OMG! Too long didn't read. LOL!
What an excellent post. Thanks for taking the time to explain, so eloquently, why an Irish republican wouldn't wear a poppy. You're spot on with your reasons!
It wasn't Tom McGurk.
While I understand why you may feel uncomfortable with the poppy, let me explain why I do wear it:
The poppy appeal funds the welfare of veterans of the British armed forces. Now of course most of what the British Army gets up to is by no means commendable (WW2 being the only justfied war which comes to mind). However these wars have long been exercises in the British establishment throwing away the lives of of working class lads for the sake of privilage and property. WW1 in particular stands out as an exercise in the industrial slaughter of countless British, German, Irish, French, Belgian, Russian, Austrian, Turkish and many other men in a most pointless tribute to naked imperial ambition.
These men were the victims of that war, and they deserve to be recognised as such and deserve the funds raised towards their care long after the crown has abandonded them.
The same is true for the victims of later wars, they're victims of the British imperial propaganda machine.
1. What Hugh said.
2. Mick Hall has an excellent post on this.
My point exactly regarding the Soviets Chris. The original piece supporting wearing a poppy was incredibly weak, whilst reading it I expected to get some of my views challenged.
How comes ye ignored us all for as long?
Tony
A mixture of busy at work and a serious row with my service provider for a fuck up that left me with out internet for 3 weeks
The Russians allowed Hitler's Germany to grow strong by means of the Soviet - Nazi Pact.
Stalin got along famously with Hitler, until Hitler stabbed him in the back.
Churchill never trucked with Hitlerism - your Russia did.
If it were not for this agreement, the war in the east and west of Europe would never have been as desperate as it ultimately came to be.
Russia was Naziism's friend and trade partner, until the Nazis decided that the affair was over.
Plus the British Army didn't engage in mass rape in the conquered territories, while your Red Army did just that.
( time for a Dresden comment. Hoo hah! )
I am sure that there are excellent European history books in the library there. Please do check them out!
Lets go Yankees.
Your row with yr internet provider over 3 weeks provided the world with a delay of a post that might have had some credibility in 1901.
Seriously, Chris, your rhetoric is something from the 1950s, at it its most modernistic. I can only put it down to your posting when completely arseholed drunk.
Hi, Phan, how r u? A serious blogger like yr good self, I would have assumed would no longer post on ATW.
But, if you care to lend the hate site your contributions...who am I to disagree? 
Good luck to Bay Ridge.
I see a blog on slugger from John McGuirk but can't find one from Tom McGuirk.
lol jo,
there's a career in comedy for you, "sarah silverman" style if ever ya give up the civil servant routine.
so much material:
unionist nay-saying anti-everything bigots; and/or bellowing and roaring republican neandertals.
dammit, at this rate you're gonna beat me to the belfast comedy clubs ...
To argue that a financial contribution to British veterans is fine on the basis that the British Army did something positive once (by contributing toward the defeat of an even worse imperial power), sandwiched between two campaigns of oppression in Ireland, is akin to asking the people of Israel to support the SS benevolent fund on the basis that that organisation suppressed the SA.
I probably won't buy a poppy.
phantom
What a joke you are. It seems that you have been reading a book or two yourself, which *holds hands up* is better late than never. However please do not use your newly found cherry-piicked(I should add) knowledge to come on here and lecture your betters.
To bastardise one of Observers quotes. Instead of attending an intellectual sword fight unarmed as is your wont. You seem to have shown up with a pen-knife.
Still we shouldn't slag progress!
Small point of interest to you regarding trust during the war. Sure Hitler could possibly be said to be the only man that Stalin ever trusted, ever. However poor old Winnie Churchill got forced out of licking Stalin's arse the longer the war went on...............Seems Roosevelt had a much longer spoon. And before we get dragged down educating you to the nuances of the great patriotic war, 'your Russia' you say of us, the only reason the Soviet Union was brought in was to rebut the author's original point that we should buy poppies because of Belsen and fighting the Nazi's.
Should another bone of contention be that the Soviets conspired with the Nazi's over Poland, trade whatever. Then the UK's appeasement, shocking in it's scale is evident in the mid 30's onwards. And your countries trade ties with the Nazi's are nothing to be proud off. Oh and let's not speak of your legacy of eugenics and race laws that Hitler admired so and proceeded to copy.
Indeed, Britain and the US were little better than the Nazis themselves.
btw Phantom, I see you and Vancy boy hosted a little neo-con orgy recently, you must be happy you got to lick his arse in person, rather than over the net for once
Hi Jo
I like to be part of the good conversations that take place in a number of sites
Tony, " South Armagh " Whatchamacallit new pen name:
What is the source of your anal fixation? On second thought, don't answer that.
When the largest fight for human freedom in the history of the world took place in the thirties and forties, sniveling jackenapes like yourselves were on your barstools rooting for the Luftwaffe.
