Why will nobody in SF attend these meetings or become involved in active support for the Quinn family instead of continually attacking, for political reasons, individuals who do support the family?
Speaking of innuendo:
"(that wasn't the figure I received but that is beside the point). "
So, if the BBC figure is wrong, ring up and tell them. Email a few pictures. Otherwise we will just regard this snide comment as another increasingly desperate effort to play down these events.
Over 200 people are clearly disgusted with the "peace" that the Provos have brought them. They feel utterly betrayed. The "Brits" never did the like of this and you'll reap the whirlwind as a result.
I still find it amazing that despite the much-vaunted credentials of being "a south Armagh Republican and proud of it" that you have completely lost touch with the meaning of this murder for ordinary people in the area.
I think any future you might have had as a politician, never mind a solicitor, in this area is receding pretty quickly.
I know very little about the organiser of these events , from reading , theres no doubt that some were politically opposed to Sinn Fein prior to Paul Quinn. Its irrelevant really his mother and father and family are looking to highlight this case and keep focus on events. This murder was so so wrong , its pure cancer , infecting society with fear, paranoia and sickly death. I'm not saying Sinn Fein is culpable for this , I dont believe that , but at the same time its a problem a huge problem for them and it is theirs.
It's worth pointing out the very clear and unambiguous aims of the Quinn Support Group
http://www.quinnsupport.com/
quin...upportgroup.htm
We believe:
• That Paul Quinn was murdered by a paramilitary group operating within a local command structure, by the order of that command structure
• That he was murdered because he was deemed to have offended members of that paramilitary group
• That public safety in South Armagh is at risk while that command structure remains in existence.
We deplore:
• Attempts to vilify the character of Paul Quinn by suggesting that he had involvement in any criminal enterprise
• Attempts to deflect blame from the paramilitary group by suggesting that his murder was the work of smugglers or ordinary criminals
• Attempts to label people who have publicly expressed concerns about his murder as ‘enemies of the peace process’.
jo i agree with you - as sf representives they should have been
They deeply hurt paul's family and freinds by the things they said in the aftermath of paul's murder - if the ira were not involved why didn't they just state that and leave it at that. No instead they mounted an onslaught on Paul's character. But they couldn't stand up and face a large section of there community who had questions for them
it is there duty as representitives to attend such meetings and if they don't have the balls maybe they should rethink their ability to do their jobs.
in terms of the numbers who attended the meeting last night i can assure you there was well over 200 hundred there.
I will give you my opinion on the 3 questions you stated:
1 - the support group has asked for all those who have been intimitated, bullied or bullied to come forward with no restraint on time.
2 - the aim of the group is not political and it has never sought to unite anti republicans infact if you had attended the meeting you would know many republicans were present - just because you are anti provo / anti violence does not mean you are anti republican.
The aim is to firstly get justice for paul's murder and to help those past and present who have been intimidated, bullied or beaten in the area.
3 - i know at least a dozen who have recieved punishment beatings and who are not in any category you listed.
They simply do not abide by or show respect to the bullies living in the area who still use their power as current of ex ira menbers to bully and dominate. Thiose in the categories listed should be dealt with in the courts just as the quinns wish their son's murderers to be.
Paul's mother and the entire committee once again pleaded for no retaliation what more can they do?
The group is not 'winding up bullshit' - it an attempt to get justice for paul and to stop any further beatings/ murders bullshit? if so how?
The reality is that whatever the truth people across the whole country of Great Britain (which still includes NI) assume that the IRA are behind any beatings / murders in Republican areas, and there's a lot of evidence in the public domain to support that assumption as being reasonable. People across the country also generally assume that the SF leadership are still intimately connected to the IRA and continue to have the ability to direct IRA actions. Again, that assumption seems reasonable.
That gives SF a real political problem, even if the 2 assumptions are wrong. And from what I can see, they are not dealing with this problem effectively. They need to do more than simply say "it's not the IRA": they actually need to deliver some active proof of their intent to dispel this cancer.
And the same goes for the Loyalists, although they seem to keep their activities out of the national news.
"Why will nobody in SF attend these meetings or become involved in active support for the Quinn family"
I have already explained why Sinn Féin will have no involvement with this group. In relation to the Quinn family we have on four separate occasions offered to meet with them. As of yet no response has been forthcoming.
"Over 200 people are clearly disgusted with the "peace" that the Provos have brought them. They feel utterly betrayed. The "Brits" never did the like of this and you'll reap the whirlwind as a result. "
I thought this group was about achieving justice for the Quinn family??
BTW Jo save your "you'll reap the whirlwind as a result" for people prepared to indulge this class of delusional crap. You are not from the area, you don't know the area and unlike your good self Sinn Féin receive 84% electoral support in the area.
"I think any future you might have had as a politician, never mind a solicitor, in this area is receding pretty quickly"
Thanks Jo, I'll place your ill-informed opinion in the "howling at the moon" section of my advice book.
"if the ira were not involved why didn't they just state that and leave it at that."
Because McAllister and Co have tried to form a political campaign against Sinn Féin on this issue.
Why should we remain quiet, we represent South Armagh? 84% of the people voted for Sinn Féin. We will not be silenced by failed former Republicans.
"it is there duty as representitives to attend such meetings "
Don't talk such nonsense
continued....
"1 - the support group has asked for all those who have been intimitated, bullied or bullied to come forward with no restraint on time."
Now that isn't what I asked, is it?
I asked
1. Are Jim McAllister and Pat McNamee only concerned with punishment attacks that occurred after they left the movement or are they also concerned with attacks that occurred while they were members??
"2 - the aim of the group is not political and it has never sought to unite anti republicans infact if you had attended the meeting you would know many republicans were present - just because you are anti provo / anti violence does not mean you are anti republican."
Read through that again and see if you can see the clear contradictions.
"3 - i know at least a dozen who have recieved punishment beatings and who are not in any category you listed.
They simply do not abide by or show respect to the bullies living in the area who still use their power as current of ex ira menbers to bully and dominate."
That's a lie for a start, you do realise that unlike some of those you are speaking to that I am actually from the area. Spouting nonsense like that won't do your credibility any favours.
"The group is not 'winding up bullshit'
I didn't say the group was, I said "Jim and Co" were.
Please read the post before you respond in future.
how is it not the duty of local sf representitives to attend a public meeting in their area about the brutal murder of a member of their community???
how it is not their duty to personally meet the quinn family to offer support in their bid for justice?
how is it not their duty to show the proof they had that it was criminal gang and not ira who murdered paul? - they must explain they evidence they have based the claims which hurt his family by trying to destroy his character! +
tell me what is their duty as sf reps??
so basically sf can say for sure no ira were involved? how?
they never once approached the quinn family while 'talking to people on the ground' - to establish what threats paul recieved.
