I like pie...
2nd
I guess MSU was just reduced to baby brother from little brother.
AA will be an intimadating place to play, not because of "waco-ninja" offenses, but when RR hires the "waco-ninja" offense (and every other offense for that matter) killer.....Will Muschamp (AUB).
You know they're reaching when they say KF would have been a better hire....seriously, most of those blogs would have panned any hire we made....if we hire Les, for example. the Bubba Gump jokes would have been rolling....so i am not worried about what any of these guys say....fact is, folks at PSU would kill to have RR as their coach right now.
And, the whole meme about getting a coach that does not fit their personnel.....thats a little to focused on one position, if you ask me....not to mention ignoring the first half of RR's coaching career.....it will be interesting to review these critiques one year from now.....I think we will end up on the positive side, and it wont even be close!
Rod has been a head coach for 15 of his 23 years in coaching. He's been named Coach of the Year four times in those 15 seasons (received three such awards in one season).
My concern as a U-M fan with Rodriguez' offense is that it seems to rely upon a legendary athlete to make it go. The QB is even more important to this offense than to the regular pro-set offense, at least to my mind. The problem is, when the legendary athlete goes down, what are the odds that there is a comparable athlete to take his place?
Say, f'rinstance, U-M recruits Pryor and he is the legendary athlete that people hope. How willing will the next year's legendary athlete (of which there are few) be to come to U-M and wait behind Pryor for 2-3 years? It just seems that there is so much more pressure and emphasis put on the QB in RR's system. If he's healthy, ZOOM! If not, then there may be problems.
Brian-
It's Terrelle Pryor
What is The Nick Perry say about this hire? Does this help with our recruitment of him?
ridiculous that people are calling him an opportunist -- clearly the people at WVU weren't giving him the support he needs. he got a bunch of stuff in place by threatening alabama, but then the AD still didn't deliver on a lot of promises. at some point, you say enough is enough. being willing to move doesn't make you an opportunist. if so, Bo was one too. He interviewed at Wisconsin one year (and was turned down!), and then Michigan shortly thereafter. Was Bo an opportunist too?
I can't name one super, wunderkind that has run this offense and won anything (Pat White..No, Tim Tebow..No). It was Shaun King at Tulane, and Leak at FLA that had the best runs so far as results go.
Seems like the offense fits whoever is there, and that is a good thing!
I still say that Brian Kelly would have been a better hire. But Rodriguez is light years ahead of Miles, in my opinion, as I said all along when everyone around here thought the sky was falling when UM didn't get Miles and when everyone around here was on cloud nine when it was thought Miles would be UM's next coach.
The Rod is my pappy!
It's funny, I was just thinking what fans of Michigan's "rivals" think of this so went over to Black Shoes, and as I suspected they thought that we would "regret" this hire, and the spread will never work with Mallett and the 3-3-5 will never work against the Tony Hunts and PJ Hills of the big ten - Michigan is the new NW, blah, blah, blah.
Glad Brian brought this silliness to light.
I do not expect other teams to "fear" us. They already have Michigan Derangement Syndrome so I think what they are doing now is telling us how bad it is going to be for us, because they cannot face the prospect that Michigan will improve with a new system and a new coach.
I expected we would get the the RR is only 4-3 v. Pitt; RR choked a chance at the MNC; OMG - Miami and VT are not in the Big East. And if you read the comments at BSD - it has all of that. It is like the Mgoblog threads when the RR rumors first came to light. Yawn.
Anyone who does not think that this was a great hire (not knowing how it will turn out) it simply sandbagging in the hopes that it fails.
While RR is not guaranteed success, it is not because this was not the perfect hire - really the best or second best option out there for us (I still would have been thrilled with Les Miles).
I just see how excited recruits get about this system and coach Rod and think that our future is pretty strong now that he has the block M behind him.
Next year might be rough (and would have been with any coach given our personnel), but I like our future and like this coach.
RR >> Brian Kelly
Many more questions and negatives surrounding Kelly imho. Also, not nearly as proven. RR has been doing at on the big stage and was one untimely injury away from the MNC game. Actually, a very timely injury: w/o it, we would still be w/o a coach perhaps (or we would have Miles).
This is irrational Michigan-bashing. Here we have Michigan finishing 8-4 after a what all would classify as a horrible season with some pretty bad coaching and out of shape players. You add to this a coach with a monster conditioning program + offensive creativity and subtract Mike Debord, crappy special teams and a short-timer head coach and some nitwits think WE'LL GET WORSE?!? Yeah, right.
All the low wattage light bulbs will go on after Michigan obliterates what would have been a scary Utah team.
Michigan can recruit depth. there won't be 2 TPs on the roster...but a TP + a threet? yea... that could happen. at WV, there was White (a 3-4* guy) and then a 1-2* crappy guy.
at M, there will be a TP-type guy and a Threet type guy to back him up.
my concern w/ this offense is the turnover issue. this offense seems like it could be more TO prone. right now, it's just a hunch. but i wouldn't be shocked if some intrepid blogger did some research into WV (and oregon and others who run the spread) rankings in the TO dept. and discovered a slight but significant tendence to turn the ball over.
500 yards + 4 TOs ~= 90 yards + 0 TOs. that is, in both cases you are likey to lose.
Actually,
WVU had two great QB's in White and Devine. Good get by RR, although Devine would not pass muster at Mich. but he was stacked at QB for the future.
i wonder how people think we will do next year.
thus, your task:
2 losses.
Over? or
Under?
MathWhiz (and anyone else buying into this ridiculous argument), WVU's offense showed its ineptness against Pitt well before White injured his thumb, so please stop making excuses for WVU (and RR) laying an egg when the spotlight was on. Is RR a good coach? Absolutely. But to imply that he and his team did everything necessary to prepare for what should have been a lock at home against a 4 TD underdog and was simply the victim of a freak injury is simply an attempt to give RR a pass for the Pitt game.
Devine is a RB. I forgot their backup QB.
I say 3: ND, WISC, OSU
I dont care what OSU fans have to say, and why should they fear any hire. They should welcome us making a step up because a better big 10, helps both programs.
But, the rest of the Big 10....c'mon guys, you haven't been able to pass us even as we have been stuck in a rut, running the same playbook year after year....lol at the MSU stuff saying RR, he who has won league titles 4 out of 5 years, is going to turn us into NW....please, he'll have more talent at his disposal and will be playing againt only marginally better talent.
Said it in an earlier thread, but please check out WVA league performance in 2002 and 2003....miami, BC and VT were still in the league....only teams he lost to was Miami, in both years. Those were uber talented Cane teams, of course...he beat VT in year 2 and 3 when they were in the top-5 both times....so, lets he took over a mediocre program at the time and by the second and third seasons, he had them splitting against the league powers and winning co-champs.....yeah, he's going to suck here.
and i love the cooper + Johnelle comparisons. love it. they are re-he-he-he-heeeeeeelly reaching, man.
ND? Really? I don't see that happening. Wisconsin sort of up in the air, and unless a bucket full of juniors leave for OSU, I'll grant you the OSU game. I think MSU gives us a game, too. Not saying it'll be a loss, but it will be close.
Oregon 30th in TO margin
WVU 11th in the nation this year:
Fumbles gained 18
Int Gained 15
Fumbles Lost 15
Interceptions Lost 6
Margin 12
Michigan this year 26th
Fum Gained 15
Int Gained 14
Fumb Lost 11
Int Lost 12
Margin 6
http://
sportsillustrated.cnn.com...NVR_MARGIN.html
@ TVOR
I get what you are saying: they still should have won against Pitt. I didn't watch the game, so can't say much else.
That said, when you put a backup QB in, you do worse.
4 losses next year:
Illinois
Wisconsin
Penn State
OSU
The MSU game scares me, too.
voice...if you were to equate Pitt and WV in 07 with B10 teams in terms of TALENT only, what teams would they equate to?
I forgot to point out that their fumbles have them in a tie for 6th most in the country, one less than notre dame.
Read this on Terrelle Pryor
http://michigan.rivals.com/conte....asp?
CID=752875
and this on Nick Perry
http://michigan.scout.com/a.z?s=...62&p=2&
c=712779
The new Coach has had an immediate impact on recruiting! We may not land them all, but there is some new recruiting MO...
Using "meme" is my favorite mgoblog comment meme.
i was those last two anonymous comments. yet again i am formerly anonymous
DanK, RR has to evolve and I think he will. The need for high risk/high reward football is reduced at Michigan. Assuming no Pryor, I don't think you'll see the spread option as the main scheme for years. I think you'll see a system that creates space, uses the shotgun, creates mismatches and uses the kind of QB & WRs he has never seen. AND situationally creates havoc with option football. Michigan will be a nightmare to defend (I can't believe I just said that).
This man is football smart, people.
oh yea, and i'd say 3-4 losses next year. 10-3 or 9-4. any of ND, Wisc, MSU, Ill, OSU, PSU could beat us.
and i'm only worried about TOs lost...so it looks pretty close for M, WV.
not only football smart, RR is the guy that other people go to in order to learn about the spread-option. he is the modern-day fritz crisler. all he has to do next to cement his place in Michigan lore is come up with a new helmet design ....
Easy on predicting 10 wins next year. No matter who was coaching, next season is going to be a challenge. Add to that a brand new system and 8-4 ain't looking so bad.
Just for fun...
Carlos Brown was a high school QB in GA. Check it out. Him and McGuffie in the spread (even situationally) could be interesting. I still think that RR will get Mallet involved in a spread passing game.
DanK...
WVU - Indiana
Pitt - Indiana
Brian,
I think that the odds of Rodriguez staying in Ann Arbor long-term are high, but don't forget that Alabama considered their head coaching position to be a terminal job, right up until Franchione took off for A&M.
The Florida blog breakdown was great. FLa avereaged 41 points with Chris Leak! In the SEC! YIKES! I knew the numbers were good with Leak, better with Tebow, but wow.
MDan, i get that & i agree.... but long term, can that offense protect the ball w/ a QB running so much?
plus, isn't it more fun to wax hypothetic with TP on the team?
Voice, so what about Pitt? Who didn't lay an egg this year? They probably thought they had the game in the bag. That's enough to get anyone beat...OSU, USC UofM, Oklahoma.
Dank,
In terms of talent, I'd say that WVU ranks right up there with some of the best in the Big Ten. We all know about the talent of their skill players such as Slaton, White, Devine, Reynaud, Schmitt, but they've got some playmakers on defense too. I'd put them below OSU (who, I hate to say it, is by far the most talented team in the Big Ten), but in front of everyone else in the Big Ten.
As for Pitt, I haven't seen them play much this year (I saw the WVU game, obviously, I saw them lose a close one to MSU, and I saw them beat Cincinnati). I am not impressed with them much at all, despite what they did in those three games. I'd say that talent-wise, I'd put them behind every team in the Big Ten except for Minnesota.
@ ND, Wisco, Illi, MSU, @PSU, @OSU.
Those are the swing games. We will go 4-2 in those games. Cant see us worse than 3-3.
ND, always worry me. MSU, the last 4 UM coaches have lost their first to MSU (perhaps, thats the rivalry our new coaches have a hard time defining, just a thought). Wisco I actually think will be a win. At PSU, I dont expect much out of them nest year, but geez oh peet how many times in a row can we expect to beat them.
Illini and OSU are the two other lead dogs in the league race with us. If we beat Illini in September, we'll be in the same spot next year as we were this year....playing OSU with the big 10 on the line.
coaching search summary:
ferentz
les miles?
schiano
RR
what's funny about this to me:
i like the candidates in exact reverse order. RR >> schiano >> miles >> ferentz. but maybe that is just me.
WVU - Indiana
Pitt - Indiana
i love it....made me laugh after reading all the haters from MSU, PSu.
i'd say it's more like..
WVU-Ill
Pitt-MSU
but that's based on a hunch...i've not done the rivals arithmatic like you have.
Pat White & Steve Stanton both were 3-star recruits coming out of HS. We don't need 5-star guys to make this new scheme successful.
Mich a terminal job? RR not going anywhere?
I think RR coveted the FSU job that is now grandfathered to Jimbo Fisher. But JF could go many places, including WVU. He could also do theFSU gig, and end up like Zook, out of favor and get dumped.
If FSU becomes open in the next 3-years, will RR be tempted? Likely!
Am I the only one that is worrying about Utah and Miami? Utah has been meh since Meyer left, but they still put it on UCLA. Miami is consistently the top of the MAC. I know neither of those is much of an accomplishment, but with this being our first year in a new system, I have to at least question the first few games.
one other question for the wise followers of this blog:
going into The Game, will OSU be undefeated?
My hunch is yes. If so, it will be a great introduction for RR. Remember Bo beat Woody's "best team". Imagine the feeling of going into Columbus and ending the OSU undefeated season....
Pat White and Steve Slaton were 3 star recruits who happened to pan out. 5 Stars are much more likely to do so than 3 stars. That RR has had success with 3 stars doesn't change the fact that it's a lot easier to have success with 5 stars.
We are probably in for 3-5 losses next year.
We lose our top RB, our QB, our best two OL and our best LB and our best DB. Our Dline will be the best returning talent on the team. The WR and RB positions are talented but without Mannigham and Arrington (both likely to leave) we will be young at every position.
I like the talent 2 years out, but next year was going to be a struggle no matter who was here. That is why this year was so disappointing and why we were ranked no 5 to begin the year - alot of offensive talent - wasted.
next year that is...
Hey, Big Jim is back, tell us again how you took your boss to the ND-UM game when Desmond struck the pose.
"Michigan will be the next Northwestern" - ?
You mean Northwestern of "NU 48 - MSU 41"? Is that the Northwestern you mean, Spartan fan?
Hypothetical Big East vs Big Ten challenge based on the standings this year.....give me the outcomes of these games at neutral settings:
OSU vs WVA
Illini vs UCONN
UM vs USF
Wisco vs Cincy
PSU vs Rut
Thats both leagues top-5's.....i think it goes 3-2 either way, personally.
Going further into the standings
Lville vs MSU, PU, Iowa, IU....really the Cards could easily win any of those games, and they weren't "good enough" to get to a bowl game unlike three of those big 10 squads.
Pitt vs the same four would more than hold their own.
Scuse, the last place team in the big east would, well, not fare well.
Thoughts????
well, voice. i know for a fact that MDan will come after you re: WV talent.
but i'd say that Pitt is of MSU-Pur-level talent. more talented than IU, Minn, NW....less talented than OSU, M, PSU, Wisc, Ill, Iowa.
so like I said... Pitt == MSU/Pur
WV slightly more talented, more like Ill, Wisc, Iowa
Voice, you're nuts (respectfully). Read my blog. WVU averages less than two-star talent on offense. The rank with Indiana & NW in talent. Any talent that excites you (except for Devine) is a creation of RR.
I like
OSU over WVU
Illinois over UConn (who I think is terrible, by the way)
USF over UM
Wisconsin over UC
PSU over Rutgers (this is a close call, though)
Big Ten 4-1.
OSU WVU toss up. I lean towards WVU
Illinois UCONN, Illinois by 14
UM USF, if healthy michigan by less than 3
WISC Cinn - Cinn by 7
PSU Rutgers - PSU 10 to 7
Meeechigan,
You put too much stock into recuiting rankings. I don't think they're that indicative of talent. I'm sure Brian would agree with me.
formerly anon,
We will roll Miami. They had a nice team this year, but won w/ smoke and mirrors. Wont be a contest. Utah, though, scares me. They run the spread and will have a lot of returning starters. Watch them tomorrow vs Navy in their bowl game if you want a better look. I think w/ RR, though, the offense will open up and they will have a tough time stopping us. If we spread out 4 WRs, they just cant match up.
Math Whiz,
No OSU wont be. USC will beat them. And, if they have as many defections to the NFL as I think they might, expect somebody else in the big 10 to finally get them....can they stop the Juice in Champaign, for example?
I'm sure saying Brian would agree with you isn't the best defense of a point. I would agree that recruiting rankings are weak at best, but when you have nothing else to work with, it can offer some light.
michigan wont lose 4-5 games are you crazy. first off, any coach would be better than lloyd carr. second off, if coach rod's offense is anywhere close to the hype, then there is no way these giant big 10 defensive players will stop this spread attack, I mean if you want to look at NW for reference, they were able to put up a lot of points, way more than they would have with a traditional offense. With michigan's talent and new commitment to scoring, look for a 10 win season.
Jamie,
I agree. USC at home should crush OSU, who I think will have all of their defensive stars leave early for the draft this year.
OSU vs WVA..tossup
Illini vs UCONN...ill
UM vs USF...M
Wisco vs Cincy....W
PSU vs Rut...tossup
so, 4-1 B10 'wins'
What is the word on Manningham, has anyone heared anything?
There is a lot of buzz about Pryor on some of the sites right now. Is there new information?
So someone well credited over at Rivals is strongly hinting that Pryor is ours~
Voice of Reason
I'm almost positive Brian would not agree with you, as he wrote a piece a couple years back examining how well the top 50 Rivals players had panned out. His conclusion? Recruiting rankings aren't perfect, but when you factor out people who busted out of off-field crap, they're remarkably good at predicting success. A 5 star is much more likely to be a productive player than a 3 star.
NDNation types making fun of another team's coaching search = pure ironic comedy gold. Lest they forget, Charlie f'ing Weis is their head coach. No one in the country did a worse job than that asshat in 2007.
2008 might be a struggle for Michigan, but past that Rodriguez is going to be a monster.
That ND extension Martin signed still sucks, but it will be funny watching RRod absolutely pwn Chuckles repeatedly, assuming fatboy survives past next season.
nonetheless...the fact remains that the talent gap b/t WV and Pitt (& WV and the rest of the BEast) is very thin. very very thin. if not equal.
