Thanks for addressing this, Brian. Once again the prominent faction of deluded nd fanboys manages to distort reality and pawn it off as fact.
Equally baffling is the historical reference to Michigan's SOS. Michigan's SOS annually end in the top ten or fifteen. Even without nd, it's highly probable UM's SOS would still outrank that of the irish. Ask Mr. Sagarin, if you'd rather not take my word for it.
If the series ends in 2011, then I'm assuming it ends in Ann Arbor. Is it really that unpalatable to ND to resume the series in 2014 starting at Ann Arbor and ending, for example, in 2021 in South Bend? I'm assuming the current series started in South Bend, so wouldn't it be our turn to host first? Maybe I'm naive and stupid; someone help me out.
Notre Dame sucks.
isn't it sad there are so many morons out there? I suppose that's what a "good" school like ND does - it enables you to infer things that aren't there to infer from a statement! According to these hicks' logic, a) ND is turning the corner, b) they're going to go undefeated again (playing our Armed Forces teams???) and...goddamn, too many to name. just want to strangle them.
I'm fine with ending this series. It is hilarious that ND fans would criticize our schedule.
There seems to be the impression, held by some, that we need ND for some degree of validation. Drop em' like a bad transmission.
They don't want to join the Big Ten but want to enjoy all the advantages of a percieved association by playing a number of the conference teams.
every fan base has its group of nutjobs. i'm sure both our and ND's level headed fans can agree that it is a good series and we want to continue it. we'll find some way to do it.
Maybe BGS could guest-write for Fox News, they're another outlet that manipulates quotes and facts to their advantage.
So pathetic. So so so pathetic. I'm glad I have dignity and a life, or else, perhaps, I'd be an ND fan?
There are times I think people go off the deep end on the comment threads here (like, for instance, right after RoJo committeed to USC) but I really hope we don't come across the same way as the BGS lunatics do.
I think this ends any remaining speculation about the crackpot crowd/authors of BGS. When did they become as insecure as the Sparty crowd? Yeesh.
You know how I know you're Notre Dame? .....
Anyone?
"Yea, we are caught in its chemical-green florescent glow, each hair-ridden mole and dusky, craterous pore magnified for the world to see. Lo. We are undone."
You are the Lloyd Carr, Braylon Edwards and Mike Hart of the Michigan blogosphere. If there was a jersey number for Bloggers you'd have "1" Brian Cook.
Aren't they pulling a tOSU and trying to limit their away games to 3 or 4 away games per season?
Umm... four Big Ten road games every year plus
2006: at Texas
2007: at Washington
2008: at Southern Cal
Yeah, we're really avoiding any semblance of a tough road schedule.
What if Bill drops ND and branches out into BCS teams?
Lets look at how the rivalry affects public perception lately, and who benefits from the series:
When Michigan is up, ND is down: if ND wins, they are "returning to glory"; if M wins no one outside the Michigan world seems to care
If ND is up, Michigan down: ND wins, they continue their "return to glory"; if M wins, ND is overrated, no credit to Michigan
Both up: ND wins, RTG; M wins, ND is overrated.
I think this rivalry is great, but I wouldn't mind taking some time off and inserting some home and homes with other good teams. What would we really lose?
Making generalized statements about an entire fanbase is impossible without a ton of data, but whatever. Here I go.
What I want to know is where these fans get this overbearing confidence from? OSU fans have the same disorder, but their team actually warrants at least some degree of confidence. ND hasn't beaten what I'd call an upper echelon team in how many years? Yet they remain attached to the hopes for the glorious future. We, on the other hand, with slightly better results over the last 10 or so years, are constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop. We wring hands, we gnash teeth, we even half-joke about Angry Michigan Hating God (which is a phrase we should all thank Brian for because it sums up the unconscious fears of this fan base so well) and, at least personally, cannot even manage enough confidence in victory until 5 minutes remained in the most recent ND game. I'd like to conclude that we're just in tune with reality, but 20+ point leads just don't evaporate that quickly. What I'd really like is to have faith in this glorious future.
End the series. Fine with me. End it on the condition we pick up a (legitimate) BCS opponent. The Big Ten needs to stop subsidizing Notre Dame football. Bo said so too. Join our conference or stop playing our teams 6 times a year. Stop getting the milk for free and buy the cow.
I'd much rather have a home and home vs. a high profile SEC team. Notre Dame doesn't deserve it.
This banter hides the real issue: Both ND and Big Blue are afraid of playing Iowa...
In all seriousness, the fact that the Domers are talking about the cupcake Toledo game while continuing to schedule the service academies every season is comical, and their absolute belief in "truly turning the corner on this rebuild" seems to grow with every year it doesn't happen. I'm not usually a Mich apologist, but you're absolutely on the right side of this debate.