"how is it not the duty of local sf representitives to attend a public meeting in their area about the brutal murder of a member of their community???"
They have a duty to represent the people in the area. Now had McAllister and Co not been involved you would have had thousands at that meeting, does that not tell you something?
Our councillors do not have to attend any meeting which is set up by people like McAllister and Co.
"how it is not their duty to personally meet the quinn family to offer support in their bid for justice?"
We have offered on four separate occasions to meet with the family, they have yet to get back to us.
"how is it not their duty to show the proof they had that it was criminal gang and not ira who murdered paul?"
This isn't a court of law lady, it's up to the cops to investigate this case and to bring those involved to justice. From speaking to the IRA it was established that they were not involved, a conclusion agreed with by the Taoiseach Bertie Ahern.
"they must explain they evidence they have based the claims which hurt his family by trying to destroy his character!"
How do you work that out? There is a family in grief here and Sinn Féin are sensitive to that fact, I have no doubt as this case progresses more and more relevant information will make its way into the public domain.
"so basically sf can say for sure no ira were involved? how?"
From speaking to the IRA, from speaking to Republicans and from knowing what is going on and which other people operate in the area.
"they never once approached the quinn family while 'talking to people on the ground' - to establish what threats paul recieved."
We have our own information as to what was going on in that part of the country.
Mr Gaskin, the IRA and their apologists are murders. If it transpires that they were involved in this murder then it is time for the DUP (which is the party I support) to withdraw from government and for direct rule to be restored.
"the IRA and their apologists are murders"
I think you may want to rephrase that
''I think you may want to rephrase that''
No.
It doesn't make any sense, I presume English was the language you were aiming for and not Ulster-Scots?
Hannah, Chris is pointing out an error in your statement.
It should read..."..the IRA and their apologists are murderers"
Grammar aside, the statement is accurate.
chris i too live locally and i am not listening to 'nonsense' i have heard this from the people who have been beaten and intiminated by the bullies.
SF can not possibly fail the community by letting a greivance they have with a member of the committee to overshadow their duty to the quinn family to offer them support.
so anyone who supports the quinn campaign for justice will not be represented by sf as jim is involved in the group?
When were the quinn family asked to meet 4 whith sf? just wondering as it was stated at the meeting last nite that sf have never approached the family.
if sf where able to establish ' what was going on in that part of the country' how do they not have evidence to back up their claims of a criminal fued?
sf have not been sensitive to the grieving family - they tried their best to blacken paul's name and yet when publicly asked by the quinn familty to put evidence forward or revoke claims they chose to do neither.
local sf reps are letting down the community who put them in power - i doubt there will have 84% electoral support in the future if they can't even face the questions of the people who voted for them.
The fear for those who took on the mantle of policing their communities because they did not support the police and justice system is that as their structures weaken it leaves these people in peril.I'd say better to reach out within their own communities and be nice , be lawful as all the main parties in the country have directed and then people will not dislike these people so much when they have no structures at all to prop them up
The Bi-aura association is pants. We (I mean me but others are welcome to join as soon as their £500 cheque has cleared) at the TRI-aura association are the real experts on Auras and Aural related healing. We all have (and I mean me again) a nice framed colour certificate done in Photoshop) on the wall to prove it.
Consultations are £50 an hour but you can save money by buying a course of 10 for £450. I promise at least one of us won't be disappointed.
Chris, my comment at 3.34pm was for another Blogger blog. Delete it and this (or not) as you see fit.
#copy, close window, paste#
Don't forget it ain't that long since SF could find it in themselves to support policing and justice for the likes of victims like the Quinns.
What would the reaction have been if this killing had occurred in those not-so-long-ago days?
Hint: Think what offer was made to the McCartney's about the man/men who killed Robert.
..and Jo, 'tis me. Sent an email to your old bt9yahoo.
Hiyas TWR, yon yahoo email was reviewed and is rightly messed up at min...so sorry if I haven't responded 
Chris,
this just off the wires: Commenting on today’s BBC Good Morning Ulster interview with Conor Murphy MP in which he repeated an offer to meet the family, Stephen and Briege Quinn said:
“The first thing Conor Murphy must to is withdraw the false allegations of criminality that he made against our son Paul shortly after his murder, and then repeated on the BBC Spotlight programme of 13th November. When he has done that we can consider what useful purpose might be served by a meeting.”
That probably applies to your kind offer too. The attacks on McAllister are turning him into a minor celebrity which I don't think he deserves. But the family trusts him a great deal, so they don't really buy this 'we are supporting the Quinns but lashing McAllister' line, especially coming from the sort of citizens who peddled the gangster feud story until people all fell down laughing. Incidentally, why are we hearing nothing from Terry Hearty, Colman Burns, Anthony Flynn and Packie McDonald? Why is poor Conor left twisting in the wind alone? What happened to solidarity in the struggle?
I think that last post demonstrates the emptiness of the assertion that SF have extended 4 invites to meet with the family: in the midst of their bereavement, the family are hurt by what those extending the invite have put into the public domain regarding their son.
Its hardly any bloody wonder they haven't responded, is it?
yes and people close the people slieve mentions were the ones going round spreading the shite that he was a bad wee bastard.
so Chris you claim that were less that 200 people at the meeting ..
"(that wasn't the figure I received but that is beside the point)."
where you at it?
the figure you "received"???
had you sent someone to the meeting on you behalf?
are you someone that people report back to??
so how did you come by your figures of attendance?????
Lily
We have offered to meet the family on numerous occasions, we will not be having any involvement with a group that contains people like Jim McAllister.
It's that simple
The 4 invitations involved a very independent person, written letters and indeed in public.
lily I have heard this stuff about us losing support before and every time it has proved to be baseless.
“The first thing Conor Murphy must to is withdraw the false allegations of criminality that he made against our son Paul shortly after his murder, and then repeated on the BBC Spotlight programme of 13th November. When he has done that we can consider what useful purpose might be served by a meeting.”
That is their choice, however at least now this nonsense about us refusing to meet the family has been exposed as a lie.
We have offered to meet the family, if they choose not to accept that is up to themselves.
"That probably applies to your kind offer too"
What kind offer was that?
Bobbydylan
Is there something wrong with you? most of your posts are barely readable.
"so Chris you claim that were less that 200 people at the meeting .."
