HaloScan.com - Comments

I see we're drifting back to Dick Cheney's "Gitmo is practically a Tropical Resort" meme.
e_five | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 11:04 am | #

I think that if they like it so much at Gitmo, they can stay there. I'm not suggesting that they belong there; but merely that I'd have no problem if my tax dollars went to such a worthy vacation for the two gentlemen. They can get back with us in a few years to tell us if their attitude changes.

I hear the interrogations are lovely this time of year.
Doctor Biobrain | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 11:14 am | #

There is a type of personality that has gained power in this country, and it was nurtured on a diet of American culture: me first because I DESERVE IT, shoot first think later, fundamental entitlement just because, hedonism, worship of youth and raw physical power, contempt for introspection at any deep level, insensitivity to others and an unawareness of how others contribute to one's life.
And now that this spoiled fantasy way of life is being threatened by a shrinking world, the beast is a screamin and revealing it's true nature. It had to happen sooner or later. Now it's time to clean up this mess and for Americans to face themselves. It ain't pretty
s | 09.29.06 - 11:16 am | #

And they actually let Steyn leave? Lost chances and missed opportunities....
anonymous | 09.29.06 - 11:17 am | #

Read below - this is why I have given up on this country. Work for democrats to be elected? They are all scum bags!

Senate Approves $70B for War Spending
WASHINGTON (AP) - The Senate unanimously approved $70 billion more for military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan Friday as part of a record Pentagon budget. The bill, now on its way to the White House for President Bush's signature, totals $448 billion. It was passed by a 100-0 vote after minimal debate.
dd | 09.29.06 - 11:23 am | #

Gelnn, I've never seen a good summary of who the Gitmo internees are and how they were rounded up. Given the administrations lack of success in prosecuting anyone and the dribbling out of people deemed to be not guilty of anything, I think this is an obvious, but neglected piece of the puzzle. If the detainees are basically a bunch of random people rounded up hastily then that makes the arguments for torture even more problematic.
Rich | 09.29.06 - 11:26 am | #

Since nobody else says it, I'll say it.

"One sand-nigger is pretty much the same as any other sand-nigger so what's your problem?"

That's their TRUE feelings about attacking Iraq instead of Al-Qida.

That's their TRUE feelings about profiling.

That's their TRUE feelings about detaining people who never had anything to do with terrorism, just because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

That's their TRUE feelings period. They are still trying to dominate the niggers. Too bad for them that Africans-Americans are sort of off limits these days, at least in the more obvious ways.

But they know that won't play will on TV, so they say more complicated things. But that's what they're thinking.
Alan | 09.29.06 - 11:26 am | #

i think this kind of thing scares me more than anything else... because it is becoming so common and accepted. it's not a problem with a few individuals - it's a problem with our culture. and our culture affects us in ways we don't understand or notice. like philip zimbardo says, "you can't be a sweet cucumber in a vinegar barrel". i fear we're in the middle of a "stanford prison experiment" or the "milgram experiment"... and it'bringing out the worst in all of us.
selise | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 11:27 am | #

There's a word for this sort of thing: sociopathy

Rob
Desert Son | 09.29.06 - 11:28 am | #

For a quick pick me up read this.
clio | 09.29.06 - 11:28 am | #

Couple of questions:

I'd like to know about Hewitt's employer(s). Who sign his checks? Where does the money come from?

Who are the corporate sponsors that advertise on Hewitt's show?

Any individual/government money funding this show?

How do these guys get access to Gitmo so easily?
ZDP | 09.29.06 - 11:31 am | #

dd - I understand your frustration, but voting against this bill only means "Democrats voted not to give our troops needed money to get equipment...blah blah blah." You know that is what would happen.

The only way is to take back one of the houses of Congress from Republicans. As Glenn put it, "In the real world, one has to either choose between two more years of uncontrolled Republican rule, or imposing some balance -- even just (a) logjam -- on our Government with a Democratic victory. "
Bryan Hayward | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 11:31 am | #

Re: Sociopathy.
"The sociopathic personality has "a radar for people's vulnerabilities, sociopaths can readily manipulate, exploit, control, deceive and intimidate others... Emotionally shallow, they seem incapable of shame, guilt, loyalty, love or any persistently sincere emotion."
-- Maxmen/Ward, Essential Psychopathology.
Sometimes whole groups of people, whole societies, begin to personify what are usually considered individual mental disorders. America today can arguably be considered a manifestation of antisocial personality disorder, writ large.
CarolynC | 09.29.06 - 11:35 am | #

But they know that won't play will on TV, so they say more complicated things. But that's what they're thinking.

I have to agree. Deep, unacknowledged racism is the only explanation that's made sense to me of what's happened to the Republican party.

If Americans could tell two Arabs apart, we'd have never gone into Iraq, would we?

We wouldn't spout utter bullshit like "they're crazed maniacs who will stop at nothing to destroy us all!" If we were serious about terrorism, the argument would go more along the lines of "they're militaristic assholes who are killing people to further their personal goals."

Not as easy to grab political power when you tell the truth about the enemy.
prunes | 09.29.06 - 11:36 am | #

"To sit around chortling about how great these detainees have it and how grateful they should be requires a sociopathic derangement that is nothing short of grotesque."

Glenn, you've described them here perfectly. May I use this when my students here in the Gulf, most of them Arab and most of them Muslim, ask me what Americans have against them? "Well, girls, it's hard to say exactly how it happened, but the country's been taken over by a group of people suffering from 'a grotesque sociopathic derangement.'"
Lodge | 09.29.06 - 11:37 am | #

Is the Bush-Cheney administration serious about winning wars? Billmon says not.
http://billmon.org/archives/002763.html
If their war powers aren't the means for winning wars, then one suspects that it's all the other way around: the war is the means for gaining the war powers.

As "Balkination" has pointed out, both international law and the U.S. constitution were designed for wars of finite duration. The Bush-Cheney strategist have realized that an endless war gives them endless war powers. Or am I just being paranoid? There doesn't seem to be any other explanation for invading Iraq. I wish like hell that I believed it were "all about the oil."
sysprog | 09.29.06 - 11:38 am | #

The Senate just granted Bush dictatorial powers with the passage of the tribunal bill. It's a very sad day in this nation, which I no longer recognize. As for the two idiots celebrating indefinite detention, loss of habeas and torture—very frightening.
Leslie | 09.29.06 - 11:39 am | #

CarolynC,

About the widespread manifestation, it could be.

I wonder, sometimes, though, if there isn't also a component that is plain ignorance (and it may be that ignorance and sociopathy go hand in hand).

While it may be that many people are moving, as a larger consciousness, toward socipathological behavior, I wonder how many are simply unaware, for whatever reason. Maybe they don't know that torture has just been given the A-OK. Maybe they were never taught that hurting people is wrong. Maybe they were never taught two wrongs don't make a right.

Then again, maybe those aspects are, themselves, signposts along the road of a more widespread sociological malady.

I don't know.

Rob
Desert Son | 09.29.06 - 11:40 am | #

America today can arguably be considered a manifestation of antisocial personality disorder, writ large.

I think its more a manifestation of attention deficit disorder myself.
Paul Dirks | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 11:40 am | #

I can't believe this shit. I go and do my anti-war marches, I think and plan and hope and read and think again about how I could possibly have a chance to keep this administration from attacking Iran.

Then something like this comes along, and I'm like, "Maybe I was focussing on the wrong thing." Maybe it doesn't matter who we are fighting, if the neo-con-enabler president can do this in our own country.

Shit like this makes me feel like a chump. I don't even know how to fight this.

This was like Alito, only even worse. People planned for Alito. At least I had the sense that people (the ACLU, People for the American Way, MoveOn, many Democrats) had planned to oppose him, even if it didn't work. In this case I don't even have the sense that anyone planned anything. They mostly just let it happen.

And this looks worse than Alito. At least when Alito dies the country will be done with him. This bill could hang on for centuries.
atheist | 09.29.06 - 11:43 am | #

Paul Dirks,

Yeah, that's what I was wondering. Although, I do think we have more than our fair share of sociopaths.

Those two guys referenced in Glenn's post? My money's on sociopaths.

I swear, some days, I really don't understand how we've survived as a species. How have we managed to live as long as we have (granted, pretty short, grand scheme o' things) when we have these periodic bouts of super-crazy where significant portions of populations follow sociopaths blindly down the path to oblviion, celebrating the whole way?

Do we just breed faster than we can crazy ourselves to death?

Rob
Desert Son | 09.29.06 - 11:45 am | #

Incidentally, "oblviion" should have been "oblivion."

Fingers. Key sequence. Two great tastes that go great together.

Need more coffee,

Rob
Desert Son | 09.29.06 - 11:46 am | #

Weren't there pieces in the Nazi press about how luxurious the conditions were for Jews in Theresienstadt?
lysias | 09.29.06 - 11:49 am | #

Why am I not surprised? Appalled maybe but not surprised.
ckelly | 09.29.06 - 11:52 am | #

Shit like this makes me feel like a chump. I don't even know how to fight this.

I sympathize. What really gives me a sinking feeling is realizing that in the end the only way to fight that sort of people is to kill them.

This country can't endure being half-enlightened and half-barbaric any more than it could endure being half-free and half-slave.
Hedley Lamar | 09.29.06 - 11:53 am | #

On the day our country legalized tortured techniques and vested the definitively un-American power of indefinite detention in the President...

I think it is worth making the distinction that the congress did not vest these powers in the president. The president had already siezed them and was exercising them. The only choice the Republican congress had was to legitimize what the president was already doing or begin the unravelling that would destroy their party and bring down their government. Now that this has been added to their list of crimes the next step they will be obliged to ratify will be even bigger.
Dread Scot | 09.29.06 - 11:59 am | #

Weren't there pieces in the Nazi press about how luxurious the conditions were for Jews in Theresienstadt?

There certainly were.
prunes | 09.29.06 - 12:03 pm | #

Glenn Greenwald is a master at slicing away layer upon layer of bullshit and removing the heart of any matter.

Brilliant as always.
TheBlaz | 09.29.06 - 12:10 pm | #

These two coddled authoritarian cultists are giggling about people who have been put into cages for the last five years on an island, away from their lives and their families...

If any of these "people" had an opportunity to get a hold of Greenwald or any of his homosexual friends, the real meaning of torture (at least to them) would soon be abundantly clear. Greenwald would quickly learn the difference between harsh interrogation techniques and torture. Perhaps some of those reading this blog understand that our adversaries practice the most extreme forms of physical mutilation (including genital amputation), gang-rape, getting blinded with a hot poker, etc., and are particularly keen on carrying out their activities on homosexuals. Yet, Greenwald caterwauls incessantly about our anti-terror policies. He is the very embodiment of the useful idiot.

We are fighting against fanatics who love death. They despise our weaknesses, and fully expect limp-wrested leftists like Greenwald to carry their water within our political system. We are fortunate that our Greenwalds failed to stop the detainee bill, and we are also fortunate they will fail to stop the NSA warrantless wiretap program.
anonymous | 09.29.06 - 12:15 pm | #

Glenn says:
The whole thing is worth reading just to really savor what so many Bush followers really are.

Wouldn't that mean you'd link here to the actual whole thing rather than the edited whole thing you've linked to?

On the day our country legalized tortured techniques and vested the definitively un-American power of indefinite detention in the President, Hugh Hewitt and Mark Steyn take off their masks and reveal the hideous and frivolous face of the Bush follower.

C'mon Glenn, this is unhinged BDS verbiage. I know you are smarter than this. Military tribunals are on the way, torture there is not allowed, the inmates are indeed fat and treated to the fair solicitations of good looking ladies, and their day is spent in prayer and shaping weapons from everyday objects to kill their captors.

Would Americans be treated as well? Of course not. You should be happy, you're getting exactly what you want with the exception of letting these people go to shoot at us some more. If you can't be happy with this kind of victory, you will never be happy.
shooter242 | 09.29.06 - 12:19 pm | #

anonymous at 12:15 wrote: "We are fighting against fanatics who love death."

We certainly are. They're called monarchists.

And anyway, why are you here? You won, or didn't you get the news? You're allowed to torture people and detain them without trial forever if you like, and all the other stuff you've been wanting to do.

You're free! Your work is done! Time to kick back. It's Miller time! Grab a beer, enjoy a smoke, take a load off!

Please remember to enjoy your relaxation in a facility approved by the king.

Rob
Desert Son | 09.29.06 - 12:21 pm | #

Lie upon lie, shooter. Are you just fundamentally mendacious?
prunes | 09.29.06 - 12:22 pm | #

If any of these "people" had an opportunity to get a hold of Greenwald or any of his homosexual friends, the real meaning of torture (at least to them) would soon be abundantly clear.

Who are you talking about, the Afghan dirt farmers or the Razis?
prunes | 09.29.06 - 12:23 pm | #

shooter242,

Same question: why are you still here? You got what you wanted! Torture and indefinite detention, baby! Time to pop a bottle of champagne, break out the little noise-maker things! You guys did it! New and unfettered power!

Take a rest, man, you've been fighting for your side for a long time. Time to celebrate, no?

Just think! You don't have to suffer us fools anymore, right? It's in the bag, in the bank.

Hit the beach, or the casinos, take a cruise, get some R & R. Good work, soldier. This Bud's for you (assuming Bud has been approved by the king for consumption. Please check with your local commisar for a list of approved beverages for celebrating, and zones where approved celebrating is allowed).

Rob
Desert Son | 09.29.06 - 12:25 pm | #

Someone better buy anonymous some new comic books. I think he's getting bored with his current collection.
Paul Dirks | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 12:25 pm | #

My wife & I began our morning torture session watching Imus interview Monica Crowley, who was one of the 'journalists' who spent a lovely day in sunny Guantanamo. The talking points, after reading your quotes here, are now pretty obvious. She mentioned how much weight they've gained, how they have 24/7 medical care (including colonoscopies for all !!! - isn't that proof of torture right there???), they eat a lot, play a lot, have pretty much wonderful interrogation sessions... I ended up wishing I was there.
garyb | 09.29.06 - 12:29 pm | #

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Concentration_camp_Theresienstadt
The hoax against the Red Cross was so successful for the Nazis that they went on to make a propaganda film ... After the shooting most of the cast, and even the filmmaker himself, were deported to Auschwitz.
sysprog | 09.29.06 - 12:33 pm | #

I ended up wishing I was there.
garyb

Me, not so much. But I think that Steyn and Crowley might benefit from some time in the tiger cages.

BTW, fatness is not an indicator of good treatment. Yes, they are probably getting an adequate input of calories, but that does not mean they are being treated humanely.
Mark B. | 09.29.06 - 12:33 pm | #

Talk about the blind leading the blind: We're ruled by delusional ideologues, and their followers are even worse. If you're that far out of touch with reality, you need extraordinary powers just to keep one step ahead of the law. Their congressional enablers -- a Roll Call Hall of Shame -- were quick to oblige.

Still, Woodward's book may mark a turning point. You know things are bad when the court stenographer starts to bite the hand that has been feeding him.
Madison Guy | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 12:37 pm | #

Anonymous 9:24:06:

When you say "any of these 'people'" you mean any person selected from amongst the detainees, right?

So, you're including the ones who eventually get released because they didn't do anything, right?

Including the American citizens who were held uncharged before being released?

In other words, buried in your post is your unambiguous embrace of a system that locks people up without bothering to distinguish between those charged with crimes (and therefore entitled to a legal defense) and everyone else, including anyone who simply appears "suspicious"?

You do understand, don't you, that the concept of "presumption of innocence" has been changed so that it only applies selectively to American citizens, at the President's discretion, with no oversight by anyone?

What you must understand about leftists is that we're as patriotic as you are, but, unlike the right, we actually believe in the "freedoms" that our enemies supposedly "hate" enough to attack us.

If President Bush puts "our freedoms" on a pedestal like that, don't you think you should at least act like those freedoms (for ALL Americans) actually mean something to you?

Or is it all just a pantomime, wherein we merely pretend to obey the principles of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution?

What's your answer? I'm genuinely curious.
Jordan Orlando | 09.29.06 - 12:38 pm | #

"Weren't there pieces in the Nazi press about how luxurious the conditions were for Jews in Theresienstadt?"

Of course. Exactly. That's what struck me this morning when i read this.

8 years ago i couldn't have imagined American politicians would be "debating" and then approving the right for a president to lock people up, sans trial, and... ah why bother.

"But that was before 9/11!!!!" the idiots will scream.

No point in debating this, anyone who supports it is lost. Hand them an arm band and be done with it.
hankest | 09.29.06 - 12:38 pm | #

Perhaps some of those reading this blog understand that our adversaries practice the most extreme forms of physical mutilation (including genital amputation), gang-rape, getting blinded with a hot poker...

anonymous

Basically nothing less than we did to the innocent Vietnamese and I don't mean My Lai. So please go drink a cup of lye. That would be Drano, in case you weren't sure.
Black September | 09.29.06 - 12:40 pm | #

From anonymous at 12:15pm:

We are fighting against fanatics who love death. They despise our weaknesses, and fully expect limp-wrested leftists like Greenwald to carry their water within our political system.

There you go. Yet another demonstration of the souless sociopaths who run the country.

We are fortunate that our Greenwalds failed to stop the detainee bill, and we are also fortunate they will fail to stop the NSA warrantless wiretap program.

How much are they paying you to write this tripe? I mean, no thinking person actually believes this stuff.
yankeependragon | 09.29.06 - 12:40 pm | #

oops.. my bad, Mark B.

No more sarcasm for me in the morning.
garyb | 09.29.06 - 12:40 pm | #

"Nazi propaganda, which presented camps and ghettos as "spa towns", an International Red Cross delegation was invited to Terezin in August 1944, in February 1945 a deceitful propaganda film was made in Terezin... article from a Swiss newspaper revealing Nazi propaganda, coloured postcards and stamps from ghettos, instructions for prisoners for propaganda films in August 1944...
Black September | 09.29.06 - 12:45 pm | #

anonymous: If any of these "people" had an opportunity to get a hold of Greenwald or any of his homosexual friends, the real meaning of torture (at least to them) would soon be abundantly clear.

Can we start with you? Just for demonstration purposes, of course....
dopeyo | 09.29.06 - 12:45 pm | #

From shooter242 at 12:19pm:

You should be happy, you're getting exactly what you want with the exception of letting these people go to shoot at us some more.

In making this statement, I'm presuming you have absolute, verified, convincing proof of the guilt of every single detainee presently being held by the US across the globe? Or are you simply assuming automatic guilt here?