If Bill Parcells takes the Falcon job, I would say that Chuckles is in play for a spot there.
Would he go. If Bill asked him he might.
So, Voice, your analysis is that WVU's poorly regarded talent was in fact on par with OSU & UofM but Pitt's poorly regarded talent was really poor? In other words, RR has a unique ability to find diamonds in the rough. Brian has agreed that as a general measure, recruiting assesment of talent is quite useful, but that it breaks down as an individual predictor of success.
The question was about talent level. If you actually think that WVU is the second most talented team in the Big 10, then RR is either the world's best recruiter or best developer of talent.
I'll take that.
Is us beating USF such a guarantee...we could not block Ghoulston this year, how would we block Selvie...plus they have a pair of first-day of the NFL draft picks at each corner back spot.....the offense I saw this year would be in for a fight....somehow, I feel like we would make that punk kid Grothe look like a stud.
I think Rutgers would beat PSU.....after being killed by them for years, finally getting a crack at Joe Pa, now that they're football program is winning....that is a Super Bowl for Rutgers.....they chop wood and get it done....c'mon guys its Anthony Morelli?
WVA-OSU is a toss up.
Cincy beat Wisco ten years ago when they had Dayne. Cincy is way more advanced of a program now. They would have a great shot there.
Uconn-Illini....I still dont know how Uconn won as many games as they did this year. That D of Illini would crush them....seriously, thats the only game where the Big 10 wins in a cakewalk.
But, what about Lville and Pitt vs the next rung? they totally hold their own.
My point, RR has succeeded in a league that is not much tougher right now than the Big 10...and as MDan and others have pointed out, now he is going to a place that recruits in the top 10 in its sleep....look out, my friends!
AAB - Great minds think alike. Here's the post in question re: Brian's take on recruiting -
http://mgoblog.blogspot.com/2006...100-part-
i.html
But aren't we all missing the point. Isn't it about who did more with less material. I mean look at our top four star and five star recruits the last few years. We have done nothing to really develop them into players that excel. RR has made three stars into players that outplay four and five stars. This is positive either way: 1) he develops them to the max or 2) he has a better eye for tallent than all the recruiting services. I will take either of those situations.
@big dog,
OSU - easily a possible loss
Illinois - Their top players were sophomores this year. They will get better.
MSU - they live only to try and beat us. Sooner or later they will
PSU - They finally get rid of anthony morelli, the 2nd worst four year starter @ QB in college football history. The rest of their team will be 90% intact Not as likely a loss, but could be.
Wisconsin - least likely to lose to since it is at home
I fear Utah and Miami still. Honestly I'm glad Iowa isn't on the schedule. We'd be at Iowa this time around. I just got a bad feeling thinking about it.
Rob - great minds!
This one is especially good:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zBL2FaLG0Ck
A little long, but full of all kinds of crazy. He misspells throughout the clip, so it is worth watching. And his description of the clip is priceless:
"My little farewell to the 2 faced bastart that i hope dies, names RICH RODRIGUEZ"
Rich Rod's Bastart Son | 12.19.07 - 3:16 pm | #
That was on the last comments thread but better belongs on this one. I am not for kicking WVU fans while they are down, but this guy is too much
Is it really fair to say we've done nothing to develop our 4 and 5 star players?
5 star QB-Chad Henne-excellent player when healthy.
RBs-Mike Hart-3 Star. Is Mike Hart
WRs-Arrington/Manningham-4 stars, one of the most dangerous tandems in the country
OL-Long is the only experienced lineman we have who was well respected, and he's a top 5 pick
DL-Branch, Woodley, Taylor, Jamison, Graham were all 4/5 stars-only Jamison has come close to disappointing
LB-Crable is the only highly touted guy, and is very good. David Harris was a 3 star.
DB-Leon Hall was a 4 star, first rounder. Donovan Warren is already awesome.
Michigan's success rate with 4/5 star recruits is actually very high. Doug Dutch and Gallimore are the only ones off the top of my head that completely flamed out (Bass doesn't count cause he got hurt)
9-4 next year under RRod > 11-2 next year under DeBord
@ JeremeyB
amen
None of us will know anything about next year because we could still retain MM and AA. Along with a few others that would greatly impact games outcomes. Also, there could be a few recruits that come in that could help out from day 1. So I do think it is very premature for us to start talking about wins and loses next year.
We should save the debate for later.
Does it change some of your opinions if we lose MM, AA, others, and not get Pryor and lose people like Mcguffie, "Boobs", etc?
On the other hand of that we could retain all of those players and land Pryor and the other WV recruits Rich Rod will bring in, along with keeping our current commits.
So I think those two polar opposite situations would greatly influence next season. We just need to wait it out and see.
I'm definitly leaning that we will retain more and land some big sleepers in this recruiting race. We will see....
I'm hearing/reading more than a few people dismiss RR's record in the Big East with the "that's not a physical conference" explanation.
I've been hearing the same damn thing said every year since I came up to school in '71 about the PAC-10. I can assure you that many, many UM fans back in the 70s and 80s were convinced UM was going to have its way with our Rose Bowl opponents because "the PAC-10 is a finesse conference" or "The PAC-10 can't stand up to our physical Big 10 play."
It's funny how we've lost so many games to these pantywaist PAC-10 teams, and I'm more than a little skeptical that the Big East is a weak little sister compared to the B-10.
AAB - Those are all good players, you are right. And, they have done some nice things. Included in those nice things are 7-5 and 8-4. I know, I know 11-2 almost national championship and all, but isn't that the anomolly these days, and that was not because of the players on the O, it was all D. I will take all players playing at a higher level. Which simply is not the case here.
If MM and AA return, and Rodriguez installs a shotgun, passing spread a la his tulane OC and Div II days, its hard to see too many teams stopping us....now, we can stop ourselves, I am looking at you Ryan Mallett and you traiterous Manningham hands.
Mallett with AA, MM, and any two of Matthews, Clemons, Hemingway, Slocum in a four wide set. Does that not make you just drool for next year.
I like what all of you are saying. I think the biggest thing besides Rich Rods offensive change next season will be the S&C. Believe me, the new guy will kick our boys into great shape and we will get all over the other team. Regardless of who we retain or get for next season. I guarantee a team that will physically dominat other teams all the way to the final whistle.
I'm really looking forward to next season. Michigan will be a much better prepared team along with playing a ton harder.
For Sale: 4 br/3-1/2 bath home in Barton Hills. Never lived in. DAMN STRONG new roof just installed. Contact email: TheHat@lsu.edu
JMAc- nice to see ya on here again. I agree with that offense set. Those receivers coupled with a good stable of running backs would be tough to stop. Brown, Minor, Mcguffie could all rotate and I think produce a great running attack.
Also, if we do land Pryor. I'd love to see Rich Rod run the Florida offense of Tebow and Leak. Sub those guys in and out during the game and giving the defense different looks.
Once again, we need to wait and see what happens. I hope we come out of this sitting pretty
ALL HAIL THE WINGED HELMETED WACKO NINJA OFFENSE!!!!
And yet another night on the horizon in danger of being spent scouring YouTube for WVU highlights.
Hey, Patrick White...he's pretty good.
Jamie...SLOCUM? Now just imagine the 300 pound fuck lion running a slant. You may have something!
MM's likely gone (espect to see him going down in traffic and stepping out of bounds a lot during the bowl game), but I think Arrington will be back and I liked what I saw out of Mathews. Hemingway looked decent in very limited playing time, and with spring practice and a summer to prepare under the new scheme, I expect a lot from our receivers next year.
Gah, next year can't come soon enough. I care about the bowl game and everything, but mostly I'm like "Seriously, when's it gonna be September!"
@Les Miles
HA! That is so great! Also, if the black box always survives a plane crash, why don't they just make the entire plane out of the black box?
"Mallett with AA, MM, and any two of Matthews, Clemons, Hemingway, Slocum in a four wide set. Does that not make you just drool for next year."
Marcus Slocum in a 4-wide set just shows how awesome the new S&C program is going to be.
MDan,
Thats what you get out of the Super Winged Helment Wacko Ninja Offense...anything goes....He cant be any worse a blocking TE than Butler, so maybe its worth a look?!?!
I obvioulsy meant Stonum, or whatever the stud WR's recruit name is...this alternating between work and posting finally caught up to me!
I think that too many predictions for next year are skewed due to Michigan's historic underperfomance versus its talent. Michigan just went 8-4 this year with every team knowing what plays were going to be run and when. In other terms, Michigan went 8-4 virtually on talent alone (slight exaggeration).
Yes, Michigan loses a few offensive players, but played a number of games without those players anyway.
I see several big difference next season than past seasons:
1) Michigan is going to be much more difficult to prepare for (we know what ND under Weis will do; but, ND will not know what M will do as well given only games against Utah and Miami) than has been under Carr.
2) Michigan will have much better team speed.
3) Michigan will not under-perform on a regular basis - something that we are all so used to and still seem to expect.
We will actually see talent being utilized and mis-matches exploited, not ignored.
I think a 2-loss season (not including bowl) most likely, with the out-of-conference games swept.
Nobody wants a piece of the Fuck Lion as he rumbles in the open field!!
Peanut Butter Jelly Time.
BTW
Where are all the apologies from those on this blog who:
a) Michigan is not an elite program, we won't get a good coach
b) Bill Martin sucks
c) Lloyd Carr is interfering and he sucks!
d) called clarkifromcanada "naive, delusional"
.
"PSU - They finally get rid of anthony morelli, the 2nd worst four year starter @ QB in college football history. The rest of their team will be 90% intact Not as likely a loss, but could be."
This is completely inept football analysis. Not only is Morelli NOT a four-year starter (try two-year), but the offensive playbook put a tremendous burden on a kid who was hung out to try by poor coaching, poor playcalling, and utterly terrible fair-weather fans. He had some very bright spots, but I wouldn't be surprised if you hadn't bothered to watch any Penn State game and simply took the fans' word on Morelli.
Blue, I couldn't agree more. Perfectly said.
@Enjoy Life
It's cool. Their silence is all that could be asked for. Bill Martin sleeps on piles of jewels and beautiful women. He doesn't need message board apologies.
Enjoy, I have publically and privately apologized.
But I spelled better in those aplogeeze.
Kige gives RR thumbs up...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H...h?
v=HYYJXVefpDM
I haven't read the comments, so apologies in advance. I saw the Penn State BSD post yesterday, and I thought it was monumentally stupid. Brian alludes to it. In one breath, BSD is saying RichRod will bolt for the NFL, but in the next breath is dismissing his 'gimmicky' offense that will take "years" to develop and thrive in AA.
Um, what NFL is Black Shoe Diaries referring to? Because the NFL that I know and love wants absolutely nothing to do with a spread guru. But, in Black Shoe Diaries' world, we're supposed to brace ourselves for RichRod's departure to the NFL, because apparently the NFL loves guys that have a 'gimmicky' offense that is 'still developing.'
Stay off the drugs, State College.
Rich Rod is not looking like an NFL spread right now, BUT:
If he tailors his spread to Mallett and over time our offense winds up looking like the Patriots, then wouldn't he been an NFL candidate?
I know this isn't the most likely scenario, but I don't know if it's impossible.
cfaller, I always thought the BSD guy was a pompous ass and not too football smart. I go with the RUTS guy, even though Brian's link to the dude takes me to Croatia.
Brian, for God's sake, don't concern yourself with what Michigan State fans have to say. At this point they're clearly delusional.
MSU still thinks they won this year.
There's an interesting piece about Coach Rodriguez on this Notre Dame blog, Irish Band of Brothers. How in the heck do these Domers think they are going to beat us, if they couldn't win against Carr? I'm not sure what's in their Kool-Aide, but it has to be doused with some acid, because they are just plain trippin'!
Mike Debord officially gone. Where's the champagne?
"Rich Rodriguez was only introduced as head coach two days ago, but already there is speculation regarding who he will hire to captain his defense after announcing Monday Calvin McGee -- his current offensive coordinator -- will join him in Ann Arbor."
I'm loving this Peanut Butter Jelly!
btw - great post up there Blue Durham, saved me the time to write the exact same damn thing.
"Seriously, when's it gonna be September!"
ummmm, cosign. i'm afraid of what the Spring game will be like too. 90,000? what about the construction? will they even play the game at the stadium? it HAS to be an open event, right? could they do it elsewhere?
the thing about PSU is that their QB play can't get worse (or drop off much) with whatever 4* guy replaces morelli. their WRs still scare me, but PSU refuses to use them. that Oline is mediosre at best. they lose Connor, but the Dline will be damn strong. PSU is a big ? next year along w/ MSU & Iowa.
and i just want to say that MDan in the RR era >>>> MDan in the LC era.
just the thought of TP in a M uniforn makes me want to come out of retirement in NCAA 0X. am i alone here?
MDan -
Thanks. I would actually be much more surprised if Michigan went into the OSU game with 3 losses than undefeated.
During the season we are going to see games that used to be close in the 4th quarter (which amounted to, what, about 3/4 of all games the past 5 years!) essentially over sometime in the 3rd quarter.
I suspect that after a few years of RR, people will realize how many great opportunities were lost in recent seasons.
It's too early to make predictions about next season. Our program is going to go through such enormous changes that what we see next season might be totally different than what we expect. We don't know who will start at QB (Mallett? Threat? A frosh?). We don't know if MM or AA are truly gone. We don't know how our OL will respond to a new OL coach and an entirely new S&C regimen that will (at long last) emphasize explosiveness, and so on.
I'm guessing we'll drop the OSU game, because it's on the road and OSU should be loaded. But beyond that, I truly have no idea what to expect, other than that our bowl streak should continue.
DanK, I have mellowed with age.
Honestly, who in the world thinks that the spread option would work in the pros? that is the biggest load of stinky stuff...he won't be leaving for the pros and thanks to Bobby Petrino, there probably won't be many, if any at all, even getting a cursory look from the pros anytime soon.
@ Meeechigan Dan...
While I don't do Champagne, I have popped the top on a nice ginger-ale and toasted the departure of Mike Debord, as well as the philosophy and spirit of the program as it was over the last few decades. I don't disrespect it, I honor it, but it was time for a fundamental change and it has happened.
Youre my boy Blue!
We missed out a LOT!
If RR gets poached by the NFL, it will be because he did an awesome job coaching Michigan. It would certainly suck to lose him, but I'd welcome the results that would precede any sort of NFL interest.
For the 10,000,000th time, RR is not married to the spread option. Sheesh. You would think it's like ethnicity or gender - unchangeable. His O will look like New England next year. Has to.
Next year really will usher in a new chapter of Michigan Football. How weird is it gonna be to see RR roaming the sidelines, and his team running the option in Adidas uniforms????
I can't wait..
re: RR bolting....think of the institutional support RR is getting from UM compared to WV. it's not just the stuff we arrogantly (and rightfully) talkabout..tradition, talented players, stadium ,exposure. i'm talking about the support from the AD. the stuff WV wouldn't give him. he flirted w/ bama last year and WV people took it the wrong way. look at the stuff he asked WV for this year after he talked to UM. they were nickel & diming RR, and all the stuff RR wanted was for the benefit of WV! bigger pool of $ for coaches, more GAs, more support to network HS coaches. he just walked into an unlimited resource pool at UM compared to where he's been. he'll be very happy here for a long time.
Agreed, prepare for 40+ catches for 4 wideouts from cocky Mallet and shotgun draws with speedy Carlos Brown. Unless Pryor shows up and is a larger, faster Tebow.
I meant spread
Someone just was taken away from Schembechler Hall in an ambulance...Did not see who it was
I am prepared to see a more balanced spread, WVU did show some I form with 3 wide at times and had success with big backs so Grady and Minor have a chance.
What would the depth chart look like in the 3-3-5?
BOY, uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugly.
What a great and novel idea...
run an offense based on the talent and skills of the current players. I mean just last Rose Bowl, I was hoping for some more shotgun snaps. Now all that and a PB&J sandwich.
Would anyone be *that* upset if coach Rodriguez was so successful the NFL came calling? My guess is it that it would take a pretty good run near the top for him to leave.
If we lose as many players this year as I think we will...I'm not counting on an OSU win vs UM or USC next year.
But, this was our "rebuilding year", so in Tressel we Trust.
Put me in the category of RR is a good hire. I suspect after the Miles f/u that Lloyd was quietly left out of the main conversation. This left the door open for a real change.
I hope everybody in the Big 10 gets better. I am sick of anything SEC related.
I don't see ND beating you next year either. They still have no defense.
Lucas-Perry picks Michigan. Will transfer from AZ, eligible next January.
The voice of reason needs to stfu because we lost to app state. RR could lose to pitt 6 out of 7 times and he'd still be better than Carr.
Can't believe the Big 10 let this guy not only officiate, but lead the crew?
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/ne...tory?
id=3161985
Way to go, commish. Didn't learn anything from that NBA scandal, eh?
"b) Bill Martin sucks
c) Lloyd Carr is interfering and he sucks!"
^^Just got back, but in reaction to the above post:
Nay! I refuse to apologize for leveling those two complaints. Bill Martin DOES suck. He admitted himself that he knew months in advance of Lloyd's official retirement that he would soon be facing a coaching search--yet managed to bungle every step of the "process" (including putting all faith in said 'process' as though it were some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy). That is, until MARY SUE COLEMAN got on the Batphone, swooped in, cut off Sailboat Bill's balls, and seized the wheel.