When did I claim that? You presume too much.
I was not at the meeting although I spoke to some of those who did attend. I did not send anyone to a meeting.
The family is being used by peopele who are anti SF, people is south armagh know who did this, there was no republican involvement!
aye. the family are pretty thick
thank god we have Sinn Fein to keep them right.
What purpose would there be to SF meeting with the family if SF denies any Republican involvement, other than a photo opportunity for SF. Surely they are not adding grief counseling to the things they claim to offer.
This all makes for the most incredibly depressing reading. Necessary, but depressing.
I cannot begin to tell you how much I respect this family, and the many locals and near-locals who are supporting them.
A lot of people really want this issue to go away. I get the feeling that's not going to happen. To those who support this family, I'm so proud to know you, even if its behind an internet pseudonym.
Now, enough with the mawkish sentiment. Let the long arm of justice reach wherever and whoever it needs to.
a candle has been lit, woe to anyone who tries to extinguish that flame.
Politics is subservient to Morality, and the sooner you get that chris, the sooner you'll stop digging.
Begin anew and end this foolishness.
"BBC report that 200 people turned up (that wasn't the figure I received but that is beside the point)."
Less than 200? , thats exactly what you said. No Need to persume
Although with regard to your "persume too much" comment maybe it was said in more of quip or with a wry smile. Were all smartarsed sometimes, no criticisims there.
Anyway it brings me to a sore I have with SF, sometimes you really do need to say what you mean.
That aside you probably were being a bit flipant , its a robust blog for f*cksake. Anyway just had to get that off my chest
still, 200 is more people than went to the first meeting of the DPP in West Belfast in the Beechmount Center.
around 150 attended
(according to the reports i received)
and even then, most of the people were from various agencies and SF cumann members who had been told to get to it. to make the numbers look good.
seems Gerry's PNSIUC are not as popular as he likes to make out.
so there, a little balance for Chris, when he smirks at a "poor" attendance in cullyhanna.
The people there were not just from Cullyhanna, how many exactly from Cullyhanna????
probably around the same amount that was at the Vol McVerry commemoration.
A number of counts were done at the Cullyhanna meeting by people at the request of the committee, but they didn't tally awfully well because there were an awful lot of media there, perhaps 30. There was a specific count of local people which got to 211 coming through the door. A number of people arrived later, but it is true that most of those were from elsewhere, notably Newry, Camlough and Dromintee plus Co. Monaghan. The account in today's Irish Times is very accurate of the mood and content. Many people noted the logical contortions Sinn Fein spokesmen are going through to hold the line, not to mention the physical contortions as they spout the lines while keeping a straight face and holding down their bile. The defence lines are collapsing one after another. Conor Murphy lied on Good Morning Ulster - neither Jim McAllister nor any member of the committee has publicly named or accused anyone and I offer the Chris Gaskin Perpetual Sick Trophy to anyone who can prove otherwise. Laird the gobshite got his names from Willie Frazer. Maybe the conspiracy theorists might like to elucidate a little further on the burning of the lorry near Creggan. Who parked it there and why? Who knew it was there? certainly not the landowner. Chris, the next meeting will be in Rangers Hall in Cross on Wednesday 12th December so you have nearly two weeks to prepare arguments to prove there was nobody there.
Why should SF have a problem with this statement from the supporters of the Quinns?
"let Sinn Féin continue in government, but let them tell the truth. Let us simply all agree that the killing was not sanctioned at any organisational level which should have political consequences at Stormont. Let us also agree that we have a murder machine in our community and it must be dismantled for ever."
indeed,
plenty of wriggle room there for SF to squirm out of and remedy their bullshit lies and hypocricy.
Hope they take it, and grow some balls.
On the matter itself re Truth and Justice.
There's a choice here for people's consciences, either:
Help smash the walls of silence, a brave and courageous choice.
Or keep those walls firmly in place, a cowardly and bully-boys choice.
There is no middle ground !
"it is true that most of those were from elsewhere"
As I thought
"Newry, Camlough and Dromintee"
Oh yes, that's right. That other former Sinn Féin member and malcontent Davy Hyland was there. Now I wonder who was there from my own part of the world, in fact I don't have to wonder at all.
"Why should SF have a problem with this statement from the supporters of the Quinns?"
How's this for starters
It accuses us of telling lies which is simply untrue.
Some people can't handle difficult truths, that isn't our fault though.
"plenty of wriggle room there for SF to squirm out of and remedy their bullshit lies and hypocricy."
I've had just enough of your bullshit, please tell me Parsifal where do you receive your information from in regards to this murder?
I was unaware that Brighton was a close parish to Cullyhanna.
Do you hear about the young fella in Cross last Sunday who got his shit knocked our just because he is a relation of Republicans.
Women being assulted by a known member of an anti-Sinn Féin family with close connections to McAllister and Co.
So parci, fuck up talking bullshit!!!
you seem a bit rattled chris?
I am sick and tired of people talking out of their arse on this issue. You haven't got a clue about what is happening on the ground yet you pontificate from afar.
yes only chris knows... he got the whole PSF P.r.o spin.
chris is like Our Lord, he is all knowing and all seeing.
I never said I was the only one to know what is going on, I however don't need to rely on dissidents like yourself for my information.
why do you call me a dissident?
have i ever expressed support for another grouping on this site??
a question for you chris.
would you have been on the pro- treaty side or would you have been an Irregular?
Only Newsnight, Spotlight, countless articles, interviews.
Who needs to be in cullyhanna, I can smell the bullshit from here.
Good Lord, if you could hear yourself chris, branding people dissidents and criminals, you're just like stalinists of old.
Your party's response to this savage murder is a TF joke.
And as more truth comes out, and serious questions asked; SF's position is unravelling faster than a speeding bullet.
I believe what the family are saying, don't you?
yeah and who is "co" that accompanies every reference chris makes to this story?
Lingusistic query:
What does "TF joke" mean?
Not one person has come out on this thread in favour of the way chris is interpreting and portraying the events unfolding in this tragic case.
I would suggest that's because they have more shame.
TF = total fucking.
Chris, quick question.
Are you libeling, slandering, or smearing McAllister? I don't know the law as well as you do.
Is innuendo, blackening, defaming all ok.
What would you have to say to overstep the line and make yourself liable to court action?
bobbydylan asks why call him a dissident?
Perhaps this gives us a clue:
"....seems Gerry's PNSIRUC....."
I think its clear that Jim McAllister is exploiting the grief of the Quinn family for his own political reasons.
