Good post, Chris.
That being said the manifesto was the biggest pile of watery, airy fairy, head in the fucking clouds, not a notion of what is going on, bullshit that I have ever had the misfortune of reading!!
It was. I've been saying this for a while and getting shouted down by Shinners.
Looking in from the outside it is hard to fathom. I associate SF with shrewdness and organisation. The party has had years to form coherent policies. What happened?
I think SF needs to be far more brave and frank. "32 county socialist republic" has been replaced by "Ireland of equals" which is watered-down, safe, bullshit. In fact, looking through SF literature you won't find a mention of socialism anywhere.
I think there is a place for a truly left-wing party who is comfortable with itself and confident in itself. As you say, the U-turn on corporation tax was risible and made SF look frightened of its own policies.
I'm favourably disposed to SF myself but I'm also worried. Are you guys going to become FF-lite or offer people a much needed alternative? I hope it's the latter.
Gaskin you tosser
Don't make me laugh. You lot don't want any 32 county socialist republic. You want power in any shape or form.
You have abandoned republicanism for some sort of FF-style inept 'we don't really mean it' nationalism and it has failed.
The Adams leadership has to go. They have you on the road to nowhere. The naked pursuit of power always leads there.
No guns, no vision, no hope.
This election showed that if you try to be everything to everybody you end up being nothing. The real left got votes, the real sellout republicans (80 years ago!) got votes and you lot suffered.
What exactly does Provisionalism stand for now? Anything?
As for calling FG 'blueshirts' this shows the same stupid infantile obsessions as ever. If you want people to believe you have moved on beyond your violent history perhaps you could try addressing what the other parties stand for today and not obsess on historical events that only partly led to FG coming together. Do you like it when people refer to your movement as terrorists? How is calling FG blueshirts any different?
Here, while we are at it - is the government of the Republic of Ireland the legitimate government, or do you still think that some part of the Provisional Movement is still the legitimate government of the Irish Republic as declared in 1916?
JG
They already are FF-lite.
Look where it got them.
As for left wing you have got to be kidding. Where is there any evidence of even mild socialism never mind pure left wing policies?
Chris - after this reversal is Pat Doherty going to fall on his sword ?
You mean as DOE? I don't think so
"It should also be born in mind that our share of the vote actually increased in this election despite the squeeze on the smaller parties."
Chris:
No it didn't. It is down, way down, from 2004:
PSF 2004 - 11.1%
PSF 2007 - 6.9%
How does this indicate that the PSF share of the vote is up? I know you will say you are referring to the last general election but that is meaningless. You achieved 11.1% in 2004, and you are now 38% below that. How come?
"I write them as a concerned and loyal member of the Republican movement."
Leave it out. Republicans indeed. The Provos are no longer republicans, unless you mean in the FF sense of the word - they claim to be the republican party.
My understanding of 'Republican Movement' was that it was loyal to the Irish Republic of 1916. Whatever happened to that? The true remaining Irish Republican groups are still loyal to that entity and while the Provos may still be they don't show any indication of it. You are a member of the Provisional Movement, whatever it stands for today. True Irish Republicans laugh at you as you try to proclaim that you are still Irish Republicans. All that decommissioning, sitting in Stormont and support for the NI police has put paid to any pretence that you mean it when you say you are still Irish Republicans If you ever were).
The first step in recovery here is to accept that you are not Irish Republicans any longer. Until you do that you are deluded. The people know this even if you lot don't. You can use the memories of hunger strikers, the PIRA, 1916 or whatever else you want but people aren't buying it. True IRs aren't and neither are 93% of the voters of the ROI.
Nice post Chris, although you know I don't agree with your politics. What do the people of the ROI know about SF that the nationalists of NI don't?
Also I wonder if FF and SDLP will link in the north to provide an alternative to SF?
At least SF in Stormont won't be crowing so loudly! 
Chris, I agree with most of what you wrote but with two things. First of all I can't see how you think the manifesto didn't provide clear policy proposals. If you look at the bullet points here in the section "Sinn Féin Priorities in Government" - there are dozens of clear statements of exactly what we would do in the areas of health care, housing, transport etc. We were missing costings, yes, but the clear policy proposals are there.
Also, as a member of the party in the constituency that Mary Lou stood in, I can state categorically that she was not parachuted in over the heads of the local organisation. She offered to stand there and, while many of us did have some of the concerns you've identified about her candidacy, there was a majority consensus that she had a better chance than anyone else we might have been able to get on the ticket. We would have preferred a local, of course, but a long trawl (which I was closely involved with) had failed to find anyone willing and suitable.
Wednesday
In relation to our "policies" they are merely statements of intent.
For example
• Complete a Green Paper on Irish Unity within one year, identifying steps and measures to promote and assist a successful transition to a United Ireland.
Not a bad policy but more detail needed
• Appoint a Minister of State to co-ordinate the Government's all-Ireland policies across Departments.
A new ministry? Part of an existing one? What? too vague
• Introduce 6 County elected representation in the Houses of the Oireachtas.
How, what, when and where?
Voting rights or no voting rights?
Which house? Dáil or Seanad? Will they be restricted?
• Begin the process of co-ordinating economic development, service provision and planning on an all-Ireland basis.
Waffly bullshit! The devil is always in the detail
• Commence a specific process of outreach to the unionist community to involve them in this planning as equal partners.
See response to above
• Secure a referendum on Irish Unity to be held simultaneously, north and south.
When?
• Begin the transition to a new universal public health system for Ireland that provides care to all free at the point of delivery, on the basis of need alone, and funded from general, fair and progressive taxation.
• Invest all health funding in the public system.
• Immediately end tax breaks for private hospitals and the land gift scheme.
• Provide full medical cards for all under the poverty line and all under-18s
• Make all new hospital consultant posts public-only.
