Good post, Chris. I suppose the news about Christy Burke today highlights the significance of some of your points.
In terms of policy formulation, I wonder if there isn't some scope for cross-fertilisation with some of the debates going on across the water about democratic republicanism as a response to the economic crisis.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/coop2b
"I suppose the news about Christy Burke today highlights the significance of some of your points."
It does indeed Tom
Chris,
A very good post. I hope the party are listening.
SINN FEIN SEEMED TO HAVE DONE VERY WELL IN THE MUNSTER AREA, CORK NOW HAVE 4 CITY COUNCILLORS FROM THE PARTY, TWO FROM THE NORTHSIDE AND TWO FROM THE SOUTH SIDE, TWO EXTRA THEN THE LAST ELECTION WHILE IN LIMERICK THE FIRST SINN FEIN CANDIDATE IN AROUND 50 YEARS HAS BEEN ELECTED TO CITY COUNCIL.
CAN I ALSO POINT OUT THAT FERRIS GOT MORE 1ST PREFERANCE VOTES THAN SINNOT OR LABOUR MAN KELLY, SHE ONLY LOST OUT IN TRANSFERS, SO IN REALITY SHE WAS THE PEOPLES CHOICE TO FILL THE THIRD SEAT.
"it is supposed to be a discussion piece and a formative tool in order for us to advance".
then open it up, like ATW, and have more writers from all round the British and Irish Isles
What a pleasure to read a focused, articulate critique with practical suggestions. To coin a phrase, will actions follow your words, Chris? Or is anybody listening?
"Mary Lou has also been subject to some pretty nasty press...a lot of it sexist."
"arch-Blue Shirt Gareth "Thatcher's Bitch" Fitzgerald"
Sinn Fein don't do Ironic self-parody but if they did....
Garret by the way you West Brit twat.
Chris, for an opposition party in the current political climate with the organisation and money that Sinn Fein has, to suffer a setback in the 26 county really takes some doing.
Take it from an outsider the profile of Sinn Feinn in the 26 counties is weak. Any party that would give the incoherent and unpopular Ó Snodaigh a high profile has clearly taken its eye off the ball despite his ever increasing clout in the Dublin party. Mary Lou isn't as popular as the leadership believe while their truly popular members the likes of Crowe are in the background. Clearly the Northern leadership plays very badly in the 26 counties and with a clear vacumn of dynamism intelligence and charisma political growth will have to give way to a fight for consolidation in the south.
Its evident that Sinn Fein are attempting to attract "mainstream" votes in the South. This creates difficulties in that socialism takes a back seat, for fear of spooking the middle classes. Working class voters, therefore, don't see Sinn Fein as a left wing party and, as this election showed, go elsewhere.
The "mainstreaming" is an attempt to attract transfers from other parties by making Sinn Fein inoffensive, an impossible task given the pathological hatred of republicans by the main players in the south, as well as the media, and the impact this has on transfer patterns.
Republicans would be better off focusing on the working class vote, in an open and honest way. Highlight socialist policies, don't hide them. There is a bedrock of support out there, others have shown that. Sinn Fein were outpolled in many areas by Fine Gael/Fianna Fail/Labour on the one hand and the Socialist Workers on the other. Attempting sanitise Sinn Fein to the point where transfers from FG/FF will tip the balance will ensure that the party will have lost any unique attractiveness to the working class. A left coalition involving Labour is a pipe dream. Labour are not left wing, they've bought into the centre-right ethos of the political establishment and they are controlled by people who are anti-republican with an almost religious fervour.
Sinn fein need to be aggressively socialist and they need to develop and cost policies which are concrete -not wooly - and feasible. Demand a free health service, show the cost compared to the bloated inefficient structures that currently exist to support vested interests, free education, nationalise key resources and industries and attack the working class nightmare that is the south.
Won't make any friends in the establishment, but might make republicans feel better and even gain a leadership roll in a left wing revival.
I hope the party our listening Chris. Excellent set of proposals! All I would add to that is that Sinn Féin need to carry out a mass poll with the Dublin electorate to really confirm some of our issues. I think it would also help if we condemned the murder of Garda McCabe publically.
Chris,
This is one of the best articles I have read that examines in some depth SF's electoral challenge.