Well perci
Let me be .
the first to back Chris up
No one knows what happened for sure except those that did the crime so for you useless bunch of whining mouth pieces to come on here and spout your bull shit hypocracies is the biggest joke of all
Do I think former members are involved? Almost definately but that raises 2 problems. 1 How does the PPIRA control former members? Please tell us as you are obviously all knowing and all seeing! 2 Are all organisations responsible for their former members? Cause the RUC/PSNI/RIR/Special Branch/FRU have a great deal of explaining to do if that is the case. I wont even mention the alphabet killers as they are too numerous. So parci et al, what is your divine inspiration for a solution?
Are current members of PIRA involved? Possibly, but since virtually every command and control structure short of the army council has been dismanted how does PIRA control the actions of members 24 hours a day? The only discipline left to PIRA is expulsion which only means they become exmembers, they dont go away you know!
So you brilliant gob shites, produce some evidence or produce some solutions or shut the fuck up and wait to see what the evidence does produce!
anon has a point. What exactly would Jim McAllister like done with the murders of Paul Quinn? A bit of rough justice like the good old days they so clearly want to go back to? It is for the police to deal with crimes such as this. They will compile the evidence and they will bring the people to book. That's exact;y how it should be. That is a situation which Jim McAllister opposes - he's against co-operation with the PSNI - does nobody here see the inherent contradiction of seeking justice for a dead loved one by appointing a man who opposes the institutions of justice (i.e. the police and courts) being worked with?
When people are grieving they are easy prey for people to exploit and that is exactly whats going on here.
ANON
was me , fuck I hate halo scan
Sean the Emerald Pimpernel
yet chris you avoided the second question in my last post.
so would you have been pro Treaty or Irregular?
anony we're not even at the stage where anything can happen whilst political cover is being given to the killers.
evidence.. with a forensically perfect crime, the only hope is to get people to talk; hence the campaign against the wall of silence.
This is very hard, due to intimidation of bully-boys and the crow-bar brigade.
But remember veronica guerrin?
She changed Ireland forever.
Hope this campaign will do the same, people are sick and tired and disgusted at having their sons maimed and murdered.
No divine plan, just brave "little people" standing up to a murder machine.
Grow a pair of balls.
Unionist I think its clear you're a sock-puppet.
sean,
if you've faith in this police investigation then you're an idiot.
The only people who can faciliate change are the people of South Armagh, those with balls, not SF lickspittles who are acting as whores, pimped as they are by their political masters.
There isn't a hope in hell of a united ireland whilst cowardly scum think they can get away with pre-meditated murder, and are given cover.
you can whinge all you like on Sluggers about themmuns, but it won't add to more than a long streak of piss, unless you're prepared to turn that mirror inwards.
All the best now
You would have made an excelent diplock judge parci
tried convicted and sentenced based on official here say
Sean
I hate haloscan also.
Anyone who types something longish should save a copy of what they write before they "Publish" it. More than once, I've had something just dissapear in an instant when I thought I was posting it.
sean really,
"tried convicted and sentenced based on official here say"
then excuted in a hayshed
Unionist probably is a sock puppet. Has he been seen around here before?
sean,
why don't you concern yourself with the obscenity that Paul Quinn did nothing wrong, and was murdered for standing up to bullies.
I believe they have a right to a fair trail, they didn't believe paul did!
That's the difference between right and wrong. Do you agree?
For those who have not seen it, an indication that
omerta may be breaking down in the face of community response.
and the cloak of fear shall be removed, and the people free from their oppressors.
No not the Brits, but the IRA.
No Perci we do not agree
He was not an innocent angel from the reports I have seen. He may not have been a big part of the smuggling racket but he was a participant. And he had a penchant for violence well beyond normal.
Did he deserve to die? No! Was a beating from someone inevitable? Based on his actions probably, did they go too far? Absolutely.
As for faith in the police? No I dont have much faith in the RUC after all it was just another dirty fenian. But they are all we have.
And no, he wasnt standing up to bullies he was being one.
Sean
Good man Sean.
"He was not an innocent angel from the reports I have seen"
so really you dont know.. is what you mean..
"Was a beating from someone inevitable? Based on his actions probably"
so kicking the fuck out of someone is ok, as long as you dont go too far??
well what constitutes too far??
black eye?
broken arm perhaps?
broken leg maybe?
left in a wheelchair ?
so all of the above in your eyes, sean, are an OK way to deal with "no angel"s
so long as you dont actually cause death and the inevitable embarassment to the RM, then punishment beatings are fine.
well i cant wait to live in your republic sean, sounds like a utopia.
and then we are left with classic closing... we have to put our faith in the PSNI. sean, you may trust the institution of british justice and law enforcement in this part of ireland.
but i for one sincerely doubt that the Garda or PSNI will be interested in finding the RA involved in this one.
neither government will want to see the stormont regime pulled down. not for the sake of some fucking "hood" from armagh.
Classic over reaction there bob
Where did I say it was okay?
I just acknowledged the reality that passes for justice in the vacuum between the IRA's withdrawl from public order and the PSNI's complete inability to police anything
-- i cant wait to live in your republic sean, sounds like a utopia.--
Oh man, that would be some god damned place. Two parts Cuba, one part Kosovo. No place I'd want to live in, or visit.
Oh man, that would be some god damned place. Two parts Cuba, one part Kosovo. No place I'd want to live in, or visit.
The Phantom | Homepage | 12.01.07 - 3:27 pm | #
you have a lot of faith in the Irish don't you
I have immense faith in the Irish. With Sinn Fein...not so much.
Oh my, where to start? This is going to be one long reply...
"why do you call me a dissident?"
Eh.... perhaps it has something to do with the fact that you are one.
"would you have been on the pro- treaty side or would you have been an Irregular?"
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, something men in those days didn't have the benefit of. I do know that I have a lot more respect for Collins than I do Dev.
"Only Newsnight, Spotlight, countless articles, interviews."
Oh and where do they get their information from? Jim McAllister and Co.
Is this the same “Newsnight, Spotlight, countless articles and interviews” that claimed that SF were involved in a spy ring at Stormont??
It later turned out that the so-called spy was a paid British spy and informer.
Now tell me parci, as you are quite obviously more informed about this incident than I. After all what would I know, I only live in the place.
What evidence has been presented that lays this murder at the foot of the IRA?
There is no evidence, not even circumstantial. That is a FACT!!
Yet you think you can pontificate as if you are full of knowledge, you know fuck all. You are evidence for the proposition that information and knowledge are not the same.