And why do I know I'm never going to get an answer to this?
yankeependragon | 09.29.06 - 12:45 pm | #

Terizien

http://www.araratcc.vic.edu.au/f.../ holocaust.html
Black September | 09.29.06 - 12:46 pm | #

All you have to remember is that these people approve of torture. That defines the smallness of their souls. I'm glad God will turn a deaf ear to them when they die.
NobodySpecial | 09.29.06 - 12:47 pm | #

THERESIENSTADT

On November 24, 1941, the Germans established a Jewish ghetto in the fortress town of Terezin, Czechoslovakia. Known by its German name, Theresienstadt, until its liberation on May 8, 1945, it functioned as a ghetto and transit camp on the route to Auschwitz. Most of those imprisoned in Theresienstadt were German, Czech, Dutch, and Danish Jews; elderly and prominent Jews and Jewish veterans of World War I were also sent there.

NAZI DECEPTION

Theresienstadt served an important propaganda function for the Germans. The publicly stated purpose for the deportation of the Jews from Germany was their "resettlement to the east," where they would be compelled to perform forced labor. Since it seemed implausible that elderly Jews could be used for forced labor, the Nazis used the Theresienstadt ghetto to hide the nature of the deportations. In Nazi propaganda, Theresienstadt was cynically described as a "spa town" where elderly German Jews could "retire" in safety. The deportations to Theresienstadt were, however, part of the Nazi strategy of deception. The ghetto was in reality a collection center for deportations to ghettos and extermination camps in Nazi-occupied eastern Europe.

Theresienstadt environs, 1944
See maps

Succumbing to pressure following the deportation of Danish Jews to Theresienstadt, the Germans permitted the International Red Cross to visit in June 1944. It was all an elaborate hoax. The Germans intensified deportations from the ghetto shortly before the visit, and the ghetto itself was "beautified." Gardens were planted, houses painted, and barracks renovated. The Nazis staged social and cultural events for the visiting dignitaries. Once the visit was over, the Germans resumed deportations from Theresienstadt, which did not end until October 1944.

DEPORTATIONS FROM THERESIENSTADT

Beginning in 1942, SS authorities deported Jews from Theresienstadt to other ghettos, concentration camps, and extermination camps in Nazi-occupied eastern Europe. German authorities either murdered the Jews upon their arrival in the ghettos of Riga, Warsaw, Lodz, Minsk, and Bialystok, or deported them further to extermination camps. Transports also left Theresienstadt directly for the extermination camps of Auschwitz, Majdanek, and Treblinka. In the ghetto itself, tens of thousands of people died, mostly from disease or starvation. In 1942, the death rate within the ghetto was so high that the Germans built--to the south of the ghetto--a crematorium capable of handling almost 200 bodies a day....

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/ article...duleId=10005424
Black September | 09.29.06 - 12:49 pm | #

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORL...nesty.pakistan/

Pakistan routinely abducts so-called "terror suspects" and transfers them to Guantanamo Bay, Bagram, north of Kabul, or secret U.S. detention centers elsewhere, said Claudio Cordone, senior director of research at Amnesty International.

The report also details how bounty hunters -- including police officers and local citizens -- have captured individuals of different nationalities, often apparently at random, and then sold them into U.S. custody.
Paul Dirks | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 12:49 pm | #

yankeependragon,

"How much are they paying you to write this"

That's an adjunct to what I've been wondering, as well.

Hey, Bart/bart/whomever-is-posting-as-bart-today, what's the pay rate for blog disruption? Pretty good? Do you get a scale based on success, seniority, number of blogs disrupted? Do you get a W2, or file separately with itemized receipts? Now that you've secured victory and have seen the Resident granted unprecedented power to detain people without trial and to torture detainees, does the pay fall off a bit, kinda like the IT industry glut in recent years, where there are a lot of professionals for fewer positions, resulting in reduced wages?

Thanks,

Rob
Desert Son | 09.29.06 - 12:50 pm | #

what's the pay rate for blog disruption?

You mean stirring up a giant, angry hornet's nest, like in Iraq, that is gonna come back and sting them to death?
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 12:56 pm | #

If they president locks them up they MUST be guilty.

Can't argue with any idiot who believes that. Why bother - he's lost.
hankest | 09.29.06 - 12:57 pm | #

Why do you think Bart isn't a real person?
http://citizen-pamphleteer.blogspot.com
sysprog | 09.29.06 - 1:00 pm | #

as many others have said, let those assholes Steyn and Hewitt fucking stay at Gitmo.

God I hate these fuckers. There won't be a wall long enough when the revolution comes.
r€nato | 09.29.06 - 1:01 pm | #

Does anyone know if Bush owns any horses, and if so, are they up for Senate seats?

Rob
Desert Son | 09.29.06 - 1:02 pm | #

sysprog,

The link you provide is compelling evidence that Bart/bart/whomever-is-posting-as-bart is, in fact, a legitimate poster.

I will have to re-examine my theory, and freely admit that I may be wrong (as I stated when I first posited, I can't prove it).

Although, I will say, just because Bart/bart/whomever is real, doesn't mean they aren't sent here to stir up trouble.

Regardless, I will stop with that theory for now until such time as I have better proof, or that I can see it is no longer valid, at which time I will abandon it.

Thanks for sending that information.

Rob
Desert Son | 09.29.06 - 1:06 pm | #

"MS: Well, I think unfortunately, America in particular, but also a lot of the rest of the world, has an incredibly legalized culture. "

Yes, the rule of law is so unfortunate. Wow. Just wow.
parrot | 09.29.06 - 1:12 pm | #

There is a relatively recent study of what happens to males when their side loses repeatedly in a sports competition. The main conclusion was that levels of testosterone decreased precipitously in the losers and increased in the winners. The Dems in Congress have been beaten down so many times that it is amazing they can even make testosterone anymore which sort of explains their lack of fight and, by the way, explains why the ladies in the senate seem to have more fight in them. I any case, if this whole mess is what they had prepared for us in September I wonder they are holding back for October - after all, Karl Rove did promise an October Surprise.

All kidding aside, I suspect the republicans leadership passed the Torture and Rape Act while completely ignoring their own side's misgivings. The right winger Andrew Sullivan was on MSNBC on 9/27 decrying this vile law so I suspect he is not the only one on his side of the aisle. It must feel like a deeply immoral and hollow victory to a good portion of the conservative movement. Senior Republican senators were ordered around like pupets to the detriment of their own long-term interests because this is a law that will be hung around their necks like a bag of feces for a long loooong time. Or the next election. How does it feel for a such a senior group to have spent the last five years taking orders from the other branch without being able to pass a single well designed statute. There is not a single product from congress that reflects traditional conservative values. I suspect that many of them secretly feel like utter failures, including McCain. They seem to have spine but it is an illusion created by inserting a broom handle up their rear ends so in a metaphorical sense the republican senators, and I include Joe Lieberman in this group, are the first victims of the Torture and Rape Act.

I am satisfied that the Dem senators and congressmen did the best they could. We have a terrible loss for the nation but only a tactical loss for the Dems. If we win in November it will be possible to revisit this issue but in any case we don't want to transform a tactical loss into a strategic one so I will vote Dem in November and will encourage everyone I know to do likewise regardless of what Rove has in store for October. To quote from a better man than I - " Damn the torpedos and full speed ahead".
solon | 09.29.06 - 1:13 pm | #

And why do I know I'm never going to get an answer to this?

Past experience, plus the fact that torture apologists are cowardly shits. This shows through in every way, their eagerness to be on the side of authority, their political views which are entirely based on fear of terrorists, and even down to the level of casual conversation, like here: they won't answer direct questions, they back off from every argument they know they will lose, and they deflect all criticism of their Lord and Master Bush.
prunes | 09.29.06 - 1:14 pm | #

The bit about the hottie and the La-Z-Boy just confirms that even the interrogators at Gitmo agree that torture is no way to interrogate a terrorist. It suggests that the real utility of torture lies in its propaganda value and its revenge value. Once we are allowed to torture, we can torture to death, and then dump the bodies. Then we can crow about it while the helots cower.
Baldie McEagle | 09.29.06 - 1:15 pm | #

We are fighting against fanatics who love death.

yes we are but I'm talking about fanatics like Steyn and Hewitt and Rumsfeld and Cheney and Bush. Who are you talking about?
r€nato | 09.29.06 - 1:20 pm | #

Saw that Crowley interview on Imus as well. What struck me was when she said she knew they were all blood-thirsty animals because "of the look in their eyes."

Reminds one of Kafka's "In the Penal Colony," as pointed out by TBogg:

"The matter stands like this. Here in the penal colony I have been appointed judge. In spite of my youth. For I stood at the side of our Old Commandant in all matters of punishment, and I also know the most about the apparatus. The basic principle I use for my decisions is this: Guilt is always beyond a doubt. Other courts could not follow this principle, for they are made up of many heads and, in addition, have even higher courts above them. But that is not the case here, or at least it was not that way with the previous Commandant. It’s true the New Commandant has already shown a desire to get mixed up in my court, but I’ve succeeded so far in fending him off. And I’ll continue to be successful. You want this case explained. It’s simple—just like all of them. This morning a captain laid a charge that this man, who is assigned to him as a servant and who sleeps before his door, had been sleeping on duty. For his task is to stand up every time the clock strikes the hour and salute in front of the captain’s door. That’s certainly not a difficult duty—and it’s necessary, since he is supposed to remain fresh both for guarding and for service. Yesterday night the captain wanted to check whether his servant was fulfilling his duty. He opened the door on the stroke of two and found him curled up asleep. He got his horsewhip and hit him across the face. Now, instead of standing up and begging for forgiveness, the man grabbed his master by the legs, shook him, and cried out, ‘Throw away that whip or I’ll eat you up.’ Those are the facts. The captain came to me an hour ago. I wrote up his statement and right after that the sentence."
In Vino Veritas | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 1:20 pm | #

"To sit around chortling about how great these detainees have it and how grateful they should be requires a sociopathic derangement that is nothing short of grotesque"

"Many of these people were for worse off or less fortune before, so this is going quite well for them." - Barbara Bush (Astrodome-Site for Katrina refugees).

These are the same type of people.

I suppose not many people understand how truly significantly, historically-globally-socially, progressive the US criminal justice and penal system truly WAS.

The history of the world showed that loss of liberty was never considered a punishment or anything of concern in and of it self. Punishment was torture. There was amputation, burning, hanging from chains or placed in stocks, flogging, branding, and other forms of more equisite torture.

The Founders were all to aware of this system and the abuses of the British rule. That is why we have the 8TH Amendment (no cruel and unusual punishment). America is hte first time in the history of the world that loss of liberty was considered a punishment itself. the US started using terms of incarceration to punish people.

Five years from ones life is a great cost. How many would wish to have five more years back or five more years at the end, or five more years to get something right.

For these imbeciles to discount loss of liberty signifies that have never suffered the loss of anything so valuable to one's self as their freedom. (especially without even the expectation of eventual release)

Think of those death row inmates who suffer because their deat date has not been signed yet. They try to die naturally to deny the State. They wil take up smoking as much as possible to ge cancer or other unhealthy habits such as no bathing or eating feces in the hopes of contracting a disease or fatal illness. That is torture that is cruel that is not what this Country is about.
txexspeedy | 09.29.06 - 1:33 pm | #

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It's All So Surreal | 09.29.06 - 1:33 pm | #

So we know at least two people who think that freedom is so valueless that it doesn't matter when it's stolen from the innocent, as long as there is plenty of food. Oh, yes, and if there are recliners used when a reporter is nearby to make the experience seem surreal.

Any other Bush supporters want to come out and make the same claim?
John Palmer | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 1:33 pm | #

REP. McKINNEY INTRODUCES LEGISLATION TO RE-OPEN CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGS INTO COINTELPRO PAST AND PRESENT

(Washington, DC) Rep. Cynthia McKinney (D-GA 4^th ) has introduced legislation calling for a re-opening of the investigations of the 1970’s by the United States Select Committee to Study Government Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities chaired by Senator Frank Church which led to startling revelations concerning federal, state and local intelligence and law enforcement agency violations of Constitutional rights of privacy, limits on search and seizure, surveillance, wiretapping and disruption of dissent and protected activities, and massive collection of dossiers by FBI, CIA, NSA, Pentagon, Defense Intelligence Agencies and other local agencies, targeting the civil rights, Native American and anti-war movements of the period and “neutralizing” their leadership and discrediting the efforts for social change over decades.

The most infamous of these abuses was the FBI’s COINTELPRO operations, or counter intelligence program, and victims of those attacks remain wrongfully imprisoned to this day...
Plan A | 09.29.06 - 1:36 pm | #

Wait a second. This Steyn fellow publishes with a number of "reputable" journals. He has sponsors, people who support him.

http://www.steynonline.com/index....cfm? edit_id=34

To contact the coward directly, write:

mark@steynonline.com
It's All So Surreal | 09.29.06 - 1:36 pm | #

From Desert Son at 1:02pm:

Does anyone know if Bush owns any horses, and if so, are they up for Senate seats?

One of the fortunate aspects of our government is that the President cannot simply appoint Senators unless one dies in office. I certainly wouldn't put it past W to do something as ridiculous as you're suggesting here; guess we'll have to watch for any troublesome Senators meeting with "accidents".

As for the rest of your historical analogy, I doubt he'll ever reach the levels set by Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus. For one thing I don't believe he has any younger sisters to bed then butcher, and secondly his supporters are too prudish to turn the White House into an atual brothel, and finally there's a limit to what the US populace are prepared to tolerate from even an amiable simpleton like Bush.

But then one does wonder what goes on with the Bush family these days.
yankeependragon | 09.29.06 - 1:37 pm | #

I'm just sure, too, that the interrogation techniques shown to prominent visitors are the ONLY ones at Guantanamo.

"they were in comfy chairs, I wish I had it so bad a hyuk hyuk." The imbiciles.
prunes | 09.29.06 - 1:37 pm | #

Yes, "the true depravity of Bush followers" is horrific (and, I think, criminal, but then my expertise is in civil law). But what of the Democrats who permitted the bill to pass by not having the courage to filibuster against it (in the case of more than 25% of them -- 12 out of 44 -- not having the courage even to vote against it) and whose leaders now, according to the NYT, regard the vote as evidence that Bush's "power to wield national security as a political issue is diminished"? That, in my mind, is as depraved, if not more so, than anything exhibited by the Republicans. The Democrats' concern -- with some noble exceptions -- certainly seems to be with how their position will affect their own re-election, not how it will affect the country, the consitution, or what we do to ourselves and the world.
Pericles | 09.29.06 - 1:37 pm | #

If any of these "people" had an opportunity to get a hold of Greenwald or any of his homosexual friends, the real meaning of torture (at least to them) would soon be abundantly clear. Greenwald would quickly learn the difference between harsh interrogation techniques and torture. Perhaps some of those reading this blog understand that our adversaries practice the most extreme forms of physical mutilation (including genital amputation), gang-rape, getting blinded with a hot poker, etc., and are particularly keen on carrying out their activities on homosexuals. Yet, Greenwald caterwauls incessantly about our anti-terror policies. He is the very embodiment of the useful idiot.

We are fighting against fanatics who love death. They despise our weaknesses, and fully expect limp-wrested leftists like Greenwald to carry their water within our political system. We are fortunate that our Greenwalds failed to stop the detainee bill, and we are also fortunate they will fail to stop the NSA warrantless wiretap program.
anonymous

I agree! I think that the next logical step is for Congress to give the President full discretionary powers regarding the use of nuclear weapons. i believe the AUMF probably covers that, but just to be clear, Congress should spell out that Bush does not need to consult with them before launching the missiles, no matter where the target is.

Let's face it, we are up against an enemy who would use nukes against us if they had them. We should not hesitate to use our nukes on them. We are in a new phase of history now, in which genocide is the only effective form of war.
Baldie McEagle | 09.29.06 - 1:42 pm | #

C'mon Glenn, this is unhinged BDS verbiage. I know you are smarter than this. Military tribunals are on the way, torture there is not allowed, the inmates are indeed fat and treated to the fair solicitations of good looking ladies, and their day is spent in prayer and shaping weapons from everyday objects to kill their captors.

Would Americans be treated as well? Of course not. You should be happy, you're getting exactly what you want with the exception of letting these people go to shoot at us some more. If you can't be happy with this kind of victory, you will never be happy.
shooter24

Shithead does an excellent parody of himself.
Baldie McEagle | 09.29.06 - 1:44 pm | #

We must not allow a mineshaft gap.
prunes | 09.29.06 - 1:44 pm | #

What you must understand about leftists is that we're as patriotic as you are, but, unlike the right, we actually believe in the "freedoms" that our enemies supposedly "hate" enough to attack us.

If President Bush puts "our freedoms" on a pedestal like that, don't you think you should at least act like those freedoms (for ALL Americans) actually mean something to you?

Or is it all just a pantomime, wherein we merely pretend to obey the principles of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution?

What's your answer? I'm genuinely curious.
Jordan Orlando

They won't "understand" until their faces are ground into the asphalt.
Baldie McEagle | 09.29.06 - 1:46 pm | #

Someone (Feingold?) should have gotten up there and refused to stop talking, ala Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, until they came and took him away in chains.

Only then would I have been hopeful should the Dems retain power in November. Now, I have serious doubts about whether they could or would accomplish anything at all in the way of justice, even if they took the House and Senate overwhelmingly.
sunny | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 1:49 pm | #

Of interest.......

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/arch...ives/ 001637.php

Sen. Arlen Specter (R-PA), who voted for the bill even after his amendment to preserve certain rights for detainees was defeated, called the proposal "patently unconstitutional on its face," The Washington Post reported.
Paul Dirks | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 1:53 pm | #

Monica Crowley was involved in the swift-boating of Dean and his wife to try and blame the bugging of the Dem offices at the Watergate on him, instead of Nixon, claiming that Mo Dean was a high priced call girl. If we bring back dunking or witch burning, and it looks like we are headed that way, I want to be there for Crowley's.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 1:55 pm | #

http://alternet.org/story/39275/...39275/? comments
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 1:57 pm | #

Does anyone know if Bush owns any horses, and if so, are they up for Senate seats?

Rob
Desert Son

Nice one, Rob.
Baldie McEagle | 09.29.06 - 1:59 pm | #

What has America bred in the hearts and minds of so many of her children? What has crazed their senses and destroyed their hearts? Why must they, time and time again, wheel out the racks, the whips, the thumbscrews? Why must the European find the native over and over again? What is America's grand design in spawning such monsters? And what do we the rest of us do to protect ourselves from them and their fast-growing power and hungers?
Nezua Limón Xolagrafik-Jonez | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 2:00 pm | #

There's a simple question I've never seen answered by anyone of the leaders or pundits who advocated this bill.

IF, just on the off chance, somebody innocent is arrested and imprisoned in this way, what should they do?

If they're really NOT a terrorist and they get locked up and tortured... what should they do?

Just chuckle and say "accidents happen" and be glad that the world is safer from terrorists (even though they might not ever be released to experience it)?

It seems like a reasonable question to me, I wish someone would answer it.