In the interest of full disclosure, I did complain about Mary Sue as well. But not for the same reasons as the above-mentioned stooges, and not in the same manner. I complained that she needed to take a more ACTIVE role, rather than deriding her administrative abilities as I did with Martin. She, not Martin or Lloyd, stepped up to the figurative plate.
As for Lloyd Carr, I will never again respect him as I did prior to this whole coaching debacle. I remember standing in the Rose Bowl in 2005 with a buddy of mine (obsessed UM Alum too) as Dusty Mangum's kick drained the final three seconds off the game clock and triggered a deluge of burnt-orange-ish confetti that rained upon my head while my hand was still scratching it...that friend of mine said: "That's it. I'm done with Lloyd Carr." He was clearly focused on Carr's decision to use his 2-remaining time-outs to ice the kicker rather than get the ball back with a minute to go, but still...it was his final straw. I wanted to cave at that point, but I did not. Instead, it took me another 2+ years to acquire a 'straw' for myself. Lloyd took care of that this month. Hell, I even threw pessimism to the wind after Appy State and hoped the rest of the season would be kind to Lloyd--sending him off in fine style. But now: to hell with him. And I hope people don't forget about his role in all of this. Whether or not you are/were a "Les Miles to Michigan" proponent, the very intrusion of Lloyd's personal bias and adherence to cronyism (Brady Hoke should never have even received a phone call) is unforgivable in my book. You don't do a former player/alum/Michigan Man like that. Especially when he's a top coach and did nothing but make his love for his alma mater explicit.
Soooo, I will repeat: 1) Lloyd interfered. And 2) Lloyd sucks. I will look back on his tenure and note his significant on-field accomplishments. I will even pay reverence to the way he truly upheld the values of what it means to be a “Michigan Man.” That is, until December 2007.
Here is the projected starters with a 3-3-5 alignment:
LE Tim Jamison
NT Terrance Taylor
RE Will Johnson
LOLB John Thompson
MLB Obi Ezeh
ROLB Brandon Graham
LCB Morgan Trent
WS Brandon Harrison
FS Stevie Brown
SS Charles Stewart
RCB Donovan Warren
The safeties will be huge weaknesses. Otherwise, we should be fine.
I am bemused by the OSU fans (and others) that are taking a single game (or 2-3) and extrapolating that RR can't win the big game. "Holy shit he lost a game, and his players looked like crap. He's a fraud".
Seems to me a certain team with a national championship on the line didn't show up last year. Wow, let's use that sample of 1 to say Tressel sucks.
Oh, wait he already won one? Wow, maybe just looking at 1 game is a bad idea. Tressel is obviously a fantastic coach whose team crapped the bed. He didn't coach his best game, his players didn't play theirs, and Florida came out fired up and played their best game of the year.
It happens in college (and even in the pros, just less often). Using a couple games to make such broad declarations is crazy. RR has a lot to prove, but his track record in aggregate is solid. Good hire, that we just hope works out - as is always the case when a school hires a new coach.
Ooh, "Wacko Ninja Offense" T-shirts please!
We will beat SC next year. You think we're losing talent?? You should see what THEY ARE losing to the NFL. Its ridiculous. I saw a mock draft last week and no less than 10 guys from SC in the top 60 drafted which is realistic. I wish I had the link. That said, I think RR was a good hire and I am anxious to see the rivalry escalate to another level of competition and see the Big Ten continue to get better overall.
Count this OSU fan as one who's impressed by the hire of DickRod (apologies to Orson). I'm sure that over the next few years parity will return to the rivalry, and that's as it should be. Unquestioned dominance isn't good for either team, and that's what would have continued to happen if we'd kept Cooper or you'd kept Carr (and probably if you'd promoted Debord). It should be said, though, that impressed doesn't = scared. We've got a pretty good coach ourselves.
I agree that all this business of projecting next season's record, depth charts, offensive/defensive sets, etc. is kind of silly. It'll be at least after Spring practice before anything along those lines can be known or even speculated about intelligently. And ultimately, it'll be at least 2009 before anybody knows what, if any, Michigan's "identity" under RR will be, given that next year's team will be made up almost exclusively of Carr's recruits.
I'm guessing that with the inherent differential in talent-attracting ability between WV and UM, he'll probably adjust his recruiting strategy - i.e. going for the best QB rather than the best RUNNING QB - and end up designing his offense in a given year to best fit the abilities of that year's personnel, like Tressel does. I doubt it'll be all-read-option-all-the-time.
Ben, I like it! You have Brandon, Johnny and Obi becoming lean and mean under the new S&C program. A little larger than he likes in the 3-3-5, but maybe that's the concession to the Big 10.
Three intelligent Buckeyes in a row...does.not.compute.
Just kidding. We all want to see the Big 10 - the cradle of football, not that sissy hot weather football - rise to dominance, and with Tressel, Zook, RR, Schiano at PSU shortly, Beiliema, Dantonio, even Ferentz...we could get there.
Chillmodious - where is there evidence that Lloyd tampered? Internet speculation and innuendo is all I've seen. I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt, and I don't think anyone on here knows what he said regarding Les Miles. Perhaps there were other influencers or reasons Miles wasn't fully pursued?
You also make assumptions about how Bill Martin and Mary Sue Coleman were interacting. Do you have inside info? Seems to me the job got done, and done well. A bit rocky to start, from our perspective...but then again not all the cards were on the table for us to see. Maybe Martin got lucky, or maybe his process did, in fact, work - despite fans and alumni with partial knowledge freaking out at every turn. I think at a minimum he and MSC adjusted well to what was probably a poor start to the process.
Ooh, "Wacko Ninja Offense" T-shirts please!
Gene | 12.19.07 - 6:28 pm | #
I prefer "Super Winged-Helmet Wacko Ninja Offense", myself. With a Karate-Kid-esque silhouette of a wolverine on a red sun.
I think the "Pat White injury/catastrophic breakdown against Pitt" scenario is less likely to occur at Michigan given that we tend to stack the position with 3 and 4 stars.
I would, however, like to see us get back to playing the backup QB more than one or two series-worth of run-lefts so that we aren't left with an inexperienced QB after an injury.
Everyone concerned about the (admitted) possibility of RR leaving for the NFL (spread offense be damned) should remember that Miles is still out there.
I certainly am not one of those morons assuming he'll show up this year or next or that he's waiting in the wings, but I do think that if the job opens up again, he'd have an easier time taking it. The timing and poor showing put on by the AD (at least early on in "the process) made for what was more or less of a perfect storm this year.
Gnarls Woodson said:
If RR gets poached by the NFL, it will be because he did an awesome job coaching Michigan. It would certainly suck to lose him, but I'd welcome the results that would precede any sort of NFL interest.
I think this is something that gets overlooked and ignored by the detractors, but also by Michigan fans. The only way RichRod leaves Michigan is if he's been enormously successful at Michigan, but the likelihood of him leaving is higher than it ever was for Carr, Moeller, or Bo. The primary reason he left his alma mater was because of the opportunity that the Michigan job offers him- one or more national championships, and the glory and prestige that comes with that. Who's to say what will happen if RichRod succeeds?
If the RichRod hire does pan out, however, I do wonder about the possibility of Michigan entering into more frequent coaching searches. We live in a new era where coaches are more willing and able to move. And while I really think RichRod is going to retire here, I can't really say for sure that 'he will never leave!' either.
How about this for a shirt.
FRONT: See Dick (male silouhette with Michigan shirt and clipboard). See Jane (female silouhette w/ opponent shirt).
BACK: See Dick spread Jane out - with a picture of M football player sprinting past a fallen opponent.
A bit crass maybe, but perfect for answering DickRod comments.
@Travis:
I agree with everything you said. I got a bit carried away at the thought of apologizing for how I felt about MSC and BM that I neglected to make uber-explicit the fact that these were MY personal reactions. More to the point (and this is the other side of your coin), we cannot say for sure that Lloyd did not tamper/interfere. As to giving him the benefit of the doubt, that was the real meat of what I was saying: i.e. in my book, he no longer gets that benefit.
If RR has an eye on the NFL he would be smart to keep Mallett and show what his offense can do without a running QB. He's not going to get there otherwise (at least in my mind).
Chillmodious -
You couldn't be more wrong about the process and most especially Carr. Anybody who knows anything about the inside workings of the program knows what Carr's role was. Those on the outside looking in, pinned something on Carr that came from MULTIPLE sources.
And cut the cronyism BS for once and for all. The only cronyism that entered the process was that the put Miles on a short list, that which leaked all over the press. Martin handled the process like a complete PRO.
Project Michigan offense in 2008:
QB Ryan Mallett
SB Brandon Minor
FB/TE Carson Butler
WR Mario Manningham (will probably leave)
Slot Greg Matthews
WR Adrian Arrington (may also leave)
LT Perry Dorrestein
LG Justin Boren
C David Moosman
RG Jeremy Ciulla
RT Steve Schilling
Typically, RRod likes the slot to be a RB/WR (think Charles Woodson) hybrid. Matthews is obviously not that guy. He also likes the FB/TE to be a ball carrier first, so Butler may not be a good fit either.
Thinking a little out of the box...
QB Carlos Brown
SB Kevin Grady
FB/TE Vince Helmuth
WR Greg Matthews
Slot Brandon Minor
WR Carson Butler
It should cause some debate at the minimum.
@Chillmodious
Fair enough. Seems harsh to me to hold Carr responsible for something he might have done without any evidence, but you are entitled to your opinion.
My opinion is that Carr always put M first, and at worst he would have told Martin that he didn't think Les Miles was the best choice. I think he's entitled to that opinion and I wouldn't consider that tampering. Obviously since they did end up pursuing (we think) Miles he couldn't have created that big of a stink. If anyone is to blame for listening to Lloyd it's Martin (and MSC).
I do think Carr began to slip a bit as a coach in the last 4-5 years. That's got to be hard for a coach to see, and it's not like he turned to absolute crap. I give him a lot of credit for realizing when he did and stepping down in a classy manner. I'm glad we aren't in the same situation as FSU and PSU with coaches that (in my opinion) have slipped but don't see it that way and will continue until they are dragged away.
Bottom line in my opinion is Carr was a very good (not quite elite) coach who brought UM a national championship, several Big 10 titles, and did it in a classy manner. He held on a bit too long, but in the end handled that well too. Unless someone proves otherwise he deserves all the benefit of the doubt.
"Martin handled the process like a complete PRO."
@Blue23:
You were making a lot of sense until you totally discredited your whole argument with that last sentence. I don't think any elaboration is required.
As to this: "Anybody who knows anything about the inside workings of the program knows what Carr's role was."
^^I suppose you know all about the inside workings. Are you Bruce Madej?
Oh dear. One of the dumbest posts my friends ever put on our blog gets pointed out by MGoBlog. Sigh.
RichRod is a great hire. Don't let that guy speak for OSU fans in general and MWB contributors in particular (not that there really are many anymore). Once again: great hire. Glad that's cleared up.
"Bottom line in my opinion is Carr was a very good (not quite elite) coach who brought UM a national championship, several Big 10 titles, and did it in a classy manner. He held on a bit too long, but in the end handled that well too."
@Travis:
Thank you for that counter-point perspective. I would agree with that too. I guess it was just the notion of apologizing to Lloyd. He should be touted for all the good that he did--yes. I just don't think we should alltogether absolve him of any blame with regard to the way this whole thing played out. Again, the key word is *I*
Cracvks me up to hear (sparty) Mike Valente on the radio talking about the hire and the state of michigan football.
He tries to act like he's partisan,but he hopes for nothing but the worst for Michigan football.He seethe's at the hire of rich rodriguez.
Any body remember Jammin Jamaal Holiway
From Oklahoma.Will be great seeing the Michigan quarterback jetting around the end like that.
ok done. too much for one day.
Arrington is a senior! How would he come back next year? As for Mallett, he will run his offense out of the shotgun like he is used to. He did it in high school, he will do it again at UM. I can see Minor in the slot/RB position for sure. We will have Helmuth or Mouton playing fullback. We will be a pass heavy offense with a definite threat of three tailbacks: Minor, Grady, Brown.
AA = RS Jr
Mouton = LB
Chillmodious,
I am not a Lloyd apologist by any means, but I still find it difficult to accept that Lloyd didn't have what's best for Michigan in mind at the beginning of the search. In my opinion...
1. Martin has had discussions with Kirk Ferentz for months regarding the job. Ferentz strang us along while he negotiated with Iowa to for a raise and some facilities improvements. The discussions were so advanced that Martin never considered a strong second candidate. He interviewed Debord, English, and Hoke as a courtesy to Lloyd.
2. After the initial news (Flightware night) broke, Iowa gave in and Ferentz, sensing the potential backlash, took himself out of running. Martin went to the name every Michigan grad has talked to him about: Miles.
3. Certain deep pockets got wind of the situation... Not wanting to lose their close access to the program, and knowing Miles will cut off all ties, went in full search and destroy mode regarding Miles' candidacy. That's when Martin went sailing and Herbie heard from that deep pocket.
4. Martin gets back, talk to Miles on the phone, and realizes the depth of the debacle. Not willing to anger the deep pockets and wanting to maintain control, Martin puts Miles off...
5. Martin then talked to the next name on his list, Greg Schiano, while poo pooing Miles' candidacy. Schiano then turned us down.
6. The deep pockets continue to trump Hoke's candidacy, while Mary Sue, angry from all the emails from alums, quietly took over the search from Martin.
7. Mary Sue secures a search firm. She then went to the "anti-change" deep pockets and secured concessions (we will hire someone better than Miles if y'all would shutup and get out of the way). She then talked Bill Davidson into funding another buyout, and talk to Miles again. At this point, Miles is the backup.
8. The search firm connects us to RRod, and the rest is history.
Ben from SF,
Very interesting lineups. I do think in the event AA and MM come back, we are going to be lights out in the four wide set with the new spread....but, i am very intruged by your out of the box lineup....one of my complaints of the last four years or so is not using all out talent and putting it out on the field....boy, with that lineup, you sure do solve that problem....any lineup that keeps Butler in the mix as a receiver, yet keeps him him away the line and blocking is off to a good start for me.
Any body remember Jammin Jamaal Holiway
From Oklahoma.Will be great seeing the Michigan quarterback jetting around the end like that.
Anonymous | 12.19.07 - 7:34 pm | #
^^^Three names for you
Dennis Franklin
Rick Leach
Michael Taylor
Steve Smith could run around and ran a lot of option as well.....so to did Jimmy Harbaugh.
Arrington is a redshirt Junior.
This old Wolverine played golf today in Florida with my Ohio State buddy. I accused him of "jumping ship" on the first tee because he had on the best looking maize and blue golf shirt. He said the Buckeyes are very worried about RR coming to Ann Arbor. His reply to my comment was, "Did you know Rodriguez is a Mexican(?) and I don't think he has a green card."
Can't wait to see Michigan in a "Wacko Ninja Offense..."
@ fabforeman
Don't come in here and pretend you know Michigan football when you think Mouton is a running back and Adrian Arrington is a senior.
You lost all cred.
Even if you came in here and said Jason Kates is overweight, I wouldn't believe you now.
I missed that! Mouton at fullback. Interesting. With JamieMac placing the fuck lion as a slot receiver, this is getting really whacko.
@Roger
"Did you know Rodriguez is a Mexican(?) and I don't think he has a green card."
Roger Burau
I sincerely hope you grabbed his driver and shoved it up his racist arse.
For the record, I tooooootally want a "Wacko Ninja Offense" t-shirt...
I really think I am onto to something though splitting Slocum out wide....this is the era of Wacko Ninja Football at the Big House after all!!!!
Once we hired Rod, the Sparty's should have simply unplugged their countdown clock.
I come close to tears in laughter just thinking about the EDSBS post on Marques Slocum's Fuck Lion. Some of those comments were platinum.
MDan,
Now that the playbook is open, we're all just drawing plays in the dirt, putting players where we want them.....its like Michgan Fantasy Football or something.
Rich Rodriguez is not a michigan man!!!!
where is the iso left and iso right???? the spread???? are you f***ing kidding me?!?!?!?
@Lloyd
RR will become a Michigan Man just as Fielding Yost did. When our RR O is up and running RR will become known as the Ghost of "Point a Minute" Yost. And may God bless his soul. I am still all tingly that we have RR.
Soooooo, whose excited that the bowl season begins tomorrow. Poinsetta Bowl. Navy vs Utah. Hey, it gives us a chance to scout next year's first opponent in the Utes. They got a junior QB who is very tough to defend.
Some Random Thoughts.
BILL MARTIN: Better to start weak and finish strong than vice-versa. Can happily return to his first love: building things and making $$$.
RICH RODRIGUEZ: Home Run hire: near perfect combo of age, experience, innovation and record of success (of all theoretically available candidates, only Meyer meets or exceeds). Could he bolt in a few years? To NFL maybe; that's life today. Main drawback: doesn't personally feel the UM-OSU rivalry ... yet.
UM FOOTBALL FUTURE: RR starts paying dividends right away in terms of passion, game prep, S&C, new schemes and recruiting buzz. After a year or two of adjustment, a 1990s FSU-type run possible.
12 visitors? 12 MFing visitors? looks like someone needs to start some intra-web commotion.
per scout: terrelle pryor to Michigan. is bringing 4 osu commits, 3 WV recruits. and alex legion. it's a lock, i swear.
Who's the idiot that said WVU "bent over backwards" for RichRod in terms of the facilities and such? The biggest reason he left Morgantown is because they came through on NOTHING that they promised him after he re-signed last year.
These are the facts. He didn't leave WVU because he's an opportunist and Michigan was irresistable(though it could have been a big reason..as it would be for most coaches when the frikken Michigan job opens up). He left Morgantown because his facilities still stunk, his coaches were not getting paid, and the other things he was promised were unfulfilled. WVU bent over backwards for him? Please.