If the Michigan-ND series comes to an end, any idea who ND would get for a replacement opponent? Obviously, it could be tough for the Irish as they are already maxed out on playing all the service academies. Perhaps they could switch to military schools like the Citadel or VMI, or just play Cincinnati Moeller.
Consider the historic implications of the latter - two schools formerly coached by Gerry Faust. It doesn't get any better than that.
It's simply wishful thinking on ND's fans part.
They want out, but their fabled "pride" won't let them admit it.
Must be Michigan's fault even when there is DIRECT contrary evidence.
So we are the bad guys here for wanting to have an alternating home schedule with our two biggest rivals like they have?
Neutered and Dumb fans want to talk about SOS! Lets take a look at facts here (I said facts, ND Asshats!):
Wins and championships
* Most wins (860) and highest winning percentage (.745) in NCAA Division I-A football history
* The most conference championships of any college football program in any conference (42)
* The most winning seasons (109)
* The most undefeated seasons in Division 1-A football (25)
* One of only two schools with a winning record against every Division 1-A conference, including independent schools such as Notre Dame.
* Michigan claims 11 national championships, among the most in college football history.
Scoring and schedule
* The largest scoring delta (points for minus points against) in college football history
* The highest all-time strength of schedule rating in college football
(From the Wiki entry on Michigan Football)
Take note of that last point. Then go schedule the Coast Guard.
I agree with Jeremy's comment. Drop ND from the schedule. If anything they hurt our strength of schedule.
what's hilarious to me is that ND fans think they are recruiting better than everyone, evahhhh! M, OSU, even USC. all they do is point to RC rankings & say....in 3 years, we'll be USC. no....ND will have lost 7 in a row to SC before they beat them. their recruiting is just coming back to where it should have been.... top 5-15 every year. just like OSU, M, OU, FSU, etc. they aren't recruiting like Tex, UF, USC are. no one is but them. they will be very good in 08 & beyond, not b/c of Wiess, but b/c the talent has come back to top 10-level.
i'm in favor of playing ND every other year, with a USC/UF/Tex/OU in the 'tween years. that marque game, plus 2 UNC/Vandy/TAMU/UCLA/WSU/ARK/CU/BC/Rutgers-level games, plus one MAC team = a good, balanced schedule.
Brian, where will you be sitting at the Fish? I have baseball practice myself, but i'm planning on being there at some point. just wanted to say good job, thanks, etc., to an actual person.
I have a theory that if a team is continuously stomped, majority of the fan base of the said team goes nuts one way or other. I cite two examples.
[1] OSU's losses to M during the Cooper era
[2] ND, since 1993 to relevant teams.
* Both events have made the latest coaches as the "Messiah" or the savior. OSU fans' support of Sweatervest has some justification to it because of the National Championship and record vs Michigan. Though it has its detractors due to record against Wisc and the thumping received from Gators
ND fans', whereas, think that Jabba is demi-god. Their best game under Jabba was the 2005 *loss* to USC. ( loss is the keyword here ). As colin said, they assume a glorious future and are arrogant based on the assumption. I haven't seen even 1 ND fan with a "wait-and-watch" approach to Jabba.
* OSU, due to their recent record, want recognition and acknowledgment. Hence, every-time an OSU player or sweatervest is mentioned ANYWHERE - be it blogs, boards.. OSU trolls pop up to protect their players. Whenever a player gets under law, OSU trolls either resort to recent record or ad-hominems or glass-houses analogy.
* ND fans, on the other hand, though less obnoxious ( they dont poke much), are more deluded. They have constructed nice little shell-world where they live and still think ND is THE greatest College football team. They haven't won any relevant game but still think Charlie is going to get multiple championships and Clausen is going to win multiple heismans. They are quick to eliminate naysayers from their boards, blogs. Their football players are morally right, their shit don't stink. 1984. Orwell. applied to College Football.
Signed,
Sigmund Freud
Hilarity of the highest quality. It reminds me of the Brian Regan comedy sketch where he says airline gate agents say "Please remain seated and wait until your row is called," but somehow the passengers hear it as "Push and shove! This is the last helicopter out of Vietnam!"
I wish I could show up at the baseball game tonight, but it happens to coincide with a big rivalry game for the local high school soccer team, and I should be there to shoot that game. So I guess I'll have to wait for another mgopublicappearance.
Um, as one of the biggest M fans around, I have to caution against something.
People keep saying that ND hasn't had a marquee win in the last 10 years. However, people apparently keep forgetting that they keep beating us. Granted, everyone (except PSU) beat us in 2005, but Willingham was 2-1 against us, we lost in '98, etc.
Perhaps we should say "other than Weis once and at ND, ND hasn't had a marquee win in the last 10 years."
@Anonymous above
I think we don't celebrate mediocrity. Weis win was against our 7-5 team which was mediocre at best.
2004 sucked though it was Chad's first road game and Underwood was TB and not Hart I think. Maybe it was a quality win but no way warrants the arrogance of ND fans.