Don't try your clever arguments should you ever visit places like Poland, the Czech Republic, or the Baltic states.
Quislings. Look it up.
Chris,
I wouldn't wear a poppy either although I disagree with your reasoning. I have respect for the Irishmen who died in WW1 (no matter that they were horribly misguided by Redmond) and even greater respect for Irishmen who fought the Nazi scum.
To me, in Ireland, the poppy seems to be a political symbol of unionism and support for the British Army rather than solely a remembrance for the dead in both world wars. For that reason, I will never wear one.
"Indeed, Britain and the US were little better than the Nazis themselves."
SAR,
That's nonsense. The evil of the Nazi ideology and the havoc it inflicted have no parallel.
I'm sure the RBL will be all broken up about the fact you're not wearing a poppy. (LOL)
phantom
You really are a patronising turd who has put away his pen-knife and taken out a cardboard sword, and as my new mucker South Armagh says I hope you enjoyed swapping fluids with the ugly wannabe fascist himself.
What is this nonsense about 'anal fixation' I like a wee bit of bumplay just as much as any red blooded overtly heterosexual too scared to try it in case I like it macho man. How's your own?
I loved the example you used regarding the Baltic states and Poland. You do realise that it was Roosevelt who gave these territories over to Soviet tyranny, don't you?
You really are a clown! I bet you are shite at poker going by the pathetic attempts to bluff us with your obvious scant knowledge.
too scared to try it in case I like it
tony
So much anger in such a wee fella. Life hasn't treated you that well, has it?
Stop the blogging and obsessing about other bloggers.
Learn some history. Get a job.
Phantom
I am not a wee fella, nor angry since I went and catered for the 'anal fixation' that you said I had. I am quite relaxed now, despite the smelly fingers. Life is not too bad right now either, apart from my cat's litter is a bit smelly and my 2yr old's toilet training is a bit messy. But I can't honestly say it isn't going well, unless you mean smellwise...........that's for sure!
The rest of your advice is worth as much to me as the contents of aforementioned cat's litter.
Was the previous bullshit an effort to hide the fact that you are no good at arguing history? Or that you may just need a wee bit of knowledge rather than bluster and bullshit?
I reckon so chum!
Julias
Too late!
*sings to tune of I kissed a girl and I liked it*
"I dealt with my anal fixation and I liked it"
LOL
Well, as you say, there's nothing wrong with a bit of bumplay, whatever the combination of genders!
Off topic, but went to see Noam Chomsky speaking at UCD yesterday evening on the history of US foreign policy. Fantastic talk. At almost 81 years, the man is still razor sharp.
Too much information
Except on the history matter, where you don't have enough information!
I always enjoy the spats between Phantom and Tony. I think you fellas are secretly fond of each other. 
Hey!
Julias
I've got to admit Phantom is my favourite fascist arse kissin, Yank uber alles, sans dignity. It is my ambition to catch Tony Benn, i almost got a ticket to a talk he was giving at The Mitchell Library but just missed out. Imagine mentioning TB in the same para as the likes of the Phantom *smacks own hand*
Phantom
I was the last one on topic where I rebutted every point you made *takes bow* So it is a bit cheeky to come out with your last statement, but then again gadgies like you with selective blinkers lack dignity. So it is no surprise that you have the affrontery to mention the actual topic that left you needin an ice pack to sit on.
Tony
To show my magnanimous nature, I will fund the beginnings of your education by buying this history book for you.
Which homeless shelter should I post it to?
thanks Phantom, very magnanimous(it means nice, kinda) of you. Now I know why you seem to have trebled your I.Q. of late.
I have noticed over quite a few posts that you are inferring that I am poverty stricken, or having a hard life of sorts. Would I be a lesser person in your eyes if correct? Would the fact that you cannot live with me in a debate matter in this context either? Are you living such a high life that you can look down on the ordinary Joe's like me. Which no matter where I live or how much money I accumulate I will always be. A working class celtic supporting fella from the east end of Glesga.
Is faux snoberry the new thang in the cult of Vance this weather or something
Funny how I am censured for mentioning vance when so many men can mention him and not be. Oh well, another example of south Armagh chauvinism...given that I, at least am from the same county, one might think that some leeway might be given to someone like me who calls a fucking bigot a fucking bigot.
BTW, I see his mate Calvert couldnt get ANYONE - ANYONE- in Craigavon council (that well known upholder of civil rights for all citizens) to agree his co-option to the council as a TUV candidate.
Tony
Worry not about the grain of sand in David's eyes, worry about the cinderblock in your own.
Why do you obsess about him?
If I don't like a blog, I tend not to read it, or converse about it. Life is too short.
Go out and smell the roses. There's more to life than this obsession.
---
When someone greets me with hostility 100% of the time, I do tend to go back at them, hard. Try a little civility and you may get a response in kind.