• Develop a network of modern and accessible Primary Care Treatment Centres.
• Make advanced screening services available locally, promptly and widely.
• Deliver into the public hospital system the additional 3,000 hospital beds required.
• Reverse cutbacks in services at local hospitals and configure all hospitals to ensure that emergency services are available as locally as possible.
• Ring-fence at least 12% of the health budget for mental health services.
• Produce a fully resourced, comprehensive All-Ireland Suicide Prevention Strategy
This is the biggest pile of shite that I have ever heard, no figures, no costings, no detail, no action plan etc
This is the problem I was talking about and relates to our entire manefisto!!
Brian Hayes is a great politician and I'm sure he will make a fine TD. I was well pleased to see him romp home.
The Shinner's main problem in the south is that the only figure they are comfortable talking about is the number 32. Rhetoric won't get the job done down here.
I can state categorically that she was not parachuted in over the heads of the local organisation
I never said she was, she didn't however offer her services off her own bat. That decision was taken at a much higher level, as you and I both know.
She was however the wrong candidate for that constituency, through no fault of her own, yesterday proved that.
Rhetoric won't get the job done down here.
100% agree!
quite an astute analysis. I was one of those who was convinced Sinn Féin were going to take votes from FF's working class base. but yeah, this election has been a set-back, but that's all. The breakthrough is going to take a little while longer, that's all.
Chris, well done. The fiasco in the 26 was Dublin. We need to be brutally honest on what we collectively did wrong. The one thing it wasn't was a lack of hard work. I heard one colleague today say "we need to work harder" as if we are some sort of Stakhanovite drones. We need to utilise the base smarter not harder.
Chris,
a number of fundamentals have to be adressed. Gerry A did not connect as the public face of the SF campaign. A great asset on the campaign trail he failed miserably in studio discussions. Ursula Halligan and Brian Dobson (no heavyweights) cruelly exposed his lack of knowledge in the minutae of economics.
SF will in all probability get a senate seat. Pearse Doherty must be given this seat. A team of young party members must surround him and become the face of SF in the 26 counties. Eóin O Bróin is another for this team.
Northerners can help with party building etc but southerners must now be at the forefront of campaigns in that area.
I was on the trail in Dublin Mid West with Joanne Spain, another great asset and we got a good reception. A far warmer reception than previous elections, so the notion that northerns scare southerners off is simply not true
On taxation SF did change their corporation policy mid campaign and looked all over the place. Also the position of being willing to share power with just about anyone gave the impresssion of a party devoid of principles and hungry for power.
As always we should take the results away and analyse to death. If on egood thing can come of it it is the fact that many young SF members have tasted defeat (and it is defeat) for the first time since 94. Their reaction will be an indicator of how strong the party really is.
The one thing it wasn't was a lack of hard work. I heard one colleague today say "we need to work harder" as if we are some sort of Stakhanovite drones. We need to utilise the base smarter not harder
True, hard work was not the reason and our people could not have worked any harder.
SF will in all probability get a senate seat. Pearse Doherty must be given this seat. A team of young party members must surround him and become the face of SF in the 26 counties. Eóin O Bróin is another for this team
Agreed
Northerners can help with party building etc but southerners must now be at the forefront of campaigns in that area.
Agree 110%!!
so the notion that northerns scare southerners off is simply not true
I didn't say they did, I just said there was a perception that we were babysitting them. Something that is neither necessary or helpfull.
We have some excellent young candidates, male and female. They will come back from this.
the fact that many young SF members have tasted defeat (and it is defeat) for the first time since 94. Their reaction will be an indicator of how strong the party really is.
I know what you mean, this is my first taste of defeat as a Sinn Féin member. I also believe that young Shinners, like our older comrades are at their strongest when we are under pressure.
I expect them to come out fighting!
Sinn Féin don't get the vote they do north of the border because they are are a socialist party.
It is easy to be socialist when someone else is paying as is the case in the North where the British are propping up the system.
You try introduce a socialist system in Ireland and see how far it gets you. Social there is a market for, socialist no, unless you would be happy with perhaps at most 15 seats and sometimes as few as 5 and never being in power.
Good post by the way, the lack of costed policies was frightening but it will be a good learning curve if you are indicative of how Sinn Féiners are taking the result.
Actually Chris, I think you should drop the "Socialist" tag in favour of"Social Democracy". Unfortunately the right wing media have painted "Socialist" = "Stalinist". It's a small change and better reflects the reality.
In policy terms: the first thing is being honest with what it is you are trying to do. As Mick pointed out on Slugger, both SF and Labour really want to move Ireland from an Anglo model to a Nordic one. The problem is that, despite the obvious problems with the Anglo model, it has been on balance good for Ireland over the last while - a lot of people have prospered, even as inequality and crime rises. That makes it difficult for the Left, people are comfortable where they are, they don't believe the changes can be made with destroying what's in place. It's compounded by the waste of the Government: people don't believe more money is necessary.
It seems to me that what SF need to do is set the things they'd really like - e.g. Universal Healthcare, as long term achievable goals, and produce a set of short term policies that:
1. Are modest in scope
2. Are very, very tightly costed within current budgets
3. Show a clear ideological distinction and movement towards the goal
4. Appeal to the middle class (no, SF can't appeal to everyone. It has to get some middle class buy-in to make significant change)
I think the classic example is UK Labour's 1997 pledge to cut class sizes. It dealt with a problem people were worried about, it offered a clear benefit, should a different direction from the current government, it was memorable and pretty cheap. Once you've built gained trust and support, you can ask for more cash and be more ambitious.
I think there is some concern in the South over the type of society they want to be and the greed and the corruption. I think people would welcome a compassionate alternative that is backed up some good ideas and some people. SF need to focus on that party being them and not the Labour party, and not about getting into Government. Government will flow form a good position, not the other way around.