Who's in?
http://www.zazzle.com/
wacko_ninj...171077349229540
Tried to post this before, I'll try again.
Who's in?
http://www.zazzle.com/
wacko_ninj...171077349229540
Oops. My bad...
I appreciate the updates. I must admit, I am a UM fan, Ann Arbor born, but live here in Northern VA, so I am not up on every fact, but do come to one home game a year. Why is Arrington listed as a Senior on their roster then?
DanK,
I dont see why we should even play the next few seasons; just give us three straight NC's and lets get on with our lives.
Fab,
I think they list your actual class on the roster absent of any redshirting....just a guess on my part, though.
I like the fact that Michigan's offense will for once be unpredictable. We have the talent to run or throw, it just always seemed I could call the play from the couch as soon as I saw the team line up. It will be nice trying to guess what is coming next. If I can tell what is going to happen, I know a defense that plays every week can figure it out.
Soooo, I guess that means nobody is excited about bowl week starting then....sigh....i was looking forward to a Fla Atlantic-Memphis breakdown for the NOLA Bowl Friday night.
Jamiemac,
Thanks for letting me know. Next year just got even more exciting for me then. I sure hope they both come back next year. I thought we all had high hopes this past season, having AA and MM come back will certainly be a treat. I don't think any college team has two corners good enough to cover both of them. I think between Arrington and Manningham, I think Arrington has proven himself to be the better of the two. He certainly wins in the hands department. If the team feels the same excitement the bloggers do, they will want to stay for next year just to see what is unleashed!
@JMac
Definitely excited about bowl week...but much more focused on the Pistons beating the Celtics tonight. They had to work for that one (although idiotic of the Celtics to foul Chauncey with
M lists academic status, not eligibility.
jamie mac...totally agree. honestly, i might come out of retirement in ncaa0X.
College football is college football and everyone will be watching whatever game is on tv. If there was such a thing as division 4 and there was a game on, we all would be watching it. Wait a minute, isn't MSU division 4?
Will Terrance Taylor be able to do what Alan Branch did for us? We will need a beast in the middle to plug up the run. As for eligibility goes, does that mean that Morgan Trent also has more eligibility? What about the guys on the line like Kraus?
Fab,
If they both come back, the sky is the limit for us with RR's four-wide, pass first version of the spread he ran at Tulane and the DII level.
AtlBlue,
Had it on. Took the points w/ Det. Great win....Boston got lucky w/ House hitting a trey and then Allen hitting a deep one w/ guys all over him....Pistons D that whole second half throttled Boston.....We just saw a eastern conference preview tonight, and suddenly I like the Pistons chances, home court or not.
no, yes, and i think no
Thanks Dank. I guess the D line will look ok, but the O line will be young. I guess that is a good thing with young lineman. We don't have to unteach too much with a new system.
oh the 'stons game is over...that explains the visitor flux.
I assume Jenkins for osu goes pro as he is a first round pick right now, so Trent and Warren will form the best CB duo in the Big 10.
I dont think Taylor can break out and dominate singularly like Branch did, but I do think our DLinemen and OLinemen will be transformed after one season of RR's strenght and conditioning program.
DanK, at this point we can put whomever we want on the field and kick ass....I was flanking Slocum out wide earlier today for God's sake....Wacko Ninja Offense, bitches.
mgoblue,
I like the concept w/ wacko ninja offense, but maybe too busy of a slogan....just keep the phrase wacko ninja offense, maybe w/ some sort of UM design? Not much of a t-shirt designer, so take my insight w/ a grain of salt.
yes...any thoughts on mallet @ CB? he could really defend the jump balls in the endzone.
Yeah, think its a little bit wordy.
After a year of RR's S/C, Mallett will have the best make up speed in the big 10, so he will be able to cheat on the run as well.
Better polish that Butkus Trophy for Ezeh also.
Does "The Machete" have more eligibility as well? It would be nice to have him back and healthy. Maybe we could just have Mallett dribble the football down the field. He has shown some skill at picking up his own fumbles this year.
You guys give me the impression UM had strength and conditioning practice at Burger King this year. Was it really that bad? Is RR really going to change things that much?
Don't know if this has been posted here (or if anyone cares), but rumor is that 2 OSU players, including starting DB Donald Washington, are suspended for the NC game.
Fab,
I'm surprised Beilin had not thought of using Mallett's skill on the hardwood after watching him dribble the football....he's probably waiting to unleash that secret weapon until the big 10 season.
Nothing should surprise you coming out of OSU as far as shadiness is concerned. I believe it.
Another t-shirt...
"I'm not fumbling. I'm DRIBBLING."
-Ryan Mallett
Run with that T-shirt!!!! I'll buy three!!!!
Is there a rule on what color the football has to be? Could he play with an orange ball?
Fab
I am not an expert there, abut basically its an outdated program that relies on machines, rather than free weights. We and Penn State are the only two major programs that still adhere to the old fashioned principles, and thus we get physically pushed around a lot and run out of gas a lot in the fourth quarter.....and really would defer the issue to others who follow it better.....although earlier in the week Brian posted a link where Ryan Mundy, a UM transfer to WVA desrcibed the contrast and said how much more he got out of WVA's program.
JM<
I read that post. Well, it is time to step up to the next level then. We should get our football players to go to a couple of wrestling practices. They would be in shape in no time. It really is an exciting time to see so much change happening with the football program. Maybe we will play to win instead of building up a lead and running out the clock.
I'd like to see RR do something to fire these boys up all year. Maybe he could light the fire of the rivalry and show the UM faithful he is here to win "The Game" and instantly become a "Michigan Man." Just like Tressel guaranteed a win, what if RR showed up to every practice wearing a red sweater vest? He would learn very quickly how everyone hates that sweater vest!
Been busy a while. MNC and all, ya know. How has the coaching search been going? Just curious on whether you got Kirk Ferentz all signed up so I can keep beating his ass.
What? What's this about Rich Rodriguez? You've gotta be kidding me. And Terrel Pryor too? Oh shit. Come on now. I don't pay attention one week and this shit happens? Fuck it. Just fuck it. We are so done.
Can someone tell me how an in shape Grady might fit into RR's offense? Is he in play or are we writing him off.
What were his main attributes as a high schooler that had him ranked so high? I think his brother is incredibly quick on the hardwood. I remember him as a fumbling, slower, out of shape Mike Hart, but he can't be that bad.
Tressel,
haven't you also been busy suspending DB's for the big game....wonder what those crazy kids did?!?!?!
Here is a recent ESPN report on DickRod starting @ Michigan
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/ne...tory?
id=3162251
could somebody please fill me in on my boy Slocum and his ability to tackle drunk bitches
@ old fan
In high school, Kevin Grady was a pretty speedy bowling ball of a player. He ran over a lot of tacklers and he has a low center of gravity, which should make it difficult to bring him down.
Grady could fit into Rodriguez's offense. He's very comparable, in my opinion, to Quincy Wilson. Wilson had 1,300 yards or so in his senior season and averaged almost 5 yards per carry.
I think a lot of people are writing him off because we haven't seen him play in a year. He supposedly had won the main backup role in spring practice, but he's NEVER shown in games that he has the big play ability that Brown and Minor have shown at different times.
The problem is, nobody paid attention to WVU until Pat White and Steve Slaton showed up. They started winning more games and now people think that Rodriguez's offense REQUIRES speedy slashers like McGuffie and Brown when, in fact, it doesn't.
@ fabforeman
Trent - 1 year left
Arrington - 1 year left
Manningham - 1 year left
Kraus - done
Better polish that Butkus Trophy for Ezeh also.
not *that's* just ridiculous.
not = now
oh yea, and this:
[M] hasn't fired a coach for on-field performance matters in 40 years is truly a roiling pressure-cooker of a situation.
i think it's actually closer to 80 (kipke). Bump resigned/retired, iirc. similar to LC i suppose.
Maybe we could call him Battleship Bill to make up for all this?
@ Magnus,
Great analysis as always. Much appreciated.
It is good to see that actual analysis has replaced some of the junk posted here. The traffic is incredibly down though. I think I see why the MSM stirs up controversy for ratings. There were more than 31 visitors at 4 AM a week ago. Anyway, analysis is always appreciated.
DanK,
Denying Ezeh the Butkus could get you kicked out of the Michigan Super Fan Club......Da Wolverines!!
No problem.
Speaking of analysis...
I'm in the midst of playing the 2012 season on "NCAA Football 2008."
McGuffie broke his collarbone returning a punt in the sixth game. I smell a 2012 disaster.
I bet he was fast as heck before he did though; 4 years under Barwis? McGuff probably broke that collarbone from his own speed alone...
Yeah...it was just the wind pressure from running so fast.
When he runs, it's like re-entering Earth's atmosphere after a visit to the moon. Minus the space shuttle.
Who would win in a fight McGuffie or a Hurricane.....but the Hurricane's name is Hurricane McGuffie.
Speaking of Grady, big backs can certainly be effective in the spread option. Just look at what Jorvorskie Lane has done at Texas A&M.
I don't think that Grady can be a feature back, but when teams overload to stop something else (at A&M it's Goodson, at Michigan I think it will be the pass) a bowling ball up the middle is a great way to pick up an almost effortless 8-11 yards. If he works hard and buys into the system, I have to believe that Rodriguez is more than capable of using him as a weapon.
Ack, pthooey. It does look like we lost a cornerback. But, I might add, Chekwa is pretty good.
http://www.columbusdispatch.com/
...osu_corner.html
In other news, my little sister is pregnant
OK, here's my own T-shirt design.
http://www.zazzle.com/
super_wing...331654091557774
So Mike Patrick finally got ahold of you...
Is Grady a big back, a scat back, a power back, a fast back, a quick back. I know his size and I have watched him play, yet still don't know the answer. He seemed to be a power runner in a small body.
A bowling ball seems to work if you are Ironhead Heyward. Wasn't Grady 4 inches shorter than his high school bio said? I would hope that he would lose 20 pounds and become a quick back. But I don't know if he has that in him. Did he gain weight coming into college and will the new sand C system help him.
Magnus, what does NCAA football 2008 have to say about this? Is there a fasting button.
sand C = S and C as in strength and conditioning
Grady has tremendous size and speed, but his technique is awful. He is not like a bowling ball b/c he doesn't keep his legs under him and his head up. Also, he can't hold on to the ball. I think he has the talent to be a feature back (I think he probably is the most talented back on the roster), but I don't know if he is going to "figure things out." If he does, he could be a viable 1st option.
The bigger question, boys and girls, is how RR will utilize Christian Wilson--an H back.
Grady is a serial fumbler.
Yes, Grady is an under the radar fumbling super villan:
FUMBLOR
If we get Terrelle Pryor, we can run a dual qb system with Mallet as our feature qb and Pryor having a role like Tebow did a year ago.
If you look at the reputation and hype surrounding Kevin Grady coming in, his performance prior to his injury makes him the most overrated and disappointing Michigan player in a long time.
Perhaps this is partially due to the world-class S&C program Michigan has saddled its players with, but Mike Hart has done pretty well in the same program.
Grady is not real quick to the hole, has shown little ability to make any moves when he's in the hole or immediately beyond the LOS, and has not shown anything more than average speed in the open field. Ironhead Heyward he's not, either.
The only question I've had is whether he's the kind of back who needs a lot of carries to get into an effective groove. I can't fault the coaching staff here, though; Hart was immediately effective from the first time he was given an opportunity, and Grady never has been.
Maybe he will benefit from a new scheme that gets him the ball in space with more regularity, along with a new S&C program to improve his quickness.
@mgobleu
I like it, however allow me to offer some suggestions:
- On the front, have the text be "In Rod We Trust"
- On the back, have the text be "I, for one, welcome our new Wacko Ninja Offense Overlord..."
Either that, or what Jamie Mac said. Keep It Simple.
Nice hire fellas. I thought Brian Kelly was the best choice but RR is an incredible hire. I think he is a much better coach than Miles.
cfaller,
Any luck scoring me UM-Miami tickets?
@Don
Perhaps this is partially due to the world-class S&C program Michigan has saddled its players with, but Mike Hart has done pretty well in the same program.
I would remind you that Mike Hart's only injury-free season was his freshman year, when he was least exposed to our "world class" S&C program. One of the primary purposes of a S&C program is to help prevent injury. I don't think you can point to Mike Hart as an example of a successful S&C program, given the # times he was injured over his career.
@Williams
Umm, no. Sorry. And I didn't realize I had promised those. I'm not local, so I would be no help.
http://www.jibjab.com/sendables/
...nBP5CkeYKlGXp5m
You know in re-reading the comments from rivals blogs and such, I laugh even more today. I find it funny that the only critique to suggest a specific other coach was the one that said we should have hried Karl Dorrell or the one comment who said if we truly were an elite program that valued tradition we would just hired from within.
Can you imagine if we had done either of those, how much mockery, from this board and throughout the college football land, would have ensued.
I find some of that commentary to be among the worst ananlysis of a sporting situation that I have seen in a long long time.
the comments at WCH are amazing...people alledging that Lucica can't recruit. that is the single most ridiculous statement....evah.
for those who don't know....it's like saying pete carroll can't recruit. no hyper-bowl, honest.
All I will remember of Mike Hart is watching him limp to the sideline after every play and lose to OSU 4 times. Better win that bowl game mikey.
My thing is, I just don't understand the criticism of RichRod's abilities as a coach. Haters say his success in the Big East is because he plays in a weak conference, yet he himself has generally lowly-regarded recruiting classes year after year. And he generally beats teams from the "big boy" BCS conferences when he plays them.
Part of me wishes this transistion didn't occur until after the WVU/OU game, because this coaching change gives the 'Eers an excuse to bag their BCS game with the Sooners who are (A.) a very good football team to start with and (B.) extremely pissed off for being passed over for the BCS championship game. If the 'Eers lose the haters are going to be out in full force telling us what a bill of goods we've bought. If the 'Eers win it's clear that they didn't need him (since he's not coaching their bowl game) and that OMFG he was the reason they lost to Pitt.
It's a no-win situation until September when we line up and blow everygoddamnbody off the line.
I'm still stuck on the BSD quote Brian highlighted in his post where they wonder what happens if he ignored time honored traditions or fails to speark of yost and bo in reverential terms......what traditions are out there that he might be ignoring? Other than winning and filling up the Big House, what traditions do we really have. Its not like he's going to change the lyrics to the Victors or something. Maybe he stops the band from playing Bullwinkel and Tempation, I dont know? Do we even speak of yost and bo in reverential tones? I think they're just lookinf for any way to critic this and going with it.....good to know Drew Sharp is out there giving writing and ananlysis lessons to bloggers.....hopefully, Brian skips that seminar, though.
Mike Hart is a Saint. If we had a ring of honor at Michigan Stadium, I would start the campaign to get his name and number on it today. he has pretty much been the one silver lining of this football team for the last 4 years. He's probably the last player Michigan has had since Woodson that has warranted my Michigan Football Mancrush. you gotta cut him a break. I blame Gitt and our lame S&C program for his injuries. Think of how many rushing records he might have broken and how great Michigan could've been the last 4 years if he had been injury free his whole career. GO BLUE!
Johnny,
Throwing out our specific situation, thas really one of the bigger subplots of the whole bowl season. How will teams do w/o the coaches who have guided them all season or how will they do. Starting tonight w/ Navy it seems like there's a lot of teams playing either w/ a coach in his alst game like lloyd or with an interim because the former guy has been fired or left for another job.....I know this happens a bit every year, but it seems above the norm this season....tonight there's Navy, but you also have Arky, UCLA, WVA, Tamu, UM, So Miss, Ga TEch....that 1/4 of the games with this intriguing emotional backdrop for those teams....I wonder if those games we should handicap differently because of it.....not to mention, there are still job available, so will guys like Peterson at Boise, Holz at ECU and others get tossed into the rumor mill and how will that impact motivation.
All I will remember of Mike Hart is watching him limp to the sideline after every play and lose to OSU 4 times.
That's all you'll remember about Mike Hart? That's disappointing. I'll remember him as one of the fiercest competitors and greatest leaders the football team has ever seen. Sure the results while he was on campus weren't what we've all hoped for, but he will be sorely missed.
I blame Gitt and our lame S&C program for his injuries.
You blame Gittleson for ankle injuries? I think his system is outdated and clearly showed from a speed, stamina and general strength standpoint, but to start blaming him for ankle injuries is ridiculous.
Football players hurt knees and ankles even when in good condition. Let's focus on what the new SC guy can improve, but he cannot prevent ankle injuries and he will not help Christopher Reeve walk again.
"I don't think you can point to Mike Hart as an example of a successful S&C program, given the # times he was injured over his career."
My intention was to say that Hart has done pretty well in spite of the S&C program, but I guess I wasn't really clear.
I agree that S&C should ideally help to prevent injuries, but Hart's injury this year was primarily the ankle, wasn't it?. I'm far from any expert in the field of S&C, but I'm a bit skeptical that an ankle sprain can be laid directly at the door of a crappy S&C program.
Regardless, I ain't contesting you or anyone else that our S&C has been a bigass anchor for our players to drag around for a long time.
I bet the impact of the new regimen will not be fully evident until late in '08 or perhaps '09, but at some point we will hear Herbie or Musberger or Fowler or some other announcer say something to the effect of,"folks, this is not your dad's Michigan team anymore, slow-footed, plodding, and prone to running out of gas in the fourth quarter. They show a quickness and explosiveness and a stamina that we've never seen before in the Wolverines."
