What do you have to say for yourself ?
Wow, unbelievable! Caught! Can't backpeddle fast enough on this one!!! One thing is for sure. Fr. Tran has no trouble lying, and Fr. Fenton from the diocese just nods his head. "yeah, it's a mortal sin, we back Fr. Tran!" Then, "yeah, it isn't a mortal sin, we back Fr. Tran!"
'liturgical practices of the Church as approved by the Pope'--no matter how reluctantly approved!
I'll probably get an earful from someone about 'obedience', but I'd also like to remind the bishops and clergy out there who feel it necessary to assert their authority to the nth degree in matters which are truly victimless but where the normally obedient faithful simply can't bring themselves to 'obey': He who will be greatest among you must be the servant of all.
These letters from Father Tran are hilarious, or they would be if only....Someone sensible and with authority needs to intervene here. If there is such a person.
Fr. Tran seems very smug in his letters.
Hmmmm.
Seems that someone has a little problem with his ego.
Maybe Fr Tran needs a nice, long vacation in a quiet monastic setting.
Say, 10 to 12 years.
Dean, Father tran and the diocese never said kneeling was a mortal sin. Keep in mind you are dealing with the scumbag american secular press. I took some heat over the whole affair from other people on this site but I was still in the right (or at least ninety something percent right). When a teenager called dim bulb makes adults look stupid maybe the so called 'orthodox' adults should look at their own understanding of Catholicism instead of going off half cocked.
I'm not claiming to know a lot about liturgical practices. In fact, when I saw Mister Augustinus' last post on the subject I went to a trusted source; catholic.com for info. The LA Times butchered the story, Father Tran, who clearly needs some patience, is not in the wrong as far asa kneeling after the Agnus Dei is concerned.
Again, I'm not the smartest guy in the world but, Jimmy Akin of Catholic Answers is no dummy. his take on the mess can be read here:
http://www.jimmyakin.org/2006/
05...ly_absolut.html
Dim Bulb,
If you have any hope of growing brighter, you will look before you blog. Read the letter posted which was written by the older coupleto Rome. They are tormented because Fr. Tran told them to their faces that they are in mortal son if they kneel.
I am just the messenger. People may draw conclusions one way or the other.
Do Fr. Tran and Bishop Brown follow the rubrics of the Missal themselves? Does Tran genuflect after he confects the Body of Christ and after the Blood of Christ? Does he genuflect, as required by the Missal before he communicates? Does he wear the liturgical vestments in the manner required?
Bishop Brown is a first class ass, remember him nailing his thesis to the door of his Cathedral a'la Martin Luther. How about grabbing and pulling a woman up from kneeling to receive Communion? Does anybody think he would ever push down the head of a fellow progressive who did not bow before receiving the most Holy Sacrament?
This is about a whole lot more than kneeling and standing. Tod Brown and his toadies like Tran have shown little obedience to the Holy See. They are hypocritical creeps. We need to pray for them but not follow them. Some of the posters on these Tran threads have pointed out the obedience due the Bishop, and they are right as long as the directives are legitimate.
I suggest the faithful parishoners continue to document this and contact the St. Joseph Foundation in Texas and forward info to Rome. Give the Holy See a chance and if they don't get any response call Steve Brady of RCF and chances are he will expose Brown and Co. for the disordered pervs that they might very well be.
I meant mortal sin, not son.
standing at the Consecration
Question from on 05-29-2006:
A bishop in a diocese of the USA says that the people must stand at the Consecration. They are told that it is a mortal sin not to follow the Bishop's decree. Is this true?
Answer by Rev. Mark J. Gantley, JCL on 05-31-2006:
No, this is not correct. In fact, unless impeded for some reason (e.g., a lack of space), the faithful are required to kneel.
I submitted a comment in regards to this.. curious what his response will be now.
Gerald,
Crackdown on abortion? in the Diocese of Orange? Ha! Quite the contrary. Loretta Sanchez, an openly pro-abortion politician was treated to applause when her presence was announced at a Catholic highschool Mass with Bishop Tod Brown present. Oh, and worst of all, she received Communion. All those highschool students scandalized. And little old ladies who have been devoted to beautifying the Sanctuary are dismissed for kneeling!
Remember that the devil rejoices in arguments, everyone. Calling Bishops, no matter how wrong, "first-class-asses" is an extreme we don't need to approach. It's also important to get our facts straight: Dim Bulb doesn't seem to have read what Jimmy Akin actually said before he posted the link here.
There's a lot of confusion and a lot of backpeddling happening on every front here. Insulting Father Tran's poor English is spurious to the debate, and uncharitable. It is also a bit unfair, when no one notes that the older couple declare themselves in their letter to be "beseiging" the Apostolic Nuncio.
I make these observations notwithstanding the fact that I think Bishop Brown is wrong. I also think that Father Tran is being far from pastoral. But let us not go about picking splinters from their eyes with the beam of uncharitable speech obstructing our own clear sense. In all things, charity. And humility, too, for all of us who purport to love kneeling so much.
The "good guys" will win this fight. But let's not give the good side of the argument an ugly face in the meantime...
The part about this whole sad story that confuses me is why are people kneeling after the agnus dei? I have never known people to kneel at this part at any Mass I have been to.
Why does this Bishop not allow someone to kneel, if they are compelled to? I would think that the Bishops should want Catholics to get down on bended knee, as much as possible after paying millions of dollars for the scandals. This is another scandal for the Diocese of Orange. Pray for Bishop Brown? Does anyone know where he was a Bishop before he came here? Maybe we should find out how he did there.
Jim: Kneeling after the Agnus Dei is the norm in the US. Granted the diocesan bishop may change it, BUT the people still have the right to kneel if compelled by conscience to do so. Go to this site and you'll see: http://www.ewtn.com/expert/
answe...lamb_of_god.htm
Gerald: Can't help but smirk at this statement in the OC diocese statement: "The bulliten article ... was about respect for the liturgical practices of the Church as approved by the Pope."
