I watched in a roomful of chattering women and barking dogs. I was generally the only person yelling "FUUUUCK!" at the top of his lungs at the TV at various times. One particular dog would bark at me when I did this, and though I've never been cruel to a dog in my life nor felt the urge to be cruel, I can honestly say in that moment it took all of my willpower not to kick that goddam dog.
What an emotionally draining game.
Brian, just in terms of possible outcomes (not whether we deserve to be in the BCS game or not):
1. Does USC definitely pass us if they beat both USC and Notre Dame? This seems to be the consensus.
2. Will we stay ahead of both Arkansas and Florida, even if one of these teams is impressive next week and in the SEC championship?
3. If you HAD to chose, what match-up would you like to see in the Rose Bowl?
Brian, I love you blog and usually think you analysis is spot-on, but in my opinion, the statement that Michigan "doesn't really belong on the same field with OSU" couldn't be further from the truth. I think the better team won the game, but I didn't see a whole lot seperating the two teams in terms talent or ability. They clearly outplayed us in the first, half, and I think we did the same in the second. Whomever OSU ends up playing in the national championship game, they aren't going to get a tougher game than they got from us.
As for a rematch, I'd obviously love one, although objectively I don't think it's fair to some of the other teams with the same record and similar resume - they certainly deserve a shot at OSU. But if the point of the BCS is to put the two best teams in the country on the field at the end of the season to decide the national championship (honestly, I have no idea what the point of the BCS actually is), I have no qualms about saying that Michigan should be in the game to face OSU for a second time.
The loss was heartbreaking, but I came away from the game very impressed with Michigan. They didn't fold it up at halftime, they fought back, and that entire second half was a dogfight. I think they proved themselves no worse than the country's second-best team.
Rich Eisen! I love your work on the NFL network. Thanks for visiting...
I know that's just the hurt talking Brian.
Michigan put up 39 against what we now know to be the best team in the country and lost by three. They belong.
Good to see you back in one piece. I share your sentiment that Michigan should not get a do-over. Even if these two teams are close (and I think they are if BOTH teams are playing their best), Michigan had its chance and came up short.
Looking forward to the UFR.
\Bowl opponent is probably going to be... um... uninspiring...Michigan is looking at a motley crew of at-large candidates: a two-loss LSU, Arkansas, or Florida, the Big East champion, Notre Dame (ha!), or Oklahoma.//
The Big East Champion...here's hoping it's not West Virginia. The spread/option offense is a lot of fun to watch until it's putting 400-500 yards up on your team's defense, and it seems like that's the only type of team we just have no plan to deal with whatsoever.
You can call the last Michigan touchdown cosmetic if you'd like, but it wasn't aided by a bad interference call. Manningham's hands were swiped away...it was a clear penalty. If he had been given the chance to catch it, maybe we score a little quicker and have a better chance to stop them and get the ball back.
Regardless...it happened the way it happened. Nothing in that game convinced me that we weren't the second best team in the country. We deserve the rematch.
Brian,
I can completely identify with your comments about watching the game with casual fans. I almost punched all 3 of my friends who watched the game with me. I watch the game on a completely different level than they do. They wanted Michigan to win for the party that would ensue. I wanted Michigan to win because I bleed Maize and Blue. When Pittman ran for that long touchdown, I jumped up and screamed profanities about Mundy's pursuit angle on the play. Everyone else just looked at me like I was crazy. It's obvious that I need to watch the games alone or with someone who has more invested emotionally in the game than my friends do. Maybe we serious fans need to coordinate a place where we can all meet to watch the games together.
I'm going to have to agree with those saying Michigan could deserve a rematch. There is only one team in the nation that could have beaten Michigan on Saturday, and they did. I'm not even sure that team could have beaten us on a neutral field.
When a team breaks two huge touchdown runs against the best run defense in the country, you have to call at least one of them a fluke. When the new math doesn't get under a pass that he hasn't missed all year, that is a fluke. Add the emotional roller coaster of Bo's death and I think that a rematch in 50 days is the best thing for college football.
USC lost to Oregon State for fucks sake. ND got BEATDOWN at home. Arkansas lost to USC and has little to no passing game. Florida can't decide if they are really good or just bleh. Hell, the most talented team in the SEC could pound the shit out of them this weekend.
As it is, I would pick Ohio State to win the NFC West and Michigan to finish second. It is rather obvious that these are the two best teams in the nation, going away. Give both coaching staffs a month and a half to gameplan, and I wouldn't be surprised if the score was 10-7.
Anyhow, the weekend wasn't a total loss, my niece(3.5) and nephew(5)learned to yell Go Blue! when I came up the stairs to smoke. So, I had that going for me.
I felt the same way about watching games with others who didn't have the same psychosis.
I watched with a friend who's a fan, but not quite as nuts about it as I am. But I figured, he's a Michigan fan, I haven't seen him in a while, so I can't say no. He annoyed me during the game.
If this situation ever happens again..shit, maybe even next year's game no matter the situation, I'm goin full-on hermit mode.
No friends, no family, no women, nothing but me, my couch, TV, beer and food, and incomprehensible cheer and rage directed at said TV.
I think you'll be more optimistic about a rematch against OSU after you do the UFR. They were the better team, and I've never seen a college offense that strong, but the margin was still razor thin on their turf.
To Johnny re WVa,
The difference is that WVa's attack is based on the running game whereas OSU is all about the pass. OSU broke two long ones but otherwise didn't run it all that well (didn't try to really). No doubt WVa would break a long one or two but I feel very confident that UM's D would limit them. And the O would have a good time with their defense.
One of the greatest games ever played. Certainly Ohio State's biggest win EVER.
42-39 at night in Columbus on a crap field. Game decided with 30 seconds left. The two teams are dead even, IMO.
I believe we would win on a neutral field.
"OSU broke two long ones but otherwise didn't run it all that well (didn't try to really)."
numbers not in front of me, but subtract the 2 long ones and pittman and wells still combined for ~20 carries at over 4 a pop. obviously, it was the threat of the pass that set up the run here but the claim that osu's success on the ground was fluky is an untenable one.
Brian,
That was a great description of the OSU fans. Their PR campaign ("Best Fans in the Land") is definitely having an effect. Many OSU fans went out of their way to shake my hand or say "good luck." Of course, a few others were complete morons. For some strange reason, I felt compelled to establish to the drunk sitting beside me that I wasn't about to put up with his rude bullshit after he berated our band and mocked our fightsong before kickoff. It seemed to work, because he was much more polite after that.
A good friend of mine wanted to come over to watch the game on Saturday. He called about 30 mins out and said that he had a close friend in town, but that she was a rabid OSU fan and was it okay to bring her over? I paused for a few seconds and said no. He was obviously shocked, based upon the silence that decending on the conversation, and then asked if I was serious. I said "yes." He joked about how mature I was being and that he should have realized that I couldn't handle making the right "mature" decision, and while I apologized for the awkwardness of the situation, I did not relent. Long story long, they didn't come over, we lost the game, and immediately after time ran out, he text messaged me:
"Now I understand why you were too immature to make the right decision. I guess you really were scared."
Classy...
I'm thinking of writing this guy off... am I being too harsh? He doesn't even care about football. I don't think he knew what those words meant to me. And what's with all the maturity talk. This isn't about maturity, this is about OSU fans and their bad karma. Right?
Brian, way to go on just getting into the game, student-section or not. And I'm glad you weren't murderized.
I set up a reservation for 40 of my Michigan friends at a sports bar in Chicago. We arrived several hours early to discover that they had our reservation, but no place to put us (apparently the word reservation was not commensurate with the actual reserving of anything). They also had a reservation for 40 OSU fans. The bar managers were totally inept, and we had to negotiate with the Buckeye fans ourselves. The ones organizing their group were cool people, and we managed to work it all out. The funny thing was, they approached us assuming that we would behave exactly like the stereotypical OSU fans would behave. It's like they think that's how fans are supposed to act or something. By the time the game ended, some of their friends were being complete jackasses, but as you said, it was a minority. I'm sure if we would have won things probably would have been a lot uglier - I do have a couple jackass friends, too.
I also politely invited some of my non-Michigan friends and they proceeded to irritate me whenever I was near them. They were rooting for Michigan, but obviously not in the same way.
Any fan of college football should be against a rematch. It is not in the spirit of the game. Someone else deserves a chance to play them. I don't think we played our best game, and neither did they (although we were way farther off our best than they were). In a rematch, I agree with Mike Hart that it would be a whole different game. I'm not sure we'd win, and I REALLY can't take two losses to OSU in one season. I hope USC wins out and gets destroyed. And if we win the Rose Bowl, what's wrong with that?
I'm with Rich Eisen...Those two long runs up the middle-slash-karate kicks to my testicles, Crable's Blunder, everything taking place on the road...we took it to them in the second half on long drives and generally stuffed them (the turnovers coming on their side of the field, two on third downs, no?). it wasn't that bad.
Two other things (sorry for the multiple posts):
I bet the OSU fans were on better behavior because of Bo's death. I received several very compassionate e-mails and comments from co-workers who OSU-it-up with the best of 'em.
I wore my I-heart-hart shirt and it was a HUGE hit. Some people didn't get it, but most of my friends just thought it was awesome. And actually, a lot of women were intrigued by it. Too bad I was feeling too miserable to talk to any living person after the game. What I'm trying to say is, thanks Brian. And Hart can't go pro - I have to keep wearing this thing around next year...
Brian, you can't really believe some of what you said. I was there, I watched the same game you did. I don't believe there's anything other than a hair... maybe two... separating us and them. It's just the hurt and the emotional exhaustion talking. It has to be. You've been too logical for too long to go crazy now. All the evidence to suggest that we belong is to ask yourself who in the country would have defeated us on Saturday? And when you can come up with only Ohio State, then I'd say that's all the evidence you need to say "we belong."
Brian, Brian, Brian... Come back please. I hope you Tivo'd this game and will have a chance to objectively criticize it with your usual no-nonsense attention to detail. I have to say, I was in Columbus watching at a friends house with only hard-core Michigan Fans (the kind that yell fuck all game long for every play - good and bad). I think watching from the stands when you mortgage your house away kind of warps the kind of game you see. I agree that OHIO State looked like they couldn't be stopped, but come on neiter could HART. He was the man on Saturday and it is no wonder he was frustrated after the game. I'll cut this off short, but something to think about. My friends were upset because in the first half I couldn't stop talking about the pass that sailed over Manningham's head with no pressure on Henne. That would have put us up 14-7. And, later it would have been 21-21 potentially. That was a game changer for momentum. And, don't forget momentum is a game changer on the home field. For one it takes the opposing fans out of the game or two the momentum riles up the fans. I can't believe that we wouldn't beat them on a neutral field. Put another way, re-match with OSU in Arizona produces the closest odds of any opponent. OSU would be favored, but not by -7. WE would not allow two 50 plus yd rushing touchdowns (the second was atrocious). WE wouldn't burn all of our time-outs early. Henne wouldn't miss a wide-open Manningham down the field. Smith wouldn't be able to pass at will. And, I agree with Hart, it would be a completely different game in a rematch. For one, the field was horrible, and an obvious advantage for the offenses. We all suspected that their offense is better than their defense, but when you play on that field you give a slight edge to the offenses of both teams. Nobody could cut on the field without falling down. It was a disgusting field. If it was mother nature, I would say so be it. But they just replaced it for the second time this season. They also, and it is just my biased oppinion didn't look like they had as much trouble running on it. Did they wear different cleats, did they practice on it, or test it or what, because they obviously knew that field better.
Our secondary isn't getting better anytime soon, so I'm not sure what else we could do in a rematch. We had success in the second half, but we can't press their receivers, so we'd never get to Smith before he threw it. Eventually, they'll score. Barringer would probably have made some difference, because those long runs were Mundy Blue Light Specials. At best, they would still have the edge.
At the same time, I've watched the other teams vying for the number 2 spot except Arkansas. Those other teams shouldn't be vying.
Yes, you hit the nail on the head: Watching Michigan play, especially v. ND or Ohio State, is the only thing in my life that turns me into a nut case, a condition that my long-suffering wife cannot get her mind around. She has come to the conclusion that I am in a severely co-dependent relationship with a football team. She may have a point, as I usually work through a typical sequence of emotions that include denial, paralysis, rage, resignation, excuse-making, etc. Maybe the worst thing is that my 8 year-old daughter is picking up my habits, attitudes, and insane attachment. Have ... to ... break ... the ... curse
But I still think M belongs on the same field as the Nuts. I almost folded at half-time; they didn't, and nearly pulled it off.
Brian, you were right on about our DBs, somehow Sears hasn't played that well and Stewart isn't even good to get on field against good teams. If we had landed King/Macho Harris/JAi/Walls things could have been better. THis makes getting ROjo that much more important.
Another point that i would want to make is that missed opportunity to score a TD on branch's int and going three and out on the messed up snap by Datish. Those were chances that went begging.
11-1 is awesome, lets get that bowl win now.
"When a team breaks two huge touchdown runs against the best run defense in the country, you have to call at least one of them a fluke."
Yeah, but still, if you remove 108 yards and two attempts (and remove the -5 on the sacks), you still wind up with over 100 yards rushing on the day, with a 4+ YPC avg. Negative rushing plays (sacks included) only totaled -10. Rushing lanes were there for OSU.
If there is a rematch, I don't know what UM could possibly have taken from this game that would allow the staff to create a gameplan that addresses the issues, other than to instruct DBs to be faster and hope for a bad game from Smith.
Thing is, Rose Bowl is great and all, but not this year for this team. That game was so draining, I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up in the Rose Bowl, and lost to some inferior team because we don't show up. This would be the typical Michigan team: Is this year's team truly different than what we've seen recently? That game would decide. It is because of this that I hope we get a rematch, even though we probably don't deserve it. Either way, I certainly don't want to play Oklahoma, who has the worst fight song that gets played on every first down, or some SEC team that doesn't know how to score (sorry, SEC, but I don't like you). Maybe my opinion will change, but honestly, the only way I think our Michigan team will be up for another game after that would be a rematch.
"I was in Columbus watching at a friends house with only hard-core Michigan Fans (the kind that yell fuck all game long for every play - good and bad)."
Geez, maybe I should have watched the game with you guys. I was isolated in my yelling of fuck all game long.
\Any fan of college football should be against a rematch. It is not in the spirit of the game. Someone else deserves a chance to play them.//
I submit that this whole BCS is "against the spirit of the game". If the old skool rules were in place, OSU goes to the Rose Bowl and plays USC and we're not even having this discussion.
As it is, the current NCAA format for deciding its football national champion require that best two teams play, although it also stipulates that the best two teams are ranked #1 & #2 in whatever determining formula they use.
As of today, that's still Michigan and ohio state. If Notre Dame beats USC this weekend all bets are off (because Arkansas isn't going to lose to Florida in the SEC championship game).
I'm not looking forward to playing osu again. I'm sick of them. I've been a Michigan fan since I was 8 years old and even going back to the year I was born (1967) we've never been pwned as badly as we are lately, and I'm convinced their team is better than ours this year.
But there isn't another team in the country who could play with them as well as we did on Saturday. Someone has to face them in AZ on January, and as long as we're #2 in the country according to the polls when those idiots in the SEC/Big 12/ACC play their cash-grabs known as their conference championships, it won't matter anyway.
No one here REALLY believes that there's a better second-best team than Michigan...the predominant agrument is that we had our shot and blew it; let someone else get a crack at 'em. I can't really accept that; it's like saying that Michigan should automatically be disquailified because we're not the best team in our own conference. That's not our fault; it says as much about the quality of football at the top of the other conferences in the country as it does as the quality of football in the Big Ten.
