From Glenn's original post:

It is impossible to defend that behavior, let alone engage in it, and claim with any legitimacy that one believes in the principles that have defined and guided this country since its founding.

Yet we know there will be those who attempt to do so now.

Personally, I look forward to hearing them, if only so I can be reminded of just how depraved they are.
yankeependragon | 10.10.06 - 4:57 pm | #

One wonders how many other people have since been imprisoned and tortured based upon Padilla's testimony, while being tortured. Any policy like this is bound to spiral out of control, and in so doing accomplish nothing substantive for our national security. For those of you who think that this cannot ever happen to you or those that you love, are you willing to wager that on a game of "Six degrees of Kevin Bacon" played amongst all the people you know or have met, based upon torture testimony? We're all "dirty bombers" now. God help us all.
Lee | 10.10.06 - 4:58 pm | #

This is not the country I once knew.
Ryan | 10.10.06 - 4:58 pm | #

The case of Jose Padilla is no longer a sick aberration, but is instead a symbol of the kind of Government was have chosen to have

'we' have chosen?

Thanks Glenn. This is deeply frightening, though predictable.
Some days are rocks | 10.10.06 - 4:59 pm | #

I show things like this to my Republican leaning friends and I get back things like "so you want to be forced to become a Muslim?" and "we haven't had an attack here since 9/11."

And they're serious.

I think the rank and file "loyal Republicans" are a bigger threat than Bush is.
Alan | 10.10.06 - 4:59 pm | #

Absolutely sickening this post, although insightful and powerful, as ever. (And you are prolific today, wow.)

Sadly, even if the Democrats retake congress, I don't see the Constitution being restored before 2008.

I can only hope the truth will out and the plain ideals laid out in the Constitution, the bill of rights and in American legal tradition for more than 200 years will be restored to primacy.

And I pray that the radical and brutal authoritarianism currently being sold as a national security policy will be discredited for generations to come.
Bullsmith | 10.10.06 - 4:59 pm | #

Another point,

My wife's catholic and I went to a mass for her late father this past Sunday. As I looked at the stations of the cross, so graphically depicting the way Christ was tortured to death, I was once again struck by how absolutely dishonest and blasphemous it is for people to proclaim their deep Christian faith one moment, and defend their moral right to torture the next.

I'm not religious, but if I was, I would be pretty damn sure Christ is weeping.
Bullsmith | 10.10.06 - 5:02 pm | #

The case of Jose Padilla is no longer a sick aberration, but is instead a symbol of the kind of Government was have chosen to have.

The key phrase here being "we have chosen to have" That's the most discoraging part of this whole process is that through a combination of inattention, insensitivity and crass manipulation by a media that is inexplicably afraid to call out the administration as a pack of liars, the American paople have aquiessed to gross miscarriages of justice.
Paul Dirks | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 5:03 pm | #

As I looked at the stations of the cross, so graphically depicting the way Christ was tortured to death, I was once again struck by how absolutely dishonest and blasphemous it is for people to proclaim their deep Christian faith one moment, and defend their moral right to torture the next.

yeah, try telling that to that twat Sandy Rios who was on Bill Maher a few weeks back. A very devout rapture monkey who nonetheless would characterize the torture of Padilla as merely 'coercion' and 'discomfort'.

Sometimes I truly believe religion is a mental disease.

I can't wait to hear what John Yoo has to say about Padilla's case.
r€nato | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 5:04 pm | #

As I've mentioned before, the monarchists got what they wanted: torture and indefinite detention.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Ok, remembering that I and some unidentified others (sorry to list myself first, unidentified others; I realize that's poor sentence structure) are not important, I'll step aside now so daleyrocks can call me dishonest (unless I'm so unimportant that it's not even worth accusing me of dishonesty).

Rob
Desert Son | 10.10.06 - 5:06 pm | #

What has bothered me--beyond the (unfortunately not so obvious) revulsion at the way Mr. Padilla was treated--has been the instiutional impotence demonstrated by the federal courts. If the courts are afraid to act in this situation--where there are very clear violations of the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment even without getting into the issue of torture (an American citizen cannot be held by the government absent a grand jury indictment; the very bedrock of our Bill of Rights)--I wonder what outrage would lead them to exercise their power in declaring such actions unconstitutional. I was somewhat heartened by the Fourth Circuit's outrage, but I thought the U.S. Supreme Court really needed to stop fucking around with the technicalities and tell the executive to stop.
nate | 10.10.06 - 5:06 pm | #

...with liberty
and justice
for all.
Nezua Limón Xolagrafik-Jonez | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 5:13 pm | #

In the first sentence of this article Glenn tells a lie Jose Padilla is NOT a citezen of the United States any body can find that out with no difficulty's at all. It border's on treason to suggest that President George W. Bush is breaking the law with regard to citezens of the United States because CLEARLY he is NOT!!!
It borders on treasonous to suggest that our commander in Chief is not following the letter of the law to the letter of the law when every body KNOWS he is even liberals know that but you won't tell the truth because your so blinded by bush hatred that you'll say any thing you have to to hold on to your power like spewing lies about our Speaker of the House Dennis Hastwert who NEVER EVEN KNEW about foley's email's ir any thing else he was doing but the source was a democrat so it is CLEAR that the democrat party in congerss knew about this long prior to when the Republican's found out but NO BODY is sreaming for the DEMOCRAT'S to tell what they knew and when did they know it and it's just like this padilla thingh that you'll say any thing you want to to hold on to your power it's disgusting and you should all be ashamed of yourself.
The Major | 10.10.06 - 5:15 pm | #

The Major is entirely fact free.
Bullsmith | 10.10.06 - 5:17 pm | #

Hey, the Major's back, complete with misspellings! :)

Hadn't seen the Major around in a while . . . .

Rob
Desert Son | 10.10.06 - 5:24 pm | #

Padilla's treatment is utterly sickening. Even more sickening is the fact that Congress voted to authorize the continuation of these practices. More sickening still is the fact that many Democrats, including both the Senators from my state (NJ) voted in favor of this bill. There are times when I feel so sickened and depressed by this that I have to just tune it all out for awhile. I can't believe I'm living in a country that endorses these utterly despicable practices.

If the religious wingnuts are correct that Armegeddon and the end of the earth is nigh, perhaps we all deserve it.
walldon | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 5:25 pm | #

Deep breath. Ignore insane troll.
Okay, I'm better now.
Nice post Glenn.
It is important for us to remember how fundamentally wrong the Government's behavior is here.
No gray at all, but a clear violation of exactly what the constitution was designed to avoid. Sad times indeed.
afterthought | 10.10.06 - 5:29 pm | #

Good post, Glenn, as usual. We always hear Republicans accuse liberals of hating American and being part of the "blame America first crowd," but events like the Padilla case really underscore the hypocricy of that particular talking point. As I put in a post the other day:

From almost the moment the dust from 9/11 settled, we have been engaged in a battle in this country between those who want desperately to preserve what America stands for and what makes it great--i.e., our rights and freedoms and the rule of law--and those who believe our obsessive respect for such principles has made us weak and vulnerable. In a very real sense, the people who blamed America first were people like Dick Cheney, David Addington, and John Yoo. These men looked around on 9/12 and saw a country they didn't like. They blamed what had happened on "quaint" laws, treaties, and constitutional understandings that purported to prohibit the government from detaining people without charges, wiretapping people without oversight, and torturing suspects in our custody (among other things). They saw the need to fundamentally change what America was, to put aside centuries-old understandings and principles in the name of increased security.
A.L. | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 5:31 pm | #

You get what you pay for. We have paid billions to have the military industrial congressional complex take over our lives.

Just close your eyes and float down stream?

Hell, no! Get out there and build alternatives to the corporatocracy. Public financing of elections. Go down fighting.
Linda J. | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 5:32 pm | #

This is what really makes me sick. The sensations imagined while reading that account are even worse than the Abu Ghraib photos. It reminds me of my experience reading Elie Wiesel's "Night."

This is our legacy. I want my children to know I fought back. Write your newspapers until they're forced to print it!
Colin Lee | 10.10.06 - 5:36 pm | #

Yo troll, engage brain, check facts. Not hard. Padilla was born in Brooklyn. He might be a Mets fan, but thats still not a crime. Yet...
Some days are rocks | 10.10.06 - 5:38 pm | #

OT:Kolbe looks like toast.
JAFO | 10.10.06 - 5:44 pm | #

"The Major" is p a r o d y not real.
anonymous | 10.10.06 - 5:45 pm | #

Yo troll, engage brain, check facts. Not hard. Padilla was born in Brooklyn. He might be a Mets fan, but thats still not a crime. Yet...
Some days are rocks

The Major bags another one.


Shhhh... He's a brilliant satirist.
JAFO | 10.10.06 - 5:46 pm | #

This really is chilling, it's revolting and I don't understand how it can be happening or what the people doing it hope to gain by torturing people for years without reason.

Also, A.L., that was an excellent post at your blog on the true "Blame America First" crowd. I'm glad that I became aware of your writing through your guest spots here.

Jeff
Jeff Coleman | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 5:48 pm | #

It was illegal to torture Mr. Padilla but now it is not.

Now, anyone of us may be tortured legally. I sends shivers up my spine. My eyes used to get moist every time I read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Now I truely weep as their significance is rapidly being eroded. When will America wake up to this insanity?
Paul Holzapfel | 10.10.06 - 5:49 pm | #

Sorry for the OT again. This may be worth it.

A major local paper....Some good reporting from The Tennessean today on what appears to be some voter registration fraud, possibly tied to the Republican National Committee.
JAFO | 10.10.06 - 5:51 pm | #

Glenn,

Thanks again for all you do, from the heart. It is so discouraging that our MSM have given up all pretense of journalism. I just can't thank you enough for giving a platform to these issues.

You are doing a wonderful public service - and i am so very appreciative.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
dddddddddddddddddd | 10.10.06 - 5:51 pm | #

Paul Holzapfel,

"When will America wake up to this insanity?"

When it reaches them.

For some residents of this land, this kind of thing probably isn't much of a suprise. Ask around an American Indian reservation, or ask folks who survived the Tuskegee Experiments.

The remaining people of the United States will wake up when it lands in their front yard.

Rob
Desert Son | 10.10.06 - 6:00 pm | #

Kolbe announced his retirement a year ago, so he was already toast, maybe now he's burnt toast.

To the credit of Kolbe, he has refused to endorse Randy Graf, the Republican candidate for Kolbe's seat.

Graf is a member of the "Minutemen" militia. John McCain endorsed Graf yesterday.
anonymous | 10.10.06 - 6:01 pm | #

Bullsmith,

A committed Catholic, I can assure you that at a level of the very deepest ontology, you are right to discern Jesus Christ underneath the events and grounding the suffering that Jose Padilla experienced as a consequence of his abuse by our government. The same is true of the unjust suffering of any human being at any time in the history of the world. In this way God bears away, surpasses and transforms the sin even of the guiltiest of us, most obviously in this case that of George Bush, who is a self-confessed "christian". I don't consider it a coincidence that a truth of this kind might just dawn on you. The mystery of God can assert itself even in as unlikely a place as this web site. Very best to you.

John Lowell
john lowell | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 6:02 pm | #

Sorry, been kinda out of touch. Can somebody bring me up to date.

I know that congress passed the 2006 Military Commissions thing, but I never heard about Bush signing it.

Did he sign it? And if so, was a signing statement attached?
jello5929 | 10.10.06 - 6:02 pm | #

After I read this story, I actually felt physically sick to my stomach. I've read history books about what other regimes have done to their innocent victims. And a lot of the same actiosn are evident in the treatment of Jose Padilla.

The country I was born in, the only country I have ever lived in, has become as dangerous as any rogue nation in history. We have put a Pol Pot, a Pinochet into office. God help us all.
Kestral | 10.10.06 - 6:02 pm | #

Keith Olberman is doing a special show tonight on the Murder of Habeas Corpus. Make sure you watch it. Also PBS Frontline has a documentary tonight on how America has dealt with the threat of domestic terrorism, called the Enemy Within.
A poster said we need to write letters to our local papers. I agree completely. I haven't had much luck in getting mine printed though. I live in Greeley, CO and our local paper has refused to run both of my letters. I wrote one on warrantless wiretapping and another on the detainee bill. I guess they don't want the truth to get out. Also the Rocky Mtn News called and verified I wrote a letter but never printed it. I would urge those not to give up but don't be surprised if it doens't get published.
Conservative slayer | 10.10.06 - 6:04 pm | #

THE TICK: You don't have to be a genius to know that evil is bad. And good isn't.
JAFO | 10.10.06 - 6:07 pm | #

"Sadly, even if the Democrats retake congress, I don't see the Constitution being restored before 2008."