Jeff
Jeff Coleman | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 2:02 pm | #

They let Mark Steyn "eavesdrop" on an interrogation?

Aren't they supposed to be extracting highly classified information with these "alternative procedures?"
Kagro X | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 2:02 pm | #

Of course it wasn't a real interrogation. Do you think they are going to risk any further bad PR from that place?
prunes | 09.29.06 - 2:04 pm | #

Those cute widdow tewwowists over there, I feew so sowwy for them.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 2:05 pm | #

Oh, one more thing, if i hear one more person say the US shouldn't torture because it doesn't work, i will puke - violently.

I don't give a freakin' crap if it works. It's wrong.

I can't believe this is even being debated. Next, "hey, let's just toss muslims in ovens. It works!"
hankest | 09.29.06 - 2:08 pm | #

Monica Crowley

Silent Coup (bullshit)

http://www.buzzflash.com/article...ontributors/ 315
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 2:09 pm | #

"On the day our country legalized tortured techniques and vested the definitively un-American power of indefinite detention in the President, Hugh Hewitt and Mark Steyn take off their masks and reveal the hideous and frivolous face of the Bush follower."

Glenn you are truly an idiot, this is complete crap. What a tool.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 2:10 pm | #

It must feel like a deeply immoral and hollow victory to a good portion of the conservative movement. Senior Republican senators were ordered around like pupets to the detriment of their own long-term interests because this is a law that will be hung around their necks like a bag of feces for a long loooong time. Or the next election. How does it feel for a such a senior group to have spent the last five years taking orders from the other branch without being able to pass a single well designed statute.

For some of the younger blood who come from the religious extremist or other hate groups, it was probably so pleasurable they needed to change their shorts afterwards. For the older guard there is probably a sense that things have got out of control, but they are in too deep now and if Bush goes down he will take everyone with him.

In 2000, when Bush staged his first coup, the supreme court was given the choice of legitimizing it or proceeding to a full scale constitutional crisis with rioting and the whole works. They chose what they thought to be the lesser of evils. After all, he is a good Christian conservative Republican, what harm could come of it? Congress has done the same, repeatedly. Bush has been holding the nation, the constitution and the Republican party hostage for 6 years with the aid of the fanatics and the rest have been conceding to his demands, always thinking the alternative was worse.

They are all accomplices to too many crimes now and there is no turning back. All they can do is hope to get through the next 2 years until McCain takes over and sets things right, so they can forget this happened. That's wishful thinking, at best.
Dread Scot | 09.29.06 - 2:11 pm | #

Those cute widdow tewwowists over there, I feew so sowwy for them.
Anonymous

Not as sorry as we feel for you, or you feel for yourself, for that matter. Come to think of it, I don't pity you at all. I have nothing but contempt for you. I have more respect for the Jihadis. They, at least, are willing to die for their beliefs. I don't see that level of commitment in you or any of the neocons.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 2:12 pm | #

Those cute widdow tewwowists over there, I feew so sowwy for them.

I guess you're a pretty big man, being able to laugh at a guy chained up and being bit in the crotch by dogs, or a guy drowned half to death, or electrocuted.

Or how about those that hung themselves to escape the treatment?

Yeah, you're a big fucking man.
prunes | 09.29.06 - 2:13 pm | #

Glenn you are truly an idiot, this is complete crap. What a tool.
Anonymous

Be careful. If it gets out that he is an idiot, he might become President. It won't be the first time.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 2:14 pm | #

That's why you're so sick, Anonymous 2:12. You favor the terrorists over your own citizens.

See you in hell.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 2:14 pm | #

That's why you're so sick, Anonymous 2:12. You favor the terrorists over your own citizens.

People who love their countrymen don't laugh and appluad when their rights are taken away.

You don't love your country.

You just love your party. Fascist.
prunes | 09.29.06 - 2:16 pm | #

Good job, Anonymous Republican Commenter. I intend to show your comments to various fence-sitting and God-fearing rellies of mine. They ought to make them realize that your GOP is not the Morality Party after all.
Phoenix Woman | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 2:17 pm | #

if you're used to this sort of anti-American propaganda, where the guys are in dungeons and chains, chained to these little, wooden chairs under the bare light bulb, or some guys beating the information out of them.

Hughey will surely receive a Pulitzer for breaking the story that all those photos of prisoners treated in exactly this fashion by US torturers were, in fact, merely forgeries by anti-American propagandists.
username | 09.29.06 - 2:18 pm | #

Anonymous @ 2:14, who would Jesus torture?

You are right, you are going to Hell. Along with Bush, Cheney, the terrorists and the rest of you subhuman assholes who get a kick out of human suffering.

You're all animals anyway, so let you lose your souls.
Ras_Nesta | 09.29.06 - 2:18 pm | #

Dear anonymous yellowbellied pusillanimous pissant:
If any of these "people" had an opportunity to get a hold of Greenwald or any of his homosexual friends, the real meaning of torture (at least to them) would soon be abundantly clear. Greenwald would quickly learn the difference between harsh interrogation techniques and torture. Perhaps some of those reading this blog understand that our adversaries practice the most extreme forms of physical mutilation (including genital amputation), gang-rape, getting blinded with a hot poker, etc., and are particularly keen on carrying out their activities on homosexuals. Yet, Greenwald caterwauls incessantly about our anti-terror policies. He is the very embodiment of the useful idiot.

We are fighting against fanatics who love death. They despise our weaknesses, and fully expect limp-wrested leftists like Greenwald to carry their water within our political system. We are fortunate that our Greenwalds failed to stop the detainee bill, and we are also fortunate they will fail to stop the NSA warrantless wiretap program.

Yeah, we're fighting fanatics who love death... less than one tenth of one percent of the people in the middle east. Less than *one in a thousand*.

And we're stronger than they are, and smarter than they are, and we can kick their ass past their shoulderblades so far that it loops back around their body.

And we don't need torture to do it.

I don't care if you want to give up your morality, and say "as long as we're better than *they* are, we're the good guys", because that's bullshit. As long as we act on the side of justice - and that means fair treatment for all - we're the good guys, and justice is not served by torture, not even "torture not as bad as the terrorists use".

God damn, you cowards make me sick. The bad guy goes "boo", and you are ready to give up human decency, and ignore what happens to the innocent, because you're oh-so-frickin'-scared that the big, bad terrorists might hurt you.

Well, America is not a nation of cowards, even if it is being led by one.

America is strong enough to hold to her values, and still capture or kill a bunch of terrorist punks. I'm sorry if you don't think so, but you'll have to learn to live with it, because you cowardly, unthinking, lying, unamerican assholes are going to go down.

Go ahead; stand up on the side of torture ("but not as bad as the terrorists!") and injustice. And look around and see who you're standing on the side of, and pretend that you're the good guys.

Then look on the other side, and see that you're facing people who demand freedom, justice, and the rule of just laws.

And ask yourself if you're right, how come all the good guys are on the other side?
John Palmer | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 2:18 pm | #

We are fortunate that our Greenwalds failed to stop the detainee bill, and we are also fortunate they will fail to stop the NSA warrantless wiretap program.

You're forgetting your preferred Orwellian newspeak that the RNC has come up with, "terrorist surveillance program". Please, keep your Maoist propaganda straight.
Ted | 09.29.06 - 2:18 pm | #

"So this is how democracy dies -- to thunderous applause."
Phoenix Woman | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 2:18 pm | #

Crazy Earl from Full Metal Jacket (based on a real marine): These are great days we're living, bros. We are jolly green giants, walking the Earth with guns. These people we wasted here today are the finest human beings we will ever know. After we rotate back to the world, we're gonna miss not having anyone around that's worth shooting.

This is what the troops will be thinking when they rotate back and find the guy who said this:

Those cute widdow tewwowists over there, I feew so sowwy for them.

Maybe they will reconsider. I know I would.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 2:18 pm | #

If they president locks them up they MUST be guilty.

Der Führer hat immer Recht.

Il Duce ha sempre ragione.
lysias | 09.29.06 - 2:18 pm | #

You won't see him. Torture enthusiasts get a lower level than garden variety folks.
NobodySpecial | 09.29.06 - 2:19 pm | #

It's simply a foreign concept to these Bush cheerleaders that anyone innocent could ever be imprisoned - despite numberous real-life examples, with Arar, rendered to Syria and tortured there, being one of the most horrendous cases.

To Hewitt and Steyn, being imprisoned indefinitely is just peachy keen if you've got a La-Z-Boy to sit in. Why would anyone possibly complain? Hmmm - because they're innocent?

These guys just do not get it. Yes, they're liars who employ disingenuous arguments all the time, and they lack all compassion, but I believe there's both a moral and intellectual component just missing there.
Batocchio | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 2:20 pm | #

"Good job, Anonymous Republican Commenter. I intend to show your comments to various fence-sitting and God-fearing rellies of mine. They ought to make them realize that your GOP is not the Morality Party after all.
Phoenix Woman"

Ok Phoenix Woman, and I'll show my acquaintances the responses I get on this site. That'll be a hoot.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 2:21 pm | #

Since Anonymous Republican loves authoritarianism and disdains basic human rights, like that of privacy, I'm sure he won't mind if Glenn posts his IP address here, eh? Just in case Anonymous Republican is a terrorist, y'know.
Phoenix Woman | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 2:21 pm | #

batocchio, they just think it will never happen to them because they are wealthy, white Republicans. So fuck everyone else, it's not their problem.

Bush-supporter == sociopath
r€nato | 09.29.06 - 2:21 pm | #

That's why you're so sick, Anonymous 2:12. You favor the terrorists over your own citizens.

See you in hell.
Anonymous

Some of them, you bet. About 26%.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 2:22 pm | #

88 comments already?

Still, "I had the opportunity to kind of eavesdrop " makes me sick.

What the fuck is he doing there again?
Darryl Pearce | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 2:22 pm | #

Hey, Bart/bart/whomever-is-posting-as-bart-today, what's the pay rate for blog disruption? Pretty good? Do you get a scale based on success, seniority, number of blogs disrupted? Do you get a W2, or file separately with itemized receipts? Now that you've secured victory and have seen the Resident granted unprecedented power to detain people without trial and to torture detainees, does the pay fall off a bit, kinda like the IT industry glut in recent years, where there are a lot of professionals for fewer positions, resulting in reduced wages?

Maybe they'll outsource the job to Bangalore.
lysias | 09.29.06 - 2:22 pm | #

Ok Phoenix Woman, and I'll show my acquaintances the responses I get on this site. That'll be a hoot.

will you have to read the comments to them or will you have to draw them a picture with your crayons?
r€nato | 09.29.06 - 2:22 pm | #

"Since Anonymous Republican loves authoritarianism and disdains basic human rights, like that of privacy, I'm sure he won't mind if Glenn posts his IP address here, eh? Just in case Anonymous Republican is a terrorist, y'know.
Phoenix Woman"

Nice touch Phoenix Woman, inviting stalking and harassment.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 2:24 pm | #

Gotta love the La-Z-Boys!
Fidel Cigar | 09.29.06 - 2:24 pm | #

Did I see Anonymous calling Anonymous a terrorist-lover? Anonymous must be very confused.

Anonymous is also confusing his fear and hatred of Arabs/Muslims for fear and hatred of terrorists. He thinks he hates terrorists, but really, when you think about how few of them there are and how ineffective they have been for the last 5 if not 15 years, that doesn't make sense. Unless they killed someone Anonymous knows personally. Then it makes sense. But Anonymous can't conceive of anything better than an American. That is, even a bad American like Bush is better than a good Arab.

That's run-of-the-mill racism. Anonymous, go back to your Klan.
Baldie McEagle | 09.29.06 - 2:25 pm | #

Ok Phoenix Woman, and I'll show my acquaintances the responses I get on this site. That'll be a hoot.

Unlike you, I actually know people who serve or have served in the military.

They relied on the Geneva Conventions to protect them when they were captured during wartime.

Now that your president's repudiated the Geneva Conventions, they're not particularly happy with him.
Phoenix Woman | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 2:25 pm | #

someone was asking 'a good summary of who the Gitmo internees are and how they were rounded up'.

Amnesty International has something to say:

More than 85 percent of detainees unlawfully held at the US detention centre in Cuba were arrested by the Afghan Northern Alliance and in Pakistan at a time when rewards of up to US$5,000 were paid for every unidentified terror suspect handed over to the USA.

Bounty hunters – including police officers and local people – took advantage of this routine practice that facilitated illegal detention and enforced disappearance (...)

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/sto...29-features- eng
jifi | 09.29.06 - 2:25 pm | #

r€nato, he'll do like he usually does--dip his finger into his own shit to draw the pictures.

The usual M.O. of piss-scared, anti-american traitors.
Ras_Nesta | 09.29.06 - 2:26 pm | #

bush supporters are ACCOMPLICES TO WAR CRIMES.
type 4 | 09.29.06 - 2:26 pm | #

"Unlike you, I actually know people who serve or have served in the military."

Phoenix Woman you don't know anything about me. And now I know you are an idiot.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 2:27 pm | #

That's why you're so sick, Anonymous 2:12. You favor the terrorists over your own citizens.

See you in hell.
Anonymous

See me in hell? How? Do you plan on going for a visit or on a more permanent basis?

Would you like to see a picture of Crazy Earl? I told you he was real.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 2:27 pm | #

Poor Anonymous. He thinks he's safe from Bush because he's white.

But your privacy, and your right not to be summarily hauled off to jail, are just as much toast as those of the black families that caused you to run screaming in race-based terror to the suburbs, "Anonymous".
Phoenix Woman | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 2:28 pm | #

Unlike you, I actually know people who serve or have served in the military. But I haven't actually served myself. Pilonoidal cysts.

Like George Bush?
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 2:29 pm | #

Rush Limbaugh?
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 2:29 pm | #

We were once a nation that was able to defeat the greatest evil known to man four years after Pearl Harbor.

Because of cowards like Anonymous, we are having trouble, five years after 9/11, defeating a couple of barbarians in caves. They must be enjoying this, seeing our nation sever its founding principles one by one.

Thank you, conservative cowards, you have turned a once proud land into a nation of the pathetic frail.
In Vino Veritas | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 2:29 pm | #

Hughey will surely receive a Pulitzer for breaking the story that all those photos of prisoners treated in exactly this fashion by US torturers were, in fact, merely forgeries by anti-American propagandists.
username

What photos? What forgeries?
Baldie McEagle | 09.29.06 - 2:29 pm | #

If you knew anything, Anonymous, you'd know why Bush's destruction of the Geneva Conventions shows that he doesn't give a damn about our armed forces.

But you're just a half-bright little suburban chickenhawk who crosses to the other side of the street when anyone with skin darker than yours walks within fifty feet of you.
Phoenix Woman | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 2:31 pm | #

"Crazy Earl" is the one in the middle.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 2:31 pm | #

Phoenix Woman you don't know anything about me.

She (and we) know you support torture. What more do we need to know? What more did we really need to know about the likes of Idi Amin, or Papa Doc?
NobodySpecial | 09.29.06 - 2:31 pm | #

And I don't mean the finger, but that's in the middle too and it's just for you.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 2:32 pm | #

Rich Lowry was on the same trip, apparently.

At Gitmo, the detainees sit in plush La-Z Boy chairs when they are being interrogated and are offered drinks and the chance to see movies on DVD by their interrogators, who struggle to establish a rapport with them. Sometimes it works. We were told that about 15% of the detainees cooperate with the interrogations. Again, this isn't such a problem if you're not dealing with an urgent situation. But if you have a KSM who might have information about ongoing plots, you don't have years to sit around hoping he eventually decides to talk to you from a La-Z Boy chair
P O'Neill | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 2:32 pm | #

Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 2:10 pm |

No, sir. You are the tool. But I imagine you won't come to realise that until your family or friends begin to disappear, if you ever do.
Snowwy | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 2:33 pm | #

"Does anyone know if Bush owns any horses, and if so, are they up for Senate seats?"

Doubt it. You know what his neighbors say, "all hat and no cattle."
shep | 09.29.06 - 2:35 pm | #

Nice touch Phoenix Woman, inviting stalking and harassment.
Anonymous

Watch out! Women are scary!
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 2:36 pm | #

We aren't passing laws or "executive orders" on how to treat people we have in captivity, we are defining the treatmet of our own brave soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines if they are captured. By definition, they would be captured by our enemys. Our enemys no longer have to guess as to what is not a war crime. BTW, people were convicted of war crimes and violations of geneva for waterboarding after ww2.
Killer | 09.29.06 - 2:36 pm | #

I understand why a soldier or secret police would practice torture. Stressful situation, fear, anger, etc. I also understand why shooter or bart or any of the trolls around here whould support such activity - they're sociopaths and impotent with rage or love power or don't fear they could be tortured, etc.

Clearly Bush, Cheney, Frist are also without consciences - but they have power. None of the rage, impotence, fear aspects apply to them. What is the practical application of torture that makes them spend any time on this at all?

Maybe it's "a pathological need to break the law" as Glenn asserts, but it makes it scarier (for lack of a better term) to me that they seem to want to do this for no apparent reason other than their emotional fulfillment.

Can anyone offer an explain for this?
JS | 09.29.06 - 2:37 pm | #

Crazy Earl is gonna get you, anonymous whiner. Watch out!
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 2:37 pm | #

Any and all Americans abroad now and in the future will be rightly looked upon with suspicion and scorn wherever they go. Good luck to all those who are considering emigrating; it will be difficult to find a warm welcome, but take heart - even Nazis found safe havens abroad after the war ended.
Rufus | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 2:38 pm | #

Perhaps those afghans are so "chubby" because they have been FORCE-FED by the US down at Gitmo, eh Mark Steyn? Now, how does that happen exactly? Well, you can read how force-feeding actually occurs here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/2...serland& emc=rss
Tennessean | 09.29.06 - 2:40 pm | #

Pilonoidal cysts

This was Limbaugh's excuse for avoiding Viet Nam.
Mark B. | 09.29.06 - 2:42 pm | #

Can anyone offer an explain for this?

I fully believe that torture is desired for irrational and sadistic reasons, and only justified to ones' self after the decision to torture has been made.

The ridiculous arguments in favor of torture support the idea that the desire for torture is irrationally based.
prunes | 09.29.06 - 2:42 pm | #

Did I see Anonymous calling Anonymous a terrorist-lover? Anonymous must be very confused.

My bad. Haloscam keeps eating my name. Anybody who must fight a tough opponent, either develops a grudging respect for them or doesn't, at their own peril. You can be sure the IDF has a new found respect for Hezbollah. They aren't fools.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 2:45 pm | #

JS,

"Clearly Bush, Cheney, Frist are also without consciences - but they have power. None of the rage, impotence, fear aspects apply to them. What is the practical application of torture that makes them spend any time on this at all?"