You aren't even a credible poster ffs, you flip flop from one day to the next. You claimed at one stage to be an IRA volunteer and then you turn anti-IRA. You show all the consistency of a fart in the wind.
I sometimes suspect that you are Father Neil Horan’s long lost cousin.
"yeah and who is "co" that accompanies every reference chris makes to this story?"
Pat McNamee and that nest of vipers who include the family connected to the murder of Oglach Keith Rodgers.
"I would suggest that's because they have more shame."
You have suggested numerous things over the years, most of which have been drug induced ramblings.
"Are you libeling, slandering, or smearing McAllister? I don't know the law as well as you do.
Is innuendo, blackening, defaming all ok.
What would you have to say to overstep the line and make yourself liable to court action?"
LOL, you are out of your league here moonchild. By all means contact the viper directly and see if he wishes to bring legal action against me, I would laugh the whole way to the High Court.
Phantom
There is no omerta in South Armagh because Republicans are the community, 84% of people in South Armagh vote Sinn Féin.
What support does McAlister and Co have? Their failed political agenda has been rejected at every turn.
He tried to attack us through Davy Hyland’s election campaign and he failed. This is just a new campaign for him, he has no interest in justice.
chris,
of course hindsight is 20/20. and i share your view of collins over dev. but i get the distict impression that you would have been on the pro-treaty free state side.
you leave this impression, that anyone who does not blindly follow the leadership of sinn fein are wrong.
and in someway not republican at all.
"i get the distict impression that you would have been on the pro-treaty free state side. "
I doubt it, I would never have supported the partition of the country.
"that anyone who does not blindly follow the leadership of sinn fein are wrong"
don't be silly
--There is no evidence, not even circumstantial.--
There is the troubling fact that Mr. Quinn himself told his mother that there had been incidents with IRA men, and that he had been threatened by IRA men.
That's not circumstantial evidence?
Well either the mother is a liar and/or this Quinn individual had managed to enrage both the IRA and the "real killers" i.e. the fuel smugglers etc. Does not add up, sir...
"And no, he wasnt standing up to bullies he was being one."
sean you're an arsehole for saying that.
Chris, I'll keep my powder dry!
but chris you do adopt a free stater attitude. you have defame those republicans who not share your views.
you throw around the words "malcontent, dissendents" like the free staters threw around the word "irregulars" for the republican back in those days.
"And no, he wasnt standing up to bullies he was being one."
sean you're an arsehole for saying that.
Chris, I'll keep my powder dry!
perci | 12.01.07 - 4:38 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Lol Dewi I am just going on the news reports
what would you call standing outside someones house in the dark and waiting till they arrived so you could leap out of the dark and strike with out warning? Sounds like a bully to me
Anon
Do elucidate
To strike a person with out warning or provecation is with out a doubt bullying in my book
perhaps you see it differently?
I am off for my afternoon siesta have fun Chris
Sean same as the anon above
No, tell me about the incident. Who did Quinn strike without any provocation?
How have you verified the truth of this account?
Mr Treanor confirmed that he had been involved in an altercation with Paul Quinn a month before he was murdered.
"I'd had words with one of his sisters at a taxi rank and when I returned home Paul appeared from nowhere and hit me," he said.
"However, the next day a guy who'd been with Paul came and apologised for what happened and as far as I was concerned the matter was closed.
as per http://www.nuzhound.com/articles..._Paul-
Quinn.php
Pull the other one about poor innocent Paul?
That's the statement of a man in the position that he now finds himself in.
Perhaps its entirely true, perhaps its entirely false, and perhaps its true in part.
Phantom
agreed about that statement, although allegationso f violence and involvmeent in criminality from Quinn have also surfaced in distinctly no-repulbican media (eg the UK independent).
I dont highlight this to try and excuse one of the most brutal murders I've heard about.
Just to say that there is an absolute malestrom of bullshit surrounding this story.
Do I, generally think that the Provos are bastards? yes?
DO I think they are the only bastards in South Armagh? no.
I love Davy Hyland and Bob Dylan and the Hat
you should check out Leonard Cohen too. "old Ceromony in new skin" is by far his best album.
if your serious about Bob Dylan, should get "blood on the Tracks" great album.
Jim has now completed his turn to the darkside. He is now going to champion the cause of drug dealers, scumbags and rapists pu nished at the peoples behest by the peoples police force. Jim are you going to represent people affected pre-ceasefire? Are you going to champion justice for the families of Speedy Fegan, Mickey Mooney, Bap Campbell, Gareth O Connpor and other unsavoury types?????
bobbydylan,
Blood on the Tracks is a classic. My personal favourite Dylan album is Desire though. That's one I'd bring to a desert island!
Highway 67 Revisited, Blonde on Blonde.... the list goes on. Legend.
Highway 61 of course!!!
I've yet to blog on this subject on Slugger. Partly because it is too murky at the moment.
I can see that SF is wary of political rivals getting involved with the victim's family and is plainly prepared to fire fight/nip it in the bud.
Jim's a politico, Sinn Fein's a political party. That much is a fair fight. And good luck to them both.
The family is a different matter.
And there is a pattern with past events. There's a certain callousness being shown to the family of the victim. It's a pattern that was first set publicly in the aftermath of the McCartney killing.
On that occasion Alex Maskey came out fairly quickly in that instance and blamed a knife culture. It turned out that, according a statement eventually made by the IRA that three of those involved were serving volunteers at the time.
In the immediate wake of this murder, Gerry Adams referred to accounts emerging from the family and others that Republicans were involved in Quinn's murder as 'tittle tattle'. He then suggested this was the result of a dispute between diesel smugglers. His source: a couple of phone calls to a few people in the area.
It is not a statement that should betraded on with with any confidence.
As to this situation, there are several levels to this. One relates to any future individual prosecutions. Apart from John Laird's use of parliamentary privilege, I've not heard anyone mention individuals. Nor should there be, at least not without serious proof, or at the very least a police charge.
The second rests on the issue highlighted in the letter above: i.e. public safety in the area. This is clearly a problem, and by your account not simply for Paul Quinn, his friends and family.
And then there is the political aspect of this. At the time of the McCartney murder I consistently cautioned SF activists on Slugger who were fairly gung ho and saying that the Westminster elections would not be affected.
In the event the party took Mallon's old with relative ease. But they missed their other targets by an Irish mile.
A good rally this March got them another net gain, but the election in the south was, by Chris's own searingly honest account a complete disaster.
Incidents like this, and more importantly, the party's vicious public reaction to it are messing with the party's brand. The association is no longer with radical politics but with a callous disregard for the lives of anyone who disagrees with them.