So ironic given the liturgical practice of kneeling as approved by the Pope.
Jim, you must be a member of St. Simon and Jude in Huntington Beach a few miles From St.Marys by the Sea, perhaps you been raised by 'Call to Action" parents I don't know I am 37 years old, a post vatican II baby live in The Los Angeles Diocese all my life. I always remember and do, kneeling after The Agnus Dei. It was until about two years ago that Cardinal Mahony got a wild hair up you know what and forced all his priests to promote this " so called directive of not kneeling after the Agnus Dei" and even promote not kneeling for the entire Eucharistic prayer including the Concecration , which I witnessed in my former parish. I clearly see Cardinal Mahony and Bishop Brown have an agenda of destroying the Catholic Faith through the destruction of The Holy Mass. Look what goes on at Cardinal Roger Mahonys Religious Education Congress every year. Gerald post up those previous pictures of The Congress! Oh Joey G. please ass, like it is such a bad word used in its proper context . St. Nicholas punched out Arius the Heretic and got thrown in jail for it, but Our Lord appeared to St. Nicholas and gave him back his robe and staff! People are rightfuly angered by the actions of Bishop Tod Brown and Fr. Tran, who is not some " backward peasant" and I mean no offence to peasants. He is very well educated , but looks like his education got the best of him and he has made himself look like an imbecile by Bishop Brown and staff members deceptive "directives" and statements. Charity you say! This is Charity, by standing up against false teachings. Humble, Catholics who kneel humble themselves ,they know they are not God, they choose out of their love and obedience to reverence and adore God , Whom, at The Agnus Dei , is lifted up by the priest, Jesus Christ, Himself , is right there and we fall to our knees. Satan has no knees, the men who promote not to kneel are puppets of satan!! Beware! for they come dressed like sheep, but are wolves, ready to destroy you!
It is interesting that the one who refers to St Nicholas at Nicea (a story which may or may not be true), says that anyone who opposes kneeling is of Satan. Nicea opposed kneeling! St Nicholas might punch you out, too... since you called Nicea Satanic.
I don't live in California at all and I have never even heard of "Call to action". I do belong to what I think is a fairly conservative Novus Ordo parish.
Maybe you or someone else can explain to me the kneeling after the Agnus Dei. In every Mass I have ever been to the congregation goes to receive communion after the Agnus Dei. That would be difficult to do if everyone were kneeling.
@Jim:
The kneeling starts at the "See the Lamb of God!" and ends after the "Lord I'm not worthy..." or shortly before going to Communion. I don't suppose you usually jump up right after the Agnus Dei and run to the altar to receive Communion... 
Thanks, that is more clear for me (it may be the end of my 12 hour shift that is making me thick headed).
@Henry,
I would like to see that refererence to the Council of Nicea opposing kneeling, if you don't mind.
I simply don't trust a grown man (Fr. Tran) who uses that many exclamation points in a single letter!!! It reminds me of my eight year old daughter writing a note to her friends!!! [By the way, I'm kidding...sort of!!!].
Haha some funny posts I must say.. I was in the diocese of Raleigh that also has this norm of not kneeling after the Agnus Dei (maybe Mohoney, Brown, Gossman, and any others got together on this one hmmm) Anyways, some laity here sent a letter to Rome about it and the Nuncio sent a letter to the Bishop asking "Surely you are not forbidding the people to kneel?" In other words the Bishop can make standing the normative posture and ask that people keep the norm, but he cannot forbid them from kneeling if they desire. Just pump off some letters to Arinze, CC the Nunico and Brown will get a nice letter from them in return.
Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after having individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, to forbid this practice?
Responsum: Negative, et ad mentem. The mens is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of the Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.
A point of clarification is in order, since this statement from the CDW is getting circulation this week. While the "holding" in the responsum addresses kneeling after Communion, the rationale would seem to encompass other situations within the Mass, i.e., after the Agnus Dei. If this subject goes before the CDW, I can't imagine a ruling different from the one above issued by Cardinal Arinze in 2003.
Well for my money, I am very glad that those "altar boys" (Can I say those words?) have been dismissed. They look very suspicious to me.
" . . . I decided to terminate you . . ." "And you are not welcome in the sacristy or the sanctuary . . ."
And this was signed "Your brother in Christ?"
Rich, I'm not sure that the two situations are comparable. The time after Communion seems to me to be more of a time of private prayer (the GIRM allows that) rather than a public, common moment such as the common prayer "Lord I am not worthy..." It seems to me that the commonality of posture would matter more before Communion than after.
It's not too difficult to find this fact out about standing from Nicea. When one learns about the way liturgical changes occured in the West, one learns one of the Western innovations was kneeling. Nothing wrong with it, it has its place, but the other, longer-standing (pun not intended) tradition is not going to be "Satanic." In fact, it is still enforced in the East and many in the East point out Nicea as a way to point out the "abuse" in the West similar to how people talk about it being "abuse" not to kneel, neither side getting the point.
http://faculty.cua.edu/penningto...0-
Epilogue.html
That is where you can read Canon 20 of Nicea. You can find it at other places as well.
JoeyG:
I think most of us here understood that the elderly Mr. and Mrs. Carmody meant "beseech" not "besiege".
Lack of charity toward Fr. Tran regarding his clumsy English (and cultural "tin ear") is inexcusable. However, his letters and statements were certainly not models of charity. I don't see how you can say the same about the Carmodys' letter.
Uh-oh, Henry's back.
In case you want to examine the Greek, you can also look here:
http://srocco.org/Liturgies/
Nice...ceaStanding.dsp
Kathy,
The rationale of the responsum mentions "various parts of the celebration of the Holy Mass."
One must read the exact question: is it the intention of the new Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, to forbid this practice of kneeling? The answer is obviously no, it is not forbidding the practice of kneeling. It is not making it a requirement. It has left the decision up to each individual Bishop. Thus the answer is correct but does not say what people seem to make it out to mean.
Now the question which has not been asked, and should be: can Bishops forbid kneeling?
