courageous comments.. well said
innocent Catholic there are no innocent Catholics you are all guilty of standing by and allowing a few madmen murder any chance of real peace in our time very very soon our madmen will start doing likewise and im afraid so very afraid for all of us
You prob stood by and let kingrat run loose blue
Oh i see so these three murders are for what Bill Wright did it all makes sense now ...... on saturday afternoon only a few like myself thought King Rat was a hero tonight thousands are wishing he was still around !!!! well done
I Stumbled across this blog after tonight’s murder.
Sorry for the anonymous bit, but I still don't trust any of you lot. "You haven't gone away you know" I'd support a lot of Sinn Fein policy but the thug element and weak candidates in Leinster prevent me.
As an ordinary Irish man with traditional values and a sense of right and wrong - well said Chris.
I urge republicans with guns not to over react against this vermin and i pray the Brits don’t make the predictable step of sending over the SAS.
The GFA is the way forward. The PSNI, GARDA and Republicans need to get these men behind bars. They need to be pursued by legal and judicial means only.
Republicans need to support the institutions of the state which the people voted for. FULL SUPPORT, not the Paul Quinn charade.
Billy wright was a hero? he was down in pits with these boys at d min
I wish someone could sit down with the folks behind this campaign and gently explain to them that the chance that these attacks will lead to a united Ireland is basically zero.
But then "soldiers" who shoot pizza men as an integral part of their armed struggle are beyond being gently reasoned with.
I pity them and their small-mindedness.
Time for former PIRA/ex-prisoners and other top republicans to step up to the plate and publically say, "stop this now or else."
"republicans with guns" what the hell do republicans need guns for? dont you realise you WERE winning the peace i really cant see what more you want so near yet so far, either hand these scum over or sort them out yourselves but please act now for all our sakes
Who the hell are these fuckwits? Are you trying to tell me the Sinners don't know who they are? That seems pretty obvious... at least, it's obvious that they know a lot more than they divulge to the relevant bodies... the burning question is, are they going to divvy up the info?
Let's hope to God they do xo
A courageous post.
NCM, you don't seem yet to see that by the reasoning of the perpetrators of these attacks, "success" on their terms does not require a military solution, "success" only requires making any and all political solution impossible. Destabilise, dehumanise, provoke excessive use of force by the security forces in vulnerable areas, bring down the government (such as it is), drive both communities away from voices of compromise and compassion -- it is as calculated, and predictable, as algebra. Provoking loyalist retaliation would not be an unforeseen unwelcome consequence to this strategy, it is a vital part of the equation. They are not looking to return the troops to the streets as an end in itself, but as a route towards blood in the streets, in the mistaken hopes of reigniting what they see as revolution, but Chris has correctly identified as chaos.
Chris is right -- the only answer to these killings are in mass, non-violent protests, signs lining the streets in Irish and in English, people of all faiths and none, new immigrants and old veterans.
Not in our name, not in our name, not in our name.
You say...:
"I am convinced that we can gain a United Ireland through political means; I only wish I was as sure of heaven as I am of this.
I am also convinced that all these actions by the dissidents do is to undermine that political change."
Personally, I'm neutral on that one. But what is a united Ireland for, exactly? Would you accept an Ireland where everyone enjoyed the highest standards of democracy, where there was no inequality or discrimination, but where the border remained?
I'm asking this to see if you think that there has *ever* been a case in which political violence was justified *purely* in pursuit of a united Ireland?
I understand the argument that 'we live in a corrupt sectarian statelet and that a united Ireland would deal with the corruption / sectarianism' - and therefore violence towards that end is justifiable.
But it seems to me that there is a change that Irish republicans need to unite around now: The view that a it has *never* been acceptable to offer political violence in pursuit of a united Ireland alone.
Discrimination or an absence of democracy may justify it. Nationalism alone never will. This is a simple message, and one that *should* be easy for SF to unite around.
What I don't know is, is it a position that a significant fraction of SF's supporters wouldn't accept?
If that is the case, then this won't be a flash-in-the-pan.
'A courageous post!? more like Hypocritical.
If you believe that the RIRA or the Continuity will be responsible for any loyalist 'retaliation' against innocent Catholics then it is logical to blame the mainstream IRA for the hundreds of loyalist murders down the years and indeed, many people used make that claim but you have used your blog to laud and glorify the IRA and for me that is hypocrisy. (I supported the IRA, btw.) Tens of thousands marched, prayed, picketed, said 'not in my name'(I wasn't one of them)trying to get the IRA to quit too, Chris, and this is nothing new. Didn't a bishop of Kerry say that "Hell is not hot enough or eternity long enough for the Fenians."? Plus ca change
Taken this from ÓSF new e-zine Spark, very good:
The Irish peace process has brought massive transformation to Ireland and its people.
It has witnessed the early release of hundreds of republican political prisoners, it has ensured a peaceful stable society, it has opened up massive cross border co-operation, it has ensured the right to referenda for a United Ireland, which now gives Irish Republicans the real opportunity to achieve freedom and equality through democratic means.
The British War Machine has been massively reduced, with British soldiers no longer patrolling our streets, country roads or setting up checkpoints, there has been significant changes to policing, with ongoing campaigns and negotiations on Demilitarisation and transfer of policing and justice.
Sinn Féin have overtaken the SDLP as the largest party representing the Republican/Nationalist community in the north, and are the third largest party across Ireland, demonstrating popular support to our republican strategy for re-unification.