A question and a point, one of the points you missed out is the vital need for SF to develop young working class activists who can replace the likes of Nicky and Christy. Yes university educated comrades have an important role to play, however it is clear that in some Dublin seats workers like to be represented by one of their own.
It seems to me the SF leadership recognizes this in the north, but tries to parachute favorites into constituencies and wards in the south.
My question is way is Mary Lou so unpopular, even with many SF members? Although maybe the answer is within my previous point?
"A question and a point, one of the points you missed out is the vital need for SF to develop young working class activists who can replace the likes of Nicky and Christy. Yes university educated comrades have an important role to play, however it is clear that in some Dublin seats workers like to be represented by one of their own."
Mick when I said I wanted to see young, educated and articulate people standing it should not be assumed that I meant University graduates.
Some of the most educated people I have met in my life never attended University.
Irish politics is very local candidate, we must always nuture local talent
I can't say much more thn Mick Hall. We need to develop local working class candidates as well as those from other social groups
Chris - delighted to see you in action again. When you went quiet I thought you might have done something foolish like get married !
does the minimally reduced turn-out in nationalist areas really explain the big drop in Ms De Brún's vote? The Unionist drop is easily explained - the 3 way vote split and disillusion with politics thanks to the Daily Telegraph lifting the expenses stone. But SF voters would if anything approve of anybody lifting a few shillings out of the British coffers 
I'd like your thoughts on the Ryan Report - proof positive that the Unionist community were right in the back in the days of Covenant and a loss of credibility for traditional Gaelic and very Catholic Irish Republicanism ?
I thought unionists in the "days of covenance" were driven by religious fervour, not anti-religiosity.
I'm unaware of any concerns about the management of institutions being to the forefront of their considerations. Quite the contrary, in fact, they wanted the institutions to be mismanaged by their own religion
Observer -consider the words of the Solemn League and Covenant of 1912
“Being convinced in our consciences that Home Rule would be disastrous to the material well-being of Ulster as well as of the whole of Ireland, subversive of our civil and religious freedom, destructive of our citizenship and perilous to the unity of the Empire”
Can you deny that the Ryan report vindicates their fears about a Church dominated state ?
Remember - in 1951 Attorney General C.F. Casey stated "This country is a predominantly Catholic country. That does not mean that Parliament should penalise any other creed, but it does mean this, that Parliament cannot surely be asked to introduce legislation contrary to the teaching of that great Church."
Your reply has one major flaw - those objecting did not have a "religion" - they had many religions. The largest religion in the Six counties was and still is Roman Catholic. Those objecting were not demanding the primacy of the C of I or any of the Presbyterian Churches or the Methodist Church etc etc.
You can of course say that some objection was based on Bigotry, negativism towards the Irish Catholic Church - and history has surely shown their fears were well founded, from the days of Yeats' appeal in the Senate being ignored right through to the recent revelations.
Finally - thoughts on why Ms De Brún's vote shows such a big fall in relation to the nationalist turn out which was nothing like as reduced as the unionist turn out ?
Ivan
The actions of those who signed the covenant were designed to ensure the dominance of anti-Catholic denominations. They aimed for and created a Protestant state, a Protestant dominated parliament, civil service and police force.
Religious liberty only applied to non Catholics and the whole setup was not dissimilar to a gigantic institution which abused the Catholics who lived within it.
Don't even try to suggest that these people were interested in liberty for anyone but themselves, to the exclusion of their non Protestant neighbours.
The old chestnut that Catholics are the largest religious group in the North is only valid in theoretical terms. They are not accepted by members of the Protestant denominations as equal partners, nor were they ever. There were many different white groups in the Confederacy, but they had one thing in common - they weren't black.
Those groups fought for their rights as well, using many dignified and high sounding phrases. They were still supremacists and racist bigots.
No, my friend, the covenant wasn't something to be proud of. It was simply an attempt of one group of religious fanatics to maintain dominance.
SF vote didn't show a "big fall".
You are avoiding the issue by pointing the finger at NI - shame on you! That is EXACTLY the attitude that caused the problems in the 26 counties to continue through until the 1990s - which shows that if those you venerate had achieved Authority in NI you and people like you would have allowed the Church to do what it did in the 26 Counties up here in NI rather than deal with the problem. More worried about being found out than the systematic abuse, slavery and denial of rights.