Phan
I think the extreme and very violent views expressed on that blog are distinctly at odds with that mans BBC (mainstream media) presence.
He criticises that corporatrion for not represnting viewsd other than liberal ones. yet he is on NI TV each and every week. He gained less than 900 votes in elelctions here, thats how representative that man is of this part ofd the world. I dont agree with Chris Gaskin - for a man in his early 20s - I think he is anachronistic, but at least he doesn't cheer on mass murder of women and children. David Vance does.
He dare not say on TV what he says on his blog. His views amount to incitement to racial hatred and that, in a nutshell, is why he is to be shunned.
I disagree.
But I don't want to get into a big discussion on another site here. Chris does not like that, and I see his point.
There are many blogs in the internet sea - I'd read the ones that amuse or inform, , and ignore all the others.
It's just not important.
Phan
fair enough, I did not raise this issue. My email is available to discuss this, as you wish. Good wishes to you, in your contnuing interest in all things NI, given that you live in a fascinating city.
just looking at geography and weather, its clear many german deaths occured due to the cold, and lack of equipment in the east.
D-Day cost the allies tens of thousands to gain a foot-hold, and from thence to Europe.
so the idea of praising russians to the exclusion of the allies is ridiculous, a bit like ignoring or downplaying scientific advice on the dangers of smoking and alcohol, just to fit the policy.
But that doesn't get phantom off the hook vis-a-vis tongue-butting der fuhrer aka mr.nobody of no-votes.
I put that fawning down to ignorance;
and being conned, but only as much as that corruption exists in your own heart.
one day you'll wake-up phan and rent your garments.
cheers.
Should be rather self-evident why an Irish Republican shouldn't honestly be expected to celebrate the Crown forces, right???
"I'm sure the RBL will be all broken up about the fact you're not wearing a poppy. (LOL)"
What a silly remark.
Of course the British Legion don't seem to care as much about the wearing of the poppy as your arch-enemies in the BBC. You can barely see the screen for poppies everywhere.
Jo
Come visit!
Percy
Another one with the fixation. Maybe it will help you fit in with some of the terribly militant lads here. Maybe conforming on those comments will allow you the latitude to deviate from various party lines on the next thing.
phantom
How is the reading up on the Great patriotic war coming along? Any more curve balls/googlies for me to smash over the fence.
Don't rely on your fascist pals for good info. I remember a certain chap from Waco claimed that there was a Palestinian SS armoured division at Stalingrad. When challenged he tried to use evidence of the Grand muff eater of Jerusalems visit to Hitler.
One of the best laughs I ever had!
Ah. a legend in his own mind
Do they really get to call it a Great Patriotic Thingie when they themselves saluted Stalin, and conspired together to divide a Poland that had done them no wrong?
Do they lose points for freely trading with Nazi Germany - strengthening it for years before they were attacked?
These thoughts may not jibe with a Chomsky-baby talk view of the world, I am aware.
--when they themselves ( Stalin ) saluted Hitler--
'What a silly remark.'
Not at all. The Poppy Appeal is forecast to raise a record amount of money in 2009, beating the £40 million total raised last year.
Ergo, I'm sure the RBL don't give a toss about the refusal of the enemies of this United Kingdom (and it is still a United Kingdom) to wear an emblem to celebrate our armed forces.
The sporting of the emblem by such individuals would only taint it for the rest of us.
" Palestinian SS armoured division at Stalingrad"
I recall that. Insane. Funny how, in the views of such people, both Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany were "left wing"
As if no right wing regime ever was a bad thing or ever did wrong. Mind you, this blog provides an interesting archive of coincidental thinking across right wingers emcompassing Vance, Gaskin and conservative N Irish opinion.
A woman's right to choose? Not here, not on ATW, not to be seen on the supposed radical agenda of SF.
phanny,
its official Balrog policy to oppose tyranny.
the anal bit is just a logical corollory to what slaves do, or are forced to do.
But no-one is forcing you.. so
Be a free man , and use your tongue to speak up for freedom, and not to rim tyrants buttholes.
jo,
I'm not fond of chris's catholic social conservatism either, as it clashes with my liberal humanistic views.
Would love to see an Irish Liberal Party emerge , 32 county of course
mr.andrew,
there's nothing wrong with collecting money for good causes; and I'd be happy to wear one if you'd wear a black poppy to remember all the innocent lives slaughtered due to British Army massacres:
Amritsar, Boston, Croke Park and Bloody Sunday.
seems fair enough right?
'and I'd be happy to wear one'
As I said, don't taint it for the rest of us. Whatever mistakes the Army made in the past, Bloody Sunday was most certainly not one of them.
I imagine the RBL would be less than happy with that last comment, Mr Vance. I was under the impression the British army were government directed and the British government have already accepted that Bloody Sunday was a "mistake". Are you, perhaps, speaking for a dissident group at odds with government policy?