\And the O would have a good time with their (WVU) defense.//
It's true, if they could play a lick of defense they'd still be undefeated and we're probably not discussing a UM-osu rematch.
I disagree with Brian on Axiom #27.
Ohio State was down two scores(!) with 7 minutes to go last year. They had scored 12 points the whole game with only 15% of gametime left! Did anyone expect 13 more points? In last year's game, if Gonzales had dropped that crazy scramble bomb pass or Troy throws the ball away or gets sacked as he should have, that game would have been a tight Michigan win that was "not as close as the score indicated" with OSU scoring a cosmetic touchdown late in the fourth quarter.
This year's game - it's a missed tackle here, a bad cut on the turf there, a missed assignment, an injured safety. Troy Smith again lives by inches.
With that said, if they played again, unfortunately Troy Smith would again live by inches when a meteorite strikes Rivas as he lines up for a game winning field goal. Smith made a deal with the devil.
Bria, I'm glad you had a mostly positive experience with OSU fans before during and after the game. The small percentage of assholes is an embarassment to the rest of us.
I'm torn on a rematch, and will need to see how the rest of the games play out. My inital thought is no rematch, because you had your shot, but I'm not sure I would feel the same way if the scores were reversed. But, if you are the 2nd best team in two weeks, if you don't play us, it would be further proof the BCS doesn't work. Some years the best two teams happen to be in the same conference.
A couple final thoughts. For those that want a rematch, would you feel better if you lost again on a neutral field? I'm not saying we would win again, I tend to agree with Brian's first take on the game, but unlike Mike Hart I won't guarantee a win. :) And if you win, will Michigan Stadium be ready the next weeknd for the third and decisive game? :) One here, one neutral, and one at home for you sounds fair.
As for the turf, that is just an embarassment for us. What was reported here was that both teams did walkthroughs on the new turf on Friday, i think, but OSU did not practice or have any extra time on the field since the groundskeepers were trying to get the best field they could and kept everyone off it. The field has been crappy in some other games and while this was new and different turf we have had some experience with bad conditions this year which may have been an edge for us.
People can say what they want about those fumbles being gifts from tOSU. But wasn't Henne overthrowing a wide open Arrington and Manningham on two drive which promptly ended afterwards also gifts? I mean Manningham was 6 guaranteed. And Arrington depending on the angle the safety would have taken was 6 guaranteed too. I mean execution errors are just that. I'd say those were gifts on tOSU's part. I seriously don't get why we didn't press their receivers not named Ginn. I mean they had to make some miracle plays when we pressed and had good safety play (see first drive where Troy Smith had to pull some stuff from his ass)... once Barringer went out, we were getting toasted (I think because Mundy shifted from corner to safety to help depth and Sears came in the game). I do think we need ALOT better DB recruiting. It is really what killed us. And it wouldn't have killed us if Smith weren't mobile. But he was.
Bah, that was supposed to be Brian, not Bria. Sorry.
Gene-
Write the person off. he doesn't get it.
First off: Brian, thanks for everything. Take your time with UFR. I can't wait to see it, but you deserve the break.
Second: I was at the game, too, and already watched the replay once. I believe OSU was the better team on Saturday. Not by a long shot, but not by a hair. I respect your opinion and will be interested to see what you think with a week's perspective and UFR, but I don't agree with bullet #3.
As a college football fan, I don't really want to see a rematch (although as a Michigan fan, I really, really do), but I think Michigan has a very good (maybe great) case as the second best team in the country. I'm open to arguments for other teams, though. I just hate all the rematch talk when I feel the talk should be about who is the second best team in the country.
Based on a pretty good performance at OSU, especially the second half, I think that's Michigan.
Thanks again, Brian. Contribution forthcoming.
Yes, there are some objective reasons against a rematch.
But in my view, you can't call yourself a fan of this Michigan team and say you don't want a rematch.
No matter what, you want your team in the championship. Don't give me this "integrity of the regular season" crap. I've given too much to this team to bow down to a shitty system. This is my team. I know we are the best. We deserve to be there.
End of story.
Even if there was a rematch, and UM won, what would it mean? Best-of-three? We didn't get it done. It's over.
Would love to see UM/FL in the Rose.
I have to strongly disagree with the idea that "we could run on them".
The entire reason that we switched to a zone blocking scheme was because last year, we couldn't run the ball in critical situations. And what happened this year? Hart gets stopped on 3rd on 1 in the first quarter, and after that, we're back to throwing incomplete passes on 3rd and 3.
Ohio State did a great job of keeping a couple guys on the weakside and plugging up the cutback lanes for Hart. The only running plays that were successful were a few times that Hart broke through the strong side on the zone play, and a couple draws that Michigan threw into the mix. Hart finished with great numbers, but the running game wasn't there when we needed it.
Brian, what section you were in? I, too, was alone in the student section. Sounds like you and I had pretty much the EXACT same game experience, right down to "I collapsed to my seat after the Crable personal foul and then watched the remainder of the game in a haze." Literally, exactly the same for me, in the student section, by myself. Watching their female fans take pictures of me that I am sure are already on facebook. Depressing.
"Even if there was a rematch, and UM won, what would it mean? Best-of-three? We didn't get it done. It's over."
But that isn't the system. The system we have says the 1 and 2 teams play each other. If the possibility of a rematch is too much for the Harris/USA Today voters, then by all means, drop us down. But therein lies the difficultly: Outside of USC, there aint noone else to put in our place. If Michigan-OSU national title leads to changes in the BCS, fine. But otherwise, 1 and 2 play.
And I agree with the other posters on bullet point three: The risk of a botched snap is a risk they accepted by running the shotgun with a center who had a banged up hand. They killed us with it, then it nearly killed them.
The game didn't end with an onside kick: It ended with a Shawn Crable head butt out of bounds. This was a close game, Brian. I know so because they keep score at these things.
Like Michigan-Texas in the '04 Rose Bowl, I thought that was a thrilling, valiant loss that was decided on the margins and could have gone either way. Improve the turf and beg God to call off his wrath against Sean Crable and we might be having an entirely different conversation today. Not that I feel like it was an unfair or questionable loss (these things happen) but Michigan played.
Tressel's playcalling was a master class in the dark arts, but our offense was still able to go point for point. Troy Smith is a robot, but periodically looked winded and human. Our defense played on turf that resembled a slip 'n slide perched over a sinkhole. We weren't remotely dominated; we lost a close game to a great team, and sometimes it is what it is.
My biggest grief was having Henne throw on 3rd and 1 in the fourth at a point when Hart was a human jackhammer. My second-biggest grief: Crable not stopping Chris Wells.
Hey Brain,
I wanted to commend you on your commentary of the game here. I am a pretty rational Ohio State fan, which as your comments suggest there aren't many of, but I have nothing to take exception to in your commentary .. It was dead on.
I'm not trying to start an argument or anything with those of you who disagree with Brian but go back and watch the game again and see if you still agree. Sometimes that's tough to swallow in a loss.
On a brighter note, Hart is a stud. Up until this game I always thought he was a little over rated, but he totally changed my opinion. I don't know about his after the game comments .. but I understand those.
Good work.
http://oh-io.blogspot.com
I won't go as far as Brian, but tOSU was definitely the better team on Saturday. And I will agree on the importance of recruiting, because the Buckeyes' main advantage was in depth. We have one great tailback - they have two fine ones. We have three good wideouts - they have at least five. We have five standout defensive linemen, they use eight. They have a bunch of extra linebackers, we have Chris Graham.
By the way, was Graham in the game because he's better than Burgess in pass coverage? Yikes.
So rather than try to beat our strength, they were able to change their personnel and attack our weakness. It took English until halftime to find a way to counter their strategy, and by then we had fallen in the hole that we never quite climbed out of.
I'm pretty sure that we're the second best team in the country, and I expect we'll finish the season at #2 after USC or Florida loses by more than three points in Glendale.
I watched the game with my parents and in-laws, without my wife, funny enough. Luckily they are as rabid as my father and I are; otherwise we might not have been invited back.
I didn't realize it at the time, but the loss of Barringer (and his experience) was huge. So was the fact that Graham played the majority of the game in the Will linebacker spot due to Burgess' injury and that hurt a lot.
On the Pitman TD, Graham ran directly into the tackle to take him on, rather than filling the gap to his left which Pittman ran right by on his way to paydirt. I'll leave the safety run support for Brian's UFR.
Also, credit Tressel with finding our weaknesses/mismatches and exploiting them - Graham was scored on by Gonzo, Sears abused by Robiskie, etc.,
Another general observation is that our D-backs are not great direct blizters, I would have liked to see English go with the delay blitz a bit more often, or zone blitz some more because on the "standard" blitz, the DB's often seemed to run directly into the largest O-lineman they could find, rather than finding the open gap to Smith. Also, credit the OSU line for good blitz pick-up.
The final thing I noted is that in the first half, the D line did not have their hands up. If you're not going to get to the QB, you better get your hands up.
Here's hoping that this is a great lesson for English in terms of scheming, planning (and recruiting), because as many of you noted above, the talent level in the secondary is not what it was; I long for the days of Tripp Welbourne and Vada Murray, Marcus Ray et. al.
If there is a rematch, we will have to scheme our way out of the apparent talent/experience gap as Tressel will again go deep to his talented bench and unpredictable game planning.
Offensively, PLEASE NO MORE STRETCH PLAYS ON 3RD and SHORT!!! Iso or play action always seems to work better. We did a good job again of not being predictable on 1st and 2nd, but got killed on some critical 3rd downs. The day of the hang-our-hat play is gone, Tressel seems to know that, we should too.
All I can say is that this feeling sucks Mountain Goat sack. Congrats to OSU/Tressel for their strategery and solid game planning and to our Wolverines for sticking with it to the end. I'm happy to see Smith go.
My father-in-law talked about a "Bo's revenge" rematch immediately afterward. I'm for it; my emotions are overriding my better logic currently.
Thanks to the mgoblog for the cathartic comment thread.
Well Brian, what can I say? Maybe one day I will watch a game with you allowing our fan powers to combine in some sort of awesome explosion of Michigan greatness.
I don't want to see a rematch on purely selfish grounds -- if we were to lose twice to OSU in the same year, I'm not sure I could watch a football game, ANY football game, ever again.
I can't wait for you to watch the game on Tivo, 'cause I think your opinion will change. Yes, OSU seemed to drive against the Michigan D in a way that every Mich fan thought would be impossible. Yes, Troy Smith is The Heisman candidate. And, Yes, our secondary was sub par. However, upon re-play I think you will notice that the breaks tended to favor OSU despite Mich's +3 turnovers.
The newly sown turf seemed to dissipate disprortionatley under the feet of the Wolverines. I'm not claiming that this is evidence that Chris Perry was correct when he said that "Tressel's been cheating," but I am saying that there was much luck involved in OSU's win. Also look at OSU first breakaway rush TD, by Wells. Mundy had the angle, would have stopped the run, but for... THE DAMNED REF!!!
OSU - Mich rematch would be welcomed. For once I suck it up and cheer, cheer, for old Notre Dame.
Dear Brian,
I know you're hurting. I know it aches. But stop looking at things through your tears.... the mandate of the BCS is to get the BEST TWO TEAMS in the game. Not to let everyone have their fair shot at the top guy.
When you actually look at the teams - with your eyes - the truth becomes apparent.
Michigan is the number 2 in the country.
Nuetral site - Michigan would be favored over all contenders.
Having put eyeballs on Arkansas they are a great one horse team that's hot. But their D would get scorched by tOSU.
Florida is wildly inconsistent. Plays down to bad teams. Lacks identity and focus on D. Witness the 4th quarter self destruct at Auburn. Or the way South Carolina moved on them with the game on line. Without the Tebow hysteria and a really tall guy with long arms, this team could have 3 L's.
USC is not up to it's previous gold standard. The offense is sloppy. The D will allow lots of yards. I'd love to see what Wisconsin could do to them. Might not be pretty.
Like it or not, Michigan is number 2. And they deserve another shot.
I had three thoughts after watching the game:
1. That was a great game even though we lost.
2. Considering the good weather, those field conditions were completely unacceptable. I want to see these two teams play on proper field.
3. Vernon Gholston is on roids:
http://menofthescarletandgray.co...ds/
gholston.jpg
After I saw him completely push an OL and RB into Henne at the same time, I couldn't help but laugh.
I haven't posted yet, because I am still getting over the fealing of being completely wiped out from the emotional roller-coaster that was Friday and Saturday. The entire experience was surreal, and now that it is over, I really do have an empty, dissapointed, miserable fealing. As far as a rematch, I am still not sure what I want. We clearly have a better resume than USC, ND (head to head thumping) and either of the SEC teams, so we deserve to go. It is probably the only game I would get legitimately excited about, after last weekend. That said, I really don't want to lose to OSU twice in one season, and I don't want JT to be 6-1 against us.
Regardless, I am very proud of our team, and the class, toughness and pride that we showed. For those who will (foolishly) start calling for Carr's head, keep in mind where the attributes that you are most proud of in our team come from - they come from Carr. And, while OSU is trumpeting JT's 6-1 mark against Michigan, Carr is still 6-6 against OSU, not 1-5. Carr coached a hell of a game, and nothing that JT did (short of distributing steriods and cash advances to his players) made the difference in the game. Troy Smith is simpy unstoppable.
One final note: Brian, thanks for all that you do with this board. It has given me, and undoubtedly thousands of like-minded, die-hard, obsessive fans, a place to go, both in the hype leading up to the big game, and in the aftermath, whether we can be around those who get it.
Go Michigan! Bring on the Rose Bowl!!!!
Not to a rematch. Let's hope that ND beats USC so we play USC in the Rose Bowl (the way college football should be).
Many reasons good reasons against a replay--all the good ones here and those on the tO$U open thread.
Early in the year, someone on this blog (Brian?) or another said that we were a year away from the national championship. Nothing I've seen changes that.
Brian--
Two things I'd like to see discussed:
1. What tO$U did to spring the tailbacks on those two long runs.
2. Were their receivers cutting down our corners/linebackers before passes were caught on a couple of big plays? Sure looked like it to me but there was no replay.
Bri-man:
I'm feeling ya, G. That hurt. That loss, in that place, to that team, coming off the death of Bo, is not one to walk off readily.
But, I'm reminded of something that you wrote after the ND beatdown. After the season of infinite pain, we sent the world a message. We are back. We are still back. We will obliterate our foe in the bowls. I was actually practically crying with Hart running in the 3rd qtr, which is exactly what Bo taught us. We are back, and we will not quit.
(And, if that doesn't make you feel better, T Young is now bound for the Lions, which means his career might last about 30 days.)
Brian - occasionally read your blog directed by OSU blogs.
I have to say I thought M played a tremendous game and laid it all out. There were some breakdowns and big plays, but I thought for the most part that they played a poised game and left it all out on the field and then some.
I'm sure you'll drub us good and fine next year, and I'll be pushing for you in a bowl game (*especially* if it's Notre Dame).
I think if USC and either Arkansas or Florida wins out, they deserve a shot at the Buckeyes.
But if Arkansas loses this weekend then beats Florida in the SEC Championship and USC loses to ND, then I think Michigan deserves the rematch.
But as it stands, we had our shot, and espcially if SC wins out, they've earned a shot too.
Yeah I totally missed the sarcasm. My bad. The loss has apparently placed a cloud on my brain. Sigh.