Drop ND, and schedule home-and-home against Georgia, Tennessee, Alabama, Texas, Oklahoma, Florida, Miami, USC, Cal, or FSU. For once, we should try to follow tOSU's footsteps.
Anon,
In 2004, we were not the team we became as soon as Hart became the number 1 back. And Chad struggled substantially with his rhythm, accuracy and knowledge of the system throughout the year and at that point was particularly vulnerable.
Yay, they beat the worst Michigan team in 20 years. Who DIDN'T?
(I'll tell you who: Penn State! LOL "clockgate"!)
Jeremy for Heisman
Hooray, it's the off-season and everyone gets to overreact! Yeah, there are some typical "Screw UM!" comments in the response to the post on BGS. Just like there are typical "Screw ND!" responses to any post on this blog about Notre Dame.
But if you actually read the post I wrote, aside from shoehorning in a silly movie reference that I was reminded of while reading Martin's comments, I never claim that Michigan really wants to drop ND. Re-read the last paragraph. Michigan wants to move the game to make for a better home schedule. That makes complete sense to me. ND wants to avoid it for the same reason. All I said was "it will be interesting to see who flinches". And as you read BGS Brian, you should know we're not big fans of our current athletic director and his penchant for avoiding tough opponents.
Frankly, it's insulting that in your rush to slam BGS yet again you just lump me in with all the responses, some of which, admittedly, are pretty overzealous. I even disagreed in the comment section with the guy who made the "Charlie is the lawn mower" comment. But I guess that doesn't make for a good, "boy look how dumb those domers are!!1!" post to mention that.
my favorite comment was the guy who was crying about how Michigan scheduled Toledo INSTEAD of Notre Dame. Never mind the fact that Toledo is scheduled in 2008 for the weekend following the Notre Dame game. Pure genius.
Why can't Notre Dame say, "Ok Michigan. We understand where you're coming from. Let us ask USC if they would be willing to switch things around so we all win."
Oh that's right. They're the Irish. They concede to no one.
"And then there's the guy who blacked out for a convenient three-hour period last year"
In that guy's defense, it's not like Notre Dame had any top 20 NFL draft picks on their team last season.
Actually Mike, if ND approached USC like that, they would say no, because then they would have ND and UCLA at home (and on the road) in the same season. This is according to the USC fan who posted such on BGS.
I think a 3 game in 5 year plan could work if Michigan really wants to move the game.
Pat,
Brian may have extended his conclusions a little too far, but the extended portion of the post is devoted to the point that everyone took the "Michigan is dropping the series" as the truth of the matter, regardless the intent of your post and, of that populace, half made asinine responses. If it were intended a silly movie reference, your readers did not take it as such. In fact, the post managed to generate the most comments you guys have had in the month of May. And all for a joke.
Can't you just be thankful you didn't get lumped in with those of your commenters who are insane? ND fan with an entitlement complex? Say it ain't so!
Dam domers and their ego's. They kill me. Do they not get it, that America detest their existence due to their ego's not matching the production. Michigan should show them the royal "fuck you" and schedule Pac-10 and Big 12 schools, area's they primarily recruit........
my favorite:
"If Michigan wants to avoid playing Ohio State and Notre Dame, both of them either home or away in the same year, perhaps Ohio State could host them two years in a row, and then go to alternating years."
yes, thats exactly how big 10 conference scheduling works. its clear that ND fans are way too caught up in this independant thing. either stop refusing to budge on scheduling or join a conference allready!
Pat,
Do you sense a pattern here?
The last few posts are from PSU, OSU and obviously Michigan posters. You cannot claim that college football doesn't like ND because of "jealousy" since you know how your last games against OSU and Mich went. Not J.
Majority of the comments of your "You know why I know you're Michigan" post is a clue as to why it is like it is.
Brian I am so glad you posted this...I was falling out of my chair reading those comments on BGS.
Pat,
It's disingenous to say "re-read the last paragraph." If someone were to do that, they should re-read the second to last paragraph too.
Your intent with the post is unmistakable.
When the two schools took breaks in the modern day series, i.e. since 1978, both of them did just fine finding other opponents to play in September.
In 2000 and 2001, Michigan had games at UCLA and at Washington. During those same years, Notre Dame played a home-and-home series with Nebraska vice UM.
In 1995 and 1996, Notre Dame played a home-and-home series with Ohio State. Michigan had Virginia and Boston College in 1995 and at Colorado, Boston College and UCLA in 1996 as part of the non-conference schedule (an unlikely combination in the present BCS world, unfortunately).
In 1983 and 1984, the Big Ten Conference conducted a two-year experiement playing nine conference games. Michigan played Washington and at Washington State in 1983 and Miami-Florida and Washington in 1984. Notre Dame had Colorado and Miami-Florida early in the season.
If past experience holds, both programs will find a suitable substitute to put into a date in September.
