What do you have to say for yourself ?
Wow, unbelievable! Caught! Can't backpeddle fast enough on this one!!! One thing is for sure. Fr. Tran has no trouble lying, and Fr. Fenton from the diocese just nods his head. "yeah, it's a mortal sin, we back Fr. Tran!" Then, "yeah, it isn't a mortal sin, we back Fr. Tran!"
'liturgical practices of the Church as approved by the Pope'--no matter how reluctantly approved!
I'll probably get an earful from someone about 'obedience', but I'd also like to remind the bishops and clergy out there who feel it necessary to assert their authority to the nth degree in matters which are truly victimless but where the normally obedient faithful simply can't bring themselves to 'obey': He who will be greatest among you must be the servant of all.
These letters from Father Tran are hilarious, or they would be if only....Someone sensible and with authority needs to intervene here. If there is such a person.
Fr. Tran seems very smug in his letters.
Hmmmm.
Seems that someone has a little problem with his ego.
Maybe Fr Tran needs a nice, long vacation in a quiet monastic setting.
Say, 10 to 12 years.
Dean, Father tran and the diocese never said kneeling was a mortal sin. Keep in mind you are dealing with the scumbag american secular press. I took some heat over the whole affair from other people on this site but I was still in the right (or at least ninety something percent right). When a teenager called dim bulb makes adults look stupid maybe the so called 'orthodox' adults should look at their own understanding of Catholicism instead of going off half cocked.
I'm not claiming to know a lot about liturgical practices. In fact, when I saw Mister Augustinus' last post on the subject I went to a trusted source; catholic.com for info. The LA Times butchered the story, Father Tran, who clearly needs some patience, is not in the wrong as far asa kneeling after the Agnus Dei is concerned.
Again, I'm not the smartest guy in the world but, Jimmy Akin of Catholic Answers is no dummy. his take on the mess can be read here:
http://www.jimmyakin.org/2006/
05...ly_absolut.html
Dim Bulb,
If you have any hope of growing brighter, you will look before you blog. Read the letter posted which was written by the older coupleto Rome. They are tormented because Fr. Tran told them to their faces that they are in mortal son if they kneel.
I am just the messenger. People may draw conclusions one way or the other.
Do Fr. Tran and Bishop Brown follow the rubrics of the Missal themselves? Does Tran genuflect after he confects the Body of Christ and after the Blood of Christ? Does he genuflect, as required by the Missal before he communicates? Does he wear the liturgical vestments in the manner required?
Bishop Brown is a first class ass, remember him nailing his thesis to the door of his Cathedral a'la Martin Luther. How about grabbing and pulling a woman up from kneeling to receive Communion? Does anybody think he would ever push down the head of a fellow progressive who did not bow before receiving the most Holy Sacrament?
This is about a whole lot more than kneeling and standing. Tod Brown and his toadies like Tran have shown little obedience to the Holy See. They are hypocritical creeps. We need to pray for them but not follow them. Some of the posters on these Tran threads have pointed out the obedience due the Bishop, and they are right as long as the directives are legitimate.
I suggest the faithful parishoners continue to document this and contact the St. Joseph Foundation in Texas and forward info to Rome. Give the Holy See a chance and if they don't get any response call Steve Brady of RCF and chances are he will expose Brown and Co. for the disordered pervs that they might very well be.
I meant mortal sin, not son.
standing at the Consecration
Question from on 05-29-2006:
A bishop in a diocese of the USA says that the people must stand at the Consecration. They are told that it is a mortal sin not to follow the Bishop's decree. Is this true?
Answer by Rev. Mark J. Gantley, JCL on 05-31-2006:
No, this is not correct. In fact, unless impeded for some reason (e.g., a lack of space), the faithful are required to kneel.
I submitted a comment in regards to this.. curious what his response will be now.
Gerald,
Crackdown on abortion? in the Diocese of Orange? Ha! Quite the contrary. Loretta Sanchez, an openly pro-abortion politician was treated to applause when her presence was announced at a Catholic highschool Mass with Bishop Tod Brown present. Oh, and worst of all, she received Communion. All those highschool students scandalized. And little old ladies who have been devoted to beautifying the Sanctuary are dismissed for kneeling!
Remember that the devil rejoices in arguments, everyone. Calling Bishops, no matter how wrong, "first-class-asses" is an extreme we don't need to approach. It's also important to get our facts straight: Dim Bulb doesn't seem to have read what Jimmy Akin actually said before he posted the link here.
There's a lot of confusion and a lot of backpeddling happening on every front here. Insulting Father Tran's poor English is spurious to the debate, and uncharitable. It is also a bit unfair, when no one notes that the older couple declare themselves in their letter to be "beseiging" the Apostolic Nuncio.
I make these observations notwithstanding the fact that I think Bishop Brown is wrong. I also think that Father Tran is being far from pastoral. But let us not go about picking splinters from their eyes with the beam of uncharitable speech obstructing our own clear sense. In all things, charity. And humility, too, for all of us who purport to love kneeling so much.
The "good guys" will win this fight. But let's not give the good side of the argument an ugly face in the meantime...
The part about this whole sad story that confuses me is why are people kneeling after the agnus dei? I have never known people to kneel at this part at any Mass I have been to.
Why does this Bishop not allow someone to kneel, if they are compelled to? I would think that the Bishops should want Catholics to get down on bended knee, as much as possible after paying millions of dollars for the scandals. This is another scandal for the Diocese of Orange. Pray for Bishop Brown? Does anyone know where he was a Bishop before he came here? Maybe we should find out how he did there.
Jim: Kneeling after the Agnus Dei is the norm in the US. Granted the diocesan bishop may change it, BUT the people still have the right to kneel if compelled by conscience to do so. Go to this site and you'll see: http://www.ewtn.com/expert/
answe...lamb_of_god.htm
Gerald: Can't help but smirk at this statement in the OC diocese statement: "The bulliten article ... was about respect for the liturgical practices of the Church as approved by the Pope."
So ironic given the liturgical practice of kneeling as approved by the Pope.
Jim, you must be a member of St. Simon and Jude in Huntington Beach a few miles From St.Marys by the Sea, perhaps you been raised by 'Call to Action" parents I don't know I am 37 years old, a post vatican II baby live in The Los Angeles Diocese all my life. I always remember and do, kneeling after The Agnus Dei. It was until about two years ago that Cardinal Mahony got a wild hair up you know what and forced all his priests to promote this " so called directive of not kneeling after the Agnus Dei" and even promote not kneeling for the entire Eucharistic prayer including the Concecration , which I witnessed in my former parish. I clearly see Cardinal Mahony and Bishop Brown have an agenda of destroying the Catholic Faith through the destruction of The Holy Mass. Look what goes on at Cardinal Roger Mahonys Religious Education Congress every year. Gerald post up those previous pictures of The Congress! Oh Joey G. please ass, like it is such a bad word used in its proper context . St. Nicholas punched out Arius the Heretic and got thrown in jail for it, but Our Lord appeared to St. Nicholas and gave him back his robe and staff! People are rightfuly angered by the actions of Bishop Tod Brown and Fr. Tran, who is not some " backward peasant" and I mean no offence to peasants. He is very well educated , but looks like his education got the best of him and he has made himself look like an imbecile by Bishop Brown and staff members deceptive "directives" and statements. Charity you say! This is Charity, by standing up against false teachings. Humble, Catholics who kneel humble themselves ,they know they are not God, they choose out of their love and obedience to reverence and adore God , Whom, at The Agnus Dei , is lifted up by the priest, Jesus Christ, Himself , is right there and we fall to our knees. Satan has no knees, the men who promote not to kneel are puppets of satan!! Beware! for they come dressed like sheep, but are wolves, ready to destroy you!
It is interesting that the one who refers to St Nicholas at Nicea (a story which may or may not be true), says that anyone who opposes kneeling is of Satan. Nicea opposed kneeling! St Nicholas might punch you out, too... since you called Nicea Satanic.
I don't live in California at all and I have never even heard of "Call to action". I do belong to what I think is a fairly conservative Novus Ordo parish.
Maybe you or someone else can explain to me the kneeling after the Agnus Dei. In every Mass I have ever been to the congregation goes to receive communion after the Agnus Dei. That would be difficult to do if everyone were kneeling.
@Jim:
The kneeling starts at the "See the Lamb of God!" and ends after the "Lord I'm not worthy..." or shortly before going to Communion. I don't suppose you usually jump up right after the Agnus Dei and run to the altar to receive Communion... 
Thanks, that is more clear for me (it may be the end of my 12 hour shift that is making me thick headed).
@Henry,
I would like to see that refererence to the Council of Nicea opposing kneeling, if you don't mind.
I simply don't trust a grown man (Fr. Tran) who uses that many exclamation points in a single letter!!! It reminds me of my eight year old daughter writing a note to her friends!!! [By the way, I'm kidding...sort of!!!].
Haha some funny posts I must say.. I was in the diocese of Raleigh that also has this norm of not kneeling after the Agnus Dei (maybe Mohoney, Brown, Gossman, and any others got together on this one hmmm) Anyways, some laity here sent a letter to Rome about it and the Nuncio sent a letter to the Bishop asking "Surely you are not forbidding the people to kneel?" In other words the Bishop can make standing the normative posture and ask that people keep the norm, but he cannot forbid them from kneeling if they desire. Just pump off some letters to Arinze, CC the Nunico and Brown will get a nice letter from them in return.
Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after having individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, to forbid this practice?
Responsum: Negative, et ad mentem. The mens is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of the Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.
A point of clarification is in order, since this statement from the CDW is getting circulation this week. While the "holding" in the responsum addresses kneeling after Communion, the rationale would seem to encompass other situations within the Mass, i.e., after the Agnus Dei. If this subject goes before the CDW, I can't imagine a ruling different from the one above issued by Cardinal Arinze in 2003.
Well for my money, I am very glad that those "altar boys" (Can I say those words?) have been dismissed. They look very suspicious to me.
" . . . I decided to terminate you . . ." "And you are not welcome in the sacristy or the sanctuary . . ."
And this was signed "Your brother in Christ?"
Rich, I'm not sure that the two situations are comparable. The time after Communion seems to me to be more of a time of private prayer (the GIRM allows that) rather than a public, common moment such as the common prayer "Lord I am not worthy..." It seems to me that the commonality of posture would matter more before Communion than after.
It's not too difficult to find this fact out about standing from Nicea. When one learns about the way liturgical changes occured in the West, one learns one of the Western innovations was kneeling. Nothing wrong with it, it has its place, but the other, longer-standing (pun not intended) tradition is not going to be "Satanic." In fact, it is still enforced in the East and many in the East point out Nicea as a way to point out the "abuse" in the West similar to how people talk about it being "abuse" not to kneel, neither side getting the point.
http://faculty.cua.edu/penningto...0-
Epilogue.html
That is where you can read Canon 20 of Nicea. You can find it at other places as well.
JoeyG:
I think most of us here understood that the elderly Mr. and Mrs. Carmody meant "beseech" not "besiege".
Lack of charity toward Fr. Tran regarding his clumsy English (and cultural "tin ear") is inexcusable. However, his letters and statements were certainly not models of charity. I don't see how you can say the same about the Carmodys' letter.
Uh-oh, Henry's back.
In case you want to examine the Greek, you can also look here:
http://srocco.org/Liturgies/
Nice...ceaStanding.dsp
Kathy,
The rationale of the responsum mentions "various parts of the celebration of the Holy Mass."
One must read the exact question: is it the intention of the new Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, to forbid this practice of kneeling? The answer is obviously no, it is not forbidding the practice of kneeling. It is not making it a requirement. It has left the decision up to each individual Bishop. Thus the answer is correct but does not say what people seem to make it out to mean.
Now the question which has not been asked, and should be: can Bishops forbid kneeling?
This continues with the problem I mentioned before: many people do not know how to read, and they really read into a decree something which was not even asked!
Roger "Glass Pitcher" Mahony...thankfully Bishop Brom of San Diego didn't follow his lead...
Thanks, Rich, you're right about the law. But there is a nuance to be considered about the appropriateness of individualization of postures during the various parts of the Mass. During some parts, especially after Communion, it seems more appropriate to waive the intention expressed in the last part of GIRM 42, because that is a private, not communal moment of the Eucharistic celebration:
A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.
At other times it seems much less appropriate, such as when we are saying something together. (My bigger beef with differences of posture has to do with those during the Our Father.)
zie hammer,
so when i go to kitty hawk on vacation this summer will i be able to kneel?
I wonder whether Bishop Brown cracks down on hand-holders
Or the "orans" crowd.
I've been following the posts here and in the previous article, and I've still yet to get a clear answer to the question: Where in Scripture (remember the Book that what we're supposed to base everything on?), does all this play out? Our Lord was >at table< with his disciples. That's the only mention of the Eucharist in the whole of the Gospels. The Apostle Paul made mention of how to behave ("eat before arriving, and do not be drunk"); other than that - NADA.
I'm not trying to say that we shouldn't kneel (heaven knows, I prefer it myself); but aren't we perhaps making an >idol< out of the Liturgy (definition: "Work of the People"), instead of letting the Liturgy guide us into deeper Worship?
Op3, if I were accusing someone of idolatry I would make a point of being much clearer than that. Who and what is making an idol out of the liturgy, and how?
(By the way, I think your Bible is not complete if that is all you see about the Liturgy in it.)
I was not accusing *anybody*. I was merely wondering if we were taking something incredibly precious (the Eucharist), and making the actions and rules about who-what-when the focus instead of the simple beauty of worship to Our Lord.
I think my KJV/NEB is complete, last I read it...
Regards.
Cordelia:
I attended Mass at St. Mary's By the Sea in Hatteras (Buxton), which is south of Kitty Hawk but I am assuming in the same diocese. It seemed the regular parishioners stood, but my friend and I and a few other kneeled, and it didn't seem to be a problem.
Op3,
if liturgy is to be understood as "The Work of the People" (which translation, by the way, I have it on good authority is a weak rendering of the word's meaning), then our postures and gestures as a community matter greatly. Since Christ is Incarnate, kneeling CAN and DOES matter. It is perfectly understandable why people are getting upset over this issue: they're good Catholics, and not Manichaeans.
Your questions brings back home a point which has somehow been pushed to the side in this debate. The argument has centered around the question of kneeling at a particular time, and what liturgical rules apply. But does anyone remember the initial statement out of the Diocese of Orange? The one that made reference to "our dignity as human beings?" It seems that there's a fundamental, theological problem at work out there which is forming the basis for liturgical principle. I'm surprised that more people haven't taken issue with this, which seems to be at the heart of the matter.
man with black hat: Straight up, no chaser... and no bull!
"I would share with my readers a little story about what obedience is NOT.
"A young priest was called into his bishop's office. It seems he was preaching on a topic of some controversy, the continuation of which would have been the source of embarrassment by the prelate, who used this occasion to direct the priest to stop..."
Op3...You have just been charitably schooled by Joey G. Joey, great response, I couldn't agree more! That statement was very telltale and troubling. It certainly could be a poster example of what Pope Benedict is not pleased with in "The Spirit of the Liturgy"! Joey, I hope you can tell that Op3, has been formed with nuanced and complex theology! Your logical remark is like water in the desert of Op3!
It looks like that handsome black hat has imparted great wisdom on David L. Alexanders Homepage post. David...Could you loan that hat to Bishop Tod Brown and Op3 for a while?
Straight Up, No Chaser David Alexander is right on the money! God Bless Him!!!
I too was read the riot act by a new goofy pastor way back in 1989 for my refusal --as an 8th grade altar boy--to not genuflect and not kneel at the consecration of the Mass. This is the way we were trained and instead of getting kicked out, I resigned.
As I have always maintained, scratch a liberal find a fascist.
Since Christ is Incarnate, kneeling CAN and DOES matter. It is perfectly understandable why people are getting upset over this issue: they're good Catholics, and not Manichaeans.
So are you implying that those who would stand or sit are not good Catholics? Interesting that Cardinal Arinze in his oft quoted statement says that those wishing to kneel or sit should be free to do so. Thus the Church does not recognize people who stand or sit as evil incarnate. Funny how so many people who comment here do
To Joey & "Pray". First of all, I *NEVER* said that kneeling was un-important. My point was (if I can put this clearly enough) that it is the *ATTITUDE* in our hearts that is supposed to determine our mode of worship - not the threats of being kicked out of church because you won't play "Simon Says." Remember Jesus' words - "They that worship must worship in SPIRIT AND TRUTH". He also had a lot to say about the Pharisees and their rituals.
Simply put: Are we worshipping or following a dead ritual? In my case, I prefer to worship.
And to "Pray" - kindly keep me away from the likes of Bp Brown.
Sincerely.
Rosary Daily:
No, but I have a matching set of boots. I'm sure I could loan one to His Lordship. I know exactly where it would him do the most good.
Speaking the Truth in Love, I am...
DLA
Op3: Why would ritual have to be dead? You are presuming a lot.
By the way, Op3, does your Bible have a 14th chapter in I Corinthians as well as an 11th?
No matter what your take on kneeling is, the heavy handed approach taken by Fr. Tran has been very un-Christlike. Whatever happened to being "pastoral" and "culturally sensitive"?
There are a number of radio apologists and others who fret and worry that the people of St. Mary's by the Sea are not, like lemmings, defer to the prudence of imprudent men, obeying the disobedient, ignoring their rights and pious customs, and marching into the sea.
These are fretters who exagerate the one spiritual virtue of obedience and fall into heresy, and ultimately (intentionally or not) undo the Church (as Chesterton has observed). It was so in Tudor England. It was so in Calvin's cantons and Luther's German provinces. It was so, among certain quarters, in eighteenth and nineteenth century France. It was so in the heady days immediately following Vatican II.
It need not be so. The actions of the Milanese laity saved the Ambrosian rite. The actions of "schismatic" clergy and stubborn laity saved the Tridentine Missal from extinction. Now, granted, the gesture at two places in a novus ordo Mass hardly compares to these examples, yet, it need not be so.
Prayers for the perseverence of those who remain at St. Mary's. And an invitation to those who went (understandably) to the irregular traditional chapel to return to their parish (perhaps after attending the earlier traditional Mass) and kneel in the customary manner every Sunday. And further invitation for other fed up and frustrated Catholics in the OC and LA to join them in preserving the sacred. Were I not 1500 miles away, I would join them myself.