Do you really expect the Constitution to be restored at all?
Don't think once the Dems have a majority they will rush to throw away all the power that Li'l Butch handily gained for their use. After all, the next President might be a Democrat. Moreover, the Dems who voted for the egregious usurpation of power by Li'l Butch and his criminal minions, (or is that Big DICK and HIS crimial minions and one dimwit puppet?), will not likely be so quick to turn against their previous votes, if for no other reason than that would highlight those previous votes as been collusion with the crimes of this administration.

The only way to restore the Constitution is if the PEOPLE rise up in fury and sweep aside the collaborationists of this Congress and put people in office who will truly represent the people's interest and the Constitution.
Robert1014 | 10.10.06 - 6:09 pm | #

I'm going to post the text from the motion on my blog. It speaks for itself and cannot be seen by too many eyes. I'd encourage everyone to do it, too.

Glenn, you've been describing this situation for a long time and I've always been moved by your words, but the actual legal document you post today is by far the most powerful statement in this case yet. Padilla is an American. Take away his last name and his religion and I think Americans would get that--not that that is be legally necessary. The fear that has been brought to bear on this country makes it difficult to identify Padilla as human, let alone American.
Austin | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 6:13 pm | #

Do you really expect the Constitution to be restored at all?

Yes. I do, and anyone who wants my vote will see to it if they want to keep getting it.
JAFO | 10.10.06 - 6:14 pm | #

To the credit of Kolbe, he has refused to endorse Randy Graf, the Republican candidate for Kolbe's seat.

Graf is a member of the "Minutemen" militia. John McCain endorsed Graf yesterday.
anonymous

Poor McCain. A day late and a dollar short. That man will never be president. Kolbe had better get his story straight. Toast as in "indicted" if he doesn't.
JAFO | 10.10.06 - 6:17 pm | #

"The only way to restore the Constitution is if the PEOPLE rise up in fury and sweep aside the collaborationists of this Congress and put people in office who will truly represent the people's interest and the Constitution."

I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting for that to happen...there were no mass rallies after the Katrina debacle, nor now with the Foley scandal. People in this country have forgotten that the government belongs to them. They just go vote every couple of years and then watch the government like it was a TV show. This week on "The Real West Wing"...
liberalrob | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 6:21 pm | #

The fact the McCain signed on to the torture bill makes me conclude that he is deranged, possibly from his torture and ill-treatment by the North Vietnamese.
Or maybe it's the Republican and 12/100th Democrat in him.
nuf said | 10.10.06 - 6:22 pm | #

liberalrob,

"They just go vote every couple of years"

Judging by the turnout numbers, there aren't a lot that do this, either.

If more people vote for their favorite singer on a TV show, or vote for their least-favorite TV show participant to leave the show, or whatever, than vote in elections, I don't want to know. Please, just don't tell me. I've had enough bad news for one day. You can tell me tomorrow. Today, I don't wanna know.

Rob
Desert Son | 10.10.06 - 6:24 pm | #

What strikes me in reading the account of Jose Padilla's maltreatment at the hands of the government is the contrast with what I experience as a municipal police officer. The seizure of a human being is often underappreciated by those who have never experienced it and by those who carry it out. However, even the basic act of confinement by the government is a profound act of power that can easily be trivialized when the one confined is presumed to be guilty.

I and my fellow officers work in an environment that constantly reinforces the fact that when we arrest someone we assume a responsibility for their welfare for the duration of the time we hold them. As one can imagine, some prisoners will act in ways while confined that requires the use of force against them and thus worsen their experience. However, even the vast majority who are compliant during their confinement cannot properly be viewed as anything other than someone who has been placed into a radically different realm of human experience even though they have some access to the outside world and avenues to gain their release prior to the initiation of court proceedings.

To find oneself in the situation of Mr. Padilla with no contact and no assurance of any aspect whatsoever of your future is something that isn't even known by the most closely confined inmates in a super-max prison where their guilt has already been adjudicated. Even those inmates have access to the judicial system. To defend even the basic character of Mr. Padilla's confinement absolutely requires that the defender assume that Mr. Padilla is guilty even if they are unwilling to acknowledge that belief. To allow the executive branch, on its own initiative, to operate on this basis is something that I, who routinely deal with those accused of crimes, can scarcely imagine exists outside of the pages of pages of 1984.

Regardless of Mr. Padilla's genuine guilt or innocence of any act, the bare facts of his confinement make an absolute mockery of the death of every soldier, sailor, airman or police officer who has ever been killed in the performance of their duties. To retort that this raw power is necessary to "protect Americans" is to assume that there is nothing in being a citizen of this nation for any of us beyond the mere fact of being alive. My own judgment is that this is not what the signers of the Declaration of Independence had in mind when they pledged their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor to the task of creating the United States of America and it horrifies me that those who have taken oaths to defend the Constitution view their fellow citizens as having no greater aspirations as Americans than craven physical safety.

If they are right and I am wrong then being American is little more than being situated in a certain place on the globe with no claim to moral authority beyond what can be enforced through bullets and bombs. Then we are little more than a street gang with assertions of control over our turf. Then we are truly lost.
Diana Powe | 10.10.06 - 6:25 pm | #

I have a feeling this will get someone to throw the "troll" label out at me again, but I don't know if I consider Padilla's treatment "torture."

I consider it shameful, reprehensible, and certainly wrongful imprisonment, and I want it stopped and don't, for fux sake, want this, or any, president to have the right to treat people like this at whim and without oversight. Don't get me wrong, I am not on the government's side in this one. But the account in this story, with the possible exception of the eternally vague "stress positions," is not treatment that I would classify as "torture."

Physical torture may involve beating, burning, cutting, starving, hanging (e.g., by the thumbs or feet), kicking, mutilating, forcing body parts into icy or boiling water, blinding, puncturing ear drums, removing body parts, applying acid or electric shocks, administering drugs or noxious materials, holding the person under water or otherwise preventing access to air, breaking bones, denying adequate shelter from extremely hot or cold weather, and so on. Some methods have become so common that they are given their own names such as "Bell," "Buzzer," "Carry On," "Chepuwa," "Falanga," "Helicopter Trip," "Necklacing," and "Telephone" [see Glossary].

Although all forms of physical torture are likely to have psychological aspects and consequences, some forms of torture are primarily psychological in nature. For example, people may be forced to watch family or friends being tortured, may be given false reports about the torture, death, or betrayal of loved ones, or may be told that they are about to be executed (sometimes followed by a fake execution, in which, e.g., an unloaded gun is held to the person's head and the trigger pulled). Victims of torture may be told that no one remembers them or cares, and that if they survive, no one will believe them. The psychological aspects of torture may range from the seeming inevitability of a fixed routine (e.g., the dread of interrogation and physical torture at set times each day) to an inability to anticipate what will happen next. Jacobo Timerman, editor and publisher of the Argentinean newspaper La Opinion until his arrest by the military, emphasized the agonizing unpredictability of his years in prison in his book Prisoner Without a Name, Cell Without a Number: "[W]henever someone was being prepared for transfer, his eyes blindfolded, his hands tied behind him, thrown on the ground in the back of a car and covered with a blanket, he would have preferred to remain in the clandestine prison. You never knew whether you were being led to an interrogation, torture, death, or another prison . . . " (p. 159).

The shock of it all doesn't seem to go away. Hopefully as the lights are turning on slowly in the American people it will slowly sink in that this attack on our morals our identity is not a partisan thing but an American issue. It took one man Edward Murrow to wake the nation up, perhaps the Glenns, the Altmans, the Balkins, the Olbermanns and the rest of us will finally be heard.
Floyd | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 6:32 pm | #

Oh, and whether or not they want it, I am throwing my "hear, hear"'s! behind AL and Diana Powe's sentiments as voiced above.

I do not want my safety purchased at the expense of liberty - mine or anyone else's. I am somewhat reminded of the saying "Someone who is nice to you, but mean to the waiter, is not a nice person."

A government that believes in safety before liberty, and not in service of liberty, is not the government of a free people.
Nick | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 6:35 pm | #

But I don't find the treatment, as outlined in Padilla's brief, grossly violates my sense of human dignity

Please read the post directly above yours written apparently by a police officer. When the founders talked about "not being deprived of life liberty or property without due process" they knew of what they spoke. After all torture was invented long before the founders wrote the documents which currently hold our country together and they knew that the simple act of arresting someone was something which was not to be taken lightly.

Abuse of power is a fact of human nature and the founders of our Nation put a lot of thought into how to minimize it. The fact that were currently in the process of flushing all their work down the toilet speaks ill of the American paople.
Paul Dirks | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 6:37 pm | #

Robert 1014,

I hope to see the Constitution restored, yes, but I admit 2008 is optimistic at best. And it is certainly true that my hope is not reflected in current political realities.

But really, how long can public figures support torture over the Constitution of the United States? That's not a left-wing issue, much as the neocons pretend it is. There is a pro-constitution right wing out there, albeit mostly silent or fearful or woefully short-sighted these days. They may not object to 'free speech zones' during elections, but wait until someone starts creating 'right to bear arms zones'.

Surely the values being violated in the Padilla case alone are blatantly objectionable to almost any rational person. Just as the values enshrined in the Constitution are self-evidently noble and have generally been admired and imitated across Western society for more than two centuries.

Also John Lowell, thanks for the insightful words and the best to you too.
Bullsmith | 10.10.06 - 6:41 pm | #

Paul Dirks:
... After all torture was invented long before the founders wrote the documents which currently hold our country together and they knew that the simple act of arresting someone was something which was not to be taken lightly. ...

I am not defending the treatment, and find it reprehensible. I just think torture is the wrong word.

...The fact that were currently in the process of flushing all their work down the toilet speaks ill of the American paople. ...

Couldn't agree with you more.
Nick | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 6:42 pm | #

I think our goverment has a very narrow and flexible definition of who exactly is an American. Maybe Padilla just didnt look like one to them, so they acted as if they were torturing a monkey or something. I think the mentality of the crazies now in power should make us all very scared, especially those of us who dont "look" American in the eyes of these monsters. The fact that a person IS an American really doesn't seem to matter anymore.
Geoff | 10.10.06 - 6:44 pm | #

Diane Powe,

Excellent post, and thank you for your perspective as a law-enforcement officer. I think one of the keys in all of this is the shift in policy from innocent until proven guilty to presumption of guilty across the board and we'll see about innocent when (if), well, . . . . The nation has swerved dangerously away from the rule of law, and dangerously toward the rule of a king. You cited the Founding Fathers, and there's the rub. They built this idea of a nation expressly eschewing the rulership of kings, end expressly establishing the rule of law.

Also, thank you for serving. I can't imagine that what you do for a living is easy even on it's best days, and you're probably not paid enough, and you probably witness some pretty horrible things on a regular basis (outside the evisceration of the U.S. Constitution, which we're all witness to lately). Stay safe, watch your back, remember what it means to be free.

Rob
Desert Son | 10.10.06 - 6:48 pm | #

I just think torture is the wrong word

OK, lets just call it applying all the psy-ops they learned when they really were force-feeding test subjects LSD (I doubt they did that to Padilla in spite of the lawyer's claims.) To subject someone to that treatment without any actual actionable evidence of guilt remains an evil and as long as American's are aquiessing to that as SOP, then we have lost any right to lecture anybody on the planet about human rights or for that matter to brag about our constitution in the first place.
Paul Dirks | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 6:51 pm | #

This forum is frequented by a poster named “Bart.” The Concerned Citizens for Truth and Justice provide the following information about Bart as a service to the online community:

Bart has no interest in understanding you. Bart will only read your words to see if he can somehow twist them to his purposes.

Bart pretends that he is open to honest debate and has pure intentions. Bart lies. Bart has no regard for facts or logical argument.