I mostly agree with Axiom #27, though I will say that there's a difference between an unrecovered onside kick in a 3 point game with 2 minutes left and an unrecovered onside kick in an 8 point game with 20 seconds left. If we recover the kick the game magically becomes close? The line can't be that thin.
Tough loss, Blue. I was pulling for you as were many PSU fans.
For all of you pulling and hoping for a rematch I have to tell you you don't deserve one. You had your shot. You came up short. It's not fair to Ohio State to have to beat you twice. Likewise, it's not fair that if you split with them you win the title and they don't.
You had a great team and a fantastic year. But like 116 other Div I-A schools, the MNC wasn't meant to be.
dwagon,
"Even if there was a rematch, and UM won, what would it mean? Best-of-three? We didn't get it done. It's over."
I understand the point but the reality is that it's not just the BCS. Remember, FLA claimed a MNC after beating FSU in a re-match game as recently as 10 years ago. True, those teams were not from the same conference but I don't think that Florida's championship is really tarnished by that.
Bottom line - if USC wins out, they deserve to go otherwise I think Michigan deserves a shot on a neutral field. If not, let's hope Michigan gets a good matchup in the Rose.
I agree about no rematch. We had our shot just like a playoff would be. Let's move on. T Smith would beat us a 4th time. Our DBs just can't match up with their WRs. The real horror is that OSU will be preseason #1 next year and will have a great D, OL WRs and RBs. All they need is a caretaker QB to be right there all year. We will be rebuilding our D and our OL will be a big ?
Brian,
A few points:
1)Great blog. Best I have seen.
2)I know exactly how you feel about watching the game with people that don’t feel as though their sole purpose for living rides on the outcome of the Michigan football game. I use a megaphone to yell at the TV during the games.
3)Michigan DOES belong on the same field as OSU. Please consider the following: Henne missed some open receivers and took a couple bad sacks he might not otherwise miss/take. Lloyd did not go for it on 2 fourth downs that I just knew in my heart, at the time, would be the difference in the game. Imagine that Crable did not get flagged for the hit on Smith…very possibly a different outcome. The pass interference call on the Manningham 4th down pass was certainly interference (and a smart play by the OSU db). A freak long run by Wells when trapped in the backfield. Burgess playing on a half leg and Barringer out most the game. OSU deserved to win, but Michigan was fell short by very little all things considered.
4)Regarding the rematch: It is not ideal, but neither is the BCS system. It is the BCS system we are stuck with (for now). The 2 best teams are supposed to be matched at end of the season regardless of conference affiliation. Hats off to OSU; they were the better team on Saturday. They still need to win one more game, however, to win the NC. They need to win the game regardless of who they play and even if they have already beaten that team. I am quite certain many NFL teams would like a rule that prevent them from having to face a team in the playoffs that they have already beaten during the regular season (e.g. Indy).
5)I was there Saturday too. That was probably the most hostile environment possible to play (and watch) a road game and Michigan did very well. I do agree that a couple more top DB recruits could have made the difference on Saturday. I can only hope RoJo and DAllen were watching the game imagining themselves shutting down Ginn. I also hope that Mr. Jai Eugene was imagining what could have been…
6)I was hoping for an onside kick up the middle. Something unexpected.
7) Tressel does not own Carr, rather Troy Smith owns every defense in college football.
I'm of mixed opinion on the whole rematch thing. On one hand, OSU looked like a better team. On the other hand, I can't imagine that any other team in the country could manage any better than Michigan.
I think that Brian is right about the depth issues in the Michigan secondary. I will probably never forget the sight of Chris Graham haplessly trying to check Anthony Gonzalez. Chris Graham? Against one of the better receivers in the country? And let's give Tressel some credit here while we're at it. He identified the weakness in Michigan's defense. The weakness wasn't the starting defensive backfield, but the guys in the nickel and dime. Tressel gambled that the OSU O-line could keep Smith safe long enough to get the ball to one of 5 guys sent out in patterns, and it worked - UM just didn't have the personnel to stop 5 darn good wide-outs.
I was on the other side of that mirror through much of the 90s. If Micigan was better than OSU -- they won. If they were the same -- they won. If they were worse -- they won. I picked your friend's course. I eventually stopped watching The Game. Even though it's some of my earliest childhood memories (I remember getting out my Mom's High School yearbook so I could look at pictures of Woody coaching New Philly while I watched The Game), it's my way of reconnecting with my homeland and our State's rich football culture -- it just sucked to feel that under Coop it really wasn't a "game" anymore, but a pre-scheduled festival of shame.
So, I feel ya. And I'm honored by your eschewing rationalization/whining, but accepting the defeat as Lloyd did, by declaring us the better team.
"For all of you pulling and hoping for a rematch I have to tell you you don't deserve one. You had your shot. You came up short. It's not fair to Ohio State to have to beat you twice. Likewise, it's not fair that if you split with them you win the title and they don't."
Fair has nothing to do with it. This is the system we have. Unfair would be penalizing UM b/c people don't want to see the game twice. Too bad. That's the BCS.
BTW: Had we pulled it out, you can be damn sure that we'd be playing OSU again in the title game.
Drew: if you have no timeouts it's pretty much the same if you don't recover. Teams invariably kick deep if they will get the ball back with time on the clock. The onside is only used when a team needs an extra possession to win.
What can I say? I'm surprised at everyone's reaction. This is no more an emotional reaction to the game than what I wrote leading up to it was delusional homerism. We were handed ten points by two fumbled shotgun snaps (the third turnover was caused by pressure and good play, let that stand). Unless you think Michigan has its own mystical Sith crap going on, those were complete flukes that only serve to disguise how close the game actually was: not very.
Also, the only real difference of opinion here is about the SEC champion. I think the loss was decisive enough that Florida or Arkansas would deserve to go over us. Notre Dame has no shot and shouldn't have one.
Bo Knows:
Follow the link for where this quote came from:
On the possibility of a BCS Championship Game rematch: "I swear to you, I don't even think of that. I don't think of that as a possibility at all. They're not going to do that. Of course it would not be fair. Once you beat a team, it's over … I would not be in favor of that under any circumstances."
It would be shameful to go against the wishes of your great football father.
I'm a Buckeye fan, but I'm not one who is a stats expert...I just observe.
I'm tired of the complaints about the fans. I was in the OSU Marching Band for 5 years (and made 2 trips up north as a band member) and I've made a trip up as "regular person". As a band member, generally speaking most Mich fans, one on one (ie in the restroom or something), treated us pretty well and made comments like "your band is really great" or "we love what you guys do" etc. but in the stadium, we had all kinds of crap thrown at us including drinks and marshmallows w/pennies in them and who knows what else. We did not feel safe and it was common for parts of our uniforms to be ripped off as we'd march in or out. It was not pleasant. As a regular Buckeye fan, we were treated much worse! I dare any one of you M!ch#g*n fans to go to a UMvOSU game dressed as a Buckeye fan to experience ALL the same things that you've been complaining about.
The conclusion: fans are just about the same everywhere. Get over it, it's just how it is. While I'm happy that there are compaigns to make fans more polite, please be aware that the problem is everywhere there are successful football teams with loyal enthusiasts.
To the folks who complain about the field: yes, we know it sucks. The OSU athletic dept can only say it is impossible to grow grass 14 feet below the water table with one hour of sun per day. Duh! Mich fans, you weren't the only one suffering on the field but you really should be glad they tried to put new turf in because it was worse at the Minnesota game. It was mostly dirt then.
And about that penalty called for hel to hel contact on Smith: Those kinds of hits are dangerous and not just part of football being a contact sport. That same hit occured at the OSUvMinn game. The player was knocked unconscious. I didn't think anything about it until Ginn went over to help him up and the player wasn't responding and Ginn started freaking out. I really thought that guy was headed for the hospital and possible the end of his football career or worse, his life. You and I both know these guys know how hard they're hitting and where they're landing those hits. They need the noose tightend around their necks when they pull that crap...I don't care what team they're on. Bottom line: these are 18,19,20 year olds who have their lives in front of them. No sport or game is important enough to risk their lives. A player needs to learn to wrap up a tackle, not just hit someone in the head to knock them out.
Brian,
I agree we got outplayed. tOSU has a great team with a really outstanding quarterback. But I don't think it would be hopeless to think that U of M could beat them. However, unless several things fall right I agree about the rematch. If LSU beats Arkansas which beats Florida (possible) and ND beats USC (unlikely) there might be a rematch. But it has been a great year and you have helped make it so for me. Thanks!
I think that game was close. Sure they have the two unforced turnovers, but someone still have to recover the fumbles. Just like we forgot to contain the middle: Wells and Pitmann still have to make those plays. These are uncharacteristic mistakes, but the game was still close enough after all these mistakes that Michigan would have had the ball down 4 with 6 minutes to go had Shawn Crable pulled up on that hit. So yeah, it's close.
Having said that, I still feel the same way: No. Rematch. Please.
We didn't get the job done. Period.
Hey Guys,
Not sure if any OSU fans have jumped on here yet, but great game on Saturday. I was there, and I wished every Michigan fan I saw a hardy good luck. In fact, before the game, I was still very apprehensive of a win from my Buckeyes. So I walked into the stadium with a Michi fan and told him, "Hey, if you guys win tonight you better handle business in the NC." And he replied, "What are you talking about, tonight IS the NC." He was right - the two best teams played their hearts out on Saturday. I'm reading all your posts and you crack me up with the FUCKS! I'm a girly-girl chick, but I'm probably more die-hard then any man out there. I can't go to any football parties if there is to be more conversation then just watching the game and yelling at the TV. When Datish gave me a cardiac arrest with his two bad snaps, you could hear FUUUUCK come from our seats too.
Anyway, no rematch. I said it before the season even if it impacted my own team. Take care of business in the Rose Bowl. No team will have a chance against you guys. And Manningham will win the Heisman next year...or Hart.
Brian, I'm not going to disagree that two of OSU's turnovers were unforced, but they led to seven points. Crable's penalty (also wholly unforced) led to seven points. Doesn't that balance things out?
The TV announcers (including Herbstreit) did not think the PI was a bad call. There wasn't a lot of contact, but there was *some*, and O'Neal committed the cardinal sin of not turning to look at the ball. (And of course, that call wouldn't have been necessary if we hadn't been flagged for holding three plays earlier on a somewhat borderline play.)
I just watched the game again on DVR. My thoughts:
1. That was a blatant pick play and should've been flagged. Davie and Herbstreit were being dick smacks. Any Pop Warner kid knows that shit is illegal. Their outside WR slants in and collides with both of our DBs. That's a GODDAMN PICK!
2. Our safeties betrayed us. They were out of position on both big runs and the Ginn TD down the middle. Yards After Mundy, indeed. I'll miss him as much as Pat Massey.
3. The field was a factor. Call it whining if you want, the facts are the facts: OSU was CLEARLY more used to what cuts could and could not be made on that field!. Our guys slipped way more than them. I counted TWELVE crucial slips by Michigan players that negatively affected a play. Many times it was a DB in coverage, or a receiver making a cut to get open, or a DL slipping before getting to Smith. Henne's first sack effectively killed that drive, because our wide open TE slipped and fell right in the middle of the field, so Henne has to pull the ball down and eat it. Instead of "1st down, Michigan" it was "3rd down and forever."
4. Henne was good, but Troy Smith was great. He was, once again, the reason OSU won The Game.
5. I did not recognize that Michigan defense in any way, shape, or form. Zero swagger or attitude until the 3rd quarter. Mis-tackles like I'd never seen this season. English using idiotic soft coverages and allowing slot receivers to be COMPLETELY uncovered! WTF???Herrmann's revenge? My opinion of English took it's first, hard body blow. He was terrible in this game.
5. So yeah, OSU outcoached Michigan. BUT, that is more meant as a compliment of the excellence of Tressel and his staff than to say our coaches aren't good. I mean, I must admit that some of those OSU play calls were pretty f'ing brilliant.
6. If Crable doesn't get that personal foul, I think Michigan marches down and takes the lead. But then, I also think that Troy Smith drives down the field in the last 2 minutes and scores the game winner.
7. Tressel is 2-1 against Michigan. Troy Smith is 3-0. He's that much of a difference-maker.
woman Buckeye fan,
I am embarrassed to hear your stories of Michigan Stadium. In the games I've been there, I've only seen one instance get out of hand, and the guy pretty much brought it on himself by throwing a plastic square into an uninvolved fan's head.
Regarding Crable's hit and penalty, I just want to be clear that I don't think anyone here thinks the flag was undeserved. We are lamenting the fact that Crable was foolish enough to hit Smith in the head. Clearly, the penalty was the appropriate call.
Brian:
"Unless you think Michigan has its own mystical Sith crap going on, those were complete flukes that only serve to disguise how close the game actually was: not very."
If the fumbles were flukes (and should therefore be erased from consideration?) what else about the game wasn't a fluke? Overthrow of Manningham? Fluke. Crable hitting Smith OB? Fluke. Wells' and Pittman's runs? Flukes.
By my count, we won 56-0! Yay!
The possibility that the Glendale Bowl could be a rematch should not enter into anybody's calculations. If, when all the regular-season and conference championship game smoke clears, Michigan is still considered the #2 team in the country, they will (and *should*) get the other slot in the NCG. To me, whether Michigan ends up #2 is all about what USC does against fND and UCLA.
Ponder this: put any of the other contenders on the field against what aOSU did Saturday evening. What do you think the final score would have been?
Carc: how many points is a first and ten from the opposition 33 worth? Especially given their offense the rest of the night? Also, Crable's penalty led to a touchdown but without it OSU had a makeable field goal atempt.
And Daniel, there's a big difference betweem overthrowing a bomb or getting a long touchdown run and watching Smith fumble snaps. I mean... right?
Well, at least the "desperate level to win" on the bowl can be a 1 now... too many 10s, unless every game is a 10, which defeats the purpose.
"Also, Crable's penalty led to a touchdown but without it OSU had a makeable field goal atempt. "
but Brian, if they score a field goal instead of a TD, we win by 1
I must admit that some of those OSU play calls were pretty f'ing brilliant.
************************************
I know right!!!! 2/3 of those plays I didn't even see until this game. Tressel can get surgical with a playbook. I liked Michigan's reverse on the 10 yard line myself. That was ballsy...
Brian - thanks for another fantastic year of posting; yours is by far the best UM website on the net.
Just made a donation - hope others who appreciate this site as much as I do will also chip in to help you recover your 3 weeks rent money. For all the hard work you put in on this website, the least us avid mgoblog readers can do is get together to sponsor your trip to OSU, ill-fated or not.
Someone explain this phenomenon to me:
How is it POSSIBLE to discount turnovers as flukes and "gimmes"?
Turnovers are one of two things:
1) A mistake by the team turning over the ball
2) A good play by team forcing the turnover
I have never seen it any other way. To say OSU would have blown us away without the turnovers, is like saying we would have crushed them had we not let them score any points.
Well no sh!t... but they DID turn the ball over, and it's their fault, not a fluke. It counts people... it counts.
When the ball sailed out of Troy Smith's hands... that was a fluke? The fact that he was already moving out of the pocket rather than waiting for the ball is a strange coincidence? Not Troy Smith's fault?
I don't get it.
It was a good game and a great effort by your boys. The whole rematch argument is really challenging. Personally, I think the only teams that can be kept in consideration are USC, Florida and Arkansas (in that order). Clearly, Michigan is a great team and can make a claim to 2nd best in the country. However, USC, UF and Ark haven't played OSU yet and it's hard to argue that they don't deserve the shot. If USC were to win out, you can't argue against them. Their schedule is far tougher than any of the 5 options remaining. Plus, they could argue that they're a better team now than they were VS. Oregon State, by virtue of having several new starters settling in. Arkansas can make the same argument and their schedule is probably the second toughest.