In the Novus Ordo Communion Service ( not the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass) does transubstantion rerally take place? If not, then standing should be the norm. If so, then why iosn't everone kneeling out of respect for the REAL PRESENCE?
Spelling corrected "really "
"iosn't" - isn't
George, what are you talking about?
One is not excommunicated for mortal sin.
Ms. Margaret,
I am one of those Altar boys that you insulted without knowing by saying:
"I am very glad that those "altar boys" (Can I say those words?) have been dismissed. They look very suspicious to me."
Why do you insult my brother and I?
Do you know us? Have we done something to you? Our parents, friends, and parishioners at Saint Mary's by the Sea
have a different opinion of us. We are homeschoolers and attend daily Mass. Ms. Margeret I believe that you owe us an apology if after all you are a good Catholic. Also please let me know why do we look suspicious to you?
All this is exactly why Pope Benedict says we ought not to arbitrarily mess with the Liturgy as it has evolved. It did not evolve after VII, it was hijacked with little or no forethought to the consequences.
Now we have an entire generation who thinks that returning to the pre-VII symbolic nuances (that were not changed by fiat of VII, but rather by liberal hijack) are a hijack.
I can't but agree that incremental changes, heavy on catechesis is the only way to proceed. That just happens to be Pope Benedict's seeming thoughts on the subject as well. The Vatican is issuing letters teaching what should be done. Perhaps it is up to the laity to read them and gently, charitably exhort our pastors to notice the wisdom in them.
Heavens knows, I don't want this generation to have to deal with overnight changes that we had to deal with post-VII, with the resultant doubts, chaos, and loss of faith that resulted.
For the record, I think that VII is a gift of the Spirit that was hijacked by the Spirit of the World--aided by the weeds intermingled with the wheat.
If we're not dealing with abuses that render the Sacrament void, we need to start with the translation and a catechesis of what the Mass really is--our participation with the angels and saints, as a part of the Body of Christ Himself who is Victim & Priest offering His Sacrifice, along with all of ours that have been perfected through Him, with Him, and in Him. It is the perfect fulfillment of the sacrifices, Passovers, and Days of Atonement of OT worship...
When all is said and done, I believe that giving the Bishops permission to make these arbitrary changes is what has precipitated these problems, divisions, and disunities within our Church. We need to pray for Pope Benedict to have the wisdom of Solomon in reuniting us all.
In Christ's peace and joy,
Robin L. in TX
PS St. Paul, who was all things to all people so as not to be a scandal to them must be having fits...St. Paul, pray for us, and especially for the Diocese of Orange and all sees that are similar to it.
"Now wouldn't a crackdown like that be a great thing on real issues, such as abortion?"
AMEN!
Manuel, I think she was kidding, though I'm not 100% positive.
Manuel Ruiz:
I'm sure Margaret was being sarcastic. What she meant was that you and your brother looked like very nice, devout boys, and certainly not like dangerous characters who had to be barred from the sacristy.
(I know -- adults have weird senses of humor. You're lucky you never dealt with my dad. His sense of humor is so dry that a lot of adults never realize he's making jokes at all. Even when he's been joking for a good ten minutes at a time.)
Lay Dominican:
"So are you implying that those who would stand or sit are not good Catholics? Interesting that Cardinal Arinze in his oft quoted statement says that those wishing to kneel or sit should be free to do so. Thus the Church does not recognize people who stand or sit as evil incarnate. Funny how so many people who comment here do."
Thank you for letting me see a need to clarify. All I was responding to was the tendency to say that posture doesn't matter one way or another. Although my personal penchant is for kneeling, I don't think that one or the other posture is universally "right" or another "wrong." However, I don't respond well to those who argue that such things in liturgy are irrelevant and spurious to what is essential. Such a view - that our external action has nothing to do with our internal disposition - smack of a gnostic dualism which is not what our Incarnate Faith is all about.
What I was getting at was this: liturgy isn't just "going through the motions" like the children's song "Hokey Pokey" might imply. It's deeper than that. So whether we kneel or stand or sit or whatever, let us do nothing too casually or matter-of-factly when we're dealing with the profoundly sublime moments of liturgical worship. Let all of our actions, words, songs be carefully examined and thoroughly thought through. Let our lex orandi reflect our lex credendi. And let our Bishops impliment those actions which are best suited to our own various needs, culturally and practically, regarding how we approach God with the proper disposition. May exceptional norms not be imposed needlessly on a people whose faith will be damaged - not aided - by them.
THAT was my argument. Sorry if I was unclear.
Why do some of you make apologies for other people's action when you are not even sure that these people are sorry for making such actions? I happen to personally know these boys and it is a breath of fresh air to see boys who know what they are doing while serving at Mass and who behave themselves with respect towards the event they are participating in.
Stop with the excuses, I strongly believe Margaret meant what she said. At the same time it saddens me to see that by approving of the dismissal of these two boys Margaret endorsers the alternative when it comes to altar servers: kids who goof around during Mass with their partners in crime, kids that are not dressed properly, kids who are yawning all the way through Mass. Should I go on?
it is interesting to note that Bishop Brown has been careful, to this point, to allow only spokespeople to speak for him and share the diocesan position.
He has had two parish administrators implement changes that he directed. He ordered it done, but has been careful to have these administrators say that they are making the changes.
He meets with Fr. Tran weekly and has been in close communication with him over this issue. Fr. Tran has let parishioners know this.
The invitation to leave the parish and the diocese was done with Bishop Brown's blessing. Fr. Tran explicitly states this, and the diocese has gone on record as "standing behind Fr. Tran". (Still, never from Bishop Brown's own moth, though.)
Bishop Brown has also (through his intermediaries) been careful to enumerate any number of bodies from the Holy See, to the USCCB/NCCB, to of the province of the USCCB Region XI (CA, Hawaii and Nevada).
he has carefully avoided the fact that he, alone, has instigated these changes. He has picked this fight with these people in this little parish. He wants to erase traditional Catholicism in all its forms from the Diocese of Orange, and he is essentially throwing all of his weight on this little parish in order to accomplish that end.
He could relax and adopt a live and let live attitude at any time, but he has pushed these people against a wall because he wants no corner of the diocese to reflect anything that resembles traditional Catholicism.
He has been careful to try and make it look like forcing people to stand comes from Rome, the USCCB/NCCB, to of the province of the USCCB Region XI (CA, Hawaii and Nevada), anybody but himself, alone.
Yet that is the truth of the matter. This whole crisis for these poor people begins and ends with Bishop Tod Brown.
@Fernando:
I think the way Margaret writes 'those "altar boys" (can I say those words?)' (and obviously not 'altar servers') makes it quite clear that she is being ironic.
And another question: Do the people who hover around here in the comments really seem to you the kind of guys who would endorse "kids who goof around during Mass with their partners in crime, kids that are not dressed properly, kids who are yawning all the way through Mass"??? Have you even read the comments? Just askin'...
Fernando,
Please don't.
Try to have a sense of humor.
"Liturgy (definition: "Work of the People")"
Liturgy is of Greek origin and is correctly translated to mean something along the lines of "at the service of the people".
My Greek professor went on for an entire period on a tangent about how "liturgy" has been variously translated by people trying to impose agenda. His assessment was that it could be compared with our idiomatic "public works," and as such, could be taken to be an act performed by a select group for the good of the entire people. The looser "work of the people" takes that enumerative sense away. At the Council, the latter definition seemed more popular...
Father Tran owes the couple in the lettter an apology for placing such an extreme burden on their hearts. How can he say that he never was singling out the kneeling issue? Those letters state otherwise. I think the Diocese of Orange looks very foolish for placing that statement on their website. It shows that they know they were wrong and it also shows they lie. They should try to dialogue with this parish, if they really care about souls. The very sad truth is that everyone knows they really don't care. Maybe Pope Benedict will!
Joe and Petra,
I happen to remember when these boys were dismissed, they did not take it lighly, were is the humor on that?
To these boys it was very special to be serving at daily Mass, even when it would entail getting up every day at 6:00 a.m. in the morning. Them being dismissed and then someone making bad jokes about their ordeal, is no laghing matter.
I can have a sense of humor, I will show you. Do you guys know why mexican make tamales during Christmas? So we can have something to unwrap.
At the same time there is nothing humorous about this situation, I happen to know a lot of the people, beside the altar boys, who have been affected by the micromanagement of this parish by Father Tran and they are not laghing about it.
Manuel and his brother,
Here's someone who served his first Mass at age 23, a long time ago. Yes, kneeling through much of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Perhaps you will able to find a book called "Kneeling in the Beanfield", the story of an altar boy who returned to his parish as a priest. You might find it uplifting.
I found the picture of you kneeling much more inspiring than the 200-pound "altar girl" with her midriff bare that we have in our parish.
Dios esté con ustedes.
Fernando!
The regular post-ers on this blog are on your side! Really!
Sometimes we get a little sarcastic but that doesn't mean we don't think this situation with Fr. Tran is serious.
You're preaching to the choir, as it were.
Midwestmom,
I agree with your comment about the regular post-ers, but the problem is that once on a while someone comes along who is not on our side and make comments that reflect their point of view, which differst from ours or are not very well thought. I believe that Margaret falls into that catagory and for such for comment she needs to be rebuke. At the same time, if this was a joke, I have not heard her clarification even after one of the altar boys called her to task. I have only heard apologies from other people .
