week before; Loeffler hadn't called anything the players didn't already practice. He just wasn't afraid to try it in the game as well.
Sure, it's foolish to base so much on one second half against Indiana... but he shows promise, and I support him for it.
My Analysis of all the names that have been mentioned so far.
Ron English: Verdict is still out on him. I give him a pass for the USC game, because I would think the players were about as unexcited to be playing in anything but the national title game as I was to watch it. He lucked out by the fact that he stepped in the year where we had, arguably, our most talented defense ever. Our secondary sucks, but that's more due to missing out on guys like King and Eugene the past couple years. He's fiery, which I like. He's black, which can't hurt him when it comes to recruiting. Not all that concerned with lack of head coaching experience. Next year will be a real barometer for him, although I have a feeling we will end up being a lot more conservative on defense and try letting our offense win the games, instead of vis versa. Chances? I'd say about 25% he's our next head guy.
Les Miles: Ummm, ehhh. I could have coached those LSU teams to the wins they've had. He is bringing in great recruits, and you can't forget the Katrina factor in all of this. Decent track record at OK State, highlighted primarily by knocking off OU a few times, but his teams never put full seasons together there. Probably had the most talented team in the country this year, but hard to win 4 road games like the ones they had. Would the buy out be an issue? Who knows. Pelini and Fisher are great coordinators, so he has obviously benefitted from that as well. I'd say about 25% for him, too.
DeBord: Please God, no. This would doom us. He is NOT the answer. No innovation, doesn't look like a head coach. Martin himself would be on the hot seat if we hire DeBord. Chances....I hope 0, but realistically around 10%.
Cameron: I think he probably would have been the front runner, but it looks like we'll be a year too late. I can't imagine a scenario where he leaves the Dolphins. Chances....0.
Trgovac: Runs a really solid defense in Carolina. Although he may be the beneficiary of one of the most talented defenses in the league, and don't forget that John Fox is a defensive guy himself. But if you're succeeding in the NFL, you have to be pretty good. One thing that scares me a bit is that...the main problem, supposedly, with Hermann's defenses is that they were too complicated, more like an NFL defense. Could he "dumb down" his system and bring it here? It would be nice to bring in some new blood, especially with NFL experience. I think if we called, he'd come. If we brought him in, we'd lose English though. I'd imagine the conversation last year when he was leaving for the Bears went something like.....we'll give you the DC job for yourself, and you will have an opportunity to become the next head man. Hard to see him staying on as DC. Trgovac...Out of all the guys I have mentioned so far, I would like him best. You can't win anything without a rock solid defense, and if we paired him with a good young OC, I think we could do some things. Chances? I'd
re: crawford. yea, i agree it's all on the NCAA. but still, BE brought in a guy that had questionable (only to the ncaa) NCAA elig. he played 13 games i think.
Ash...good points, i agree.
Bean: i didn't recall the lefty as OC for a 1/2 vs IU but he's the one guy on the staff that, to me, is an obvious choice to take the next step forward within the program. the Coords are questionable at best to move up to HC. what about Fred Jackson? he's certainly off the radar. Frank solitch got a raw deal...and has spent 4-5 years recruiting OH: he's worth consideration, imo.
re: cameron...what's he done at the colege level that MDB hasn't? i guess i'm not totally sold on the NFL guys being sure-fire great college HCs. OTOH, carroll, Weiss, Holtz (lesser extent), Saban (bad example but still), disprove my own point. i will say that Cam could walk away from the dolphins for M. if saban could so could Cam. i really thing we need a guy that can walk into OH HSs and get guys to commit.
trgovac...i don't know much about him...i'd have to look up his resume. what do players say/whats the inside scoop on this guy?
Re: Genarlow Wilson. There's now legislation in front of the Georgia Legislature that will allow for the modification of sentences under certain circumstance (allowing the sentence on Wilson to be repealed in full).
http://www.legis.ga.gov/legis/20...08/sum/
sb37.htm
Any people who live in Georgia can probably write their representative and express their support.
"side notes: unless Brian Ellerbe has had an untimely passing, TA is no worse than the 2nd worst coach in the country."
I think Ellerbe has left the coaching profession, so you can't really count him anymore.
I don't know if TA is the worst coach, but he may well be the worst of any guy with 10 years' experience. Normally, guys like him get weeded out earlier on. He's basically parlayed one good season at Seton Hall into a seemingly endless free pass.