In truth, in the eyes of the wider Irish public, you are becoming the 'nasty party', an image that the party's behaviour in the face of public disasters like this does nothing to allay.
The only thing in your favour is that the nationalist opposition in Northern Ireland is a shambles.
To make an analogy with 'another place', the Tories looked like they could walk on water with British Labour in 80s and 90s and seemed to have dumped the 'nasty' tag when they got rid of Thatcher, until between Blac
Sorry, the last wee bit:
To make an analogy with 'another place', the Tories looked like they could walk on water with British Labour in 80s and 90s and seemed to have dumped the 'nasty' tag when they got rid of Thatcher, until between Black Wednesday and Tony Blair, between them, buried them.
The lesson, I would submit, is that brand corrosion happens over a long time, but it takes a decent opposition knock over any political project. So long as there is no effective opposition (and there is as yet no sign of one) you are safe enough in Northern Ireland. But you've already had a recent foretaste of what can happen from the south.
In the meantime, whomsoever is right or wrong, this stuff is both nasty and viscous. And just like tar, it sticks.
"the party's vicious public reaction to it are messing with the party's brand."
Too true - this website contains plenty of examples of this viciousness.
Moreover, site contributors - in demonstrating a level of arrogance inversely proportion to their knowledge of grammar - don't appear to realise the harm that they are doing.
It really has become, as Hannah indicated, a mirror image of a certain other site in tone, barbarity and foul language.
Jo:
"It really has become, as Hannah indicated, a mirror image of a certain other site in tone, barbarity and foul language".
Please elaborate ho!!!!!
You can not argue on one hand in favour of free speech then deride the site contributors when they exercise this right. That is hypocrisy in case you didn't know. This site is in no way simialr to Mc Cann or Vance. Could you please enlighten myself and Chris as to what 'harm' we are doing?????????
Guys
Occasional profanity, used once in a while, can be great for effect. Used all the time, it makes one seem like nasty and vulgar.
Ditto with the name-calling. Once in a while, it can make a point the way polite palaver never could. But when its part of every paragraph, then many will tune out or, mentally mark the speaker as being juvenile, an amateur, a professional angry young man, or still worse, an angry old man.
If the attempt is to enlighten and persuade, I'd lower the volume a bit. Personally, I'd start with getting rid of the use of the silly term "stoops", but hey who asked me?
yank
Here, here emmett.
The Phantom: Why should contributors refrain from using the term Stoops? It is a common term in their native South Aramagh area. Maybe contributors should stop using the terms Shinners and Provos too? What about the reference to the Blue Shirts/ Are you suggesting that the historical connotations behing this should be forgotten just to kow-tow to your politically correct desires? They are/ were known as Stoops because in the darkest days of the struggle they deserted their fellow country men and sided with the enemy at every oppurtunity they had. This was worse than merely being passive. They did stoop down low to try and achieve their objectives. Elements within the party were vehemently opposed to Humes attempts to engage SF in the political arena and take them in from political wilderness in the name of peace. Do you not consider this self interested act as stooping down low? Is it not a case of careers before peace?
What, then, is the political or historical justification for calling one of your posters/readers a "ho"?
Shinner is not really negative, and Provo is not negative in any respect.
"Stoop" is childish...yeah, I'm sure that the Sinn Fein supporters just love it.
Your reading of history may not be universal in the nationalist community.
How the hell are you going to unify the Irish population when you can't refer to even your fellow nationalists for a single time without using an epithet?
Again, as others have said, do you realize how petty and small this makes you look?
Jo
I saw that too. Maybe name-calling is all that some here can do. Amazing.
Sinn Fein should not be at the centre of this case, but they put themselves there for no discernible good reason. The immediate kneejerk defence of the Provisional IRA was ludicrous given the early, very strong circumstancial evidence and we all presumed it was to keep their DUP coalition sweet. But was it? The DUP are not stupid, they didn't buy that line for a minute. Robinson homed in on the level of sanction and distinction between corporate and non-corporate actions. Donaldson clearly buys the IMC line. So there was no political need to peddle the line and therefore no need for the whole nonsense about Paul's criminality which Chris Gaskin is so disgracefully retailing long after Conor Murphy has dropped it. The word coming back from sources close to SF councillors - who have notably not bought into that pernicious nonsense - is that Conor is in deep hock to Slab and simply has to spout this stuff about no republican involvement before knowing the facts. So has Gerry. It's part of the deal, in fact it is the deal. They may actually have gone away in Dublin and even in Belfast, but not in Cullyhanna or Ballybinaby. Talk in earlier contributions about structures being dismantled is nonsense. The point is not even whether current or former members did the killing, in either case they went through the Cully unit/Battalion command structure. Real dismantling is in my view even more important than putting someone behind bars for the murder. On the other hand, a half dozen people charged is probably the best form of dismantling.
Slieve Gullion:
Unless you are a meber of what you have termed "the Cully unit/Battalion command structure" you do not know for certain. You are merely speculating and trying to repackage old lies and rumours that have being doing the rounds since the murder. You have not produced one shred of evidence to substantiate any of your claims. You are going on a rumour about a fight with the son of a leading republican, which has yet to be substantiated. One of those named by Lord Liar, Vincent Treanor, has already outlined that he had a minor altercation with Paul Quinn.( In fact so brave and innocent was Paul Quinn that he waited in darkness for Treanor to return home before attacking him!!!). He has alreadt outlined that the issue was swiftly resolved the next day. He has provided accounts to the authorities about both his and his sons movements on the day Paul Quinn was murdered. Why therefore do some reptiles remain insistent that he is implicated in the murder? I think people like you are desperate for the IRA to be culpable. Its what people like you live for!
The Phantom:
Shinner is negative. Unionists use it negatively all the time. I do not know any member of SF who takes it offensively. My reading of history would not be accepted by the Stoops because like then they prefer now to bury their heads in the sand.
Slieve Gullion:
Unless you are a meber of what you have termed "the Cully unit/Battalion command structure" you do not know for certain. You are merely speculating and trying to repackage old lies and rumours that have being doing the rounds since the murder. You have not produced one shred of evidence to substantiate any of your claims. You are going on a rumour about a fight with the son of a leading republican, which has yet to be substantiated. One of those named by Lord Liar, Vincent Treanor, has already outlined that he had a minor altercation with Paul Quinn.( In fact so brave and innocent was Paul Quinn that he waited in darkness for Treanor to return home drunk before attacking him!!!). He has alreadt outlined that the issue was swiftly resolved the next day. He has provided accounts to the authorities about both his and his sons movements on the day Paul Quinn was murdered. Why therefore do some reptiles remain insistent that he is implicated in the murder? I think people like you are desperate for the IRA to be culpable. Its what people like you live for!