First, why do you suspect that none of the rage, impotence, and fear aspects apply to them? Hitler had total power as leader of Nazi Germany, and seems to me the guy had a lot of rage, impotence, and fear issues (to put it mildly). Stalin. Amin. Duvalier. Hell, just about any king that's ever ascended any throne. Just because you're in power doesn't mean you're suddenly free of fear, rage, or impotence.

Second, once you have power, what's left to grab? More power, obviously, and since power is one of the more addicting things people get hung up on, why not keep going?

Rob
Desert Son | 09.29.06 - 2:46 pm | #

I think Crazy Earl scared the anonymous, repuklican chickenhawk away.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 2:47 pm | #

The other day on The Daily Show, in a bit detailing Clinton's interview by Chris Wallace of FOX News, John Stewart showed clips of several different MSM news broadcasters all echoing the "Clinton went crazy" bullshit meme.

The Stewart asked the news people, mockingly, "Who the fuck are you?"

Hugh Hewitt and Mark Steyn...who the fuck are they, and why should we care? They're both wingnut hand puppets who preach to the already converted.

We KNOW they're cowardly anti-democratic, neo-fascist windbags with repugnant political views--and probably insane to boot.

All their tough talk is just knee-jerk poppycock. Neither of these two effete boobs would ever have the guts to act out their right-wing fantasies. Like all closet fascists, they let others do their dirty work while they sit on their flabby asses waxing philosophical about ideals for which they've never in their miserable, cowardly lives ever backed with their own asses on the line.

What a generation of swine, these right-wing boobs like Hewitt, Steyn, Limbaugh, Jonah "Doughy Pantload" Goldberg, Michelle Malkin, and all the other hyperventliating right-wing pundits who are all talk and no action.

In their sick minds they really think they're tough and possess endless reserves of resolve. All this from the warm, dark comfort of Mom's basement.

So I ask them: Who the fuck are you?

The answer is simple.

No one.
mat | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 2:49 pm | #

This reminds me of the descriptions of Vietnam POWs who were cleaned up, trotted out, and fed cookies so that Jane Fonda could coo about how wonderful the Viet Cong were. Normally, though, they ate shit-infested food, slept in shit-infested cells, and drank shit-clouded water.

At the time, it drove the POW's mad with rage to hear American media portray their conditions as "humane" and nice and whatnot.
Bribes

So you are saying that her visit was a good thing?

If I was there, I'd be glad for the bath and good food. There is lots of crap and BS floating around about that incident and if you are careful, you can find the truth. In point of fact, treatment was pretty bad for our guys at first but got better towards the end of the war. It wasn't pretty on either side, OK?
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 2:52 pm | #

Clearly Bush, Cheney, Frist are also without consciences - but they have power

We're reading way too much into this. Bush/Cheney got caught by surprise on 9-11 and simply didn't want to have it happen again. Once someone assured them that waterboarding would be helpful they simply went for it without batting an eye. Their total lack of empathy for anyone assures them of restful sleep at all times.

Only when someone suggested that all this might be against that "constitution" they were supposed to be defending did it become an issue at all.
Paul Dirks | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 2:52 pm | #

All your courageous Senate Democrats just voted approval of the Defense Appropriations. Vote: 100-0.

Dear NutRoots: Can't Reid, Boxer and Co. hear you?
Fidel Cigar | 09.29.06 - 2:54 pm | #

As Coleen Rowley says, torture got us the great intel the nutjobs used to get us into Iraq. This should be the headline today, and be on every Dems lips.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ co...ar_b_30479.html
Millvan | 09.29.06 - 2:57 pm | #

Seymour Skinner: "I spent the next 3 years in a POW camp, forced to subsist on a thin stew made of fish, vegetables, prawns, coconut milk and four kinds of rice. I came close to madness trying to find it here in the States, but they just can't get the spices right."
e_five | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 3:01 pm | #

All your courageous Senate Democrats just voted approval of the Defense Appropriations. Vote: 100-0.

Dear NutRoots: Can't Reid, Boxer and Co. hear you?
Fidel Cigar

The best Defense is a good Offense!
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 3:01 pm | #

And you are pretty offensive, like most wingnuts. At least Fidel was a real war El Presidente.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 3:02 pm | #

Sherrod Brown:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15049251

"I supported a compromise because I think John McCain, a former prisoner of war, understands what we need to do to ensure our soldiers are safe." -- Sherrod Brown

It wasn't only Sherrod Brown. As MSNBC reports: All but one of the House Democrats whom the Cook Political Report rates as being in close races (the “Lean Democrat” category) voted for the bill. The only Democrat in that category who voted ‘no’ was Rep. Allan Mollohan of West Virginia.
sysprog | 09.29.06 - 3:05 pm | #

Fidel with Batista's sidearm.

Bush had somebody with real balls get Saddam's for him.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 3:08 pm | #

From Phoenix Woman at 2:18pm:

"So this is how democracy dies -- to thunderous applause."

Single best line Natile Portman ever spoke.
yankeependragon | 09.29.06 - 3:09 pm | #

So now, as I understand it, the only thing standing between the Bush administration building concentration camps for the political opposition is an appropriations bill.

Am I right?
e_five | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 3:12 pm | #

Was there some kind of silent PR campaign to send conservatives to Gitmo? I caught a story from the NY Post quoting a lot of the same talking points.

http://wetorture.com/?p=14
the NY post story was taken down. Here is an alternative link.
http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-b...i? ArtNum=158927

Other than Richard Miniter and Mark Steyn, did you hear of anyone else sent to report on Gitmo?
enozinho | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 3:13 pm | #

1985. I was sitting with friends in a Vietnamese restaurant in San Jose, waiting for our order. A huge blonde man in his 40s -- think Jesse Ventura -- came in, carrying a gym bag over his shoulder. He flirted with the waitress in fluent Vietnamese, then ordered and ate a huge bowl of pho with all the fixings.

He obviously didn't consider nuoc mam to be rancid fish oil.

When his counterparts come back from Iraq, do you think GWB will be able to take any comfort from them?
William Timberman | 09.29.06 - 3:19 pm | #

Glenn says:
UPDATE: In Comments, Kagro X asks a very good question.

They let Mark Steyn "eavesdrop" on an interrogation?
Aren't they supposed to be extracting highly classified information with these "alternative procedures?"
Kagro X | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 2:02 pm

LOL. Given your eagerness to have the NY TImes publish whatever classified material thay can get their hands on, what do you care?
shooter242 | 09.29.06 - 3:19 pm | #

I gotta git me some Gitmo™!
Pollen Boy | 09.29.06 - 3:21 pm | #

Wow, maybe they're terrorists, maybe they're innocent... I just don't know how I feel about them being tortured unless I know. We should get some sort of impartial third party to examine the evidence and figure out which they are.
Murderball

We tried judges in this country. It wasn't working out. They kept siding with the terrists. Apparently we have all these laws.
Baldie McEagle | 09.29.06 - 3:22 pm | #

Reposting:

shooter242,

Same question: why are you still here? You got what you wanted! Torture and indefinite detention, baby! Time to pop a bottle of champagne, break out the little noise-maker things! You guys did it! New and unfettered power!

Take a rest, man, you've been fighting for your side for a long time. Time to celebrate, no?

Just think! You don't have to suffer us fools anymore, right? It's in the bag, in the bank. No need to hang around, your work is done!

Time to hit the beach, the casinos, take a cruise, get some R & R. Good work, soldier. This Bud's for you (assuming Bud has been approved by the king for consumption. Please check with your local monarchy representative for a list of approved beverages for celebrating, and zones where approved celebrating is allowed, and the manner in which celebration may be conducted).

Rob
Desert Son | 09.29.06 - 3:23 pm | #

LOL. Given your eagerness to have the NY TImes publish whatever classified material thay can get their hands on, what do you care?

LOL...You're stupid. No wonder you're losing every war.
The Rest of the World | 09.29.06 - 3:25 pm | #

LOL. Given your eagerness to have the NY TImes publish whatever classified material thay can get their hands on, what do you care?
shooter242

Shithead's "LOL" is getting weaker by the day. I think he's spent.

Then again, he raises a good point. Why SHOULDN'T the US release all classified information, as long as sufficient time has passed that no US lives or programs can be imperiled? or is there something else to be afraid of? Crimes? Things the American voter wouldn't like?
Baldie McEagle | 09.29.06 - 3:26 pm | #

Hugh Hewitt...I wish someone would rendition your ass.
bobbob | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 3:29 pm | #

I call bs on 4200 calories a day. That would make them very fat very fast. An active adult doesn't nee dmore then 3000, I doubt these poeple are that active.
nathnaiel | 09.29.06 - 3:34 pm | #

Food is strictly halal and averages 4,200 calories per day. (The guards eat the same chow as the detainees, unless they venture to one of the on-base fast-food joints.) Most prisoners have gained weight.

I see you've updated. Richard Miniter had a similar quote.

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-b...i? ArtNum=158927
enozinho | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 3:37 pm | #

If they are treated as well as they say, and if the interrogations are as "soft sell" as they claim, why do they require torture legistlation?
Keith Rockhold | 09.29.06 - 3:56 pm | #

Travel Channel showed "Moms in Africa" last night where sheltered middle class American women visit Robben Island where Mandela was imprisoned. Their host was also a former prisoner. As he described his experience and showed them the cells they all cried.

In the future, will the American soccer moms tour the remains of Gitmo (a side trip on their post-Castro Cuban cruise?) and experience that sadness and shame?
Arleen Spector | 09.29.06 - 3:58 pm | #

Rob
Desert Son | 09.29.06 - 1:02 pm | #

Hey, Rob! You makea me laugh, thanks!
Uh, you were joking, right?
bamage | 09.29.06 - 3:58 pm | #

What you've got to love is that the decision who to detain is presumably made by the FBI, CIA, or military intelligence. The same folks who:

Couldn't prevent 9/11

Were wrong about WMDs in Iraq

Couldn't predict an insurgency in Iraq

Can't catch Bin Laden, the anthrax mailer, etc.

Well, I guess they're due to be right about something.
BRD | 09.29.06 - 4:02 pm | #

Nice touch Phoenix Woman, inviting stalking and harassment.

Ooohh, poor liddle itty biddy authortarian culty cutie-pie wets his pants agin. Liddle iddy baby pants need kweenex to wipe his authoritarian licking bottom??
Goodbye America | 09.29.06 - 4:02 pm | #

Interrogators rely on the soft sell. Detainees sit in a La-Z-Boy chair during interrogations, and beverages and movies are available to put them at ease. The most effective interrogator is said to be an older woman who adopts a nurturing attitude.

first of all, if the soft sell works, why the need to legalize torture???

secondly... the Gitmo Inquisition uses the comfy chair?
r€nato | 09.29.06 - 4:08 pm | #

Here's some prime shit-Steyn for you all. Can you arrest this guy, ship him off to a secret prison and torture him? Canadian law doesn't allow that but...well, when life gives you lemons, give Mark Steyn a lemonade enema, I say.
Barfing up North | 09.29.06 - 4:16 pm | #

spewter drools

bartfuck goes "goo goo goo"

and the troggos rejoice at the cretinous acts of a powermad fascist regime
liquified viscera | 09.29.06 - 4:20 pm | #

bamage,

Joking in which post? Sorry, I'm not very good at posting, and sometimes my posts are not very clear. In this case, can you clarify which post of mine you are referring to when you ask if I'm joking?

Thanks,

Rob
Desert Son | 09.29.06 - 4:23 pm | #

r€nato,

"the Gitmo Inquisition uses the comfy chair?"

Cardinal Fang!

Rob
Desert Son | 09.29.06 - 4:24 pm | #

The purpose of torture is torture. The purpose of power is power.

The signs are clear. Listen to the trolls. The id of the Republican party is out. They have always been there, but most regular people just dismiss them as blowhards. When sociopaths are challenged or asked to explain their inhumanity, they see it as an invitation to shock you with calls for more violence. This leads right into how they enjoy angering people who do not have authoritarian personalities. Getting us mad is pleasurable. They only principle they support is domination, yet they cherish their persecution complexes. They hide behind a veneer of pleasant catchphrases that their leaders dispense to the public, knowing full well that they are bullshit.

I can't believe I didn't take this personality type seriously as it was growing in this country. There wasn't really anything I could do, but I assumed America's closet sociopaths would keep to themselves. Now that they are enabled by the neocons, they feel there are no limits.
steve_e | 09.29.06 - 4:25 pm | #

steve_e --

I can't believe I didn't take this personality type seriously as it was growing in this country. There wasn't really anything I could do, but I assumed America's closet sociopaths would keep to themselves. Now that they are enabled by the neocons, they feel there are no limits.

Better that you acknowledge the truth now, steve, than to continue following your past self-delusion.

Congratulations on the courage to see reality as it is, rather than as the most frightened part of your subconscious wills it to be.
liquified viscera | 09.29.06 - 4:27 pm | #

One thing I am confident of about Steyn, Lowry et al. Once the show was over, and the keyboard warriors were gone, those running the show expressed profanity-laced contempt for any sucker stupid enough to fall for it.
Professor Foland | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 4:31 pm | #

bamage,

My apologies. I just now realized that you quoted the time of my post at 1:02 p.m., and that's the post about the horses and the Senate.

As you can see, I'm still figuring this Internet-thang out. I'm a slow study, unfortunately, but I do try to get there eventually.

Again, sorry about the confusion. As both yankeependragon and Baldie McEagle noted, I was using a historical reference, with humor, to make a point. Gaius Julius Caesar Agustus Germanicus was better known as Caligula, and in addition to being absolutely bug-fuck crazy, that particular emperor is famous for (among other things) making his horse a Senator.

My point was to try and reference that as an indication that the country continues to grant Bush the powers afforded to a king, or in the case of my reference, a Caesar.

But this is a nation that eschewed kings in its inception, and obeys the rule of law, not the rule of royalty. That's what I believe the United States should be about: the rule of law, not the rule of royalty.

Sorry for the confusion on my part. It's been a long couple of days, and I think we're headed for long years ahead, sailing dark waters.

Rob
Desert Son | 09.29.06 - 4:34 pm | #

anonymous at 4:31 p.m. wrote: "No wonder no one takes the left seriously."

Do you imply that everyone who posts at this site represents "the left?"

Regardless, if no one takes "the left" seriously (and by the extension of your presumption, the posters at this site), you must be exceedingly grateful that you don't have to waste any of your valuable time here.

Rob
Desert Son | 09.29.06 - 4:36 pm | #

Isn't it strange that so many commentators in this blog decry, in the most passionate and emotional terms, the "torture" of our mortal enemies during their lawful interrogations, yet write comment after comment wishing upon their domestic political opponents the most ghastly and sadistic tortures imaginable?

That's an easy one. Perfectly sane adults often use hyperbole as a rhetorical device, knowing that no one really expect them to, say, hold someone's head under water until they are terrified of death by drowning.

The government, OTOH, is quite serious about using these techniques against anyone they deem a legitimate target, regardless of the actual evidence against them. There is no hyperbole involved; only sadism and brutality.

See the difference?

Hope this helps...
Ames | 09.29.06 - 4:37 pm | #

Why didn't they show waterboarding? I guess didn't want to mess up the General's chair they borrowed for the sucker show.
tigrismus | 09.29.06 - 4:38 pm | #

Isn't it strange that so many commentators in this blog decry, in the most passionate and emotional terms, the "torture" of our m--

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
dave™© | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 4:38 pm | #

Pedophile Foley resign House seat in Florida. This was a safe puke seat. We are now one seat closer to taking back the House.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 4:39 pm | #

Perfectly sane adults often use hyperbole as a rhetorical device, knowing that no one really expect them to, say, hold someone's head under water until they are terrified of death by drowning.

I, however, will be more than happy to do it to any moronic brownshirt fuck willing to step up to the plate. Just clear a week off your schedule and we'll go at it!

Any takers?
dave™© | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 4:39 pm | #

Do you imply that everyone who posts at this site represents "the left?"

He can't be bothered to stick around long enough to actually know who comments here....

Strictly hit and run....or is that cut and run...?
Paul Dirks | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 4:40 pm | #

That over stuffed chair is straight out of the KUBARK manual.

From Mark Bowden's Atlantic article:

Interrogation is also highly theatrical. The Kubark Manual is very particular about setting the stage.

The room in which the interrogation is to be conducted should be free of distractions. The colors of the walls, ceiling, rugs, and furniture should not be startling. Pictures should be missing or dull. Whether the furniture should include a desk depends not upon the interrogator's convenience but rather upon the subject's anticipated reaction to the connotations of superiority and officialdom. A plain table may be preferable. An overstuffed chair for the use of the interrogatee is sometimes preferable to a straight-backed, wooden chair because if he is made to stand for a lengthy period or is otherwise deprived of physical comfort, the contrast is intensified and increased disorientation results.

crack | 09.29.06 - 4:42 pm | #

Isn't it strange that so many commentators in this blog decry, in the most passionate and emotional terms, the "torture" of our mortal enemies during their lawful interrogations, yet write comment after comment wishing upon their domestic political opponents the most ghastly and sadistic tortures imaginable?

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

The thing is, most of these people have finally woken up to the fact that "your mortal enemy" is us.

If the commentators here are representative of Democratic Party electorate, I feel quite confident the Republicans will retain control of both houses of Congress after the election in November.

None of us have just resigned a safe Republican seat in the House in Florida over an investigation into on-line pedophilia. That's pretty representative of Republican reprentatives. You can kiss the House good-bye.

No wonder no one takes the left seriously.
anonymous

Keep underestimating us like you do the insurgency elsewhere. We'll see the back of your necks soon enough.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 4:45 pm | #

LOL. Given your eagerness to have the NY TImes publish whatever classified material thay can get their hands on, what do you care?
shooter242

Condi interview with the NYTimes editorial board on 9/25/06:

SECRETARY RICE: I think that it has made other countries and, in some cases, other entities which have dealt with us, wonder about our reliability in keeping information confidential. I do. You know, it’s fine to say we ought to have an open debate about these things. You know, there are things that you keep confidential at the New York Times. There are.

QUESTION: There are?

SECRETARY RICE: Yeah, I would hope so. I would --

QUESTION: We try. (Laughter.)

SECRETARY RICE: I would assume – no, I assume so.

QUESTION: What are they? Our ability to keep a secret is considerably --

SECRETARY RICE: Yeah, but I assume in your board rooms that there are things that you keep confidential, right?

QUESTION: I don’t get to go to the board room.

SECRETARY RICE: I assume that there are – there is information that corporations keep confidential; it’s in their boardrooms. But somehow, when it’s the United States Government that is dealing with life and death, war and peace matters, allies who are putting their lives on the line, allies who have different political structures than we do and different obligations than we do, we’re not supposed to keep anything confidential. And so I --

QUESTION: Well, that’s taking it to extremes.

SECRETARY RICE: No.

QUESTION: And we – this paper has kept some of your secrets for you, too.