Or is it simply a matter of bigotry winning out over reason?
Your pain is evident and if it's outpouring were not so vexatious it would be truly pitiable.
Obviously that last comment was directed at Mr McCann. I have no idea were I got the name Vance from.
Must have been mentioned in a previous post, or something.
No, I am speaking from the fact that the Army were under attack from a violent, hate filled and illegally assembled, rabble, intent on rioting and, almost certainly, harbouring IRA terrorists wihin their midst.
It always puzzles me how Irish republicans simply expected the Army to stand there, take the violence and abuse, and not retaliate.
Still, gives us another insight into their totally unreal world.
The only 'mistake' our crown forces made was in not sending enough mick rabble on their jouney to beelzebub that day!
I'm glad that we have real men like Andrew McCann who can admit that the British army are a bunch of child killing murderous dogs rather than mouth platitudes like 'it was a mistake' bullshit!
Well done Andrew!
Phantom
You mix well by degree's of association and fellow travellers like the gentleman mentioned above. I know, i know(hauds hauns up) that you claim the 1690th amendment, which is that you retain the right to keep the blinkers on when it suits and be selective in your memory. No need to reply!
I would respond to your point re-Stalin(I think) but I'm not sure what your point was. Should you care to take your nose from your 'Stormfront' magazine (borrowed no doubt from one of your pals) and explain what you are getting at, i will be only too happy to educate you with a reply.
Obsever
Actually I thought you were right the first time.
Yeah but those Mick Rabble did'nt half slap it up your Crown Forces at Narrowater did they?
The red bereted psychopaths were paid back in spades that day.
"No, I am speaking from the fact that the Army were under attack from a violent, hate filled and illegally assembled, rabble, intent on rioting and, almost certainly, harbouring IRA terrorists wihin their midst"
If that was the case mr.andrew why can't the enquiries point to even one shot fired on the paras?
The evidence just doesn't exist.
We're back to Amritsar; ie the open firing upon crowds ---
to teach the natives a lesson!
You don't have the moral upper hand, and you never did
'I'm glad that we have real men like Andrew McCann who can admit that the British army are a bunch of child killing murderous dogs rather than mouth platitudes like 'it was a mistake' bullshit!'
And I'm equally glad we have children like Tony, who are incapable of admitting that the IRA were a bunch of sick, murdering, hypocritical shitehawks, and instead pretend they were some sort of professional and legitimate army, when in fact they were neither.
'If that was the case mr.andrew why can't the enquiries point to even one shot fired on the paras?'
This charade was set up to placate the 'most oppressed people ever' at a time when doing so was central to the British State's Northern Ireland policy. The problem you'll have is that Savile will not follow the line that the Fenians were virgin white whilst the soldiers were intent on a killing spree. Shots were fired from within the crowd. Attempting to argue that they were not aimed a Paras is like trying to split hairs on Gandhi's head.
Soldiers came under attack from a hate-filled, illegally assembled mob intent on violence. They retaliated. Unlike Amritsar, which was genuinely unprovoked and needless massacre and a stain on the Army, Bloody Sunday was a classic case of cause and effect.
Apart from "those dirty fenian children deserved it" Andrew, exactly what evidence do you have that shots were fired from the Catholic untermenschen?
'Andrew, exactly what evidence do you have that shots were fired from the Catholic untermenschen?'
Shots were fired from within the crowd that day. That's a matter of record. At least your description of the riotous scum that took part is becoming more accurate.
The effrontery of those filthy taigs marching for civil rights.
You'd think they'd know their place.
'You'd think they'd know their place.'
No, you'd think they'd know how to demonstrate without resorting to violence. But I guess maturity is something most of the uppity bastards don't have a clue about, any more than they do morality.
"No, you'd think they'd know how to demonstrate without resorting to violence"
Just like the whiter than white Orange Order at many Drumcrees and Springfield Rd '05 did
'Just like the whiter than white Orange Order at many Drumcrees and Springfield Rd '05 did'.
Having attended several Drumcree protests down the years, I never recall anyone firing on the Army defences. Maybe, just maybe that's why the Army didn't feel the need to retaliate.
As for the Springfield Road riots, the police actually fired back when attacked by loyalist terrorists. You see, the forces of the State are capable of firing on Prods too. It's just that the Prods won't still be whinging about it 37 years later.
"I never recall anyone firing on the Army defences"
You obviously missed this one then:
"Petrol and blast bombs were hurled at police and army lines and at one point masked men opened fire on them with live rounds"
http://books.google.es/books?id=...page&q=&
f=false
"As for the Springfield Road riots, the police actually fired back when attacked by loyalist terrorists"
Really? Don't see them returning fire here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q...lt6RGYvg_o&
NR=1
Did they also fire on the Orangemen who attacked them with swords, sticks, stones and bottles or were the Orangemen not a sufficiently
"Violent, hate filled and illegally assembled, rabble, intent on rioting"?
what's the wriggle-out on throwing bags of piss at schoolgirls, and burning 3 kids to death if you don't get your way on marches?
what's the wriggle-out on throwing bags of piss at schoolgirls, and burning 3 kids to death if you don't get your way on marches?