The politics of the north have been transformed from conflict to nation building, with Republicans now heavily involved in community struggle and outreach to the unionist community with even the former biggest block to the peace process, the DUP, sitting in power sharing government with Sinn Féin.
It is not perfect, struggle never is, and at times testing scenarios are thrown up, but progress and popular support for Sinn Féin and Irish unity is constantly on the rise.
At this time of huge economic decline and the re-alignment of support to the left, Sinn Féin are focussed on challenging the massive budget cuts in the 26 counties, and making the most of a limited budget in the North.
They are ensuring that working class families, and the most deprived in society needs are met, and are constantly highlighting the failings of a partitioned arrangement in the north, especially on the lack of economic sovereignty and ability to set our own taxation.
Great hope and expectation reverberated from the last Ard Fheis as Gerry Adams key note address appealed to Labour and the Greens to form a Left Wing alternative and coalition that could challenge the mis-governance, incompetence and brown envelope negligence of Fianna Fail.
Fianna Fail have tried on numerous occasions to sort the current economic down turn out, and things have gotten worse each time, and so has their support. Their failure to accept any responsibility for the terrible state of the 26 County economy has alienated them from a large section of the electorate who are now considering voting left for the first time ever.
If Sinn Féin can open constructive progressive alliances with Labour in advance of the local and European elections, this could mean even bigger and better things for the next General Elections – a progressive Left Coalition, with a real opportunity of success, and a Left Republican Government.
I note all the above progress becaus
PART 2:
because, Sinn Féin’s All Ireland Agenda, and strategy for Irish Unity is being worked on, and gaining popular support all the time. Massive gains have been made and huge opportunities are there for the taking.
Sinn Féin have demonstrated their commitment to achieving our republican objectives consistently and many Sinn Féin activists have paid the ultimate sacrifice, in the ongoing struggle for Independence.
Sinn Féin have defended the right to armed struggle in the past, but always said that it was a last option when all other means had been exhausted.
Today, a peaceful and democratic means of achieving our objectives exists, it is a clear strategy (The All Ireland Agenda), it is being vigorously worked on, and is gaining massive popular support.
There are many opportunities for us in the time ahead, we are close on the road to freedom, now is not a time to be deflected from achieving what so many who went before us died for.
A corner has been turned, and freedom is on the way!
Not in my name!!!
Respect, Chris. Good on you.
On this issue I'm fully behind mainstream Republicans - for the first time in my life. You have my full moral support in ridding your community of these deluded fools who are betraying all the people of Ireland.
We must not allow Irishmen to murder Irishmen (or, yes, Englishmen who mean them no harm).
Does anyone else smell rodent?
Still at least the government hae lots of shiny new anti-terror laws that they can utilise.
Suely if Britain wanted to know who carried out these murders they could simply ask their MI5 agents inside the CIRA and RIRA.
Like Sleepingpostie says, "if you believe that the RIRA or the Continuity will be responsible for any loyalist 'retaliation' against innocent Catholics then it is logical to blame the mainstream IRA for the hundreds of loyalist murders down the years"
I know it's difficult for all Republicans to face up to the past, but one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter - you either believe in progress through peaceful means or you don't. The Real/Continuity IRA misrepresent mainstream, democratic Nationalist aspirations no more or less than Provisional IRA did for so many years.
Chris, you have no right to condemn Real/Continuity IRA until you have accepted that the murders committed by the IRA in the past were also a stain on the Nationalist community, north and south.
Whiskers,
Surely the SF argument is based around legitimacy? Pre-GFA, the position was that the 1918 election mandate had been torn up and that - until it was tested by an all-Ireland vote, it was the one true legitmate expression of the Irish national will. Any action prior to the GFA was legitimate by those lights. Any illegal actions once the GFA had been fully implemented were not legitimate.
Not my cup of tea at all, but as an explanation, it's what you will be offered. It allows it's protagonist to argue that what was acceptable pre-1998 is whole different to what is acceptable now. I don't see the point in not acknowledging the argument even if you're not going to fully accept it.
I agree with this post much more than the last. There are dozens of people mourning needlessly for loved ones murdered, a terrible wate of lives and I don't just mean the dead. The time for violence has long gone, sure the Brits are still here, a mere cosmetic temporary measure. killing them does nothing for the cause of Irish Nationalism, ifr anything the opposite is true.
I have yet to come across anyone with a coherent explanation of just what these groups hope to achieve. Has anyone? Perhaps like many Republican I too have been frustrated at the lack of progress, but progress it still is. Why do we need bloodshed to hurry up what is already the inevitable de-facto unification of the island? Just doesn't make sense.
Tony,
I agree these killings are wrong and I agree with yourself, Chris, and others that a political struggle is the way forward. However, I've yet to hear a convincing argument for unification being "inevitable"... I think that is a little on the hopeful side.
"Not in my name!!!
Respect, Chris. Good on you.
On this issue I'm fully behind mainstream Republicans - for the first time in my life. You have my full moral support in ridding your community of these deluded fools who are betraying all the people of Ireland.
We must not allow Irishmen to murder Irishmen (or, yes, Englishmen who mean them no harm)."
Oh I'm sure it does please you as a Unionist, Big Ulsterman, that so-called "Republican" politicians are now parroting the words of your Unionist politicians; the obedient, servile, cringing curs that Adams, McGuinness and his gang are. I'm sure it just thrills you to be able to offer "moral support" to the sell-out Adams and the rest of them.
"Surely the SF argument is based around legitimacy? Pre-GFA, the position was that the 1918 election mandate had been torn up and that - until it was tested by an all-Ireland vote, it was the one true legitmate expression of the Irish national will. Any action prior to the GFA was legitimate by those lights. Any illegal actions once the GFA had been fully implemented were not legitimate."