I can't wait.
I am considering trying to find a job in Ann Arbor once i graduate to stick around and watch the Rod Squad in person for a decade or so.
...help Christopher Reeve walk again.
now that's a challenge for any S&C coach...
1) reanimate deceased tissue.
2) teach former corpse, who was paralyzed before death, to walk again.
talk about publication potential...
who's Lucica?
Now I have to learn a new playbook for NCAA 09
I'll remember Mike Hart for, among many other things, the fantastic freshmen season. Not many freshmen have had that kind of an impact on the big 10 and he helped carry us to the big 10 title, which remains our most recent championship. And, I'll never forget the moment of silence kneel down after MSU. Absolutely priceless. In a season where it was hard to wear you maize and blue without receiving scorn and laughs, he flat out stood up for us all in that moment. Some didn't like that move, but I loved it.....and, frankly, goes to show that UM has many rivals per year that it needs to fry.
re: 10:29am comment, eh that's just stupid. yes i agree that UM couldn't elevate from a "good" to a "great" program the last 4 years, but - i hardly blame hart for this. without hart, i think the discussion wouldn't be "good" or "great", but instead "fair" or "mediocre".
so many games we would have lost without hart, can't even count. ask sparty about if he made a difference the last 4 years. ask PSU. crap, remember the first game hart played - vs SDSU? we very likely lose that game had hart not gone in, i think people tend to forget how close that game was. if hart wasn't here the last 4 years, i think we're looking at 1 or 2 more losses per season ie with grady in there instead of hart.
I like Hart, I think he was a good RB, and a great leader for the team.
I'm just wondering - would people be fawning over him any less if he were 6'2", 210 lbs.?
DanK- the Christopher Reeve thing was a dig at Democratic Presidential Candidate John Edwards who said in 2003 that if he is elected President, Christopher Reeve would walk again.
The point was that S and C can only take you so far, and our players will still get ankle and knee injuries because, well that's what happens in football.
Lucia (correct spelling, my bad) is the Minn hockey HC. off topic, but it was on the mgolicious sidebar.
What I remeber most about Hart is knowing he was going to be stopped for a 3 yard loss on a zone left play that the defense knew was coming , and see him gain 6 yards. Every time.
Speaking of our new S&C overlord, Mike Barwis, has anyone seen anything that says concretely he's coming to Michigan? I know he's putting down pretty substantial roots at WVU and he seems to run a mini-empire there. I'm very hopeful that RR's comments in the presser and the story in the Charlestown paper indicate Barwis is headed to AA, but I have yet to see anything approaching the certainty of Magee and Gibson.
Im still saying, all I'll remember is Mike running his mouth constantly, and losing every big game hew as ever in, i.e. OSU and all the bowl games, a combined record of 0-7 hopefully soon to be 1-7 but still, just didn't get the job done, chris perry is a better back in my mind
there are people saying he might stay at WV if he gets total control (of S7C i guess? he doesn't now? IDK)...i think i saw that on a WV board the other day.
also, VB has a story about RR dropping everyone on the M staff now. that might be a problem for bbcar & matrix....
I apologize if someone already posted this link...
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.d...089/1054&&
imw=Y
it's hard to go 0-8 in ur bowl games and osu for your career and be mentioned as one of the greats. people will forget about hart in 5 years specifically because he didn't win anything. yeah he could make something out of nothing, but i bet I could run behind big JL my entire career and have some success. im not trying to bash him because hes a great guy, but he's going to be a 2nd day draft pick, prob never play a down in the league and forgot about in a few years.
For instance, Hart clearly had a better career than Chris Perry (much of this is because Perry spent 2 years as a backup) but look at Perry's senior year:
338(!) carries, 1674 yards, 18 TD, 5.0 y/c. 44 catches, 367 yards (8.3 y/c) and 2 more TDs. He was the Big 10 MVP, finished 4th in the Heisman, and won the Doak Walker.
EVERY SINGLE one of those numbers is better than Hart's career high in any of them. Perry was, as I recall a fiercely strong leader, and team captain.
I'm not saying he had a better career - he didn't (though much of that had to do with opportunity) - but I think we lionize Hart because he's tiny, at the expense of remembering some other backs.
Ohio St DB's suspended.....shocker?
nope.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/bo...tory?
id=3162942
DanK: VB = Victors Board?
UM,
why all the negativity? Like I said before, he was pretty much the one silver lining over the last 4 years if you dont count Braylon's senior year. i agree he may not be the greatest michigan running back of all time but you gotta give credit where credit is due. he is top rushing yards and attempts in michigan football history which is very impressive seeinf as how he only had one injury free season in his 4 years. The little man is a badass. GO BLUE!
varsity blue
but i bet I could run behind big JL my entire career and have some success.
Did you actually watch any Michigan football the last four years?
Mike Hart made more out of nothing than any running back in M history including when Jake Long was injured for long stretches.
Remarkable.
I guess no one here remebers CP fumbling. ALOT.
Hart. Not. So. Much.
\I think we lionize Hart because he's tiny, at the expense of remembering some other backs.//
I think we lionize Hart because he's a fiery kind of guy who stands about 5'8" but plays like he's 6'5". And he speaks his mind, which can be refreshing (and unfortunately a little embarrassing under the wrong circumstances).
Jamie Mac: I am seriously hoping that WVU manages to get Chris Petersen to replace RichRod. I would've liked Petersen at UM, too. Those poor bastards really need to catch a break. They've had arguably the finest three years in the history of their program just smash to pieces since this year's Pitt game. Losing a guy like RichRod could be enough to turn them into Georgia Tech, results-wise.
i could see hart being remembered as a ron johnson type....great back who played at a time when they didn't have much success.
putting the 1-7/0-8 on hart is a bit much. but best back ever? probably not. willie heston, hands down.
J. lichty,
exactly! all the more reason why we should be showing Hart some love. I'm not saying he's the best ever, just maybe one of the top 10.
@chitownblue
I think we lionize Hart because he's tiny, at the expense of remembering some other backs.
Speaking for myself, I lionize Hart because he came out of f--king nowhere and led the team from his freshman year on. I don't care if he's 5-10 or 6-1, because most times on TV you can't really notice the difference anyway.
But a guy who starts off 5th or lower on the depth chart, but then takes the starting job by pouring his heart and soul into his job? As a guy who also was an afterthought on a M athletic squad, I've got a soft spot for that. Yeah, I love that guy, and his diminutive stature has nothing to do with it.
OK, yeah, I read that yesterday. I don't put a lot of stock in it. Chengelis seems to get her info from sources close to the program who are predictably going to be down on the new coaching staff shakeup. "Clean house" could mean dumping the whole staff or dumping 2/3 of the staff.
1)heston
2)harmon
3)wheatley
4)hart/morris
5)perry/Atrain/ron johnson?
you know it's a tough call when your top 5 has 8 guys in it.
Biakabatuka?
I liked Ricky Powers, too.
Mike Hart is one of the top five all running backs to ever play at Michgian. Football is a team game. His coaches (as LLoyd has all but admitted) did not put the TEAM in a position to win.
I would put Hart in company with the likes Jamie Morris, Chris Perry, Tim Biakabatuka, and Anthony Thomas without batting an eye.
"but he's going to be a 2nd day draft pick, prob never play a down in the league and forgot about in a few years."
Wanna bet?
Leroy Hoard and Jerod Bunch?
those just happen to be the first Michigan players I remember. I'm in my 20s.
I also remember Ricky Powers.
Runnin' Ricky powers. Long strider. Looked alot like Marcus Allen when he ran. Made it look like he was running slow, even though he was running away from people.
my main squeeze- rob lytle- the most underrated player in michigan history and one of the greatest running backs-
Boles, Hoard and Bunch were good, not the great feature backs that I would put much higher on the list.
Wheatly got more headlines because of his flat out speed, but he was not a good every down back. He would frequently go for no gain, no gain, 60 yards, which beefed his stats, but made him a less effective every down back. I thought that Biakabatuka overshadowed him by the end of their college careers.
My top five would obviously include Heston and Harmon (wayyy before my time). Then would have three of Jamie Morris, Hart, Perry or A Train. That is excellent company.
yes I will bet that hart doesnt see the field in the pros, hes too small and too slow for the NFL
OK, I just did some subject line reading at the Rivals premium board and it would appear that Barwis coming to AA is solid.
At the risk of starting a flame war, I was never really that high on Chris Perry. Ever.
He just never impressed me until his senior year against Sparty (45+ carries, or something like that?), and by then I had seen too much of Perry that made me go 'eh.' I always felt Perry represented a time when our recruiting and player development got screwed up (Fargas, Baraka?, etc.) to the point that we were forced to start Perry.
He did a pretty good job overall, but I've always felt that if he was a little older or younger, he would have been a career backup. Ok, flame me now.
yes I will bet that hart doesnt see the field in the pros, hes too small and too slow for the NFL
Disagree, he is strong and can hit a hole quickly. Will be an effective NFL back.
and hart didn't come out of no where. he has state records in NY for the most TD's scored and various other awards, we knew he was coming and was good, but he just isn't in my UM top 5.
NFL LB's will hit that hole a LOT quicker that MH and it's not gonna be good news for him. even AD adrian peterson gets stuffed at the line sometimes
DanK,
nothing is off topic on this board......trouble recruiting hockey at minnesota.....who writes this stuff! I certainly like the list, but haven't you learned anything from espn? If they didn't play in their era, they cant be anywhere near a best of list and certainly not holding down the top two spots!!
Hart is lionized because of his size, the freshmen year he had and the marked difference in how the team performed with him and without him the following year in 2005.....cant blame him for the 2006 OSU loss, but its too bad that injuries really hindered him for two full seasons at UM.....he just was not that effective this year after that Purdue game and thats too bad to see a career end that way.....i hope he has the wheel healthy to show his stuff in the bowl game.
I'm not arguing that Hart is one of the best 5 backs we've had - clearly, that's the case. I'm just saying that if you think Hart had a singularly large amount of heart, you haven't been watching Michigan backs very long.
I don't mean to constantly talk Perry, because I don't even neccesarily think he's better than Hart, but I remember him sending his backups back to the bench when he could barely stand up vs. MSU in 1993 (51 carries, I think?). Lots of guys had heart, and lots of it.
There will be a number of differences in the look of the team due to RR’s hire, and I’ve discussed a few above. There is much anticipation of what a new S/C program will due for team speed, but another benefit will be endurance.
How many times during the past 5-6 years have we seen Michigan be gassed in the 4th quarter? In my opinion, this has resulted in a few losses due to the defense not being able to shut the other team down.
In WVU’s 2005 playbook, the 5th and last objective (and also their motto) is that they will be:
“The hardest working, most disciplined, best conditioned team in America”
When Bo Schembechler arrived at Michigan in 1969, he took over a team that was lacking in S/C. His camps were brutal, and at first resulted in several players leaving the team. Hence the sign he had put up in the locker room “Those who stay will be champions.”
I hope and suspect that the same kind of thing is going to happen this year under RR.
And I suspect the results will be a strong effort in the 4th quarter. Another nice benefit from this hire and new S/C program.
so off topic but........it looks like TP is gonna be at OSU after all...
I cant seem to settle on a top-5 list, but, I am with cfaller. Chris Perry, as good as he was, would never make my list.
Who cares if hart does not play in the NFL, we're talking about performance at Michigan....Jamie Morris would make any legit top-5 list at UM, IMO, and he was not an NFL player.
@UM
and hart didn't come out of no where. he has state records in NY for the most TD's scored and various other awards, we knew he was coming and was good, but he just isn't in my UM top 5.
Umm, yeah, that registers a 'BFD' at Michigan, where we always have backs that set a bunch of records in high school. And I say again, Hart was either #5 on the depth chart, or wasn't even listed on the depth chart when he came in. Look it up.
He came out of nowhere. And he set the career rushing mark. That counts for something.
For the record, here are my Top 5 Backs:
1. Tyrone Wheatley
2. Tshimanga Biakabatuka
3 (TIE). Anthony Thomas and Mike Hart
5. Jamie Morris
Hart attended Onondaga Central High School just outside Syracuse, New York where he set the national career record for rushing touchdowns (204) and finished second in career rushing yards (11,045)
thats a little more than ur average michigan RB commit or anyone for that matter I mean come on.
National records
The guy who runs for more touchdowns than any other high school player EVER and is second on rushing yards didn't "come out of no where" sorry cfaller but i think you're wrong there
Mike hart will play in the NFL. He won't start and be a feature back but he is smart, tough, and a great blocker. Guarantee he is in the league
TP going to OSU?
@ UM: There were concerns about the level of competition and his size. Hence, the 3* rating by all major recruiting services. Lemming pegged him higher, but had him at CB of all things. He was lightly regarded and lightly recruited in terms of major DI prospects. Is the all time leader in rushing yards at DIII better than #50 at DI? What matters are measurables and level of competition and there were significant questions about both with Hart in HS.
I seem to remember a great college player (who torched us) year in and year out who won the heisman and is undersized for his position.........oh yeah troy smith, mr 5th rounder, not gonna see the field unless 2 other guys go down in front of him. mike hart will have a similar NFL fate
Funny that Troy Smith may start this weekend jackass.
@UM
Let's stop this silly fight right now- where was Mike Hart on the depth chart when he started his freshman year? Who was he behind? How many carries did he get prior to the San Diego State game in his freshman year? For that matter, how many carries did he have in the actual San Diego State game?
Answer these questions, and you'll understand what I mean when I say 'he came out of nowhere.'
yeah because two guys went down. jackass.
guess you didn't read that part of my comment? or are you just an idiot?
No, actually cause his team stinks and he led them on some decent drives in spot duty... The Ravens need to give him a legitimate look. Just like Mike Hart will get. And there is a decent chance that he will take that opportunity and run with it. He's been listening to people like you kill him for being "too small" etc his whole life.... He's done pretty well in my book.
Go troll somewhere else
I've heard Hart's name mentioned a lot on Chicago Bears talk radio as a desirable draft pick, and god knows he'd play here...they don't really have a lot of other (good) options.
@UM
Well, I guess I'm just an idiot, because I don't see where you talk about Mike Hart's spot on U-M's depth chart when he came in, and how in your opinion his rapid rise up the depth chart did NOT mean 'he came out of nowhere.' I'd love to see what you had to say about that.
Please point me to the appropriate comment (timestamp?) and I'll take a look at it. Thanks.
it's not about size in the NFL, look at Bob Sanders, it's about SPEED, pure speed, which hart doesnt have, how many times have you seen him caught from behind? A LOT.
rob lytle averaged 5.9 yards per carry and lost 4 games his entire career. he left school as the career leading rusher and showed as much leadership and class as hart.
hart will play in the nfl- not start but play because he doesn't fumble and he doesn't go down on the first hit. the bears coulduse him instead of cedric benson- if hart had any type of break away speed we would not have lost as many games and he would be an nfl start.
that was nfl star not start
UM- you know nothing, i'm done with you. That last comment was borderline retarded.
Meechigan -
Dont insult the retarded.
what that the NFL is about speed? are you kidding me, do you watch the NFL/combine or anything. do you know why the option doesn't work in the NFL? oh yeah, speed kills thats why, where are your relavent comments?
Any evaluation of Mike Hart's overall awesomeness and place in the pantheon of great UM backs needs to take into consideration:
1. Dude just does not fumble.
2. Dude is an excellent blocker.
3. Dude is highly motivated and motivates others.
4. Has a backstory that kicks Rudy's lame-ass legend to the curb.
And yeah, he was kind of good at gaining yardage. But when you compare him to others also good at gaining yardage, remember those to compare those four points above too.
Just sayin'.
Chunks hearts Hart.
or are you arguing against what I said about Hart not having break away speed and getting caught from behind? I'm not following here...
What about great UM RB's who kicked ass in their time, but have no chance at making anyone's top 5?
Butch Woolfolk, Rob Lytle, Billy Taylor, Lawrence Ricks, Ed Shuttlesowrth, Jon Vaughn, Harlan Huckleby....we can go on and on.....a lot of the RBs had to share carries with other feature backs back in the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s.....those guys were studs too, as much as Perry and Hart.....I'll still take the Tony Boles, Leroy Huard, Allen Jefferson trio with a little Jerrod Bunch as a freshmen mixed into the group and school all you fools :)
i honestly don't think michigan will lose more than 3 games next year including the bowl game, just wait and see the wonders of an amazing S&C program, it's a huge reason USC and tOSU are so successful
UM -
I think he believes that players like Jerome Bettis prove there are exceptions to the neccesity for speed in the NFL.
Im pretty sure Alstodt (sp?) was never a speed burner. He was a starter for more than a few seasons.
Speed helps - no one will argue that. But there is more to football than speed.
Im hoping Hart falls to the browns in the 3rd round - but I know he'll be gone around their second pick.
Jerome Bettis-->gigantic man/power back
Mike Alstott-->power back, short yardage guy
how can you compare either these two to mike hart, im sorry but hart isnt going to pancake a LB it just wont happen like that, the bus didnt have speed but he made up for it with size and power
THIS JUST IN: "UM" does not like Mike Hart.
Don't get me wrong. I like Mike Hart, I just don't think he deserves sainthood like people on this board have been giving him. My main point was that he ran his mouth ALL the time, and he lost EVERY big game he needed to win. That's all I was trying to say but I got attacked by all these insane hart lovers who would die for the guy. He wasn't that good, just one of our better players in the last 5 years of mediocrity, but not a UM football god by any means
Yeah, arguing with some doofus who doesn't think Mike Hart is awesome is like arguing with a doofus who thinks the earth is flat -- just a waste of time.