Also - harpo
Comparisons between Euro and Dail elections are meaningless partly because of the different systems, but primarily because of the turnout differential. It is disingenuous to argue otherwise, or make predictions on them - as SF has found out to its cost.
What were turnout figures like ?
SF usually have a higher turnout of their supporters - was part of their problem at this election that FF and FG voters came out which nullified SF's advantage?
Turnout was high, yes
MR - yes
your idea of a standing on your 32 socialist republic would be disasterous. Your politically very naive.
Chris, the point of an election manifesto is to announce what you would do if elected. Ours did that. It was 78 pages as it was (and that, only after having been heavily edited) - the only way to provide the level of detail you seek would be to make it so long as to be virtually unreadable. No party did that, so it's a bit strange to think that we should have been expected to.
she didn't however offer her services off her own bat. That decision was taken at a much higher level, as you and I both know.
Actually that's not really true either. This isn't the place to go into it, but if you want to drop me an email, I'll be happy to tell you the full sordid story (offer available only to actual party members!).
Chris - there's 20 B&H in it for you if you share
SF usually have a higher turnout of their supporters - was part of their problem at this election that FF and FG voters came out which nullified SF's advantage?
It wasn't just that their turnout was up - ours was also down. We lost votes in most constituencies, including the ones in which we retained seats.
To say this is a stunning setback for Sinn Fein is no exageration. The leadership will address this with another round of principle dithching the problem is that there is almost nothing left to give up now.
The southern arm of the party are going to have to be more self reliant but the talents just not there. They need to fight there own elections rather than let Gerry and the northern leadership loose on the southern electorate. Adams performance on prime time was very poor and the party manifesto stood for nothing in reality and everything in theory, mixed messages about corporation tax and wild pre election predictions were all mistakes. However to use some shinner speak the reality is there simply isn't enough room in southern irish politics for another Fianna Fail which is what the middle aged leadership of the party have advocated in this election.
What was also very niave of Sinn Fein is to figure that the people who voted Sinn Fein last time will continue to vote Sinn Fein. The south is not like the north Shinner voters stop voting sinn fein when they die up north. Here in the south politics is much more fluid.
It will be very interesting to see how the southern part of the party react to this defeat.
ours was also down. We lost votes in most constituencies, including the ones in which we retained seats.
ouch - that's much more serious then.
The pendulum has swung here - I remember when the problem was seen that the RM was dominated by the 26 counties - and back then the seismic change was when Northern republicans such as Adams and McGuinness took control. As others have pointed out things are so different in the two entities that it is going to be very difficult to reconcile the two different needs and priorities - not to mention the difficulty of establishing a leadership that can ride two horses at the same time.
"Why would I vote for someone because of what they did in the past?"
Because you liked them shooting and bombing people to free Ireland?
"I want to know what are they going to do for me in the future!"
Feck all.
Hey Chris - you promised to revisit this thread on ATW in May after the election
http://
atangledweb.squarespace.c...l#comment838836
are you as good as your word???
Wednesday,
I'm a party member and would like to hear what you are saying but I don't see your email address.
I think there is a place for a truly left-wing party who is comfortable with itself and confident in itself. As you say, the U-turn on corporation tax was risible and made SF look frightened of its own policies.
I have to say that, while the manner of it left a lot to be desired, I think that decision was the right one.
The desire to match the Republic's corporation tax is one of the biggest drivers for the all-Ireland economy in the North. I don't think the largest nationalist party in the north can afford to ignore that.
The biggest beneficiary of a Corporation Tax increase in the Republic would probably be Gordon Brown.
".... we got a good reception. A far warmer reception than previous elections, so the notion that northerns scare southerners off is simply not true"
I'd be one of the middle-class but left leaning doors where you got a warm reception, but no vote. Why?
Frankly when I have people who scare me on my doorstep I'm gonna be nice to them, I like a quiet life. Plus I tend to be polite to people anyway, it's my nature.
I knew that the man standing enthusiastically talking to me had been involved in murders. So I smiled, engaged in a little banter, took the leaflets full of nonsense and then got on with my life.
I wouldn't underestimate that reality when talking about warm receptions. You scare people. It may not be fair, but it's true.
Chris, the point of an election manifesto is to announce what you would do if elected. Ours did that.
It didn't Wednesday, it was a mere statement of itent. It didn't lay out the actual steps we would take to secure these changes, didn't show were the money was coming from etc
Ours did that. It was 78 pages as it was (and that, only after having been heavily edited)
I know, I was sad enough to read it
This comes down to my point about how we formulate policy, we don't use our resourses or time productivly.
I know you were involved in the Health policy, I also know of others who were involved in this, in agriculture, education etc
I am not casting doubt on the work that went into it, I know what work went into it.
The simple reality is though that we can never answer any policy questions except with vague bullshit.
The case in point was Gerry on the leaders debate.
P=" Health, how would your party tackle this?"
G=" Well, we believe that people have rights (5th time he said that)"
I mean, for fuck sake!!!!
We have always been afraid of the detail, we spin and bullshit around it.
That is no longer good enough!
This isn't the place to go into it, but if you want to drop me an email
Agreed
I have lost your e-mail, can you e-mail me?
Very disappointed with the election but glad to see that some are seeing the result as a challenge.
I am not a party member which allows me to say it as I see it.
The Marxist nonsense has to go.
Less (much less) concentration on the north which includes the party hierarchy.
Sort out the economics. I still dont know what the party stands for.
Gerry et al are great at looking at the big picture but SF took the people for granted and believed the hype.
But its not the end of the world - a setback, thats all it is. Pick up the baton and challenge the leadership. Ask the hard questions and don't stop until you get the answers.
Ireland needs a smart alternative to the two big parties (or are they the same).
2009 - thats the challenge.
