You are so concerned with the destabilization of Mexico and other countries..yet you tear apart a comment from the American carpenter thats speaks of the destabilization of the construction trades wages.Do you seriously think carpenters should be happy to do their job for less money because illegals are underbidding them? I dont know what you do for a living,but imagine one day it is you who has to take a huge paycut because some illegal will do your job cheap. Your tune would change.But I believe your job must be in no danger of being lost to a cheap illegal,otherwise you wouldnt be thinking so crazy.You call these people our friends? With friends like that,who needs enemas?
You just completely missed the entire point of the carpenter you're so vigorously defending.
And yes I'm concerned about destabilizing other countries, especially when they border us. In a world so integrated as this one is right now, destabilizing a populous country that borders us AND does so much business with the US will have disastrous repercussions on the US.
The two pressing concerns that the Right have on this issue is that 1) these immigrants are illegally crossing the border and 2) they're a drain on our society. Hendricks argument is that not only do they use very little of our benefits at the end of the day (for what they pay in), but they're most likely a boon to our economy.
A guest worker program with a path to citizenship helps alleviate both of these problems, although as stated above, problem 2 doesn't really exist in the magnitude the Repubs are saying it does. It would also make sure that all these businesses have to pay immigrants the same wages they pay the carpenter (unless the immigrant just plain and simple offers to still undercut the price of the carpenter. at which point and time that's just the free market system at work.)
Of course very few hard-right Repubs want anything to do with a path to citizenship for these immigrants. Which leads me to believe that there's another belief lying below the surface.
I like the concept that Mexican remittances are libertarian, I had not considered that. But Hendricks is illogical here:
If all or most of the undocumented workers were evicted from the United States, the loss of those remittances would destabilize Mexico to the point that it would harm the U.S. economy, not to mention send larger waves of workers into the U.S. market.
Um, if they are evicted (and presumably, that implies enforcement to prevent readmittance), then how will it "send larger waves of workers into the US market"? They either won't be able to get back in, or will be redeported.
Weak argument on his part.
You just don't get it do you? Give away the country to anyone. Read the carpenters story again, go into an emergency room, look at the number of illigals in our schools, in our prisons. You just don't get it, do you?
Mark,
What Hendricks is saying is that throwing all of these guys out of the country would destabilize Mexico, thereby forcing even more workers to find work elsewhere.
Elsewhere being the US. And the reality of this is, even building a wall that extends 1 mile below ground and 100 feet above ground with 100 more feet of flames shooting out above it isn't going to keep people from coming in.
throwing all of these guys out of the country would destabilize Mexico, thereby forcing even more workers to find work elsewhere.
But if we throw out 12 million illegal aliens in order to cause such instability, we certainly have room to absorb the additional ones who somehow squeeze through the presumably strengthened border. Until 12 million of them squeeze through, we're no worse off than today, right?
In the Business section no less.
Actually, that should not be a surprise at all. Who do you think benefits from illegal alien wages? Not American low-skilled labor, that's for sure.
American immigration debate is a Bizarro World where GW Bush's bidness buddies find common cause with bleeding heart liberals whose reflexive compassion for illegals keeps them from seeing the long-term negative consequences for poor Americans which results from unfettered illegal immigration.
But I believe your job must be in no danger of being lost to a cheap illegal,otherwise you wouldnt be thinking so crazy.
By the sound of it, Cincinnatus is some sort of college-educated political hack - indeed, not the sort who is in danger of losing his job to an illegal.
I don't see a problem with the number of illegal immigrants being in 'our' schools and hospitals. They pay the taxes, they should get their share of the public goods for which they pay. As for prisons, America has a prison problem to begin with. We have the greater share of our population in prison than any other country in the world. That's nuts!
But if we throw out 12 million illegal aliens in order to cause such instability, we certainly have room to absorb the additional ones who somehow squeeze through the presumably strengthened border. Until 12 million of them squeeze through, we're no worse off than today, right? First off - creating such a forced exodus into out neighboring country is going to be politically and economically destabilizing to them, and to us as well. A neighbor in political and economic will have more of its problems spill over to us, because we are interconnected with Mexico.
Secondly, consider the problem of removing 12 million people residing in the United States. What sorts of draconian measures would have to be enacted to find, catch and deport all these people?