SECRETARY RICE: I understand that and I appreciate that. But I think that when it comes to – you know, I’m speaking to the leaks problem. I know this is a major, major issue in the journalistic community. But I can tell you from the point of view of somebody who has to (inaudible) security (inaudible), it’s a problem...

http://www.state.gov/secretary/r.../2006/ 73105.htm
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 4:51 pm | #

OK we all know these people have a creepy Bush fetish but here is what I don't understand: do they not get that the man can only serve 2 more years? I mean they do know that right? I ask because even though they think Bush has only our best interests in mind...he will be replaced. Is it really so hard for them to understand that even if they don't believe Bush has bad motives one day someone could come along and use the power to detain and torture someone at will for terrible ends?
erik28com | 09.29.06 - 4:53 pm | #

STEVE_E - All very well said -

The id of the Republican party is out. They have always been there, but most regular people just dismiss them as blowhards.

Part of what the Bush movement gives them is the freedom and safety to let it all go - it becomes acceptable to spew the basest and most primitive drives - in fact, they purposely nurture and trigger exactly those drives becasue it is what fuels their movement.

They only principle they support is domination, yet they cherish their persecution complexes.

These seem paradoxical, but they are actually directly related. Most of the social science in John Dean's book is grounded in this one point - people who seek out the safety and certainty of authoritarian movements do so, above all, because they are scared - scared of their own weakness, of moral ambiguity, of life's complexities - authoritarian movements give them simplistic, binary explanations and a sense of power.

Their obsession with domination and power is precisely because they feel so weak and persecuted.

I can't believe I didn't take this personality type seriously as it was growing in this country. There wasn't really anything I could do, but I assumed America's closet sociopaths would keep to themselves. Now that they are enabled by the neocons, they feel there are no limits.

I think a lot of people feel this way. I saw a comment to a C&L post I wrote last night that said this: "I never thought for one minute that the US was totally resistant to such monstrous government, but I never dreamed so much damage could be done in such a comparatively minuscule amount of time."

That is a pretty good summation of how I think about the state of things.
Glenn Greenwald | 09.29.06 - 4:53 pm | #

People (and I mean people with power, like many Republicans) just don't want Republicans to retain control of the Congress. That's why the dirt on these deviants is surfacing now.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060...zkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

This did not come from Democrats. It came from conservatives with conscience.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 4:55 pm | #

I thought time was of the essence with this torture bill. That every day wasted wrangling over the "clarity" of the standards meant thousands of lives potentially endangered.

Now we find out they take time outs for press junkets?
Kagro X | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 4:58 pm | #

I think a lot of people feel this way. I saw a comment to a C&L post I wrote last night that said this: "I never thought for one minute that the US was totally resistant to such monstrous government, but I never dreamed so much damage could be done in such a comparatively minuscule amount of time."

That is a pretty good summation of how I think about the state of things.
Glenn Greenwald

Joe Scarborough is an idiot. Rome was burnt in a day, by Nero.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 4:59 pm | #

Hey, even the worst tortures the USA has been able to devise pale in comparison to this:

"gouged-out eyeballs… wounds… in the head and genitals, broken bones of legs and hands, electric and cigarette burns… acid-induced injuries and burns caused by chemical substances, missing skin… missing teeth and wounds caused by power drills or nails."

This is what Iraqis are doing to each other every day under the helpless gaze of American troops. It sure makes even waterboarding look like a harmless frat prank, doesn't it?

And the worst part of it is, this stuff isn't even being done by "the enemy" Bush keeps warning us about.
Rufus | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 5:00 pm | #

Hours earlier, ABC News had read excerpts of instant messages provided by former male pages who said the congressman, under the AOL Instant Messenger screen name Maf54, made repeated references to sexual organs and acts.

This guy was the chairman of the House Caucus on Missing and Exploited Children.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 5:03 pm | #

To all anonymouses, since there are more than one of you and it is a pain to separate your comments by time-stamps, just choose some name and type it in the name line. It works just as anonymously as anonymous and makes for better discussions.
Nobody | 09.29.06 - 5:04 pm | #

Wow. I knew it already, but it's still beyond disturbing to read the comments by those who come here to celebrate their victory to torture others.
other Lisa | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 5:12 pm | #

Has someone mentioned Terezin, the concentration camp near Prague? It was used as a facade. It was made to look like a spa with swimming pools etc. The REd Cross was tricked and believed the Nazis. Thousands then were shipped to other camps and killed or killed at Terezin. The children's memorial in downtown Prague is heartbreaking.
Feral Cat | 09.29.06 - 5:19 pm | #

other Lisa,

"I knew it already, but it's still beyond disturbing to read the comments by those who come here to celebrate their victory to torture others."

Like I said earlier: sociopathy.

Rob
Desert Son | 09.29.06 - 5:19 pm | #

Speaking of sociopathy:

"This guy was the chairman of the House Caucus on Missing and Exploited Children."

There are no words . . . .

Rob
Desert Son | 09.29.06 - 5:21 pm | #

Rob,

Don't forget "sadism."
other Lisa | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 5:24 pm | #

In Stalag 17 the American prisioners were given clean blankets, but only for the one day the man from the Red Cross visited.
Hedley Lamarr | 09.29.06 - 5:24 pm | #

Feral Cat,

"Has someone mentioned Terezin,"

Several times.

How did we make it this long as a species, again? Seriously. Do we spawn faster than we crazy ourselves to death?

But, again, stay strong. Remember the words that have gone before: "We, the people, in order to form . . . ."

Rob
Desert Son | 09.29.06 - 5:29 pm | #

Theresienstadt (Film) („Der Führer schenkt den Juden eine Stadt“).
lysias | 09.29.06 - 5:30 pm | #

Yankeependragon:

From shooter242 at 12:19pm:

You should be happy, you're getting exactly what you want with the exception of letting these people go to shoot at us some more.

In making this statement, I'm presuming you have absolute, verified, convincing proof of the guilt of every single detainee presently being held by the US across the globe? Or are you simply assuming automatic guilt here?

And why do I know I'm never going to get an answer to this?
yankeependragon | 09.29.06 - 12:45 pm |

Gosh- here is a surprise- not one of the trolls did answer this. They defend the practice of torture, but not one has defended the fact that not all the folks detained/renditioned/tortured are actually guilty of something.
Oldguy | 09.29.06 - 5:33 pm | #

Uh, oh, shooter! Watch out! The Uighurs are free to shoot at you "again!"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world...cas/ 4979466.stm
Rufus | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 5:45 pm | #

You don't get it yankee. We torture them to make them reveal their guilt. Then, because they are guilty, we can torture them some more.

Sooner or later the administration will need to deal with an important problem---what to do with the bodies. Fortunately, we have allies who won't ask any questions. Kaazakhstan will hold plenty of formerly living dissidents, I mean terrists.
Baldie McEagle | 09.29.06 - 5:47 pm | #

And the worst part of it is, this stuff isn't even being done by "the enemy" Bush keeps warning us about.

Yes, it is. Both the Sunni and Shia death squads are intent upon destroying the nascent democracy now taking root in Iraq. They are the enemy. These groups are part of the same fascist Islamic death cult that includes the detainees at Guantanamo (and elsewhere), the Taliban in Afghanistan, the 9/11 suicide-murderers, and thousands of others worldwide who operate under the assumption that mass murder in the name of Allah is a ticket straight to paradise.

These people are not going to go away. The Greenwald appeasement program is not going to protect us. We need to kill them before they kill us, and although we’ve had mixed success so far, we are sure to fail without tools that include the ability to harshly interrogate those whom we capture on the battlefield. Thank God this is now the law of the land.

Next on the agenda? The NSA warrantless surveillance program.
anonymous | 09.29.06 - 5:49 pm | #

"The most effective interrogator is said to be an older woman who adopts a nurturing attitude."

Hey, what's this?! Rich Lowry believes in coddling terrorists?! Didn't Congress just pass a law because the President said our agents cannnot protect us unless they can torture information out of the bad guys?
frightwig | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 5:51 pm | #

My mama always told me: never trust a Uighur. I'm sure peashooter agrees.

And if you can't trust'em (shifty eyes, you know, slanty too), then you can't let them have a homeland, can you? They'd just steal it.

Thank God for the Chinese!

Three cheers for the Ten Year War Plan!

Praise God and George Bush!

Jesus was tortured too! :(
Baldie McEagle | 09.29.06 - 5:52 pm | #

Baldie McEagle,

"You don't get it yankee. We torture them to make them reveal their guilt. Then, because they are guilty, we can torture them some more."

Ah, yes, the old Spanish Inquisition theme: hold the woman underwater. If she floats up to the top, she's a witch and should be burned. If she drowns, praise God, she wasn't a witch!

[boggle]

Rob
Desert Son | 09.29.06 - 5:55 pm | #

"anonymous" --

Both the Sunni and Shia death squads are intent upon destroying the nascent democracy now taking root in Iraq. They are the enemy.

The only thing they are "the enemy" of is an invading force that is trying to inmpose its foreign, misplaced and xenophilic will upon them.
liquified viscera | 09.29.06 - 5:55 pm | #

These groups are part of the same fascist Islamic death cult that includes the detainees at Guantanamo (and elsewhere), the Taliban in Afghanistan, the 9/11 suicide-murderers, and thousands of others worldwide who operate under the assumption that mass murder in the name of Allah is a ticket straight to paradise.

Wait a minute Mouse. Which death cult is this? Oh, you mean the entire religion of Islam? Yes, someone worked for me once who converted to Islam. I don't remember her talking about death much--mostly she was concerned with finding a house she could afford and raising her daughter. But I'll bet she was thinking about it all the time.

Dailywanks, is that you?
Baldie McEagle | 09.29.06 - 5:56 pm | #

Somewhere today I read something to the effect that many Senators voted for the detainee and torture bill knowing it was a bad bill. It is a true statement. I know Spector knew the bill was unconstitutional and he voted for it anyway. Too many Democrats voted for it too so they would not be viewed as "soft on terrorism," yet knowing Bush will label them as soft and many stupid citizens will absorb Bush's message and continue blindly to follow Bush to collective oblivion. It is unimaginable that so many Senators would knowing vote for a terrible and destructive bill. Today, billions of dollars are voted to be wasted by the Congress for "defense." Its not "defense", its "offense" and its offensive in the most obscene way. Recently the phrase "the Constitution is not a suicide pact." It seems the statement is incorrect as our nation commits the mass suicide of our experiment in democracy.

Today, I'm finally convinced the whole nation is collectively insane. The nation is certainly in a suicide spiral. The last few days in Washington were simply surreal. Yet, Gray's Anatomy is what the people pay attention to. Dare to say few common folk understand we have just voted to end habeas corpus and due process for thousands.

We are earning our due and it will not be pretty! The grand experiment is fading fast.

I quit for the day. I'm going to watch the sunset now. There is nothing more that can be done until the lengthening night is over!
Nobody | 09.29.06 - 6:03 pm | #

Having no tradition of acting under habeas corpus, Miranda, or respecting the Constitutional rights of suspects or arrestees makes Homeland Security the logical choice to embark on the path to fascist justice.
And besides every god-damned one of those Homeland Security agents knows he owes his job solely to Bush. You know, like the SS.
A classic recipe for police-state disaster.
Mooser | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 6:04 pm | #

Nobody, you are seeing things as they are. It is disheartening to see them as such, but it beats the unholy living shit out of pretending they are otherwise and somnambulating into the Blackwater Express cars that will transport you to Camp PeeNac where they apply the corrective measures of delousing by 220V shock therapy in 15-minute bursts, punctuated by 5 minute "rests" during which you are bathed in carbon tetrachloride.
liquified viscera | 09.29.06 - 6:06 pm | #

I think they should be nominated for the "Walter Duranty" prize myself (an honor I just made up) as this year's best embodiment of the spirit of the late Pulitzer Prize winning New York Times journalist from the 1930's - see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wal.../ Walter_Duranty
Jim D. | 09.29.06 - 6:18 pm | #

Foley Resigns Over Sexually Explicit Messages to Minors

In Congress, Rep. Foley (R-FL) was part of the Republican leadership and the chairman of the House caucus on missing and exploited children.

He crusaded for tough laws against those who used the Internet for sexual exploitation of children.

"They're sick people; they need mental health counseling," Foley said.

But, according to several former congressional pages, the congressman used the Internet to engage in sexually explicit exchanges.
Plan A | 09.29.06 - 6:20 pm | #

What is there left to stop the Bush administration from building a dozen concentration camps for their political enemies?

Really, I'm being serious. Congressional funding? Public opinion? I think we've all seen how they get around those two minor hurdles....
e_five | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 6:23 pm | #

Why do you think Bart isn't a real person?
http://citizen-pamphleteer.blogspot.com
sysprog | 09.29.06 - 1:00 pm | #

Web site with photo...

http://depalmalaw.com/_wsn/page2.html
e_five | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 6:28 pm | #

lv, baldie:

Do you suppose it's possible that anonymous' tongue was stuck firmly in its cheek when it wrote that?
IngSoc | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 6:37 pm | #

IngSoc, you're right, "anonymous" was a fake wingnut, because he used the word "warrantless" and no real wingnut ever says that. They always say "TSP" (Terrorist Surveillance Program).
sysprog | 09.29.06 - 6:40 pm | #

The Greenwald appeasement program :

Cut and Run.

Cut the bullshit and run the government right.

The Dems are the party of Cut and Run.

The Cut the bullshit and Run the government they way it ought to be run Party.

Big Brother is watching you | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 6:29 pm | #

http://www.haloscan.com/ comments...5407378#1850869

Foley could spend years in prison due to a law to protect kids from online pedophiles he helped to enact.

There is an Allah.
Mark Foley | 09.29.06 - 6:42 pm | #

i realize im a little late to the comment party today, but i think that the "it doesnt work" vs "it's wrong" debate is a little, let us say, stupid.
it is wrong BECAUSE it doesnt work. if it "worked" i.e. produced reliable, factual information regularly, then it would no longer be such a demonstration of naked power, and additionally, there would be a push for economy of effort within the community that specializes in interrogation, much as there has been a significant push for the reduction of suffering and power analysis in animal experimentation.
rigel | 09.29.06 - 6:42 pm | #

I suggest we starting referring to anonymous | 09.29.06 - 5:49 pm as "Captain anonymous" since he's clearly getting his talking points from comic books. I don't think Flash Gordon himself ever faced a menace as ....well menacing as "the fascist Islamic death cult".
Paul Dirks | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 6:43 pm | #

IngSoc | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 6:37 pm | #

Maybe. But like with "the Major," bad satire on a subject that is far from trivial is something I find highly UNfunny.
liquified viscera | 09.29.06 - 6:43 pm | #

What are you alll wearing? I'm not wearing any pants!
Mark Foley | 09.29.06 - 6:43 pm | #

From anonymous at

These groups are part of the same fascist Islamic death cult that includes the detainees at Guantanamo (and elsewhere), the Taliban in Afghanistan, the 9/11 suicide-murderers, and thousands of others worldwide who operate under the assumption that mass murder in the name of Allah is a ticket straight to paradise.

How can one possiblyargue against such sterling, factless, impregnable logic?

I suppose you've read the entire "Left Behind" series, check The Rapture Index everyday, and seriously think the Hanso Corporation is going save the world as we know it.

These people are not going to go away.

Of what, pray tell?

The Greenwald appeasement program is not going to protect us. We need to kill them before they kill us, and although we’ve had mixed success so far, we are sure to fail without tools that include the ability to harshly interrogate those whom we capture on the battlefield.

So we must become barbarians and thugs to defeat...who is the enemy again?

Thank God this is now the law of the land.

Either you're being very ironic, you're getting paid to spew this crap, or you're utterly insane.

Next on the agenda? The NSA warrantless surveillance program.
anonymous | 09.29.06 - 5:49 pm | #
yankeependragon | 09.29.06 - 6:45 pm | #

e_five | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 6:28 pm | #

Real or not, he's still Bartfuck the Bumbling Babymind.
liquified viscera | 09.29.06 - 6:45 pm | #

Naturally, I give everythign I read here an irony check. But there is nothing ironic about repeating the neos' talking points verbatim and signing your name "anonymous."

Not using the correct terminology merely indicates the poster is not a professional troll.
Baldie McEagle | 09.29.06 - 6:45 pm | #

What really gives me a sinking feeling is realizing that in the end the only way to fight that sort of people is to kill them.

This country can't endure being half-enlightened and half-barbaric any more than it could endure being half-free and half-slave.
Hedley Lamar | 09.29.06 - 11:53 am |

I disagree. I think we could avoid having to kill all or most of them if we would just rise up in mass civil disobedience and ultimately ridicule them back under their rocks. They are cowards at heart and would fold quickly. I could be wrong but I think if there was a ground swell and real, continuous mass protests they would eventually capitulate. I know this does not solve the problem in the long term. They will always be there lying in wait. But I would rather not go down the "final solution" path even though I basically believe they are fundamentally evil and the world would be a better place without Dean's 25(?)%.

As for the second part of your statement I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately this may lead us back to your first statement and wondering if Sherman's tactics are our only hope. If Sherman were alive today I honestly think he might say: Well I obviously didn't go far enough." Wesley Clark's march to Salt Lake city? I hope not, but perhaps it is necessary.

.
adnoto | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 6:46 pm | #

e-five and sysprog,

Thanks for the confirmation. It looks like Harold "Bart" DePalma is a real person, and not the collective efforts of several individuals on a rotation.

Harold, I formally withdraw my proposition that your posts here are the collaborative works of several individuals writing under a single handle.

I also formally apologize for suspecting that particular deception as being attributable to you.

Rob
Desert Son | 09.29.06 - 6:49 pm | #

Today, I'm finally convinced the whole nation is collectively insane. The nation is certainly in a suicide spiral. The last few days in Washington were simply surreal. Yet, Gray's Anatomy is what the people pay attention to. Dare to say few common folk understand we have just voted to end habeas corpus and due process for thousands.

Nobody

I don't agree about the "insane" part except in a metaphorical sense. Yes, there is a sickness. But the lust for power, when said power is not only within your grasp but IN your grasp, is not really insane, at least not in the sense of delusional. It's cold reality and should be regarded and responded to as such.

It can only be cured by death or a room with a steel door.
Baldie McEagle | 09.29.06 - 6:51 pm | #

What is there left to stop the Bush administration from building a dozen concentration camps for their political enemies?

e_five -

In all seriousness, it is my understanding that they are already building the camps. No joke. I don't have the link handy but I am fairly confident Haliburton has been contracted to build camps that are being referred to as "national disaster" camps or something of that nature. Google it. I am sure you will hit upon it.

.
adnoto | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 6:53 pm | #

I don't agree about the "insane" part except in a metaphorical sense.