It didn't Wednesday, it was a mere statement of itent. It didn't lay out the actual steps we would take to secure these changes, didn't show were the money was coming from etc
On the money, our position was always that the money was already there from the tax take (and that in any case we would carry out a tax review and not be afraid to raise it where necessary).
And again, manifestos aren't meant to be a step-by-step guide. They are a statement of policy intent. I just don't see how you can say that things like "provide medical cards to all under 18s", "end tax breaks for private hospitals" etc aren't clear statements of policy intent.
Will email you on the other stuff (as for you Mark, sorry but you could be a journo for all I know )
"You’re wasted here, parcifal. You’d be better off being Chris Gaskin’s speechwriter."
One for the record
A very honest and clear analysis Chris, maith thú!.
It's about time we faced up to these problems rather than adopting an Ostrich approach. We lost Sean and we almost lost Aengus. We didn't make the gains we hoped and we need to be asking ourselves why.
Perhaps if the leadership listened to loyal Sinn Féin members like Chris and Wednesday rather that former Fianna Fáilers like Mary Lou McDonald we wouldn't be in this mess.
It's time to ask questions of the leadership and the direction in which they are bringing us.
On the money, our position was always that the money was already there from the tax take
That's not good enough Wednesday, not at this stage. We had no clear costings and to a lot of the electorate our policies were vague and non-commital.
I acccept that some were not like the free medical card for under 18's and tax breaks.
That doesn't make a manefisto and it doesn't make up for a lack of clear policies in other areas.
Have you ever heard a single one of our reps handle these questions with any degree of confidence during the campaign?
I didn't and I'm an election junkie
LOL Mona!
I don't need a speech writer and I never will!
Caoimhghín answered them clearly . Unfortunately they didn't use him!
Which email should I use btw, still the QUB one?
Caoimhghín is one of our best speakers, he wasn't used enough!
Use the QUB one Wednesday, thanks.
Chris / Wednesday
Tom Griffin's analysis on The Green Ribbon should be mailed to every single party member:
http://www.tomgriffin.org/
the_gr...eland.html#more
Bad few days for you Chris. Donegal have just beaten Armagh in the Championship for the fist time since 1993!
I know JG, I must have really annoyed the man upstairs
"I don't need a speech writer and I never will!"
"Gaskin is a fucking idiot."
http://p088.ezboard.com/
fdebcenr...icID=4834.topic
Indeed!
...and on top of everything, the trolls are emerging from under their rocks.
I know JG, trolls always spring up.
Ellie, haven't you traffic you could be playing with?
"Comparisons between Euro and Dail elections are meaningless partly because of the different systems, but primarily because of the turnout differential."
kensei:
Nonsense.
You got 197,700 votes in 2004, 142,500 in 2007.
Turnout levels and different systems be damned.
Those were bums on seats, and over 50,000 have disappeared. Why did 50,000 people abandon you?
Or maybe go and wave at some planes, Ellie. I'm told people of your IQ find that type of thing fun.
"Shinner voters stop voting sinn fein when they die up north."
Reggie:
Robert McCartney proved that alright.
A great point.
'Turnout was high, yes'
Chris:
If turnout really was high then how is it that PSF got over 50,000 votes less than in the 2004 Euro elections?
Now before you start in with the 'different system' nonsense and 'different turnout level' theory, surely there is a higher turnout in general elections.
So where did those 50,000 votes go?
If overall turnout was higher in 2007, why didn't PSF's 197,700 from 2004 go up?
"Nonsense."
No, facto. Compare EU, Councils and Westminster elections in the UK if you like.
"You got 197,700 votes in 2004, 142,500 in 2007."
I got squat. I'm not an SF member, merely a common or garden Republican.
"Turnout levels and different systems be damned.
Those were bums on seats, and over 50,000 have disappeared. Why did 50,000 people abandon you?"
Different election, different system, different result. The reasons have already been discussed here. Personally, I reckon it was policy what done it. Much less important in Euro elections, by the by.
Chris,
It's a SF worker and supporter who is saying those nasty things about you on DCR.
Chris and JG:
That 'fucking idiot' comment wasn't Ellie's statement. It was from a Provo supporter on our home board - Debate Central Revisited.
Our Provo pal Eoin is quite clear on his opinion of Chris. He doesn't think your analysis stands up.
Of course you folks would rather shoot the messenger - Ellie - than address the point.
"He doesn't think your analysis stands up."
Neither does Michael Shilliday on Slugger, harpo.
Listen Harpo/ellie
Firstly I couldn't give two fiddlers fuck what anyone says about me, very think skinned you see.
That person claims to be a member/voter/supporter yet there is no evidence of such.
Now, when ever any of you develop a pair of balls big enough to attack me under your own name then I will countance continuing this quite pointless and tiresome exchange.
Until then my opinion stays, go play with the traffic
"go and wave at some planes, Ellie. I'm told people of your IQ find that type of thing fun."
What's the problem, Julius? It's OK having a cost wee love fest until someone of a different opinion pitches up?
Then, rather than address a different POV you resort to the primary school taunts? Excellent.
Neither does Michael Shilliday on Slugger, harpo
LOL, he's a young unionist (UUP)
I don't think I will be taking advise on elections from the likes of him.
"he's a young unionist "
So your best analysis is that his views (which seemed fairly well backed up by previous waffly SF manifestos) are risible simply because he's a unionist?
if you call chris a CUNT on DSC, what do you expect but to be treated as a troll. charming of you, something to tell Mr.Bull tonite eh
"when ever any of you develop a pair of balls big enough to attack me under your own name then I will countance continuing this quite pointless and tiresome exchange."
I am reminded of Margaret Thatcher's use of old Lincolnshire dialect in the House of Commons once, when she accused someone of being "frit".
Ellie
Nothing to do with him being a Unionist, a lot to do with him being a UUP member.