Bart is a bully and coward. Bart will bludgeon other posters with harsh rhetoric and flawed arguments and proclaim victory on the basis of having shouted the loudest. When called on it, Bart will claim that he is the victim of injustice.

Bart never apologizes and sees such actions as a sign of weakness. Do not apologize to Bart.

Bart has no sense of humor. Irony and sarcasm are wasted on Bart.

Bart is only useful as the target of ridicule for his intellectual superiors. Happily, he is marvelously effective in this capacity. Bart should be mocked and ridiculed at every opportunity. There is no need to address the substance of his remarks. (There isn’t any.)

Bart continues to fail to deny serious accusations of bestiality, in effect admitting that he commits sex acts with goats.

Remember, when Bart smiles, the terrorists win.
CCTJ | 10.10.06 - 6:52 pm | #

the reason people can defend this sort of government activity is because it doesn't sound like the torture we see in movies. i mean, when people hear torture, they think fingernails getting pulled, the rack, selectively painful gunshot wounds, etc. they hear "stress positions" and they don't wince, so they don't think it's a big deal. to convince these lunatics, the angle to be played is that padilla has been subject to this treatment for almost an entire presidential term. people don't keep jobs they don't like for that long. torture itself isn't enough to scare people from voting republican, so we need to explain that it's not just torture, but the continuing torture of demonstrably innocent civilians. the most damning thing bush is doing right now is that he refuses to STOP torturing people he knows to be innocent. there is no speakable defense of that.
Utica | 10.10.06 - 6:53 pm | #

Doesn't sound like torture to me either, Nick. I don't like the involuntary drug injection allegations though. Did the government answer those?
daleyrocks | 10.10.06 - 6:53 pm | #

It will take about four friedmans (2 years) for the reports about torture in America's jails and prisons to begin circulating -- American society's strictures against torture have now been broken and the MPs from Guantanamo and Iraq will be coming home, resuming their old positions as police and prison guards. Powe notwithstanding, there are many in these positions who already think they should have the right to be judge, jury and executioner -- Iraq has taught them how to do it, and Bush has given them permission.
CathiefromCanada | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 6:56 pm | #

uh oh. I know I must be on the wrong track to be agreeing with daley...

haven't seen any answers anywhere from the government for the treatment, detention, lack of prosecution, etc other than to claim privelege and state secrets and basically blow it out your ass we can do what we want to anyone...
Nick | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 6:58 pm | #

http://www.ohchr.org/english/ bod...tasscreport.doc

The United Nations has long since ruled this combination of techniques to constitute torture:

“These methods include 1.) restraining in very painful positions, 2.) hooding under special conditions, 3.) sounding of loud music for prolonged periods, 4.) sleep deprivation for prolonged periods, 5.) threats, including death threats, 6.) violent shaking and 7.) using cold air to chill; and are in the Committee’s view…torture….This conclusion is particularly evident where such methods of interrogation are used in combination….”
Dilbatt | 10.10.06 - 6:59 pm | #

Glenn, how does the recent legislation signed into law by Bush impact Padilla's status? Hasn't he already been declared an "enemy combatant"? Can't he now be removed from the legal process and placed back right where he started?
Paul | 10.10.06 - 6:59 pm | #

Paul Dirks

...To subject someone to that treatment without any actual actionable evidence of guilt remains an evil ...

I think we are basically on the same page Paul, I was only making a point about the language. Possibly a very ill-timed point.
Nick | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 7:00 pm | #

This kind of treatment is already the norm, or almost is (skip the interrogations), in our federal Supermax prisons. As a society we already accept/ignore/turn a blind eye to/are kept ignorant of/heartily approve of doing this to people---citizens--- who are not even necessarily violent but somehow end up in a Supermax prison.

So the technology and the knowhow and the cold heartlessness are there. All the government needed to do is to take that and put it to use in their facilities. Oh, and get permission from Spector et al to do it to people who were not even convicted or even charged. Point is, the problem is not really them. It is us. We let it happen, and we go to work at these places and are happy to have jobs.
Baldie McEagle | 10.10.06 - 7:02 pm | #

Doesn't sound like torture to me either, Nick

So you'll be volunteering for the study testing the efficacy of the treatment in eliciting truth then... It's only three years. And your current life doesn't appear all that valuable....

Let us know how it goes.....
Paul Dirks | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 7:03 pm | #

"so you want to be forced to become a Muslim?"

Any adult who says that should be punched, hard, in the head.
Baldie McEagle | 10.10.06 - 7:03 pm | #

Glenn, how does the recent legislation signed into law by Bush impact Padilla's status? Hasn't he already been declared an "enemy combatant"? Can't he now be removed from the legal process and placed back right where he started?

The Supreme Court all but said that they would hear his appeal if he were removed from the criminal process. And Hamdi already said that the Government has to provide U.S. citizens some forum in which to challenge the validity of their detention, so he would be entitled either way to some minimal process of some sort.
Glenn Greenwald | 10.10.06 - 7:05 pm | #

It borders on treasonous to suggest that our commander in Chief is not following the letter of the law to the letter of the law

Brilliant!
Baldie McEagle | 10.10.06 - 7:07 pm | #

You get what you pay for. We have paid billions to have the military industrial congressional complex take over our lives.

Linda J.

Exactly.
Baldie McEagle | 10.10.06 - 7:08 pm | #

I was only making a point about the language

I know but the difference in semantics is where people like daleyrocks gets his talking points.

It can't be torture! Afer all he's still alive. And we didn't waterboard him. And after 2 years we let him see a lawyer and then allowed him to read.

Nope no torture here...so why is there even a problem?
Paul Dirks | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 7:08 pm | #

Nick: Yeah, it was torture. At a minimum consider this one technical point:

Physical torture may involve ... denying adequate shelter from extremely hot or cold weather ....

Then go back to the article:

The temperature of his cell would be manipulated, making his cell extremely cold for long stretches of time.

So, there is an exact match to your definition on that one point.

But, more than that, the whole treatment regime -- taken as a whole -- can only be described as torture. You can't just look at each act individually, as that allows the torturers to get off on technicalities -- look at the whole package.
Deep in red country | 10.10.06 - 7:09 pm | #

"You can't be a good guy and do bad guy things."

-Terry Pratchett, Thud
James F. Elliott | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 7:11 pm | #

Don't get me wrong, I am not on the government's side in this one.
Nick

Nick, you ARE on the wrong side if you do not grasp that the difference between slapping you and crushing your skull is very slight.
Baldie McEagle | 10.10.06 - 7:15 pm | #

I suspect that when Democrats retake congress and begin to properly investigate these crimes and hold the people responsible for them accountable (and boy will that be fun to watch), there will be an effort to categorize them as sui generis, the unfortunate one time abuse of our laws and values by a bunch of out of control zealots, who really just had the best interests of our country in mind, and simply crossed some lines in their quite understandable zeal to protect the US from further attacks. I.e. some combination of the "some bad apples" and "overzealous interrogators" excuses that we've been hearing for the past several years.

I certainly hope that we don't buy this or allow it to percolate up into a national concensus, because that would profoundly mischaracterize what this is really all about, which is, and has been, in my opinion, a partially (and perhaps more than partially) successful attempt by inherently fascist elements within our society and legal and political system to institutionalize, within both the law and the national consciousness, a set of values, ideas, outlooks, practices, policies and laws that are deeply, fundamentally and unalterably at odds with the values, ideas, outlooks, practices, policies and laws that this country and our democracy are deeply, fundamentally and unalterably based upon.

This is not an overreaction or mischaracterization on my part, I believe, but rather an accurate and demonstrable fact that history will bear out as quite accurate. What we've witnessed these past 5 years (and really much longer than that, as the groundwork for this Bush Doctrine was laid years before he ever took office, by the men and women who worked for Nixon, Ford, Reagan and Bush I, and of course the Gingrich-led congress) is nothing short of an attempt to radically, fundamentally and permanently alter the legal and moral standards upon which this country was built and has been sustained. And the way in which men like Padilla have been treated are merely symptomatic of this agenda and the mindset that led to it.

I've no doubt that what happened to Padilla is just the tip of a vast iceberg, and that what we will eventually discover about the lengths and depths to which the Bush administration and its GOP lapdogs will truly make us shudder, and recoil in shock and disgust. Even if it turns out that what happened to Padilla happened on a relatively small scale so far, I've also no doubt that, if the people who were fully behind, knowledgeable about and supportive of what happened to him are ever allowed to fully implement their radical takeover of our democracy and destruction of the legal and moral system upon which it is based and has thrived, they will not hesitate to do what was done to Padilla to thousands if not millions more, if they felt that it was necessary.

This was not sui generis. This was not a one-off aberration. This was not limited to a few "bad apples" and "overzealous people" just trying to protect the US as they best knew how. This was, clearly--and ample proof exists via the voluminous writings, sayings and most of all actions by these people--the overt manifestation of a fundamentally evil, anti-Democratic, anti-humanistic, anti-American fascist movement, that has always existed in one form or another throughout our history, and has manifested itself on numerous other occasions in the past, this one clearly being the most heinous and destructive of all.

And this movement and its beliefs and believers and agenda will not simply go away even if we're able to get rid of its current top leaders, believers and practitioners. We will forever have to be on guard for them, because they will forever be with us, lurking just beneath the surface, and waiting for their next opportunity to emerge from their dark caves to wreak their havoc and evil once again. I am not engaging in idle hyperbole here. I truly and fully believe this, and the facts, I believe, fully bear me out. I just hope that the past 5 years will serve as an effective caution against allowing such fascists to rise up again in the future, as they will surely try their best to do--and may well succeed in, in our lifetimes, if not stopped.

I'm Jewish, and grew up repeatedly hearing the phrase "Never Again", referring to the Nazi Holocaust. Well, I say here now as well, referring to the Bush administration, its fascist agenda, its willing and knowing supporters and enablers, and its future would-be idolizers, emulators and successors, and addressing current and future generations:

NEVER AGAIN.
Kovie | 10.10.06 - 7:17 pm | #

If they are right and I am wrong then being American is little more than being situated in a certain place on the globe with no claim to moral authority beyond what can be enforced through bullets and bombs. Then we are little more than a street gang with assertions of control over our turf. Then we are truly lost.
Diana Powe

Glenn is right... can't be stated any better than this. Neo-cons have reduced America to the equivalent of just another sports team to root for. It has always been a source of fascination to me how people can get so attached to their local sports franchise when the vast majority of them are just businesses which feel free to uproot themselves and go elsewhere periodically in search of a better deal.

That's what neo-con Bushism has done to America. We're becoming just another team that we root for because we happen to live here.
r€nato | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 7:19 pm | #

being American is little more than being situated in a certain place on the globe with no claim to moral authority beyond what can be enforced through bullets and bombs. Then we are little more than a street gang with assertions of control over our turf.

this is PRECISELY the neo-con view of what makes America great.

Not civil rights; not freedom; not the Constitution; not the rule of law.

Just the fact that we are by far the biggest bully on the block, so we damn well better get our way.
r€nato | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 7:23 pm | #

Kovie....
I was just going to comment on how you have more faith in human nature than I am willing to concede, but then Renato piped in with the proper explanation why.

Most people are willing to support a "brand" then they are to examine the actual ingredients and respond accordingly. Think of the millions of dollars that are spent doing little more than designing logo's.

Even thoughtful intelligent people are manipulable by clever marketing and as long as the "Republican" brand is being reinforced as the "American" brand in the boardrooms of America, then our ability to claim our country back for the legacy of the founders will remain sharply curtailed.
Paul Dirks | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 7:28 pm | #

As long as we invent new ways to interrorgate terrorists, it's not torture!
Nirvision | 10.10.06 - 7:33 pm | #

Those who resist thinking of our treatment of Padilla (and others) as torture may either be true believers in or apologists for this criminal administration, or, like Nick, they may be persons who recognize the abusive and coercive nature of such treatment, but who have come to think of torture in terms of the more horrific types of acts common to the middle ages, to the courts of the Inquisition, or to the Nazis...you know, horrible mutilation, electric shocks, breaking of bones, etc.

However, I think this is a reflexive semantic misapprehension. Such horrible acts as drawing and quartering and impalement on metal rods have been part of torture techniques, (generally the terminal part), but they and less fatal but equally grisly techniques do not make up the whote of what torture is.