For Notre Dame, it means playing a major non-Big Ten program from one of the BCS conferences. Scheduling an Oklahoma or Florida State, etc. has to be easier than trying to get one of those teams in October or November during the conference schedule--this is expecially true in the BCS era.
Michigan can emulate the strategy that Ohio State is using by playing major programs from different regions (such as the last two seasons with the home-and-home series with Texas). UM, for example, has never played Louisiana State--I think every Wolverine fan would enjoy the prospect of a home-and-home with LSU.
Bill Martin points out the value of the series for both schools--its the highest rated early season game on television. I'm sure NBC and ABC/ESPN know that as well--it would be unwise to discount the networks' interest in continuing the series.
It will take a creative solution to keep the series going beyond 2011. It'll be intersting to see what Martin and Kevin White conjure up.
My only advise to Martin is to make sure he gets it in writing--Kevin White has a history of forgetting about gentleman's agreements.
@Pat:
What's hilarious about USC's (potential) response to ND's (potential) request to move the USC-ND game is that USC plays the (away) UCLA game in Pasadena. It's not like they have to go to Columbus and South Bend in the same year. It's just going to the Rose Bowl (which is a lot different from Columbus; ask any Texas fan if you don't believe me).
The 2nd to last paragraph (BGS) is the only one with which to take issue and doesn't really fit in with the rest of the posting. Otherwise it's an interesting information item. Michigan doesn't want ND and OSU home/away in the same year, but it would be difficult to switch because it would put ND in a similar situation with Michigan and USC. That's it.
How that degenerated into a horseshit "Around the Horn" type analysis on both comment boards is beyond me.
Never a bad time to get the rivalry juices flowing..
CFB smack talk in May makes me feel alive!
Isn't Martin basically saying he has some fear of ND by demanding this?
IT'S NOTRE DAME! THEY HAVE BEEN MEDIOCRE FOR WELL OVER A DECADE AND DON'T HAVE ANYWHERE CLOSE TO ELITE TALENT!
Just because Lloyd had that horrendous road opener streak and failed to beat weak ND teams in 1998, 2002 and 2004 doesn't mean we should fear playing there.
DoubleB - The second to last paragraph doesn't fit in because it's a direct parody of the original movie quote, which I linked in the previous paragraph. I guess I should have made it more obvious. Live and learn.
notre dame fans complaining about someone else's weak scheduling. amazing.
/so this is what glory returneth looks like?
//early reports are that the puerto rican military academy has not specifically denied it is not talks with notre dame for a home-and-home if michigan drops from the schedule
Oh please, everyone knows why ND desparately needs to keep playing Michigan. They play enough Big Ten teams to be covered by the curse - as soon as they don't have Michigan and tOSU on their schedule, they will suck...the kind of suck the likes of which haven't been seen since, well, since Purdue missed both UM and tOSU.
I agree with cutter, we NEED to start playing SEC or B12 teams on a semi-regular basis if we ever hope to expand our recruitung efforts in those regions. Furthermore, it would go along way in silencing dissenters that comment on the superiority of SEC play. I would love to see a home and home against UT/OU/Nebraska or Bama/Florida/LSU or even an ACC team for that matter. Im an alum now and have the cash to visit those schools. And if I can speak for the students, I would be down for traveling to the South every other year instead of going to the 3rd Worst State Ever (Indiana; Ohio being 1 and Florida being 2, naturally).
"either stop refusing to budge on scheduling or join a conference allready!"
ND already plays Big 10 teams at the start of the season, which does little for the team. How is this "refusing to budge?" I would say that ND is far too accommodating to Big 10 teams like Purdue and MSU.
Also, asking USC, a rival who has never dodged or tried to blacklist ND, to change its schedule to accommodate Michigan is not reasonable.
Going to 3 in 5 would probably be best for both programs.
i think i speak for all michigan fans when i say fuck Notre Dame (and their delusional fans) and Go Blue!!!
oh and by the way domers good luck with an emu at the helm you should have gotten an ostrich.
It's division one football, its the university of michigan, it ain't Duke. You got 2 before purdue, you got a week before michigan state, you got a week after penn state, thats a month! Thats more big ten teams than any other non big ten team plays, and their all a little bummed out they don't get for big ten teams!
Go play the service academies domers. Go play the service academies.
The writers at BGS, and Notre Dame fans in general, take themselves waaay to seriously in just about everything they do when talking about ND football. Personally I think that's what makes them so insufferable.
What makes blogs like mgoblog and EDSBS so great? A healthy dose of irreverance.
Gees and you guys were making fun of the comments on that Notre Dame board. Perhaps re read your own comments.
ND fans and BGS take themselves too seriously?
Who devoted an entire post as a response to a post on BGS?
A Michigan fan.
Look in the mirror, fellas. ND has been keeping the Big 1? alive for years.
Good luck against the Illini, Gophers, Wildcats, and whatever other garbage the Big 1? trots out this year.