The day a political party starts taing advice from UUP members in relation to elections is the day that party should shut up shop!
"if you call chris a CUNT on DSC, what do you expect but to be treated as a troll."
Try reading all the posts before attributing certain words to me. It's a SF member and worker who is saying certain things, and the word you used was never mentioned on DC.
Then, rather than address a different POV you resort to the primary school taunts? Excellent
Sorry, Ellie, but the POV I read was "Gaskin is a fucking idiot" so I thought the gloves were off! If you didn't say that then fair enough.
"The day a political party starts taing advice from UUP members in relation to elections is the day that party should shut up shop!"
Fair point. But that doesn't diminish the validity of his point about your manifesto analysis.
Julius,
I think any point can be made without ever needing to resort to old Anglo-Saxon words, don't you?
Ellie
My manifesto analysis is shared by other Sinn Féin members and by political opponents in the 26 counties.
That trumps 2/3 trolls and an UU
ellie, page 1 the word is mentioned
he wins the award of CUNT, replied to by you :
Toddle off over there and spam his blog, there's a good chap
6:29 eleanorbull
"Toddle off over there and spam his blog, there's a good chap"
So I didn't use the word, then. Thanks for confirming that.
"My manifesto analysis is shared by other Sinn Féin members and by political opponents in the 26 counties."
Well, let's get this back on track rather than get bogged down in pointless name-calling at one another.
Why wasn't the manifesto analysed prior to the election?
The people of the south simply aren't interested in this sixth-form revolutionary cant. Ireland has no plans, apparently, to ever be socialist, and sixty year old revolutionaries like Gerry (and his 'industrial wage' drivel) really don't cut the mustard. And the fact is that the new breed, like Mary Lou, are simply parroting this old tosh like she's Belfast's glove puppet.
About the only way SF can achieve a breakthrough in the Dail is by ditching their "principles". An all Ireland version of the PDs in a power-grab, in other words.
Come on, even RSF have more credibility as Irish Republicans now.
There are some strange, strange people out there!
This is true, MR.
Good analysis, but why did SF lose? Simple. Anti-capitalist socialism in Europe died years ago.
I stood up for him on ATW!*
I mean, he's already said he'll be eating humble pie - and at least he's not gone into hiding - fair play to him.
*Look D4 - Chris is still only a young lad, wet behind the ears - cut him some slack - When he grows up he'll do a Mary Lou and change parties - difficult choice for him though - SDLP or Alliance ?
http://
atangledweb.squarespace.c...l#comment839030
Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 01:20PM
that some loser ( harpo) would spend sunday afternoon engaging on a thread called
Provo Chris Gaskin's whataboutery is about as sad as it gets in Irish politics.
hilarious really !
As long as shiiners have people of your calibre Chris, they'll live to fight another day.
SF have quality, decent, straight, young and selfless candidates and they're day will come.
The people interviewed the candidates and did not reject SF. They just thought ye were a bit young, a bit inexperienced and wondered how ye'd cope under pressure.
If ye could recruit one or two entrepreneurs to the cause, it would help. Not easy, I know.
But the trendy lefty stuff is so dated.
Young voters down here are not interested in the equality agenda; they study manifestos for tax breaks.
"about as sad as it gets"
Of course, responding to it is a much more worthwhile use of time, isn't it Mona?
paid, that's a tough nut to crack for SF; as my husband len says "abandoned again"..this time over money, be jaysus
If ye could recruit one or two entrepreneurs to the cause, it would help.
people like Brian Arthurs you mean ?
ellie,
well I'll give you something for your barrel scraping, you've made me laugh.
Madradin,
almost, but what would BA do for a living in a united ireland?
The border is good for him.
him and his ilk are sell-outs. scum.
"you've made me laugh."
Well, that's good Mona. The more time we're laughing with each other the less time we're hurting one another.
I'm hoping Chris gives me my own column: "Notes from a Jaffa Hun"
Ellie
I'm hoping Chris gives me my own column: "Notes from a Jaffa Hun"
I have already said before on this site that I would have no problem offering a platform for an intelligent Unionist to outline their position.
Note I said intelligent Unionist, thus ruling you out!
"Note I said intelligent Unionist, thus ruling you out!"
Touche!
Got any email yet?
Mona - how about international security consultants ?
Big money to be made in America
How about a fairly intelligent unionist Chris ? I'm sure it would be very popular in Brighton and over the pond LOL
Got any email yet?
No, should I have?
MR
Stop smoking the funny stuff!
"should I have?"
To a university address, yes.
Nuh Uh Chris - that's not my scene !
Well, I haven't recieved any e-mail. The QUB server could be fucked up though.
"I haven't recieved any e-mail."
Shame. I was entirely civilised in it.
I'll get it eventually, I waiting on a few e-mails.
There's no trolling or flaming, I assure you.
Back to business, though: set aside the election (and everything else) for one moment.
If the aim of SF is to unite prptestant, catholic and dissenter -to take it all the way back to the United Irishmen- what do you think can be done to get protestants (and dissenting dissidents for that matter) "on message".
It strikes me that the prods got lost along the way, despite being prime motivators on several occasions for Irish unity. Do you think that there's any way that SF (or FF or FG for that matter) can appeal to prods, or are the wounds of war still too raw?
Sorry for pitching that at you. But I'd like to hear what SF supporters/voters views are.
Nuh Uh Chris - that's not my scene !
You like baccy from around the world though. Never tempted to sprinkle a little something else in there? 
Just been looking at your blogger profile, Chris.
Gonna wind you up again
Christy Moore??? Ah, come on! He's a pub singer!!!!
Why not some Chieftains, Altan, Dervish (notwithstanding the drivel they got to sing at Eurovision).
Oasis??? Lumpen. Mid-paced. Why not explore the Fab source.
James Blunt????? A British Army tank commander????