I would suggest the torture simply represents the application of any phsyically or psychologically abusive technique whatsoever by a powerful individual, group, or state against a powerless individual (or group of individuals). It is the pure expression of power: the torturer has absolute power to do as desired against the victim, who has absolutely no power to resist or defend against that expression of power.

What we have done to Padilla (and others) is torture.
Robert1014 | 10.10.06 - 7:36 pm | #

Did Bush actually sign the Millitary Detainee Bills into law? I can not find notation anywhere, but I do not have nexus/lexus capability. Thanks.
sailmaker | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 7:39 pm | #

"But I don't find the treatment, as outlined in Padilla's brief, grossly violates my sense of human dignity, and I think it does a disservice to the language and the debate to label such mistreatment 'torture.'"

As much as it boggles my mind that Nick wouldn't label the treatment of Padilla "torture" (to call it such would do a disservice to the language - talk about trivializing the situation), I find it more unfathomable that it doesn't violate his sense of human dignity. I can't imagine how it could be so. It doesn't offend him that any one of these things are being done by his government in his name, never mind that all of them have been done over a period of several years by his government in his name? Jeez, just what would offend his sense of human dignity?
mrgumby2u | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 7:40 pm | #

"But I don't find the treatment, as outlined in Padilla's brief, grossly violates my sense of human dignity, and I think it does a disservice to the language and the debate to label such mistreatment 'torture.'"

As much as it boggles my mind that Nick wouldn't label the treatment of Padilla "torture" (to call it such would do a disservice to the language - talk about trivializing the situation), I find it more unfathomable that it doesn't violate his sense of human dignity. I can't imagine how it could be so. It doesn't offend him that any one of these things are being done by his government in his name, never mind that all of them have been done over a period of several years by his government in his name? Jeez, just what would offend his sense of human dignity?
mrgumby2u | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 7:40 pm | #

To retort that this raw power is necessary to "protect Americans" is to assume that there is nothing in being a citizen of this nation for any of us beyond the mere fact of being alive.

who was the red state senator who said, 'your civil rights don't mean anything if you're dead'? Was it Brownback from Kansas?

What a jackass. Diane Powe has perfectly illustrated how unAmerican such a statement is.
r€nato | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 7:48 pm | #

Paul,

Have you at all been paying attention there past few weeks, and really months? The modern Republican "brand" of being the stronger, more effective, more moral, and more "American" party is collapsing right before our eyes. From a marketing perspective (not one that I am fond of as I think that this runs far deeper than product, message and brand identification), what we're seeing is the Ford Edsel and Pinto combined, with perhaps some New Coke and Waterwold thrown in: a complete and utter disaster that will cause them immense and likely long-term damage.

However, I do not accept this reduction of democracy as a matter of branding. It does play an undeniable role, of course, but only over relatively short periods of time--and compared to our country's 230 year history, 26 years isn't that long. Ultimately, whether they know it consciously or can articulate it meaningfully, or are cynical about it, most Americans, I believe, still care about such things as competence, honesty, decency, freedom, equality and fairness--the bedrock principles upon which our democracy is based--than about the flavor of the month. And they do so because it is a part of our collective national unconscious, and of our conscious value and belief system.

Sure, of course, any given movement can, for a while, co-opt these values and beliefs and effectively pretend to be their truer champion--as the GOP has done since Reagan. But sooner or later, if it can't live up to these values and beliefs, even partially, its transparency, dishonesty and craveness will become apparent, and the public will reject them, as it is clearly doing now.

I'm not saying that such a movement can't someday find away around the fact that it is both dishonest and incompetent, and supported by only a minority of Americans. Clearly, this can happen, and has happened to some extent in this and other countries. Which is precisely why the rest of us--the majority of Americans, that is--forever need to be on guard for such movmements and people, and do everything necessary to keep them at bay. Part of that might well come down to better "branding". But the better part must be, I believe, substance, in the form of strong and effective DEMOCRATIC governance and leadership, a more honest and effective media, and a more engaged and knowledgeable populace.

I am not to cynical as to believe that this isn't possible. And I pity those who do, because they have, effectively, given up, whether or not they say so or realize it.
Kovie | 10.10.06 - 7:50 pm | #

Liberal bloggers are complete looney tunes vis-a-vis the American People. Why don't you try running be-kind-to-terrorists-like-Padilla campaign ads and see how how that will resonate with the American Voter?
anonymous | 10.10.06 - 7:51 pm | #

Thanks. A great post. I had read about the motion filed by Padilla's lawyer, but this goes into far greater depth.

I continue to be disturbed that those who crow the loudest about their patriotism are not disturbed by this. America should never have been, and should not be, party to this sort of thing, which is a perversion of our justice system and a profound wound upon humanity.
Batocchio | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 7:52 pm | #

Liberal bloggers are complete looney tunes vis-a-vis the American People. Why don't you try running be-kind-to-terrorists-like-Padilla campaign ads and see how how that will resonate with the American Voter?

Isn't that your mommy calling you for some milk and cookies, Karl?
Kovie | 10.10.06 - 7:54 pm | #

anonymous at 7:51 p.m. posted: "be-kind-to-terrorists-like-Padilla"

I hadn't heard that it had been determined he is/was a terrorist. Can you cite the official document that found him guilty of such?

Oh, wait. Was he given a trial? I'm not sure he was. I guess there wouldn't be an official document indicating he was guilty of being a terrorist, then.

Hmm. So, by your post, Padilla is guilty-until-proven-innocent. In this country we have (well, we had) a system whereby an accused individual is innocent-until-proven-guilty.

So, again, please cite the documentation that proves he is guilty of terrorism.

By the way, I'm all for a trial (an honest, fair trial, mind) with evidence and argumentation and, if he is then found guilty, incarceration. If he is not found guilty, release.

But he hasn't received a trial, has he?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks,

Rob
Desert Son | 10.10.06 - 8:00 pm | #

anonymous coward:

I guess you didn't get the memo:

None of the original allegations put forward by the U.S. government three years ago, the claims that held Padilla in the majority in solitary confinement throughout that period, were part of the indictment: "Attorney General Alberto Gonzales announced Padilla is being removed from military custody and charged with a series of crimes" and "There is no mention in the indictment of Padilla's alleged plot to use a dirty bomb in the United States. There is also no mention that Padilla ever planned to stage any attacks inside the country. And there is no direct mention of Al-Qaeda. Instead the indictment lays out a case involving five men who helped raise money and recruit volunteers in the 1990s to go overseas to countries including Chechnya, Bosnia, Somalia and Kosovo. Padilla, in fact, appears to play a minor role in the conspiracy. He is accused of going to a jihad training camp in Afghanistan but the indictment offers no evidence he ever engaged in terrorist activity."

Sadomasochism, pure and simple. Is this what the Bush government is about?
X | 10.10.06 - 8:02 pm | #

the indictment referred to in the above quotation is the indictment issued November 22, 2005 against Padilla. Whatever Padilla did, he is far, far, far, far from the terrorist mastermind the US government hysterically painted him as 4 years ago.
r€nato | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 8:02 pm | #

Glenn: You are a monsterful blogger! I wish I could think as fast as you can type!! What a gift...

In addition to saying THANKS for all you're doing, I'm gonna ask whether maybe you could do even a little bit more ...

It seems to me that if you turned some of your considerable attention to this story you could do a lot of people a lot of good:

Legal Residents, Illegally Detained, Need Help -- and You Can Help Them!!

Peace Earth Justice are carrying it and I thank them for that ... but you could carry it much farther if you would be so kind as to do just one post on behalf of some very wrongfully incarcerated people.

Thanks again and best wishes.

WP
Winter Patriot | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 8:13 pm | #

Liberalism inevitably leads to totalitarianism ... or at least that's what Father Richard John Neuhaus and his wingnut cohorts say, so therefore everything Bush does is justified.

That's the unspoken logic of the sick, pathological, ignorant, cowardly, dangerous, violent, vengeful, unchristian, absolutely absolutely unamerican, pathetic, subhuman right-wing monsters in this country who know nothing except the unthinking, unfeeling, despicable, utterly evil, foul, toxic, fraudulent grunts fed to their frail minds by the fanatic propagandists in the Republican party and the conservative movement.

What a total, absolute, unmitigated disgrace.
Both Guns Blazing | 10.10.06 - 8:18 pm | #

Wow. I'm sure there's a lotta dead Americans who wish white folks woulda cared this much when Native Americans and black folks were going through this en masse.

Guess they'll have to take what they can get.

It *does* seem pretty clear that America is running outta brown-skinned folks to whom to do this sort of thing - Native Americans are essentially gone, black folks are likely a permanent underclass, American muslims are too few, American asians want nothing more in the world than to be white republicans - hispanics are about all that's left.

Well, except for white folks - and presumably they'd start with the nigger-loving liberal white folks - lol! It stands to reason that white folks would suddenly grow concerned for their own necks - lol!

I'm sure your *timely* concern will be duly noted by all relevant parties.
cdj | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 8:19 pm | #

2006 Military Commissions thing ... Did he sign it? And if so, was a signing statement attached?
jello5929 | 10.10.06 - 6:02 pm

No. Not signed yet. The MCA wasn't officially presented to the President until today. Now he has ten days to arrange an appropriate ceremony.
anonymous | 10.10.06 - 8:22 pm | #

When I read of these blatant and outrageous assaults on a man's civil liberties, I just ask myself, what kind of country have we become that we allow our government to do this?
Karim | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 8:28 pm | #

Sadomasochism, pure and simple. Is this what the Bush government is about?

It's been rumored that Rumsfeld received photos and videos of interrogations - I can imagine the antiAmerican asshole stroking off to the sight of brown folks getting tortured.
NobodySpecial | 10.10.06 - 8:28 pm | #

Nick...Don't get me wrong, I am not on the government's side in this one. But the account in this story, with the possible exception of the eternally vague "stress positions," is not treatment that I would classify as "torture."

That's funny. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt if I can put you in one of these...

Sensory deprivation is the deliberate reduction or removal of stimuli from one or more of the senses. Simple devices such as blindfolds and earmuffs can cut off sight and hearing respectively, while more complex devices can also cut off the sense of smell, touch, taste, thermoception (heat-sense), and 'gravity'. Sensory deprivation has been used in various alternative medicines and in psychological experiments (e.g., see Isolation tank), and for torture or punishment.

Just to see how long you last before you go stark raving mad. Let's not forget, these have many uses that have nothing to do with torture. 15 hours and you might never come back.

Read this, too:

http://mcrais.googlepages.com/thomas.htm

Then think again.
Anonymous | 10.10.06 - 8:53 pm | #

no mention in the indictment of Padilla's alleged plot to use a dirty bomb in the United States. There is also no mention that Padilla ever planned to stage any attacks inside the country. And there is no direct mention of Al-Qaeda.

I guess those "extraordinary" interrogation techniques get to the truth after all. To think that I doubted for an instant!
Paul Dirks | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 9:05 pm | #

SDT:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Sen...ory_deprivation

Shorter Diana Powe:

Arrest, detention, incarceration... It's the same as kidnapping. State sanctioned kidnapping.
Anonymous | 10.10.06 - 9:09 pm | #

Why don't you try running be-kind-to-terrorists-like-Padilla campaign ads and see how how that will resonate with the American Voter?

Assuming the truth of the assertion, that torture of American citizens is a big hit with voters, I'm still not sure how their being assholes requires us to be assholes.

Sub specie aeternitatis, there are some things more important than winning elections.
Davis X. Machina | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 9:22 pm | #

Nick seems to be fully honest, but I don't see the point of the tortured (sorry) word splitting.

For one thing, he quotes a discussion of "physical" torture. This in itself is problematic since the first word is by definition a subset of the second.

Second, he agrees with the police officer's comments. If so, how exactly could he feel that the behavior does not "grossly violate[] [his] sense of human dignity?" The term is rather narrow if D's discussion makes it clear that just that did occur.

Finally, if "sleep deprivation," temperature change, "noxious fumes," physical threats, stress positions, long term continual isolation, and so forth is not torture OR a "gross violation" of "human dignity" what exactly is?

But, he is against it. Seriously so! So why all the concern that the distrustful would suggest clouds the issue?