Wow, thoughtless and incendiary comments about a rival were posted by anoymous college football fans on the internet? SHOCKING!!!!
This is a lame post designed to raise the ire/interest of your readers. You might as well be the main stream media you profess to hate.
Hypocrite.
So let me get this straight. You last three commenters, yes, you, the fairy Irish posters that went to Indiana University-South Bend, come over here complaining about how Brian made a post about another blog? I would call the hypocrisy here, but I'm increasingly convinced you idiots have no idea what that word is. You get what you pay for, huh?
Notre Dame has not been keeping the Big Ten alive for years pally. We do that quite well ourselves. We’re a real conference you see, so not only do we play actual schedules known throughout the country with a group behind us that is known just as well, we also have support from fellow Big Teners. See these OSU, PSU, and Iowa fans commenting? Yeah, which conference are they from again? You would do well to join a conference. Maybe you’d have six or seven more returns to glory in the next decade then.
Finally, troll Leo, could your jealousy be any larger. Just because BGS doesn’t have the kind of writer in Brian that MGoBlog has, doesn’t mean that you should attack his style and talent. You’re not a douche bag because you’re a Notre Dame fan. You’re just a douche bag.
really the whole Big 10 should move on this together. it's far more damaging for Notre Dame then it is for us. If they didn't play Big 10 teams they wouldn't have a relevant game in their home region and would lose touch with the fans. They also have their own tv contract and I doubt NBC would really be happy if all they got to show for it is a game against USC every other year. It's the highest rated out of conference game of the year, that should give it leverage over the USC series they having going. It's also more of a benefit to ND by way of their direct NBC contract then it is to Michigan being loosely shown on ABC. Lets close out this series on a high note and start playing some teams from the South/West, hopefully that will help with our bowl/road form and we'd be travelling a bit more then just down to that hole in south bend.
ND would also suffer from not playing at Michigan. Away teams make more from a game at the big house then anywhere else in the country. It'd take 3-4 years of service academy games to make up for that
When was the last time USC played Notre Dame at South Bend in November? It doesn't happen because the Trojans have no intention playing there in the cold weather.
So, please, let's not put the USC-ND relationship on a pedestal.
I am not into the whole brevity thing.
Not sure if I'm jealous of Brian's writing style since most of this post is copy and paste.
But seriously, I think he's as fine a writer as any football blogger. What I think is worth calling out is his quick fire, unsubstantiated criticism of anything ND related. There was nothing vitriolic (overt or implied) in the BGS post. But Brian just had to find something wrong with it, so he published reader comments as evidence of a collective BGS-sponsored ND ignorance. That's kind of like BGS posting an article blasting Brian as a homophobic, anti-catholic biggot by citing your "fairy" and "douchebag" comments...classy!
But let's be serious for a moment, if you think Martin's comments we're benign, you're choosing to ignore the "preseason" reference. What he's saying is, "sure, the ND game is big, but not as important as when we play Indiana and Northwestern." It should be obvious to anyone who isn't retarded or delusional that he's actually unprovokingly slamming ND. Again, you stay classy Michigan!
I would love to see the Big Ten get together to deny Notre Dame the advantage of playing a quasi-Big Ten schedule. Let's see them try to convince SEC, ACC, and Big XII schools to come north. Tell them either join the conference or don't play us anymore. They deserve to be knocked off their lofty perch. Show them they need the Big Ten conference more than the Big Ten conference needs them.
Leo,
Your characterization of "preseason" seems wrong to me. He was making a factual statement which required the use of a qualifier. I fail to see how that has any implication, other than noting that it is not, in fact, Big 10 league play. But that's simply true, not evasive of suggestive, especially given the explicit nature of the quote:
"I don't want to drop it," he says.
A little off topic, but... GO PISTONS! A very lucky 2-0, but I'll take it.
Ohio State has been on top in the nation about scheduling big time opponents. Texas, the past two seasons, USC, Miami (fl) and Oklahoma within the next decade. Sissy's?
I'd rather see Pitt or Louisville in the Big 10 than ND. Those places are a hell of a lot better to visit.
I'm down with playing some out of region teams every year. Ever since I graduated Michigan has not played a legit away game outside of ND in the non-conference schedule. I want to see some cool places.
"See these OSU, PSU, and Iowa fans commenting? Yeah, which conference are they from again? You would do well to join a conference."
Exactly. We should join a conference so that people from other schools will post supportive messages on a blog. Never mind the cost sharing revenue with pathetic programs like Illinois and Indiana--we could have PSU fans stick up for us online!
"When was the last time USC played Notre Dame at South Bend in November? It doesn't happen because the Trojans have no intention playing there in the cold weather."
A far cry from preventing ND from entering its conference and not scheduling it during some of its greatest years. ND should accommodate rivals, not enemies.
Oh, we're all pretty familiar with how Notre Dame and its "accomodations" in terms of schedule.