The people at this parish have been going through a living purgatory and not all of them have had the fortitude to stand firm. As soon as Father Johnson retired and the Tridentine Mass ceased to be celebrated at this parish, many people left the parish for an independet church that offers the Tridentine Mass. The ones who have stayed have made legitimate efforts in an attempt to resolve the dictatorship style changes to their practices with not results even after they presented their case to Father Tran with Church documents.
On the mean time, a couple of miles away in the same city of Huntington Beach at Saint Simon and Jude, people are allowed to do as they will when it comes to the liturgy. Bishop Brown has been informed about make abuses and incidents at this parish and it is business as usuall. But if he sees piety and reverence he is quick to crush it at all cost. What a shame!
God bless those altar boys. They obviously have more balls than most the men at that parish. After the Nazis invaded Denmark during World II, they ordered all the Jews to start wearing a yellow Star of David on their clothing. The next day, the queen came out wearing a yellow Star of David and set an example of defiance for the rest of the country. What would Bsp. (gag) Brown and Fr. Tran do if EVERYONE knelt after the Agnus Dei. Unfortunately, another "fruit" of Vatican II's so-called "springtime" is a bunch of castrated sheep.
Are you sure that's the right church in the picture? There's a communion rail, an actual, honest-to-God (no pun intended) Crucifix--no touchdown Jesus--and a rather nice altar, as opposed to a square kitchen table. That, and the Altar Boys are wearing cassocks and surplices and the priest is wearing an adorned chausible in a more traditional style. This is the church that is supressing kneeling?
Where is Bishop Tod Brown? Has anyone noticed he is a no show to the fiasco he created. Hold on! I hear the sound of a fast approaching bus! Screeeeeech! Oooooohhh...too late, Bishop Brown just threw Father Tran under the bus on the Diocesan website! Quick, give him CPR...Catholic Perjury Resuscitation!
Fernando -
I can understand how being so close to the situation it might be hard to see anyone making light of it. However, for some people making jokes is a way to deal with an impossible situation.
Ask any cop - sometimes you have to laugh just to stop the tears.
I feel for the parishoners of St. Mary's by the Sea. It must be wrenching to have to deal with this.
As someone who was raised in a thoroughly post Vatican II though I will say I am somewhat jealous that you EVER had the opportunity to have regular Tridentine Mass. That was pretty darn lucky!
I believe that +Brown and Fr. Tran are mirror worshippers.
They are DiSSenters who are scandalizing the faithful. I wish Rome could crack down on them.
And those letters by Tran. Sheesh, could this guy please put MORE exclamation points! Smash his mirror, I say! With lots of exclamation points!
In addition to the lack of pastoral nature of Tran, and his lack of inclusiveness.
Interesting. How the left is so concerned with "inclusiveness" and "tolerance" but conveniently forget to include and tolerate the traditional catholics.
The road to hell is paved with the skulls of bad bishops.
In following this issue I must admit I find it troubling because I am ambivalent about it. I am a retired military officer, and the one thing I know about obedience is that it requires you to do what you don't want to just because the person telling you to do it has authority to order it.
That being said, it is a bit hard to swallow that priests and bishops back slap and glad hand "Catholic" politicians who wantonly disobey fundamental moral doctrines of the church and then come down like a ton of bricks on a poor old lady or altar boys who want to show reverence for the Real Presence.
This led me to do a little research about the Orange diocese. I went to their web site, and something struck me. I won't say specifically what, but I would as anyone interested to do the following and say what they think. Go to the Diocese of Orange web site and find as much pro life information as you can (find out what office handles it etc.) try and find definitive teaching from the bishop(s) about life issues. Do the same for vocations and religious life. Now do the same at the Diocese of Lincoln site or the Archdiocese of Denver. or even my home Archdiocese of Boston.
I think you will find a difference in emphasis that explains a lot - at least to me.
Fernando,
Nobody here is going to rebuke Margaret because she was - again - being sarcastic. She doesn't really think your sons are "suspicious." She was joking.
As for her not defending herself, she merely hasn't yet gotten back on this blog to read follow-up posts. If and when she does, I'm sure she'll set the record straight. Until then, we'll do it for her.
P.S. Your boys look awesome in their traditional servers cassocks and kneeling! I wish we had them in our parish. You've raised them right, Fernando!
I will simply quote from Abp. Marcel Lefebvre:
"The conciliar church is a schismatic church because it breaks with the Catholic Church that has always been. It has its new dogmas, its new priesthood, its new institutions, its new worship...This is why the founders of the conciliar church insist so much on obedience to today's church, prescinding from yesterday's church as though it no longer existed... To whatever extent pope, bishops, priests, or faithful adhere to this new church, they separate themselves from the Catholic Church."
Local parishioners shouldn’t be the only ones fighting this battle. When I first heard about this story I spent all of five minutes and 82 cents writing the following letter. If everyone would do this the Pope may even consider sending a legate over to slap father Tran around a little bit:
Francis Cardinal Arinze
Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments
Palazzo delle Congregazioni,
00193 Roma, Piazza Pio XII, 10
29 May 2006
Your Eminence,
It is being reported in this country that Fr. Martin Tran, pastor at St. Mary's by the Sea in the Diocese of Orange has announced to his parishioners, with the backing of the Diocese, that kneeling during Mass is a mortal sin. This teaching has not yet been announced in my own Archdiocese (Chicago) and I wondered if your Eminence could tell me if the judgment of mortal sin applies to my family and myself since we always kneel at Mass. If so, would it be necessary for us to confess the abuse in the sacrament of Penance and can we confess it in a general way or should we try to determine exactly how many times we’ve committed the offense? If not, would we be exempt from the teaching in the event we travel to the Diocese of Orange? Will the Archdiocese of Chicago become subject to this new teaching any time soon? I’ve invested a lot of time instilling in my children the importance of kneeling during the Holy Sacrifice and I would have a difficult time trying to explain to them that they should disregard everything I’ve ever told them about this. Finally, I’ve had a hard time trying to find the basis for this new teaching and I wondered if your Eminence could point me to applicable area of the Catechism. It would be of great help when the day comes where I have to re-catechize my children in this area.
Thank you for taking the time to consider my dilemma. I remain,
Yours in Christ,
(Mornac)
I'm missing the point of this tempest in a teapot.
Obviously, there are some real issues in the Roman Catholic church in Southern California. Yet, there are at least a dozen eastern Catholic churches in southern California that you never hear a whisper about. Churches that offer an orthodox Catholic alternative in the midst of Cardinal Mahoney's realm. And I'll bet you that most of those eastern Catholic churches are empty as compared to the Roman Catholic churches in the same area.
I understand the concept of bearing witness. And I do understand that people are reluctant to change. But you'd think that after awhile, Roman Catholics in Southern California would seek something different if they were truly unhappy with the status quo.
Perhaps the old adage about cursing the darkness rather than lighting a candle is applicable here?
Cory:
I'm a parishioner, and yes, that is a picture of St. Mary's by the Sea. However, that is not Father Tran in the picture.
The following is an order form for the Adoremus web site.
http://www.adoremus.org/OrderForm.html
On the order form is a Novena for the Renewal of the Sacred Liturgy. I intend to order copies and pass them out at St. Mary's with a request that we pick a date and all pray the novena as a parish for our parish.
The suggested donation is as follows:
Novenas
$ .50 each (1-10 copies)
$ .25 each (up to 200 copies)
More than 200 novenas, call us for a quote [314-863-8385].
Perhaps our supporters on this blog would join us. Maybe we if we get on our knees and beseech the Good Lord, he will intervene and bring peace back to our parish home.
Fernando, I wasn't "apologizing" for Margaret. I was trying to explain her meaning to someone who is probably too young to understand that particular kind of humor. No offense or patronization was intended.
If Fr Tran is so set on administering the norms of the Church. I hope he is consistent and not giving Holy Communion to those whose mortal sin he is aware of .
RBBA Democrat,
I can only speak for one Eastern Catholic church in Southern California, but until returning to the Traditional Latin Mass, I was a refugee from the abuses of the Novus Ordo in a Maronite Rite Catholic Church for over 8 years. We were blessed with a very holy and devout priest. The two Sunday Masses were always well-attended and the number of other "refugees" continued to increase the entire time I was there.
(Also, because the Maronites have Holy Communion by intinction, EVERYONE must receive on the tongue!)
To Mornac, a little correction: Fr. Tran did not say that kneeling was a mortal sin, he said that disobeying the bishop's directive to refrain from kneeling is a mortal sin. I'm a supporter of the kneelers, by the way.
Dear Former Altar Boy:
I'm glad to hear that your Maronite church was well attended. I go to a tiny eastern Catholic mission. Not so much because of problems in the local Roman Catholic Diocese, but because I like the theological emphasis and liturgy a whole lot more.
Personal experience has been that while many Roman Catholics will complain about problems in what I refer to as "reprobate Diocese", few will actually take any personal action to remove themselves from it. In spite of there being viable alternatives in the same area.
I'm glad that our Maronite bretheren were able to provide you and your family a place of refuge.
"...the Pope may even consider sending a legate over to slap father Tran around a little bit..."
I wanna watch!
"Fr. Tran did not say that kneeling was a mortal sin, he said that disobeying the bishop's directive to refrain from kneeling is a mortal sin."
In this context, that's a distinction without a difference.