Personally, I just don't see how Michigan and, obviously, Notre Dame have a real shot at the big game. Unless, that is, the other teams take on a second loss.
I hear the whole neutral field argument, but that doesn't carry a lot of weight with me. I think the better team (and, the National Champion-caliber team) wins regardless of where a game is played. Texas did it last year.
And I agree with Brian's assessment that the game wasn't that close. OSU essentially abandoned the passing game in the second half in favor of running out the clock. I never saw a point when UM seemed to dominate their offense. And the OSU defense, while unspectacular, held its own pretty well and definitely aided UM's late touchdown drive by playing prevent (plus, the two turnovers deep in their own territory).
It just seems like any Championship game b/w OSU and UM will have already been played, doesn't it?
Anon, would have been tied, not up by 1 b/c we wouldn't have gone for 2.
SoJ just reminded me. I, for one, am really, really going to miss Steve Breaston.
Brian:
"And Daniel, there's a big difference betweem overthrowing a bomb or getting a long touchdown run and watching Smith fumble snaps. I mean... right?"
Sure there is. But why does it matter? Ultimately, mistakes in execution, whether of the Doh! variety (fumbling a snap, hitting an out-of-bounds QB) or of the "aw shucks" variety (missing a wide open wideout) are part of the game. Going back through and imagining what the score would have looked like sans errors seems like a useless exercise.
Ultimately, we made more than they did, and I accept that. But I refuse to accept that our mistakes should matter and that their mistakes don't mean a damn thing in the final calculus. They made a choice to work out of the shotgun, and along with that comes the increased risk of an errant or fumbled snap. It wasn't a fluke - anymore than our decision to stuff the box on third and one was a fluke.
Coming from an OSU fan that enjoys reading comments on both sides of the field, I could relate to everything in your post. I watched the first quarter of the game at three of the larger tailgates along Lane Avenue and gave up when the girls we were with couldn't see over the heads of the people in front of us. I spent the rest of the game watching it with my friend's younger sister and her friends.
A dozen 19 year old girls yipping away, no commentary from the game audible, heads in front of the TV, people playing beer pong in the background (who plays beer pong during the OSU Michigan game?!).
But what I did want to say is that I always felt Michigan was a threat the entire game. Even at the half up two scores my friend turned to me and said "we have this thing won" I looked at him like he just jinxed it. I knew Michigan would be in it for the full 4 quarters.
Obviously biased but agreed on the pass interference call, gift wrapped turnovers (who was Datish snapping that ball to? I wanted to rip my hair out). Great game, though. Lets hope for an equally exciting rematch next year!
This game was murder to watch becuase it was so easy to see coming, as soon as Harrison(?) went down on the first drive it became Sears and Stewart time, and I was already preparing to kill myself.
Our lack of any talented depth in the secondary was horribly exposed, as well as the fact that our coaching staff is simply not as good as OSU's (Tressel owns Carr jokes aside) it appeared they were completely unprepared for a 4 or 5 WR set. (Chris Graham on Antonio Gonzalez seems like a great matchup!) After adjustments at halftime Michigan outplayed Ohio State in my opinion. It's easy to say the fumbles were fluke plays, but considering they were both Troy Smith's fault (the first one went right off his hands and he could have fallen on the 2nd rather than trying to pick it up) I don't think you can merely ignore them and say they don't count.
I believe if the teams played 10 times on a neutral field both would win about 5, and if USC, Florida and Arkansas all lose I think Michigan will go to and win the national championship.
Of course they won't all lose, and I do feel Ohio State will beat whichever one of them makes it, so here's to winning the Rose Bowl and finishing ranked #2 in the country.
Brian,
How much did you spend on your ticket? The lowest single I could find was $500 and I only brought $400. With my newfound wealth, I did upgrade to the supersized value meal on the way home.
Yeah, the field was in ridiculously poor shape, but it was the same for both teams.
Plus, how many years did we catch breaks at home because teams kept slipping on our POS sod? I don't think you can complain too much about the field.
Apparently I got Harrison and Barringer confused, but whichever DB went down on the first drive is who I'm talking about.
One last post, who do we blame for not giving Hart the ball more? Debord? Carr? It seemed we were ready to take over the game in the 2nd half behind a pounding ground attack, and the next thing I know they're throwing the ball on third and short.
Brian,
Corrections:
3 of our points were off of the INT, which was caused by good defense.
If Crable doesn't get that penalty it's 4 and 15 from the 38. That's a 55-56 yard FG attempt. With a 4-point lead, there's no way in hell Tressel tries that shit. No, the Bucks try to coffin corner the punt and make us drive the whole field.
I agree OSU is the better team on Saturday, but so was Miami in 2002. One McGahee blown knee later, OSU wins the MNC. What's to say we don't knock Troy Smith out of the game on 1/8/07? I'm telling you, Michigan is close enough to OSU that any number of things could've changed the outcome of that game.
Re: the turnovers, I think we got some points that we may not have otherwise.
The INT was forced and came on 3rd & 9 from the OSU 19 and resulted in a Mich FG. That would have been an OSU punt.
The high snap that was mishandled by Smith was on a 2nd & 5 from the OSU 25 and resulted in a Mich TD. Who knows what would have happened on that OSU drive (they punted on their previous drive)? While the snap was high, Smith could and should have handled it. We didn't force it; it was a gift; but it was an execution error by Smith rather than just dumb luck.
The third TO was the bad snap on 3rd and 1 from the Mich 29 and resulted in a 3 and out. Smith drove OSU for a TD on the resulting posession. Looked like the poor field conditions may have had an effect on the snap; so we had some slips and they had a TO. We both played on a bad field and it effected both teams. No excuses.
Given that Mich played pretty well in the 2nd half, I'm inclined to believe that the score would have been different without the three TOs, but not that different (a 10 point game that was closer than the score indicated? I dunno).
Plus, shouldn't Michigan deserve some credit for not turning the ball over on that field in a hostile environment?
At the end of the day, the question is: who is the No. 2 team in the country? not does Michigan deserve a rematch?
I think Mich is the No. 2 team in the country, but maybe I'm wrong. I think they should be voted as such.
I don't think Mich deserves a rematch. It is not so much that it is unfair to OSU, although I see that argument, but that it cheapens this game.
I'm all for changing the BCS formula next year, but this is the system we have. Poll voters shouldn't try to change it.
While all the postulating continues on #2/not #2, I went back and watched Lloyd's press conference.
And I'm debating whether or not I'm glad to see that the man who leads this program with heart and class was exposed ever so slightly to the media on Saturday. For one, I'm a belief in free market economics, and it'll be a shame to see those "Fire Lloyd Carr" blogs go out of business now.
At this point, I'm exuding blatant sarcasm and will promptly stop. To see Mr. Carr handle, probably, the most difficult weekend of his life in such a way embodies what we all desire for this Michigan program to be, now and always. I don't ask, these days, whether or not Lloyd is "out-coached" in big games such as these, because coaching at the collegiate level extends far, far beyond the playing field. We've heard far too many stories where players are kicked to the curb, simply because coaches don't have the time nor courage to act as a mentor and friend. Lloyd -- well, he's not perfect, but he sure does seem to try his hardest.
Yeah, that's all...
While all the postulating continues on #2/not #2, I went back and watched Lloyd's press conference.
And I'm debating whether or not I'm glad to see that the man who leads this program with heart and class was exposed ever so slightly to the media on Saturday. For one, I'm a belief in free market economics, and it'll be a shame to see those "Fire Lloyd Carr" blogs go out of business now.
At this point, I'm exuding blatant sarcasm and will promptly stop. To see Mr. Carr handle, probably, the most difficult weekend of his life in such a way embodies what we all desire for this Michigan program to be, now and always. I don't ask, these days, whether or not Lloyd is "out-coached" in big games such as these, because coaching at the collegiate level extends far, far beyond the playing field. We've heard far too many stories where players are kicked to the curb, simply because coaches don't have the time nor courage to act as a mentor and friend. Lloyd -- well, he's not perfect, but he sure does seem to try his hardest.
Yeah, that's all...
One thing no one's mentioned too is that OSU did an excellent job of keeping the ball out of Breaston's hands on punts and kickoffs. They effectively neutralized any return threat.
A fluke should be counted as something that is outside the norm of expected results. Henne missing wide open receivers versus a center with an injured hand making a bad snap? What's the real difference there? It's difficult to quantitize. Two long gains (+30) against a defense that hadn't had one the entire year? That makes the odds of one exceptionally low, let alone two, doesn't it? The secondary had been B+ all year and suddenly looked totally unskilled. I would expect a drop off, but a complete disappearing act? It was like last year all over again.
The our tackling were the big difference maker in this year's game. Smith's accuracy and YPA are basically the same, but we afforded way too many yards after the catch and yards after contact. But what the hell? The difference this year was the discipline!
This is maddening. I can't believe I'm even doing this. Please make it stop.
Kind agree with re-Run. The OSU title game opponent should be, in order:
1st: 1-loss USC
2nd: 1-loss SEC team
3rd: Michigan
*tackling was
stupid sentence partial editing
Four other points:
1)I happen to recall Branch lining up over Datish and giving him hell during the period when the really bad snap happened. So, that turnover may not be totally without provocation from Michigan’s defense. The first one was as much Troy Smith’s fault as missing Manningham wide open in the 1st Q was Henne’s fault.
2)I have not watched the game on TV yet, but I don’t recall seeing many (if any) play-action passes on 1st down. I would like to have seen more play-action on first down and more Hart runs on 2nd down. A flea-flicker would have also been nice to see at some point on 1st down.
3)Having OSU score so much, thus resulting it what seemed like a 20 kick-offs with only 1 or 2 chances for Breaston to return the ball was killing me. Absolutely killing me.
4)I mentioned it earlier, but Michigan choosing to punt again rather than go for it on 4th down after the OSU penalty is slowly using more and more of my background mental capacity. That is not a good thing.
The OSU and UM game on Saturday was a good game...but it was not a "great" game as people are making it out to be. Michigan was down for almost the entire game -usually by more than a touchdown. It wasn't like a back-and-forth battle. OSU proved to be the better team and UM didn't convince that they are the #2 team in the country. Now Michigan may be the #2 team in the country but if USC wins out they will be going to the NC. Here is my argument for why there SHOULD NOT be a rematch -even if USC loses.
1. It's not fair to Ohio State. If Michigan wins the rematch will they play another game for best of 3? If there were only 2 loss teams out there, I could see a more valid argument, but it appears as if Saturday's game meant nothing if they are simply going to play again. They might as well have played their second teams and decided to simply keep it a close game. Which brings me to my #2 point.
2. It goes away from a playoff system, which seems to be the concensus on the most fair system. Since we don't have playoffs, we should count on the winners of the conferences to work it out. Who's to say OSU and UM are the 2 best teams? They've played in a very weak conference and OSU didn't even play Wisconsin. They need to play either the winner of the SEC, USC or Notre Dame in my opinion -or even the winner of the Big East if it comes to that, which it won't. Michigan had their chance. They lost. What makes them so special to deserve a double elimination game against the same team? Point 3 is related to the playoff system.
3. The argument that the 'supposed' 2 best teams should play each other in the NC is invalid, if we are thinking in terms of an objective, playoff system. Sinc UM lost to the #1 team, they shouldn't get another chance. In College Basketball, many times the 2 best teams meet in the final four. Now the loser dosen't get to play again in the championship game even if they are considered the 2nd best team -the winner of the other final four game does. I know there's a huge difference in C. football, but without a proper playoff sytem, I see this as fair reasoning.
4. It is completely unfair to the other confernces and this year, specifically, to Florida, Notre Dame, and Arkansas (and perhaps WV or Louiville.) You're going to tell me that the winner of the SEC shouldn't get the shot in the NC after Michigan lost -assuming USC loses??! And if somehow USC wins out and Michigan is still #2 in the BCS that USC is going to be shut out. USC had the toughest schedule in the country! The PAC10 and SEC are the toughest conferences. The Big East is stronger than the Big Ten. Not to mention Notre Dame. As for Dame, why did they play the rest of their games after the Michigan loss...to see themselves maybe win out, beat USC and then not get a shot at Ohio State after Michigan lost? I Understand Michigan handled the Irish earlier this year -but it was at the beginning of the year. Notre Dame has had a tougher schedule -may
-maybe not the toughest- but better than Michigan. If Notre Dame finds themselves in the #2-3 fight, I say Michigan had their chance. Let Notre Dame have theirs.
5. My fifth point is simply Ball State. It's more subjective but it bugs me that Michian got away from any crtiticism (and Ohio State struggling to Illinois.) Michigan struggled againt Ball State- a 3-7 team. Now USC, Florida and Notre Dame have struggled with less-than-great teams...but Ball State? That alone should be the clincher for them not deserving a 2nd chance.
The sad thing is, I can't see anyone else taking the #2 spot except for USC. of course this isn't sad for me..but if USC happens to lose, I stll don't want Michigan in there. Maybe If Notre Dame beats USC by a large margin? Arkansas has to count on USC beating Dame and losing to UCLA and them taking care of Florida to have a chance. Florida simply has to beat Arkansas. Problem is, It doesn't seem any other team -beside USC- will be able to jump Michigan even if these teams accomplish this- given the current BCS numbers.
To finish my dissertation, it should be mentioned than I'm actually a fan of Michigan. I loathe Ohio State -more than any other team. I wanted Michigan to win. But they had their chance. They failed. Let another deserving team have an opportunity.
Yeah, lets put this "oh three fluke turovers kept the games close" stuff to rest. They happened and they are what they are. As somebody pointed out we never turned the ballover against a team that had 21 ints to date. And lets put that "garbage time TD" shit also to rest.
It was a close game that was lost when we failed to get the full out those three TOs. That score by osu just before the half was the deal breaker. Kudos to them for that.
Dude, did you just rip that shit from CFN's MAtt Zemek, your first para seems right out of Zemek's BS.
Who the $%^& cares how our game compares to that played by Texas and USC last year.
Brian,
Watched the game with a house full of ND fans who were pulling as hard for the maize and blue as any Michigan alums (for real).
Tough loss by a great team to a greater team.
I don't know what to make of the mess of one-loss teams, but there's still quite a bit of footbaw (in Bob Davie-speak) to be played yet. I have a feeling it's going to work out in a way that makes some sense.
Hal
Brian,
I was at the game too and you discribe it very well. I felt very hollow inside when it was over. tOSU fan was actually pretty cool vs. what I expected. I wore a gray Michigan sweatshirt so you had to see me from the front to know wheather to throw a battery at me or not. NO REMATCH! I have many reason's but won't list them here. Let's move on to the Rose Bowl.
I just have an issue with this statement:
"I Understand Michigan handled the Irish earlier this year -but it was at the beginning of the year."
Sure, but Notre Dame did not miss anyone significantly in that game (see: McFadden), did not get any better over the course of the year (see: Arkansas), and did not improve on their biggest weakness (see: Casey Dick).
That argument ("but it was a long time ago") is only valid when the team changes significantly over the course of the year. The Irish team that may line up in Glendale is the same team we saw in South Bend (and potentially the same team we saw in last year's Fiesta Bowl).
It's certainly not a given that ND loses to USC, that USC beats UCLA (fyi - UCLS crushed Oregon St. 25-7). Neither is it a guarantee that Florida wins out (with FSU - I'm sure they will play their best game of the year, and their championship game). Also, Arkansas may not win out -- LSU and the championship game with FL.