Christy Moore??? Ah, come on! He's a pub singer!!!!
A pub singer????????
Bollocks! I like to see how many pub singers have sold as many albums as he has or has the fan base that he has in Ireland, England and America.
Christy is a legend!
Why not some Chieftains, Altan, Dervish (notwithstanding the drivel they got to sing at Eurovision).
Not my cup of tea
As for Oasis, what can I say, I was a teenager in the 90's and they have some great songs.
James Blunt????? A British Army tank commander????
And what? I like some of his songs, no need to bring politics into every aspect of life.
Julius - you and Chris must be confusing me with somebody else!
Ellie - he's really a Wolfe Tones fan - has all their CDs
ellie,
offering friendship, showing prods they've nothing to fear from Rome or War, and that we consider them family will all help to thaw relations.
you've asked a good question.
he's really a Wolfe Tones fan
Low, low dig!
I am a fan of Republican music, I am not a fan of blue-shirts who masquerade as Republicans like the Wolfe Tones!!!
"you've asked a good question."
But how can I share a country with someone who likes Oasis?????
Gasket,
One of your better posts, you do seem to have the ability and the will to actually learn .
Now the Ra is defeated and Sinn Fein are administering British rule, why dont you suggest to the SF leadership otherwise known as (HMG) joining forces with the stoops to really make the most of Westminster allowances and direct payments. LOL
What a week. LOL
Ding Ding
Marty
"I am a fan of Republican music"
Gotta say I like Moving Hearts, but it's Sinnott and Lunny who drag it up to quality level.
See?
Not the stereotypical prod.
I used to listen to a LOT of Radio na Gaeltachta when I was in Belfast. In understood whar Se and Agus meant, but I understood all the tunes.
"how many pub singers have sold as many albums as he has "
Matt Monro. Bus conductor and Sinatra copyist.
First ten Chieftains albums...genius.
I have a fond regard for the first couple of gaelic-sung Clannad albums, too, before they went glitzy.
Ingram
Crawl back under your rock!
Your spook reckoning will come, I only pray it's a cement truck!
"In understood whar Se and Agus meant, but I understood all the tunes."
Wine has been consumed.
I understood what Se and Agus meant...just in case anyone's wondering.
Night night all. Enjoy what's left of the weekend. It'll all look better in the morning. Even for Michael McDowell...
ellie,
you've a GSOH ... cool
It strikes me that the prods got lost along the way, despite being prime motivators on several occasions for Irish unity
I don't know the answer to that, can any posters here attempt it?
Maybe madradin, I understand he's read some books.
Gasket,
You lot decommissioned mate, no cement trucks left!
We got to keep ours though! LOL
Sleep tight and contented cos I will.
Night Night mate.
Ding Ding
Always cement trucks Ingram, consider it karma!
Gasket,
I was playing with and beating cement trucks when you were still in nappies lad.
Ding Ding
Marty the prophet
Marty
You really are full of shit! a self-praising spook merchant!
Mona - the sundering came because of the change from secular nationalism to RC Nationalism. Education became a battleground.
GSOH?
madradin,
Good sense of humour ( GSOH )
that's interesting that it was the rise in RC nationalism that caused the problem, stemmed the tide.
What a shame.
Own goal.
Is that conclusion generally accepted?
Afraid so Mona.It was bound to happen though because of the events of the 19th century. Have a read at the works of D.P.Moran to see it at it's worst.
Hmm, interesting stuff, so Sinn Fein have the same problems tackling the lack of women in politics as do all the other parties.
I personally happen to have nothing but scorn for Ms McDonald but setting that side, the issue of getting more women into politics is very tricky. I entirely agree with the women in SF who find gender quota's patronising and you are right, it is discrimination and I personally do not see how discrimination can ever been "positive" but we need to devise some method of getting more women elected across the divide.
The Margaret Thatcher approach (now lay personal feelings aside on her as I have on Mary-Lou) is a good prototype. She was determined and ambitious but she was helped when she needed it, although helped not violently thrust into politics. Only problem is that she tended to kick down the ladders after coming up them. Examples of strong women achieving big things like Margaret Thatcher, like Constance Markievic are good to show what can be done but this is an area that need much thought and will not be fixed overnight.
just browsed wipipedia for D.P.Moran
1905 who argues to be irish required:
membership of the Roman Catholic Church
that would get up my nose if I were an ulster unionist.
But didn't the 1916 proclamation put pay to that sectarian bigotry?
But didn't the 1916 proclamation put pay to that sectarian bigotry?
Not really - the RM by that time was overwhelmingly RC and as usual even if the sentiments sounded non-sectarian, on the gound things were very different. Easter 1916 was an RC uprising.
The Proclamation no more means there could be no sectarianism than does the relevent section in the Orange Order's Oath.
indeed, the lack of prods in the RM is a worry, then in 1916 and now.
You could say every irish brotherhood movement needs a good prod ( pun intended )
wimmin,
I could never get into politics as I've a face like a pig's arse, luckily my husband len is partially sighted; however more women will enter politics as the peace takes root; am confident of that.
we've a big part to play as listeners and healers post-conflict, helping the youngsters with self-esteem issues for example.
it's Sinnott and Lunny who drag it up to quality level
Never a truer word spoken, Ellie!
its settled then madradin must join the republican brotherhood.
There's no place left to run to
That being said the manifesto was the biggest pile of watery, airy fairy, head in the fucking clouds, not a notion of what is going on, bullshit that I have ever had the misfortune of reading!!
An strong statement for a SF party member to make.
It would have been more interesting to see you make it before the election.
In fact I can't find any blog directly addressing the whole manifesto.
The only one I can find is your "Sinn Fein: Health" blog where you said "There really isn't much for me to add, our policies speak for themselves."