This continues with the problem I mentioned before: many people do not know how to read, and they really read into a decree something which was not even asked!
Roger "Glass Pitcher" Mahony...thankfully Bishop Brom of San Diego didn't follow his lead...
Thanks, Rich, you're right about the law. But there is a nuance to be considered about the appropriateness of individualization of postures during the various parts of the Mass. During some parts, especially after Communion, it seems more appropriate to waive the intention expressed in the last part of GIRM 42, because that is a private, not communal moment of the Eucharistic celebration:
A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.
At other times it seems much less appropriate, such as when we are saying something together. (My bigger beef with differences of posture has to do with those during the Our Father.)
zie hammer,
so when i go to kitty hawk on vacation this summer will i be able to kneel?
I wonder whether Bishop Brown cracks down on hand-holders
Or the "orans" crowd.
I've been following the posts here and in the previous article, and I've still yet to get a clear answer to the question: Where in Scripture (remember the Book that what we're supposed to base everything on?), does all this play out? Our Lord was >at table< with his disciples. That's the only mention of the Eucharist in the whole of the Gospels. The Apostle Paul made mention of how to behave ("eat before arriving, and do not be drunk"); other than that - NADA.
I'm not trying to say that we shouldn't kneel (heaven knows, I prefer it myself); but aren't we perhaps making an >idol< out of the Liturgy (definition: "Work of the People"), instead of letting the Liturgy guide us into deeper Worship?
Op3, if I were accusing someone of idolatry I would make a point of being much clearer than that. Who and what is making an idol out of the liturgy, and how?
(By the way, I think your Bible is not complete if that is all you see about the Liturgy in it.)
I was not accusing *anybody*. I was merely wondering if we were taking something incredibly precious (the Eucharist), and making the actions and rules about who-what-when the focus instead of the simple beauty of worship to Our Lord.
I think my KJV/NEB is complete, last I read it...
Regards.
Cordelia:
I attended Mass at St. Mary's By the Sea in Hatteras (Buxton), which is south of Kitty Hawk but I am assuming in the same diocese. It seemed the regular parishioners stood, but my friend and I and a few other kneeled, and it didn't seem to be a problem.
Op3,
if liturgy is to be understood as "The Work of the People" (which translation, by the way, I have it on good authority is a weak rendering of the word's meaning), then our postures and gestures as a community matter greatly. Since Christ is Incarnate, kneeling CAN and DOES matter. It is perfectly understandable why people are getting upset over this issue: they're good Catholics, and not Manichaeans.
Your questions brings back home a point which has somehow been pushed to the side in this debate. The argument has centered around the question of kneeling at a particular time, and what liturgical rules apply. But does anyone remember the initial statement out of the Diocese of Orange? The one that made reference to "our dignity as human beings?" It seems that there's a fundamental, theological problem at work out there which is forming the basis for liturgical principle. I'm surprised that more people haven't taken issue with this, which seems to be at the heart of the matter.
man with black hat: Straight up, no chaser... and no bull!
"I would share with my readers a little story about what obedience is NOT.
"A young priest was called into his bishop's office. It seems he was preaching on a topic of some controversy, the continuation of which would have been the source of embarrassment by the prelate, who used this occasion to direct the priest to stop..."
Op3...You have just been charitably schooled by Joey G. Joey, great response, I couldn't agree more! That statement was very telltale and troubling. It certainly could be a poster example of what Pope Benedict is not pleased with in "The Spirit of the Liturgy"! Joey, I hope you can tell that Op3, has been formed with nuanced and complex theology! Your logical remark is like water in the desert of Op3!
It looks like that handsome black hat has imparted great wisdom on David L. Alexanders Homepage post. David...Could you loan that hat to Bishop Tod Brown and Op3 for a while?
Straight Up, No Chaser David Alexander is right on the money! God Bless Him!!!
I too was read the riot act by a new goofy pastor way back in 1989 for my refusal --as an 8th grade altar boy--to not genuflect and not kneel at the consecration of the Mass. This is the way we were trained and instead of getting kicked out, I resigned.
As I have always maintained, scratch a liberal find a fascist.
Since Christ is Incarnate, kneeling CAN and DOES matter. It is perfectly understandable why people are getting upset over this issue: they're good Catholics, and not Manichaeans.
So are you implying that those who would stand or sit are not good Catholics? Interesting that Cardinal Arinze in his oft quoted statement says that those wishing to kneel or sit should be free to do so. Thus the Church does not recognize people who stand or sit as evil incarnate. Funny how so many people who comment here do
To Joey & "Pray". First of all, I *NEVER* said that kneeling was un-important. My point was (if I can put this clearly enough) that it is the *ATTITUDE* in our hearts that is supposed to determine our mode of worship - not the threats of being kicked out of church because you won't play "Simon Says." Remember Jesus' words - "They that worship must worship in SPIRIT AND TRUTH". He also had a lot to say about the Pharisees and their rituals.
Simply put: Are we worshipping or following a dead ritual? In my case, I prefer to worship.
And to "Pray" - kindly keep me away from the likes of Bp Brown.
Sincerely.
Rosary Daily:
No, but I have a matching set of boots. I'm sure I could loan one to His Lordship. I know exactly where it would him do the most good.
Speaking the Truth in Love, I am...
DLA
Op3: Why would ritual have to be dead? You are presuming a lot.
By the way, Op3, does your Bible have a 14th chapter in I Corinthians as well as an 11th?
No matter what your take on kneeling is, the heavy handed approach taken by Fr. Tran has been very un-Christlike. Whatever happened to being "pastoral" and "culturally sensitive"?
There are a number of radio apologists and others who fret and worry that the people of St. Mary's by the Sea are not, like lemmings, defer to the prudence of imprudent men, obeying the disobedient, ignoring their rights and pious customs, and marching into the sea.