A hefty dose of whataboutery I'd imagine.
Well, it seems like the PSNI did return fire after all, according to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_...nQXStfkwgY&
NR=1
However in contrast to Bloody Sunday, where there is no physical evidence of any shots being fired from the crowd and fourteen people were murdered, in just ONE of the many incidents at the OO inspired violence a PSNI jeep was hit over 50 times and yet there were no loyalist causualities.
So what was it :Whiterock response unproportionate or BS response unproportionate, [and why did they not shoot the OO rioters]?
'what's the wriggle-out on throwing bags of piss at schoolgirls, and burning 3 kids to death if you don't get your way on marches?'
What's the wriggle room in parents forcing children to run a gauntlet of rioters in order to make a political point?
Who's worse, the parents or the rioters? 50/50 in my book.
'and at one point masked men opened fire on them with live rounds'.
Then returning fire would have been acceptable. As to why it appears they didn't, perhaps it's because they had thirty years to learn how to do crowd control in a politically correct fashion.
'where there is no physical evidence of any shots being fired from the crowd and fourteen people were murdered'.
Mmm, I suppose those witnesses from the Official IRA (OIRA1 and OIRA2) who told Savile that they fired on the Army from the roof of a Presbyterian church hade their bullets disappearing into the ether, eh?
Final word from me on this subject. The crowd rioted, they harboured IRA gunmen, they attacked the Army lines. Had they obeyed the law, kept away and not been part of such a fracas, they'd still be alive today (or most of them).
The rest, as far as I'm concerned, is just wasting my time.
Given Gaskin supports an organisation that activel assissted the Nazi regime and appeared happy to sell out the Jewish population of his country to do so one can understand his disomfort on this issue.
I always take heart when Republicans call Unionists and the British Nazis because, based on history, they're more likely to do a deal with them
I note that McCann's run away again.
S'pose that some things like blaming parents for loyalists throwing bags of piss at primary school children and accepting claims that the OIRA fired a few shots at the Paras AFTER they had began their murderous rampage as justification of massacre are just too difficult to argue.
"I always take heart when Republicans call Unionists and the British Nazis because, based on history, they're more likely to do a deal with them"
D'ya reckon Martin?
http://www.independent.co.uk/new...zis-
728501.html
Absolutely Paul. The guys in that link were British but not in charge of Briatin. Sean Russell, on the other hand, was the IRA's cheif of staff and feited in Berlin while his hosts were implimenting the final solution...
http://www.historyireland.com/vo...ures/?
id=113841
This bit is particularly instructive given Chris's anti-Israel stance...
"...over the next year. War News, the IRA’s main publication, became increasingly pro-Nazi in tone, even claiming active IRA involvement in the German bombing of British cities. But more chillingly it began to ape anti-Semitic arguments. Satisfaction was expressed that the ‘cleansing fire’ of the German armies was driving the Jews from Europe. British war minister Hore Belisha was described as a ‘wealthy Jew’ only interested in ‘profits’. War News condemned the arrival in Ireland of ‘so-called Jewish refugees’, along with unspecified numbers of ‘Albanian, Abyssinian, Mongolian [and] Tartars’. These new arrivals were not only supposedly putting Irish people out of work but also exploiting those that they employed. Belfast was said to be increasingly in the ‘hands of international Jewry’ because of this influx. ‘The Jews’, War News warned, were ‘like the English, when they are strong they bully and rule.’ In Dublin de Valera’s government was also dominated by ‘Jews and Freemasons’ who were becoming the ‘new owners of Ireland’. Fianna Fáil TD Robert Briscoe was singled out for attack. "
Well Martin,
‘The Jews’, War News warned, were ‘like the English, when they are strong they bully and rule.’
that part is at least true, look at their treatment of the Palistinians since the late 40's ??
Are you arguing that the Jewish people as a whole should be held responsible for the (perceived) actions of the Jewish state? Is it your view that the actions of the Nazis against the Jews, and the IRA's complicity in them, are justifiable because of the later actions of the Israeli State?
"Absolutely Paul. The guys in that link were British but not in charge of Briatin. Sean Russell, on the other hand, was the IRA's cheif of staff"
So, in summary: some British Establishment figures (including Conservative MPs) were Nazi sympathisers and some Irish republicans were Nazi sympathisers but Tories are ok while Irish republicans are bad?
One could similarly point to the Republican Congress and famous radical republicans such as Peadar O'Donnell and Charlie Donnelly who fought against fascism.