Go back to the MSU/tOSU boards, troll.
hart will play in the nfl-
1) he does not fumble
2) he blocks better than any back college or pro
3) he does not go down easy
he will not star in the nfl-
4) he is too slow
Okay Brian, we need a new post to talk about. Seems the natives are getting restless...
UM-
You're way overstating your point. Obviously speed matters in the NFL. But systems matter as well, and in a zone blocking scheme like Denver, where they made Mike Anderson, Olandis Gary, and others 1,000 yard rushers (neither of them are burners), I think it's more than fair to suggest that:
1.) In a system predicated on vision and timing, Hart could thrive (zone blocking)
2.) In a northern, cold climate (Chicago), good chance Hart could thrive (you don't see a lot of burners past September in Chicago, Green Bay, except for Jennings/Hester).
I'm fine with your point. But hammering the same conclusion without conceding possible exceptions is annoying.
Chunks,
Michigan football is about winning championships. Edwards was "awesome" and won championships. Mike Hart is not in the same category as BE.
Okay, so this is totally off topic, but watching the news, a couple things struck me as funny;
1: Honda is recalling a certain lawn mower because the blades pose a laceration hazard...
2: This guy-
http://www.ogpaper.com/news/news...news-
01485.html
"he lost EVERY big game he needed to win."
^^No. Don't put the blame square on him. In doing so, YOU are making him out to be a saint--implying that he is some superhuman force who should have been able to sing-handedly beat teams led by Troy Smith, Matt Leinart and Vince Young.
M Dudes:
The Mike Legg goal known forever more as "The Michigan" is one of the highlights being considered for "greatest all-time highlight" on ESPN:
http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sp...0?
event_id=3283
Believe it or not, the only other highlight featuring UM athletics is Kordell Stewart's Hail Mary pass from 1994...and I'm sure as hell not voting for that.
"Michigan football is about winning championships. Edwards was "awesome" and won championships."
^^Michigan football is about more than winning championships. In fact, Mike Hart is the PERFECT example of that. Also, those 'championships' Braylon won.... Mike Hart was there for some of that ride too.
UM
U R stoopid. Or a troll. I can't figure out which.
On the one hand, you're arguing with me that Mike Hart was in some fashion "destined" to be great because of some HS records. But then on the other hand you're arguing with pretty much everybody else that Hart didn't do much in college, and won't be a good NFL back, because of his small size, slow speed, yada yada yada.
Either Mike Hart had and has physical gifts that enable him to be a great runner, or he doesn't. And if he does have physical gifts, then maybe he has a chance in the pros. But if he doesn't have physical gifts, then all the more credit should be given to him because of what he's accomplished in spite of that.
It seems you want to have it both ways, just so you can shit on Mike Hart, no matter what. As I said, you're either stupid or a troll.
Couldn't agree more with cfaller96 on that one...
@ UM:
Just wondering: when did you attend Michigan?
I ask because, for me, watching every one of his games live for 3.5 years sold me on the fact that he would make a good pro. There's just something about him. You can point to stats and accolades, or the zone blocking scheme, or Jake Long, or his size, but what truly makes him special as a RB is that feeling you get when watching him play. You just KNOW there is something special going on there. In fact, that feeling often gets amped up specifically because of the juxtaposition with his size/stature/speed/etc.
As a counterpoint, I loved watching Perry at UofM his junior and senior years, and even felt he would make a good pro (he still has time, and you cannot hold the injuries against him completely), though he has yet to prove that. What I never felt, though, was any sense of dynamism with him. At least, nothing compared to what watching Mike Hart conjures.
not to chime in unannounced,
but when did anyone ever talk about barry sanders as having great speed?
how many times did that guy get hauled down form behind?
i still would consider him a good back though, as im sure most would...
Don't interrupt us, gsimmons, we're in the middle of beating up a troll (I think)...
Warrick Dunn, anyone ? Not fast or big, but elusive, good blocker, and good catching out of the backfield. I seem to remember him playing .... oh yeah ... IN THE LEAGUE FOR QUITE A WHILE.
^^bad example. Warrick Dunn was super-fast at Florida State. And pretty damn quick with Tampa also.
re: DUNN
Although, he is damn tiny. And look how long he's lasted.
Maybe all Mike Hart needs in the pros is the right scheme.
I am not a guy who automatically puts Hart on the Mt. Rushmore of Michigan tailbacks, but where is this logic that he's not any good coming from.
Jake Long, not withstanding, Mike Hart played behind some of the worst put together and coached offensive lines that I have seen in my three decades of watching literally every play of UM football.
You all know, I come on here and preach the Morris, Hoard, Boles love and all that....but those guys played behind some vintage kick ass, root 'em out offensive lines.....Mike Hart, not so much.
And Mike Hart is a championship player at UM. Not only did UM win the big ten title his freshmen year, but he emerged as the feature back that season and had something like 7 straight 100-yard games en route to that title.
@scalz1
Actually, I hope Mike Hart follows Warrick Dunn's key to success in the NFL: never let them get a direct hit on you. Dunn said he always made sure the defense only got a glancing/angled/sideways tackle on him, which saved him from being brutalized because of his small size.
Sadly, I worry that Mike Hart is too much of a bruiser to take it to the next level. I just don't know how much of an NFL pounding Mike Hart can take. But then again, I've learned not to count him out, ever.
As a lifelong Bucs fan(well, since about 8), I've watched Warrick for a while. I wouldn't call him fast, however, "shifty" and "quick" come to mind. Hart has alot of the same "elusive" moves. Dunn would win in a race, but, I think their skills are quite parellel. Dunn also refuse to go down and is frequently in the right place at the right time.
I always wonder what Hart could've accomplished had the opponents not known our playbook so very well.
Hart can be a valuable asset in the NFL provided he plays w/in a scheme which keeps the opponent guessing and off balance.
I wish him good luck regardless.
And, Dunn is a great guy, providing houses for single mothers(through charities, not the other way), and had one of the funniest commercials for ESPN the magazine, the Cat Fancy cover curse.
was about to respond to some of UM's moronic comments, but from reading his posts is clear now:
UM==osu troll
please don't take his bait, just ignore him and eventually he'll go away and amuse himself with his coloring books again
yeah, is there any source for UM's comment about Pryor? That comment alone screams troll.
Lets test this...
UM, if you're not a troll, you'll have no problem saying "Tressel is a douchebag and sweatervests are faggy"
So do it.
I loved Boles. Almost cried when he wrecked his knee.
There has been no movement in the TP situation.....the last Rivals writeup on him by Mike Farrell pretty much had the same info we already know.....my analysis, expect him to take visits to Florida, Penn State and Michigan before he makes any final decision.
I'm still not banking on him coming, but its exciting and a step towards the modern football we need that we are even in the game with him.
He has taken West Virginia off his list as it seems he only wanted to go there to play for Rodriguez. Anybody know where that guy is coaching now?
dudes, im a junior here at michigan. i hate ohio state more than anything in the world believe me. im sorry for the mike hart comments im still not over the last 4 years but with RR it's getting easier. My TP comment came from an article i read on rivals with TP saying that his perception of RR has changed a little because "if he left once he could leave again" i hate tressel i hate dantonio (mini tressel) and i absolutely BLEED maize n blue
sorry that was me
I think we scared off "UM". My guess is he was a Sparty troll- so much hostility in his comments, too much for a Buckeye (they're full of arrogance right now), and not enough insecurity for a PSU or ND troll.
He'll be back, I'm sure, under some new handle. It took him awhile to come up with the witty (and deceptive!) "UM" handle. Maybe next time he'll come back as something a little more subtle- like "Mich" or "MichMich" or some stupid crapass handle like that.
I like Mike Hart. Probably the best slow running back in the history of CFB. But that lack of speed really kills things for me when talking about the best backs in UM history. He could (can) break off 10 yard runs at will. But he'd be hardpressed to outrun an D-lineman. I'm exagerating a bit -- but you know what I mean.
HAHAHA that blue man video made my day at work today.
(They'll never sniff me out...)
did u not read what i posted above?
Just to prove my own worthiness:
Tressel is a douchebag and sweatervests are faggy.
I am a junior in the Neuroscience program here at Michigan, i do not like osu, i do not like msu, i do not like nd, and tressel is a fag, happy?
if you would like comformation, send me an email mreida@umich.edu and i will varify that i am a student here, i just dont like mike hart so fucking sue me big deal, when a guy takes it upon himself as the "leader" and the face of the team, he gets a blame for the losses just like he gets the credit for never losing to MSU
@UM
Still waiting on a bunch of things from you:
1. The aforementioned statement about Tressel's douchiness and the fagginess of sweatervests. Verbatim. It's not hard if you're a Michigan fan.
2. An explanation as to how Mike Hart did NOT 'come out of nowhere,' even though he was nowhere to be seen on the depth chart when he came in.
3. Reconciling his accomplishments with future NFL success. I.e., if Mike Hart was so gifted/destined coming out of high school (as you claim), then shouldn't his accomplishments at Michigan with said gifts bode well for an NFL future?
I dont want to sound anti-Michigan here, but if we are going to base how good a RB is at Michigan by discussing what he'll do at the pro level.......well, you all know what I'm talking about here.....but its going to be a short discussion.
1. Tressel is a douchebag and sweatervests are faggy
2. anybody who recieves a scholarship from the university of michigan doesn't "come out of no where"
3. he could be successful in the NFL, but he wont be a top 3 round pick
No explanation needed - I root for a team (Giants) that had some notable U of M RB flameouts - Rob Carpenter, Butch Woolfolk, Jerrod Bunch, Tyrome Wheatley.
I'm actuall hard pressed to come up with a RB from Michigan that was actually an NFL star? Joe Morris didn't go to Michigan, did he?
joe morris went to syracuse
@Jamie Mac
Agree. And that doesn't just apply to Michigan. Ask Penn State about their greatest running backs, and then go check to see how they did in the pros. Not pretty.
With the RB position, I've always had the theory that a given running back has X number of carries before he gets injured, slowed down, etc. After that, and you're just done. I think that a couple of NFL programs like to look at #carries in college and HS if they're considering drafting a RB- they want to make sure there's still tread left on the tires.
Yeah, there really is no " Running Back U" like PSU is "Linebacker U". I guess the closest thing to Running back U would be Miami ?
Magahee, Edge, Gore ?
Thoughts ?
By the way, Everyone in Tampa loooooooooves BJ Askew, he's having a really good year.
"i do not like osu, i do not like msu, i do not like nd"
I do not like them, Sam I Am!
anybody who recieves a scholarship from the university of michigan doesn't "come out of no where"
braylon edwards. hart. dave harris.
Really, the only UM RB in recent memory that showed star potential in the NFL was Biakabatuka. But he couldn't beat the injury bug.
Hoard and Wheatly had some productive years, but nothing at the "star" level.
Thought A-Train might prove to be productive NFL back after his rookie year, but alas . . .
cfaller,
You are right, both about PSU and the mileage issue....running backs are like cars, and when they're used up just trade it in and replace it.
I wasn't trying to mock Michigan or make us sound worse by the 'no good RB's in the pros' argument, but it seemed like we were partly debating Hart's quality in relation to where he'll be in the NFL.
Chitown,
Wow I had forgotten about the Giants fetish for Wolverines....they have Toomer, but years ago they got a lot of Chris Calloway also at the WR spot also.
Tailback U....thats a tough one..Miami is a good call....UGA has had a good lineage, albeit spread out w/ Herschel, Tim Worley, Rodney Hampton (chitown, is that the right name from the NYG, he went to UGA, right) and Terrel Davis.
Dont forget about USC either.
where is Brian today?
yesterday his first post was up by now, and he was apologizing for the late start. did I miss a memo about a holiday slowdown at mgoblog (ala Orson at EDSBS)?
can someone in AA go check on Brian?
Is Brian in AA?
i think brian had to trade in his les miles trapperkeeper for a RR version.
RB U might be Auburn. James Brooks, Bo Jackson, Stephen Davis, Rudi, Brown/Cadillac, and Irons. Not bad.
Tennesee also came to mind.
Lewis and Henry.
OSU : Smith, George, Clarrett(heh)
ND: Bettis, Julius Jones
Texas: Campbell, Williams, Benson
I also forgot about Portis in Miami.
So, James Brooks, Bo Jackson, Stephen Davis, Rudi, Brown/Cadillac, and Irons > Portis, Edge, Magahee, Gore ?
And, just to be contrarian:
Although there clearly is no argument for Hart not being included in a Michigan "top 5", I see some of UM's points. Harts tendency to run his mouth was something I found distasteful. I'm not an OSU or MSU troll, and I legitimately felt like he got involved in some wars-of-words that could definitely be termed "unclassy". We dealt with it because he was our guy, but if Chris Wells said the same things, we'd be up in arms.
I also think people fall overthemselves to talk about his "heart" because of his size. Look at every athlete fans or media terms "scrappy" or "full of heart" Avery Johnson, David Eckstein, Warrick Dunn - they are all TINY. We root for people we can identify with, and we can identify with the guy who, physically, has no business being out there.
Finally, Hart's numbers are overstated, by alot. He has huge numbers because Michigan was inept in recruiting HB's before he showed up, and those we did either went up in smoke (Baraka) or didn't pan out (Underwood).
Thomas sat behind Chris Howard and Clarence Williams. Perry sat behind Thomas and Askew. Biakabatuka sat behind Wheatley for awhile...
All these guys (aside from Askew) had better individual seasons than Hart.
Again, I like Hart, I just think we severely overstate his case for greatness.
"Absolute GREAT hire for the rest of the big 10. UM should start wearing purple and black. They will be the new Northwestern. "
Sparty fans know they've lost to Northwestern 2 of the last 3 years right? 49-14 or whatever it was in 05?
And yes, Rodney Hampton was from Georgia, but I think he barely played there. There was an upperclassmen ahead of him for awhile, and then I think Hearst jumped over him on the chart.
Another knock against Hart is his general inability to stay healthy. He might have an Eckstein-sized heart, but he has not been durable.
@UM
anybody who recieves a scholarship from the university of michigan doesn't "come out of no where"
You've totally missed my point. Again.
When Mike Hart arrived on campus, he was nowhere on the depth chart. Or he was fifth, which is basically nowhere.
In hindsight, it seems so silly, yet the task of moving up the depth chart is not easy. You don't get the reps, you don't get the opportunities, etc. Generally, if you're down in fifth, the only way you're moving up is through injuries. And moving up to starter is an even bigger deal, and an even rarer achievement.
Mike Hart came from nowhere (or fifth) on the depth chart to become the starter, to become a star, and to become a crucial component to the team for the next four years, and to become the career rushing leader. Again- where he started so far down the depth chart that you couldn't see him. That is truly rare and Hart is thus quite priceless.
That is my point. I don't care how many records he had in HS, I don't care what his NFL career may or may not be, I don't care if he's 5-10 or 6-1 or whatever. He climbed out of the bottom of the depth chart (i.e. NOWHERE!) and became a leader. I love him for that, and always will.
I understand your "identify with the guy your size playing D-1 football" theory, but I disagree. Sure, his mouth was bad this year, especially in the latter stages, but name one player you could count on in EVERY GAME HE PLAYED AND WAS HEALHTY(and some not)IN. I defy you to say any other name than Hart.
I know his stats are a little out of whack because he played all 4 years, but look at the actual numbers, they're exemplary.
Hart scored so many touchdowns for Michigan over the last few seasons. Nobody arguing about his greatness is going to change that. I, for one, am happy to say he was on our team. Why do you need more than this?
He will be missed.
1:42 and no new posts? I DEMAND FREE CONTENT.
@chitown
I see what you're saying. I tend to think the feeling towards Hart is alot due to the immense hype in august, which went to crap already in september. Hell, there was still some serious "Hart for Heisman" talk even after he did his ankle in. I think alot of people thought this was gonna be his breakout year, and still think he has that kind of talent, but it never came to fruition. I guess we'll see against Fla.
That said, I still put him in my five fave's.
"Yeah, there really is no " Running Back U" like PSU is "Linebacker U". I guess the closest thing to Running back U would be Miami ?
Magahee, Edge, Gore ?
Thoughts ?
scalz1 | Homepage | 12.20.07 - 1:24 pm | # "
Yeah. Miami definitely. You also forgot about Portis in there.
I'd also like to nominate Oklahoma for Tailback-U. They definitely have the history: Billy Sims, LLoyd Everett Owens, Billy Vessels, Joe Don Looney, Adrian Peterson...
Now there have been some duds and flameouts from PSU, but I have to take some issue with any notion that it hasn't produced good backs. I submit Franco Harris, Curt Warner and Larry Johnson.
These guys were pro bowlers people, and they all played under JoePa.
cfaller,
Just to back your point....what if this year's fifth strong RB emerged as the lead back and ran off a string of 100 yards games....that dude would certinaly be coming out of nowhere.
@ Lapis Veritas:
The Oklahoma list I put above trumps that.
BTW, you also forgot about Ki-Jana Carter. NFL flameout maybe, but still awesome in college.
mike hart was getting playing time in the 3rd game of the season that year, 3rd game. you dont put the #5 guy on the depth chart in the third game before the other guys? wasn't it jackson and then hart took over when he went down? or was it max martin, all i know is he wasnt 5th on the DC
It was Pierre Rembert.
@chitownblue
Agree (except for the running-the-mouth thing) about Hart not being the greatest back ever at U-M. That's why I have him somewhere at around 3rd or 4th on my list.
Better individual seasons from other backs aside, some credit does need to be given to Hart for keeping Michigan relevant or "in the hunt" over the past few years. He was out for most of his sophomore year, which was (what a coincidence!) the Year of Infinite Pain, one of the worst years Michigan had in decades. That's NOT a coincidence.