The will of the Irish people as expressed in the 1918 election remains defied to this day. The referenda for the GFA were held seperately, North and South, not on an All-Ireland basis. Therefore, the GFA has not superceded the mandate given to the Irish Republic in 1918.
"The time for violence has long gone, sure the Brits are still here, a mere cosmetic temporary measure. killing them does nothing for the cause of Irish Nationalism, ifr anything the opposite is true.
I have yet to come across anyone with a coherent explanation of just what these groups hope to achieve. Has anyone? Perhaps like many Republican I too have been frustrated at the lack of progress, but progress it still is. Why do we need bloodshed to hurry up what is already the inevitable de-facto unification of the island? Just doesn't make sense."
Your blase attitude to the continued British presence is what is wrong with Irish Republicanism today, as is your complacency with regard to reunification, which you conveniently describe as an inevitability. On what basis exactly is reunification inevitable?
"It has witnessed the early release of hundreds of republican political prisoners, it has ensured a peaceful stable society, it has opened up massive cross border co-operation, it has ensured the right to referenda for a United Ireland, which now gives Irish Republicans the real opportunity to achieve freedom and equality through democratic means."
I'd say the recent attacks show that society in the North is neither peaceful nor stable. Cross-border cooperation, Adams' magical formula for a United Ireland is neither massive nor significant to how the North is governed. As for referenda, these can only be held on a partitionist basis, not an all-Ireland basis.
"The politics of the north have been transformed from conflict to nation building, with Republicans now heavily involved in community struggle and outreach to the unionist community with even the former biggest block to the peace process, the DUP, sitting in power sharing government with Sinn Féin."
Nation-building, yes, building and consolidating a new Northern Ireland nation which remains firmly within the UK, in which Irish Republicanism will eventually no longer exist. Unionists are not interested in the Adams Faction's outreach and door-knocking grubbing for votes, they recognise it for the pathetic, desperate tragi-comedy show it is. As for the DUP, they have the Adams Faction firmly by the balls, having outmaneouvred and outwitted them at every turn.
"If Sinn Féin can open constructive progressive alliances with Labour in advance of the local and European elections, this could mean even bigger and better things for the next General Elections – a progressive Left Coalition, with a real opportunity of success, and a Left Republican Government."
Decoded, this means that the Adams Faction can only get power in the South through further compromising itself by aligning itself more deeply with other partitionist parties.
"A corner has been turned, and freedom is on the way!"
What corner? When will we have freedom exactly? More utter mindless complacency from the hero-worshippers of Gerry Adams.
Thanks to the courage of the SAS, the British Army, the RUC and the 1,000,000 British citizens of Northern Ireland, the PIRA have been defeated and surrendered their weapons, and Sinn Fein have accepted British rule in NI under the terms of the Belfast Agreement.
Shane, regardless of whether Adams et al are sellouts or not, do you really believe, in your heart of hearts, that a united Ireland will be achieved by the latest campaign of CIRA/RIRA armed action?
If so, do you believe the cost, in terms of human lives, suffering, and lost resources, will be worth it, compared to the cost of doing it through political means?
If the answer to the above is "no," then any support for this latest campaign doesn't add up.
And I have a hard time respecting any group of armed militants who actually defend shooting pizzamen as part of their stuggle... only a bunch of pussies would be proud of that. Sorry, but you know it's true.
The problem with the Adams Faction's approach is its belief that Unionists can be persuaded into a United Ireland. The truth is, they really can't, due to their inbred feelings of supremacism, their inbred intolerance, and inbred siege mentality. They founded their Orange statelet on the basis of the denial of the will of the people of Ireland, on the basis of the threat of civil war, on the basis of terrorism, rebellion, attempts at ethnic cleansing, coercion and gerrymandering. They never had any right to defy the will of the Irish people, being the small minority they are, and they still don't, no matter what certain so-called "Republicans" might think.
"Shane, regardless of whether Adams et al are sellouts or not, do you really believe, in your heart of hearts, that a united Ireland will be achieved by the latest campaign of CIRA/RIRA armed action?"
Not really, I never said I did.
"And I have a hard time respecting any group of armed militants who actually defend shooting pizzamen as part of their stuggle... only a bunch of pussies would be proud of that. Sorry, but you know it's true."
I agree, but such actions were never unique to the so-called "dissident" Repubicans.
Right, Shane, so you keep agitating politically and meanwhile the Catholic population will soon enough pass the majority mark and then you go for the end game through a referendum. I firmly believe I will see a united Ireland in the next few decades. You've waited 800 years, what's a few more?
"You've waited 800 years, what's a few more?"
Firstly, this "800 years" stuff is a myth, Ireland has never been under occupation for that long, any decent history book will tell you that. As for the second part of your question, well, its a non-question really, we should never have had to wait at all.
"Right, Shane, so you keep agitating politically and meanwhile the Catholic population will soon enough pass the majority mark and then you go for the end game through a referendum."
This outbreeding the Prods nonsense has been repeated by Nationalists ever since 1920, who thought it would happen within a few decades. I wouldn't count on it happening. It's a complacent attitude, a "don't worry, we'll eventually get a United Ireland by default" attitude. It also amounts to sectarian head-counting and as such is no basis for a United Ireland. In any case, I doubt strongly that there will be a United Ireland within a hundred years never mind a few decades.
Shane, I hear you, but shooting a cop, some Army engineers, and the pizza dudes ain't going to get the Brits out either -- especially when there's just not the logistical support needed to maintain a prolonged guerrilla campaign.