Reg, there are Nazi's, racists, facists, sadly, in every country of the world. There are British facists, Irish fascists, there are even skinheads, bizarrely, in Israel.
The Republican Congress and the individuals you mention are laudable. However, on an organisational level, the British Governement as between 1939 and 1945 at war with Nazi Germany while the IRA was allied to Nazi Germany.
Individual members of the British establishment were undoubtedly Nazi sympathisers but the country as a whole was, at that period, fighting Nazi Germany. Equally individual republicans may have disapproved of the Nazis but, at the same time, the IRA was allied to them. Supporters of the IRA have to answer to that.
Do supporters of the current German government have to answer for the actions of the German government during the Second World War?
The German govt during WW2 was completely different that the German govt of today. Different party, different ethos, different everything
Not a relevant question.
Should supporters of the current British government have to answer for the massacre of Poles returned to Stalin by the British government of the Second World War?
Should Americans have to answer for their government's nuclear destruction of civilian population centres?
Go for it Phantom.
Must've been another irrelevant question
"I have no problem wearing a symbol to remember all those who died in both World Wars but it will be a cold day in hell before I wear a symbol that remembers and honours British Crown forces."
Chris, one thing we know now is that Ireland and Britain were weeks away from invasion and capitulation in mid 1941 and would have become part of the Greater German Empire.
What symbol do you wear then to remember Ireland's dead, Protestant and Catholic, who helped prevent this in the wars?
Around Armistice Day each year how do you honour them?
a decent debate between the insults.
On the soviet thing, they certainly did the heavy lifting once operation barbarossa started, but if the molotov-ribbentrop pact hadnt happened, Hitler would have found it extremely difficult to invade the West.
Hitler was paranoid about exposing himself to soviet attack when his forces were extended to the west. The MR pact took away that fear.
bendersbetterbrother
1)Have you got your year wrong? Surely you mean 1940 and not 1941?
2)How do you know what the Nazi plans were for Ireland?
3)How do you know that britain(never mind Ireland) would be weeks away from capitulation
andy
Like I mentioned earlier Hitler was probably the only man Stalin trusted. The Germans had little to stop the French moving in during the early part of the phoney war(on paper anyhow)Sept39-May1940 since nearly all her forces were engaged in Poland and the Czech region. Similarly once the Soviets recieved word from her agent in Tokyo that Japans eys were looking east and south, she freed up the 40 odd divisions there to move west. Ultimately saving Moscow and crucially allowing her desperately needed breathing space.
Obs
Leave the Phantom alone, he doesn't do awkward questions. I quoted you over on slugger re-Mick finally coming oot the closet.
Seen that, Tony.
Myself and Julius had a conversation about that site a long time ago.
He probably doesn't remember (incontinence is a great distraction) but we kind of agreed that it is, essentially, a unionist site wearing a badly fitting cloak of objectivity. Most of the heavy debates are about the nefarious nature of Republicanism mixed with the odd mild rebuke for the more outrageous unionist escapades. The awesomely inappropriate commenting policy, which allows the most ludicrous allegations to be carried about Nationalists and Republicans, with the only support being "someone else said it first" is a real turn off.
For the life of me, I can't figure out why a couple of decent commenters continue to contribute to it.
Have a quick look at the number of comments attracted by posts which are not obvious opportunities to vent your spleen on Republicans. Compare this to those which are. You don't need a statistical package to note the significant difference.
Anyway, how's the yacht? (For Phantom's benefit).
Took me a while to work out what you were getting at lol! Do you have to provide evidence of creditworthiness as evidence of capacity to debate? If so we can testify that the Phantom is not only a long-term bankrupt morally but demonstrably bankrupt in the intellectual capacity to debate.
Well yachts are a bit passe doon at Richmond park boating loch anyhow, I'm more into the pocket battleship type models wi the big remote steering wheels. You know that 'east end royalty' like us don't really do yachts we are more into motorbikes with sidecars with commensurate amount of steel bars sticking up from it to allow the weans something to haud oan tae when we go out midgie raking(ie looking for gold in the refuse dumps)
Yep that site was always a great educator(well for me anyway) of late(year or more easily) this well earned tag has withered. I still visit at the moment, but did not for best part of a year. I have no problem with someone being a Unionist............well, well as long as they are honest about it. This clearly until now hasn't been the case. There is a decent Unionist site at Oneils Unionist lite, guy's a hypocrite but an honest one.
Regarding our other business, despite a few minor indiscretions there has been major improvement.
Observer
The US and UK freed Europe and Asia from a new barbarism in the forties, and were never friendly with Hitler, as the Communist USSR under Stalin was.
We signed no Book of Condolences when your buddy died either.
You and Tony will never dance your way around those facts.