Under Holtz, Notre Dame began scheduling opponents prior to playing Michigan in the early 1990s. We all know the adage about how teams improve the most from game one to game two.
Then came the 1993 scheduling agreement that was supposed to put an end to that practice. Six years later, Notre Dame forgets all about what had been agreed upon and plays a game against a mediocre Kansas team in preparation for what was supposed to be their season opener at Michigan. If anyone knows the meaning of "preseason" while drawing a blank on "gentleman's agreement", it would have to be Notre Dame.
If Michigan is such an enemy and the relationship is so acrimonious, then Kevin White and the Notre Dame athletic department should make alternate scheduling plans for 2012 and beyond. No one's hold a gun to his head (except, perhaps, NBC) and the two schools have done quite nicely without playing one another in football for long stretches of time.
One other thing. When I was at last year's Michigan football fantasy camp, Lloyd Carr was asked during a Q&A session about the possibility of a twelfth team for the Big Ten.
The only program he mentioned in his answer was Connecticut. It would mean extending the conference's geographic footprint and television coverage into the northeast in the same manner the Atlantic Coast Conference was looking at when it added Boston College and tried to get Syracuse out of the Big East. UConn has obvious strengths in men's and women's basketball and has made the necessary infrastructure improvements to be competitive in football, i.e., a new stadium.
Bo was right. I say drop them like a bad habit. They need us a lot more than we need them. Plying ND is nothing more than a historical yawn.
The Big 10 schedule with one quality (read: PAC 10, SEC, or Big 12 team) is good enough to get an undefeated team into the BCS game.
Enjoy the Commander in Chief's Trophy trophy suckers....
Er, yeah. Let it go, guys. Any fairly objective observer can see that Bill Martin's "preseason" comment is a harmless one. If Domers choose to cling on that comment as an insult to their collective pride, I don't think we can ever get to an agreement on anything.
I won't be disappointed if ND is dropped from the schedule after '11. We have one bitter rivalry (tOSU) and one in-state rivalry (MSU). That's more than what most schools have. Michigan really needs to schedule away games outside of its traditional footprint (the B10 and Pac10 country). Playing in the Northeast against BC or Rutgers (in Giants Stadium) or in the Southeast against one of the SEC powers (preferably Georgia or Florida) can do wonders for recruiting.
Leo,
This is too easy. First you say you respect Brian as a writer, which of course is of no relation to when you call him a hypocrite and msm writer. Right. You truly respect him.
Then you take issue with the fact that he is implying that BGS is affiliated with the comments that exist under the post. Except...Brian doesn't do that. He merely says that the true entertainment lies in the reaction of Irish fans, that eat us the BGS BS like pigs at the trough. You seem to believe now that there is a connection between the commenters of a blog and the actual blogger themself. That is a connection you are making, not Brian. And for the record buddy, I'm Catholic, so save the holier than thou bullshit for later.
And back to Martin's comments: please, give me a break. Martin wants to continue the series. You all seemed to eat up the crap that your ever so wry blogger at BGS brought up about him being scared of ND (hahah, 47-21, etc.), without even reading the real comments. You're taking offense to "preseason"? We play a conference schedule you dolt. That is our primary season. Join a conference already.
As echoed before, the reason why Irish fans are hated is not because any fan is jealous of the treatment the school receives. Rather, we hate ND because the fans are ignorant, blind, arrogant, and self-promoting. You could learn a lot from that Jesus that you claim to represent.
To my Big Ten brothers....You are wasting your breath trying to convince the Domers that they are NOT idiots!! OSU has in the next ten years home and homes series with USC, Virginia Tech, Miami (FLA), Cal-Berkeley and Oklahoma. I personally, can't wait and I really do not care if we split all of those games. The opportunity to go see some terrific football at those other schools outweighs any of the win-loss crap. I will admit however that ARMY does show up on the schedule as well which makes me wonder!!
Um, I like the game. Like it or not, and recent records aside, Notre Dame is a big name in college football. Why shouldn't the two biggest names meet? Plus, the game, historically, has had some AMAZING plays - Rocket Ishmail, Desmond's catch, Remy's last minute field goal, last year's BEATDOWN. As much as Notre Dame likes to keep saying "we only have one rival", this game is exactly what college football is about. I hate Notre Dame, but come on - if you've ever been to a Michigan - Notre Dame game, especially if you've been to a Michigan win at Notre Dame, you can't honestly say that these two teams shouldn't play each other.
Anon - I agree with you wholeheartedly that Michigan-Notre Dame games are generally pretty special. But this absurd notion propogated by Notre Dame fans that the school is bigger than college football and "doesn't need" Michigan and "props up" the Big Ten has gone on long enough. ND fans criticize the quality of the Big Ten (see the posts above), yet the school regularly schedules 3-4 games against the Big Ten each year. I LOVE the idea of the entire Big Ten team dropping ND like a ton of bricks. It would be a whole lot harder for Notre Dame to justify its exhibition games against the service academies when it doesn't have multiple games against a recognized power conference to lend it schedule legitimacy.