I'm betting USC loses one of their two final games this year. I also think that Florida will lose in the championship game to Arkansas. So what does Arkansas do against LSU???? If Arkansas wins out, I think Michigan will still be ranked two. GO ND!!! GO FSU!!! GO ARKANSAS!!! and GO LSU!!!. Lot's of if's but any combination of those teams winning/losing decides our fate. The computers are a lock in my mind because they likely won't change too much with our only loss to the number 1 team. What the humans do will determine where we fall.
I'm still amazed at the "what's fair?" question. That's a very good question to ask regarding whether the current BCS system should be modified. The current BCS question does not ask that. (Incidentally, I do think it is "unfair" to OSU, but that is moot).
It asks pollsters to rank 25 teams in ordr of superiority. If voters (or us fans) think that USC or Florida or Arkansas or Notre Dame is now the second best team in the country, great.
There are always disagreements on where teams should be ranked. I think Michigan is the second best team in the country. But I could be wrong. Let that, what is intended, be the debate, rather than what is unintended.
I don't want Coaches and Harris poll voters nominating themselves to a "national champiosnhip selection committee" when that is not their mandate (and when the BCS' stated mandate is to identify the top two teams in the country), but I have no illusions that voters will stick to their mandates.
The AP felt this pressure before the year and bowed out. I respect that. I don't respect pollsters changing the question they're supposed to answer.
One more point. All this turf crap. It's not about whether the turf was affecting both teams, it's about the fact that the turf hurts the defenses more. In a game, where Michigan is considered to have an edge with their d-fence, it hurts us proportionately more. A game in Arizona will prove that the turf was a factor in the large score.
Brian- I do not have enough words to thank you. You have taught this old broad a lot about football this season. You speak eloquently and have the passion for michigan football that I have & that I desire for my husband. (Other than that he is the perfect man).
This site is great. I also visit the m-zone & those guys are whiny and the people that post are peckers. Very mean people. Football is totally lost to pissing contests.
This team is amazing. I DO heart hart (and have the shirt). I wish there was a way that I could thank them too. I don't know if there will be a rematch nor if I want one. Wherever we play in January I sure hope we open a can on them.
Coach Carr is amazing. He handled all of this with grace & dignity. Whoever wants him fired should be ashamed of themselves. He took a 7-5 yeam and turned them into a machine. No other coach could do that, I don't care who you are.
Thanks again, Brian.
Go Blue!
How huge was Barringer going down during the first drive? You think our safeties are not even pictured during those disgusting runs if he's in there. Goes back to the lack of depth in the secondary -- but I wouldve loved to play that game with Willis.
What I got from the game:
1. Manningham's killer double move opens him up on the fly... the infamous overthrow. He catches this ball and it changes everything. Momentum. How hard is it to overthrow him? He's wicked fast and one of the smoothest athletes i've ever seen. Any other time he catches this pass, which brings me to my next point...
2. THE FIELD FUCKING SUCKED
I'm sure he was slowed at least a few steps by the marsh... the same goes for Ginn's possible TD bomb, but as mentioned above, the field seemed to affect Michigan's play more.
3. Breaston slips on his 4th and 10 catch a few yards short. Trying to juke his man, he bites it instead. Any other playing surface besides the Pripyat Marshes, and he makes a fool of the DB and goes for 20.
4. Crable is good but stupid
Why lord why did you have to put the rage in this man so that he would contact troy smith in such a manner? How could you miss the backfield tackle like that? Also, Hall's missed shot hurt us.
5. Troy smith is hella good. Like, he is Mr. Roboto. God why, why couldn't you have put this back in an era where segragation was the norm and justin zwick was the man based solely on skin color? Another point, he beat us with his arm, not his legs.
6. Mike Hart is a grinder. He's real good. I thought he showed decent speed this game, not breakaway speed by any means but also not caught from behind after 9 yards either. One play in particular comes to mind where he was running from a corner, if i remember correctly.
7. Our secondary did not perform so well, but what was one to expect? We match up against 5+ good pass-catchers and they're bound to find a weakness somewhere, especially with Mr. Roboto at the helm.
I appreciated this game. I am emotionally destroyed and a little hoarse for yelling fuck at the TV for the entire first half. It was a great one.
Watching the game alone is a completely different experience. A group of my friends came over, all michigan fans but there were 3 girls. One other guy. He's a U of M fan, and one of the girls is too, she understands me, but they DON'T STOP TALKING ABOUT WORTHLESS SHIT!!! Ahhh your words about who did what on what show last week burn my ears! Quiet down. And so i crush my football with frustration.
My new hero is Chad Henne. Henne for Heisman next year! He doesn't steal the limelight, he's reticent and absolutely nerveless!
Granted he's not perfect. But I am excited about seeing him next year tearing defenses.
To see Mr. Carr handle, probably, the most difficult weekend of his life in such a way embodies what we all desire for this Michigan program to be, now and always. I don't ask, these days, whether or not Lloyd is "out-coached" in big games such as these, because coaching at the collegiate level extends far, far beyond the playing field. We've heard far too many stories where players are kicked to the curb, simply because coaches don't have the time nor courage to act as a mentor and friend. Lloyd -- well, he's not perfect, but he sure does seem to try his hardest.
**************************************
Very well said, m@.
There were some comments above about ND and USC strength of schedule. Here are some relevant details from collegebcs.com, which I believe uses the old formula the BCS used for SOS. The top 6 schools are Pac 10. Interesting...
2. USC
13. Michigan
17. Louisville
20. Florida
34. Notre Dame
36. Ohio State
53. West Virginia
60. Arkansas
111. Boise State
Notre Dame and Florida will certainly move up in terms of schedule strength in the coming weeks, but they also have to, like, play football and stuff. I think USC's wins against an allegedly tough Pac 10 and a top 10 Arkansas balance nicely against Michigan's tough schedule and wins over top 10 Wisc and ND. The tiebreaker for now is USC's loss to a near-top 25 Oregon State team vs. UM's loss to OSU. A USC win over ND likely pushes things in their favor.
We have either 7 weeks before a potential rematch with OSU or 6 weeks before the Rose Bowl. While this may seem like a completely ridiculous idea, maybe it wouldn't hurt to start having a few of our offensive players practicing at DB. Carlos Brown, Doug Dutch, and Carl Tabb are all speedy players gathering dust on the offensive side of the ball. For whatever reason, they have little chance of playing on offense in the bowl game. Maybe it's time to give them a crash course on playing defense. Could they possibly be worse than Sears or Stewart? Would they have been that much worse covering Gonzo than Chris Graham? After all, they all robably played some defensive back in high school.
Seriously, whether we deserve it or not, we may be facing a rematch with the Buckeyes. They'll probably make note of the fact that their 4 and 5 receiver sets were pretty effective against us. We need all the help we can get in the defensive backfield, even if it just means having a few more fresh players to rotate in.
Personally, I'm not a huge fan of binning errors that happened during a game and then mentally revising the score. It strays a bit too far into BWI territory for me. Anthony Thomas fumbled against Northwestern. Chad Henne crossed the goal line against ND. Ecker should have pitched the ball. Players and refs screw up and I don't get too worked up about it when it's beneficial or detrimental to Michigan.
That being said, Brian has been consistent with this all year and I respect his opinion, though I don't always agree with it.
Also, FWIW, the regents approved the latest models for the Big House renovation. Seems like they actually listened to input since the diag-esque "M"s are gone and they improved the turrets at either end of the boxes.
Did anybody else notice that aOSU's PSA featured 'Welding Engineering' at the beginning?
My thoughts are probably reflected above (it's amazing how posts go up on this board so quickly), but I haven't read them all.
First, on the nat'l championship game -- I could accept USC or, possibly, Florida going ahead of us -- not Arkansas (50-14 is still 50-14) or ND.
Second, although the game had flukey moments on both sides, Ohio State did have the edge on both sides of the ball most of the night (although Michigan's first drives of both halves suggested that when we got in rhythm we could control the game). That doesn't mean we couldn't have won the game with a couple of more breaks, but that the OSU did deserve to win and outplayed us by more than 3 points.
the other guy,
You make a number of good points but also some questionable ones.
1. I agree that USC probably deserves to go if they win out.
2. I don't agree that the PAC10 is a tough conference - where did that come from?
3. Unfair to OSU? To some degree, yes but OSU did get a Big10 title - apparently that's meaningless now. Plus they are in - UM has to wait and see. I don't think anyone would play their reserves (that is a meritless statement).
4. There is precent for a rematch where winner takes all (FLA 1996). Fla St didn't get even a conference title out of that one.
5. No team that gets omitted really has a right to complain since they all lost a game. ND certainly should not get an invite over UM. USC has a solid argument but they have not been stellar (many close calls to weak teams) and lost to a marginal PAC10 foe. Again, if USC wins out, I would give them the nod to avoid a rematch but b/c I feel they are just as deserving. Fla has a tough schedule but they are not without faults.
6. Since when has the BCS been about fairness?
Personally, I'm not a huge fan of binning errors that happened during a game and then mentally revising the score. It strays a bit too far into BWI territory for me. Anthony Thomas fumbled against Northwestern. Chad Henne crossed the goal line against ND. Ecker should have pitched the ball. Players and refs screw up and I don't get too worked up about it when it's beneficial or detrimental to Michigan.
That being said, Brian has been consistent with this all year and I respect his opinion, though I don't always agree with it.
I do that sort of thing because I try to figure out what's likely to recur and what isn't. Football's an odd game where one play can vastly alter the fortunes of a team; the final score is often not entirely reflective of the game that's played on the field.
I was probably a little harsh, but I think we were on the good end of the luck in this game and still came up short. The yardage reflects that.
Also: when did Willis Barringer become the key to our run defense? I'll have to check the tape but I was terrified when I saw someone on the ground and relieved when it was him -- no offense, Willis, but we have four okay safeties.
If the game was to be held at OSU stadium again... your right, someone else should be able to have their shot at them on their turf. But the MNC game is to pit the two best teams against each other, not "give someone else a shot who hasn't faced 'em." I don't care what anyone else says, there is no other team in the nation, OSU aside, that has a resume even close to ours. USC might be close, with a 36 point pummeling of Arkansas... but they lost to OSU, Oregon State that is. Unranked Oregon State. Florida failed to score against middle of the road Auburn. ND? The team we crushed by 26 at South Bend? It all boils down to the fact that we man handled everyone else that came at us, aside from the number 1 team in the nation, in their house, and came up 3 points short. No other team can touch that...except Boise State :-P
I think Michigan is the second best team in the nation, and if you put them in a neutral stadium, with quasi decent turf... I think we get the same close game with the possibility of it going the other way.
As for the "cosmetic TD"... We could of easily had those 7 points on a number of occasions earlier in the game, such as the barely over thrown MM pass, thus I would say that the ending TD gave a better representation of how the whole game was played... cause it was a dog fight to the end.
Also: am I crazy or was the Crable thing at the 28? I thought they had a first and ten at the thirteen after the penalty. If I'm remembering incorrectly than, yes, that would have made the game way different.
Rematch? Damn right I want one. Why, because we are Michigan and they are Ohio State. We should never, ever back down from a chance to play them.
When you take snaps out of the shotgun, you're accepting a risk because you think it gives you an advantage on that play. Ohio State spent the whole game in the shotgun and reaped the rewards. It stands to reason that they'd get burned by it a few times, too.
A few thoughts:
1) Gene - write him off, but only on Saturdays in the Fall. He's a tool, sure enough, but it's ignorance, not ill will.
2) I watched with a bunch of mildly interested people and a 2 year old (not mine) at a friends house. I had to temper my fuuuucckkkk's so ended up throwing my hat and denting some drywall. Felt bad, but who lets a two year old over to run around and act cute during a game like that? I'll know better for next time.
3) Brian - kinda felt the same way you did. I think given the rest of the season, our defense blew it, we seemed to abandon the running game in the first half, Henne had a number of bad passes, and generally, we got outplayed. Wish I didn't feel that way, but when I started watching the coverage post game, I wondered if they saw the same game I did.
4) If I have to hear how Tressel owns Carr one more time, I'm going to punch someone in the neck.
feh. Here's to hoping we run the table next year.
Come on, guys.
Complaining about the TURF???
Complaining about where you "easily could've had 7 points here and there and there and there..."
Even I know you're above resorting to those kinds of excuses.
Brian, great post. You're one of the best writers on the web. I think your assessment of the two teams is more accurate than many want to admit. OSU was the better team, and a rematch is the wrong way to go. Let's go to the Rose Bowl and enjoy it. The team was 11-1. OSU is the top program in college football today, and we can like it or not.
If we win the Rose we will finish number 2 and there isn't much to complain about in that. Although, I wouldn't back down from a rematch.
I forgot the Big 12 is locked into the fiesta because I would like to play Texas again but not if they have 3 losses.
Brian,
My, my, how this thread has grown in just hours. Again, thank you for making this available to us, despite the unwelcome louts who wouldn't know cheese from chalk even after having tasted them. I hear an echo of my sentiments in your call for DB recruiting, though I would point out that while English has been key to our recruiting, this is his first year as defensive coordinator. What plucky, ambitious defensive talent wouldn't want to throw his odds in with English at this point?
I pray that this is the beginning of a new era for us, and I pray that this year's performance will enhance recruiting like nothing since '97 and dreams of Woodson successors. My 40-odd years of fandom resonate in the bones and whisper that, indeed, it is, and will. Let's be patient, and hopeful.
Carr is a magnificent specimen of the old-school gentleman: wise and reluctantly forward-looking. I was calling for his head a year ago, though in retrospect it was just the waft of Malone and Herrmann that made the nose twitch. My god, what pleasure he, and they, have given us this year. (I am really looking forward to the Bowl result - one of our traditional and seemingly genetic weaknesses - as a barometer of what's to come.) This looks to deeply and strangely to me like OSU last year, for reasons too deep and strange to go into here. Let's just say that I see affinities and connections (I've been reading and rereading DeLillo lately, so who's to tell?).
I didn't expect a national championship this year, though I did dream of one. 11-1, 11-2? A horseload better than 7-5, with blown 4th quarter leads, in my book. Given Saturday's results (39 points in Columbus in the most hyped game in recent memory), how can we be anything but optimistic?
Again, thanks and good luck and godspeed in the future. Please know that should you go on to bigger and better things, I will follow you.
Go Blue and may Bo Rest In Peace.
P.S. While I admire your liberal and democratic tendencies in maintaining these threads, as an old fart of the old-fart school I would appreciate greater editorial rigor in keeping the barely literate rants of the young, ill-mannered and ill-educated to an acceptable minimum. For the benefit of us old, young at Hart, farts.
)2 part comment)
Brian, I love your blog, it's my first stop on the internet every day. I've lived and died with it all season, and I want to thank you for all the hard work.
But I disagree with nearly everything you've written today. I really think you're falling into this trap of OSU was so great that whenever something went wrong for them it couldn't possibly have been us that caused it. Does everybody realize that at the beginning of the 4th quarter it was a 4 point game? We outscored OSU in the second half, it's not like we were dominated at any point after halftime. I think that everybody is jaded based on the fact that we were down by 11 late, but rallied to cut the lead. What exactly are we supposed to do in that situation? Give up and call it a day, or keep fighting and try to win? I sure as hell know that OSU was trying to stop us. So the late TD wasn't cosmetic, it was f-ing earned. I think this game, more than anything, was a tale of two halves, and a tale of which team's mistakes cost them more.