Tony
Thanks for the reply. If you're interested in the period you (or indeed anyone else) could do worse than checking this book out:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hitlers-...4/
ref=pd_cp_b_1
(sorry am too neanderthal to do links)
Basically its about Admiral Canaris, head of German Military intelligence. He disliked the nazis/hitler but ultimately lacked the balls to do anything about it until too late.
Of interest though are the soviet-nazi links pre-operation barbarossa.
actually, there's a lot of stuff about how elements in germany wanted peace but were rebuffed from an early stage.
Adios
Glad to hear it, Tony.
Can't be bothered reacting to Phantom's evasion (took him two days to find a way not to address the question).
I should be drunk by now.
it doesn't do any good to talk about this.....
What remains is the dream which brings us all here.
One little place, tiny, fragile
but significant to us.
I'd give my life to end this strife.
It may normally take two weeks to respond to the predictable ranks on late comments made on a post made on November the second.
The author of this book is on the air now.
The US was preparing for one million casualties in the invasion of Japan, and the Japanese had ordered their military to fight to the last Japanese.
The finger wagging Tony and the Observer had their minds made up on all subjects, but any thinking people out there might find the above book to be of interest.
Tony
Yea, I don't mind debating with an intellectually honest opponent, but it's getting increasingly difficult to find one. Far too often people are only interested in pushing their own fixations without reference to context. I've had a couple of encounters like that on Slugger.
It used to be enjoyable on Balrog, with people like Willow, but I was new to blogging and it was all a bit of harmless fun. MR (Ivan) can prove a challenge when he's sober. Of course "challenge" is a relative term(no offence, Ivan).
Nowadays, it's just like a cockroach that is immune from insecticide. Respond to a point and the answer is likely to be unrelated, rude and semi literate. That's what pubs are for.
Except you get a drink now and again.
To think I gave up knitting for this!
Let me know if your coming over to this den of thieves, murderers and Hitler supporters. Oh, and look out for a cheap KH250 basket case (settle down, Phantom, it's an old motorbike), would you? Not many of them around over here, more likely to find them in our Scottish colony.
Obs
Bit harsh on the bold MR, I did'nt know he was a swallyer though or is that educated guesswork , but right enough regarding the teflon coating.
I am getting bored with Phantom as well as it happens, it is like dealing with an angry recalcitrant child who no matter how much nutritious food you put out to him still prefers to feast on the junk food that makes him ill.
Phantom
Creating a strawman argument that somehow Obs or I supported Stalin then preceeding to claim victory by stating that your guys(the US and British leaders) were less culpable in their dealings with Hitler is pathetic. Your lack of intellect is the issue here now, not that idiocy is anything to be ashamed of, but don't get involved in things that you clearly have no business getting involved in. Your idiocy is endearing now and then but the pathetic comebacks and the wasting of my time does get irritating.
Firstly, Roosevelt and Churchill signed a faustian pact with a genocidal mass murderer in Stalin. Only it was not British or American souls that they used, but Polish, Czeck, Slovakian, Lithuanian, Estonian, latvian, Ukranian, Byelorussian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian and lots more ethnic groups and nationalities. Trying to play this down is morally bankrupt!
The British fell over themselves to appease Hitler, giving up the national integrity of Austria and Czechslovakia in the process. The Americans were enthusiastic business partners of Germany, with business booming as the thirties went on. hitler was a big fan of the eugenics programmes and marriage laws that many of your US states had.
There was no need to drop atomic weapons. The Japanese were trying to surrender through the Soviets and their crushing defeat by them in Manchuria only pushed the peaceniks cause further. The USAAF had demolished tokyo and upto a dozen other cities more effectively than any the subsequent atomic strikes. Using firebombs that killed hundreds of thousands, mainly wimmen, weans and the old. The atomis weapons were simply 'tested' for effect. no other purpose!
I don't do dancin, I prefer to charge straight through, as always.
Andy
I know I am a terrible technophobe myself.
I use this site though;
http://tinyurl.com/
cont.
Balrog doesn't allow my computer to write more after I have cut'n'pasted. Anyhow Andy just paste in your long addresses and it shortens them.
Your imput into debates are welcome. Having a go is not the norm but people like the Phantom with his US uber alles nonsense always get's me right in the craw.
Churchill never was friendly with Hitler. Stalin, who controlled the Red Army, was friendly to Hitler for a long time.
The Red Army that enforced a rule nearly as bad as Hitler's.
The comments on the Red Army, which " won the war " will be seen in that context.
The Red Army was a force of oppression from 1917 to the day the wall fell.
Even this most ignorant corner of the blogosphere should realize that.
Expand your horizons, visit Poland or the Baltics, see how far your praise of the Red Army will get you there.
Oh, and weasels
Chris asked for his site not to be used as a Whining Wall about ATW. You are not respecting his wishes.
Some of you boys couldn't keep up there and intentionally got yourselves thrown off, like an athlete who comes up with a make believe illness to avoid going into the final match.