"Shane, I hear you, but shooting a cop, some Army engineers, and the pizza dudes ain't going to get the Brits out either -- especially when there's just not the logistical support needed to maintain a prolonged guerrilla campaign."
As I've already said, I happen to agree with you on this.
The futility of these recent attacks aside, you would have to be a Unionist or a Daily Mail reader to think that they weren't the real expression of severe discontent among a growing number of Republicans with what is going on at the moment. Don't let Adams fool you, these people probably have more support than everyone thinks.
these people probably have more support than everyone thinks
I hope they don't.
Shane
Are you prepared to present a coherent argument as to what positives for Republicans in killing Crown forces at this juncture? As someone who has a modicum of clarity on the struggle and the resulting peace process I must admit to being baffled. I only see senseless misery.
Julias
As soon as the reactionary forces in Unionism were forced to the table by the British it began. The process of unification may not be the flag waving celebration that we would all desire, but this current process is only going one way, not quick enough I will be the first to concede.
"Are you prepared to present a coherent argument as to what positives for Republicans in killing Crown forces at this juncture? As someone who has a modicum of clarity on the struggle and the resulting peace process I must admit to being baffled. I only see senseless misery."
If you had read my posts properly you would not be baffled, because you would know that I have never even implied that I support the recent killings. As for what you call "misery", I think it would be better described as hard-headed, objective realism. Why don't you aks yourself why a growing number of Republicans are becoming severely disillusioned with the "strategy" of the Adams Faction.
"The process of unification may not be the flag waving celebration that we would all desire, but this current process is only going one way, not quick enough I will be the first to concede."
The only direction this "process" is going in is the ever deeper entrenchment of the six counties in the UK.
As if there wasn't enough tension already, we now have that toadying sell-out McGuinness stirring things up by calling those behind these recent attacks "traitors to Ireland". Well, Marty would know all about treachery now wouldn't he.
but this current process is only going one way
I don't see it, Tony, but I am open to persuasion.
"I don't see it, Tony, but I am open to persuasion."
Unlike the Unionists, then.
Here's an excerpt of eirigi's position, newly posted to their website. Perfectly stated:
http://www.eirigi.org/latest/
lat...st100309_2.html
“It is éirígí's position that the British occupation is the underlying cause of the ongoing conflict in Ireland. Our history demonstrates that until that underlying cause is addressed that conflict will continue indefinitely.
“éirígí unequivocally supports the right of Irish people to oppose British rule in Ireland.
“éirígí believes that British interference in Ireland can best be challenged at this time through the building of an all-Ireland popular movement in support of national reunification and independence.
...
“While supporting the right of any people to defend themselves from imperial aggression éirígí does not believe that the conditions exist at this time for a successful armed struggle against the British occupation.
“As can be seen from the recent attacks on Britain’s armed forces it is clear that not all republicans agree on how the British occupation should be resisted at this time. Those who carried out those attacks are best placed to explain their own rationale.
“As with all of the countless and avoidable deaths that have occurred throughout the centuries of British interference in Ireland, the ultimate political responsibility for these most recent deaths lies with the British government and wider British establishment.”
okay Chris I am about to say some profane shit, some plain shit and some plain old shit. edit, delete or ban as you feel.
Sinn Fein has not accepted nor will they ever accept the legitimacy of the english occupation. They have accepted the legitimacy of a process to end this pornographic occupation
Republicans have agreed to a non-violent process to end the immoral occupation
unionists are and have always been an evil influence, they are the uneducated, racist boors of nIreland
Even if an united is never achieved in your life time it will never vindicate the sectarian fuck up that is nIreland
"Sinn Fein has not accepted nor will they ever accept the legitimacy of the english occupation. They have accepted the legitimacy of a process to end this pornographic occupation"
Err, really, just what planet are you on? I suggest you actually read the Good Friday and St. Andrew's Agreements. Can you also tell me what McGuinness calling Republicans who dare oppose British rule "traitors" amounts to if not acceptance of the "legitimacy" of British rule?
"unionists are and have always been an evil influence, they are the uneducated, racist boors of nIreland"
Why does your party constantly suck up to them then? Why is your party afraid of them then? Why is your party incapable of effectively challenging them in the glorified county council that is the "Northern Ireland Assembly" then?
"Even if an united is never achieved in your life time it will never vindicate the sectarian fuck up that is nIreland"
Perhaps, but that's not the issue. What does "vindicate the sectarian fuck up that is nIreland" however is so-called Republicans administering British rule e.g. Adams and McGuinness.
It's interesting how that "policeman" who was killed, Carroll, came originally from Co. Kildare. Also how was a long-time veteran in that fine organisation the RUC. An exemplary mercenary he was. All I will say is, such people should be stripped of their Irish citizenship.
LOL @ Sean's nonsense at 03.11.09 - 2:45 am
unionists are and have always been an evil influence, they are the uneducated, racist boors of nIreland
Even if an united is never achieved in your life time it will never vindicate the sectarian fuck up that is nIreland
Do you disagree then, JG, that Unionists have always been far more trouble than they were ever worth, and that "Northern Ireland" is "a sectarian fuck up"?
Read the article and have no specific comment on it other than it is blidingly obvious common sense.