They absolutely kicked the shit out of us in the first half. Yet this team showed heart and hunger and fight. We climbed back into that game when we had every reason to pack up shop and say 11-1 was a huge improvement. I really honestly believe we outplayed them in the second half. We made just about all the plays, save for maybe a Smith conversion here and there and the Pittman run. This group of players deserves more than our own fans saying we don't belong on the same field. We made plenty of unforced errors that were just as costly as OSU's. Did they have a couple of bad snaps? Yeah. Did those snaps take points off the board for OSU? No. The biggest mistake I think we made was overthrowing Manningham. That's 6 fewer points on the board for us at the end of the game, and a crucial answer to their first scoring drive. It was an unforced mistake that is arguably as costly (or more) than either of the fumbles. So let's all take off the scarlet and gray colored classes and start looking at the entire damn game.
(part 2/2)
And one other thing I don't understand: All this talk of if we beat them in a rematch it's unfair to OSU. Bullshit. If they're really better than we are, they'll beat us again. I know, they were better than we were on Saturday, but I don't know for sure they'd beat us on a neutral field, and neither does anybody else. Yeah, "it's hard to beat a team twice," or whatever it is the kids are saying these days. But I know that each coaching staff would have the same amount of time to prepare their kids, and each coaching staff would have the benefit having already played the opponent. Truly, if there was a rematch, the better team would win. What if Michigan were to win? Well, then we'd have played the game at a neutral site, and really, that would be the strongest evidence of which team was best. When all other things were equal, preparation time, each team being on the road, playing in front of a split crowd, you really would have to recognize that as the more definitive result.
(Not that I'm saying I favor a rematch, I'm just pointing out where I see flaws in the arguments that are being presented)
Re: Barringer
From what I recall of 2005 in the UFRs and summaries, his was basically "not spectacular, but in position and makes tackles". That doesn't describe any of our other safeties, except maybe Englemon, but I feel like he got the goat more than Barringer.
That said, I remember saying the same thing you did. It could have been worse, we have like 8 safeties with at least some experience, etc.
A rematch would cheapen this game, among many other reasons which have already been expressed.
Count me in the "not as close as the final score indicated" camp, but that should be obvious.
Congrats on a damn good regular season and good luck in the Rose Bowl, guys. Hope you mop the floor with whoever you play.
Not as close as the score? Lets say Crable doesn't make that late hit. We get the ball back with a chance to take the lead with under 5 minutes. I mean really, we were 1 penalty away from having a chance to WIN the game. That play was the ultimate killer, although I suppose everyone knew that. Hell, I was demoralized after that, sitting in the stadium. Can't imagine how the players felt. Eerily reminded me of last year. God I hate fucking losing to Ohio State.
Crable's hit was 3rd and 13 at the 38. It's a legit flag, but that was a punt waiting to happen.
I feel like "not as close as the final score" is reserved for Indiana/PSU in 1995, where two late hail mary passes made a blowout seem close. We had the ball with a chance to tie in the 3rd quarter and with a chance to take the lead in the 4th quarter. If you take out Crable's hit (which had nothing to do with the play itself) we would have had another shot to take a lead. Also, we had an onside kick with plenty of time left that would have given us a chance to win. Of course, we didn't tie, lead, or win, so tOSU was clearly better, but not double digits better. We were in this football game.
I despise those guys and that coach and everyone who acts like it's a real university, but they can play some football. Kudos to them; I think they'll win handily in Glendale. Let's hope Jake Long and Alan Branch stick around so we have a chance to get them next year.
Go Blue.
What class is Jake Long??????????? Jr/SR?????????
Incredibly the question of who we'll play is getting more pub than our win. Silly me thought we'd be able to savor this and not have to worry about who we'll play in two months. From Bob Davie to Kirk Herbstreit to John Saunders, all questioning if there'll be a rematch in Glendale. It's a tired, old ploy for redemption - one that is usually played out in boxing rings. Can't beat your oppenent the first time, you cry for another chance. Ball State didn't cry for one.
But, just what exactly will a rematch prove? The timing would be absolutely horrendous. Ohio State just finished, in every sense of the word, the same team some want us to face again. The next game! And, should Michigan win the rematch suddenly they are rewarded with a national title. Rewarded after getting beat in their last game - a tussle they led for grand total of 6 minutes and were behind by 11 or 14 most of the night.
Now, how ridiculous is that?
Ohio State doesn't need and shouldn't be requested to validate the win in the BCS Championship game. What is this the old PGA Tour Skins Game? The final score wasn't indicative of how thoroughly we controlled this contest. We outgained Michigan by more than 100 yards; more first downs, led time of possession and basically, surgically shredded Michigan's defense. We gift wrapped 2 unforced fumbles, and Michigan enjoyed a 3 to 0 turnover edge and still lost. Not only would a rematch be ridiculous, it would be undeserved. Bring on a worthy #2.
I despise those guys and that coach and everyone who acts like it's a real university, but they can play some football.
I hate to turn this generally genial conversation into something else, but fuck you there, chief. Talk about how you hate the team, any player, or any asshole fans all you want, but I'll thank you for not denigrating a degree that I worked hard for and that got me into law school. Thanks.
SoJ: Long is a senior, but if I'm not mistaken he has another year of eligibility left.
"Incredibly the question of who we'll play is getting more pub than our win..."
This comment reads... familiarly. This is plagiarized from some blog or other.
Ah, there it is:
http://www.buckeyecommentary.com...b4edcf-
628.html
Keith actually posts here. Not nice to cut and paste, marianne.
I was about to write up a post, only to realize that diogenes said everything I wanted to say, and in a more eloquent way than I ever could have. Here, here, my friend - I second the motions.
OSU fans. Congrats on a well-deserved victory. I can empathize with the desire for no rematch; it's almost a no-win situation for OSU; we wouldn't want to play ND or Wisky again (but I wouldn't mind another crack at Ball State). Still, unless your intention is to flame, understand the difference between how "no rematch, please" and "bring on a WORTHY #2" comes across. Those are two very different statements, despite how they are functionally equivalent in the world of BCS-speak. The former is reasonable, the latter incendiary.
Er, Chimarieann... go ahead and savor your victory. If you are truly "worrying," as you say, about who "you'll" play in two months, you're more screwed up in the head than even I - and I tend to worry about some stupid shit (my apologies if, in fact, you are on the team or draw a paycheck from the athletic dept in any way).
Cheers, folks. As Brian would say, the signal-to-noise ratio is getting a little too low around here, so I think I'll sign off for a week or so until the emotion dies down. Take care.
1) I am getting sick of hearing about how close Ball State was.
The game was really not close.
At one point Michigan had over 400 yards to their 84. Michigan's physical domination was so complete that our coaching staff substituted into the three deep from early on. Even after a series of horrific mistakes the third team remained in the lineup.
The irony of the Ball State game is that it exposed our weakness at corner (after the top 3) which Tressel focused much of his game plan around.
2) If OSU loses the championship both OSU and their opponent will have one loss. The CHAMPION will be determined by that neutral site game, not by the regular season result (or will OSU cry if USC beats them that they are still better because USC had a worse loss?).
3) Brian, initially I agreed that Michigan was the lesser team and never was able to gain control in this game (never made the huge stop or huge score which could have flipped the result). But once I emerged from the despair of the loss (long enough to catch my breath) I reevaluated.
I believe the field hurt the ability of both DLs to displace the OL. A rematch on a decent field would look much different along the lines. (note, our OL would look worse too).
There were several huge plays on both sides which would have changed the score.
Fumbles
3rd & long conversions
Injuries (Barringer and Burgess proved to be huge losses as their replacements were undressed in front of 22 million people).
Critical slips (why did this seem to happen to Michigan so much more often?)
Overthrown passes to wide open WRs
Bonehead penalties...
Even conservative playcalls resulted in 2 long scores.
They played a great game at home and looked like the better team, but we were right there.
4) I love your blog. Your opening captured my feelings about watching games so well I made my wife read it.
Chin up, Go Blue
“closer than the score indicates” suggests to me a game the outcome of which wasn’t in doubt. I don’t think any rational person can say the outcome of that game was not in doubt in the second half. Sure, if UM takes the lead it’s easy to assume Smith would simply take it back. Fatalism does not substitute as a rational argument. Michigan could have won that game. In rivalry and championship games winning is all that matters.
What I saw was two offenses that were a step ahead of the defenses. Both defenses were relying on sacks, turnovers, or mistakes to get stops. Could the game have unfolded with UM losing by more? Clearly. That doesn’t mean that it should have. On the road, as the underdog, UM took the number one team’s best punch and came back. OSU won and deserved to win but UM has nothing to hang their heads about.
When Smith was going good he seemed unstoppable. Offense often looks that way. Pitch and catch to the open receiver made super easy when he doesn’t even need to be open. When Smith made mistakes OSU stalled. Make no mistake, the snap he fumbled was his error. On slo motion you can see he looks away and starts to move to his left before he has the ball. He reached back for the ball with his right hand and missed it. I understand thinking Smith is perfect and dismissing his mistakes but that is not reasonable. The INT was also a mistake by him. He should never have thrown that ball. Henne didn’t make a decision that bad all night. Can someone please tell me how many fumbled shot gun snaps you get before it becomes a pattern and not bad luck. OSU did it twice. Monumental bad luck or poor execution?
I think the larger audience came away impressed by how good the OSU offense was but they knew they were good. They were also impressed with Troy Smith but again he’s the Heisman front runner so they knew he was good. What they didn’t know was UM had an offense that could match OSU point for point under those, or any conditions. That is why UM only fell to 2 or 3 in the polls.
I don’t favor a match up. But answer me this. If there is one do you think the line opens higher than 7? Having seen round 1 and knowing round 2 would be on a neutral site, I don’t think Vegas would push the line higher than it started for round 1. That would tell you how the game was viewed by an unbiased but well educated audience.
I have a friend who will not watch Michigan games with me despite my repeated urging, and not for the usual, proper reasons like "you swear like a sailor on meth" or "I'm pretty sure one of these days you are going to flip out and snap someone's neck."
On Saturday my wife told me she's going out of town for New Year's Day because of the screaming she heard from me when Penn State lost four fumbles in the first half against Michigan State.
Add Justin King and Jai Eugene to this team and is the outcome different?
Justin King is Da Man! You hardly ever see him if you watch the game on TV because they almost never throw to the receiver he's blanketing. He's not much for run support, but who cares?
Brian,
So sorry how you're feeling. Love your Web site; I read it every day, and admire your intense knowledge of Big Ten football and college football in general.
As an OSU fan, I was in pain from 1988 to 2000. I hope you now realize how we felt,,,, uh, double that. So sorry man. Know how you feel. Keep up the great Web site. I will continue to check out your great site for the wonderful B11 insight and football humor. Thanks, man.
Few things:
1) Brian, I sent you some $$, thanks for all your great work!
2) Not in favor of a rematch, as others have stated, USC-FLA-ARK winning out should get their shot (but not ND). And I live in Phoenix, gaddammit!!!!
3) If we do somehow end up in Glendale, the winner of THAT game is the MNC. Just like if pro teams meet earlier in the year, it matters naught but who wins the SuperBowl.
4) Could the turf be the reason MM was overthrown, because he couldn't accelerate after juking the defender? Also, was one of OSU's bad snaps due to a "divot?" No excuses, but games should be played in the best conditions possible- we learned our lesson and OSU should switch turf too.
5) Brian, I have been watching OSU games in hermit mode since the early 70's, though a couple of years ago I watched with the Phoenix Alumni and it wasn't so bad.....but I certainly understand. I wish I didn't care so much- first time I ever uttered an explicative in front of my parents was when Lantry missed that first field goal.
Fair enough, "chief," it was a cheap shot. But, I guess I will denigrate your degree if I want to, and you can hate me for it. Sorry, but I heard enough this week (and my whole life) about being a snob, about how Michigan and tOSU are both "great universities," and I have no intention of apologizing for being smarter than the majority of people that went to tOSU. Real professors, real library, real research: Yes. But it's not even close to UofM, and I guess I'm pretty proud too.
My arrogance doesn't make your accomplishments anything less than they are (or mine anything more). It certainly doesn't count for points on the football field. I guess it just makes me arrogant. I'm OK with that.
Chimarieann,
I recall the score being 35-31 for the majority of the 4th quarter with a bailout from Shawn Crable to sustain the last OSU touchdown drive. The fumbles were as much a gift as the non-tackle by Crable on the Wells TD run and the Henne overthrow of Manningham. You are not very good at pretending to be objective.
I agree that OSU played a better game and made fewer key mistakes; the final score reflects this. What I cannot agree with, however, is that Michigan is not a worthy #2. If when things shake out Michigan is still #2 (which they should be if the USC-ND game is even close – save for a Florida revival) then OSU should have no trouble replicating their “dominating” performance of Michigan. The BCS system is what all the schools have signed-up to. The primary goal of the BCS is to pit the best and second best team against one another in a bowl game. As it stands right now, I objectively think that OSU is #1 and Michigan is still #2.
The truth of the matter is that OSU fans do not want a rematch because they understand playing Michigan again GREATLY decreases the odds of an OSU victory in Glendale vs. all the other potential competition. If this was not the case then it would seem that OSU fans would jump at the chance to pound Michigan twice in same season if they truly felt OSU was magnitudes better than Michigan as some of the posts by OSU fans seem to suggest. I sympathize with the OSU fans regarding this, but don’t try to claim the game was not as close as 3 points just to veil apprehension over having to potentially play Michigan again in Glendale.
As I mentioned earlier: Should the Colts not have to face the Patriots in the playoffs because they beat them in the regular season? That game was not nearly as close as the game in Columbus. Maybe the NFL has it all wrong.
Personally, I am not sure I want a rematch because if Michigan were to win in Glendale it might seem a little hallow given the loss in Columbus.
Gene,
You should have written the guy off when he even requested to bring the OSU chick over. And then to give you crap over it!? Buh-bye!
woman Buckeye fan,
Marshmallows? Did they hurt? Anyway sounds like you were sitting in the Student section. That is not a wise idea in any stadium. The difference between Columbus and Ann Arbor is that in Ann Arbor you can sit in peace and watch the game without having objects thrown at you in nearly every section, but the student section. In Columbus there is NOWHERE to sit without having to deal with that crap.
Also, if nobody gives a damn about the whole state of Michigan why even bother to sing the song. It seems to me that everybody in Columbus is OBSESSED with the whole state of Michigan (e.g. I don’t know a song sung to the same tune as the OSU fight song, but with different anti-OSU lyrics).
I don't think a victory over OSU (if it were to occur) would seem hollow. People, it would mean the MNC. What might seem a bit hollow would be a Rose Bowl victory without being the Big 10 champ. Don't get me wrong, I would not be disappointed with the Rose Bowl but I think a MNC can cure that hollow feeling pretty easiliy. Ask Florida if they think their 1996 Championship is hollow.
I don't buy the argument that there shouldn't be a rematch because "Michigan already had its chance." The point of the BCS is not to give various teams a shot at playing OSU. The point is to match up the best teams in the country to play for the national championship.
The only thing Michigan had a chance to do was win all the games on its schedule - had it been able to do that, there's no guesswork and they're playing in AZ. But every other team in the country but for OSU (I don't count Boise State) also had a chance to go undefeated and failed as well. I don't understand why Michigan should be penalized MORE simply because their loss came to Ohio State, as opposed to USC's loss to Oregon State, Florida's loss to Auburn, ND's loss to us, etc. Nothing about this system makes any sense, but the notion that we had our chance and blew it is absurd. We didn't blow it any more than any of the other one-loss teams.