Promise to be civil and I bet you could get back in, but you won't have the same three against one that you have here!
Tony
I suspect Ivan drinks nothing stronger than buttermilk, but I could be wrong.
The arguments are a bit playgroundish these days.
"I dont want to wear a poppy."
"Then you must be a murdering, Fascist, Stalinist, Pol Pot loving, baby eating, Old Shep hating benefit fraudster."
"No, I just don't want to reward the British army for killing many innocent people in my country and others."
"LIAR! You dress up in an SS uniform and go around killing Jewish babies. You loved Hitler and his mate Stalin."
"Actually, The Nazi regime in Germany was appeased by all sides, at the expense of the Czechs, Austrians and Poles. The Stalinist regime was appeased by the Nazis at the start and by the Allies after 1941. All sides changed allegiance at various times, in keeping with their national interest. However, despite their shortcomings, the Allied victory was a good thing, although some of their methods were questionable."
"I'll take your points in order;
You are Hitlers love child.
Your Mama wears army boots.
Krakatoa is west of Java, not east.
Answer that, you swine!"
Gets a bit wearing after a while.
Chris should introduce a simple IQ test as a filter. Say, anything over 55 is acceptable. At least some of the more articulate contributers would still be able to post.
We'd miss Chris, though
Another gripe about Slugger.
There is a post by Brian Walker on school league tables, in which he posts a link to Lumen Christi College, Londonderry. The link takes you to their website, which gives their address as Lumen Christi College, Bishop Street, Derry.
I asked the obvious question - who decided to change their address to Londonderry?
Mick's response was that Slugger doesn't do standard nomenclature!
Enlightening (apologies to the Latin scholars)?
Observer,
That's just Londonbizarre.
Thank God, Reg. I thought I was alone on Balrog.
Wonder if Chris took up the suggestion of an IQ filter?
Must have, hence my inability to post here.
Obs
I had a serious lol moment when I read your 11.16.09 @7.56 not because of what you said about MR's responses, but I had just read the Phantom's lazy simplistic strawmen from above and was trying to raise the strength to bother to respond. Lo and behold this post aimed at another beautifully captures the level of his responses.
Surely this response must have been tainted by reading the phantom's schoolboy tongue sticking out exercise.............surely You know on re-reading it for the third time I am certain you started off having fun at Ivan/Mr's expense and it somehow natuarally evolved into summising the phantom's whole contribution.
Phantom
We all know(despite the suppression of info in the US) that Herbert Hoover was in cahoots with the toff Hamilton and Hess but reneged on the US's part of the bargain with the Nazi's in 1941. You guys were to get Canada, the British colonies in the Caribean and Bermuda. You also had first option on Australia and plans to turn the south island of New Zealand into a colony for your black population. The north island had been reserved for whatever Jews that were allowed to leave Nazi occupied Europe including Britain plus any of your own that wanted to flee the US.
Apparently the deal went wrong after secret scouting missions to Oz and Kiwi land persuaded the US delegation to re-negotiate the deal to get Greenland instead.
Now dance aroun that lil ol conundrum!
Tony
It wasn't aimed at Ivan.
I actually enjoy trying to convert him to the dark side
Hey! I'm not incontinent!
Well done, Julius!
Not me, Percy. I'm well away from the floods!
So this is Balrog on a Saturday night eh?
To All
You know my rules regarding ATW, I'm sick of people abusing my threads with nonsense.
In that vain Percy and Jo are no longer welcomes on Balrog.
I am very busy at the moment with work and I don't have time for this bullshit
Happy Thanksgiving to you, even though I know it's not an Irish thing.
We're terribly fond of this holiday here, as it is the one holiday that is largely free of political and sectarian religious overtones.
Let us give thanks.
And I hope that the work load eases up so that there can be a few more posts, even if they're only one in every two weeks.
Happy Thanksgiving, Phantom.
I've been invited to Thanksgiving dinner by some American friends here in Dublin. Should be fun!
Well looks like the iron curtain of censorship has descended once again....
weak people jacqui, weak people.
if there's a nasty bigot or a pedo-priest, or a theiving child murdering neighbour; mr.gaskin will always cover for them.
his soul is already in Hell!
Heaven is not for these devils
'his soul is already in Hell!'
Well he is a solicitor :D
james,
chris is politically astute, but morally a worm and a cretin.
probably why he eschews going to the Bar.
his party and future leader, chinny decides who is guilty and who is innocent, there's no need for judges or police in SA.
he can't even see what a total fucking joke this is.
Percy
You show a great disrespect to someone who allowed you the use of his megaphone until you abused it.
I am so disappointed in you.
yes you're right phantom,
I shouldn't have abused his hospitality.
I offer my apology for that and the outburst, which is a pack of lies.
cheers buddy.
you take care tom.
Commenting by HaloScan