If we define insane as being when one part of the psyche is working to the detriment of the whole person then insanity fits the bill pretty well.
Paul Dirks | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 6:57 pm | #

The detachment of those on whom you report at Gitmo reminds me of the kind of presentation offered by Rudolf Hoess, the now long dead administrator of Auschwitz, when questioned about his work there. Hoess was hung in Poland in 1947 for his crimes, of course, but this species of detachment seems typical of the type that regards human beings in some cases as vermin. We've reached a nadir when we have arrogance of the sort typical of the SS parading about so casually. And yet the James Dobsons and the Richard Lands consistently find a way either to deny or to rationalize it. What have we become?

John Lowell
john lowell | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 7:01 pm | #

Here is one link concerning the Halliburton "Detention Camps" or whatever you want to call them. I found it by Googling "Halliburton concentration camps". Not vowing for its accuracy but there are plenty of other articles on the subject.

TruthOut.org

.
adnoto | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 7:02 pm | #

Both the Sunni and Shia death squads are intent upon destroying the nascent democracy now taking root in Iraq. They are the enemy.

The Shiite death squad are part of the ruling coalition in the democratically elected government we helped bring to power.

Insert snide comment of your choice about democratically elected death squads.
Enlightened Layperson | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 7:03 pm | #

This Is What Waterboarding Looks Like
Plan A | 09.29.06 - 7:06 pm | #

Insert snide comment of your choice about democratically elected death squads.

I'm not in position to comment. Didn't we just duly elect a torture squad?
Paul Dirks | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 7:07 pm | #

Here's what Dean Barnett, guest blogger on Hugh Hewitt's blog, says to the question:

"But it's not just terrorists. It's suspected terrorists. Surely that bothers you."

"It does. It’s inevitable that innocent people will be subjected to this kind of treatment. But this is war, and in war we make moral compromises."

Left unsaid is the fact that, in an endless war, those "moral compromises" become permanent.
Rufus | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 7:10 pm | #

Fox News:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/ 0,2933,198456,00.html

Critics Fear Emergency Centers Could Be Used for Immigration Round-Ups
The military contractor that built the prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and jails throughout Iraq has been tapped to construct facilities in the United States to be used in the event of "an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S."

[...] Doug Kmiec, (*) a professor of law at Pepperdine University, called the internment camp analogy “more paranoia than reality. [...] It seems more logical to see this contract as something related to (Hurricane) Katrina. We have to have relocation centers for people which are safe and can provide basic services to people for longer periods of time,” he said, adding that another potential “emergency“ is a bird flu outbreak that could spur a mass quarantine of Americans. “This is far from being a plan for Japanese internment redux,” said Kmiec. “This is something that the government should be applauded for, for anticipating something that may be inevitable.”

So who you gonna believe? Some wacko conspiracy theorists? Or freedom fighters (**) like Kmiec and Fox News?

(*) Kmiec from the Hamdi case? Yes.
(**) You know what I mean.
sysprog | 09.29.06 - 7:17 pm | #

Waterboarding?

That's part of the deception. They don't use water. They use Coca-Cola. You should be able to figure it out on your own. Talk about pain.
Mark Foley | 09.29.06 - 7:26 pm | #

The Foley scandal reminded the editor of an exchange he had with Foley on Fox's Hannity & Colmes regarding comments made by Rep. Cynthia McKinney in April 2002 about Bush having prior warnings of the 911 attacks (now accepted as a fact):
FOLEY: I have no problem with any investigation, but let's not make a comparison between people who have been killed and people who are profiting from their death. I think this is the outrageous part of it. I will look at those situations, but I will not accept Cynthia McKinney's bald-faced lies and the kind of reprehensible statements she's made.
COLMES: I agree with that. But the investigation aspect of it I think is something -- maybe she has a point on that one.
I know you want to respond, Wayne. Go ahead.
MADSEN: Well, it's typical. Attack the messenger. I mean, isn't it funny? The Republicans, when Bill Clinton was president, they dragged him into every possible conspiracy theory, except for linking him to the Lindbergh baby kidnapping. I mean, now we see the same people saying Cynthia McKinney has no right to her opinion. She's out there. I think it's nonsense.
FOLEY:... I think, in this particular instance, she has a fiduciary, as a member of Congress, to tell the facts and not lie.
HANNITY: Absolutely. Good line.
MADSEN: I think the Congress has a responsibility to investigate.
Plan A | 09.29.06 - 7:38 pm | #

"The most effective interrogator is said to be an older woman who adopts a nurturing attitude."

So, the most effective interrogator doesn't torture? Hmmm, I don't think that's what the Administration wants the public think...
cfaller96 | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 7:42 pm | #

The Real Problem With Foley (0 / 0)

It's not that he's gay. It's that he constantly hits on underage interns on The Hill. You guys talk about an "open secret" well Foley's eye for the young boys in the White House and around the Capitol is what has the Republican bosses scared to death. It's just wrong that this guy can hit on young boys and still be in the leadership.

by WHInternNow on Tue Sep 05, 2006 at 05:48:09 PM PDT

A comment from Daily Kos three weeks ago. It seems Foley's proclivities were a matter of common knowledge on Capitol Hill at that point.
lysias | 09.29.06 - 7:44 pm | #

Of course, these terrorists were underprivileged to begin with, so this is working out rather well for them!
Babs | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 7:44 pm | #

Wir mussen die Republikan ausrotten.
r€nato | 09.29.06 - 7:48 pm | #

Explosive stuff by Aravosis on AMERICAblog, by the way: House GOP Leadership knew about Foley almost a year ago, let Foley remain in House leadership, let him remain as chair of House sex offender caucus .
lysias | 09.29.06 - 7:55 pm | #

Insert snide comment of your choice about democratically elected death squads.

I'm not in position to comment. Didn't we just duly elect a torture squad?

That was my point.
Enlightened Layperson | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 8:04 pm | #

But this is war, and in war we make moral compromises."

The 'It's a feature, not a bug' of military justice.
Davis X. Machina | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 8:14 pm | #

Rob:

Does anyone know if Bush owns any horses, and if so, are they up for Senate seats?

IIRC, "Cowboy" Dubya is afraid of horses.

Cheers,
Arne Langsetmo | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 8:16 pm | #

Brave "anonymous":

Nice touch Phoenix Woman, inviting stalking and harassment.

Didntcha know? It's legal now. And there's no court of recourse fer ya. Welcome to your new world. Enjoy it while you can.

Cheers,
Arne Langsetmo | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 8:22 pm | #

Hey kids, what time is it?
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2006Sep29/ 0,4670,GonzalesJudges,00.html
Gonzales Cautions Judges on Interfering

Friday, September 29, 2006
By MICHAEL J. SNIFFEN, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON — Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, who is defending President Bush's anti-terrorism tactics in multiple court battles, said Friday that federal judges should not substitute their personal views for the president's judgments in wartime. He said the Constitution makes the president commander in chief [...] The attorney general did not refer to any specific case or decision but only to wartime, military and foreign affairs cases in general.

It's wartime!
sysprog | 09.29.06 - 8:26 pm | #

Bush's Mysterious 'New Programs'

Not that George W. Bush needs much encouragement, but Sen. Lindsey Graham suggested to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales a new target for the administration's domestic operations - Fifth Columnists, supposedly disloyal Americans who sympathize and collaborate with the enemy.

"The administration has not only the right, but the duty, in my opinion, to pursue Fifth Column movements," Graham, R-S.C., told Gonzales during Senate Judiciary Committee hearings on Feb. 6.

"I stand by this President's ability, inherent to being Commander in Chief, to find out about Fifth Column movements, and I don't think you need a warrant to do that," Graham added, volunteering to work with the administration to draft guidelines for how best to neutralize this alleged threat.

"Senator," a smiling Gonzales responded, "the President already said we'd be happy to listen to your ideas...."

...Scott speculated that the "detention centers could be used to detain American citizens if the Bush administration were to declare martial law." He recalled that during the Reagan administration, National Security Council aide Oliver North organized Rex-84 "readiness exercise," which contemplated the Federal Emergency Management Agency rounding up and detaining 400,000 "refugees," in the event of "uncontrolled population movements" over the Mexican border into the United States.

Farrell pointed out that because "another terror attack is all but certain, it seems far more likely that the centers would be used for post-911-type detentions of immigrants rather than a sudden deluge" of immigrants flooding across the border.

Vietnam-era whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg said, "Almost certainly this is preparation for a roundup after the next 9/11 for Mid-Easterners, Muslims and possibly dissenters. They've already done this on a smaller scale, with the 'special registration' detentions of immigrant men from Muslim countries, and with Guantanamo."

Labor Camps

There also was another little-noticed item posted at the US Army Web site, about the Pentagon's Civilian Inmate Labor Program. This program "provides Army policy and guidance for establishing civilian inmate labor programs and civilian prison camps on Army installations...."
Plan A | 09.29.06 - 8:31 pm | #

You just love your party. Fascist.
prunes | 09.29.06 - 2:16 pm | #

The term 'fascist' has been superseded.

'Republican' is the Godwinism now.
freedom fighter | 09.29.06 - 8:33 pm | #

Israel Sends in the Clowns
By MICHAEL J. SMITH

...The occasion was a "debate," hosted by the London Review of Books, on the question, "The Israel Lobby: Does it have too much influence on US foreign policy?"

The prosecution team consisted of professors Mearsheimer, Rashid Khalidi from Columbia, and Tony Judt, from NYU. Appearing for the defense were Israel lobbyists Indyk and Ross, both of whom also served Israel's cause as prominent members of the Clinton administration... joined by redundant Israeli labor party politician Shlomo Ben-Ami.

..In particular, Mearsheimer and Walt argue, we would not have had an Iraq war without the Lobby's contribution. These are, to say the least, fighting words....

Indyk and Ross showed up in fighting trim, and Slaughter threw them a slow soft one in her first question: Was the Mearsheimer-Walt paper anti-Semitic?

Well, more or less, yes, was the predictable answer from Israel's defense bench. Mearsheimer, said the imposing, silver-maned Indyk, postulates a sinister "cabal" (he must have used this word a hundred times over the next two hours) that includes "anyone who has a good word to say about Israel." With regard to the Iraq war, Indyk's trump card was that the Israel lobby couldn't have made that happen, since the Israel lobby really wanted to go after -- Iran!...

The other fish in question, it appears, is that all these guys would very much like to be back in office. And on this point, sadly, they seemed to have much of the audience with them.

So the burden of their song, last night, was that the Lobby is not the problem. Rather -- they sang, in close three-part harmony -- rather, the problem is that we have these awful Republicans in power here... Want to make things better? Throw the rascals out, and put us back in.

The rodentine Ross put it most crassly: "If Al Gore had been president, we would not have had an Iraq war." The crowd, I'm sorry to say, loved it....

If you've read Clayton Swisher's remarkable book, The Truth About Camp David, then the picture that Indyk and Ross and Ben-Ami were painting of an assertive Clinton holding Israel's feet to the fire will look a little strange. In fact, last night was something of a reunion for Indyk and Ross and Ben-Ami, who were all participants in the Clinton "peace process" -- and all working for the same side, though Indyk and Ross held US passports and Ben-Ami an Israeli one. As Aaron Miller, Ross' former deputy from that period, famously observed later, "far too often, we functioned in this process, for want of a better word, as Israel's lawyer."

But the rewriting of history, and the retrospective rose-tinting of Democratic and Labor administrations, is a favorite liberal game, and the Manhattan congregation largely approved. Indyk, Ross and Ben-Ami were able to put over the virtuoso turn of denying, in one breath, that the Israel lobby has any power, and promising, in the next breath, to neutralize that power if they could only get back into their helicopters...

...the best proof of the Mearsheimer-Walt thesis was sitting in front of us all night, in the form of Ross and Indyk themselves. These two have spent their careers alternating between organizations like AIPAC and WINEP on the one hand, and guarding the Middle East henhouse in government on the other...
Plan A | 09.29.06 - 9:08 pm | #

Hedley, the more I read from our resident trolls, the more I argee with your statement.

These folks are now rabid in their fear.
If we can't cure them, they must be confined or put down.
Stompy | 09.29.06 - 9:25 pm | #

Glenn: "These two coddled authoritarian cultists are giggling about people who have been put into cages for the last five years on an island, away from their lives and their families, with little hope of ever being released."

Hitler has films made of enemies being hung with piano wire. He and his cronies would sit and giggle as the faces of their victims turned blue and their tongues stuck out of their mouths. Adolph spent hours in his private theater in the Reich Chancellery with his snuff flicks -- even as the war was being lost.

It's just part of the culture, I guess.
billmon | 09.29.06 - 9:28 pm | #

I believe it's going to be necessary to kill them. It's going to take WW2-scale death in North America to rid the world of the vermin.
freedom fighter

Wow. Combatting eliminationist rhetoric with more of the same is, how to put it?

Well, it's either unhinged radicalism (you know, kinda like the Khmer Rouge) or trolling.
other Lisa | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 9:40 pm | #

A caller to the unctuous Hugh Hewitt's show just laid into poor Spew yesterday. It was amazing that they didn't cut him off:

"You're such a Bush pimp"

"You lie for a living"

"Was Nixon a great president?"

Hewitt responded: "Yes"
Webster Hubble Telescope | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 9:59 pm | #

I add this too-long comment late because I spent today boning up on habeas. Among other things looked for tea leaves amid the recent SCOTUS opinions on detainees.

I've only read parts of the MCA, but its ambiguities and slapdash enactment raise possibilities. A modest one is that the Court (as constituted) will exploit drafting glitches and the absence of a legislative record to neuter key provisions pending further word on what Congress "really meant." The Rehnquist court perfected such techniques, mostly for odious ends, but the Court is versed in them. Hegel called such unwitting bequests "the cunning of reason."

In such a scenario – and there are others – a Congress only one chamber of which had switched hands would give us a second wind on what now occasions hand-wringing. That alone validates Glenn's point. Others could be added. But let me instead make two remarks.

First, fantasies of flight are just that: Stephen Harper's Canada is going neocon. Ditto Australia and (as it now stands) UK. In the world that speaks little or no English we are already on the bad list, and anyone respectable there should want the US to straighten itself out and look unkindly on one who quits the task early.

Like Martin Luther, we can do no other than stand here: there's no there there. Our democratic apparatus is antique. Too much wealth and political power are in too few hands. But it will never be easier to turn our situation around, and this will be true much further into the night.

Noam Chomsky said there are just two forces in the world: corporations and public opinion. This brings me to my second point.

Our career politicians have let us down time and again, but in a pattern that can be quickly summed up: those we look to for salvation are not reared in navigating constitutional crises, and those we despise have brought one on. We know this, but we can do better. We flit from one mini-crisis to another, either with no shared sense of the whole, or with too many competing ones, or in the illusion that we've finally hit the nail on the head and arrived at a tipping point. In this way we lose heart, as if we just learned we had to fix a torn spider's web.

I have no grand strategy, but three resources have helped me feel less than helpless. The first is Lincoln. He saw a crisis and tried to head it off. He is often quoted but not at length, and any one of his major, even some of his routine addresses, takes a better measure of a constitutional crisis than all of our politicians' put together. Right now the Straussians are appropriating him. We could do worse than reclaim him. He is online, as yet net-neutrally.

The second is the Powell memo. Written in 1971 by the soon-to-be-Justice Lewis Powell, it is at www.reclaimdemocracy.org/corporate_accountability/ powell_memo_lewis.html. It is short. I recommend it for two reasons.

First, it sets out the strategy we now contend with. It anticipates David Horowitz's attack on the academy. Bank of Boston v. Bellotti (Powell's 1977 opinion enabling corporate political action) cleared funds for the rightwing juggernaut. Horowitz, Rove, Luntz, Coulter are all cogs in the wheel it envisioned. Why not see the wheel?

Second, like Lincoln, it shows the scope of our burden if only by contrast. Many of us function on its level, but it is one thing to have an individual grasp and another to have common knowledge. It would be good if something like it were drawn up and circulated. (No, I don't have a draft.)

Third is 1930's Europe. I follow Godwin's law – not using the "f" word in postings – because, like Lincoln's quotes, "fascism" is thrown out without no grasp of disanalogies or parallels to our case. But I do so with regrets. Take the MCA debate. Hitler's Enabling Act began with a four-year sunset; Obama could not get five. Reid looked to McCain and the JAG; Hitler's last roadblock was Alfred Hugenberg, a Krupp magnate who like McCain thought he had a deal; thereafter Hitler's worst nemesis was the military. Stepping back, how many know that to its last days the Third Reich operated under the Weimar constitution? There are myriad such lessons. But they need to be cut down to size and woven into what we say, think and do.

Lincoln, Powell, Germans who were more than "good Germans" - all had a grasp of something big to do. The first two shaped a political culture; the last had its day in an aftermath. We won't rise to the occasion without such a grasp. But it does not come out of the blue.

The Democrats are not our be all and end all, but we will get them closer to what we need by setting a standard. For now, we need to stay with them for the reason given at the end of Annie Hall:

This guy goes to a psychiatrist and says, "Doc, uh, my brother's crazy; he thinks he's a chicken." And, uh, the doctor says, "Well, why don't you turn him in?" The guy says, "I would, but I need the eggs." Well, I guess that's pretty much now how I feel about relationships; y'know, they're totally irrational, and crazy, and absurd, and... but, uh, I guess we keep goin' through it because, uh, most of us... need the eggs.

Our situation is a bit worse, but only somewhat. We're seeing a lot of bad eggs. But then our chickens are caged. And we can let them out.
CreepingTruth | 09.29.06 - 10:07 pm | #

other Lisa | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 9:40 pm | #

Actually, I have to wonder to what extreme you would have to see things go before you realized that sometimes, self-defense requires lethal force. When the folks in power have the means to ship you off to an impoundment without any due process and without anyone knowing about it, you might think it noble to wait for them to actually spirit you away to that place before you begin considering defending yourself.

If you think my impression of the current state of affairs in the American Government is overblown, I would reply that you really don't have the slightest fucking clue what you are up against, and I would hope that whatever gauzy delusion now lies between your brain and your perceptual awareness would be lifted pretty quickly, within the next few weeks at least.
liquified viscera | 09.29.06 - 10:09 pm | #

CreepingTruth | 09.29.06 - 10:07 pm | #

That's a whole lot of wording spent when you could have simply said, "trust the Democrats, they're our best hope."

And I submit that your willful self-delusion will be your undoing, in the same manner by which it has undone our government by its daily practice since January 2001 without so much as a whimper by those supposedly brave and worthy Democrats that you would have us trust.
liquified viscera | 09.29.06 - 10:12 pm | #

I think the situation is extremely serious, marks a historical turning point and might not be recoverable. I think we might be witnessing the fall of the American Empire. But I'm very curious what you mean when you talk about lethal force. How would you apply it? How would you practically accomplish your goals - and what are those goals?

I have posed this question elsewhere and I am completely serious about it - what is the appropriate action? It's something I've been wrestling with a great deal.