And I'm fully aware that this comment pretty much contradicts what I wrote at the top of this section (those other teams deserve a shot at OSU). My own personal "Upon Further Review," I guess.
Does this really come from Rich Eisen formerly of the Michigan Daily and and ESPN writer?
I agree completely. My biggest complaint about all the other teams that claim to deserve a shot at OSU is that if given the choice, Michigan would have preferred to have their shot at OSU in Arizona rather than Columbus. We didn't have that choice, but come on now a USC team that lost to unranked Oregon State is ranked above us in the human polls and soon in the computers. What is that all about. Either treat Michigan like all the other teams that just played a conference season and assess them on that: wins at ND(5), Wisconsin(9), and at Penn State (25) and the only loss coming on the road against the first ever consensus number 1 in the BCS formula, by 3 points.
I watched the game again in HD with Tivo and got to the third quarter. It was like watching a different game the second time around. I guess I was in a more calm reflective state, i.e. I could hear the announcers and watch the replays because I wasn't jumping up and down and screaming. Michigan made it's own mistakes, but this was really a close game - full of what-ifs. The first OSU TD was a pick play that wasn't called on a 3rd down -- that might've meant four points. The first 50yd run for OSU, blatant hold on Harris near the hole that was never called. We had so many 4th and short it was disgusting. And, watching again I can say Mike Hart was unbelievable and has every right to say, again, "I wasn't impressed with their defense", and "different game if we play again". I can't believe the botched shot-gun snap didn't result in 7 points for us (and that's not exactly a fluke when you go out of shot-gun as much as they had and have a center with a hurt hand). And, Manningham wide open on the second series, more wide open than he has ever been. 1 minute later the announcers started to speculate, that the Henne overthrow on that play might be a result of the poor field conditions throwing off the timing. No kidding, he has never been more wide open, but then again why couldn't we run that play again later. Oh, yeah because they were shoving him on every down. There is no doubt at least in my mind that we could've just as easily won that game as lost. The only thing that was incredibly annoying was that Chris Graham was defending the pass all the time and getting burned. Well, that and we helped them out of several 3rd down situations.
I can guarantee you this. If there is one play that Henne eats at him, it's overthowing Manningham in the second series when he had a 10 yard (no exaggeration) lead on the closed DB.
Fair enough, "chief," it was a cheap shot. But, I guess I will denigrate your degree if I want to, and you can hate me for it. Sorry, but I heard enough this week (and my whole life) about being a snob, about how Michigan and tOSU are both "great universities," and I have no intention of apologizing for being smarter than the majority of people that went to tOSU. Real professors, real library, real research: Yes. But it's not even close to UofM, and I guess I'm pretty proud too.
My arrogance doesn't make your accomplishments anything less than they are (or mine anything more). It certainly doesn't count for points on the football field. I guess it just makes me arrogant. I'm OK with that.
I guess you're living proof that cliches become cliches because there's some truth to them.
As long as you never sit back and wonder why people hate UM fans in general and you in particular, and never claim that it's because of "jealousy," then, hey, sit back and have fun being what you are. In case you haven't noticed in life, people don't tend to like assholes.
The post was so good and said everything I could have wanted to say...yes, copied and pasted from an OSU site that some of you must visit.
It was a great game...great game. Both Teams played thier hearts out. Neither Team was perfect Saturday.
We could go on all day with "If's", but the outcome would be the same.
Consider it a compliment that most OSU fans don't want a rematch. Myself included.
No one knows the potential result of a rematch therefore IMHO, no one should be talking about winning if there was a rematch, the outcome would be different.......
If there is a rematch, and OSU should happen to looose, we would have 2 Teams that only lost to each other. IMHO that would mean a 'co-championship'.
Today is 'Bo Day' even in Buckeye land.
Kurt - I think since the teams in the PAC10 are pretty much in the top 15 in toughest schedules, including the 1-6 spots, shows that it is the best conference -BECAUSE, 8 out of those 10 teams are going to bowls. That's the highest percentage of any other conference. The Big Ten was one of the worst conferences this year. I don't recall hearing anyone this year comparing the BIG10 to the PAC10, SEC or even Big East. OSU, UM, amd Wisc. are all very good teams but beyond that is only crap. Penn State, Iowa, and Purdue records because they played in the BIG10 and scheduled teams like Temple. And I won't even touch Northwestern, Minnesota, Illinois, or Indiana.
I admit Michigan is awesome. Ohio State is the best team in the country. Wisconsin is a top-15 team. The rest suck.
I didn't say that the BCS is fair...that's why I am arguing that Michigan shouldn't go. I except that it is flawed. It is flawed because Michigan is #2 in line right now.
Roudy - not the real Rich Eisen...just a groupie. Sorry for the confusion.
"3) If we do somehow end up in Glendale, the winner of THAT game is the MNC. Just like if pro teams meet earlier in the year, it matters naught but who wins the SuperBowl."
terrible argument. the way college football is now, every game is a playoff game. a rematch would be like saying "well, even though the colts lost in the AFC finals, since they were clearly so awesome the rest of the time, they deserve another crack at it"
except they wouldn't, and you don't. you lost. deal with it.
and here's a question: what if the scores had been reversed? would OSU, then, be allowed to whine for a rematch? hell no. we would've been #1, and blew it. as it stands, you guys were esentially #1a, and YOU blew it. none of this "michigan and OSU are clearly better than everyone else" crap (i seem to remember the same being said about the 2002 Miami team...)
time to give someone else a shot.
Ray Ray,
Having gone to school in Michigan (Adrian College) and growing up in Cleveland, I know what football is to anyone that lives in Ohio.
Friday's and Saturday's stands are full watching high school kids leaving their hearts on the field. Football is so much in Ohio.
Maybe it's because of so many heartbreaks with the Tribe, the whole Browns fiasco, coming so close and the Team moving. Maybe it's the once industrail cities now depressed economically. Ohio football give Ohio something to be proud of....on all levels. Most Ohio natives no mattter where they live (I live in Chicago) are very loyal to our sports Teams regardless of age.
We've been in your shoes many times. We know the pain losses like this hurt. And they do.
I'm happy to see Ohio fans acting more respectfully.
The fact is this rivalry is so great to all of us (US, as in Michigan fans as well), we can't help but get down with a loss. It's not really 'just a game'. It's the best rivalry in the country. That says a lot for both Michigan and OSU fans. Emotions are high and watching any OSU/Michigan game is a roller coaster of emotions. Personally, I was sick just from the closeness of the game.
I don't 'hate' Michigan. I will root for them in the Rose Bowl as they are in the Big 10.
What Ohio and Michigan has in this rivalry is really special. Don't think for a moment other colleges don't want to be either one of us. Both schools have dominated college football.
The absolute best part of this rivalry is it is never really 'settled'. There is always next year.
i think one of my friends summed it up pretty well:
"i feel like its one of those situations from your childhood where you're playing some informal sports against someone and everytime you beat them, they ask for the rematch and then when they finally win they just go crazy about how they are champions of the world and refuse to play again."
basically, if we played for the NC and you guys won, you'd of course act as if you were the outright national champions. which is completely ass-backwards, since we'd have identical records and a 1-1 record against each other.
what i'm getting at is that an OSU/michigan rematch really has a far greater downside than upside (that upside supposedly being that the two "best" teams in America will play). it's not worth it to us, it's not worth it to college football, and it's not worth it to the fans.
the only people who benefit are michigan fans and the media. but the implications of a rematch are just too incredibly lame to justify one.
"Also: when did Willis Barringer become the key to our run defense? I'll have to check the tape but I was terrified when I saw someone on the ground and relieved when it was him -- no offense, Willis, but we have four okay safeties."
Amen to that Brian....NO ONE was swetting the loss of Barringer. We had approx 2x10^4 guys play safety last year. then the big run play happens like 5mins. later. I couln't even bring myself to say "we loose a key guy and then bam...get burned." yea, that's because that "key" guy was Willis freakin' Barringer! not exactly a key player.
From now, I'll be happy if M recruits one of those fat, slow dudes from the old NES hockey game-- *IF* he can take the right ANGLE!!! aaarrrrrrgg. I'm tired of all the 5* safety omg shirtless studs (hello, Mundy & Shazor). the next time we get a safety Brian, can you find out if he knows geometry?
Side notes no one has talked about: 1) Chris Wells outran Brandon Harrison on the big TD run. yikes...is beanie out of eligibility yet?
2) If osu looses the NC game, and we win whatever bowl we play, the AP could vote us #1. We are still #2 in the AP. as scott bakula would say: oh boy....
the other guy,
Again, if USC wins out, let them go. Fine. If not UM is the next best choice IMO.
Not ND (even if they beat USC).
Not FLA. Not impressive and FLA's signature win is either a 1-point win at 3-loss TENN or a home win over 2-loss LSU. Neither is that impressive. Nor is FLA's loss.
Oh, and the talk about a split championship? While I understand the logic, if FLA is pushing that agenda then they need to assign 1/2 of their 1996 championship to FLA State, right???
@GoBucksarglebargle:
I agree that it's a shame if Michigan ends up at Glendale. Having said that, whoever wins that game is the national champ. Just like Florida was the champ in 1996. I agree that it's not fair, but apparently the BCS is not built on fairness.
@chimarieann:
I'm surprised nobody has made another comment on this, but you can't just copy and paste a post from a different board without an atribution just because "The post was so good and said everything I could have wanted to say". The least you could have done was to write that you saw it on a different board AT THE BEGINNING of your original post.
"While I understand the logic, if FLA is pushing that agenda then they need to assign 1/2 of their 1996 championship to FLA State, right???"
right. that analogy isn't quite as strong because florida and florida state played earlier in the season, and teams evolve over time. but had they played each other in the last game of the season, and then immediately after in the sugar bowl, then yes, it should be split. no contest.
@GoBucksarglebargle:
That game was the last game of the season for both teams. They played on November 30, 1996 in Tallahasee. The home team won by 3.
"That game was the last game of the season for both teams. They played on November 30, 1996 in Tallahasee. The home team won by 3."
ah, my mistake then. of course, that just strengthens my argument.
What was your argument again? UF (rightly) claims that they were the national champs. And so will Michigan if they end up going to Glendale and beating OSU.
"What was your argument again? UF (rightly) claims that they were the national champs. And so will Michigan if they end up going to Glendale and beating OSU."
my argument was that because both teams would have had identical records as the #2 team, with a 1-1 record against that team, the championship should be split.
to avoid that this year, michigan shouldn't play for the NC. they had their chance to get there and lost. the end.
UM CAUP '91 hit it right on the head and this is essentially the same conclusion I came to after mulling over the rematch/no rematch issue in my head. I can see that some people would be worried about the prospect of losing a 4th straight to Troy Smith. I can see that some people would feel a win in that game would be a somewhat tarnished champioship. But, MY GOD, can you imagine what beating them in Glandale would do to this rivalry? All the crap that was in the media this past week and all the bitter raving obsessed crap that you've hear from OSU fans over the past (insert your age here) years would be magnified 10-fold after that.
I know this is a purely selfish reason, but I want a rematch if for no other reason than if we were to win I would be able to wear a "2006 National Champions" hat every time I visit the great State of Ohio for the rest of my life and it would irritate the hell out of the Buckeyes without me even having to say a word! That delicious possibility alone is worth the risk of losing to them yet again.
To avoid the ugly ND rematch in the Rose Bowl I think the possibility exists that they matchup Wisc-ND, sending us to the Sugar Bowl against the SEC Champ. I think that is a better deal.
Another thought I shared with a friend: right on Brian about the DB recruiting. What good is it to have all these stud RB's, but when you get to the big games, only one or two guys carry the ball anyway. With today's offenses we need more quality DB's, even if that means converting guys like Minor and Brown to the defensive side (if possible).
Chimarieann,
That was a very eloquently written Mitch Albom-esque response. I am “struggling” (pronounced like a drunk Joe Namath) to find how anything you have written relates to my previous post or to your previous post (or whoever actually originally wrote that post).
I had Chex cereal for breakfast this morning. I use Crest toothpaste. We have kids that play high school football in Michigan too. The Tigers have sucked for over a decade until this past year. The Lions suck so bad that not even Barry Sanders could save them. Michigan has more employment problems than Ohio right now. Soooooo….what is the point?
In short:
If there were an 8-team playoff Michigan would get 1 of the 2 at-large bids and might play OSU again. We don’t have a playoff. We have the BCS: #1 vs. #2. OSU is clearly #1 and Michigan is clearly #2 after Saturday’s game. There should be a rematch for the NC in Glendale; love it, hate it, or otherwise.
Sorry. The last post was mine.
Matt - the BCS prohibits three teams from a single conference going to a BCS bowl, so Wisconsin gets screwed this year, despite its fine record. I think the current conventional wisdom is that ND goes to the Sugar to play the SEC Champ.
Gobucksargle - With regards to Michigan's "chance," we had a chance to go undefeated, yes. But so did every other team. The fact that our loss was on the road to the #1 team in the land shouldn't hurt us more than USC's loss to Oregon State. That doesn't make any sense.
The bigger thing though, is that the one-loss team selected for the national championship game shouldn't be based on who it would be playing. If we had won the game this past Saturday (I know, we didn't), would that mean ND was automatically precluded from playing for the national championship because they'd lost to us earlier in the season? What if Oregon State was undefeated (ha ha I know) - would that mean USC shouldn't be eligible to play in the national championship game because they had their chance and blew it, even if they proceeded to run the table?
I don't think it should work that way. The point of the BCS was (I think) to match up the two best teams in the land to play for the national championship. When you have to compare one-loss teams, I think it's certainly legitimate to consider their losses, but it doesn't make sense to penalize Michigan just because the team it lost to is better than every other team out there and it would have to play them again. Michigan's loss is indisputably the "best loss" of any of them. If that means anything.
The only possible argument I think USC or Florida or Arkansas may have is that the "possibility" exists (however unlikely) that the Big Ten, Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame, and Texas are ALL overrated. If that were the case, then it is conceivable that one of those other teams is actually the best in the land, and we won't know for sure until they actually play OSU.
Cicumstancial evidence, however, strongly suggests that OSU is not overrated. But until all of those teams get a 2nd loss, I think you have to give those 3 teams the benefit of the doubt and send one of them to the slaught.. er..I mean, Glendale.
Anonymous
My post related to everything written here. A wide range of topics and emotions. I lived in Michigan, Oscoda, I grew up and lived in Cleveland. As bias as you may think, football is bigger in Ohio at all levels. Look at the Browns fans (Dawg Pound). They are every bit as passionate as OSU fans. Browns Backers is the largest NFL fan organization in the world.
Rematch, No way. Right now Michigan is #2, but I will bet they will not be in the final standings. We both played on the same field (grass) and the outcome was OSU by 3. A rematch proves nothing. Michigan had a shot at the National Title, they lost. Think how the rest of the Teams would cry?
Be proud of what you did Saturday, came within 3 of the best Team in the Nation. And move on with to win for the Big 10.
Champions bleed Scarlett and Grey....this year
I don't get it. I don't watch a rematch either. We're proud of what Michigan did on the field on Saturday. But it's not up to us to decide. Until the system decides who's going to play OSU, it's okay for us to talk about it. You may have a legitimate beef if any Michigan fan complains AFTER the final BCS poll. In fact, I will personally say STFU to any Michigan fan who complains that we're not #2 in the final BCS poll (unless Notre Dame is the #2).