[btw Balkanization has a good negation of the 'ticking bomb' scenario.]
Joe | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 9:32 pm | #

I wish there were a way to make all the Congressmen who voted for the detainee bill -- and especially the three who engineered the "compromise" -- to read this post and Diane Powe's comment.
crust | 10.10.06 - 9:35 pm | #

I wish there were a way to make all the Congressmen who voted for the detainee bill -- and especially the three who engineered the "compromise" -- to read this post and Diane Powe's comment.
crust | 10.10.06 - 9:35 pm | #

By their fruits ye shall know them.
Charles Hall | 10.10.06 - 9:43 pm | #

I used to model for life drawing classes . . . sitting in one position for even 20 minutes sometimes caused such circulation loss that I couldn't walk for hours afterwards.

Try just sitting on the ground sometime with your legs not even cross legged, but in a position you'd think would be comfortable for 20 minutes. I'd have to do 20 minutes with a five minute break and then go back into the position again. During my breaks I would become nauseus with fear of having to go back into a position that I had chosen. It took me quite some time to learn what my body could tolerate . . . . and how to chose something that would allow my body to recover the next day without severely swollen joints, etc. That was in a controlled friendly environment.

That innocuous phrase "stress positions," just gives me shudders.
m! | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 9:43 pm | #

The trolls are this close *pinches index finger and thumb* to asking the government to put them on the rack. Why can't they just get together and do it to themselves?
steve_e | 10.10.06 - 9:56 pm | #

Geoff at 6:44 said:

I think our goverment has a very narrow and flexible definition of who exactly is an American. Maybe Padilla just didnt look like one to them, so they acted as if they were torturing a monkey or something.

This is a key insight, yeah. I've lived in Puerto Rico off and on, and Padilla (and the rest of the island) are US citizens but are not considered equal by the feds. Puerto Ricans don't talk about it much to "foreigners" until you've lived there a while, but there is a long, long history of shocking behavior on the part of the United States in their colonial possession.

Case in point: in the 50's/60's, when the pharmaceuticals were testing birth control methods, they were administered to Puerto Rican women without, you know, actually telling anyone. Then, when they went on the market, Big Pharma didn't sell them in Puerto Rico. The Federal Government advocated involuntary sterilization of Puerto Ricans for many years to keep the population under control, in fact.

(Fun fact: all Viagra for the North American market is produced in Puerto Rico. Betcha didn't know that!)

I lived in the city of Ponce for two years before I ever heard of the Ponce Massacre. Nationalists gathered in a peaceful demonstration in the town square (it's not just the Ponceños that call it peaceful, it's established historical fact) and federal troops were called to rein them in. They did so by opening fire. Hundreds were wounded, 19 died, including one seven-year-old.

This was not in the dim and misty past, and it wasn't done by jackbooted Euro colonizers. It was done by the United States government in 1937 in a prosperous city which had been a US possession for decades. Granted, they weren't US citizens yet, not until the 50's. But they were Americans even if their legal status was still iffy.

What I'm trying to say is that yes, the federal government does indeed see some Americans as more equal than others, no matter what the law says. Puerto Ricans have been United States citizens for fifty years now, but they're still considered Dark and Dangerous. If Padilla had had a little more Castillian and less indio in him, or if he was from Idaho, he never would have been looked at twice.
Michael | 10.10.06 - 9:58 pm | #

This seems like as good a time as any to ask a question that's been bugging me for some time: what moral grounds can justify treating Americans and non-Americans differently, at least when it comes to the protections that American law offers against governmental abuse?

It is a major point of outrage that Padilla was (drum roll) an American citizen. The clear implication is that the abuse he suffered would have been less outrageous had he not been American. Congress routinely, and with public approval, passes legislation codifying lesser protections under the law for non-Americans that fall into the hands of our forces.

What can justify this stance? What makes those who happen to have been born on American soil, or of American parents, more deserving of protection against tyranny at the hands of our government?

Who will stand up and explain to me how this is in any way moral?
Mark | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 10:01 pm | #

Nick is clueless. No point in arguing. He just literally has no concept of how bad sleep depravation and isolation can be. This before you even begin on "stress positions," physical threats, and forced drug use.
space | 10.10.06 - 10:07 pm | #

There is nothing in your post Glen that describes torture, and your calling it torture over and over again does not make it so. Oh boo hoo he had to be in isolation. He deserved a bullet to the head.

All the evidence is that the methods used to acquire intelligence from these unlawful enemy combatants is perfectly reliable, and it was reliable about Padilla's traitorous conduct.

As an enemy combatant Padilla deserves a bullet in the head. The fact that he got isolation and a hard bed to sleep on is a sign of our country's humanity and ability to treat those who would destroy us with much more compassion than the enemy deserves.

Your quoting to a "claimed" police officer for your update was laugably predictable. You and the lefties keep confusing fighting a war with run of the mill law enforcement. They are different with different procedures and practices.

Padilla should be dead. The fact that he isn't is a testament to the bending over backwards of the Bush administration to treat these illegal combatants in a far more humane and politie manner than they would treat any of us. After all they want to make our children glow in the dark and die a violent death puking up their guts in uncontrollable radiation poisoning agony.

Says the "Dog"
JunkYarkLawDog | 10.10.06 - 10:09 pm | #

Am I too late to tell "Floyd" to go fuck himself?

Oh, well...
dave™© | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 10:16 pm | #

There is nothing in your post Glen that describes torture...

Oh, but I am in time to tell Brownshit JYLD to blow it out his ass!

Anytime you want to go through what Padilla did, motherfucker, you give me a call. I'll be happy to oblige you.
dave™© | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 10:17 pm | #

I know this comment is going to invite some eye-rolling and accusations of "conspiracy theorizing", but I have to say it anyway.

There is something special about Jose Padilla. I don't know what it is. Early on after he was first detained, there were some who suggested that he looked an awful lot like John Doe #2 from the Oklahoma City bombing.

Now, I'm not saying that I know that Padilla was involved somehow, but I do know that I had a bad feeling about this case from the get go. I said to myself that we are not going to see this go free alive...or sane.

Now, you can argue that the Bush administration has treated Padilla the way they have because they have a sadistic streak. You can argue that it is because they want to tortue...to show they can. You can argue that they want to uphold the "unitary Executive" theory. You can argue any of those things and you wouldn't be wrong.

But I would submit that the treatment of Padilla has another element to it. For some reason, the Bush administration decided that (a) this guy is never going to see the light of day and (b) they cannot tell the American people the real reason why. And I don't believe it is to protect "sources & methods".

When I read about Padilla's treatment, including the forced prescriptions of PCP and LSD, I can't help but think that someone really, really wants this guy to (a) drop dead, (b) commit suicide, or (c) completely lose his marbles. Maybe then they'll let him out. When he is so nuts that any ranting he engages in can be dismissed as ravings of a lunatic.
space | 10.10.06 - 10:21 pm | #

The neocon's pets (Junkyarklawdog?) don't realize that they are utterly impotent without the perception that the state empowers their sadism. That's all they have.
steve_e | 10.10.06 - 10:23 pm | #

Glenn, just as I asked after reading your book I will ask again; What was or is the Administrations' intent in all of this. I have laid in bed racking my brain trying to come up with a possible reason for the extreme measure that they require to level against jose Padilla and possibly any one else they see fit and i can only come up with one working theory. What if someone in the CIA was found out to be a spy for a terrorist organization and they were using Padilla as an example of deterrence, you know show a US citizen that just like Eddie Slovak we'll take you out and shoot you, but instead we'll take away all of your rights that you thought you could use to save your ass. Other than as a pure intimidation device I can't see any use in their needs to side step the Constitution in such a glaring fashion, risking so much and having so many elected officials approve of it. What the hell are they afraid of?
the Fly-Man | 10.10.06 - 10:37 pm | #

Dave save your cussing and anger for someone who might be impressed thereby. Like the local 6th graders in your neighborhood.

If only you and Glen, et al would hate the enemy as much as you hate America first.

Love and kisses,

JYLD
JYLD | 10.10.06 - 10:46 pm | #

Don't get discouraged about writing Letters to the Editor. They do notice once enough of them pile up. Worst-case scenario is that you may impress the person whose job it is to read them or file them, even if his/her bosses refuse to print them.
JupiterPluvius | 10.10.06 - 10:47 pm | #

I am literally staggered.

I am not so articulate that I can adequately address the enormity of the injustice that was done, the savagery of the cruelty, the grotesque sadism of the interrogators whose salaries our taxes pay or the truly evil hearts of those who support these practices.

I think Glenn is courageous to even have been able to complete this post. Having to read it, I was in pain. Having to write it, I would have passed out.

One thousand three hundred and seven days of being tortured.

One thousand three hundred and seven days of being tortured.

This is not the petty pace of one tomorrow creeping after another to the last syllable of recorded time, of which Shakespeare wrote.

What we have here is something entirely different. What we have here is that Kafka finally met the Devil himself, they had a child together, and it turned out to be the United States Government.

Oh my god.
Eyes Wide Open | 10.10.06 - 10:48 pm | #

One would think real torture would have killed him long before 1307 days of it.

Or could it be 1307 days proves it wasn't torture at all since he seems to have survived this period in such good health.

Gee after 1307 days of torturning somebody you would think we would be good enough at it to get him to die or something.


Maybe it wasn't torture after all...... hmmmmmmmm...............

JYLD
JYLD | 10.10.06 - 10:58 pm | #

JYLD, send your torture application to the government already. I'm sure you can take it. I mean, you sound so tough pounding those keys on your keyboard. Maybe John Yoo will personally crush your balls in a vice. I guess that wouldn't be considered torture if it got you off, right?
steve_e | 10.10.06 - 11:08 pm | #

JYLD,

You have opened my eyes. Next we could open some of those northern health spas the Soviets used to show the enemy within the error of their ways.

Or is that too soft?

ps. I used to believe Glen, but you have now convinced me I was 100% wrong. You're a genius, and utterly unique in your wisdom.
Bullsmith | 10.10.06 - 11:09 pm | #

JYLD | 10.10.06 - 10:58 pm.

So, when you sold your soul and your basic human empathy, how much did you get for them?
Alt | 10.10.06 - 11:12 pm | #

One thing that has always worried me, is that once torture is normalized in our society by using it on the terrorists, how long until it can be used on drug kingpins? Then on murderers? Then on lesser crimes. After all, why should a child molester have more rights that Padilla?

Ann Coulter has actually called for using torture, not as an interrogation technique, but as a form of punishment for detainees.

http://countercoulter.org/2006/0...fun-and-profit/
CounterCoulter | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 11:22 pm | #

I am so sick of people justifing torture because they are "terrorists" or "9-11 changed everything". Bullshit! This is the trademark slogan of pathetic cowards. This is the USA and we are not perfect but we are better than this. With Bush at the helm and his mindless cowardly supporters marching right along, the terrorists are indeed winning. They are changing the very things that make this country great because they are cowards. They hide their fears behind macho talk and stupid slogans. You have already fucking lost what you are supposed to be protecting if you are torturing and imprisoning AMERICANS without due process.

Nick and other "I don't think its torture" idots: you would probably not survive 1 month of this treatment let alone 3 YEARS. If you did, I doubt you would come out and say, "ughhh that sucked, but I don't think it was torture."
TruAmerican | 10.10.06 - 11:28 pm | #

I heard on Countdown tonight that apparently Bush has not yet signed the detainee bill that congress passed nearly 2 weeks ago, despite having signed a host of other bills in the interim. Does anyone know why this is so?

Could it be because, the minute he signs it, certain legal options immediately become open to those who oppose it, or perhaps to the detainees themselves, that he is not yet prepared to make available to them?

Or, perhaps, could his own lawyers have cautioned him that, the minute he signs it, he could be placing himself and/or those under him in legal peril?

Or could there be some other reason? Just wondering, as this seems rather odd to me.
Kovie | 10.10.06 - 11:30 pm | #

It's times like these that I love lawyers. I hope Padilla, and everyone else we've done this to, sues for milions and millions and millions of dollars. Thanks, Glenn.
Susan | 10.10.06 - 11:37 pm | #

With his latest witless and heartless post, Junkyard Dog reveals that, like The Major, he is actually a satire troll. After all, no one could be as obtuse and frankly, stupid, as his ignorant gibberish would reveal him to be.
Robert1014 | 10.10.06 - 11:38 pm | #

Mini-sermon:

"To this day, I have trouble believing that we have a Government that claims this power against American citizens and has exercised that power and aggressively defended it..."