Then earlier in these comments you say this about the health section in your "05.26.07 - 9:55 pm" comment
This is the biggest pile of shite that I have ever heard, no figures, no costings, no detail, no action plan etc
This is the problem I was talking about and relates to our entire manefisto!!
Your strong criticism now would carry a little more weight if you had managed to be at least a little bit critical before hand.
its settled then madradin must join the republican brotherhood.
I think they have enough problems at the moment LOL
With apologies for cutting and pasting from slugger
#
I have to say reading the posts on Sinn Fein’s poor performance makes it clear that most people haven’t realised what a calamitous defeat the Republican Movement suffered on Thursday. It is unquestionably the biggest defeat suffered by the Republican Movement in forty years. Forget Operation Motorman, Roy Mason, or Loughgall, the Republican Movement have just received the most crushing, perhaps fatal, blow they have ever received since the Civil War and it was from the 26 County electorate (again).
Many write as if Sinn Fein is just another political party. They suggest leadership changes, a new front bench, a better manifesto, new look policies, they’ll be coming up with focus groups next. To do so is to fundamentally misunderstand what Sinn Fein is; it is not just one more political party but is in fact merely a front in an ongoing (up to last Thursday) and, to a certain extent armed, revolutionary movement.
Now we old timers in the North are fully aware of this fact, we’ve lived among members of this movement and we’ve seen the often horrific consequences of the movement’s actions. However the younger, more southern inclined posters seem to have been taken in by the propaganda of the past decade and a half and genuinely believe that Sinn Fein is merely a radical new left of centre political party who suffered a bit of a lapse last week but don’t worry sure we’ll just try harder for the next election eh?
Such a hope is forlorn, don’t kid yourself that all Sinn Fein wanted was to get a few junior ministries to alleviate the hardships of their constituents. Danny Morrison stated the object from the outset and despite all the guff and spin, real Republicans will tell you the object never changed merely the tactics, as Danny put it at the ‘81 Ard Fheis; “Will anyone here object, if with a ballot paper in this hand and an Armalite in the other we take [note the “take"] power in Ireland?”, there were no objections.
Ah yes Harry you old dinosaur, get into the modern age, that is ancient history, it’s all in the past, we’re a new young dynamic people now. Indeed we are, and Sinn Fein has just discovered this fact but never be fooled about what Sinn Fein’s real intentions were, right up to last week.
They’ve been soundly defeated, that election was supposed to have been the “Our Day” that they’ve been Tiocfaidhing about all this past quarter century, they were to see their crowning victory after successfully getting into power in the North, now it has all crumbled to ash before their eyes.
So what’s their future? Well obvious, the boys of the old Northern brigade hang up their broad black brimmers, the Gerrys and the Martins of the North quietly slink into retirement to fish trout in Donegal. The new bright young things in the South will take over and rebrand “New” Sinn Fein, the shiny happy Social Democratic party which after a few years will merge into Fianna Fail or Labour
[cont'd]
And the rest of us old fossils? We’ll think of our youth, when we had a lot more hair and a lot less waistline, when we should have been having fun and instead grew up in a psychopathic blood drenched madhouse. We’ll smile at our kids with their iPods and nice new Peugeot cars and pause for a while. We will take down our well thumbed volume of “Lost Lives” open a page at random from the 1970’s or ‘80s and as a quiet tear drops on to the silent list of names we’ll ask ourselves;
“What in Christ’s loving name was it all about?”
Rhetoric won't get the job done down here.
100% agree!
Chris Gaskin | Homepage | 05.26.07 - 9:59 pm | #
I think this is a very interesting comment by Chris Gaskin. It seems to me as though this is a tacit acceptance that Sinn Fein has won elections in Northern Ireland on the basis of hollow rhetorical answers to pressing questions. What does that say about the Nationalist electorate in Northern Ireland? Does Sinn Fein take them for granted. I am not trying to be mischievous in asking this question.
I had expected Sinn Fein to get eight seats. All they held plus Mary Lou, Pearse Doherty and Dessie Ellis, in the end they came nowhere near it. It's clear that the Euros were a false dawn.
All power to the Fianna Failers - such an electoral machine I have never seen - health service banjaxed, conjestion charging, scandals about the Prime Ministers personal finances and still they only shed 1% of their support.
That being said, I think that the most creditable performance of the election was Enda Kenny - he has put Fine Gael back on the map.
Oh and one other point - I was delighted Seymour Crawford did so well - a really nice man who works hard for his constituents.
Ditto for Pat Carey.
silence for months, SF gets a hammering and Chris's nemesis from his QUB days turns up - funny that
Yes! And amid all the bluster people are forgetting to mention that DONEGAL BEAT ARMAGH IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP YESTERDAY! LOL.
Prime Ministers
Just one point, it's Taoiseach not PM.
JG and MR, just remember one thingd.
The weapons are gone but I still have "Sinead", be warned!
Who's Sinead?
The baseball bat
Ohhhh, LOL.
Chris, good to see that you have identified the same issues as many of the rest of us. All across the south there is internal discussions on this defeat - many coming up with the same issues.
I thought the article on the Green Ribbon was very spot-on.
We need serious change. SF has been all too long run as an amateur show. Amateurish party development, amateurish strategy, amateurish policy development.
Some of our senior people love to talk as if they are all over strategy but its all waffle - just like our policies.
I just hope that the northern leadership learn their lesson and stop messing with southern election efforts. Losing the boys in Eirigi was a huge set-back for us. Gerry Adams is an electoral liability south of the border.
The most important thing is that we allow people the political space to make criticisms and if necessary to remove people like Pat Doc (who I've long believed is incompetant).
Actually MR I call in here quite regularly to see what's going on. I'm pleased you think I was Mr. Gaskin's nemesis - I would have thought that epithet would have fallen to others.
I would appreciate an answer to my question though. Is Chris suggesting that rehtoric cuts it at election time up here but not in the Iirhs Republic, and if so what does that say (a) about the nationalist political class here and (b) about his view of the nationalist electorate?