(Per Son of Jorel | 11.20.06 - 9:23 pm)
[Detroit Free Press 10/13/2006]
"LONG WAY OFF? Michigan senior left tackle Jake Long, who was redshirted his freshman year, said he's not looking at entering the NFL draft in the spring.
"I'm planning on coming back for my fifth year and graduating," Long said. "I'm not even thinking about it. At the end of the season the time will come and you have to talk to the older guys and the coaches, people who have been there before. But as of now, I'm coming back."
did I hear someone say we put up 39 points at the shoe and lost?
say it ain't so.
Chimarieann,
"A rematch proves nothing"
To me it seems that it would prove whether the OSU 3 point victory was homefield advantage or true superiority.
So, the team with the largest fan club knows the most about college football? By that logic it would seem that China knows the most about government, since they have the largest population of any nation. Should we all be communist then?
Please respond to some of my other points in my first post to you rather than providing more history of where you have lived and more of your opinion about the relative fervor of football fans among adjoining states.
During all of the "playing on a neutral field talk"....has anyone taken into consideration that OSU is one of, if not the best, traveling schools in the country. Anyone who has watched a Buckeye bowl game in the past 5 or 6 years can tell you that the majority if not even close to 70% of the stadium are Buckeye fans. I know the grass will be vastly improved and it won't be 105,000 rabid Buckeye fans like you'll find at the Shoe, but no one can automatically assume that a neutral field will equal totally neutral conditions.
New topic:
Is there any scenario where our defense isn't weak next year? I fear that losing Harris, Burgess, Hall, Woodley, Biggs, and probably Branch too is going to decimate us. (I think Crable will decide to come back, but who knows?) I pray that John Thompson really IS "little Ray Lewis" and has everyone saying "why the F wasn't this guy playing more???" I hope both Grahams, Englemon and Sears develop. (I think Stewart is a lost cause.) I hope Adams and Harrison learn geometry. I hope TO GOD that Ronald Johnson comes to M and contributes right away, a la Marlin Jackson. I hope Branch somehow decides to stay 1 more year. I hope Jamison makes the loss of Woodley less painful. I hope Marques Slocum turns out to be a OMG manbearfreak who can make an immediate impact. I like Will Johnson and Terrance Taylor anchoring the middle.
If Long stays, I think our offense can be really, really good. Kraus was a splendid Center last year and could move back into that role easily. Mitchell could move out to Right Tackle, Boren in at Left Guard and we'd be looking pretty solid on the O-line! Our WRs are solid with MM, AA, and Mathews, Savoy, etc. etc. TE is solid with Massey and Butler.
The RB spot is obviously in great shape. We're going to miss Obi at FB, though.
Basically, I'm hoping the 2007 Wolverines can replicate what the 2006 Buckeyes have done: veteran offense returns, wholesale graduations on defense, but surprisingly great play from new starters. Oh, and The Game is a home game!
UM CAUP '91,
Precisely my gut feeling, buddy. This year's Wolverines remind me (scarily) of the 2005 Buckeyes: one loss short of greatness. If they had done hoodooed the Young Voodoo Man, who knows what would have transpired agains PSU. Lordy, did they manhandle a good ND team in the bowl game, and something like three points (?) against a great Longhorns team, at home (dèjà vu Nov. 18). I really think (wish, hope and pray à la Brian Wilson) that the new English program will bring in recruits, on both sides of the field, like rain in spring. I think we're on our way to greatness, to dynasty-like greatness. If only there were a killer WR named Faulkner out there, just to further drive the English point home. The 2006 Wolverines are a split infinitive: in ideal circumstances it shouldn't be done, but in less than ideal ones it can be, and is.
Do they teach logic at UM? As in if you loose, you loose?
What I like about this discussion and the original blog is that I feel a connection to the pain and the worry and the cursing, even if I watched as a Buckeye fan. I believe in Ohio State and feel a darkness inside when Michigan football is presented; but I know that at root it's silly: we aren't different. I watched in a hotel room, often with the volume off because I couldn't endure the added intensity of sound. And alone. I always watch it alone, for the same reason that all the folks here have stated: the casual fan infuriates me, and he/she makes me recognize simulateously that I care beyond rational proportion.
I consider one of my finest moments as a fan my congratulations to a Spartan fan in '98. But my words didn't mean that I felt above the pain of that loss.
Finally, talk about academic superiority sounds adolescent. Among PhDs, I notice that few judge based on where you got your degreee.
how about this for logic:
1)the BCS isn't about fairness
2) the BCS isn't about giving team X "a shot" at the title.
3) it IS about calculating the 2 best teams on Dec 3
after all this, it IS logical to say that M has a pretty good chance at finishing #2 *EVEN IF* USC, Fla win out. look at the BCS #'s: M still is #2 in 5/6 computers. That's what gives them the advantage over USC. if USC wins out, the computers will have to change their "minds"---the polls won't change: they already have USC #2. maybe they don't teach math at OS"U"
Its true Michigan had their chance in that game. But did OSU not have their chance too? They won by three at home, statistics relating to relative quality of college football teams call that about a draw. They had a two touchdown lead at halftime, tried like hell to pull away and could not. Michigan played well on offense in the 2nd half and benefitted from a couple of odd Buckeye mistakes, OSU played well on offense in the 1st half and benefitted from some Henne screwups in drives 2, 3 and 4 (don't get me wrong, our defense had no chance in the first half). Special teams was not really a factor.
I'm originally from out west, so I didn't grow up on Bo. I think that is why I am all for a rematch. Brian's point in Eleven Swans, (which I now see was unbelievably insightful) that the Michigan fan is the way he/she is because Bo made him/her that way, is kind of true. People who did grow up on Bo say we had our chance, no matter the circumstances, and lost, so its all over. People like me are only angry and ashamed that we lost and are dying for a chance at redemption. We know, we just KNOW, that, given another chance, Henne will not suffer a massive regression to 2005-Henne and Michigan will go into the half about tied, and then maybe win.
So, yeah, if USC doesn't pummel ND on Saturday, I want a rematch. OSU had their chance and didn't show they are significantly better or prove that a game on a neutral field would be purely academic.
brad,
your calling out of henne may be missing the point. 39 points in the shoe! I'd have mortgaged my house and gone to vegas if I was told we'd put 39 points on the board.
fortunately, I'm not a gambler.
OK, let me get this right. Even if you have not played for Bo, known him personally the 'the Michigan fan is the way he/she is because Bo made him/her that way'. Ok, so Catholics are like the Pope (those Notre Dame fans must really have a heads up on all of us), and of course OSU fans are mean, rotten people because that's how you preceive Woody. But wait, Bo and Woody were great friends off the field...so Bo must have made Woody the way he was. Actually, Woody taught Bo. Silly isn't it? That's your logic.
Bo was who he was because he choose to be that way. Some people choose to model themselves after his positive traits. Bo, Woody and all of us make choices.
Google a coach from Cleveland, Auggie Bossu. That's a man that has the winningest record in both high school football and baseball. That man will be wisked to heaven when he passes. Still coaching at 90, still coached with 2 hip replacements. The worst words from his mouth in front of his Team was "hells bells". A Notre Dame grad who has I believe 6 kids all with their Masters as coach worked 2 jobs. Last but not least, he coached at a little school callled Benedictine, known as the sign on the front of school, "The Home of Champions."
I agree, Bo was a great coach. I haven't heard much negative about his character. May he rest in Peace.
Chimarieann,
Do they teach spelling at Adrian or whatever so-called college you attended? A dictionary may be helpful to you.
Loose???
Are we talking about a knot or the outcome of a football game? The word is LOSE. One "o" only. Retard.
You are the one that needs a lesson in logic. I presented several logical reasons why Michigan is #2 and should play OSU again in Glendale. You have not addressed any of my points. Instead you post about where you live, where you went to college, and about the Browns fan club. You are a little ADD at best.
Just answer the question regarding the NFL system of determining a champion. Should the Colts not have to play the Patriots in the playoffs because they beat them already in the regular season? Is the winner of the Superbowl not the NFL champion if they happen to have lost to the runner-up in the regular season?
Cantenkerous,
You're right, you're right, I know you're right. Henne played really well the rest of the game and, obviously, helped keep us in it. But watching the middle of the first half again on Sunday was really killing me.
Chimarieann,
I don't know what to say, you kind of lost me there. I wasn't really talking about choices, or Catholics. I certainly would not contend that Bo taught Woody a whole lot. Anyway, I don't want to go forwarding my interpretation of Brian's point, its practically plagiarism already. I was just trying to share this magical moment when I finally understood how the people I ran into at Michigan could temper the horrible pain of losing with emotional toughness that I previously had no way of understanding, while I could not. Or maybe I'm just a big pussy.
I will say that I don't think Woody was an evil guy or anything, and I don't perceive him as rotten. I think he was kind of a genious to aim his program at Michigan and give it that focus. OSU kids since the '50s have had something tangible to motivate them every single day to get better. I think Bo did about the same thing when he came to Ann Arbor, and Michigan kids since the 70's have had the same tangible motivation.
Ray-Ray? You must be the man!
Out of respect for Brian and his great work and in an effort to reduce the "noise" from me and others, I will say that tOSU and UM are very different institutions, and that those differences are real, significant, and important to the students, alumni, and fans of their respective schools. Also, I have friends.
On to football: I think a rematch is a poor idea in the abstract--we did indeed have our shot and did not deliver. At the same time, if no viable candidate presents itself, and UM is #2 in the BCS, we kind of have to play the game. I am entirely in favor of crowning tOSU right now as the champs of college football. However, the system we have (crude as it is), requires a title game.
Let's think of this: were there a playoff (most agree a less crude, more effective system) and a rematch came out of the playoff, would the championship lose credibility? Is it the idea of a rematch, or the idea of a rematch engineered by voting that is discomfiting? I would submit it is the latter, which really throws the rematch talk back on the BCS as a system as opposed to the merits of Michigan, Florida, or USC. Currently, the chief merit of both UF and USC is that they are NOT Michigan, which is just as perverse as the arguments in favor of the tOSU/UM rematch.
Bryan has a good point. Had we a 4 or 8 team playoff, Michigan would doubtless be the 3 seed behind tO$U and USC. We would play tO$U in the semis.
Should we win (as Florida did in the '96 championship which was FSU's first game after their 24-21 defeat of the Gators on that November 30), would our victory "loose" credibility and make the championship game hollow?
I guess the overwhelming plagiarism- I mean,uh- logic of Chimarieann tO$U fan probably has Thad Busby and the '96 'Noles making up Championship rings, no?
Ray Ray,
OSU and Michigan are not NFL teams. Therefore your logic is out the door. OSU and Michigan are not pro baseball Teams, you don't have to beat a team more then once to be declared the winner. Bottom line is Michigan had a chance to beat the #1 Team and they lost. Why should Michigan get a second chance? Would that be fair to all the teams with 1 loss?
OSU gave Michigan turnovers. Mistakes were made on both sides. Both Teams played on grass. OSU had not touched that field since it was re-sodded until game day.
Tressel has Carr's number. He has for a while now. At OSU if a coach keeps loosing to Michigan, he isn't a coach for OSU for long.
Would you really want Tressel to have 30 days to come up with a game plan for a rematch? Do you think Troy Smith will not perform under pressure of a rematch? Do you think some of Michigan's comments about the game and rematch would only motivate OSU even more? Could Michigan take 2 losses to OSU in one year? Would you ask for another rematch if you lost again?
Michiagn and OSU played the biggest game of their seasons last week. One team won that game. Scoreboard? Reality check.
At OSU no matter what our record is it was not a good season unless we beat Michigan. We did. Next year is new chapter.
Michigan had their shot. Time to move on and give another team a shot at OSU.
Michigan will have plenty of motivation next year, on their field to beat OSU.
Bo said before the game... no rematch under any circumstance. He was right.
Personal cheap shots..... I can only assume that is the MO for Michigan fans from my own personal experience here.
Good Luck in your Bowl Game and have a good Holiday.
how about this for logic:
1)the BCS isn't about fairness
2) the BCS isn't about giving team X "a shot" at the title.
3) it IS about calculating the 2 best teams on Dec 3
after all this, it IS logical to say that M has a pretty good chance at finishing #2 *EVEN IF* USC, Fla win out. look at the BCS #'s: M still is #2 in 5/6 computers. That's what gives them the advantage over USC. if USC wins out, the computers will have to change their "minds"---the polls won't change: they already have USC #2. maybe they don't teach math at OS"U"...or reading....
Chimarieann,
Thanks for posting something relevant.
No, my logic is not flawed. I understand that Michigan and OSU are not in the NFL (thanks for pointing that out). I also understand that the NFL is an example of why it is flawed logic to think that a team that has lost previously to a certain opponent should not be allowed to play that opponent again for the championship. It happens in every other sport (the other divisions of NCAA football included).
Reality Check: OSU played a great game Saturday. They deserved to win. Troy Smith is awesome. They won the big ten championship and secured a spot in the BCS NC game. What they did not do, however, is remove Michigan from the NC picture. If OSU wanted to do that they should have beaten Michigan by more than 3 points. It is that simple.
The purpose of the BCS is to pit the best and second best team against each other for a championship bowl game. Go to the BCS website. Read it for yourself. It is unfortunate for OSU that the 2nd best team in the country is in the same conference, is a bitter rival, and was defeated in their most recent game. That is just how it goes.
You cannot honestly, after Saturday’s game, think that there is a team that deserves the #2 ranking more than Michigan. So what if they just played? That was for the big ten championship; not the NC.
I never mentioned the turf.
Tressel does not have Carr’s number. Troy Smith has the number of nearly every opponent. Tressel has consistently won with better talent, as he should have. Tressel does not concern me; Troy Smith does. I certainly think Troy Smith will perform again just as I think Michigan will perform. I agree that Michigan would not be favored to win, but neither would any of the other contenders that are inferior to Michigan this year. Michigan is the 2nd best team. Period. Sorry that you don’t like that.
BTW - If Tressel is so smart then why did he keep inserting Zwick into the Texas game over Smith last season when it was obvious to even the most casual observer that it was the wrong move?
Yes, Michigan could take 2 losses to OSU or to any other team in the same year. What choice would they have?
No, of course there would be no call for a third game (except, perhaps, by OSU).
No, it is not time to move aside and give another team a shot at OSU since all the other teams are inferior to Michigan this year. That is not how the BCS is set-up. Sorry.
I love Bo and admire him a ton, but do disagree with him on this matter.
Personal Cheap Shots: I recall you firing the first shot across the bow regarding not teaching logic at UM. I won’t fire until fired upon. I also refuse to make a sweeping generalization about OSU fans based on one internet thread.
You have a good Thanksgiving too, and enjoy the second game against Michigan in Glendale.
General question to everyone who doesn't think Michigan deserves the other slot in the Glendale Bowl: who's better, and why?
USC is a better team, especially if they win out. They will have won NINE games against bowl-eligible BCS teams compared to Michigan's five wins.
Florida will have beaten eight winning BCS teams should they advance past Florida State and Arkansas in the SEC title game.
Arkansas will have taken out six winners if they beat LSU then Florida, which that combination is a combined 20-5 (after tallying LSU and Florida's losses to the Hogs should they win).
Michigan got their shot and lost. I agree with the earlier analysis that the Maize and Blue received a +3 turnover margin and STILL LOST. Brian is more right than wrong on this one.
Notre Dame? No. Not even if we beat USC by 50.
That last post was 'classless'. My hopes are the person who posted that has no ties to Ohio or the Buckeyes.
In an hour we'll see Notre Dame get taken down, I hope.
Second wish. They loose by 20 plus.
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