That the RC church is the largest denomination in the North is fact. The only equivalent domination ended in 1870 with the dis-establishment of the Church of Ireland, in the 19th century
And please don't be dishonest about Ms De Brún's Vote
2004 144,541
2009 126,184
That is a drop of 18,357 votes , The SF vote was 12.7% less than 2004!
Ivan
The drop in the Sinn Féin vote is easily explained.
1. There was a general drop in turnout.
2. It was a European election and Bairbre's seat was never at risk. Sinn Féin ran an almost silent election campaign.
If you think this was a bad election for Sinn Féin then just wait for the next Westminster seat when we pick up new seats.
Chris - you miss my point -
your dog doesn't run
1) The 2004 election was ALSO a European election
2)The general drop in turnout MAINLY was in the Unionist community - Hence her 26% (2009) as compared to 26.3% (2004). However no way was there a 12 percent drop in turnout in nationalist areas. Her vote was disastrous for you - hell, she was a fair bit closer to Mitchell McLaughlin's showing in 1999 (117,643 )
No matter which way you spin it, it is a big step backwards for your party.
Nonsense Ivan and any future Assembly, Westminster or local election will prove that.
I'll even put money on with you now if you would like?
Ivan
SF achieved 26% of the vote. In the previous election they achieved 26.3% of the vote. As I said, not a big fall.
Please don't engage in vote counting as it implies that SF voters are somehow different from everyone else and are not affected by the usual factors that influence turnout.
"You are avoiding the issue by pointing the finger at NI - shame on you!"
I am addressing the issue! Your point was not simply that the actions of the Catholic Church were wrong, but that those supremacists who produced your covenant were in some way prescient and well intended because of this. Your argument is similar to suggesting that the Nazis were right to invade the USSR because of the future crimes committed by Stalin.
Both were evil regimes and motivated by self interest.
You revert to the "Catholics are the single largest religion in the North" argument, ignoring my response to that silly point. Slaves made up half the population in Rome at the height of the Empire. They had as much influence on Imperial policy as Catholics had in the North.
Apart from Catholics, how many other Christian denominations are barred from the Orange Order?
"..which shows that if those you venerate had achieved Authority in NI.."
I doubt if Horslips would ever have achieved authority in the North.
"..you and people like you would have allowed the Church to do what it did in the 26 Counties up here in NI rather than deal with the problem."
Actually, I would have secularised the state, and that is what Republicans are doing to the North, much to the dismay of the religious zealots within unionism.
Whoa Observer - that is ridiculous spin - You CANNOT ignore the relative turn outs and say "it was only a drop of 0.3%."
It was a drop of 12.7% in her vote.
Chris - the Figures have you cold mate
SF Vote EU Elections
1999 - 117,643
2004 - 144,541
2009 - 126,184
Even if we ignore the differential turn out what do we find ?
Averaged out the turnout was only 9% down - SF vote was 12.7% lower than 2004
Ivan
The reason we use percentages is because the individual vote for candidates does not tell us anything.
The SF vote was down by 0.3% as a percentage of the poll. Your desire to resort to raw, unprocessed, numbers
in the hope of misrepresenting the outcome is ludicrous.
The SF vote has gone up and down since the early 80s, in keeping with every other party. On this occasion, SF topped the poll. They didn't last time. Good show!
Now, what about my response to your other points?
Don't be silly Observer - That 26% is as meaningful as the medal statistics from the 1980 Moscow Olympics.
The reason you use the percentage is called face-saving. The SF vote was down considerably more than the average decrease in turnout could explain - and especially significant considering the Nationalist turnout was higher than that of the Unionist community
Come, come, me old china. We're going around in circles here.
The vote was down across the board. The SF percentage was down slightly.
The SDLP may have picked up some and even the Greens could have stolen a few.
The DUP vote was a howler, but not significant enough to stop us twisting SF topping the poll into a defeat.
Any comeback on the religion thing?
The SF percentage was down slightly.
SF vote was was down 12.7% - that is more than slightly
Your religious points seem to be to lay down shoals of Red herrings
One quick example - you ask
"Apart from Catholics, how many other Christian denominations are barred from the Orange Order?"