Prediction:
Mornac's letter will be a wasted 82 cents. Cardinal Arinze will not bother to answer. Pastor Tran will receive no censure, much less Todd Brown. It will be business as usual, and parishoners will either like it or lump it.
"I will simply quote from Abp. Marcel Lefebvre:"
Ah, the irony of quoting a schismatic denouncing the Catholic Church for being schismatic.
Ah, the irony of Catholics who declare perfect fidelity to a new Church whose liturgical abominations they can no longer believe, obey or follow.
Suzie,pay attention to the letter sent to the Apostolic Nuncio, by the elderly couple the "Carmodys"! You are wrong Suzie. The Carmodys' knocked on the Sacristy door to ask Father Tran if it was a mortal sin if they knelt. He told them "Yes!" Don't assist Bishop Brown who made Father Tran follow every order from headquarters. I suggest that if you want to kneel to write to Bishop Brown and ask him why did he only deceide to change the threat of mortal sin, when their cruel dictatorship was exposed on the Sunday front page of the L.A. Times?
It was amusing to read all the comments here, but they are all for the most part dealing with symptoms of a larger problem.
St Mary's-by-the-Sea has had a long time reputation of being a parish that is very traditional in its practices and the diocese has long HATED that. Fr. Daniel Johnson, the former pastor, protected the parish for nearly 25 years from the assaults that you read about now. Subsequently, the parish was able to grow to at least four times the size it was when Fr. Johnson was assigned there as punishment for being priest who loved tradition.
Since his departure in May 2004, the parish became exposed to the hirelings and wolves of the diocese. The issue is NOT obedience. The issue is intimidation and oppression of the members of the parish to make it come into line with the other NO parishes in the diocese.
I am a former member who had the joy of joining the Church through Fr. Johnson at St Mary's almost ten years ago. I have since moved to a place where I have the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) on a daily basis, but I like many others saw the diocese waiting with sticky and dirty fingers waiting to take St. Mary's apart. The TLM community left almost immediately after the TLM was banished from St. Mary's.
Obedience is of no use when the authority calling for the obedience is acting in bad faith which is excatly what Fr. Tran and Bishop Brown is doing. They are seeking to eviserate St. Mary's in any way possible.
Buddy,
I agree. I also used to attend St. Mary’s. Bishop Tod was only waiting for the retirement of Father Johnson to begin dismantling the Parish.
Something of interest to many, perhaps, who are always used to hearing Abp. Lefebvre in the same breath with 'schism.' Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos, Prefect of the Congregation for the Clergy recently declared to the bishops of SSPX that the Society is not in "formal schism." Surely, he could not have said something like for public consumption, unless he had had papal approval.
The letter I addressed to Cardinal Arinze was correct insofar as I told him that “It is being reported in this country that “Fr. Martin Tran…has announced to his parishioners…that kneeling during Mass is a mortal sin.” I based that statement on the only source I had at the time – The L.A.Times report of May 28 which reads, “Kneeling ‘is clearly rebellion, grave disobedience and mortal sin,’ Father Martin Tran, pastor at St. Mary's by the Sea, told his flock in a recent church bulletin.”
(http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/
la-me-kneel28may28,1,6981595.story?coll=la-
headlines-frontpage&ctrack=1&cset=true)
If the Times has difficulty getting a story straight then I have no problem with them getting caught up in this morass. Does anyone know if they’ve printed a correction or clarification yet?
Buddy and Joe are 100 percent correct--you would hear hundreds of stories like this, if people hadn't left after the Tridentine was taken away.
Personally, if it werent for Father Johnson I dont know WHERE i would be in my faith. I came from the LA diocese (y'all know about them..lol)
and I didnt realize WHAT I was missing, and what i wasnt "GETTING" till i went to one of his masses (accidentally by the way driving down PCH and somehow bumping into it and thinking how it reminded me of one on Catalina..lol)
anyways....after that, I knew I "GOT" my faith, and it wasnt just a word anymore or a ritual. Man, what the average Catholic today is missing, I just cant explain.
At the end of the day, the issue is less about kneeling and more about getting rid of any tradition at all, and silencing "THOSE" people...who produced the likes of Bishop Sheen, whom i hope is beatified VERY soon.
Whats the problem with every diocese having a few Tridentine masses in convenient locations for the populace that want it eh??
Another thing that really gets me (speaking to Manuel Ruiz Jr.) is the fact that all the diocese always want us to be praying for VOCATIONS. And YET they squelch the very devout catholics that this "pool" of diminishing applicants would come from. Its crazy making i tell you, the whole thing is absolutely nuts.
Well, thanks to Father Johnson, my faith will never leave me now and I will fight the good fight no matter HOW unpopular it becomes (which it will be more so in years to come im sure)
Im grateful for what "was" and am sorry for those of you who never experienced it...it was awesome
and I will carry it with me forever.
The few people who stayed WERE the people trying to do things right by the way...seeing as that "other" traditional mass is not in communion with the diocese so to speak (y'all get my meaning)...but I guess trying to do things the right/procedural way makes you the brunt of jokes, mocking, ridicule, etc...
hmmm...who else went thru that??lol
The good news is....you CAN find out which mass is done by Father Luke or Father Mackin...so i just go to those now..lol..both VERY devout, prob trying to keep their jobs there (for our sake..lol)
then the rest of the time i gotta go to either a "regular" mass at one of our fine establishments (y'all should check out Columbans Life Teen..lol)
or i luck out and squish in St. Michaels Abbey---Killians in Mission Viejo isnt bad..hahah..and then theres Saint Vincent de Paul in Huntington but I refuse to go to Simon and Judes..lol
As Victor Lams once quipped, "Hours for the Sacrament of Clarification are from 3 to 3:30 pm every Saturday."
St. Simon and Jude is also known as "Simon and Garfunkle"
I also thought somethin might have been "implied" when someone had mentioned "Jude and Jude" or was that not intentional?? rotf
I have heard them referred to as St. Jiven'and Jude! Poor Sts. Simon and Jude. They are Saints, so we don't have to worry about them rolling over in their grave!
"At the end of the day, the issue is less about kneeling and more about getting rid of any tradition at all,.."
Exactly. Those poor starving souls who remain within the Novus Ordo 'banquet hall' structure scratch around under the "rich man's table," eating any scraps that may fall. It is all very pathetic.
This issue is just a mere fraction of the whole issue of Modernism. We must follow the liturgical norms of Holy Mother Church...not that which dumbs them down...minimalism kills the spiritual life and eventually the soul. Let us be attentive that we remain in Sanctifying Grace by weekly Confession and Holy Communion. Be on guard, the devil is prowling!
RE: ORANGE COUNTY MESS,WHY NOT JUST GO TO THE OUR LADY HELP OF CHRISTIANS CATHOLIC CHAPEL IN GARDEN GROVE THAT OFFERS THE LATIN MASS DAILY THEY HAVE 2 EXCELLENT HOLY PRIESTS,AND THE PASTOR,FR.PEREZ,IS A PILAR OF KNOWLEDGE ON THE TRUE CATHOLIC FAITH,BY THE WAY YOU CAN ONLY KNEEL THERE AT THE COMMUNION RAIL,NO OTHER CHOICE,AND I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT OUR BLESSED MOTHER AND MANY ANGELS ARE PRESENT AT EVERY MASS AND THEY KNEEL,IT HAS BEEN REVEALED TO CERTAIN PRIVELEGED SOULS THAT MANY PRIESTS AND BISHOPS DO GO TO HELL,SO BE SURE NOT TO FOLLOW THEM,PRAY TO THE HOLY SPIRIT FOR GUIDANCE
Bill,
To what diocesis does Our Lady Help of Christians belongs to? I do not see the name of church listed on the Diocesan website.
Based on the modus operatus of Bishop Brown regarding homosexuality, I think it will be proper to call him Bishop Brokeback Brown.
Message to the Holy See:
If it's brown flush it.
FIRST OF ALL ITS NOT A CHURCH ITS A CHAPEL,AND POPE BENEDICT 16 HAS SAID THAT YOU ARE ALLOWED TO GO TO THE CHAPELS AND THIS FULLFILLS YOUR SUNDAY OBLIGATION,ITS NOT UNDER THE DIOCESE,IN THESE EXTRAORDINARY TIMES WHEN THE CHURCH IS IN SUCH TURMOIL,AND SOME BISHOPS HAVE TAKEN AWAY FROM US SOME OF OUR FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS ,I THANK GOD THAT SOME OF THESE TRADITIONAL CHAPELS EXIST,AND YES,THEY ARE ALLOWED BY THE POPE REMEMBER THAT THE COUNCIL OF TRENT IN 1560 SAID THAT THE MASS AS IT WAS AT THAT TIME WAS NEVER TO BE ALTERED,THIS WAS BINDING ,AND LOOK AT IT NOW,IN OUR LADY HELP OF CHRISTIANS THIS IS THE MASS THAT IS SAID,THE TRADITIONAL LATIN MASS,YOU COULD TALK TO FR.PEREZ YOURSELF IF YOU WANT TO,CALL 714-547-9944
I was under the understanding that when a priest looses his faculties he is not to be referred as Father anymore and from I know that is the case with Reverend Perez. Correct me if I am wrong.