The Phantom:
Shinner is negative. Unionists use it negatively all the time. I do not know any member of SF who takes it inoffensively. My reading of history would not be accepted by the Stoops because like then they prefer now to bury their heads in the sand.
The first post was published by accident. The second is the correct version I intendede to publish!!!!!
--Shinner is negative. Unionists use it negatively all the time.--
Message received. I've never used it, and now I never will.
Now, maybe you can give up "stoops"? For a day or two?
Its not new years yet Phantom!!! I only make resolutions I have no intention of keeping at new years! Ask me again in a month or so!lol
Adelante.
considering that chris is not about.
how do you explain away gerry mc hugh's resignation from the party?
what wonderful excuses can you dream up there in Scumintee Towers to explain this one??
bOBBY dYLAN:
tHE FOLLOWING IS A STATEMENT FROM jOHN o dOWD mla ON THE MATTER:
"Obviously it disappointing that Gerry did not raise any of the issues he is claiming led to his resignation within the Assembly team prior to going public with his decision.
"Gerry has been a member of the party for a number of years and is well aware of our policies in relation to issues such as policing. Our Special Ard Fheis was held months before he allowed his name to go forward as a Sinn Féin candidate in the Assembly elections. It was on this basis that Gerry McHugh was elected.
"It is believed that many of the real reasons behind this decision relate to personal issues."
As I am not from the area and do not know about relations within the party at Stormont I suggest that if you have any further questions you e-mail John O Dowd or indeed Gerry Mc Hugh himself.
Bobby Dylan :The above post was posted by me.
Adelante, you are grasping at straws. The whole Vincent Treanor episode is beside the point. Through a very credible and innocent intermediary, Paul Quinn was issued with an exiling order from the Provisonal IRA. This is not a figment of anyone's imagination - the lad came home and told his father. He was, however, under the impression that breach of the order would get him 'a few slaps' to use his own euphemism. He got more than a few - but no one in or around the family believes the intention was to kill him. It was to leave him in a wheelchair, and I have to admit that if it had gone that way, Paul would soon be forgotten like McMahon and the Kellys and so many more. Sure, this is mainly speculation, but it's pretty sound speculation and beats your fairy story about no provo involvement by an Irish mile. The stupid abuse that you and Gaskin hurl all around you simply undermines the last shred of credibility left in the Sinn Fein position, or should I say the Conor Murphy position because the councillors are staying silent or sueing for a separate peace. The Provisional IRA have humiliated themselves and their political wing. And no matter how many votes you get, it doesn't give the right to cover up brutal murder. Someone will go down for this and he will sing like a canary. The murder machine will be dismantled.
I would think that it is not just the murder machine that must be dismantled. Its the punishment beating and intimidation machine that must be dismantled.
This fact that this "system", which is a screaming invitation to human rights abuses of every kind, has supporters on this site, is troubling.
You can make the case that there was a need for this during a period of armed conflict. If the government/police were seen as biased and not to be trusted, then someone had to step into the breach- so goes the argument.
But now, if there is meant to be a peace, if an imperfect one, then no party who is in that imperfect but hopefully improving, government, can make the case that there needs to be a government within a government, or a justice system that is parallel to the goverment, esp one that has different and much harsher rules, one that is arbitrary and accountable to no one.
That rule-by-chieftain system cannot stand in the Ireland or Europe of today. Those who seek to defend it should do so openly--but any party that seeks to do so is sewing the seeds of its own ultimate destruction at the hands of the voters.
Slieve Gullion:
I am not grasping at straws. At least my argument has a sense of consistency.
Yet again yesterday more contradictory claims about the murder emerged. It was claimed yesterday that Paul Quinn was killed by the IRA Internal Security aka the nutting squad, which included "convicted terrorists (sic)... all senior IRA men in South Armagh". Didn't Mc Alister make a claim that it was carried out by young recruits who went too far??? How can you be an ex-prisoner and senior IRA volunteer on one hand, and a new recruit on the other????
Furthermore Mc Alister claimed that Paul Quinn was killed as a result of an altercation with the son of a leading republican. Then we were told it was actually retribution for hitting a leading republican. However it was claimed yesterday that he was killed for leading an anti-social element of around a dozen youths who were causing mischief in the area and were taunting local republicans in an agressive manner. Which reason was it Slieve Gullion?????
Furthermore reports at the time placed twelve masked and armed men in the barn. However this was then increased to15. However we were later told it was anywhere between 8 and 15. How can you mistake 8 men for 15??? Yesterday it was claimed that there were only 6 attackers
!!!! Some consistency please!!!!!
If people are going to wrongly blame republicans they should at least make up lies and stick to it. Changing the story every two minutes just exposes it for the piffel and bullshit that it is. Furthermore everyone knows why the Kellys were knee capped. They were hardly pillars of the society?????
PS. Do you think it was commendable, brave, courageousor indeed acceptable for Paul Quinn to hide in the darkness out side Vincent Treanors house and then assualt him without warning when he is drunk and getting out of a taxi? Is it acceptble in your books to assulat a drunken 58 year old??? Perhaps this is a measure of the type of person Paul Quinn was???? Nobody gets dealt such a brutal and bloody death over fist a cuffs. There is obviously much more than those close to Quinn are revealing. However that in no way excuses, justifies or condones this brutal murder!!!!!
Adelante, take a deep breath and get a grip on yourself. Piece in Daily Star by guy called O'Toole - known facts on the ground mentioned by McAllister - where exactly did your bewilderment set in? What exactly are you trying to do here? Is is your intention to defend and support murder by crowbar or do you just give that impression by accident? You may fancy yourself as the famous defence attorney knocking holes in the prosecution case but you are in fact ludicrous. There are no real contradictions here apart perhaps from the overblown rhetoric of the Daily Star. it does indeed look as if Paul was the first on a list of young men scheduled for kickings. There could be some truth in all the reasons you list - no one excludes the others. Neither McAllister nor anyone in the Support Group has named names, he has already got the BBC to back down on that one so you might consider covering your tender arse on this one. I have no idea about Vincent Treanor's involvement except what he told the Irish News and he didn't mention taxis or being drunk. So Paul dissed the strutting brigadiers and their relatives. Even if you are right about Paul hitting a drunk man, is that now a capital offence? If it is, you might at least like to consider some more humane form of execution because this one came somewhere between stoning and crucifixion. And this you want to defend? You actually take the side of the crowbar brigade and further slander a brutally murdered young lad? What the hell does it matter how many there were? There were enough to break every significant bone in his body, every one. What is it with you? How do you live with yourself? Do you get some sort of kick out of this? Do you wish you had been there with a two-foot nail bar? Look back over what you have written, really look at it. What is your cause? Do you imagine you are a follower of Pearse and Connolly and Tone? Then why are you peddling hate?