These are fretters who exagerate the one spiritual virtue of obedience and fall into heresy, and ultimately (intentionally or not) undo the Church (as Chesterton has observed). It was so in Tudor England. It was so in Calvin's cantons and Luther's German provinces. It was so, among certain quarters, in eighteenth and nineteenth century France. It was so in the heady days immediately following Vatican II.
It need not be so. The actions of the Milanese laity saved the Ambrosian rite. The actions of "schismatic" clergy and stubborn laity saved the Tridentine Missal from extinction. Now, granted, the gesture at two places in a novus ordo Mass hardly compares to these examples, yet, it need not be so.
Prayers for the perseverence of those who remain at St. Mary's. And an invitation to those who went (understandably) to the irregular traditional chapel to return to their parish (perhaps after attending the earlier traditional Mass) and kneel in the customary manner every Sunday. And further invitation for other fed up and frustrated Catholics in the OC and LA to join them in preserving the sacred. Were I not 1500 miles away, I would join them myself.
In the Novus Ordo Communion Service ( not the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass) does transubstantion rerally take place? If not, then standing should be the norm. If so, then why iosn't everone kneeling out of respect for the REAL PRESENCE?
Spelling corrected "really "
"iosn't" - isn't
George, what are you talking about?
One is not excommunicated for mortal sin.
Ms. Margaret,
I am one of those Altar boys that you insulted without knowing by saying:
"I am very glad that those "altar boys" (Can I say those words?) have been dismissed. They look very suspicious to me."
Why do you insult my brother and I?
Do you know us? Have we done something to you? Our parents, friends, and parishioners at Saint Mary's by the Sea
have a different opinion of us. We are homeschoolers and attend daily Mass. Ms. Margeret I believe that you owe us an apology if after all you are a good Catholic. Also please let me know why do we look suspicious to you?
All this is exactly why Pope Benedict says we ought not to arbitrarily mess with the Liturgy as it has evolved. It did not evolve after VII, it was hijacked with little or no forethought to the consequences.
Now we have an entire generation who thinks that returning to the pre-VII symbolic nuances (that were not changed by fiat of VII, but rather by liberal hijack) are a hijack.
I can't but agree that incremental changes, heavy on catechesis is the only way to proceed. That just happens to be Pope Benedict's seeming thoughts on the subject as well. The Vatican is issuing letters teaching what should be done. Perhaps it is up to the laity to read them and gently, charitably exhort our pastors to notice the wisdom in them.
Heavens knows, I don't want this generation to have to deal with overnight changes that we had to deal with post-VII, with the resultant doubts, chaos, and loss of faith that resulted.
For the record, I think that VII is a gift of the Spirit that was hijacked by the Spirit of the World--aided by the weeds intermingled with the wheat.
If we're not dealing with abuses that render the Sacrament void, we need to start with the translation and a catechesis of what the Mass really is--our participation with the angels and saints, as a part of the Body of Christ Himself who is Victim & Priest offering His Sacrifice, along with all of ours that have been perfected through Him, with Him, and in Him. It is the perfect fulfillment of the sacrifices, Passovers, and Days of Atonement of OT worship...
When all is said and done, I believe that giving the Bishops permission to make these arbitrary changes is what has precipitated these problems, divisions, and disunities within our Church. We need to pray for Pope Benedict to have the wisdom of Solomon in reuniting us all.
In Christ's peace and joy,
Robin L. in TX
PS St. Paul, who was all things to all people so as not to be a scandal to them must be having fits...St. Paul, pray for us, and especially for the Diocese of Orange and all sees that are similar to it.
"Now wouldn't a crackdown like that be a great thing on real issues, such as abortion?"
AMEN!
Manuel, I think she was kidding, though I'm not 100% positive.
Manuel Ruiz:
I'm sure Margaret was being sarcastic. What she meant was that you and your brother looked like very nice, devout boys, and certainly not like dangerous characters who had to be barred from the sacristy.
(I know -- adults have weird senses of humor. You're lucky you never dealt with my dad. His sense of humor is so dry that a lot of adults never realize he's making jokes at all. Even when he's been joking for a good ten minutes at a time.)
Lay Dominican:
"So are you implying that those who would stand or sit are not good Catholics? Interesting that Cardinal Arinze in his oft quoted statement says that those wishing to kneel or sit should be free to do so. Thus the Church does not recognize people who stand or sit as evil incarnate. Funny how so many people who comment here do."
Thank you for letting me see a need to clarify. All I was responding to was the tendency to say that posture doesn't matter one way or another. Although my personal penchant is for kneeling, I don't think that one or the other posture is universally "right" or another "wrong." However, I don't respond well to those who argue that such things in liturgy are irrelevant and spurious to what is essential. Such a view - that our external action has nothing to do with our internal disposition - smack of a gnostic dualism which is not what our Incarnate Faith is all about.
What I was getting at was this: liturgy isn't just "going through the motions" like the children's song "Hokey Pokey" might imply. It's deeper than that. So whether we kneel or stand or sit or whatever, let us do nothing too casually or matter-of-factly when we're dealing with the profoundly sublime moments of liturgical worship. Let all of our actions, words, songs be carefully examined and thoroughly thought through. Let our lex orandi reflect our lex credendi. And let our Bishops impliment those actions which are best suited to our own various needs, culturally and practically, regarding how we approach God with the proper disposition. May exceptional norms not be imposed needlessly on a people whose faith will be damaged - not aided - by them.
THAT was my argument. Sorry if I was unclear.
Why do some of you make apologies for other people's action when you are not even sure that these people are sorry for making such actions? I happen to personally know these boys and it is a breath of fresh air to see boys who know what they are doing while serving at Mass and who behave themselves with respect towards the event they are participating in.
Stop with the excuses, I strongly believe Margaret meant what she said. At the same time it saddens me to see that by approving of the dismissal of these two boys Margaret endorsers the alternative when it comes to altar servers: kids who goof around during Mass with their partners in crime, kids that are not dressed properly, kids who are yawning all the way through Mass. Should I go on?
it is interesting to note that Bishop Brown has been careful, to this point, to allow only spokespeople to speak for him and share the diocesan position.