Oh, and to maintain the irreverance I talked about above, Zolton can kick Rudy's ass.
Zoltan could kick Rudy's ass, but he'd prefer to let legions of Hyperspace Mutant Romanians do it for him.
Michigan State and Purdue would never drop ND from their schedules. Its one of the few times either gets a sellout
Don't like ND either. Please DESTROY them at EVERY opportunity. :)
Notre Dame sucks. Please DESTROY them at every opportunity. :)
I am curious as to how long this could actually continue. It is getting pretty crazy - but what can you expect in late May?
I grew up in Ohio, and considering how much I hate Ohio State, I was, by default, a Michigan fan. Given that my father, my uncle, and a multitude of other relatives attended Notre Dame, I was also, by default, a Notre Dame fan. I eventually attended Notre Dame, as it was always my intention to go there, even though I was also accepted at UM.
From that perspective, there are a few things that stand out related to this banter. Too bad it has to be so vitriolic at times.
Martin has a "desire" to switch the ND series (i.e. taking off an odd number of years) to get ND and OSU on opposite "home" years. A very honorable thing, and something that any good AD worth his paycheck should do for his school. However, by doing that, it would impose a burden upon Notre Dame's AD White to change the USC series to avoid getting into a situation that UM is trying to get out of. Clearly, though, ND is in the driver seat in this case, as they are currently in a good situation that does not require a change, whereas UM is looking for a change for the benefit of their fanbase. All admirable causes for everyone involved - it just happens to be Michigan that is on the "losing end. I think that was all that Pat was trying to point out - he even said "It will be interesting to see who flinches first".
Martin also mentioned the word "preseason." It is interesting to see how this has been taken out of context - I think it is clear, given his audience at the time, that his "preseason" comment was meant as "Pre-conference-season". Simple enough, but easily misinterpreted. I am sure Canes' fans would have gone apeshit if Bowden called the FSU-Miami game "preseason" when refering to the conference schedules.
Good luck on UM getting the Big10 to "exclude" Notre Dame from their schedule. Impossible for a few reasons. First, Martin knows that he doesn't have the power and pull that Yost had when it came to blackballing Notre Dame. Secondly, Delaney loves the money for his conference. Third, Purdue is an instate rival. And finally, Notre Dame was the only school to show MSU some respect when Yost took a proverbial shat on them some 80 years ago.
It is also clearly evident that Notre Dame, and Michigan, would certainly have no problem filling out the void that would be created if they didn't play each other. ND would get the likes of Nebraska and OSU, and UM would get a Washington (or more likely a decent PAC-10 team) or a Texas. I don't think it would kill either school to not play each other.
Now, this may come off as egotistical (as many are wont to call us ND alum and fans), but I think that Notre Dame would be able to better adapt to playing UM and USC as home/home or away/away in the same year easier that UM can do against ND and OSU. Essentially, if Martin wants to do it, I think that ND would
dang, it cut off for being too long...
Anyway, I think that ND would probably be able to accomodate a change that Martin suggests given their ability to schedule 12 "open" dates, rather than the 4 that UM is limited to each year due to conference obligations. I certainly would have no problem seeing UM and USC on the road at the same time, knowing that it would be easier to get a Nebraska or FSU at home in the same year that it would be for UM.
Another comment with respect to schedules. There are 119 Division 1-A teams. But you can only schedule 12 of them. So, for every Service Academy that ND plays, Michigan gets to flex their muscles against Illinois and Indiana. It is just the vagaries of the sport. It makes it even worse for teams with conference obligations as they are REQUIRED to play a few pansies each year. However, it should be noted that Notre Dame plays the service academies each year as a show of respect for the tradition and history behind those games. However, now they are seen as "cupcake" games because the "Big-Time College Football Train" that Notre Dame is on dumped Navy and Air Force at the station 30 years ago. But that is okay with me - I would rather have Navy players training as captains on a battleship rather than QB's behind center.
Someone also mentioned recruiting, and how ND's recruits are gonna beat Michigan, blah, blah, sure, sure, yeah, yeah, whatever. However, this is something that I was thinking about. Of the 12 verbal commits that ND has received for the HS class of 2008 (ie guys finishing their Junior year), 6 of them had already received Michigan offers. I am curious (and maybe someone here like Brian or anyone that follows recruiting can research this) - where does Michigan compare with respect to recruits that have verbally committed to Michigan with ND offers on the table? 50%? 100%? 25%? Are there hard numbers? Is this something that both schools share, or does one school clearly dominate in the "stolen similar recruite" category? Anyone?
Regardless, I forgot the rest of my post (I knew I should have used "copy"). Sorry for it being so long. I decided to post it here, rather than at BGS, because over there it would have been passed off as singing to the choir. Hopefully I can show that not all ND alum and fans are moronic idiots.