You don't know much about the Lincoln or Wilson administrations apparently. This sort of activity goes hand in hand with the U.S. waging war.
Horace | 10.10.06 - 11:43 pm | #

"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin

"Should tyranny ever come to this land it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."
- James Madison
Gust | 10.11.06 - 12:07 am | #

Am I too late to tell "Floyd" to go fuck himself?

Oh, well...
dave™©

Never to late, but I am curious as to why.
Floyd | Homepage | 10.11.06 - 12:22 am | #

I heard on Countdown tonight that apparently Bush has not yet signed the detainee bill that congress passed nearly 2 weeks ago, despite having signed a host of other bills in the interim. Does anyone know why this is so?

Probably waiting 'till after the elections. They got lucky imo with the Foley thing breaking when it did, taking focus off the detainee bill; I can't imagine they're going to bring it up again before Nov. Not with a ceremony, at least.

If he does sign it before then, I kinda doubt it'll make the front page of the corporate media.
Dave | 10.11.06 - 12:22 am | #

Dave,

Actually, if anything, I would have expected him to sign it before the election, for its "tough on terror" appeal. Perhaps he was going to sign it right away, but decided not to because of Foley, since it would have lost its PR power then, and is just waiting until the week before the election to do so, when he can once again use it to trump the GOP's "tough on terror" mantra.

Still, I can't help but wonder if there might be some other reason...
Kovie | 10.11.06 - 12:29 am | #

To respond: I am basing my definition of torture on accounts and testimony of abuse sufferred at the hands of Salvadoran and Chilean Death Squads, the Khmer Rouge, and victims of the Apartheid regime in South Africa, among others. These are the images that pop into my mind when I hear the word "torture." People who were hung upside down for days, with small cuts made to let excess blood drain from their heads. People who were forced to watch their children butalized, raped, and killed in front of them. Electrodes on the genitals, etc.

I think there is a substantive difference to that type of treatment and what Padilla was subjected to.

Baldie -

... you ARE on the wrong side if you do not grasp that the difference between slapping you and crushing your skull is very slight.

I would not call slapping someone torture. I would call putting someone's head in a vice torture. I would find both behaviors objectionable, at the very least.

I have not said, and will not say, one word in favor of the treatment accorded Padilla - I think it reprehensible. I would not want to go through it.

I think the point I am trying to make, and I apologize for not having it entirely thought out yet and maybe pissing some people off here, is that "torture" is a rhetorical word which conjures images of death squads and concentration camps. I feel that it is misused here in much the same way that Bush/Cheney misuse and misappropriate the language in order to demonize "those opposed."

At the very least, though, Padilla was grossly abused, and in my name, and I am, indeed furious about it. I'll stop with the semantic sideshow now. Sorry for the distraction.
Nick | Homepage | 10.11.06 - 12:31 am | #

JYLD, let me address your outrageous claim that since Padilla didn't die, it wasn't torture. This man will suffer the emotional, mental, and physical marks for the rest of his life. He will NEVER be the way he was before he was tortured.

Now imagine the US government doing the exact same thing to you. You would undoubtedly be yelling at the top of your lungs for justice to be done. But only for yourself, since you seem to not care a whit for the due process of Padilla.

Padilla's innocence or guilt is not what's on trial here. What IS important is that the US government denied a man his civil liberties and for almost 4 years, they tortured him. Torture is not meant to kill; it is meant to break a person. The body may live, yes, but the mind and soul are shattered.

THIS is what they did to Padilla. And what they claim they can now do to anyone. And it chills my soul to think of it. On suspicion, they could lock up someone I care about. And I would never see them again.

This is a shame that I fear will outlive not only us, but those that will follow after us. We have sold our legacy to a despot.
Kestral | 10.11.06 - 12:49 am | #

It's been rumored that Rumsfeld received photos and videos of interrogations -

And it's a fact that after the failure of the July 20, 1944, plot to kill him, a certain German leader had the perpetrators strung up alive on meathooks while the Gestapo filmed the process so that he could enjoy home movies of the torture (gee, can I call it that?).

If the rumors are true (and I have no doubt that they are), Rummy is in good company as far as his taste in entertainment goes.
Basharov | 10.11.06 - 12:55 am | #

When Bush signs the bill then as far as I am concerned he has abrogated the constitution. Perhaps a case can be made that the congress has already done so. If that's the case then is there any remedy for a State that takes exception to this action? For instance, can a state declare that since the constitution has been materially revised without it's consent it no longer has an obligation to remain a member of the Union and can therefore secede?
sparafucilli | 10.11.06 - 12:59 am | #

Olbermann asked Tuesday night, why hasn't Bush signed the MCA yet? Didn't Bush say it was the MOST IMPORTANT bill in Congress, and didn't Bush say that he needed to sign it ASAP?

Technically, what happens when the White House wants to delay a signing ceremony, is that they ask for Capitol Hill to hold the "presentation". The MCA was held, at White House request, until Tuesday 10/10, when Capitol Hill finally "presented" the MCA to the White House.

Bush must sign it by Friday 10/20.

Maybe somebody will ask Tony Snow why the White House delayed the enactment of the most "urgent" bill of the year?
anonymous | 10.11.06 - 1:06 am | #

Diana Powe:

I'm late to the thread this evening, and just read your comment. Stunning. Glenn was right to single it out. All I can say is this: When I read what you wrote, I instantly felt regret for everything dismissive I've ever said or thought about public servants. Clearly, decent people are everywhere. I thank you very much for your testimony, and for your service to all of us. It means a lot to hear from you.
William Timberman | 10.11.06 - 1:26 am | #

Bush must sign it by Friday 10/20.

I forgot about the time limit. So clearly, if he doesn't sign it by the 20th, then there's something extremely strange going on. Perhaps it really was due to Foley. We'll see.

Also, I've read that a few weeks ago Bush ordered am entire Navy fleet (I think it was the 6th) to steam towards the Persian Gulf, and that it's due to arrive there by the 21st. An interesting coincidence, or indicative of that long-anticipated/dreaded "October Surprise"? N. Korea's recent detonation of a "nuclear" device only adds to the mix.

Could Bush have delayed the signing until the eve of a major operation that he could present to the nation as a one-two punch for national security along with the bill? Or, even more out there, could he have plans to actually use the just-signed law in concert with whatever he has plans for Iran, which, again, is just weeks from the election?

Clearly CT thinking on my part. Still, you never know with these people.
Kovie | 10.11.06 - 1:32 am | #

sparafucilli,

Interesting idea, and I wouldn't at all discount it if things really get out of hand--i.e. Bush actually starts using this bill on a wide scale. But I doubt that this is likely any time soon. Or so I hope...
Kovie | 10.11.06 - 1:33 am | #

"The Dog" takes his turn:

Oh boo hoo he had to be in isolation. He deserved a bullet to the head.

For what, exactly?

You know, "Dog", you might find some people around here that come to the considered conclusion that you deserve a bullet to the head.

All the evidence is that the methods used to acquire intelligence from these unlawful enemy combatants is perfectly reliable, ...

And thus the war to find Saddam's Salman Pak terrorism and hijacking camp which didn't exist, based on "evidence" obtained under torture.

All the evidence is that these torture methods gets you the answers you want to hear. That's a piss-poor way of running a police force, a military, or a country.

... and it was reliable about Padilla's traitorous conduct.

"The Dog" knows this for a fact ... ummm ... because ... well ... you know, it's a fact -- say, look over there, predatory Republican Congressman!

As an enemy combatant Padilla deserves a bullet in the head....

He was arrested at O'Hare Airport ferchrissakes! "Enemy combatant" indeed.

The fact that he got isolation and a hard bed to sleep on is a sign of our country's humanity and ability to treat those who would destroy us with much more compassion than the enemy deserves.

"The Dog" assumes that Padilla is "the enemy" (and has committed actionable crimes. As Lewis Carroll would say, via the Red Queen: "Sentence first -- then verdict."

Your quoting to a "claimed" police officer for your update was laugably predictable. You and the lefties keep confusing fighting a war with run of the mill law enforcement. They are different with different procedures and practices.

Wow. Didn't know O'Hare Airport was under attack. Guess I'll do DFW next trip....

Padilla should be dead. The fact that he isn't is a testament to the bending over backwards of the Bush administration to treat these illegal combatants in a far more humane and politie manner than they would treat any of us....

You mean like pronouncing them guilty without trial?

... After all they want to make our children glow in the dark and die a violent death puking up their guts in uncontrollable radiation poisoning agony.

Rrrrrriiighhht. Even if the reports obtained under torture are true, Padilla thought he could enrich plutonium by swinging it over his head in a bucket. He was more a danger to himself than anyone else, at best.

Cheers,
Arne Langsetmo | Homepage | 10.11.06 - 1:52 am | #

Anybody out there ever whacked himself on the thumb with a hammer? Not quite hard enough to do serious damage. Hurts like hell, sure, but it passes and you take care not to do it again. If someone else accidentally whacked you equally hard on the thumb, same story: no danger it will happen again. And even if it were intentional, if there was no prospect of its happening again (e.g., if it was a punishment), it's just a painful episode. But if somebody whacks you on the thumb, and then later on another finger, and then another, and the prospect is that it will keep happening, spread out in time just enough so that there's always one finger, or toe, or other body part, recovered enough to get whacked again, it's a different story. It's pointless to argue whether something is or is not torture without taking into account repetition, duration and the prospect of relief. A few days of total isolation, sleep deprivation and freezing temperatures and a year of same, with no end in sight, are not the same thing differing merely in degree. Add in stress positions, drugs, etc., and it's absurd to say Padilla wasn't tortured.
eisweino | 10.11.06 - 2:08 am | #

There's a misapprehension among some people (e.g. Nick) that 'torture' applies only to things that make the subject scream; if there's no electric shocks or pulled fingernails, it's not torture. But these are just different methods to acheive the same end as "soft torture" methods: to break and dehumanize the tormented person.

If you ever looked at a picture of emaciated holocaust survivors liberated from the camps and thought they were tortured, then you must accept sleep deprivation as torture: it is very much like starvation. Sleep deprivation on a continued basis will first break you and make you beg, then wreck your immune system, then drive you fully insane, and eventually it will kill you. Sleep deprivation will kill you as surely as starvation will. Just as starvation with just enough calories to keep you alive will torment you and drive you crazy, sleep deprivation with just enough sleep to keep you alive will torment you and drive you crazy. People who think it's not torture because there are no hot pokers involved are fools. Who deserve a little sleep dep.

Similarly, but more slowly, social isolation and sensory restriction are guaranteed to drive you insane. The use of stress positions is simply physical torture in slow motion, the rack creeping up on you. All of these soft torture methods are slower than tooth-pulling, but accomplish the same thing - submission - more slowly and without leaving marks. The only advantage of floggings and shocks is speed.

If you don't like the word "torture," then go ahead and substitute "torment." In both cases, we're talking about using the power of the state to inflict suffering. We're talking about the worst things one human being can do to another. The particular flavor of torment is not so relevant.
cerebrocrat | 10.11.06 - 2:30 am | #

Glenn, you hopeless naif.

At the rate we're going we'll have our first case of Anna Politkovskaya within, oh, say, 5 years.
Lupin | 10.11.06 - 2:50 am | #

[btw Balkanization has a good negation of the 'ticking bomb' scenario.]
Joe

So do http://www.mcitta.org/torture.htm, and they are a little more than just lawyers...

Nick is clueless. No point in arguing. He just literally has no concept of how bad sleep depravation and isolation can be. This before you even begin on "stress positions," physical threats, and forced drug use.
space

Yes... he is when it comes to this issue about torture being something he sees in the movies. It's highly unlikely he has ever even been detained for just a few hours in a drunk tank. But you tracked the conspiracy theories about Padilla in here. Do you have any idea where that nonsense comes from? Glenn Beck (a John Birch moron...)

and people like this pin head...

Michael Rivero is a visual-effects artist who also is the owner of alternative news weblog Whatreallyhappened.com.

Rivero's political beliefs appear to follow a roughly libertarian-paleoconservative base. He has stated that he is a Republican[1], although he frequently criticizes neoconservatives and George W. Bush.