I wrote Prime Minister for fear of mis-spelling Taoiseach!
MR
I never had a nemesis, the opposition was pitifull!
Christopher
Is Chris suggesting that rehtoric cuts it at election time up here but not in the Iirhs Republic
No
Is Chris suggesting that rehtoric cuts it at election time up here but not in the Iirhs Republic, and if so what does that say (a) about the nationalist political class here and (b) about his view of the nationalist electorate?
You could argue, as Stephen King and Ruth Dudley Edwards seemed to, that Sinn Fein's performance was an indictment of Northern politics generally.
None of the other parties have been shown up because none of the other parties have attempted to run outside the North.
With apologies to Homer
Quid quid id est, timeo Lawyers et Sinead ferentis !!
"I think this is a very interesting comment by Chris Gaskin. It seems to me as though this is a tacit acceptance that Sinn Fein has won elections in Northern Ireland on the basis of hollow rhetorical answers to pressing questions. What does that say about the Nationalist electorate in Northern Ireland? Does Sinn Fein take them for granted. I am not trying to be mischievous in asking this question."
Chris Salford
You ignore the obvious Chris the elections in the north are instutionalised sectarian headcounts. Hallow rhetoric is all that is needed.
Chris
"the opposition was pitifull!!"
I know the place went to pot once I left!
The Elections in the North are Orange & Green
In the South the average Joe on the street doesn't give a f**k for the occupied six counties.
Adams and the Provo Plc mob can not expect to go into the South spouting the same bollocks they use in West Belfast.
The Southern Irish Electorate care more about economic development & interest rate than anything else.
Bertie Ahern has steered the 26 counties through phanominal economic growth and that in the south is all the average joe cares for.
The 6 counties are to people in the south a liabilty they can well do without and the twisted idiots in SF must be blind if they can not see this.
MR
Are you sure you didn't mean
"Quid quid id est, timeo leguleius et fustis ferentis !!"
I always liked
illegitimi non carborundum!
Very true Christopher
It was the bland leading the bland LOL
Chris - latin was frowned upon on my side of the fence
Chris
Tut tut! I don't think that's necessarily true, I just think I was the Grand Master of the Order of the Wodden Spoon i.e. adept at stirring it!
Sure it was all great craic!
I think it was Henry Kissinger who said "the reason why student politics is taken so seriously is because there's absolutely nothing at stake" and you know what? He was absolutely spot on.
Chris,
You got mail.
MR
I'm not suprised, it's the language of light afterall
Chris
I think we both enjoyed stirring it LOL
Jesus, your people really do not like me HA HA!!
I think it was Henry Kissinger who said "the reason why student politics is taken so seriously is because there's absolutely nothing at stake" and you know what? He was absolutely spot on.
Agreed
They though Belfast City Council was the bearpit, they should have been to some of the SRC meetings I attended.
I'll never forget a mature student Socialist from West Belfast telling Andrew Connor that he would bust his jaw if he came near the microphone again.
Earned Seán the nickname of "bone crusher", ohhhh, good times
Sinn Fein are the richest political party in Ireland and the election in the south running 42 candidates in 41 constituancies not to mention a full time electoral staff numbering hundreds. This election has been costly in terms of votes and notes.
I have a well meaning sandal wearing friend who was once a armed revolutionary but is now a lecturer and active green party member. He was telling me that the Greens will insist on the radical reform of political donations and the opening of accounts for political parties. FF may miss their brown envelopes but the greens are going to sell this to them as a way to help neutor Sinn Fein for future elections.
Reggie
1. Sinn Féin are the only party in the 26 counties that actually publish their accounts
2. The Greens haven't got a hope in hell of being in government because Fianna Fáil's vested interests in farming and construction will not allow it.
Chris
The Greens proposal is to provide state funding to political parties based on electoral results. If this was enacted and contributions made illegal, Sinn Fein couldn't use its money to fight elections and would recieve an allocation for the votes cast or dseats won.
reggie
Those proposals are absolute nonsense, they haven't got a chance in hell of seeing life outside a Green party filling cabinet.
That is the reality!
"That being said the manifesto was the biggest pile of watery, airy fairy, head in the fucking clouds, not a notion of what is going on, bullshit that I have ever had the misfortune of reading!!"
It's a shame it's taken an election for you in order to qualify your change in stance over Sinn Fein's manifesto.
From viewing your other posts it would seem that before the election took place the only conceivable way was up.
Do you not think that absolute demands for a republican/ethnic nationalistic state is in some way counter productive to a modern and outward looking Irish state and is in itself a form of shallowness based on cultural stereotypes designed to attract such minded people.
It may work in Northern Ireland but Ireland has opted for other ideas.
Isn't the truth of the election result that SF are utterly irrelevant to the people of the south? I'm absolutely delighted that the Irish people have spoken in this way. SF is like a radioactive element: unstable, dangerous, only respected for its toxicity. Enjoy your half-life: it's all downhill from here!
James
"It's a shame it's taken an election for you in order to qualify your change in stance over Sinn Fein's manifesto.
From viewing your other posts it would seem that before the election took place the only conceivable way was up."
Oh for the love of God come on. How many party members would voice a negative opinion on their own manifesto in the middle of an election campaign. Really?
Oh for the love of God come on. How many party members would voice a negative opinion on their own manifesto in the middle of an election campaign. Really?
Oh simpleton Kensei the point here is that so much success was expected so much so that assumptions made prior to the election would leave many to believe that the manifesto was deemed as capable of delivering such results. Otherwise a more modest approach would have been observed but it wasn't. Surely it wasn't all about relying on Adams's personality and Northern Culthood?
provos cant call themselfs republicans British ministers paid by Westminister,some republicans
exactly.
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