Last night Newsnight said two women in Craigavon were too frightened to be shown on TV giving their personal views. I understand that. What I don't understand is why - and it may be that this is going to happen - the gentlemen of PIRA don't have a serious "word" in the ears of the men of the Real IRA or CIRA in the way they have had simlar words in the past with others? I don't expect men who were previously "allies" to execute those perpetrators but to make clear that they jeopardise every gain they have made for the republican cause, which jeopardy will not be taken lightly. It is only from within the republican community that this supposed abberation will be exorcised.
Unionists are uneducated? I find that as amusing as it is ridiculous. Lets take a step back however.
The events of recent days were executed by republicans. The IRA (in all its forms) sourced the weapons/funding and provided the training to allow these murderers to take innocent life. They are a product of your own evil doings, and you must now learn to deal with these thugs as you are the only people who can even come close to understanding what corrupt thoughts are going through their little brains.
The question is... what are you going to do about it?
Dave
Shane,
I think the following is a despicable statemnt:
unionists are and have always been an evil influence, they are the uneducated, racist boors of nIreland
I don't agree with this. Unionists are part of Ireland, part of the history of Ireland. Talk of the entire unionist community being an "evil influence" is what makes unionists so repelled by the prospect of Irish unity. They fear that once they become the minority, in an all Ireland state, that "we" would treat them as "they" treated "us" in times past. If the likes of Sean had his way, no doubt "we" would.
Even if an united is never achieved in your life time it will never vindicate the sectarian fuck up that is nIreland
This just doesn't make a grain of sense!
"What I don't understand is why - and it may be that this is going to happen - the gentlemen of PIRA don't have a serious "word" in the ears of the men of the Real IRA or CIRA in the way they have had simlar words in the past with others? I don't expect men who were previously "allies" to execute those perpetrators but to make clear that they jeopardise every gain they have made for the republican cause, which jeopardy will not be taken lightly. It is only from within the republican community that this supposed abberation will be exorcised."
If you think that the RIRA/CIRA would be prepared to listen to anything said by the Adams Faction, then you have not grasped the significance behind these attacks. The RIRA have demonstrated ever since their formation in 1997, that they are not afraid of Provo threats, even if the same cannot be said of the CIRA.
The irony of someone who can barely construct a coherent, gramatically correct, sentence, accusing others of being "uneducated" won't be missed by most people.
"Even if an united is never achieved in your life time it will never vindicate the sectarian fuck up that is nIreland"
I think that what the author meant is that even if we don't get a United Ireland within the coming decades, "Republicans" will still have the "satisfaction" of knowing that they live in a new, caring, sharing, everyone-is-happy "Northern Ireland".
"I don't agree with this. Unionists are part of Ireland, part of the history of Ireland. Talk of the entire unionist community being an "evil influence" is what makes unionists so repelled by the prospect of Irish unity. They fear that once they become the minority, in an all Ireland state, that "we" would treat them as "they" treated "us" in times past. If the likes of Sean had his way, no doubt "we" would."
Read my earlier comments if you want to know what I think. To put it bluntly, I believe that the "Unionists", because of their history, will only ever respond to strong, no-nonsense government, rather than persuasion. Their defiance needs to be met by a strong whip hand.
"I don't agree with this. Unionists are part of Ireland, part of the history of Ireland. Talk of the entire unionist community being an "evil influence" is what makes unionists so repelled by the prospect of Irish unity. They fear that once they become the minority, in an all Ireland state, that "we" would treat them as "they" treated "us" in times past. If the likes of Sean had his way, no doubt "we" would."
The thing is, I don't think we ever really gave them anything to fear. It was the Unionist squirearchy of Carson and Craig that began the demonisation of the Irish Republic with their self-serving talk about "Rome Rule", and that demonisation has been continued by their successors, very effectively. The truth is that Irish Republicans have traditionally always dismissed the significance of Unionism.
Shane,
I'm not a Unionist.
"Shane,
I'm not a Unionist."
My sincere apologies, then. I hope you weren't too offended.
The irony of someone who can barely construct a coherent, gramatically correct, sentence, accusing others of being "uneducated" won't be missed by most people.
JG | Homepage | 03.11.09 - 12:23 pm | #
I admire your optimism, JG.
"There are dozens of people mourning needlessly for loved ones murdered, a terrible wate of lives and I don't just mean the dead." Tony | 03.10.09 - 7:34 pm | #
Well said, Tony. Meanwhile, sleepingpostie, Whiskers O'Driscoll, et. al. have taken the full measure of the last few days and decided what they most wish to rail against is...wait for it...hypocrisy.
Remarkable. Hypocrisy is as necessary a part of civilisation as opposable thumbs. In this age of keyboards, probably even more necessary. Hypocrisy was and is part of the peace process, of course it is. How could it not be, when it was part of the war as it was conducted by all three sides of a three sided conflict. (I would mention the hypocrisy of the South, too, but don't want to wake Dave) Hypocrisy was part of the formation of the state, and hypocrisy will be as needed and necessary in the first decades of a successful united Ireland as air and electricity.
Hypocrisy is here to stay. Get over it.
If Chris had merely said that he opposed the killings because they looked to light the fuse to a chain of predictable reactions certain to land far too many Irish people in untimely graves or in gaol, would that have been more to your liking?
The question of the hour is whether you support the killings, or whether you oppose them. Leave the whys to muse out for yourself when you are still driving someone to hydrotherapy 18 years after their last kneecapping, or reflecting on the dead child who would now be old enough to be a very young grandmother, had she lived.
If you support the killings, explain why. If you do not support them, but instead of saying so choose to hang until dead all hope for the future on the twisted ropes of the past -- banging on about your standards of hypocrisy and moral consistency -- congratulations, hard men. You are as useful as a nun preaching the virtue of virginity to a woman ten centimeters dilated and about to give birth without painkillers.