When Pope Benedict made the statement you refer to he was referring to SSPX not to “independent” chapels. Rome has not spoken regarding “independent” chapels such as Our Lady Help of Christians. Also, who is Reverend Perez’s Bishop? What Missal does he use?
I am bothered by the people who left Saint Mary’s and went to Our Lady Help of Christians. They seem to not realize that Bishop Brown is elated with their action since they are not at Saint Mary’s anymore to question his actions. They are now at their little cocoon pretending that everything is fine and dandy, while Bishop Brown continues to destroy the faith, the liturgy and geoperdacies the salvation of countless souls. But history repeats itself, wasn’t Christ abandoned by the apostles at the Garden of Gethsemane when he needed them the most? Same thing happened during the Mexican Religious persecution, many fled the country, but others stayed and their blood became the seeds of faith for new generations.
HE HAS NOT LOST HIS FACULTIES AND THE 2ND PRIEST THERE HAD PERMISSION TO RELOCATE THERE FROM HIS BISHOP,GO LOOK UP WHAT IT SAYS IN THE COUNCIL OF TRENT RE MASS SHALL NOT BE CHANGED IS THIS NOT BINDING?ITS THERE FOR YOU TO READ,THIS MASS IS VALID.EVER HEARD OF FR SANTAN PINTO,SOLT MINISTRIES? A TRULY GIFTED PRIEST WHO SAYS BOTH MASSES,HE SAID ITS GOOD TO GO TO THE LATIN MASS,THAT IT IS VALID.AND I THINK MAYBE THAT MANY CATHOLICS ARE FEELING ABANDONDED BY THE CHURCH
Bill,
Please stop using all caps. It is very annoying.
Bill
You are dodging the question, who is his Bishop? He is not listed on the Diocesan Directory of the Diocese of Orange which is the diocese in which he has his chapel. What Missal does he use? You have told me that he has not lost his faculties; I am in possession of letter from the Prior General Msgr. Gilles Wach of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest which says otherwise. I have not claimed that the Masses Reverend Perez celebrates are not valid but they are illicit. These are two different things. When you attend an illicit Mass you do not fulfill your Sunday obligation. When you refer to the Latin Mass, which Latin Mass are you referring to, the Latin Indult Mass? If that is the case I agree. At the same time you did not address the other comment that I made regarding the fact that when the people who were attached to the Indult Mass left Saint Mary’s they made Bishop Brown a favor because he got rid those who hold reverence and piety in high esteem. Does it make sense for a Bishop to give permission for a priest to relocate to an “independent” chapel? That would be canonically impossible since a bishop can only release a priest to another bishop not an to an “independent” church or to another priest.
I agree with Fernando, and unlike what many think of me, i'm not interested in being ex-communicated..lol
The reason I DONT go there Bill is because no matter how you slice it, its not part of the diocese and not in line with Rome..I cant in good conscience do that. No matter what.
I will stay and fight for what I believe in. If everyone hadn't left to go over there, maybe this would be a done deal by now. sorry but i had to say my piece about that.
Its like saying "well if you dont like America go to another country"
how bout fighting for the country you love?? how bout that?? instead of running away
Bravo Collen, that’s the kind of Trads that I love.
"I DONT go there Bill is because no matter how you slice it, its not part of the diocese and not in line with Rome."
That's exactly why he goes there, because to be "in line with Rome" is to be right back in the laps of bishops like Brown and priests like Tran. They're "in line with Rome." And, if they're not in line, Rome has not not, nor will Rome move to correct them.
Hollingworth,
When people like Bill leave, we become weaker and the other side grows stronger because there is one less person to oppose their nonsense. I know it is nice to participate at a Mass with reverence and piety even if it is illicit. But we are members of the Militant Church, not the Triumphant Church. How I hunger to the moment in of my life in which, God willing, I will be a member of the Triumphant Church and have the privilege of participating at the heavenly and eternal liturgy side by side with the angels and the saint. Meanwhile I have to be at this valley of tears and participate in Masses in which women are dresses in skimpy outfits, wearing pants that they were only able to put on with butter and they can only take off with a potato peeler.
"Meanwhile I have to be at this valley of tears and participate in Masses in which...etc,
No you don't! You can, presently speaking, satisfy your Sunday Mass obligation even at an SSPX chapel, and not be in schism for doing it. You can even give a tithe there. Don't give me this "church militant" stuff.
WWJD??...heheh
He wouldnt think attending "Our Lady Help of Christians" to be standing up for ADORING him in the "diocese" as it is outside it PERIOD (and i know this cuz i just spoke to HIM about it)
lol...so there!!!
"Can you not watch one hour with me??"
"Will you also go away??"
(i mean "run away")
"I know it is nice to participate at a Mass with reverence and piety even if it is illicit. But we are members of the Militant Church, not the Triumphant Church."
I will refrain from expressing in stronger language the contempt I feel for this above remark and those that follow it. The "Church Militant" is very clearly defined in the Catechism of Trent, viz. "The Church militant is the society of all the faithful still dwelling on earth, and is called militant, because it wages eternal war with those with those implacable enemies, the world, the flesh, and the devil."
All the "faithful," who are still dwelling on earth, are in the Church militant.
The Novus Ordo churches, if anything, are part of the 'Church apostate,' having, in most cases, all but totally acquiesced to the world, the flesh, and the devil. But as St. Athanasius said at the height of the Aryan heresy: "They may have the churches, but we have the Faith."
FERNANDO AND COLEEN:I WILL SHOW ALL THIS TO FR. PEREZ AS THE ACCUSED SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO CONFRONT HIS ACCUSERS,AND I NEVER SAID I LEFT ST. MARYS,I SAID IF YOU WERE HAVING TROUBLE,WHY NOT GO SOMEWHERE ELSE,I WAS NEVER A MEMBER OF ST MARYS AS I DONT LIVE IN YOUR"SURF CITY",I USED TO AND STILL DO SOMETIMES GO TO ST.PETER CHANEL,BUT I GO TO OUR LADY HELP OF CHRISTIANS WHENEVER I CAN,I HAVE HAD THIS DISCUSSION WITH FR.PEREZ WHEN WE FIRST STARTED GOING THERE AND HE SAID IT IS VALID AND UNDER THE POPE(JP2)AT THAT TIME,AND YOU COLEEN NEED TO TAKE A COURSE IN LOGIC IF YOU THINK THIS IS LIKE SAYING IF YOU DONT LIKE AMERICA GO SOMEWHERE ELSE,ITS APPLES AND ORANGES,DONT GET ME STARTED ON DEFENDING AMERICA,I WILL DEFEND IT TILL MY LAST BREATH IF NEED BE AGAINST ALL ENEMYS WHOMEVER THEY MAY BE,INCLUDING OUR "INVASION" FROM THE "SOUTH",DONT EVEN GO THERE,AND AS FOR GOING AWAY,I SAY AGAIN THE MODERN POST VAT2 CHURCH IS THE ONE THAT WENT AWAY,WE NEVER LEFT,AND YOU VINNY,IF YOU DONT LIKE MY CAPS,DONT READ 'EM AND HOLLINGSWORTH YOU SOUND LIKE SOMEONE WITH A CLEAR THINKING MIND,WE NEED TO PRAY FOR THESE OTHER PEOPLE,AND I WILL HAVE A TALK WITH FR. PEREZ AND SEE IF HE IS A VALID PRIEST,GET IT RIGHT FROM THE SOURCE INSTEAD OF ALL THIS HEARSAY
Guess what?? I dont live in surf city either!!!
So I also could have just blended into another church in my area.
However, I didnt think God wanted me doing that. I'm glad i stayed.
And just to clarify--I'm not accusing your priest of anything--all I know, is that i TALKED to the people at the diocese and they told me your church is not listed in the diocese of churches because you ARENT in alignment with the Roman Catholic Church. If thats incorrect info, please clarify that with the Orange Diocese and perhaps Cardinal Arinze.
I was just explaining to you why I, personally, didnt see that as an out, as I DO want to remain in the good graces of God and the ONE TRUE CHURCH.
You can slice all those other things how you choose...I know what Im doing and WHY...you may do as you please, its a free country
and I just seek the truth,and I understand that at the council of trent in 1560 it was affirmed that the mass as it was then-latin mass-was never to be changed or altered,and that this is binding,and vat 2 or nobody else has authority to change it,and St.Padre Pio asked to be excused from ever saying it,and never did say it,and in fact about vat2 a direct quote of his"for pitys sake,just end it quickly"I will speak to Fr.perez about this
"your church is not listed in the diocese of churches"
So, apparently, in this woman's mind, not be "listed" is not to be "aligned," even though the "one True Church" has made ample provision,(albeit reluctantly), for those allegedly not in that church to, nevertheless, be able to satisfy their mass obligations and the practical requirements of Catholic worship. I will certainly take my chances with these supposedly unaligned churches, listed or not.
and its okay...i much prefer "little missy" to "woman" if ya dont mind
(it sounds soooo old--which im not..lol)
yes i understand all the provisions for all the things--and opus dei--and on and on...lol--and certain fathers that get certain permission for not poverty, obedience, celibacy...but for 2 of the three...in certain circumstances and on and on I GET THAT....but i also think you "get" me and my point of wanting to stay in line. You get it and i know it.