I don't know how you "score" Mike Hart based on his necessity and his "fire", but I do think it counts for something, and a lot of other Michigan backs don't have that on their resumes. That, plus the career rushing mark puts him in my top 5, IMO.
i bet most of you dont even know mike harts real first name
Jackson, Rembert, UNDERWOOD, Martin...then Hart.
That's #5, buddy.
then why didnt rembert, underwood, martin play before hart did???????
I think we're down to Miami and Auburn for the modern day tailback U.....although in looking at those lists, I have not eliminated Oklahoma or USC.....USC with Bush and LenDale White finally has some modern day guys to go with their lineage.
Thanks for the PSU list by the way....I had forgotten about Curt Warner, man was he good in his day.
sure maybe preseason he was listed as #5, McGuffie is going to be 5 or 6 this year, does that mean he's coming out of no where?????
Tryin to trip us up on some little nugget you found on wiki?
I always liked Perry better than Hart, but my freshman year coincided with Perry's senior year and that was an awesome season outside of the Oregon meltdown.
I know you don't like him, Cfaller, and I'll admit that he was disappointing for his first 3 years, but Chris Perry, again, had major balls his senior year. He was the (extremely vocal) captain, and his 51 carries vs. MSU while physically pushing backups out of the huddle ceretainly show "heart".
Also, I happened to know Anthony Thomas when he was at Michigan. He was a very, very quiet person. He wasn't the "yay-ra-ra" type of leader that Hart or Perry were - but I don't really equate that with "heart" or "passion". It's just personality.
UM
then why didnt rembert, underwood, martin play before hart did???????
They did, and they 'meh'ed it up. For 3 games. What's wrong with you?
Injuries. But Underwood, Jackson, and Martin DID get first crack. In fact, Martin and Hart were kind of splitting time until it became obvious that Hart was far better. Also, Martin couldn't secure the rock.
Tailback U -
USC
OJ Simpson, Marcus Allen, Mike Garrett (in the 60's), Charles White and Reggie Bush. All Heisman winners.
Jackson and Rembert never got hurt. Hart was put on the field instead of him. That suggests he wasn't #5.
Leon Michael Hart is his real name, most fans would/should know that, but anywhere here is your argument....
Mike Hart came from "no where" because he was a preseason #5 on the DC
Sam McGuffie will easily be #5 or #6 so according to you, when McGuffie blows up we can all sit here and say wow this McGuffie guy came from no where! lets canonize him!
@cfaller96:
Yup. I said as much right after you. Does this guy even WATCH the games?
Max Martin had teflon on his hands.
And, don't forget "Touchdown Enis" on the PSu list.
The only way to judge fire and leadership is to play on the team or spend every day in the locker room.
Watching guys on TV != Knowing what is really going on behind the scenes
@mgobleu
I think Brian is in AA, b/c he goes to weeknight basketball games. I at least think he is in southeastern Michigan.
either way, someone needs to find his location and check on him stat to make sure there has not been a hit from the Grobe/GVSU/other coach we did not hire mafia.
"Sam McGuffie will easily be #5 or #6 so according to you, when McGuffie blows up we can all sit here and say wow this McGuffie guy came from no where! lets canonize him!
UM | 12.20.07 - 1:57 pm | # "
^^NO. McGuffie has far more recruiting buzz than Hart ever had. Straight outta Onondaga.
could it not just be a slow news day? or maybe he's preparing a big thing such as repairing the BlogPoll, investigating ways to regulate commenters, updating the smiley face recruitment board, UFR, or otherwise?
And, if UM really is a student, I think the only logical explanation for his Hart hatred is that Mikey banged the girl on his floor who he realllly had a crush on but was way too frightened to talk to.
"
And, don't forget "Touchdown Enis" on the PSu list."
!!!!!!!!!! Totally forgot about Curtis Penis. Good call.
Tailback U -
USC
OJ Simpson, Marcus Allen, Mike Garrett (in the 60's), Charles White and Reggie Bush. All Heisman winners.
I forgot to mention that Frank Gifford and Ricky Bell also went to USC and also had good pro careers.
Anthony Davis was great at USC, but didn't pan out too well in the NFL (but I think he played some in Canada IIRC)
I always thought UM was an OSU troll. Go figure.
USC used to be the clear RB U. Now I'd say Auburn or Miami
@chitownblue
It's not that I didn't like him, IIRC he seemed like a good kid that worked hard and was tough. I just never thought he was a superstar, and was hoping to see some other back "break out" behind him, because Perry always felt like a Michigan backup. I know, arrogant, but there it is. My hopes were pinned on some dude named Walter somethingorother (Johnson, maybe? Help from some commenters please?), but he didn't pan out.
Perry was a fine back, I just think that given the rich tradition of backs we had going into the Perry era, I felt like he was a bit of a step down. Still good, mind you, but just not as good as I was expecting/hoping from Michigan at that time. Eh, bygones.
I'll partially revoke my statement - according to game logs, Underwood started the first game of 2004, and promptly got hurt. Jackson then played the majority of that game, and split time pretty evenly with Martin and Hart in the 2nd game. Hart played the majority of the 3rd.
i had the same feelings about perry...a middle of the road 4* who came from the same school as eddie george, iirc. big back, not alot of speed. compared to fargas/baraka...not much to get excited about. still...that senior year was among the best years any M RB has ever had.
i recall a story about him staying on the field in Cbus after the 02 game so he would remember what it felt like...watching them celebrate. that gave him a bit of motivation in the summer, i'd say.
Ricky Bell!!!!
I have a Buc's Ricky Bell jersey. he was great.
Yeah...USC hands down. I withdraw my Oklahoma argument.
I'm surprised Nebraska hasn't been mentioned. Mike Rozier. Roger Craig. Tom Rathman. Ahman Green. Lawrence Phill... oh, wait.
@ dex
my hart hatred comes from reading the daily every fucking day and hearing all this shit hart had to say and then he goes and lays an EGG against OSU this year, just like the three years before, now i wouldnt hate if he actually had decent games but i mean come on he didnt even rush for 50 yards that game, he gets all his stats by beating up cream puffs, his out of conference numbers are totally different than when he was playing games that matter in the big 10
Nebraska is obscure QB never to make into the nfl U
Reporter: "Mike, why do you want to return for your senior season"
Mike Hart: "To beat Ohio St. and win a National Championship"
so mikey, was it worth it?
"Now I'd say Auburn or Miami"
Miami, maybe. But the thing is, it's recent success. Look at the ENTIRE body of work in the modern (when I say 'modern,' I mean post-1960) era. For that, USC and Oklahoma have to be tops.
UM = BILG
Hart = Lloyd
90% of fandom = Magnus
brian lives in a2. he has hockey season tix.
Nebraska is also "have your QB die in a weird way U"
chitown is right about Hart. Add in the fact that his ypc was never really that impressive. One game this year he had 40 carries for like 120 yards.
@chitown
Jackson and Rembert never got hurt. Hart was put on the field instead of him. That suggests he wasn't #5.
No, I remember there was some strange stuff going on at the end of the SDSU game. We had 1 or 2 injuries, and the two backs we were rotating weren't doing shit. And I got the feeling that the coaching staff was getting desperate (up by a less than a score, defense tired, offense ineffective) and just threw Hart in there to give the other backs a blow or something. IIRC, it was a 3rd and long from inside our 20, and the coaches called a draw to just set up the punt (while they got busy yelling at Rembert, Jackson, et al).
And BOOM! goes Mike Hart as he picks up the first down. And everyone's like "who the eff is this guy?" and the announcers are searching for his name. The rest, as they say, is history.
@UM
There's 10 other guys on offense and 11 other guys trying to stop them. I don't know if you've like actually watched a game or something, but Mike Hart isn't the sole arbiter of how Mike Hart performs statistically in a football game. You could look at other stuff, like how he was the only back on the roster that could competently block a blitz, but that might require you to watch something other than the ball.
And you don't become the career leader in rushing ydg by not producing in the Big 10, so numbers backing up that claim or gtfo plz.
Nah, BILG makes sense sometimes.
"Lay an EGG" ?
Dude, seriously. Did you watch any games EVER?
I wouldn't call the 2006 OSU game "Laying an egg".
i guess UM hates Jake Long too.
@ UM: What the fuck is he supposed to say? "To eat Spots wings and bang sorostitutes." Those were the two goals he had left to accomplish in college football. He fell short (pun not really intended). It's not like he was guaranteeing anything with that comment.
The sad part is that I mostly agree with your assessment of his NFL potential. But some of the arguments you're throwing out there regarding his college career suck.
mike hart college = super fantabulous
mike hart nfl = already injured, slow, worn down, dime a dozen, can't catch a pass, situational back at best for a couple seasons
"my hart hatred comes from reading the daily every fucking day and hearing all this shit hart had to say and then he goes and lays an EGG against OSU this year, just like the three years before, now i wouldnt hate if he actually had decent games but i mean come on he didnt even rush for 50 yards that game, he gets all his stats by beating up cream puffs,"
^^Sounds like you are a frosh or a sophomore, because your argument seems to indicate that you haven't been along for the ride. Remember after 2003, when Navarre and Perry left? Nobody knew what the hell we were going to do after that--Gutierrez? This Henne kid? Underwood? That tiny guy from upstate NY? Henne and Hart stepped into the void OUT OF NOWHERE (so to speak) and guided the program for the next 4 years. Don't put the blame square on those two for the Bowl/OSU losses.
FWIW, I tried to find Hart's performances in "big" games:
Vs. OSU, he averaged:
17 carries, 65.5 yards, 3.8 ypc
Bowl games:
19 carries, 68 yards, 3.6 ypc
ND:
34 carries, 155.5 yards, 4.6 ypc
MSU:
24 carries, 168.5 yards, 7 ypc
PSU:
31 carries, 131.7 yards, 4.2 ypc
harts YPC stat is even more impressive *B/C* he never rips off long runs. the dude got tackled behind the LOS like 8 times in his career. fumbled, what, 3-4 times in his career. was an outstanding RB to have in pass pro. and this was the case the minite he came in vs SDSU04 as a 'throw in' 3* recruit from a terribly weak division in a poorly talented football state.
You left out TD's in those stats
What about the all-time record for consecutive 200-yard games in a season? And most 200-yard games in a season?
Wasn't that in his Sophomore year?!?!?!
It was surprising Henne started that year, but IIRC Henne was a highly touted recruit and I know my seating group expected him to definitely be the man his 2nd year and were quite happy to see him out there his frosh year.
Hart was probably best his freshman year. I fully support the argument that he nearly single-handedly saved our bacon that year. We had no clue who was playing what that year, and he stepped up and dominated. That was huge.
If 140 yards and 3 TDs against the #1 team in the country is laying an egg, then Mike Hart is a fuckin' goose.
I, for one, welcome our new anatidaean overlord.
UM
my hart hatred comes from reading the daily every fucking day and hearing all this shit hart had to say and then he goes and lays an EGG against OSU this year, just like the three years before, now i wouldnt hate if he actually had decent games but i mean come on he didnt even rush for 50 yards that game, he gets all his stats by beating up cream puffs, his out of conference numbers are totally different than when he was playing games that matter in the big 10
It's hard to read this hostile, factually challenged statement and not think you're an MSU troll. Why hate a fellow Michigan Man so much? He hasn't embarrassed you, he's helped his football team win lots of games, he's given you plenty of memorable moments...so WTF, dude?
If you've even paid the slightest amount of attention to this blog, then you know that Hart is by far one of the least responsible for our collective disasters against OSU. Haven't you noticed the joy we've expressed in saying goodbye to [NAME REDACTED] and Gittelson, for example?
You even admit that you have "Hart hatred." You're either a troll, or you're seriously whacked out of your mind to be "hating" the career rushing leader of your alma mater. If you are truly a Michigan Man, then you should be ashamed of yourself.
"fumbled, what, 3-4 times in his caree"
^^Fumbled 3 times. Lost 1.
IN FOUR FREAKING YEARS!
THIS IS DIVISION 1 FOOTBALL!!!!!
THIS IS THE BIG 10!!!!!!
Hey, "UM," go play some intramurals, brother.
OMG. LMAO at "then Mike Hart is a fuckin' goose."
scalz1 - TD's would hurt his case.
But, I don't really lend that much credence to TD carries anyway, because I think they're much more a result of the situation the back is put into than any actualy skill. Anyway, he only had 1 game in which he scored against OSU. He's never scored in a bowl. Against ND, MSU, and PSU, he scored frequently.
This conversation has piqued my interest.
Is David Underwood still alive?
I really think UM overlooks the fact that Hart has been running behind a subpar (by Michigan's standards) line his whole career. I realize Long is as good as they come, but the rest of his lines have not been great and coupled that with fact that our offense consisted of "Hart, stretch run to the left", I think he's a damn fine RB.
You can't evaluate anyone out of context, and Hart is a good example of that, in my opinion.
"You even admit that you have "Hart hatred." You're either a troll, or you're seriously whacked out of your mind to be "hating" the career rushing leader of your alma mater. If you are truly a Michigan Man, then you should be ashamed of yourself."
^^Totally agree, cfaller96. He's not playing devil's advocate either, so I just don't get it.
Long time lurker, first time poster here. I think the best thing to do is to just not respond to "UM," who can't possibly be a Michigan Man. The completely irrational/insane Hart hatred is just plain ridiculous and is undeserving of any well reasoned/logical responses. Please leave and don't come back UM.
Subpar lines ?
Not great, but definitely better than sub par.
He ran behind Fat Elvis, for christ's skae.
FAT ELVIS.
JB is right.
You don't have to love Mike Hart. Hell, J-Mac makes a good point for why he's not in his top 3. Fine.
But to "hate" the kid just smacks of immaturity and ignorance. Sorry I bothered replying.
I love how Brian isn't doing/hasnt done a Ohio State UFR. Maybe hes filing it under the 'never happened' category. Or maybe he faints from Debordianism every time he tries to analyze the game
Hart has run behind 2 1st round draft picks in his career - Baas and Long. I have no idea how that compares to others. Obviously, Thomas had 4 at one time (Jansen, Hutchinson, Williams, Backus).
scalz-- I'm a big fat elvis fan, I knew him a bit. Hilarious dude. But, um, yes, subpar (by Michigan's standards--- you saw that qualifier the first time, right?)
"FAT ELVIS."
Lol. Mutton Chops. Go Tony Pape!
Walter Cross, that was the guy I was thinking of. I always felt he was a homerun hitter type of back, but we'll never know. Eh, bygones.
I just like saying Fat Elvis, sorry. Pape was awesome.
what the crap?
you guys are still going at it with this chump?
I always thought Pape was decent - then he wasn't even drafted.
So, uh, do people think I'm an asshole, too or is UM obscuring my assholeness?
For me it is tough to judge whether Mike Hart will have a really good NFL career or not. Much (like with everyone) will depend on if he stays injury free.
There have been a number of small NFL backs who had very good career. IIRC, the Tuna, while with the Giants, loved Jeff(?) Maggert (sp?), I don't think he was very big (or had great break-away speed).
Hart has a lot of very valuable attributes that will help him greatly in the NFL, the 3 most prominant are his:
1) ability to make the first tackler miss
2) his vision of the field. Rarely did he make a bad cut-back.
3) blocking.
But one thing that would make him most valuable to an NFL team and takes advantage of assets 1 and 2 above. If he makes for a good reciever out of the backfield.
However, we have no idea about that because Michigan never seemed to through the ball out to him in the flat. I also thought his vision and ability to make tacklers miss would make him very dangerous.
i don't remember anyone jonesin' to see walter cross carry the ball. i was jonesin' for hart more than cross b/c i'm from upstate NY.
Dave Megget was on the giants. He was fast, though
"Thomas had 4 at one time (Jansen, Hutchinson, Williams, Backus)"
^^To this day, I still cannot believe how insane that line was. In college, and then individually--when they all went pro. Good lord. Outta control.
As much as I've quibbled with Debord and Carr over their offensive philosophy while watching games, I do defer to them on the throwing the ball to Hart issue.
If he was any good at it, I think they would have done it.
Yeah, chillm, my views on our recent lines might be influenced by how insane the lines were when I was in school. I mean, holy crap.
Too bad Jon Jansen is an idiot. great player, but boy, is he dense.
@ scalz1 -
Thanks. I think Jeff Meggert is a PGA golfer now that I think of it.
Yeah, I can't comment on how good the O-lines in front of Mike Hart have been, unless you want to look at NFL drafts/starts by Michigan linemen. And that would require more time than I'm willing to give.
Just curious, but how does one evaluate the quality of an offensive line while the game is going on? I find everything moves so quickly that I have trouble figuring out what's happening in the trenches. So I'm left with the totally stupid criteria of:
hole = good line play
traffic = bad line play
Does anyone have any pointers?
I shudder every time I think of Jansen, Derrick Brooks, or Edge with a mic in front of them.
Add Speilman to that list, too.
Dex has a point. When DeBord was OC in 1997 we had a platoon RB (Clarence Williams) whose only roll was to catch screens and swings. It seemed like DeBord wanted to use Breaston in that sort of roll more than Hart (which does make sense).
I'm going shopping today. Yes, chill, at the Rich People's Mall. anyone that wants to carry my bags can come along.
Chillmodius/ThWard:
It should also be said that the 5th dude on that line, C David Brandt, was a 3rd rounder who started 3 years for the Redskins.
i guess i'll stop creeping and post. i hate 'michigan fans' that hate michigan players. how you could hate mike hart is beyond me? and dude, it was 35 degrees and raining all day, there wasn't a whole lot of offense happening, besides a couple big OSU plays. so because he (injured) doesn't run for 150 yards in one game he sucks?
i'm going with sophomore from long island...