Quakers and Unitarians.
Smoke to distract from the fundamental point - the Concerns expressed about what an Ireland Run by the Catholic church - and don't tell me it wasn't - would be like were shown to be well founded. That NI was a Cold House for it's minority does not alter that in any way.
"Quakers and Unitarians."
Probably wouldn't be much use in a lynch mob
"Your religious points seem to be to lay down shoals of Red herrings"
Not at all, Ivan. My point isn't that the Catholic Church aren't responsible for crimes against ordinary people, but that the northern Protestant establishment are a mirror image and with a bit more power because they actually owned a state apparatus, rather than influenced it.
"That NI was a Cold House for it's minority does not alter that in any way."
It does if you were a victim of zealots on either side of the border.
The only answer is a truly secular state, where politics, not religion is the deciding factor in who governs and how they govern.
Schadenfreude is a popular pastime here, along with misinterpreting election results
Observer - of course victims of injustice in the North have justified grievances - but these do no alter the fact that what was feared - a state dominated by the Irish Catholic Church and it's less than humane attitudes - came into being. We shouldn't forget that the Unease with The RC Church was mot limited to NI – as shown by the ructions over the First Vatican Council and the announcement of Papal Infallibility – in which Paul Cullen was involved – which lead to exchanges by luminaries such as Gladstone and Newman. And of course the well was poisoned ny Ne Temere.
I agree 100 % that we need to separate out Church from faith. A good catholic is better than a bad Anglican or Presbyterian or Methodist etc etc
But in NI no single Church held anything like the dominant position that McQuaid et al held. We should not ignore the fundamental difference between the protestant churches and the Roman Catholic Church - Protestants are only guided by their pastors whereas the RC Church was authoritarian and told people with the sanction of excommunication - so we did not have anything like
In 1948 Costello, having displaced De Valera in government, wrote to the new pope :
“on the occasion of our assumption of office……my colleagues and myself desire to repose at the feet of your holiness the assurance of our filial loyalty and our devotion to your August person”
After the Mother and Child bill Costello as Taoiseach said - in a speech supposedly written by McQuaid -
“As a Catholic, I obey my Church authorities, and will continue to do so,”
Not to mention that Business of Bertie and All Hallows.
Or from Seanad 1988 - http://historical-
debates.oireac...8807120008.html
At the back of all of this of course is the fact that the Catholic Church throughout the 19th and 20th centuries has consistently pursued the aim of control of schools. In a forgotten chapter of Irish history in 1919-20, one of the reasons the Catholic bishops supported the transfer of power from the Parliamentary Party to [2553] Sinn Féin was that the Sinn Féin organisation were willing to toe the Episcopal line on educational policy. It has not changed from the time 120 years ago when Cardinal Cullen said “There is nothing that so concerns us as education, nothing that is so much our business”— meaning Catholic business. The position has not changed today where Bishop Cathal Daly, for all his impassioned and no doubt sincere protestations of peace and reconciliation at the New Ireland Forum, refuses to appoint a chaplain to Lagan College which recently was rightly described as the flagship of integrated education. Fr. Denis Faul, an honest man indeed, said in his honesty, quite recently, “we will give up our Churches before we give up our schools.” We know, then, where the Catholic Church stands on this matter.
In a Different Context Séan De Fréine said
"It is perfectly understandable that people who have lived with and loved a part
In a Different Context Séan De Fréine said
"It is perfectly understandable that people who have lived with and loved a particular symbol all their lives... should resent being asked to look at it a little more closely or critically."
The Ryan report should hopefully enable people who love the Irish nationalist myth to open their eyes - although it is more likely that they will try, like Bertie and Cardinal Brady did, to pretend that it was an unrepresentative "them" who did it and only a little bit of tinkering at the edges is needed.
If unification is the aim then very major changes will be needed.
Ivan
You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that I could care less about religion, Catholic or Protestant.
The actions and motivations of the Catholic Church is the business of the Catholic Church and its adherents. Like those followers of the Protestant denominations, they feel justified in protecting their interests, often at the expense of others. In Ireland the Protestant churches, despite representing a minority, were able to ensure that non Protestants (and some Protestant sects) were discriminated against in all aspects of life. After partition, they managed to discriminate quite successfully in the North. They did all of this, not because they were frightened of Catholics, but because they wished to be in charge. Not because they were good Christians and Catholics aren't, but because they considered themselves superior to Catholics, a very non Christian attitude.