As i say, no big deal, you guys can do as you want. But i STIIIIILLLLL dont see the problem with one Latin Tridentine High Mass in alignment with the diocese in all of flipping orange county (save the tourist trap of a highly popular mission)....
i mean out of HUNDREDS of churches....ya cant have ONE thats not an "offshoot" so to speak??
truly, its completely utterly and bombastically ridiculous...no matter what "outs" you give it.
The above was my humble opinion and i dont represent the diocese..lol
(o if only.....)
and b4 someone gets all technical on me(as seems to be the case OFTEN) im sure there might be one in San Diego....im talkin central orange county with a church on every block!
Do y'all know that people used to come from LONG BEACH and SEAL BEACH to St. marys JUST so they could attend a Tridentine??
Its a mass John Paul AND Benedict enjoy--so i stiiiiiiiiiiiiiill am not getting the problem...lol
Also, if people want to say its cuz the "populace" doesnt want it??
Then explain to me standing room only at San Juan...explain to me why when st.marys had it..same thing..
EXPLAIN....because it IS wanted...people dont go cuz ITS NOT BEING OFFERED ANY LONGER..grrrrr..lol
the pat answer IS NOT "offshoots/schisms"....
thats called "o well, whadya gonna do ya know...whatever....what can we do"
thats what THATS called(uggh)
there is also a Tridentine Latin Mass in Glendale Ca.St. Gabriel archangel chapel,Fr.Moleto,Sundays and holydays,I believe,and last fall Fr.Grunner the Fatima priest said one at Our Lady Help of Christians,rare and wonderful
Thanks for the info Bill i really appreciate it(truly) and its good to keep in the back of my mind.
Its just that, as I say, Glendale is not in orange county...and between working and care-giving its impossible for me to get down there.
I appreciate your effort in any case, im truly not a "bad" person...lol
Colleen,
I 'm giving you a moratorium of one "lol" per comment.
Colleen,
Just kidding! Do what you like.
Joe
okay, just as long as you agree with me and my band of merry men.
How many rotf lmho off would you like?
I never thought for a minute you were a bad person,I dont know you how could I possibly judge you,if anything the fact that you are a catholic person trying to do the right thing makes me think the opposite,bad people: saddam hussien,hitler,stalin,all aclu members,hillary clinton,etc,its a shame all us catholics cant be on the same page,I have known some truly holy priests,but the liberal press does'nt know they exist,and the lol's are cute,shows you have a sense of humor,sometimes needed in this world and esp so.cal(land of fruits and nuts)
Can i count on your vote on tuesday??
You can count on my vote Colleen because I think you were right about Bishop Tod Brown's publicity stunt.
what are you running for?
Just a few words more on the phrase "alignment with Rome." Those who boast of that alignment must remember that they suit up, and play on the same team with following shining hierarchical exemplars who are solidly in in communion with present day Rome:
1)LA's Cardinal Mahony about whom little more need be said
2) Bernard Law, erstwhile Abp. of Boston, infamous champion and protector of pedophile priests, now rector (gasp!)of St. Mary Major in Rome
3) Patrick Ziemann, former bishop of Santa Rosa, a homosexual who antics and poor management bankrupted that diocese; and who, to my knowledge, is still a priest in good standing with Rome.
4) Fr. Richard McBrien of Notre Dame whose patently heretical writings are found in diocesan newspapers throughout the land.
5) Bp. Sylvester Ryan of Monterey who despises Chruch tradition in most of its forms, and who hired as a consultant for the diocese one Fr. Robert Trupia, serial molester of dozens of children in the Diocese of Tucson, three years after the latter had been discharged from that diocese. He cost that diocese millions of dollars in lawsuit reparation. Ryan was, until a short time ago, the president of CA's Conf. of Bishops.
6) Cardinal Walter Kasper, prefect for the Congregation on Christian Unity(?) who can not even be fairly called a Catholic.
These are six examples of, perhaps, 60,000 that could be cited. The price of "alignment with Rome" is a heavy one to pay.
And Jesus, hollingsworth. You forgot to mention Jesus on your list.
I been following this whole thing with the Help of my good friend Colleen.. Hi Colleen!!!! and well this has just gotten to be soooo much fun and i am glad this is all coming to light... and I will continue to Be the Defender of Our Faith...
Let's encourage everyone from all over the country to call Bishop Brown and tell him how ridiculous it is to give people a hard time for the "disobedience" of kneeling for our Lord against his (the bishop's) wishes.
The bishop's phone number is 714-282-3000
The fax number for the bishop's office is 714-282-3029
The bishop is away this week, but you can leave a voice mail for him.
We have already called and they seem to be getting a lot of calls, so the more the better!
Thanks.
"Let's encourage everyone from all over the country to call Bishop Brown and tell him how ridiculous it is to give people a hard time for the "disobedience" of kneeling..."
40 years have passed since the Council, and many of you still don't get it. 100,000 concerned 'kneelers' could call or fax Brown and he would not care or move to act on your behalf. Why? Because he's card-carrying member of the "True Church" and all of his diocesan churches are "on the list." He, like Colleen, "is aligned" correctly.
Hi "Hollingsworth",
I would say I "get it", but I still think sometimes we have to do the little that is within our power to do. The "retraction" (if one could call it that) and some other recent events prove that negative publicity does have some impact. Please don't discourage people from doing whatever little they can do. Thank you.
Fr. Tran is one of the social apostles that has lost it. This liberal nonsense is one of the main reasons that 80% of the catholics do not believe in the true presence of our lord in the eucharist. I would advise those senior folks to run, not walk to the nearest Society of Pius X chapel to receive the old traditional mass and faith. Forget all of the novelties that are taking place in the church since Vatican II.
Good luck.
Is this thread still going?? heheh
anyways--jes Brown is gone..its retreat time(uggh--him and Tran can compare notes again)
Hi Chris good to see you yee Defender of all things good and Holy!!
awesome.
Hollingsworth...while i get your jest, yes I am obliged to stay "in line"...
heres the truth: Part of my faith involves OBEDIENCE (as you well know as a member of the RCC??)...
which is why I AM obedient to the church hierarchy...i have no problem with that whatsoever..I dont run away, i dont fly to other faiths, churches, offshoots, etc...
HOWEVER I am still allowed to peaceably point out errors and abuses that are being committed in my Church, as in any other thing (job, etc...).and indeed i feel it a DUTY to do so. THAT is why I wont leave the hierarchal structure i am bound by GOD under!!! You can see it how you like, I know where I stand.
For example, people tell me all the time "well how do you know your priest that you are confessing to isnt a pedophile?? What if you found out later he WAS"..or some such.
My answer, as in the case in fighting for the clarification of what is liturgical "abuse"..my answer is:
I am not held responsible for that. The priest is, and whoa be him, for taking on the role of priest and misrepresenting(or whatever)..thats on him and him alone.
MY PART in the church of God is to follow the precepts God has laid down. My confession is no less valid.
I did what I was supposed to do. I followed the "hierarchy" that is laid down IF and big IF you truly believe in all things RCC...
now my answer is the same in all matters you presented...yes the old mass, yes this that and the other..but the answer is NOT to do our own thing, our own church (whatever you want to call it) thats NOT the answer. And perhaps if so many people didnt find it so...our numbers would be bigger (sigh).
In any case, i think we have all exhausted this subject.
and Bill (hee hee) im running for Tod Browns secretary. See?? i called there a month ago about "other" issues unrelated and the gal who answered the phone was such a SNOT (not kidding) that i've decided in honor of the "spirit" of vatican 2 and all things ecumenical that a more out-reaching friendly type oughta be doing that job. So you can put me down as a write-in candidate, thanks so much.
I used to go to Saint Mary's when father Johnson said the traditional latin mass. I'm sure he would
have been extremely upset if we would have stood up at this time in the mass! How incredibly ironic. Those who want to show the true faith publicly are told they are in "mortal sin."
My dear fellow Catholics,so much of what is going on in the Church could be explained if you could read the small 109 page book "AA 1025 The Memoirs of an Anti- Apostle"by Marie Carey. I have it and read it many years ago and it is still available as I have seen it at a local (in Anaheim) catholic bookstore. It tells of the destruction (attempted anyway) of the church from within. I would also recommend that you suscribe to the monthly Catholic newspaper"Catholic Family News" to see some of the things really going on in the Church,things you will never hear preached from the pulpit,at least most pulpits.
Hi Bill, Im not saying your wrong about disturbing things in the church (I am a huge Father Malachi Martin fan)..and love all things "conspiracy"
Im just explaining why I choose to express my unrest following a different route. And yes Jose, Johnson IS (unfortunately) aware of all that has happened(and im sure its not helping him).
I now go to Our Lady of the Angels in arcadia
(sspx chapel). If anyone is interested it is on the southwest corner of duarte road and temple city blvd. It really pains me to hear about all the sad things that are going on in Saint Mary's. I remember going there every sunday when my daughter was a few months old. She is now 9 years old and I have three other sons now!
"I would advise those senior folks to run, not walk to the nearest Society of Pius X chapel to receive the old traditional mass and faith."
And if not to an SSPX chapel, then to any "independent" chapel where the traditional mass is honored and served.
This schismatic tendency is against the will of God. Hollingsworth, you are openly scandalous to the faith of innocent people. Cut it out.