I'll start the next flame session. I was never a really big Breaston fan. He was occassionally great, but more often than not, terribly disappointing to me.
tony pape seemed to regress in his career. he was pegged as the next great UM tackle early on, but then we had some pass pro issues, and that 04RS vs USC exposed pape, imo. there was a guard in that era that seemed to follow the same career arc, but i forget his name.
Hart had the best vision and balance i've ever seen in any college back. his footwork and cutting ability was 2nd only to TimmyB. also, his ability to stretch for the extra yard or 4 w/ 2-3 tacklers all over him is overcome by no one i can think of.
@ Dex -
I actually thought that, in too many games, we needed to keep Hart in the backfield for extra protection.
Just an assumption (for right or wrong) that I had made.
Line play is actually not that tough to get a rough idea of. You can only know so much since we don't know the specific responsibility/goal of the play, but basically it's wysiwyg. Stay low, get under the pads, drive, seal, etc. If you have a Tivo or a recording you can go back and look at footwork and more small details, but during the game I just look to see who is moving efficiently and who is still blocking at the end vs. standing around watching.
@Blue Durham
Agreed we did need to keep Hart in the backfield often, but I'm having trouble even recalling one instance where we threw to him. I know it happened, but honestly I don't recall it. If he was decent at catching, I think he would have seen more balls. Pure speculation though.
Breaston was often disappointing, but man do we miss him on kick returns.
breaston as a receiver...underwhelmed.
breaston as a returner...best UM has had since Des. tho, DA was really good too. sure, not many returns for TDs...but he was a lock to 1)not fumble 2)not let the ball behind him (even if it hit the turf & rolled/bounced, and 3) get 10-12 yards every time.
Scalz1 - Breaston, until his final year, couldn't catch. I firmly stand by that statement.
@DanK
Yeah, well, I was a lonely voice in the wilderness on Walter Cross. And I'm not saying I was right, I'm just recalling what my thoughts were at the time.
My thoughts don't mean much- for example, I always felt that Jerome Jackson was a good back that deserved more carries. I think I was wrong to fantasize about a Hart-Jackson tandem. Just goes to show I don't have much of an eye for talent...
"I'm going shopping today. Yes, chill, at the Rich People's Mall. anyone that wants to carry my bags can come along.
00globlue00 | 12.20.07 - 2:29 pm | # "
^^^I would LOVE to do nothing more than go to Scummers with you and carry your bags today--because, essentially, it would mean that I'd be in Michigan and not in LA. (For those of you who don't know me, I'm one of those weirdos who would take a snowy day in Ann Arbor over an 80-degree day in Los Angeles any time you made me the offer) Alas, I am trapped in a downtown high-rise. Blech.
Here's something that just occurred to me - the 96/97 teams is best known for it's defense. But I can only think of 3 players that ended up as NFL starters: Woodson, Steele, Josh Williams
On offense, we had: All 5 linemen, Tai Streets, Griese, Tuman, our BACKUP TE Mark Campbell, and our backup (then) HB Anthony Thomas. The only people who did't start in the NFL were Marcus Knight, Chris Floyd, Chris Howard, and Clarence Williams.
I agree that Breaston was a little over rated. However, I'll never forget the Illinois game my freshman year when he ran about 250 yards on one return and took it to the house. Also, I was at the Rose Bowl when we played Texas and he had an outstanding day. I guess if you could sum him up in one word it would be: inconsistent. It sure was nice to see him return that one against the steelers this year too. I hate the steelers.
@chill
Uh, I'll trade you jobs? I love sun.
I'd say that RR was the best hire UM could get, out of what was left. There were several much better hires out there that Martin didn't get because of his complete incompetence (and we know it when we see it with KW at ND).
RR isn't a disaster, and I can't fault UM fans for being excited (because what else can you be - you dont have much of a choice at this point) but I see potential problems with the guy. In recruiting, in his system in the Big 10, and in loyalty. And all of that together makes it a bit suspect to me. Like I said, I think it's the best you could've done. But I don't think it's great.
And Brian - Charlie Weis may be overweight and a first-time HC, but at least he's loyal. No bailing on his team and skirting out in the middle of the night after a few minutes with his players to move on to 'better' things (UM for RR, the Giants for CW) with his wife in tow. But that's besides the point. I think you ended up as best as you could have after the disaster of a process.
And I dont think anyone should apologize to Martin for f-ing this up big time. He saved some face with the hire, but he still royally screwed this up and made UM a laughingstock for a solid month. Which was sad, even though I enjoyed it myself for the first few days.
dex, agreed re: harts catching ability. Perry had the best catching ability of any UM back out of the backfield. they did it early & often w/ perry. they would have if 1)Hart could catch effectively, 2) if henne could make that throw effectively.
early on, henne was not so good at this, but i have to assume it was harts ability to catch that stopped this playcall the last 2 years. plus he was an outstanding blocker, so why not just keep him in the backfield?
@chill
Uh, I'll trade you jobs? I love sun.
dex | Homepage | 12.20.07 - 2:40 pm | #
^^Done. Where do I sign?
[note: I love sun also. I just prefer it during the spring, summer and fall in Ann Arbor.]
I'll start the next flame session. I was never a really big Breaston fan. He was occassionally great, but more often than not, terribly disappointing to me.
Breaston was an enigma to me. So much talent, (seemingly) good head on his shoulders, coaches willing to use him...and yet by the time his senior season rolled around he was merely a possession receiver, used in the slot to get 1st downs over the middle. But why wasn't he a deep-threat superstar? I still don't know the answer to that one.
Wow, I've missed a lot of conversation today. Allow me to put my two cents: how the hell can you hate Mike Hart?!?!?! Are you insane? When Hart was healthy, the guy was a beast. His biggest problem was that he got injured in '05 and this year. Whenever he was 100%, he was one of the greatest backs that ever played the college game.
Also, scalz1, I'm with you on Breaston. I like the guy and his punt returns, but was always frustrated with him as a receiver (although part of that was coaches not putting him in a position to succeed).
Shit, James Hall started in the NFl too.
"And Brian - Charlie Weis may be overweight and a first-time HC, but at least he's loyal."
^^yeah, loyal to his contract that keeps getting beefed up every time the NFL comes calling and he leverages his power over ND.
Oh My God.... ND1 = UM? More crazy talk?
c'mon dude, have a clue
"But why wasn't he a deep-threat superstar? I still don't know the answer to that one."
Probably because he was a QB in high school and we CONVERTED him into a returner/slot guy. Also, Braylon and Avant were ahead of him and significantly better as possession receivers.
I recall Hart catching a LOT of balls out of the backfield his freshman year, and IIRC he wasn't half bad. And his sophomore year was basically a wash because of his injury.
I think we can blame [NAME REDACTED] for not using him as a receiver. The swing and screen passes were just too 'paper' and 'scissor' for ManlyMan Mike.
"But why wasn't he a deep-threat superstar? I still don't know the answer to that one."
Unless it was a long handoff, Breaston couldn't catch. His sophomore/junior seasons, I saw so many perfectly thrown deep balls clatter off his hands.
@chill,
he didn't demand a thing. KW (the moron) did it preemptively to keep CW on board. it's a nice typical ignorant statement on your part, but not accurate.
i'm not saying he should've been given that extension, but i'm letting you know he didnt 'wield his power' as you (and many others) suggest.
Sam Sword also played for the Raiders
"I recall Hart catching a LOT of balls out of the backfield his freshman year, and IIRC he wasn't half bad."
This is right - Hart had 26 catches for 237 yards. While not Perry-like, it's pretty respectable, and much more inline with other HB's we've had not named Perry.
chitownblue
Here's something that just occurred to me - the 96/97 teams is best known for it's defense. But I can only think of 3 players that ended up as NFL starters: Woodson, Steele, Josh Williams
chitown, you should be ashamed. Ian Gold? Dhani Jones? James Hall? Andre Weathers?
I'm sure there are others, but Jesus. That defense was loaded with NFL talent.
But why wasn't [Breaston] a deep-threat superstar?
hands and speed. he had acceleration, but not top-line speed. hes also not a top-line route runner, iirc.
@ Dex -
I understand the assumption that if Hart was any good receiving out of the backfield, we would have used him that way (and yes, I can't ever think of an instance that the ball was thrown to him). But this assumption may be wrong because:
1) I would assume that anytime, on first down, we see (like almost, always) 8 or 9 defenders in the box, we would, like, throw the ball?
2) Mike Hart does everything else well. Can I actually envision Mike Hart Having stone hands or just being a putz on a pass play to him. Hmmmm...No.
Scalz - yeah, Ray, Dreisbach and Sword all went to the Raiders, but I don't remember them actually playing.
@chill
i'm flying out of lax at 5 back to the d. i'm cold just thinking about it...
"
Unless it was a long handoff, Breaston couldn't catch. His sophomore/junior seasons, I saw so many perfectly thrown deep balls clatter off his hands.
chitownblue 00 | 12.20.07 - 2:46 pm | # "
Agree. But again, he was converted from a QB to be a game-breaker...not a dynamic WR. Yeah, it would have been nice. But when you look at it realistically, he was a special teams beast. And that's how he should be remembered. Not as an incompetent WR. I'll bring up the 2004 and 2005 Rose Bowls again. Set the career yardage mark for the Rose Bowl (non-QB) in those games, and set the single-game yardage record for the Rose Bowl in 2005. He would have received the MVP of that too, had Dusty Mangum and Lloyd's shitty clock management not handed it to Vince Young. In so many games throughout his career, his returns (punt/kickoff) gave us the field position to win. Just look at what Mathews, a "better" wide receiver, did this year.
Ian Gold didn't start. I came up with James Hall. Dhani...no excuse, I forgot.
Breaston slumped his body forward on long routes and tried almost to scoop at the ball making it very difficult for the ball to actually find its target. When, by some laser guided miracle, actually hit in his hands, it would clank off.
He did not seem to have this slumping problem on kicks. Maybe it was because he was square to where the kick was coming from, and his vision of the ball made his body relax a little more. I don't know, but in short, I think that he had some technique problems which made him ineffective as a deep threat. Don't know if Campbell and the coaching staff saw anything wrong technique-wise.
@chitown
Oh wait, I misunderstood- you're looking for NFL starters? Hmmm, I don't know. But I'm pretty sure Andre Weathers still counts.
A "game breaker". OK, I understand the role, but how many games did he "break" besides the Rose Bowl? He's not the guy you hold you breath every time he touches the ball. If you do, you just exhale as the ball bounces off off his pads or he runs across the field laterally. Not selling me on this. Like I said earlier, I'm not a hater, but I expected more.
"he didn't demand a thing. KW (the moron) did it preemptively to keep CW on board. it's a nice typical ignorant statement on your part, but not accurate."
"TYPICAL" ignorant statement? Do you read my posts on here, Mr. First-timer? Give me another instance of a blatantly-ignorant statement I have made recently....I'll wait...
Also, it's not so much about what he comes out and says publicly. He wasn't going to say: "Yeah, I'm thinking about leaving...but if Kevin White were to tempt me otherwise, I'd stay." Clearly not. But what is clear is the fact that he didn't come out BEFORE the extension and say, "NO! I'm committed to Notre Dame and I have NO interest in the NFL." Where was that statement?
@blue durham
I'm not saying Hart is atrocious at catching our has stone hands or anything like that, just that I don't think it was a strong point of his game. Meaning, if it came to Hart in the backfield to block vs. Hart going out for a pass, we'd get more positive returns from him blocking. I like Mike, but he can't be all-world in everything.
ND1- ugh. Save your backhanded compliment. Sorry ND wasn't able to grab the big name coach they went after (Urban) and instead is shelling out $3.5+ to Weis. Funny how fans of every program that doesn't consist of Michigan-haters thinks RR was a great hire... but ND whiners, MSU delusional types, and OSU fans (the only ones who are correct in pointing out that they've got nothing to worry about, as JT is the best around) insist it's "the best we could do."
The best Michigan "could do" was secure a coach known for innovative offenses that influenced Urban Meyer and Jim Tressel, who has been to 2 BCS bowls in 3 games, and was a freaking alum of the school he coached.
In other words-- the "best Michigan could do" under the "circumstances" is what no other school likely could have done (USC, Florida, Texas, OSU, the exceptions).
Save it. If you thought Carr's conservative offenses were hanging 38 spots on ND, I'm looking forward to RR's squads.
Geez, I take a few minutes away to, cough cough, do actual work and the was Mike Hart argument has morphed into a was Steve Breaston argument any good.....not to repeat an old line.....but Demetrious Brown or Micheal Taylor, who ya taking!?!?!?
You guys crack me up, I could talk football with you all day long!
he didn't demand a thing. KW (the moron) did it preemptively to keep CW on board.
Doesn't this undercut the idea that Charlie Weis was, in fact, "loyal"? It doesn't sound like Charlie did anything loyal, unless you count accepting a big payday as "loyal"...
DeBord was OC in 96/97 right? We completed 83 passes to tailbacks that year. Holy moly.
Sorry, meant "running backs", not just tailbacks.
ND-1:
I appreciate your desire to contribute and further an argument. But to be sure, the case you are making is flawed. Moreover, don't come on a Michigan blog and make remarks about the ignorance of people who post all the time and respect this forum.
ThWard,
Thats more like it....love the anti-ND venom.....maybe when Parcells takes Weiss to Miami, well see the best they could do....under the circumstances, of course.....lol
The more ND, OSU, and MSU fans find ways to criticize RR, the more I start to think we made the right decision.
Hey bowl season starts tonight....anyone know when the Irish game is?????
weis went to as many BCS bowls the last 3 years as RR has. and he did that with the mediocre talent TW left him. what a great coach. QED.
@dex
I think [NAME REDACTED] was responsible for not using Mike Hart as a receiver, not allegedly stony hands from Hart. Under [NAME REDACTED]'s predecessor, Mike Hart did catch the ball and did it just fine. With [NAME REDACTED], however, we're treated to the goddamned zone left every goddamned 1st down of every goddamned game...(wakes up from rage blackout) Whoa, that was close- we still have RichRod, right?
Jennifer,
My thoughts exactly.
@ Dex -
I agree. I was just trying to say (point 1, very poorly made) that our current coaching staff (Carr et al) has had a tendancy not to use the weopons available.
They very well may have thought Hart blocking was a better use for him (and could be as our pass blocking could be quite poor on the right side of the line).
Or, perhaps they didn't use Hart out of the backfield because it would be,... communist? Just didn't fit into their gameplan, like play action passes?
New post
I know that no one here makes the argument, but I, for the life of me, can't understand the "Weis was left a bare cupboard by Willigham" argument. That whole senior-laden team last year were Willingham recruits, no?
"Hey bowl season starts tonight....anyone know when the Irish game is?????
Jamie Mac | Homepage | 12.20.07 - 3:02 pm | # "
They're televising my toilet BOWL tonight? Cool! Notre Dame vs. a turd! I'll take the turd + the points.
JAMIE MAC!!! Yes!! I honestly forgot there was a bowl on tonight, great news. Let's go Navy.
By the way, JM, told you that Boston is too thin to hang with Detroit (yet)-- they take Rondo out and Billups abuses the backups
Someone up thread posted hart's receiving #s from his freshmen year....what I remember is that once a game, Hart had a back breaking run on a screen pass.....he was not the greatest cacther, but he always had one a game that just killed the D....and remember all those games were close, so those were big plays....nevertheless, I have not seen us have any success throwing to anyone out of the backfield since then....we suck at screens now, and passes to the TB or FB used to be money for the Michigan offense.
Jennifer- you're right.
You know it's a good hire when ND fans are saying, "Uh, I guess that's the best you can do" and MSU's coach says, "My comment is I work for Michigan State."
Erases any doubts I may have had.
They're televising my toilet BOWL tonight? Cool! Notre Dame vs. a turd! I'll take the turd + the points.
Chillmodious
Ahh, Chill, the turd is giving the points. This is ND you know.
ThWard,
You were right, and thanks for the insight!! Rondo played well early on, but it kinda burned him out and he was nothing the second half....they better find someone else to guard Billups because he will abuse them in a seven game series if they keep matching him up with the likes of Tony Allen.....I was surprised and impressed with their D effort in the second half....it didn't matter they had the Big 3, they still could not score.
"Ahh, Chill, the turd is giving the points. This is ND you know.
Blue Durham | 12.20.07 - 3:08 pm | # "
Good call. I grabbed an LA Times this morning and someone had already stolen the "Turd Section." Couldn't get the updated spread.
next post, btw
the 96/97 team was loaded on defense as said. Gold may not have started, but he was a stud that year. He a nd Jones were both sophomores that year too. A bunch of guys played in the pros, not necessarily great careers. I always thought Steele was going to be a beast in the NFL and it never really happened that way.
Make now mistake, that whole year was just the perfect storm of starters and talented backups coming together on both sides of the ball and whipping people. I still say we would have handled Nebraska, and I am still a little bitter that the coaches gift wrapped him a retirement national title gift and we had to split that title.
Incidentally, I suck at typing.
im waiting for ND1 to call me an ignorant poster.....
the really funny thing is when fans of other teams come onto a michigan forum, to talk about michigan internal leadership has done to michigans reputation. First of all how the heck does he know how martin handle the situation when those within the community dont even know. And just what the heck does anyone care about the reputation of michinga in the eyes of ignorant flamners on the computer... michigan will sell out every game, get better recruits year in and yeare out, and beat the crap out of nd more times then not.
Commenting by HaloScan