I would certainly support Loeffler as OC over Debord, but that's only going to happen if DB is head coach, which fills me with dread.
I'm sure he's a wonderful father and husband and dedicated Michigan man, but dynamic he is not. I have a hard time envisioning him closing the deal on top recruits. Sure, Jim Tressel doesn't seem to be that magnetic a guy, but DB makes him look like Pete Carroll.
Trgovac is intriguing, but he's never been a head coach. The coaching ranks are littered with the bodies of great assistants who were miserable head coaches, and there's no track record for Trgovac to go on. There's just rosy assumptions and hope.
Dan, I assumed I was the only loon who 's been thinking about Solich. He gets a great amount of abuse from fans, but his record as head coach is pretty good. He's got solid Ohio roots, and knows how a big-time program works. However, I don't think he's ever run a pro-set offense, and going back to an option-type attack will prevent top-grade QBs and many receivers from considering us. I have the same reservations about Paul Johnson, who obviously is one hell of a coach, considering what he's been able to do.
The bigger black mark against Solich from an institutional standpoint is his drunk-driving arrest. After the Moeller affair, I have the feeling that Martin will be avoiding anyone with that on their resume. If Solich moves to another big-name program I bet it's to another school in the south or the Big 12. I was sort of surprised he didn't get much mention for Iowa State after McCarney got canned.
Good points, Don. I don't see Solich as a realistic option, not just because of the type of offense he runs or the previous arrest, but because of his age. He's basically the same age as Carr - he'll be 63 when the season starts. Why would Michigan hire a guy who's within a few years of retirement, knowing that they'll be conducting another search just a few years down the road?
I'd have to think we'd be looking for a more long-term option. And I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't think DeBord as HC would be a total disaster. I agree that he's not very enigmatic, but he did fine as recruiting coordinator previously. He's handled enough aspects of the program (offense, special teams and recruiting) that I think he would oversee things reasonably well, and more importantly, that would allow Loeffler to move up to OC. Assuming Loeffler and English are the coordinators, I would be fine with this.
I don't know if this has been brought up already or not. But what about Chris Petersen, from Boise State? He's doing more there with less talent than probably anywhere else. He's obviously a gutsy playcaller.(Fiesta Bowl) I'm just sayin...
With Petersen, I wonder if he would be less gutsy in his playcalling if he were calling plays at a place like Michigan. At Boise, he can go nuts because ... well, it's Boise. Not to disparage it, but it's not a traditional powerhouse. I wonder if he might tone it down a little -- or a lot -- if he had the weight of Michigan on his shoulders.
Not to say he wouldn't be good, and he'd probably be more interesting in his playcalling than what we have now, but I don't know how much he'd pull out hook-and-ladders and such if he were running the show at Michigan.
re: hockey....i was just looking at all the commits for 07: there are 11. considering that there are maybe 5-6 guys graduating, what does this say about the chances JJ, cogs, even mitera/porter/others return? not good, imo-especially JJ and cogs.
also boise...don't underestimate their talent..that RB has NFL potential. they have more talent than anyone in that conference. especially if you consider they had success under different coaches in the very recent past (urban).i know that doesn't say much, and i'm not saying they're on par with OU/M, but still. random names: what about stoops at AZ. UCLA coach. Tyrone Willingham....just kidding.....Schiano, greg mattison,stan parrish, who's the hottest MAC coach?
I hope you're just kidding.
UCLA coach? UCLA fans want him gone and still do even after their win against USC. And that's his almamater.
Greg Matisson will (and should) never get a sniff at Michigan after his lateral move to ND.
Stan Parrish is too old.
Mike Stoops is a possibility, but I don't think he's willing to do it. He's an Iowa grad and he's building his own program at UA.
Greg Schiano will not come to Michigan since he's a Jersey guy.
Get Tedford!
For some reason...I would LOVE to get Schiano. I really don't know why, I mean, I've been a staunch anti-Miles campaigner, but I have no reason to not feel the same way about Schiano because recently, both of them have had good track records (in very diff situations though). There's just something very intriguing about him.
re: Hockey's big class. We had scholarship money earmarked for Jason Bailey, Trevor Lewis, Tyler Swystun, and Zach MacVoy next year that won't be used, so the 5 guys graduating is more like 9. I believe Vaughn will defer a year if Jack/Mitera/Summers come back, and the other commit is a goalie.
I don't think anyone is counting on Jack returning. It's possible but not likely -- think Branch.
i see, thanks Brian.
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