Sorry, Kathy, Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos has already informed the bishops of the Society that they are not in "formal schism." He implies quite strongly that they never were. You need also to read quotes from Cardinal Cassidy and from Msgr. Perl, Secretary of the Opus Dei Commission and others. I prefer to remain "openly scandalous," and look for every opportunity to be more so, if being "scandalous" means informing Catholics that they are under no obligation to follow and obey queers, perverts and apostates from the True Faith.
The Catholic Church is the True Faith, and it is holy.
yes the Catholic Church is the true faith,and it is holy,but remember that Jesus asked what would He find left of it when He returned to earth,and while the Catholic faith is holy,remember that all "churchmen"(priests,bishops et al) are not holy
No, Jesus did not ask if He would find the Church. He asked whether He would find faith on the earth, and He did not mean that the answer would be no. He said that He founded the Church on St. Peter: "And the jaws of hell shall not prevail against it."
The Catholic Church is holy despite the sins of its people. Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone.
I made a horrible gaffe. I meant Ecclesiae Dei Commission, not "Opus Dei."
I made a horrible gaffe. I meant Ecclesiae Dei Commission, not "Opus Dei."
Honestly, that should be the least of anyone's worries. We should all be working on our own souls, and doing our best to change the Church from the inside, the way faithful people do.
Kathy: I did not say He would not find the Church,I said how much of it would He find left,"cast the 1st stone" I am not casting any stones but unless you are deaf dumb and blind you must see all the goings on with the clergy in trouble with the law,the legal authorities are casting the stones,some of them pretty big stones,and I have not left the church,I just prefer the Latin Mass, and I am not just a "Sunday Catholic" you watch your stones,you have no idea what my spiritual life is,you dont know me,you dont
"to change the Church from the inside." Do any of you have any recordable successes in this regard? I myself have zero anecdotal evidence that faithful Catholics working "from the inside" have made any difference at all.
Look through Butler's Lives of the Saints. Every page.
Bill, I don't think you are lukewarm. You are right, I don't know you, but I doubt you're lukewarm.
I do think that we head in the wrong direction when we look for the "perfect" Church. It is not part of the Creed that the Church is perfect. It is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. Anyone with any sense will stay in the Ship of the Apostles, the Barque of Peter.
"Look through Butler's Lives of the Saints. Every page."
Please, Kathy, look before you leap. You know perfectly well that I was referring to changes accomplished by Cathlolics within the Novus Ordo Church in the last 40 years.
Kathy:my whole point is that the "novus ordo" church has,if not left the ship of the apostles,sure has 1 foot out of the boat,do you really think if St.pius x were the pope any of this would have happened?Yes,I think the novus ordo mass is valid (barely)(although I know priests who would disagree)but I say that the latin mass is the one favored by God.my oponion.I am sure that you are a pious lady and please dont take it personal,here we are arguing with ourselves,while how many protestants,jews,muslems, hindus,hare-krishnas,and only God knows who else,and o yes,catholics too are dying and being sent to perdition,we should be trying to save them,butlers lives of the saints,hmnn...how many of those saints do you think would agree that this current catholic novus ordo is in the ship of the apostles? I know catholics,some family members too,who are Sunday Catholics,and if you had this discussion they would say,"yeah,maybe your right,but i dunno,Fr Jones at St. Gavictus said everythings hunky-dory and dont worry about it,by the way what time are the Lakers(or whoever)playing?here we are ,the choir arguing about what songs to sing,and all these others still walking around in the dark. Kathy,I will include you in my prayers and adorations,not that I think you are in dire straights,heck you might be 10x better than me for all I know,but we all need to pray for each other,and push each other up the ladder that leads tyo Heaven.God Bless.
that last line should say TO Heaven,so now you know I never won any spelling-bees
We all need to pray for each other,and push each other up the ladder that leads to Heaven.
Thanks for your prayers, Bill.
Hollingsworth and Bill are both making a big historical mistake. At every time and place, the Catholic Church had problem people. I'm one of them and so are you, whoever you are. Only the Blessed Virgin Mary and her Divine Son are free from sin. The rest of us all contribute to all the problems of the Church in our own way.
What is the solution? Same as always: prayer, penance, patience, charity.
By these means and BECAUSE of any current sufferings, we will be made saints by the grace of God. Soon we will be able to make positive contributions that not only help the Church but overcome problems.
Who do MANY priests and bishops attribute their deeper faith to? Blessed Teresa of Calcutta. Little Mother Teresa. Five foot nothing, but FAITHFUL.
and what did mother Teresa say when asked what was the most grievous wrong in the world today? She answered Communion in the hand!with all the wars hunger etc she said Communion in the hand!because all these other things are man doing to man,but Communion in the hand is man doing to God,no comparison,and how did this whole thing start? with that huntington beach chapel,no kneeling,what do you think MT would have thought of that?perhaps Bishop Brown,Rev Tran should try what you suggest,pray to Mother Teresa,.they might listen to you,certainly not to me,perhaps you could suggest this to them.go ahead it was your suggestion,shoot 'em an email or better yet call 'em. want their ph#?I can look it up in an OC phone book and post it,only if you want.
And Kathy 1 other thing the Council of Trent said the Mass as it was at that time was never to change,the Latin Mass,how is it that Cardinal Bugnini, Vat2,later found to be a freemason,was the chief architect behind the whole novus ordo mass,will you believe a freemason or the holy fathers at the council of trent.yes prayer,penance, fasting,and maybe pray to St. Anthony of Padua,finder of lost things,especially lost faith,for the church
Yes, Msgr. Bugnini, (don't think he was made a cardinal, though), in company with six Protestant "observers," fashioned this Protestant-oriented mass rite. Together, they sought to remove anything from the old rite that might offend Protestants, particularly the sacrificial aspects of the Old Mass. Bugnini, as Bill has stated, was almost certainly a Freemason, or very much in sympathy with Freemasonry. He is the only high ranking Vatican official, in my limited knowledge, who had the dubious distinction of being hired and fired by two popes. The Novus Ordo Missae must eventually be thrown on the ash heap.
if he was not a cardinal I stand corrected,I shall try to look it up and/or ask Fr. Perez next time I see/talk to him.but whatever he was he has a lot he will have to answer for,as will we all
Yes, I keep hearing that quote attributed to Blessed Teresa, but I have never actually seen it in any book about her. It sounds like one of those rumors--unreliable, like rumors that so-and-so was a Freemason.
The "Novus Ordo" is the normative Latin Rite. Let's call it by its real name, the Missa Normativa. The Holy Father's highest agenda is reforming it. I can't wait to see the NEW "new springtime!!"
"It is impossible to be just to the Catholic Church. The moment men cease to pull against it they feel a tug towards it. The moment they cease to shout it down they begin to listen to it with pleasure. The moment they try to be fair to it they begin to be fond of it. But when that affection has passed a certain point it begins to take on the tragic and menacing grandeur of a great love affair."
- GK Chesterton
I have no expectation that our struggle with the post-Vatican II church will take on "the tragic and menacing grandeur of a great love affair." I have listened to it now for 40 years with growing displeasure.
Try love, Hollingsworth.
Kathy:real love is correcting those in error,in a loving way
Kathy: a quick quiz: which pope said the smoke of satan has entered the Church? or is that also just one of those rumors too?
Kathy,
Try avoiding inanities.
Kathy:real love is correcting those in error,in a loving way
Bill, that's what I'm trying to do. Hollingsworth is trying to catch fish in Jesus' pond, and I'm trying to keep him away because he is wrong. The Catholic Church deserves our respect and fidelity. That is where we find the Lord.
Bill, are you talking about the Modernist crisis? That was a century ago. Today's problems must be responded to today. And one of today's problems is the tendency to schism.
well it all goes back to finding the real truth,and looking at the Church today you have to admit its too modern,as you know pope St. Pius X was completely against modernism and liberalism,and Paul VI said the smoke of satan entered the Church,and I haven't heard any pope declare it has left.why dont they say the St.Michael Archangel prayer at the end of masses like they used to? pope Leo XIII composed it after a vision while praying in front of the altar after saying mass,to invoke his protection for the Church,now they (vatII)took it out and see the result,you cant have rose colored glasses and think everythings ok,why dont you call Fr.perez and talk to him,and by the way I know the priest who was Mother Teresa's spiritual director,Fr Santan Pinto,SOLT Ministries,and he is a very good source of good spiritual insight,perhaps you could email him,if you want, I will give it to you
Bill, if these spiritual directors are really good then they will give good advice. And the good advice is: stay in the Catholic Church.
In answer to your earlier question I think that the quotation about the smoke of satan is a rumor.
all 3 of those things I told you are true and I never left the Catholic Church,since I am a cradle Catholic,and never never never will leave it
Kathy: "Bill, are you talking about the Modernist crisis? That was a century ago. Today's problems must be responded to today. And one of today's problems is the tendency to schism."
Ok, don't listen to me. Go ahead and be inane. "modernist crisis...a century ago." Really!
Hollingsworth, it's hard to discuss anything important with someone who thinks love, the Lord's command, is "inane".
Bill, I'm glad you'll never leave the Catholic Church. I was hoping that was true.
Kathy:why would you even think I would leave the Catholic faith? I have never even considered it for even a moment.I have a ? for you,do you recieve Communion in the hand? Schism? I have talked to priests that are of the oponion that the post VatII Church is in schism.
Bill, there is only one Catholic Church. Those priests are wrong.
Commenting by HaloScan