When the Catholic Church got a grip on the powerbrokers in the South, they did the same thing as Protestants had been doing for centuries and were continuing to do in their enclave over the border.
Instead of attempting to justify the actions of one set of superstitious bigots and criticising the actions of another, perhaps we should be focusing on the need for the people of this island to explore the possibility of a shared future, without the baggage of religious intolerance.
If the clergy were unable to influence those in positions of political influence, by law, we would all be a lot better off.
God willing
I disagree that the Catholic Church in the ROI behaved as the Protestants had behaved for centuries and continued to behave in the 20th century - the Ryan report proves that conclusively.
No offence, but it's rather a silly statement - the Irish Catholic Church is an organisation - "protestants" are a group of people - if you pardon the expression, that is comparing apples and oranges
The actions and motivations of the Catholic Church is the business of the Catholic Church and its adherents.
Again, that is silly - when an unaccountable authoritarian organisation is given the TEMPORAL power they had it is EVERYBODY'S business.
There are so many different Protestant sects, all of whom are organisations, I chose, rather lazily, to lump them all together.
I had hoped we could avoid pedantism and address the issue.
The collective "Protestant" organisations engaged in actively applying discrimination, conjuring up new methods of discrimination, fomenting violence against Catholics resulting in death or injury and propagating hate. For a very long time. They also exercised undue influence over the governance of the island and later the northern enclave.
"..when an unaccountable authoritarian organisation is given the TEMPORAL power they had it is EVERYBODY'S business."
Catholics thought that about the north, but those in positions of authority disagreed. They weren't Protestant, so the state didn't belong to them.
In some ways, the hierarchical nature of Catholicism allows the likes of a Ryan report to expose those responsible for the brutality.
How are we going to identify the "Protestants" responsible for creating the abusive and violent institution that was the north?
Interview them all, perhaps?
Shouldn't be too difficult to spot the unreconstructed abusers. They'll be the ones who still think only Catholics do wrong
Again Observer you are missing the point - to which Church or Organisation did the NI state hand education and healthcare as the default option ? And did any Church have the authority claimed and given by the RC denomination in which they could spiritually blackmail people into obedience?
I don't usually miss the point, Ivan.
The six counties was run as a fiefdom for non Catholic denominations. The organs of the state weren't blackmailed into doing the bidding of Protestant religious groupings, or psuedo religious groups, they were paid regular salaries.
State holidays commemorate the supremacy of Protestantism and Catholics are gifted with over 3000 triumphalist marches every year. Lest they forget.
The actions of those running the state and those multitudes who marched, burned, beat, imprisoned, lied and murdered suggests that it was more than a collection of individual free thinkers.
I think I'd rather be blackmailed. Its less terminal
To pretend obtuseness on this issue does you no credit.
I'm beginning to recall why I stopped contributing to blogsites.
Observer - What about the bad Prods in North is getting a bit boring - Why wasn't there the same abuse in the Catholic institutions in the North ?
Because the Church wasn't calling the shots. It's really rather sad that you think it better that the Children of the free state were used as slave labour and systematically abused than be protected .
You think abuse didn't take place in the north??
Apart from the state abuse of nearly half the population, children were abused in institutions with as much fervour as anywhere else. Catholic institutions, non Catholic institutions, voluntary, statutory, you name it.
Bastards are bastards, doesn't matter what religion they use to describe themselves. Priests or pastors, didn't seem to matter.
The most recent documentary on BBC related to a "state" institution.
Are you taking obtuse pills?
I would have banned religious institutions from any significant role in the state. I would have banned any denominational ethos in a state.
North or south, when one religion dominates, somebody else suffers.
To acknowledge one sides failings only is dishonest and perpetuates the belief the one type of religious control is more acceptable than another.
Now you are being silly. Of course abuse took place in the North - but nothing like as revealed in Ryan.
We don't know that yet, Ivan.
Perhaps we need a Ryan report ourselves.
methinks you clutcheth at straws bro
Don't we all
Commenting by HaloScan