You've made your point. You're a clever idiot unlike most ND alums and fans. Actually, you posted the same theory at BGS about ND returning to glory by stealing all of UM's talent. Did you ever consider that the reason a lot of your recruits have UM offers is because we're in on your guys unlike our guys like Mallett and Cissoko who never even talked to ND? What about McGuffie and Gray? Jonathan Baldwin? Omar Hunter, Marcus Witherspoon, JB Fitzgerald? Can we count Stonum or is stealin him from Texas, Florida and USC not good enough?
i didn't bother reading past comment 45 or 50, but my take is basically this: bill martin doesn't want a year where 2 marquee games are on the road. this hurts home scheduling, pisses off the fans, and essentially boils down to a money issue. every year with either Notre Dame or OSU is better than one year with both and one year with neither. imo.
Notre Dame doesn't really have twelve open dates. As has been extensively noted, the Big Ten only plays ND in the first third of the season with all the games typically taking place in September. That blocks out the first month of the season unless Notre Dame decides to decrease the number of games it plays each season against the B10.
Secondly, in the BCS era, there aren't going to be too many major programs who would play Notre Dame during the conference portion of the season. USC is the obvious exception, although it has been noted that the Trojans will not play in South Bend in November.
What that means is a generally top heavy schedule with the majority of the better competition in the early part of the season for Notre Dame. The latter two-thirds of the schedule generally include USC and other PAC 10 teams (most recently, Stanford), the annual contest against Navy, perhaps a second military school (Air Force or Army) and games against the Big East (three per year according to the recent scheduling agreement between ND and the BE) or Mountain West. Conspicious in their absense are the major programs from the ACC, Big XII and SEC on any regular basis (and no, I don't include Duke and North Carolina as major programs in the ACC).
It will be interesting to see what Notre Dame does with its 7 Home-4 Away-1 Neutral site schedule and the desire to play in neutral venues during the regular season. While the local Irish fans in New Orleans or Dallas might enjoy wathching Notre Dame beat up the likes of Tulane or Baylor in person, I don't see that being "must see" television.
Going back to the first paragraph, I could certainly see why Notre Dame would want to take Michigan off the schedule in order to open a date for a major program from a BCS conference. It wouldn't surprise me to see ND continue its series with Purdue or Michigan State (although the MSU series also ends in 2011), and cut down the number of games against the Wolverines in order to play one of the heavy hitters from down South in September. It also wouldn't surprise me to see ND begin the season with a warm-up game. As I mentioned earlier, Holtz did this in the early 90s by putting the likes of Northwestern and Indiana at the beginning of the schedule. Then there was 1999 and the game with Kansas and the shuffle in the early 2000s (2002, I think) to move the Brigham Young game up to the opener as well.
If Notre Dame would have an easier time adapting to having both the USC and Michigan games either away or home on alternate years, then why doesn't ND AD Kevin White just agree to Bill Martin's proposal? They've been talking about the terms for renewing the series for at least three years now.
And when you speak to adapting, do you mean that Notre Dame is in a better position to change up its schedule enough to ensure enough exciting home dates for the fanbase and NBC? Or do you mean that ND would be able to be successful on the gridiron despite playing on the road in Ann Arbor and Los Angeles every other year?
Exactly how many dollars more does Notre Dame bring the Big Ten every year by playing the conference three to four games per year that some other combination of big name teams couldn't bring? I keep hearing about how ND is a big moneymaker to the B10, but no one tells me specifically how it happens. Greater ticket sales? Expotentially larger television ratings? Conversely, how much is it worth Notre Dame to continue to play Michigan in terms of its contract with NBC? That money train Irish fans keep talking about runs both ways.
Also, for the record, the U.S. Navy no longer has any active duty battleships. I don't think anyone attending the U.S. Naval Academy has ambitions of becoming C.O. of a mothballed BB.
Actually Notre Dame will not be allowed to change the USC schedule as USC will not play Notre Dame in November at South Bend. Notre Dame will travel to USC in October or November but it doesn't work for USC. As for ND playing military schools, this was the first time in 10 years that ND played three service teams. But ND will never schedule Toledo, Ball State, Buffalo, Northern Illinois etc..... Notre Dame lost the first 8 games they played Michigan.....Since the rivalry has been renewed 1978 to present only USC and Notre Dame have winning records against Michigan !!!!
Notre Dame and NBC give all opponents 1 million dollars for the trip to Notre Dame Staduim. That is a nice bus ride to and from for Michigan, MSU and Purdue. The entire budget for the Navy football program is $500,000 per year without the ND/NBC money. Notre Dame pays more money to schools then some bowls games. I'm a Notre Dame fan in all sports and don't want the ND/UofM series to end in any sport, it's great for athletics and good for both schools. I would perfer to have ND join the Big Ten, for better or worse, but I don't make the rules.
Commenting by HaloScan