Rivero's support of free speech with regard to those who question the nature and extent of the Holocaust, called holocaust denial[2] by some, and his claims that Zionists acting on behalf of the state of Israel are behind many major terrorist incidents[3][4] and Rivero's labeling of Israeli spying and espionage against the government of the United States as the “Mother of All Scandals”[5] have led to accusations of anti-Semitism against him by his critics,[6] to whom he replies using a quote attributed to Colin Powell pointing out that the criticisim of the governmental policies of the state of Israel is a legitimate critical exercise of reason and is not the equivalent of "anti-Semitism," i.e. hatred of Jews. He also points out that many Jews criticize the policies of the state of Israel, such as organizations like Neturei Karta and organizations within Israel itself such as Gush Shalom.

He has been banned from posting at Free Republic[7].
Anonymous | 10.11.06 - 2:57 am | #

The people who speak favorably about torture disgust & frighten me. They are demons wearing human masks.
Auntie Roo | 10.11.06 - 3:14 am | #

I'm posting this without having read the comments. I would guess that others have touched upon this.

If Padilla was given psychoactive drugs that were anything resembling PCP or LSD without any consent on his part that is torture. Even if he had consented (which I would imagine isn't likely) I do believe that is banned by all sorts of laws. And it's still torture. I can't even come up with a word to describe just how awful that would be with or without his consent. I do not use the word "evil" to describe behaviour very often. In fact I can't think of but a few things that I would inspire me to use that word.

But if Padilla was given anything resembling PCP or LSD or any drug that would be considered a psychedelic or a psychotropic, with or without his consent, somebody needs to go to jail for a long time. And I would have to use the word evil to describe their behavior.

Whatever crime he may have committed, using any drug in that category is torture. If he is innocent or guilty--something, of course, that hasn't be determined-- than someone else needs to go to jail.

And if the president had any inkling of this he should be in jail too.

This fills me full of a kind of rage that I haven't felt in a long time.

I have been convinced that our government has been doing all sorts of things that were beyond the pale. But I've not guessed that chemical torture was on this list. I suppose I should have guessed that.

I suppose nothing should be surprising.

phat
Anonymous | 10.11.06 - 3:17 am | #

Could it be because, the minute he signs it, certain legal options immediately become open to those who oppose it, or perhaps to the detainees themselves, that he is not yet prepared to make available to them?

I believe he has ten days to sign it after which it fails to become law. It's called a pocket veto. Fot those who are paying attention, it would seem that he's preventing an unconstitutional construct from becoming law, for those of us who know better, he's allowing the Congress to come up with something marginally less offensive so as to not spur the Supreme Court into action yet again.
Paul Dirks | Homepage | 10.11.06 - 3:17 am | #

PD,

Congress is not in session, so if that's his reason then he's going to have to wait until after the election, unless congress calls a special session, for a revised bill to be passed. Which, under the present political climate, seems unlikely, unless as a political stunt, which would likely backfire and not yield a "better" yet still acceptable bill. Dems would view this as a sign of weakness and retreat and demand that the bill be essentially gutted.

In any case, what could he and his legal staff possibly have realized (or what could have happened) after the bill was passed that they had not thought of (or that hadn't occured) before it was passed that convinced him that it would be a bad idea to sign it? Could the reality of what he was about to sign into law have finally hit home once it actually became signable? I'm not so sure, as this bunch isn't known for losing heart. They have a proven MO of leaping headlong over cliffs without looking first. Part of their whole "bold" image and all.

Of course, there are all sorts of possibilities that could explain this, some of them having to do with developments that we're not yet privy to. Who knows what's been going on behind the scenes these past few weeks. Hopefully, we'll soon find out.

And, getting back for a moment to my CT track, I was watching TV tonight and a trailer came on for an upcoming movie, Flags of Our Fathers, which is about the Iwo Jima invasion. In it Jack Nicholson plays an officer who describes the immensity of the naval fleet involved in the invasion, and an image is shown of hundreds of ships steaming ahead in parallel lanes. It came across as a very traditional "patriotic" sort of war film, that would likely appeal to Bush supporters.

At the end of the trailer, the announcer says that it would be released into theaters on October 20th, just over two weeks before the election and the day before a real major naval fleet is due to arrive in the Persian Gulf. Hmm...

Btw, here's the defintion of a pocket veto on the CSPAN web site:

A Pocket Veto is when the President fails to sign a bill within the 10 days allowed by the Constitution. Congress must be in adjournment in order for a pocket veto to take effect. If Congress is in session and the president fails to sign the bill, it becomes law without his signature.

If I'm understanding this correctly, then according to this description, if Bush hasn't yet signed it, then this bill might have already either become law, or else been vetoed by default, depending on when congress adjourned. (I now wonder, could he have signed it secretly, or is that not allowable?)
Kovie | 10.11.06 - 4:11 am | #

SHOCK AND AWE: 650,000 or more Iraqi deaths in the war, more than 20 times the 30,000 figure given by President Bush about a year ago. The new estimate is in the WSJ and the WaPo and the NYT, and possibly other papers, and is based on an epidemiological study to be published in "The Lancet" on Saturday 10/14. The survey attributes about 30% of the deaths to action by U.S. and allied forces.

http://nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Iraqi-Death- Toll.html?pagewanted=print

http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/ 2006/10/10/AR2006101001442_pf.html

The reason for doing an epidemiological study is that official figures from Iraq are demonstrably wrong. City morgues are patrolled by death squads. Cemeteries are attacked by death squads. Many bodies are unclaimed, because claiming a body can get you killed. Many burials are done in yards or basements, because having a funeral for your dear departed can get you killed.

Dr. Thomas Sowell wrote, yesterday, "Those who discuss the current war in terms of frivolous talking points make a big deal out of the fact we have been in this war longer than in World War II. But, if we are serious, we would know that it is not the duration of a war that is crucial. It is how many lives it costs."
sysprog | 10.11.06 - 4:25 am | #

The Military Commissions Act is scheduled to be signed by the president on Tuesday, October 17th. The Center for Constitutional Rights will be there to protest it. I urge all of you to do the same.
Stephen Premo | 10.11.06 - 4:33 am | #

The Military Commissions Act is scheduled to be signed by the president on Tuesday, October 17th.

Why was Bush able to wait this long to sign it, given the 10 day rule? Did congress officially adjourn on the 7th, effectively "resetting the clock"?

I can't make it to the protest in person, but I will surely be there in spirit.

And this will surely come back to haunt everyone responsible for it, in one form or another, legally, politically, historically and spiritually-on both sides of the aisle.
Kovie | 10.11.06 - 4:41 am | #

"But the account in this story, with the possible exception of the eternally vague "stress positions," is not treatment that I would classify as "torture.""

I was struck by the photos of the prisoners in Guantanamo, kneeling down in their masks and jumpsuits. I noted that they were sitting in a position known in Japanese martial arts as "Seiza". This is kneeling down with the feet under the bottom. I noted that several of them were sagging and one was being pushed back up.

Now, it may not be having your eyeballs put out, but then not leaving any marks for later is part of good torture practice in a relatively open society where you still have to deal with freedom of the press.

I can assure you that sitting in this position hurts, a lot. If you could sit like it for twenty minutes you were doing very well. Most people give up before they reach five minutes the first few times they go into it. The pain in the knees and ankles is equisite, and it just gets worse and worse. Time slows down, you feel the urge to move (but if you do it gets worse), it is hard to endure when you are looking at a clock and you know that you only have a few minutes to go.

If you don't believe me, please, try it. Here is a demo of the position;

http://www.mkzc.org/seiza.jpg

Now, if you have spent years doing it, maybe it gets better (I assume it does because tea ceremonies involve sitting like it), but it isn't a joke to have to sit like this for hours.

I challenge anyone here who thinks "Stress positions, hah!" to get into seiza , facing a blank wall and see how long you stay down there. I bet you can't manage 1/2 hour.

Then try the wall treatment, where you stand flat against a wall and lower your body (still in contact with the wall) until your thighs are perpendicular with the wall. remember to keep your feet against the wall so you look like this;

00
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Bet you can't do it for more than 20 minutes. Bet they have been forcing people to do it for hours.

My advice, if wondering whether something is torture is to try it out. Only then do you have a right to say "Nah, it's not so bad".

And remember that you are trying it of your own free will.
Rafar | 10.11.06 - 4:58 am | #

SHOCK AND AWE [continued] Because of the survey methods, the new estimate ranges from about 425,000 deaths to about 800,000 deaths and a number near 650,000 deaths is considered most probable.

From the Associated Press:

''They're almost certainly way too high,'' said Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic & International Studies in Washington. He criticized the way the estimate was derived and noted that the results were released shortly before the Nov. 7 election.

''This is not analysis, this is politics,'' Cordesman said.

A private group called Iraqi Body Count, for example, says it has recorded about 44,000 to 49,000 civilian Iraqi deaths. But it notes that those totals are based on media reports, which it says probably overlook ''many if not most civilian casualties.''

Speaking of the new study, Burnham said the estimate was much higher than others because it was derived from a house-to-house survey rather than approaches that depend on body counts or media reports.

The work updates an earlier Johns Hopkins study -- that one was released just before the November 2004 presidential election. At the time, the lead researcher, Les Roberts of Hopkins, said the timing was deliberate. Many of the same researchers were involved in the latest estimate.

In terms of taking to the streets -- if, say, Pelosi, Reid, Obama, Dean, Clark, and Edwards (not to mention Kerry and Clinton) came together and asked us to do so, I think we would. Without that, however, there's no institutional coordination, no spark to get the fire lit.
Kimmitt | Homepage | 10.11.06 - 5:51 am | #

From JunkYarkLawDog at 10:09pm:

He deserved a bullet to the head.

How very Stalinist of you.

Padilla should be dead.

And the law be damned?
yankeependragon | 10.11.06 - 6:56 am | #

Nick,

I have a feeling this will get someone to throw the "troll" label out at me again, but I don't know if I consider Padilla's treatment "torture."

Let me do it to you. At the end of 3.5 years, you can tell us. Okay?


As for me, it's clearly torture. It's obvious that it's torture. And anyone who thinks it isn't is eitherly hopelessly niave or just fucking not human.
Moses | 10.11.06 - 7:24 am | #

Stolen because it's true...:

"Failure" =1994-2002 -- Era of Clinton 'Agreed Framework': No plutonium production. All existing plutonium under international inspection. No bomb.

"Success" = 2002-2006 -- Bush Policy Era: Active plutonium production. No international inspections of plutonium stocks. Nuclear warhead detonated.

Face it. They ditched an imperfect but working policy. They replaced it with nothing. Now North Korea is a nuclear state.

Facts hurt. So do nukes.
Moses | 10.11.06 - 7:59 am | #

JunkyardLawDog barks, but do he bite?
Baldie McEagle | 10.11.06 - 8:07 am | #

From Baldie McEagle at 8:07am:

JunkyardLawDog barks, but do he bite?

He can't. His teeth rotted out because he lost his job, his Dental coverage with it, and thanks to the Republicans there was no more public assistance.

There's a lesson in there somewhere.
yankeependragon | 10.11.06 - 9:49 am | #

Nick said:
I think there is a substantive difference to that type of treatment and what Padilla was subjected to.

So? Can torture only be the examples you brought up? Oops, I guess so:

Nick said:
I think the point I am trying to make, and I apologize for not having it entirely thought out yet and maybe pissing some people off here, is that "torture" is a rhetorical word which conjures images of death squads and concentration camps.

No, that's simply what torture conjures up in your mind, but just because you don't consider it torture doesn't mean it's empirically not torture. Other posters have noted that sleep deprivation, extreme temperatures, stress positions, etc. are all considered forms of torture.

You're living in denial, because for some reason you don't want to admit that the United States of America can and will torture its own citizens. Get over it, and deal with it.
cfaller96 | Homepage | 10.11.06 - 11:00 am | #

Hay JYLD, the North Vietnemese tortured John McCain for years. He still seems to be alive.
Jose Padilla | 10.11.06 - 11:38 am | #

As for the "it's not really torture" comments, isolation, sleep deprivation, waterboarding, stress positions, forced drugs and extreme temperatures are techniques that have been developed by our enemies.

It was torture when the Japanese did it, we prosecuted them for war crimes.

It was torture when Stalin did it. We dubbed his nation an "Evil Empire" for it.