Susan
You may think hypocrisy is unimportant but when we have the likes of McGuinnes who was happy to have people strapped into their own vehicle and driven into brit bases to blow themselves and others up having the cheek to lecture others then that is hypocrisy with an edge. Are we to take our lead from hypocrites? take orders from them? Are we even to pretend to believe their hypocrisy or their politics? Do you trust liars? We have a choir singing 'unity', s.f and d.u.p while in reality they are poles apart, more rank hypocrisy and when adams said that the shootings in antrim were 'counterproductive' you may understand why some of us, who know a bit about him, didn't go warm and fuzzy.
Do I support the shootings, my stance is the same as it has been for many years, if irish people decide to have a go at the brits i will not disown them or call them 'traitors'.
will we have to put psni/ruc and brit army members on the ira roll of honour now? will we hear 'republicans' singing in the pubs (they're good at that) about how poor constable or captain so and so was shot by 'irish traitors'.
Shane
>>If you had read my posts properly you would not be baffled, because you would know that I have never even implied that I support the recent killings.>(I would mention the hypocrisy of the South, too, but don't want to wake Dave)
Shengis ah forgot that I still can't cut'n'paste here without it cutting the rest of my post.
To Shane
I never reckoned that you did support the attacks. I was looking to see if you knew of any coherent argument for violent action. Also I too share your frustration over just how slow the process is but without wishing to sound too naive of about unleashing a latent master plan. Do you know of an alternative?
Susan
I agree wholeheartedly with the essence of your comments. About Dave hypocrisy defines the man, formerly known as the Dubliner around here in better times.
Julias
SF in this process have lost far more battles than they have won, indeed their less than aggressive stance at times has grated with almost everyone I'd imagine. Sometimes I reckon that their is a policy of patronising the dying embers of Unionist reactionaries, letting them lash out now and then just like the auld days. Whilst missing the bigger picture that inexorably the process grinds on, albeit all too slowly.
@susan | 03.11.09 - 3:01 pm |
Susan. Great comment, well said.
Tony,
Yeah it's just that nobody can explain to me how, specifically, this process leads to Irish unity.
It might well lead that way, but it could just as easily ebb along as it is.
Susan, hypocrisy is one thing, seling-out completely is another.
"Do you know of an alternative?"
Your party has betted everything on the so-called "peace process", invested everything in it, so much so that there doesn't appear to be any feasible alternative at this time. Even if there was one, your lot would probably just slander its proponents as "traitors to Ireland". The Adams Faction is FAR too comfortable with the false trappings of power to consider alternatives which deprive them of their ministerial pay and perks and homes in Donegal.
"SF in this process have lost far more battles than they have won, indeed their less than aggressive stance at times has grated with almost everyone I'd imagine."
Your candour is pleasing, but why, pray tell, are the Adams Faction still going on with the so-called "peace process" when they have "lost far more battles than they have won"? Doesn't that say something about the feasibility of the Adams Faction's "strategy" for a United Ireland?
"Sometimes I reckon that their is a policy of patronising the dying embers of Unionist reactionaries, letting them lash out now and then just like the auld days."
Do you seriously believe such nonsense? "Patronising" is the word alright, patronising nonsense to any Irish Republican. You give the Adams Faction far too much credit, and the Unionists not nearly enough, but then again, Irish Republicans have always sorely underestimated the Unionists. Unionism is stronger now than it has been since before the Troubles started.
"Whilst missing the bigger picture that inexorably the process grinds on, albeit all too slowly."
On what basis do you make this statement? What are the tangible, concrete gains that have been made under the GFA that will "inexorably" lead to a United Ireland?
Julias
I suppose you could be right however all you have to do is look at the changes that were initially forced on unionism that are now accepted practice. Power sharing, an acceptance if not quite an understanding of equality. Countering the ingrained hatred that many Prods{and indeed some Catholics) have towards those who would be percieved as the "bogeyman" etc........
All small but crucial steps towards the inevitable in my view anyhow. Specifically though, I am not a Gypsy rose Lee, all I can predict for sure is that I am on a promise from my good lady tonight *whistles contentedly* However just imagine how the latest developments may have turned out(and may still) if the current mainstream Republican leadership had not jumped on it from a great height.
The latest is that Loyalists are re-assured by MMCG conduct, who knows how young Republicans may react should those bastards resort to their nasty merry ways. Though perhaps their Brit controllers may over-rule them as they have enough places in the world right now to fill the body bags of their young working classes.
Shane
SF are not my party, sure I have admired them at times, supported them even and of late lamented their impotence. They are the only show in town, and your lack of a cohesive alternative only hardens my view on that. I think we both share a frustration at the lack of progress.
"I suppose you could be right however all you have to do is look at the changes that were initially forced on unionism that are now accepted practice. Power sharing, an acceptance if not quite an understanding of equality."
"Power sharing" my arse. The DUP dominate the glorified county council that is the "Northern Ireland Assembly" and, since 2007, have had the Adams Faction firmly by the balls.
"The latest is that Loyalists are re-assured by MMCG conduct, who knows how young Republicans may react should those bastards resort to their nasty merry ways."
Oh yes, because the last thing we should ever do is upset the Loyalists...No surprise that they must be laughing their arses off at what passes for "Republicanism" these days in the form of Martin "everyone's a traitor but me" McGuinness.
"They are the only show in town"
Perhaps not any more. The sooner the Republican community gets wise to the treachery and selling-out of the Adams Faction, the better, then we can have a good house cleaning, and then after that maybe get on with pursuing Republican goals.