He has had two parish administrators implement changes that he directed. He ordered it done, but has been careful to have these administrators say that they are making the changes.
He meets with Fr. Tran weekly and has been in close communication with him over this issue. Fr. Tran has let parishioners know this.
The invitation to leave the parish and the diocese was done with Bishop Brown's blessing. Fr. Tran explicitly states this, and the diocese has gone on record as "standing behind Fr. Tran". (Still, never from Bishop Brown's own moth, though.)
Bishop Brown has also (through his intermediaries) been careful to enumerate any number of bodies from the Holy See, to the USCCB/NCCB, to of the province of the USCCB Region XI (CA, Hawaii and Nevada).
he has carefully avoided the fact that he, alone, has instigated these changes. He has picked this fight with these people in this little parish. He wants to erase traditional Catholicism in all its forms from the Diocese of Orange, and he is essentially throwing all of his weight on this little parish in order to accomplish that end.
He could relax and adopt a live and let live attitude at any time, but he has pushed these people against a wall because he wants no corner of the diocese to reflect anything that resembles traditional Catholicism.
He has been careful to try and make it look like forcing people to stand comes from Rome, the USCCB/NCCB, to of the province of the USCCB Region XI (CA, Hawaii and Nevada), anybody but himself, alone.
Yet that is the truth of the matter. This whole crisis for these poor people begins and ends with Bishop Tod Brown.
@Fernando:
I think the way Margaret writes 'those "altar boys" (can I say those words?)' (and obviously not 'altar servers') makes it quite clear that she is being ironic.
And another question: Do the people who hover around here in the comments really seem to you the kind of guys who would endorse "kids who goof around during Mass with their partners in crime, kids that are not dressed properly, kids who are yawning all the way through Mass"??? Have you even read the comments? Just askin'...
Fernando,
Please don't.
Try to have a sense of humor.
"Liturgy (definition: "Work of the People")"
Liturgy is of Greek origin and is correctly translated to mean something along the lines of "at the service of the people".
My Greek professor went on for an entire period on a tangent about how "liturgy" has been variously translated by people trying to impose agenda. His assessment was that it could be compared with our idiomatic "public works," and as such, could be taken to be an act performed by a select group for the good of the entire people. The looser "work of the people" takes that enumerative sense away. At the Council, the latter definition seemed more popular...
Father Tran owes the couple in the lettter an apology for placing such an extreme burden on their hearts. How can he say that he never was singling out the kneeling issue? Those letters state otherwise. I think the Diocese of Orange looks very foolish for placing that statement on their website. It shows that they know they were wrong and it also shows they lie. They should try to dialogue with this parish, if they really care about souls. The very sad truth is that everyone knows they really don't care. Maybe Pope Benedict will!
Joe and Petra,
I happen to remember when these boys were dismissed, they did not take it lighly, were is the humor on that?
To these boys it was very special to be serving at daily Mass, even when it would entail getting up every day at 6:00 a.m. in the morning. Them being dismissed and then someone making bad jokes about their ordeal, is no laghing matter.
I can have a sense of humor, I will show you. Do you guys know why mexican make tamales during Christmas? So we can have something to unwrap.
At the same time there is nothing humorous about this situation, I happen to know a lot of the people, beside the altar boys, who have been affected by the micromanagement of this parish by Father Tran and they are not laghing about it.
Manuel and his brother,
Here's someone who served his first Mass at age 23, a long time ago. Yes, kneeling through much of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Perhaps you will able to find a book called "Kneeling in the Beanfield", the story of an altar boy who returned to his parish as a priest. You might find it uplifting.
I found the picture of you kneeling much more inspiring than the 200-pound "altar girl" with her midriff bare that we have in our parish.
Dios esté con ustedes.
Fernando!
The regular post-ers on this blog are on your side! Really!
Sometimes we get a little sarcastic but that doesn't mean we don't think this situation with Fr. Tran is serious.
You're preaching to the choir, as it were.
Midwestmom,
I agree with your comment about the regular post-ers, but the problem is that once on a while someone comes along who is not on our side and make comments that reflect their point of view, which differst from ours or are not very well thought. I believe that Margaret falls into that catagory and for such for comment she needs to be rebuke. At the same time, if this was a joke, I have not heard her clarification even after one of the altar boys called her to task. I have only heard apologies from other people .
The people at this parish have been going through a living purgatory and not all of them have had the fortitude to stand firm. As soon as Father Johnson retired and the Tridentine Mass ceased to be celebrated at this parish, many people left the parish for an independet church that offers the Tridentine Mass. The ones who have stayed have made legitimate efforts in an attempt to resolve the dictatorship style changes to their practices with not results even after they presented their case to Father Tran with Church documents.
On the mean time, a couple of miles away in the same city of Huntington Beach at Saint Simon and Jude, people are allowed to do as they will when it comes to the liturgy. Bishop Brown has been informed about make abuses and incidents at this parish and it is business as usuall. But if he sees piety and reverence he is quick to crush it at all cost. What a shame!
God bless those altar boys. They obviously have more balls than most the men at that parish. After the Nazis invaded Denmark during World II, they ordered all the Jews to start wearing a yellow Star of David on their clothing. The next day, the queen came out wearing a yellow Star of David and set an example of defiance for the rest of the country. What would Bsp. (gag) Brown and Fr. Tran do if EVERYONE knelt after the Agnus Dei. Unfortunately, another "fruit" of Vatican II's so-called "springtime" is a bunch of castrated sheep.
Are you sure that's the right church in the picture? There's a communion rail, an actual, honest-to-God (no pun intended) Crucifix--no touchdown Jesus--and a rather nice altar, as opposed to a square kitchen table. That, and the Altar Boys are wearing cassocks and surplices and the priest is wearing an adorned chausible in a more traditional style. This is the church that is supressing kneeling?