But the reason that we object to torture is that we believe it is wrong. Talking about mass killing and violence - I mean, that is what is being discussed, right? Well, in my book, I don't believe that killing people who disagree with me is particularly desirable or moral.

I agree there are times in history where there is no other choice but to fight. But are you really saying that you want, I don't know, a civil war? An armed insurrection?

Do you really think that's the only option? Do you really think it would work?
other Lisa | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 10:26 pm | #

FISA news: Phone companies shield NOT added to security bill.
Earlier today, Susan Cornwell of Reuters reported that telephone company immunity might be tacked on to the port security bill.
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/ 2006/09/29/AR2006092900807.html

Friday, September 29, 2006
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A provision that would shield telephone companies from liability for providing call records to help the U.S. government track terrorists may be added to a port security bill, U.S. Senate sources told Reuters on Friday.

Luckily, that didn't happen.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory? id=2510093

Sep 29, 2006 — By Susan Cornwell
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Congress was pushing on Friday to finish legislation that would boost security at U.S. ports, but at the last minute lawmakers added provisions to prohibit Internet gambling. [...] There were attempts on Friday to add other unrelated amendments, but apart from the Internet gambling provisions, the others were rejected, a top House leadership aide said. [...] Those rejected included an attempt to shield telephone companies from liability for privacy violations if they supply the U.S. government with access to customer records. This idea came from Alaskan Sen. Ted Stevens, Republican sources said.

Is the old master losing his touch ... or will Ted Stevens keep trying?
sysprog | 09.29.06 - 10:36 pm | #

other Lisa | Homepage | 09.29.06 - 10:26 pm | #

If you want to know what I really, truly think is necessary right now... I see a few sensible options.

1) Move to another country. For me that would be dead north to Canada, I'd never say where within that country though.

2) Stay here, go off-grid or as close thereto as possible.

Those who choose (2) should be preparing for some sort of Civil War. Yes, I do believe it is going to become likely within my lifetime. I expect to die of natural causes some 40 - 50 years from now if my blood ancestors are any indication of my likely lifeline. That gives you some sense of what I foresee.

Of course there's another option (3) which says, stay here, pretend nothing's wrong, and stay on-grid and become assimilated as a PNAC Borg. But I would argue that such a course will corrode the spirit and soul, and I'd wager that I'm not wrong on that one.

The acts of those currently in power in Washington go well beyond normal politician corruption. Well beyond it. If you think the USA has seen similar stuff in its history and weathered it happily or healthily, I'd enjoy hearing your stories of such history, because I'm dead unaware of them.
liquified viscera | 09.29.06 - 10:43 pm | #

Stompy - It sounds like you are talking about the regular readers of this blog. The wailing and gnashing of teeth, the keening and death knells of democracy have been nothing short of astounding. The fear (and paranoia) is on the left, not right. The right knows, unlike the left, knows what to do, and if not unreasonably obstructed by the delusional left, has little reason to fear in trying to follow the correct steps to protect this country now and for future. It is the left that needs to hear that big "POP" sound and feel the rush of air from pulling its collective head out of its ass.
daleyrocks | 09.29.06 - 10:57 pm | #

That's a whole lot of wording spent when you could have simply said, "trust the Democrats, they're our best hope."

And I submit that your willful self-delusion will be your undoing, in the same manner by which it has undone our government by its daily practice since January 2001 without so much as a whimper by those supposedly brave and worthy Democrats that you would have us trust.
I wish I had the first inkling of what you just said. It bears no intelligible bearing what I did. Trust has nothing to do with it. Strategy has everything.

You'll forgive me for saying this, but if you turned your keypad down to "slow simmer" and took the time to read what I took the time to write, you might start a discussion worth having. I earnestly wish you would.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 11:06 pm | #

goo goo goo dillywhacks. goo goo goo.
liquified viscera | 09.29.06 - 11:10 pm | #

Stompy - I meant this:

These folks are now rabid in their fear.
If we can't cure them, they must be confined or put down.
Stompy | 09.29.06 - 9:25 pm | #

-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
daleyrocks | 09.29.06 - 11:11 pm | #

I wish I had the first inkling of what you just said. It bears no intelligible bearing what I did. Trust has nothing to do with it. Strategy has everything. You'll forgive me for saying this, but if you turned your keypad down to "slow simmer" and took the time to read what I took the time to write, you might start a discussion worth having. I earnestly wish you would.

ahem.

indeed I did read your post. my comment stands.
liquified viscera | 09.29.06 - 11:11 pm | #

I can't guess what you mean, in that case. Be specific. You are not saying anything.

You may be more irritated with the Dems than I, but I have no reason to think so until you tell me why. Also why you think I am not based on what I said.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 11:15 pm | #

You began your post by saying you read three things re habeas corpus which heartened you. Then you meandered about with a lot of wording but really said very little of substance, mainly trotting out some citations to persons gone before us and their thoughts, while saying nothing of great substance nor relevance to the death of democracy handed to us by our US Congress. Then you closed by saying something that essentially opined, the Dems aren't the best we have, but they are all we have.

Just because you used a few clever turns of phrase and wrote in a demi-academic essay style doesn't mean that you're revealing any new "strategy" that has any remote relevance to our current problems.
liquified viscera | 09.29.06 - 11:26 pm | #

I'm not sure what the point is in leaving the country, unless you are just trying to buy time. If the U.S. goes 4'th reich we won't be alone, and the resulting conflagration will be like nothing before imaginable. If the rapturists get their fingers on the nuclear trigger and decide they're tired of waiting for Jesus, it could happen even faster. There isn't going to be a safe place to stand and watch the fire.

The talk of armed rebellion at this point is not just counterproductive, it's really nuts. It would be about as effective as Bush's glorious war on terra at making us safer. Nothing would aid the fascists more, close off all avenues of hope and give them an excuse to bring on the camps and purges faster than a bunch of crazed 'libruls' running around shooting people and blowing things up. It would prove all the right wing's hysteria and rhetoric true in the same way that Bush's war of religions/civilizations is proving all of Bin Laden's propaganda true, and ensure that no voices of reason could ever be heard. It would be adopting the tactics of the enemy and becoming them in the same way we are criticizing the right for turning us into a terrorist state. We would be much better off just leaving the "V for Vendetta" fanstasies out of the discussion.
Dread Scot | 09.29.06 - 11:28 pm | #

goo goo goo dillywhacks. goo goo goo.
liquified viscera

Thanks for elearing that up, liquified viscera. I understand now where you're coming from.
CreepingTruth | 09.29.06 - 11:30 pm | #

I'm not sure what the point is in leaving the country, unless you are just trying to buy time. If the U.S. goes 4'th reich we won't be alone, and the resulting conflagration will be like nothing before imaginable.

It's already happening, Dread Scott. I get news clips from my Canadian friends every day reporting on Condi's "date" with FM Peter MacKay, Harpo's refusal to apologize to Arar for his rendition, and lame coverage of protests of the neocon-inspired war in Lebanon. We're on one big blue marble and it's turning red, in the red-state sense, at least the part that speaks English.
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 11:37 pm | #

That was me. Excuse my anonymiity.
CreepingTruth | 09.29.06 - 11:38 pm | #

LV - Dude, you've got some smart and tough ideas there. Maybe you should join one of those survivalist groups. You could even start your own and call it "Egomainiacs With Inferiority Complexes" or something else similarly descriptive of yourself.

You are fire dude. Rock on.
daleyrocks

But LV is really in pain. It's not egomania imo. I only wish [s]he knew how much we all feel it. This is how the left splits. It starts with "NO ONE feels MY pain." And it descends into "goo goo goo."

Maybe I should have referred LV to "The Life of Brian."
Anonymous | 09.29.06 - 11:51 pm | #

Damn my defaults. Me again!
CreepingTruth | 09.29.06 - 11:54 pm | #

Creeping Truth of Anonymity --

Thanks for elearing that up, liquified viscera. I understand now where you're coming from.

No, actually, you haven't a fucking clue if you would take seriously a comment made in mockery of one of the forum's resident trolls -- "daleyrocks".

Jeezus, your false pedantry is almost as annoying as the trolling of the Troggo Triumvirate -- daleyrocks, bart/Bart, and shooter242. Perhaps you're angling for the 4th spot in their roster?
liquified viscera | 09.29.06 - 11:59 pm | #

Anon. - LV is always in pain. It is a perpetual condition with him and he feels an obligation to pass that pain on to others in the form of his comments. He doesn't seem to understand that others may have enough of their own pain and have no interest in sharing his often twisted, warped, unreality-based pain. That is where his ego and selfishness come shining through. IMO.
daleyrocks | 09.29.06 - 11:59 pm | #

Such grand pleasure, seeing "daleyrocks" and "Creeping Truth" sucking each other into orgasmic bliss. Such grand pleasure. Reminds me of the gay sex club scene in "Unspeakable."
liquified viscera | 09.30.06 - 12:00 am | #

dillywhacks, all you have is "IMO" because you haven't any facts at your command. You just proved that with your sad projection of your own problems, projecting them onto me as if I am part of your silly NAMBLA circle of love.
liquified viscera | 09.30.06 - 12:01 am | #

Daleyrocks,

Mebbe, and I got his last comment. If I'm a troll, may lightning strike me dead and .... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

Just showing I've been around the block.
CreepingTruth | 09.30.06 - 12:03 am | #

I'd say the Constitutional crisis during the Nixon adminstration is the closest parallel to what we're seeing now in America's recent history. I find the situation now scarier because unlike Nixon, I don't think Bush would step down if faced with impeachment. A lot of what is going on now in fact is people like Cheney and Rumsfeld replaying the Nixon Administration, gathering all the executive power that they felt they should have had then (what was Nixon's classic quote? "It's not wrong if the President does it." Something like that.

I do believe we are at a turning point, and I don't know if it's fixable. But honestly, we'd better hope so. The world is so interconnected at this point that some kind of serious crisis here doesn't just affect the US - it's a global problem.

And yes, anybody who is seriously talking about armed rebellion is out of their minds, a troll or some kind of agent provocateur. That's how the right wing militias talk, for gods sake. Those are the methods practiced by abortion clinic bombers and Timothy McVeigh. It's also in no way a practical method to achieve positive social change. Not at this point in our history.

Living off the grid is a reasonable choice, IMO, and one I wouldn't begrudge anyone.

The problems go so far beyond the ability of our electoral process to fix, but I cast my vote, as it were, with those who say that the first thing we must do is stop the Republicans in power from doing any further damage. No matter how craven or ineffective the Democrats are, no matter how much they are bound up with the system of corporate money, this is a Republican war, it's the Republicans who have legalized torture and spat on the Constitution, who have done their best to dismantle social security, environmental protection, workers rights, you name it. They have got to be stopped, and the only way we have to do that is through the electoral process.

It's only a first step, and I'm with those who think that we need a massive shift in our priorities on just about every level. I don't know whether we'll be able to make the shift in time, and by that I mean in time to avoid an economic collapse (and potentially an environmental one as well). But what else is there to do but try?
Other Lisa | Homepage | 09.30.06 - 12:17 am | #

CT - He's a keeper isn't he. The left can have him. He's real Fred Phelps material.
daleyrocks | 09.30.06 - 12:18 am | #

LV - You seem to have an obsession with making references to dicks and cock sucking, onanism, etc. Do you have issues related to your sexuality? Have you sought professional help? Don't be embarrassed, we're here to help you.
daleyrocks | 09.30.06 - 12:25 am | #

Other Lisa,

I agree on Nixon. Closest parallel. But what did we resolve in 1974? They just went into hibernation like cicadas ... well, maybe for 20 years. (I'd date their resurgence to 1994.) Nothing was settled, or they'd be laying low in Costa Rica (or wherever people like this go to for shelter).

Thing about Lincoln is this: he got people to see that the Constitution put slavery on a course of ultimate extinction. He made that case. Yes, he was closer to the framers than we are, but our task is the same as his, because we're facing the "Constitution in exile" Federalist Society. They're not going away. The courts are full of them.

Just for comparison look at a few paragraphs of his 1860 Cooper Union Address (at http://showcase.netins.net/web/c...hes/cooper.htm) and compare it to Kerry's 2004 speech from the same podium. It's to die for.

The man knew how to use religion against the religionists. He had the true take on free labor -- capitalism was a poor second to his ideal. He supported strikers and saw the corporate threat coming up even as the war was ending. I could go on, but he just plain thought big! We need the likes of him and don't have it.
CreepingTruth | 09.30.06 - 12:44 am | #

CT, I agree completely with your cicada analogy. They didn't get what they wanted then, they bided their time, and they'll do absolutely anything to get their "unitary executive" now. Plus, I'll give Nixon some credit — his idea of social programs was nowhere close to the reactionary dismantling that these guys want to bring about.

Tried to read the Lincoln speech - looks like a dead link. But yeah. Visionary leadership would be helpful right about now...
Other Lisa | Homepage | 09.30.06 - 12:49 am | #

Steyn et al visited and approved the 2006 version of Theriesenstadt.

Next time they will have the inmate orchestra perform for Hewitt.
Upper West | 09.30.06 - 12:52 am | #

CT - He's a keeper isn't he. The left can have him. He's real Fred Phelps material.
daleyrocks

I googled Phelps. Says he's big on Isaiah 58. I know the chapter. I read from it at my mother's gravesite. She died around this time of year, midway in the Ten Days, just before the big fast day.

It reads like this:

This is the fast I choose: To undo the fetters of wickedness, to untie the bands of perverseness, and to let the oppressed out free, and eliminate all perverseness. To share your bread with the hungry, and bring home the moaning poor; when you see a naked one, clothe him, and don't hide from your flesh. Then your light will break forth as the dawn, and your healing will quickly sprout, and your righteousness will go before you; the glory of the Lord will gather you in.

I'd wager Phelps took Isaiah out of context. The mock observance, the poor, the healing, the glory. The whole thing. My relatives thought I was reading from the New Testament.
CreepingTruth | 09.30.06 - 1:09 am | #

It would be adopting the tactics of the enemy and becoming them in the same way we are criticizing the right for turning us into a terrorist state. We would be much better off just leaving the "V for Vendetta" fanstasies out of the discussion.
Dread Scot | 09.29.06 - 11:28 pm |

I call bullshit. Or rather Chickenshit, because that is all you are. Conflating good people that have had enough and are willing to fight for what they believe in, even though they would prefer not to and have been avoiding it in the hopes that you "reasonable" people would be able to come up with something is beyond the pale. You have the audacity to compare truly patriotic Americans that are prepared to fight and die for our founding principles to tyrannical fascists that are only willing to send the poor to fight for greed and evil??

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

Voices of reason my ass. Cowards I say!

.
adnoto | Homepage | 09.30.06 - 1:21 am | #

Daleyrocks:

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but let me make one thing clear. What motivates me is not fear, but anger. I am not in the least bit worried that I will be spirited off to Guantanamo, detained indefinitely or tortured. But I am enraged that the government that purports to represent me is willing to countenance such things.

So I am inclined to agree that people who raise such things as realistic possibilities are fearmongering. But to understand why some might stoop to such tactics, just ask the Fearmongerer in Chief.
Enlightened Layperson | Homepage | 09.30.06 - 1:24 am | #

Again, Adnoto, what are you proposing? Your idea of fighting for what's right may be different than mine, or it may no bet.

Mine does not include literally blowing up Parliament.

Does yours?
Other Lisa | Homepage | 09.30.06 - 1:33 am | #

But I'm very curious what you mean when you talk about lethal force. How would you apply it? How would you practically accomplish your goals - and what are those goals?

I have posed this question elsewhere and I am completely serious about it - what is the appropriate action? It's something I've been wrestling with a great deal.

If you are asking about "battle plans" or how it would look (the use of "lethal force" in a rebellion) you shouldn't expect an answer to this query Lisa. Not in an open forum such as this. Those who know or have a good idea of the tactical approaches are certainly not going to answer up and those that haven't the first clue will feed you with bullshit.

.
adnoto | Homepage | 09.30.06 - 1:36 am | #

Mine does not include literally blowing up Parliament.

Does yours?
Other Lisa | Homepage | 09.30.06 - 1:33 am |

Not initially. No. I would personally begin the "revolution" with MLK or Gandhi style civil disobedience but if/when that fails - well...

Again Lisa you are asking questions that you should not expect answers to. Some of them anyway.

.
adnoto | Homepage | 09.30.06 - 1:43 am | #

Your response certainly tells me something.

I'm not going to argue with you. I'd only say that from what little I know of history, I think you are dangerously wrong about what can be accomplished by violence in this place, in this time. If that in fact is your meaning.
Other Lisa | Homepage | 09.30.06 - 1:44 am | #

Dread Scott/adnoto.

Can I weigh in? (Well I will anyway.)

I saw V more than once, not for the violence but for the script. It's a superb film, but it's a comic book, and like any other dystopia it's an abstraction. Think of Rousseau's or Hobbes's state of nature. Now put it in the future instead of the past.

That's what all these people do. The lesson I take from V, and from Jack London, George Orwell, Sinclair Lewis, Margaret Atwood, etc., is not to censor such thoughts -- goodness knows that's not how the right got to where it is -- but not to take them literally either.

I work backwards from them and ask the now question: If we con't fix things now, will our children be reduced to praying for a V?

That would be awful, so let's stop it here, while we can still fight it out in words. We can be just as bold but do it in words. There's a giant will s out there waiting to coalesce, and we still have time to bring it to its senses. But s not as much as we'd like to think. That such movies can stir us is living proof of that.

But, boy, do what V did and the iron heel -- Ferragamo, probably -- will come out and crush you.
CreepingTruth | 09.30.06 - 1:48 am | #

Translation: At least put off the Fifth of November until the seventh is behind us.
CreepingTruth | 09.30.06 - 1:49 am | #

The Republicans have already blown up Parliament, and themselves with it. How can you fight terrorism, run the government and catch OBL when you are so busy buggering little boys and covering it up for over two years. Drudge's little siren must have broken by now. You can follow this breaking story at TPM:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

The word for today is Schadenfreude.