"your lack of a cohesive alternative only hardens my view on that"
Well, you have yet to show just what real progress (if any) has been made by the Adams Faction towards a United Ireland during the long life of the so-called "peace process".
Tony,
Specifically though, I am not a Gypsy rose Lee, all I can predict for sure is that I am on a promise from my good lady tonight *whistles contentedly* However just imagine how the latest developments may have turned out(and may still) if the current mainstream Republican leadership had not jumped on it from a great height.
Fuck.
Tony,
Specifically though, I am not a Gypsy rose Lee, all I can predict for sure is that I am on a promise from my good lady tonight *whistles contentedly* However just imagine how the latest developments may have turned out(and may still) if the current mainstream Republican leadership had not jumped on it from a great height.
LOL! Hilarious. I never did see you as a Gypsy rose Lee.
Fair comments, Tony. My request for the specific path was unreasonable. Ultimately my point is this: people who proffer that Irish unity is the inevitable outcome of this process are overly vague when quizzed on exactly why they believe this to be the case and up to now I've found their arguments unconvincing.
I'm not a Gypsy Rose Lee either but I see things sailing along pretty much as they are for the foreseeable future I have to say.
Although, as I've said, I'm open to persuasion if someone has a decent argument.
I was having a raging argument with an Irish West-Brit on one of the Iraqi blogs the other day about this issue. Such rabid anti-republicanism I hadn't witnessed for a long time.
At least most of us are on more or less the same side around here...
Though perhaps their Brit controllers may over-rule them as they have enough places in the world right now to fill the body bags of their young working classes
Very true.
will we hear 'republicans' singing in the pubs (they're good at that) about how poor constable or captain so and so was shot by 'irish traitors'.
sleepingpostie | 03.11.09 - 3:54 pm | #
Sleepingpostie, I've spent not a minute of my life worrying about what songs anyone sings in the pubs. Perhaps that's how I've kept my youthful glow through the years, we'll never know. Nonetheless, I am once again impressed by the things you choose to worry about.
I didn't know the slain man, Stephen Caroll. What I've read is that he answered a 999 call from a woman claiming to be a frightened mother in Lismore Manor -- Lismore Manor, mind -- who'd just had a brick thrown through a window. Carroll was backup and was shot through the back of the head while sitting in his car from a sniper at a distance by a .223 with a laser scope.
Is that a feat to sing of?
If innocent young men who could't have a political conversation to save their own lives are dragged through the system because they wore the wrong shirt and are mistaken for an experienced marksman, should songs be sung about that?
If a young family is genuinely under attack by a petrol bomb or whathaveyou in Lismore Manor next week or next summer and the police and fire don't respond in time to save the children's lives, suspecting an ambush, should a song be written about that?
Fuck me Chris, you're still at it. I always remember you as one of the stupidest people I ever slung drink at and now you're being quoted on the BBC website as a political commentator cum blogster.The sister was telling me that you are going for a lawyer to which I had no response- too shocked and amused and baffled to come up with a response. The deaths in Ireland over the last week are horrifying but the healing in that sceptic little pustule of a place will take much longer than a few brief years. Glad I'm away. All things considered though I'd like to send Cross Rangers my best wishes for Paddy's Day and the AI Club.
Seany Mac
Am I supposed to know you?
Well he did sling drink at ye Chris. Buys the man his two bob's worth 
Susan
As some of the posters have shown they are anti-SF, fair enough. Though it is increasingly obvious that they have no alternative to the present state of affairs. Perhaps age is a factor here, as no one in their right mind, especially Nationalists want to go back to the early nineties.
Tony, I myself think the leadership is on the on-ramp to the Irony Super-Motorway using words like "criminal' and "traitor."
But I think Adams was 100% correct when he said the point of the killing of the two soldiers -- and very nearly and deliberately the Domino's pizza delivery men -- was to bring the troops back to the street. The Massarrene barracks was scheduled to close. And if the police can't answer a call to someone claiming to be a frightened mother in Lismore Manor or elsewhere, who will be sent out?
I don't think the minds behind the murders -- and yes, I think there is a genuine strategy at work -- want troops and saracens for their own sake, but to deliberately antagonise and radicalize generations that have grown up in relative peace. I can't answer the question of "Who profits?' from a return to armed conflict. I mean that literally -- I don't know who profits. But "Who suffers?" and "Who will pay?" -- that I can guess well enough.
Did anyone notice if Nigel Dodds, senior DUP man in the absence of Robinson, attended the funeral mass in Banbridge today? I'm sure he was there along with Paisley Og and Mor, otherwise the media would have been outraged, wouldn't they?
Susan
Whit kin ah say, "we are singin fae the same hymn sheet".
Obs
Good observation must be where ye got yir name fae. Was that you on a Unionist lite the other day?
Hiya Tony
Haven't made a contribution in months, Tony. I still think arguing on a blogsite is like trying to teach a greyhound to make tea. Fun for a while but ultimately exasperating and not good for your mental wellbeing.
Decided to give it up, but I was watching the paint dry the other day and thought I would have a look at Balrog to see if anybody I knew was locked in cerebral combat with the bad guys and noticed somebody was posting under Observer on the previous thread and got annoyed. Irrational, but there you go.
Did anyone see McCann on Hearts and Minds last night? Thompson gave him a free hand because Tommy wasn't playing ball. Pure shite. No matter what happens, the media still regard Sinn Fein as the real enemy. Its only when that changes will I start to have doubts.