Where is Bishop Tod Brown? Has anyone noticed he is a no show to the fiasco he created. Hold on! I hear the sound of a fast approaching bus! Screeeeeech! Oooooohhh...too late, Bishop Brown just threw Father Tran under the bus on the Diocesan website! Quick, give him CPR...Catholic Perjury Resuscitation!
Fernando -
I can understand how being so close to the situation it might be hard to see anyone making light of it. However, for some people making jokes is a way to deal with an impossible situation.
Ask any cop - sometimes you have to laugh just to stop the tears.
I feel for the parishoners of St. Mary's by the Sea. It must be wrenching to have to deal with this.
As someone who was raised in a thoroughly post Vatican II though I will say I am somewhat jealous that you EVER had the opportunity to have regular Tridentine Mass. That was pretty darn lucky!
I believe that +Brown and Fr. Tran are mirror worshippers.
They are DiSSenters who are scandalizing the faithful. I wish Rome could crack down on them.
And those letters by Tran. Sheesh, could this guy please put MORE exclamation points! Smash his mirror, I say! With lots of exclamation points!
In addition to the lack of pastoral nature of Tran, and his lack of inclusiveness.
Interesting. How the left is so concerned with "inclusiveness" and "tolerance" but conveniently forget to include and tolerate the traditional catholics.
The road to hell is paved with the skulls of bad bishops.
In following this issue I must admit I find it troubling because I am ambivalent about it. I am a retired military officer, and the one thing I know about obedience is that it requires you to do what you don't want to just because the person telling you to do it has authority to order it.
That being said, it is a bit hard to swallow that priests and bishops back slap and glad hand "Catholic" politicians who wantonly disobey fundamental moral doctrines of the church and then come down like a ton of bricks on a poor old lady or altar boys who want to show reverence for the Real Presence.
This led me to do a little research about the Orange diocese. I went to their web site, and something struck me. I won't say specifically what, but I would as anyone interested to do the following and say what they think. Go to the Diocese of Orange web site and find as much pro life information as you can (find out what office handles it etc.) try and find definitive teaching from the bishop(s) about life issues. Do the same for vocations and religious life. Now do the same at the Diocese of Lincoln site or the Archdiocese of Denver. or even my home Archdiocese of Boston.
I think you will find a difference in emphasis that explains a lot - at least to me.
Fernando,
Nobody here is going to rebuke Margaret because she was - again - being sarcastic. She doesn't really think your sons are "suspicious." She was joking.
As for her not defending herself, she merely hasn't yet gotten back on this blog to read follow-up posts. If and when she does, I'm sure she'll set the record straight. Until then, we'll do it for her.
P.S. Your boys look awesome in their traditional servers cassocks and kneeling! I wish we had them in our parish. You've raised them right, Fernando!
I will simply quote from Abp. Marcel Lefebvre:
"The conciliar church is a schismatic church because it breaks with the Catholic Church that has always been. It has its new dogmas, its new priesthood, its new institutions, its new worship...This is why the founders of the conciliar church insist so much on obedience to today's church, prescinding from yesterday's church as though it no longer existed... To whatever extent pope, bishops, priests, or faithful adhere to this new church, they separate themselves from the Catholic Church."
Local parishioners shouldn’t be the only ones fighting this battle. When I first heard about this story I spent all of five minutes and 82 cents writing the following letter. If everyone would do this the Pope may even consider sending a legate over to slap father Tran around a little bit:
Francis Cardinal Arinze
Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments
Palazzo delle Congregazioni,
00193 Roma, Piazza Pio XII, 10
29 May 2006
Your Eminence,
It is being reported in this country that Fr. Martin Tran, pastor at St. Mary's by the Sea in the Diocese of Orange has announced to his parishioners, with the backing of the Diocese, that kneeling during Mass is a mortal sin. This teaching has not yet been announced in my own Archdiocese (Chicago) and I wondered if your Eminence could tell me if the judgment of mortal sin applies to my family and myself since we always kneel at Mass. If so, would it be necessary for us to confess the abuse in the sacrament of Penance and can we confess it in a general way or should we try to determine exactly how many times we’ve committed the offense? If not, would we be exempt from the teaching in the event we travel to the Diocese of Orange? Will the Archdiocese of Chicago become subject to this new teaching any time soon? I’ve invested a lot of time instilling in my children the importance of kneeling during the Holy Sacrifice and I would have a difficult time trying to explain to them that they should disregard everything I’ve ever told them about this. Finally, I’ve had a hard time trying to find the basis for this new teaching and I wondered if your Eminence could point me to applicable area of the Catechism. It would be of great help when the day comes where I have to re-catechize my children in this area.
Thank you for taking the time to consider my dilemma. I remain,
Yours in Christ,
(Mornac)
I'm missing the point of this tempest in a teapot.
Obviously, there are some real issues in the Roman Catholic church in Southern California. Yet, there are at least a dozen eastern Catholic churches in southern California that you never hear a whisper about. Churches that offer an orthodox Catholic alternative in the midst of Cardinal Mahoney's realm. And I'll bet you that most of those eastern Catholic churches are empty as compared to the Roman Catholic churches in the same area.
I understand the concept of bearing witness. And I do understand that people are reluctant to change. But you'd think that after awhile, Roman Catholics in Southern California would seek something different if they were truly unhappy with the status quo.
Perhaps the old adage about cursing the darkness rather than lighting a candle is applicable here?
Cory:
I'm a parishioner, and yes, that is a picture of St. Mary's by the Sea. However, that is not Father Tran in the picture.
The following is an order form for the Adoremus web site.
http://www.adoremus.org/OrderForm.html
On the order form is a Novena for the Renewal of the Sacred Liturgy. I intend to order copies and pass them out at St. Mary's with a request that we pick a date and all pray the novena as a parish for our parish.
The suggested donation is as follows:
Novenas
$ .50 each (1-10 copies)
$ .25 each (up to 200 copies)
More than 200 novenas, call us for a quote [314-863-8385].
Perhaps our supporters on this blog would join us. Maybe we if we get on our knees and beseech the Good Lord, he will intervene and bring peace back to our parish home.