What happens to our economy, when all these highly productive (for the cost) people are no longer working here? Sure, perhaps low-wage job wages would rise, but so would the cost of everything those jobs produce. Not only would the costs rise, the production would diminish. That 'supply & demand'-thing cuts both ways, bub!
All this trash-talk about 'kicking all the illegal immigrants out' is simply stupid nationalist wishful thinking. While there are definitely problems associated with illegal immigration, and reform is necessary - the armchair quarterbacking of what oughta be done is embarassingly simplistic (read: idiotic).
Secondly, consider the problem of removing 12 million people residing in the United States. What sorts of draconian measures would have to be enacted to find, catch and deport all these people?
No responsible opponent of illegal immigration is talking about deporting 12 million people at gunpoint. But that figure can be attrited quite effectively, and relatively painlessly, by simply enforcing the workplace laws already on the books, against the corporations who employ illegals. This must be done, of course, in conjunction with intensified border control. The 12 million could be reduced considerably in just a couple of years by voluntary emigration of illegals who cannot find work here.
MH,
The question becomes then, how many more- in addition to the 12 million sent back to their home country- would be destabilized and desperate enough to find a way into the US.
Is it "just" one million more, or is it something much, much bigger.
Here's my question to you MH:
Is it just because they're illegal, or is it because they're Mexican?
I'm not trying to give you a loaded question, so let me expound.
If Congress granted 15 million permanent resident visas tomorrow for unskilled laborers- provided that they return to a point of entry to register, have paid their share of taxes, and are not criminals (real criminals, not some lady who got a speeding ticket/parking citation, or some middle aged man who has an MIP from when he was 16_- is that something you could sign off on?
That might be amnesty in some way shape or form for you, so let me throw out another example for you.
Say we throw out the 12 million undocumented illegals right now, but Congress put up 12 million permanent resident visas for DIFFERENT potential immigrants so long as they went through a valid point of entry, did not have any sort of verifiable criminal record and had some promise of a job... or were given a time frame to get a job (30 days). Would something like that be amenable to you?
No, my Hispanic wife can confirm my opposition to illegal immigration is not racist.
I suppose my opposition is part revulsion at the flagrant violation of the rule of law, committed by the illegals but more importantly abetted and condoned, indeed celebrated, by their American supporters. It's not as if we don't let any furriners in the country, and I respect the value of immigration. But we have a right, as a nation, to determine the scale of immigration. The placards reading "No person is illegal" are far more obnoxious to me than a Mexican flag.
Culturally, my opposition is related to the above. I believe there is a limit to the number of immigrants which can be successfully assimilated into our society, and that current legal immigration quotas reflect that limit. I do make a pair of distinctions between previous waves of immigration: (1) they were not nearly so large in number or lengthy in time (2) those waves had essentially cut all ties with their native lands, and were therefore more assimilable...the current wave of Mexican immigration going back to their homeland three or four times per year, effectively prevents cultural assimilation to America, in my opinion.
Needless to say, Hispanic advocacy groups which are on record as opposing the entire concept of assimilation are, in my eyes, completely irresponsible.
Racial? If these people had all of the same characteristics: unlikelihood of assimilation, foreign language barrier, etc. but their skin was white, I can honestly say that would make no difference whatsoever in my firm opposition to illegal immigration by them. I don't deny that our nation has a shameful history of nativism (often espoused by recent immigrants themselves), but such a serious charge should be made only on an individual basis, not used as a blanket condemnation of anyone who dares oppose illegal immigration. The Minutemen have been seriously maligned in this regard: despite the meticulous oversight of their operations (and despite the fact that, yes, such an initiative might naturally be expected to attract some proportion of racists), not a single instance of abuse on their part has been documented...yet they continue to be prejudged and unfairly disparaged by editorialists and even GW Bush.
Economically, I have become convinced that not only does illegal labor obviously drive down low-skill wages, but that this results in unacceptable damage to the career aspirations of the most vulnerable Americans: low-skilled minorities. The low-skilled jobs performed by illegals drives down the wage to an unacceptable rate for these people, preventing them from entering the workforce and condemning them to a lifetime of poverty.
I like this formulation I read somewhere:
Democracy, multiculturalism, immigration: pick any two.
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