At least Clinton and Lewinsky were consenting adults.
Black September | 09.30.06 - 1:55 am | #

Tried to read the Lincoln speech - looks like a dead link. But yeah. Visionary leadership would be helpful right about now...
Other Lisa

Visionary? Bush was a "visionary". I'll take regular "cut and run" Democrats right about now. Cut the bullshit and just Run the government.
Black September | 09.30.06 - 1:59 am | #

If only stupidity could be harnessed as an energy source, we'd have an inexhaustible supply of it here and could tell the Saudis, Iraqis and Venezeulan governments to piss off. George Bush's idiocy alone could power a city the size of Terra Haute for a year.
LL | 09.30.06 - 2:02 am | #

No, really. This Foley thing will consume the whole GOP before the election. It's just the tip of the iceberg. They, the GOP leadership, knew about it two years ago, hid it from the Democrats, and covered it up. Democrats didn't dig up this dirt. Conservatives with conscience did. There are people who realize that this GOP controlled government is dysfunctional and they have torpedoed it before the election. They want it out of power. They blew up parliament.
Black September | 09.30.06 - 2:04 am | #

I think they waited to see if anyone (GOP) would do the right thing yesterday. They didn't. Adios Muchachos!
Black September | 09.30.06 - 2:05 am | #

More here:

http://americablog.blogspot.com/
Black September | 09.30.06 - 2:12 am | #

Here's a thought:

How about a letter-writing campaign to the Catholic bishop of Orange, demanding that Hewitt be denied Communion? That would hit the sanctimonious prig where he lives.
burnspbesq | 09.30.06 - 2:20 am | #

I think you are dangerously wrong about what can be accomplished by violence in this place, in this time. If that in fact is your meaning.
Other Lisa | Homepage | 09.30.06 - 1:44 am |

*sigh*

And as for this:

Dread Scott/adnoto.

Can I weigh in? (Well I will anyway.)

I saw V more than once, not for the violence but for the script. It's a superb film, but it's a comic book and like any other dystopia it's an abstraction.

This is what America and Americans have become... reduced to relating truly historic and very real dangers to the fantasy of Hollywood. I quote Jefferson and you and "Dread Scott" quote a movie. I am at a loss.

But, boy, do what V did and the iron heel -- Ferragamo, probably -- will come out and crush you.
CreepingTruth | 09.30.06 - 1:48 am |

Yeah and here I was planning to take them on all by myself. You are correct about one thing though... after "we" (whoever still cares and doesn't have a movie premiere to attend or a blog to preach at) try the civil disobedience route and if that fails and "we" are faced with no other alternative - you are correct, if it comes to that we will be crushed. "We" will be crushed because the vast "you" will be at a movie.

Semper Fi.

.
adnoto | Homepage | 09.30.06 - 2:32 am | #

rigel,

Sorry, mon ami, you've missed it by one word.

The correct formulation is:

It's wrong AND it doesn't work.

If you are a Christian, and are true to your faith, you simply cannot think about torture in utilitarian terms. There are lines that cannot be crossed, at any time, under any circumstances. That's one of them.

Matthew 25:31-46 is dead on point.

Perhaps someone can supply an appropriate reference to the Talmud.
burnspbesq | 09.30.06 - 2:38 am | #

One other lesson in the movie, then I'll call it quits: eggy in a basket. We called them gold mines. Mmm good.
CreepingTruth | 09.30.06 - 2:42 am | #

I would personally begin the "revolution" with MLK or Gandhi style civil disobedience but if/when that fails..

It won't fail if done right. It depends on the intelligence, eloquence, passion and integrity of the person who steps forth to lead such a movement. Without "V" there would be no "vendetta".

Not having a Gandhi or an MLK is a problem. Should the right leader emerge and lead as it picks up steam, it will work. Organizing groups have baggage which delays and derails things. There are individuals who do not.

Protests using violence are like third generation warfare: present techonolgy has made such a possibility obsolete. Massive non-violent civil protests, with no or an aboslute minimum of disobedience, are the only possible solution. They are the idea whose time has come now.
anon | 09.30.06 - 2:46 am | #

adnoto,

You have to try the democratic process first. It is cumbersome and slow, but as welcome as a military coup would seem to be now, it is not the way to go and to try to wrest control of the government without the support of the military is suicidal madness. Suicidal madness may be required someday, but that day is not yet here.
Black September | 09.30.06 - 2:52 am | #

Rep. Foley R-Florida has resigned his seat that was a lock. There is little chance of a Rethuglican getting elected to that seat. Hastert did not look too happy when asked about Foley. As Leno said, the Catholic church has offered to relocate Foley...

That is one down and 14 to go without a shot being fired.
Republicans are what they are. When the light shines, they scurry under the rocks.

Do not despair. Fight the good fight and hold those that would trash the constitution accountable.
nuf said | 09.30.06 - 3:25 am | #

I travelled as far as the coment ...s...made and then traveled 10,000 miles away to remember something that makes me agree with your comment at the start...what ...s...said at 11: 16 yesterday.

One day after I was 'drafted' and eyewitnessed war and the manifestation of ugly aspects of human nature, I realized this:

...to our infantry 'outfit' in the 'bush,' we called the jungle, the 'bush.' a wealthier class "pretty-boy" was assigned to the battle-field for a brief "Tour" from the echelon-elite area.

The rear-area was relatively protected, greenzone. REMF's.

In 'fear' of experiencing a war-reality, but just doing his hired SID duty to spy on soldier-dissident combatants, soldiers' simply expressing a bit of sensible mutinous ant-war sentiment...the nicnamed "pretty-boy" was the "bug" who was out to deviously greet 'us.'

So, even knowing full-aware that we assembled "grunts" being used in jungles for cannon-fodder, AND ....sent...as slaugtered disposables, in our prime youth, they sent the spooks out tooo... too...

In the opinion of the monarch courtiers...then...the kings court wanted to hear what anti-war grunt/peasants were saying. We told the truth.

MY point" We had to gently raise "pretty-boy's" face close to our eyes on every occasion into ours and try to Help 'um from 'flipping out,' or deconstruct from panicking in combat! Casualties...piss-poor jokes.

Each time it got tense, metal was doing its motal killing thing, "pretty-boy" just went into a baby-trance, went fetal, and even combed his hair, tidy-up-ed his eyebrows. No kidding.
It proved to drafted "grunts" looking over each-others shoulders, the privedged-few, the well-to-do, chose to be mere worthless.

Snitches are protective of nothing. They ruin. Someone could get 'kilt' around the disgusting ones loyal to a murderous fake king. I use the "N" word. "N" it. End it. "N" it now.

Now, now, now...thanks...got that off my chest, and Now i'll read respectable 'voices' from comments about these dark Modern Times.
brotherbruz | 09.30.06 - 6:32 am | #

Like I said, since I'm not clear about what you (Adnoto) are advocating, I'm not entirely clear how great our disagreement is. I'm all for non-violent resistance. I'm just not in general for blowing shit up and hurting people. It goes with the not liking torture and the death penalty part of my belief system.

And, you know, people who post a lot on blogs aren't really in a great position to complain about people who post a lot on blogs.
Other Lisa

Other Lisa,

I know some very conservative warrior types. I mean "very conservative" and very much the kind of people who like to "blow shit up and kill people" people, because that is their job, in the military and such. There are more than a few of them who are mumbling such things at this time. You'd be surprised. It's not as uncommon as one might think if one listens to the Bush idiots on the blogosphere. Bush and his idiots are neither conservative nor competent but they will do anything to hang on to power. They won't. Eventually the people always get the power back.
Black September | 09.30.06 - 6:46 am | #

At 3:03Pm yesterday, some person named Anonymous mention NUOC MANH.

It is a wonderful fishsauce. It be nice if Fish-House Factories popped up here instead of prisons, cop-training workshops, and spare 'us' them Swat-Team outfits seen all over America. Even in the public parks...sheesh. pooey. stink?

Thailand has a real delicious anchovey extract kitchen mixture: it takes a few drops of squid-juice. small amounts...drip/drops... provides a balance of natural protein with only adding a delicate pinch of salt/sugar. Then, if mixed with nourishing vegetables and rice. Great. 'It' is, in my opinion for fine taste, the near perfect addition for truth-supplements and can allign 'us' as healthy human beings to withstand these Modern Times. Wonderful. NUOC MANH sauce. Buy it? I got some and will share it. i recommend it for a truth serum. It works.
brotherbruz | 09.30.06 - 8:18 am | #

Nuf said:
That is one down and 14 to go without a shot being fired.
Republicans are what they are. When the light shines, they scurry under the rocks.

Actually I think it reflects a healthy sense of shame about one's misdeeds, unlike say William Jefferson D-La, or Harry Reid keeping his Abramoff money.
Then there's Alcee Hastings D-Fla defrocked judge, or Cynthia McKinney D-Ga. narcissistic assaulter of police.
When one has no ethics, one has no shame. I believe that's the description of pathological behavior.
shooter242 | 09.30.06 - 8:32 am | #

Hey Shooter, along with your personal add 'Married man seeking younger woman for Other Relationship' do you have any looking for young boys?
Anonymous | 09.30.06 - 8:57 am | #

Actually I think it reflects a healthy sense of shame about one's misdeeds, unlike say William Jefferson D-La, or Harry Reid keeping his Abramoff money.
Then there's Alcee Hastings D-Fla defrocked judge, or Cynthia McKinney D-Ga. narcissistic assaulter of police.
When one has no ethics, one has no shame. I believe that's the description of pathological behavior.
shooter242 | 09.30.06 - 8:32 am | #

Foley resigned because his position got untenable and he could no longer be protected by his peers. As for applying ethics and morality or any other broadly kind adjective to a politician (regardless of Democrat or Republican label), plan for perpetual disappointment.

fuzzy dice | 09.30.06 - 9:00 am | #

If Shooter is indeed upset about Harry Reid's alleged relationshio with 'Abramoff money' he must be stricken to know that Abramoff had 400+ visits to the Whitehouse and that he worked hand in hand with Ken Mehlman, chairman of the RNC......

Come on Shooter, admit it. The Democrats dumped Jefferson from his leadership position and they also voted McKinney out of office....

Alcee Hastings was duly punished for his misdeeds...

Now how about some Republican comeuppance?

-GSD
GSD | 09.30.06 - 10:26 am | #

Shooter,

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes it's not.
Sigmund Freud | 09.30.06 - 10:28 am | #

brotherbruz, I just wanted to say how much your posts mean to me. Keep fighting the good fight, and sending those BBC transmissions to the Resistance; sometimes, that's all that can keep us alive.
Ames | 09.30.06 - 10:37 am | #

Other Lisa: For Lincoln's Cooper Union Address google "Lincoln Cooper Union Address". For the Powell memo, google "Powell memo".

For what I'm talking about, listen to Patrick Leahy on Friday 9/29's Democracy Now! He put the detainee bill in context, illustrated its real-world effect. Translated "habeas corpus" into 3 Anglo-Saxon monosyllables. In 22 minutes.

All good, but ask this: Why the post mortem? He knew Bush's aims well in advance. He and a few others could have launched a public debate by getting all this out.

It's not that people are too gullible. They no longer trust Bush. It's not that they're too dumb. Lincoln spoke to hayseeds who hung on his every word. His speeches were printed in full, including the cheers and heckling, showing give and take with the crowd. That's how public opinion's made.
CreepingTruth | 09.30.06 - 10:57 am | #

What strikes me once again, and not just when talking about Guantanamo, is the subtext of sexuality.
PW | Homepage | 09.30.06 - 10:59 am | #

If the object of the ongoing Republican assault on the Constitution still isn't clear to everyone, there's this quote from Newt Gingrich:

Supreme Court decisions that are "so clearly at variance with the national will" should be overridden by the other branches of government, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich says.

I've been watching them crab their way toward this for 40 years, but now that they believe themselves to be nearing their ultimate bliss, they're being much more open about what they want.

What amazes me is not so much their smugness, but their absolute inability to see beyond their own ideological headlights to the edge of the cliff that's waiting for them. (And for us too, unfortunately.)
William Timberman | 09.30.06 - 11:41 am | #

wow. Creeping Truth and "Other Lisa" are the voices of "lay down and let the PNAC goon squad rub your belly and hope they don't rub into it any poisons laced with DMSO for fast absorption and metabolism."

The Nixon era was close to this, historically? I would have to say that the "Other Lisa" is pretty danged clueless. Really fucking clueless. Watergate was nothing like this. Absolutely nothing. There was no attack on the Constitution, no Halliburton engagement in building impoundments for naysayers.

Yeah, let's all pick flowers and hope that when the PNAC goons come for us with their kevlar armor and tactical weaponry, we can just stuff the flowers into their gunbarrels.

You're right, "Other Lisa," violence solves nothing. Except the fact that with violence, the PNAC goons can make your or me disappear. And if that doesn't urge you to do something besides pick flowers, then perhaps you deserve to disappear into fertilizer.
liquified viscera | 09.30.06 - 12:27 pm | #

PW --

What strikes me once again, and not just when talking about Guantanamo, is the subtext of sexuality.

You noticed too, huh? When I make mocking repliese to the Troggo Troll Triumvirate, using sexual innuendo, they seem to think it's my closeted homosexual nature trying to squeeze its way out. In fact, it's an amplification of the mockery by relating to their heroes' not-very-well-hidden proclivities. But of course, the Troggo Troll Triumvirate doesn't get that point, it's well subtle and therefore quite over their heads.
liquified viscera | 09.30.06 - 12:29 pm | #

WT --

What amazes me is not so much their smugness, but their absolute inability to see beyond their own ideological headlights to the edge of the cliff that's waiting for them.

Call me naive, but I'm afraid I don't see how there's a cliff precipice in store for them. Could you elaborate on what you see as their fatal drop? As I see it, they take their loot and sequester themselves someplace that will protect them, some offshore island that they have well-stocked already, some place where they have been conducting business for generations. My step-family has access to such places. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about... don't you?
liquified viscera | 09.30.06 - 12:37 pm | #

It looks like Harold "Bart" DePalma is a real person, and not the collective efforts of several individuals on a rotation.

He's been in residence commenting at Jack Balkin's site. His prolixity is in negative correlation to his insight.
pseudonymous in nc | 09.30.06 - 12:50 pm | #

LV, seriously, have you studied the Nixon Administration? You're wrong in that there was no attempt to attack the Constitution. I'm thunderstruck that you would make that statement and accuse me of being ignorant. You really shouldn't be insulting me when you don't know the facts.

I did say that I thought the current situation was worse. But you have to remember that Rumsfeld and Cheney were big players during Nixon and a lot of what they are doing now is trying to get the power they were unsuccessful in gathering then.
Other Lisa | Homepage | 09.30.06 - 1:37 pm | #

Oh, and IIRC, there WERE Halliburton-like plans to deal with massive demonstrations during the Republican Convention. I'm very hazy on some of this because I was literally a kid at the time. But maybe some people who more engaged can fill you in.

One difference is that Nixon's social agenda was not nearly as onerous as Bush's.
Other Lisa | Homepage | 09.30.06 - 1:39 pm | #

Gleaned from today's Radio Canada International CyberJournal:

The U.S. state department says that when the U.S. deported a Canadian to Syria in 2002, it had a "reasonable expectation" that Maher Arar wouldn't be tortured there. The department says Syria gave assurances that Mr. Arar would be treated according to the standards of the Geneva Conventions and wouldn't be tortured or otherwise mistreated.

Would that be the quaint standards or the vague standards?
Mikey | 09.30.06 - 1:46 pm | #

LV - Feeble attempt at excusing your behavior, Gump. You are anything but subtle. Stupid is as stupid does.
daleyrocks | 09.30.06 - 1:58 pm | #

Hey DirtySocks, are you a fellow protector of Republican Pederasts?

You can join Bart & Shooter.
Anonymous | 09.30.06 - 2:16 pm | #

LV: Could you elaborate on what you see as their fatal drop?

If I remember correctly from previous threads, the difference between us here is our respective estimates of their competence.

Just to refresh your memory on my position, I rate them just slightly more able than the Politburo when it comes to managing a complex economy, and slightly less able when it comes to managing foreign policy in an era of shifting allegiances.

To me, evidence of their fecklessness is everywhere you look; your mileage may vary.
William Timberman | 09.30.06 - 4:32 pm | #

Every time anonymous troll comes back to bleat here, he/she is projecting just how worried they remain about the coming elections and the certitude of their own beliefs.

Oh, and an angel gets its wings.
rickygee | 09.30.06 - 5:46 pm | #

could someone (gg ??) clarify something for me

i read/heard somewhere that legislators that retroactivly make legal, conduct that is in violation of the geneva conventions, can themselves be charged with violations

specifically, taking burke's quote All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing., that in itself is bad enough, but to absolve a person (or persons) of actions that seem to fly in the face of geneva, is to take that to a new, level

am i wrong on that ??
tofubo | 10.01.06 - 3:30 pm | #

Ex-Rep. Foley Checks in to Alcohol Rehab
By LARA JAKES JORDAN , 10.02.2006, 09:16 AM

Former Rep. Mark Foley, under FBI investigation for e-mail exchanges with teenage congressional pages, has checked himself into a rehabilitation facility for alcoholism treatment and accepts responsibility for his actions, his attorney acknowledged Monday.

The attorney, David Roth, would not identify the facility, but told an Associated Press reporter in Florida that Foley had checked into a facility over the weekend.

"I strongly believe that I am an alcoholic and have accepted the need for immediate treatment for alcoholism and other behavioral problems," Foley said in a statement, Roth confirmed to the AP.

http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds.../ ap3059303.html

What a pathetic excuse. And so hackney and cliche. It's like predicting the sun will come up in the east.
Moses | 10.02.06 - 10:59 am | #

Why doesn't anyone call Shooter on his lies?

Ried didn't take Abramoff money. Ambramoff did not, even one time, give a democrat money. It's documented here:

http://www.opensecrets.org/indiv...le3=2002& Page=1

Nor did Abramoff recommend stearing money to Democrats. He only recommended stearing money to Republicans.

Total indian contributions, during Ambramoff's time, to Republicans shot out the roof. Total indian contributions, in the same time period, declined or remained stagnant to democrats.

The true story on this issue is the indian tribe gave money to Ried. Like they did BEFORE Abramoff represented them. Like they did AFTER Abramoff no longer represented them. The INDIANS did not change their behavior with respect to Ried.

They DID give more money to the corrupt Republicans because of the corrupt Abramoff.

That Shooter is still whacking off to this crap, and spewing his idiotic spunk on this website, is amazing. It's one of the most completely researched and debunked neocon talking points out there.
Moses | 10.02.06 - 11:12 am | #

How dare Steyn go down there and report what he saw!!!

Everyone knows that the facts of the situation should be determined by a political theory.
MnZ | 10.03.06 - 11:07 am | #

Oops, the cult better come up with a new story now.
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/arch...ives/ 001701.php
afterthought | 10.04.06 - 4:35 pm | #

Unbereaveable!
John Gillmartin | Homepage | 11.15.06 - 1:53 pm | #

Does George W. Bush’s murder of Margie Schoedinger constitute a hate crime?

Submitted by Andrew Yu-Jen Wang
B.S., Summa Cum Laude, 1996
Messiah College, Grantham, PA
Lower Merion High School, Ardmore, PA, 1993

“GEORGE W. BUSH IS THE WORST PRESIDENT IN U.S. HISTORY” BLOG OF ANDREW YU-JEN WANG
http://andrewyu-jenwang.blogspot.com/
Andrew Yu-Jen Wang | Homepage | 12.25.08 - 10:30 pm | #

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