Fernando, I wasn't "apologizing" for Margaret. I was trying to explain her meaning to someone who is probably too young to understand that particular kind of humor. No offense or patronization was intended.
If Fr Tran is so set on administering the norms of the Church. I hope he is consistent and not giving Holy Communion to those whose mortal sin he is aware of .
RBBA Democrat,
I can only speak for one Eastern Catholic church in Southern California, but until returning to the Traditional Latin Mass, I was a refugee from the abuses of the Novus Ordo in a Maronite Rite Catholic Church for over 8 years. We were blessed with a very holy and devout priest. The two Sunday Masses were always well-attended and the number of other "refugees" continued to increase the entire time I was there.
(Also, because the Maronites have Holy Communion by intinction, EVERYONE must receive on the tongue!)
To Mornac, a little correction: Fr. Tran did not say that kneeling was a mortal sin, he said that disobeying the bishop's directive to refrain from kneeling is a mortal sin. I'm a supporter of the kneelers, by the way.
Dear Former Altar Boy:
I'm glad to hear that your Maronite church was well attended. I go to a tiny eastern Catholic mission. Not so much because of problems in the local Roman Catholic Diocese, but because I like the theological emphasis and liturgy a whole lot more.
Personal experience has been that while many Roman Catholics will complain about problems in what I refer to as "reprobate Diocese", few will actually take any personal action to remove themselves from it. In spite of there being viable alternatives in the same area.
I'm glad that our Maronite bretheren were able to provide you and your family a place of refuge.
"...the Pope may even consider sending a legate over to slap father Tran around a little bit..."
I wanna watch!
"Fr. Tran did not say that kneeling was a mortal sin, he said that disobeying the bishop's directive to refrain from kneeling is a mortal sin."
In this context, that's a distinction without a difference.
Prediction:
Mornac's letter will be a wasted 82 cents. Cardinal Arinze will not bother to answer. Pastor Tran will receive no censure, much less Todd Brown. It will be business as usual, and parishoners will either like it or lump it.
"I will simply quote from Abp. Marcel Lefebvre:"
Ah, the irony of quoting a schismatic denouncing the Catholic Church for being schismatic.
Ah, the irony of Catholics who declare perfect fidelity to a new Church whose liturgical abominations they can no longer believe, obey or follow.
Suzie,pay attention to the letter sent to the Apostolic Nuncio, by the elderly couple the "Carmodys"! You are wrong Suzie. The Carmodys' knocked on the Sacristy door to ask Father Tran if it was a mortal sin if they knelt. He told them "Yes!" Don't assist Bishop Brown who made Father Tran follow every order from headquarters. I suggest that if you want to kneel to write to Bishop Brown and ask him why did he only deceide to change the threat of mortal sin, when their cruel dictatorship was exposed on the Sunday front page of the L.A. Times?
It was amusing to read all the comments here, but they are all for the most part dealing with symptoms of a larger problem.
St Mary's-by-the-Sea has had a long time reputation of being a parish that is very traditional in its practices and the diocese has long HATED that. Fr. Daniel Johnson, the former pastor, protected the parish for nearly 25 years from the assaults that you read about now. Subsequently, the parish was able to grow to at least four times the size it was when Fr. Johnson was assigned there as punishment for being priest who loved tradition.
Since his departure in May 2004, the parish became exposed to the hirelings and wolves of the diocese. The issue is NOT obedience. The issue is intimidation and oppression of the members of the parish to make it come into line with the other NO parishes in the diocese.
I am a former member who had the joy of joining the Church through Fr. Johnson at St Mary's almost ten years ago. I have since moved to a place where I have the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) on a daily basis, but I like many others saw the diocese waiting with sticky and dirty fingers waiting to take St. Mary's apart. The TLM community left almost immediately after the TLM was banished from St. Mary's.
Obedience is of no use when the authority calling for the obedience is acting in bad faith which is excatly what Fr. Tran and Bishop Brown is doing. They are seeking to eviserate St. Mary's in any way possible.
Buddy,
I agree. I also used to attend St. Mary’s. Bishop Tod was only waiting for the retirement of Father Johnson to begin dismantling the Parish.
Something of interest to many, perhaps, who are always used to hearing Abp. Lefebvre in the same breath with 'schism.' Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos, Prefect of the Congregation for the Clergy recently declared to the bishops of SSPX that the Society is not in "formal schism." Surely, he could not have said something like for public consumption, unless he had had papal approval.
The letter I addressed to Cardinal Arinze was correct insofar as I told him that “It is being reported in this country that “Fr. Martin Tran…has announced to his parishioners…that kneeling during Mass is a mortal sin.” I based that statement on the only source I had at the time – The L.A.Times report of May 28 which reads, “Kneeling ‘is clearly rebellion, grave disobedience and mortal sin,’ Father Martin Tran, pastor at St. Mary's by the Sea, told his flock in a recent church bulletin.”
(http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/
la-me-kneel28may28,1,6981595.story?coll=la-
headlines-frontpage&ctrack=1&cset=true)
If the Times has difficulty getting a story straight then I have no problem with them getting caught up in this morass. Does anyone know if they’ve printed a correction or clarification yet?
Buddy and Joe are 100 percent correct--you would hear hundreds of stories like this, if people hadn't left after the Tridentine was taken away.
Personally, if it werent for Father Johnson I dont know WHERE i would be in my faith. I came from the LA diocese (y'all know about them..lol)
and I didnt realize WHAT I was missing, and what i wasnt "GETTING" till i went to one of his masses (accidentally by the way driving down PCH and somehow bumping into it and thinking how it reminded me of one on Catalina..lol)
anyways....after that, I knew I "GOT" my faith, and it wasnt just a word anymore or a ritual. Man, what the average Catholic today is missing, I just cant explain.
At the end of the day, the issue is less about kneeling and more about getting rid of any tradition at all, and silencing "THOSE" people...who produced the likes of Bishop Sheen, whom i hope is beatified VERY soon.