I see a few new names about the site. Chris' fame is spreading far and wide.
SNAP!
Yep my boredom with internet blogs matched yours and have hardly been on going months without even looking, though I did break my self imposed ban on commenting on that hate site over by a few times. Of course Julias was on hand to shout "Aha! thought you wouldn't comment here?" Anyhow now that my therapy has ended I'm back to normal. A bit like saying that I used to be a werewolf, but ah'm aw'right nooooooooooow! *howls at the moon*
Oh and unbelievably I got red carded by Mick over by for joking that Harry Flashman the fascist pretend Derrywan liked Ladyboys. Another guy got banned also after flashy subsequently accused me of racism and slurring his wife and the maw ae his weans, amongst other obsceneties. The guy(Phil) only questioned her word that the weans were flashy's. I e-mailed Mick pointing out the oversight, that while he had deleted tonnes of flashy's abusive responses to me he had left the accusations of racism. He done the right thing and deleted that also, but ignored me when I pointed out that I had been banned for making a joke, yet the other guy had posted reams of foul mouthed abuse.
Obviously the uppity Taig remained banned whilst the advocate of British imperialism lived on. Not the first time the site owners political impartiality has been questioned. Needless to say I've banned myself from there for a while, I can be a moody fucker when it suits me
Didn't see MCann at all hopefully some bright spark will post a link. As for Chris's fame spreading, Don't ye read the bog walls?
I think Slugger is a lost cause. Seems to attract a lot of unreconstructed unionist warmongers. Civilized debate appears to be an alien concept. Armchair slabbers, Tony.
Where have all the old worthy adversaries gone? Most of the arguments seem to be pitched at about the 12 year old level. Have they imposed some sort of IQ ceiling or something?
Tony/Obs
Thin Lizzy- The boys are back in town
tuff one fae ye t'day toeny,
Ireland vs Scotland at Murraymints..
Whose side are ye on boy??? !!!!
Ye wanna fight about it, there's plenty of room outside mon
Well... good to see both of you about anyway.
I still think arguing on a blogsite is like trying to teach a greyhound to make tea. Fun for a while but ultimately exasperating and not good for your mental wellbeing
You're right. I have a love/hate relationship with it. Right now I'm having to spend about ten hours a day at my computer so it's a break from my work. During the summer I'll hardly comment at all.
I think it's best when you're talking to people with whom you broadly agree. Then you can tease at little differences in a calm way. Commenting on ATW is pointless. I haven't done so in years. But yes, I do have a look now and then and have noticed your weakness for the place, Tony!
Slugger is shite. But why am I not surprised you got red-carded, Tony?
Which McCann was on Hearts and Minds? Not the ATW one, surely?
I just got banned from an American conservative blog, and all my comments deleted! Now that was a complete fuckin' waste of time.
Ah... Eamonn McCann.
Tony,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/epi...nds_12_03_2009/
julius
I've told jo that ya need to get back with your comrades in arms ( here ), and build up the base babe.
she won't listen and goes on singular unsupported attacks over at ATW that have no hope of success.
I can't get through to her man !!!
one of these days I'm gonna give her a good slap, dya know what I mean?
Thank you Chris. Good post.
Nice to see that your all still about.
I don't think I'll be contributing much, but I'll drop in now and again, just in case you need rescued
Percy
Scotland of course. the the wee fella was supporting Ireland.
Julias
You are just a rabble-rouser at heart. As for my weaknesses, I've noticed plenty more fools like us banging heads against brick walls pointing out the hypocrisy. Nothing changes, along with Percy still trying to be Vance's best pal
The wee fella has more sense than his da
lol tony
truth is though none of us are really getting anywhere over yonder; be it carrot and sticks, love the sinner hate the sin, sheer rage, whatever your method is.
I have this dream about being part of a team: "crack elite squad of internet assassins", fully trained to take out the bastardz.
The point being to work in tandem.
single efforts whilst laudable, could well be amplified through joined up thinking.
But then I was always a team-player, and that's reflected in the games/sports I play, which is always better when in a team.
How do you stop a runaway train full of ATW terrorists ( as violent in their hearts as any terrorist grouping )?
1)Go ahead 5 miles, lay explosives on the track, over a bridge..
2) Slow it down with buffers, then move in to make arrests/captures.
3)If they won't come quietly a gun battle ensues, but they're surrounded
This is what we have to figure out guys n dolls, and make the translation into practical mental steps and moves on the chessboard!
I've no doubt troll and waco will want to escape by helicopter, anyone good firing a sand-bag missile
Tony,
I've noticed plenty more fools like us banging heads against brick walls pointing out the hypocrisy
True. Whenever I look in on ATW there are some decent folk there who are just totally baffled and outraged at what they see! They'll soon realise rational argument is a fruitless exercise over there.
They were of course cheering on the Zionist scum during their most recent attack on Palestinian society.
I noticed that the esteemed Troll wished Israel to 'pound Gaza until the roads run red with blood' or something very close to that.
Lovely people!
Percy,
I have this dream about being part of a team: "crack elite squad of internet assassins", fully trained to take out the bastardz.
The Zionists have beat you to it. Goebbels would be beaming with pride.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spa...es/
1056648.html
interesting snippet julius, doesn't suprise, the zionists have been acting in concert together on youtube.
I'd like to think of our team as wearing combats over hippy clothes, for the duration of the operation , and when the war is over ( ATW is feeling guilty .. train is stopped) get the guitars out and start rolling.
Peace man!
We're the good guys, they're the baddies
love the fact you cite the BBC, probably the most British institution ever!!
sellout
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