--However that in no way excuses, justifies or condones this brutal murder!!!!!--
--Perhaps this is a measure of the type of person Paul Quinn was????--
One of these sentences does not belong. And I hope that the other is sincerely felt.
And the account of the assault is uncorroborated to the best of my knowledge, from someone in the position that he finds himself in today.
Slieve Gullion:
I didn't say Jim named names, but he did say that Paul Quinn was murdered because of two specific incidents, so whats your point here. Furthermore I am not supporting the crow bar brigade, I already said that the murder was inexcusable so how do you equate castigation with support?
I did not say nor infer that the number of assailaints made that attack any less horrendous nor did I say it justified it. I was using this as an example of the blatant inconsistency in the claims doing the mills.
Furthermore you can not cherry pick the media claims that you like i.e. "it does indeed look as if Paul was the first on a list of young men scheduled for kickings" and ignore or deride those you don't i.e."I have no idea about Vincent Treanor's involvement except what he told the Irish News " The word hypocrisy springs to mind!
Btw my intention is not to defend either side in this heinous epsode, but rather to highlight the absurdity and contradictory nature of many of the claims being leveled at republicans. You argue that it is not correct to slander a dead man. I do not disagree, there are media accounts of Paul Quinn hitting Vincent Treanor when he was drunk, you just do not wish to refer to them but you have no problem refering to them when you are leveling accusations against republicans. Does the fact that the republican movement is not dead permit you to slander them? In particaular your slander of an elected rep who obtained 21,000 votes in a democratic election?? One may well ask that as my intentions are clear, what exactly are your intentions??????
Slieve Gullion:
"So Paul dissed the strutting brigadiers and their relatives."
If media reports are accurate and that Paul stood up to a prominent republican over a run in with his sister, this leaves you in a very precarious position Slieve Gullion. Are you suggesting that Paul Quinn was the only person with the right to defend their relatives? Im not saying that this in any way, shape or form justifies this brutal deed nor does it exonerate the sub-human aniumals involved, but I merely want to further expose your insane contradictions, which you keep peddling to serve your anti-SF agenda. Btw you still have not told me what your agenda is, despite me asking you on several occasins to divulge it.
from Los Angeles Times
LOL Phantom
Any body that quotes Willy Fraser loses all forms of credibility
Especially as everything willie said is wrong
Hmm
I keep asking which are the reliable media sources. But noone answers the question.
The murder of Paul Quinn was a brutal heinous crime almost certainly carried out by members of south Armagh IRA sanctioned at a local level,these men bring shame on the many decent volunteers who proudly served their country and fought for its freedom from British tyranny.The problem with these people is that their loyalty is to an organization and their own inflated egos not to the Republic,they should be ostracized from the republican family and the communities they live in.Its time the I.R.A. cleaned house and having party hacks like Chris and Adelante blindly following the party line only serves the enemies of the republic who have always tried to label us criminals.The I.R.A.has always admitted to its mistakes and the criminal actions of these volunteers should be no different,if the price for political gain is the integrity of our cause then i as loyal republican say the price is too high.
Phantom
Willie Frazer????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????
Holy fuck! You may as well go out and ask the cows if the sky is blue for their silence will be more of a truth than you will ever get out of Frazer.
"It was the fact they gave this boy who was an up-and-coming republican"
That isn't a fact, it's a fucking lie!
Jesus of Nazereth, King of the Jews
Save me from Frazer, King of the Few
Firstly "Anonymous", what would a Belfast man/woman/beast like yourself know about South Armagh???
"almost certainly carried out by members of south Armagh IRA"
Any evidence for that claim? Bearing in mind that the phrase "almost certainly" is the same evidental burden as "beyond resonable doubt".
This should be interesting!
"sanctioned at a local level"
Any evidence for that claim?
I am not a party hack!!
"The I.R.A.has always admitted to its mistakes"
Indeed however it has nothing to admit to here, hence the lack of admission.
I wasn't saying anything about the veracity of the article one way or the other...I only thought it interesting that it was covered by a Los Angeles paper, etc.
''Jesus of Nazereth, King of the Jews
Save me from Frazer, King of the Few''
Blasphemy! Is your arguement that weak Mr Gaskin??
At least Willie tells the truth unlike Gerry Adams.
Hanah
It's my take on an old South Armagh phrase, the original was
Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews
Save us from Johnston, King of the Fews
That kind of clever poem just doesn't happen here. Its been long replaced by the work product of the media in slick advertisements.
Similarly, you never hear singing at sporting events. Even cheering is channeled via a screaming PA system. They tell you what to say in some examples (the NY Mets baseball team invented a cheer for their shortstop based on the Ole/Ole/Ole song that you hear at European soccer football matches.)The fans did not invent the cheer, the suits did.
I hope that Ireland and Europe retain their spontaneous political and sporting expression longer than the Americans seem to have.
Hannah
Give the religion a rest
and
Willie Fraser wouldnt know the truth if it ran up and bit him on the ass
Sean
Hanah
Did Willie Frazer tell the truth about Robert McConnell?
Did he tell the truth about his father and uncle's involvement in the UDR and UVF under the guise of the Glenanne Gang?
Has he told the truth about his own involvement with Unionist death squads???
And why was he refused a gun licence?!!
I see he proposes to give "fair and balanced" tours of South Armagh in an old British Army tank. Albeit that the tank is no longer armed, should a man refused a gun licence be allowed to command a tank?!! 
Nutjob.
--I see he proposes to give "fair and balanced" tours of South Armagh in an old British Army tank.--
Really?
Yes!
I can't find the link at the mo. Chris, can you assist?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m...h?
v=mH2w5tP5nXI
Gotta give the guy credit for having brass balls, if for no other reason
Oh yes Phantom, it takes a lot of balls to drive around Cross in a tank, a fucking tank!
However I have the dubious honour of being the only Irishman, or indeed man of any nationality, to drive around Cross on the back of an army tank with full applause from the local square.
If willie fraser had any real balls he would go around to the local and spout his theory about how there were no catholic victims in the troubles as they only got what they deserved
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