Whats the problem with every diocese having a few Tridentine masses in convenient locations for the populace that want it eh??
Another thing that really gets me (speaking to Manuel Ruiz Jr.) is the fact that all the diocese always want us to be praying for VOCATIONS. And YET they squelch the very devout catholics that this "pool" of diminishing applicants would come from. Its crazy making i tell you, the whole thing is absolutely nuts.
Well, thanks to Father Johnson, my faith will never leave me now and I will fight the good fight no matter HOW unpopular it becomes (which it will be more so in years to come im sure)
Im grateful for what "was" and am sorry for those of you who never experienced it...it was awesome
and I will carry it with me forever.
The few people who stayed WERE the people trying to do things right by the way...seeing as that "other" traditional mass is not in communion with the diocese so to speak (y'all get my meaning)...but I guess trying to do things the right/procedural way makes you the brunt of jokes, mocking, ridicule, etc...
hmmm...who else went thru that??lol
The good news is....you CAN find out which mass is done by Father Luke or Father Mackin...so i just go to those now..lol..both VERY devout, prob trying to keep their jobs there (for our sake..lol)
then the rest of the time i gotta go to either a "regular" mass at one of our fine establishments (y'all should check out Columbans Life Teen..lol)
or i luck out and squish in St. Michaels Abbey---Killians in Mission Viejo isnt bad..hahah..and then theres Saint Vincent de Paul in Huntington but I refuse to go to Simon and Judes..lol
As Victor Lams once quipped, "Hours for the Sacrament of Clarification are from 3 to 3:30 pm every Saturday."
St. Simon and Jude is also known as "Simon and Garfunkle"
I also thought somethin might have been "implied" when someone had mentioned "Jude and Jude" or was that not intentional?? rotf
I have heard them referred to as St. Jiven'and Jude! Poor Sts. Simon and Jude. They are Saints, so we don't have to worry about them rolling over in their grave!
"At the end of the day, the issue is less about kneeling and more about getting rid of any tradition at all,.."
Exactly. Those poor starving souls who remain within the Novus Ordo 'banquet hall' structure scratch around under the "rich man's table," eating any scraps that may fall. It is all very pathetic.
This issue is just a mere fraction of the whole issue of Modernism. We must follow the liturgical norms of Holy Mother Church...not that which dumbs them down...minimalism kills the spiritual life and eventually the soul. Let us be attentive that we remain in Sanctifying Grace by weekly Confession and Holy Communion. Be on guard, the devil is prowling!
RE: ORANGE COUNTY MESS,WHY NOT JUST GO TO THE OUR LADY HELP OF CHRISTIANS CATHOLIC CHAPEL IN GARDEN GROVE THAT OFFERS THE LATIN MASS DAILY THEY HAVE 2 EXCELLENT HOLY PRIESTS,AND THE PASTOR,FR.PEREZ,IS A PILAR OF KNOWLEDGE ON THE TRUE CATHOLIC FAITH,BY THE WAY YOU CAN ONLY KNEEL THERE AT THE COMMUNION RAIL,NO OTHER CHOICE,AND I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT OUR BLESSED MOTHER AND MANY ANGELS ARE PRESENT AT EVERY MASS AND THEY KNEEL,IT HAS BEEN REVEALED TO CERTAIN PRIVELEGED SOULS THAT MANY PRIESTS AND BISHOPS DO GO TO HELL,SO BE SURE NOT TO FOLLOW THEM,PRAY TO THE HOLY SPIRIT FOR GUIDANCE
Bill,
To what diocesis does Our Lady Help of Christians belongs to? I do not see the name of church listed on the Diocesan website.
Based on the modus operatus of Bishop Brown regarding homosexuality, I think it will be proper to call him Bishop Brokeback Brown.
Message to the Holy See:
If it's brown flush it.
FIRST OF ALL ITS NOT A CHURCH ITS A CHAPEL,AND POPE BENEDICT 16 HAS SAID THAT YOU ARE ALLOWED TO GO TO THE CHAPELS AND THIS FULLFILLS YOUR SUNDAY OBLIGATION,ITS NOT UNDER THE DIOCESE,IN THESE EXTRAORDINARY TIMES WHEN THE CHURCH IS IN SUCH TURMOIL,AND SOME BISHOPS HAVE TAKEN AWAY FROM US SOME OF OUR FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS ,I THANK GOD THAT SOME OF THESE TRADITIONAL CHAPELS EXIST,AND YES,THEY ARE ALLOWED BY THE POPE REMEMBER THAT THE COUNCIL OF TRENT IN 1560 SAID THAT THE MASS AS IT WAS AT THAT TIME WAS NEVER TO BE ALTERED,THIS WAS BINDING ,AND LOOK AT IT NOW,IN OUR LADY HELP OF CHRISTIANS THIS IS THE MASS THAT IS SAID,THE TRADITIONAL LATIN MASS,YOU COULD TALK TO FR.PEREZ YOURSELF IF YOU WANT TO,CALL 714-547-9944
I was under the understanding that when a priest looses his faculties he is not to be referred as Father anymore and from I know that is the case with Reverend Perez. Correct me if I am wrong.
When Pope Benedict made the statement you refer to he was referring to SSPX not to “independent” chapels. Rome has not spoken regarding “independent” chapels such as Our Lady Help of Christians. Also, who is Reverend Perez’s Bishop? What Missal does he use?
I am bothered by the people who left Saint Mary’s and went to Our Lady Help of Christians. They seem to not realize that Bishop Brown is elated with their action since they are not at Saint Mary’s anymore to question his actions. They are now at their little cocoon pretending that everything is fine and dandy, while Bishop Brown continues to destroy the faith, the liturgy and geoperdacies the salvation of countless souls. But history repeats itself, wasn’t Christ abandoned by the apostles at the Garden of Gethsemane when he needed them the most? Same thing happened during the Mexican Religious persecution, many fled the country, but others stayed and their blood became the seeds of faith for new generations.