It was torture when the North Vietnemese did it. Just ask John McCain.

It was torture when the Khmer Rouge did it. Our own government acknowledges that.

Why is it not torture when we do it?

As for the purpose behind torture, it is not to get intelligence. It is to extract confessions. Confessions are good for propoganda, they are useful in propping up a regimes rationale for restricting liberties and persecuting dissenters and opponents. It is the hallmark of totalitarianism and authoritarian regimes from ancient times up to this very day (c.f. Kazahkstan, North Vietnam, North Korea, Iraq, Syria, et al). So when Bush crows that they've foiled x number of plots and he is keeping people safe and he should be given more and more power to continue to do so, the confessions extracted through torture have served their purpose.
Sinister eyebrow | 10.11.06 - 11:43 am | #

Actually I would like to just pass a little memo to Nick.

Even the Apartheid government in South Africa did not make torture "legal". When people were tortured, it was a crime, when they were tortured to death it was still a crime.

What does that tell you about the maladministration.
LiberalDirk | 10.11.06 - 12:24 pm | #

I guess JYLD believes that John McCain, who was an actual enemy combatant, deserved a bullet in the head. I wonder if Mr. McCain would take kindly to that suggestion.
Rufus | Homepage | 10.11.06 - 1:29 pm | #

I agree totally with the earlier comment by the police officer. They do a dangerous job, based on the enforcement of the law. It is difficult for me to understand why the lesser laws (those codes below the level of the Constitution) apply to all of us, and not to the people in power. These days the endangerment of the fourth amendment proves precisely what she says, except that the Congress (at present) seems to be afraid to carry out the oath they took to defend and support the Constitution, while the police officer puts her very life on the line every day defending and supporting that Constitution. It is my hope, that in a few months, the power of the congress will be radically rebalanced, and the new officials will have the fortitude to defend and support the Constitution from the safety of their desks and offices, while the police officer and others like her are still out there putting their lives on the line in the every day implementation of the laws. I further hope that the people charged with enforcing the laws do not become disillusioned, because then, they say to them selves "I can make more money and live more safely selling real estate," and when that happens, we are lost.
Cynic | 10.11.06 - 1:55 pm | #

"I Can't Believe It's Not Torture"TM
other Lisa | Homepage | 10.11.06 - 2:35 pm | #

Nick:

But I don't find the treatment, as outlined in Padilla's brief, grossly violates my sense of human dignity, and I think it does a disservice to the language and the debate to label such mistreatment "torture." In the same sense that not everyone who expresses an idiotic and authoritarian point of view is a Nazi, not every case of mistreatment of a prisoner is a case of wanton abuse and torture.

On Olberman the other night, he said that Bush has not yet signed the Torture Act of 2006. He had to have this passed right damned now. he could not wait for Congress to read it. No time for dabate. No time to allow an explanation to the citizens of the country what they were losing.
Nope, it was essential that this very important legislation be passed, because the security of the U.S., the world depended on its immediate enactment. And he has been too busy running around bashing Democrats and inciting nuclear war to get his pen out and sign the damned thing.

Which is okay, maybe he'll space it out. Is there a time limit on this?

Conservative slayer - I'm from Manzy (Manzanola, CO).
apishapa | 10.11.06 - 5:29 pm | #

Apishapa, I don't know if it's the last word (and it's a few days old), but see

http://balkin.blogspot.com/2006/...ssions- act.html
GlennB | 10.11.06 - 6:36 pm | #

For what purpose did this torture continue as long as it did? To dislodge information? After a few months, it seems unlikely that there was anything he might be holding back. Absent some good cause, one can only conclude that this man, an American citizen, was tortured by U.S. military authorities solely for the sake of torture.

That is the real risk of this and of passage of the McCain Torture Bill - that torture becomes indiscriminate, routinize, and is soon seen as indispensible.
leveymg | 10.11.06 - 6:55 pm | #

In answer to the questions asked: the Detainee Treatment Act has not yet been signed into law. It has not been officially presented for signature, and there is apparently some indication that Bush wants a big ceremonial signing to integrate with the fall campaign.
aphrael | 10.11.06 - 8:02 pm | #

In tangentally related news, a federal grand jury has returned an indictment for treason against an American member of al-Qaeda.

Why should this be surprising? Because the charge of treason presumes a state of war, and currently there is no state of war — except rhetorically.

Under the Constitution, treason is defined as giving aid and comfort to an enemy of the United States, and "enemy" means a state against which the United States has declared war.

Since the end of World War Two, the US has not declared war against any state. Even the so-called "war on terror" has not featured a literal declaration of war; nor is al-Qaeda a state.

This appears to be an attempt to get a state of war legally presumed without its being actually declared by Congress (the only body authorized to declare war).

More, since the American so charged has not been accused of any act of violence, but only of appearing in propaganda videotapes, there's a real question of how slippery that slope is, and how quickly "treason" might be applied to critics of the Administration — legally, and not just rhetorically as it already has been for the past five years.
 
Raven | Homepage | 10.12.06 - 3:49 am | #

padilla's problem is that he was involved with the false flag op known as okbomb....why he wasn't just assassinated by the state continues to amaze me. i suppose it had something to do with the monarchical tendencies of dauphin george... padilla could just be a prisoner in some amerikan chateau d'if.

the reasons for the extraordinary renditions to overseas prisons, the dissappearances if you will, mostly involve muslims that were recruited by and run by the uk and usa during the balkan wars[bill & tony]. these individuals had to be rounded up and silenced forever. they could never allowed to give testimony at any trial because of the stories that they could tell about uk/usa hiring al-fresco to fight with the kla and other islamic opponents of serbia.

as we speak, i think that some of these relationships are being revealed in a criminal case in england. that is not being reported here. curiously, about the time that case began, rupert discontinued the distribution of his times of london to the usa. and the observer also seems to have disappeared.

still, i find it curious that the bushits just didn't execute these individuals who became detainees in afghanistan. a much simpler, a much quieter solution. after all, i believe that "hit" squads were operated after 9/01 and that some large numbers of muslims who had worked for mi6, cia, dia, mossad, shin bet in the balkan wars were executed.

clearly gitmo was chosen to be a public relations[the tough president]gimmick. it was also intended to "cow" the american public with what could be done to them if they got crossways with the dauphin.

it will take a military coup, now. the voting process has been diebolded. and the demtillians are as thrilled with that mechanism as are the reptillians.
albertchampion | 10.12.06 - 4:27 pm | #

And then, of course, there's George's side of it:


Two years 'til the End, yet Dawn's not unfurled
God in his Place and all reich with the World.

I've tried, how I've tried, with lies and in scorn,
To heed His whisper: "Corrupt and suborn,

Reshape all this land as feudal in mold,
And make highly noble the Corporate Fold."

The tools I was given were ancient, yet bold,
The same long employed by barons of old:

Terror and Fear, sown Division and Shame,
All proved fabulous used in my name.

That I mastered them well I offer as proof
That Wrong is now Right, and Lying is Truth.

The Past I've turned clay, and molded to shape
A tale of History that's but its rape.

And all the Dead lying in wait of Charon
Died not in vain but for Cause of my own

As good sheeple should, for God has decreed
Me the Decider, they, fuel for my leede.

So why are my minions now falling away,
Treacherous scum,in confused disarray?

And over a thing so small and pic'yune
It boggles the mind: Mere Torture's the tune

They're playing on strings while sobbing in pain
Like delicate schoolgirls caught in the rain!

It sure would be funny if not for the gall:
They're "terrists", stupid, not human at all!

And as for the World and quaintness of law,
God says I'm Master... regard me with awe.
Gaia sighs... | 10.12.06 - 5:30 pm | #

Perhaps GW hasn't signed the Bill yet because they are coming up with some outrageous signing statement that will make him look and sound even tougher than the bill (and more inhumane to those of us who give a care).
stephsacitygirl | Homepage | 10.12.06 - 6:22 pm | #

Wouldn't it be convenient if an Iranian-backed atrocity on US soil was foiled at the eleventh hour, on say October 16th?

:-O
ceedee | 10.13.06 - 12:02 am | #

That only disgusts me!
I used to love the United States .. I live there for half a decade, I (more or less) respected the government, I felt good there, very good even!

I do not recognize this country anymore ... how terribly low did it sink!! I believe in "what goes around, comes around" .. if I put this into context, I would NOT want to be at her place!!
Karin | Homepage | 10.13.06 - 1:31 pm | #

Karin,

Glad your gone. Don't come back. We don't need or want you. We have enough brain dead surrender monkeys here of our own, and we don't need to be importing any additional ones.

Says the "Dog"
JYLD | 10.14.06 - 2:19 am | #

Talk about brain dead, surrender monkey is so 2003. Dennis Miller called, he want's his joke back.
Mike | 10.14.06 - 8:07 pm | #

Why can't any you call this Nick guy what he is? Call a heartless man a heartless man.
I was terribly moved to read about Padilla's ordeal. It's freakish that someone could read that and then say that the facts didn't offend his sensibilities!! You all have tiptoed around this cold-blooded person. You should have this denounced this monster, for he lacks a heart.

Padilla at least deserves our compassion if we can not help him through social and political action. Your appropriate outrage has been diffused by this person's presence on your board. You have been successfully infiltrated...

Then they came for me...
Where were you complainers when young African American girls were systematically sterilized because their white doctors, cherishing eugenic values, believed that they did not deserve to reproduce? Where were you when medical care providers mislead their African American patients infected with syphilis to believe they were receiving a cure, when in fact the doctors were merely watching them die? (Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male - http://www.cdc.gov/nchstp/od/tus...kegee/time.htm) Where were you when your fellow African Americans were being lynched in public and tortured by police officers over the years. (Torture Practices of the Chicago police - http://www.hrw.org/reports98/pol...ice/uspo53.htm) Where were you when the report circulated that drugs were being sold in the Black community to finance a war? Now the same sort of drugs threaten all American communities. For years you looked the other way as African Americans languished in communities that were been targeted for drug dumping, landlord abuse, inadequate public services, police brutality and torture, from which they could not scape due to unfair housing practice. As they languished in poverty in a nation they helped to build, no one could convince any of you to hire them. Never hired, never rented or sold to, facing an ocean of drugs flooding the streets of their neighborhoods - thanks to the CIA and organized crime.... For years you all looked the other way as African American males were criminalized in a systematic manner which ensured that they would never be integrated into American society. Now you are all facing the injustice yourselves. None of you will ever be in daner, protected by our race and your class. But it's no fun to live in a totalitarian state, with few civil rights. Now many of you must face the fact that racial privilege can only go so far when it is in competition with capital. Frankly, maybe some of you will begin rethinking your racial alliance and perhaps think of forging alliances based on fairness and humanity.

Te Buddha refers to the benefits available to "those who have accumulated merits and who are gentle and upright," certainly that can never apply to a brutish, vindictive, nation riddled with vices such as racism and hatre. Really we need to overhaul our moral views - do away with discrimination and beginning truly to develop a morally healthy nation.
Vani | 10.15.06 - 7:26 pm | #

Take a look - http://www.pinknoiz.com/covert/ c...contracoke.html.
Let's clean this nation up
Vani | 10.15.06 - 7:34 pm | #

You are damned right, Ryan. This is NOT the country I once knew, nor is it the one in which I was raised. And that is completely NOT OK with me. I want my country back, I demand it be returned and THAT'S a demand I am willing to die for. We've all been hijacked and I for one am willing to stand and fight for America, right here on American soil!
siri
Cortez, CO
siri | 11.09.06 - 12:17 pm | #

I'd have figured all those red state, pro militarism guys would have reflexively rejected this "guilty until proven innocent" Napoleonic Code tripe simply because it was French... ;)
ilcylic | 11.09.06 - 1:39 pm | #

There is the USA of the people, and a USA of the elites.
Rich | 11.09.06 - 2:19 pm | #

Makes me sick reading some comments in which people say "I don't think it's a tourture"... All I can say - I'd like to see these morons in this situation and then hear their idea of what has happened..

States are sooooo far from being a democracy and a country of law that it's not even funny.. It's getting worse than socialist countries in the last century.. And I'm sad that most Americans are still so dumb and ingnorant that they don't want to open their eyes while it's not too late.. And it's getting close to be too late..
Alex | 11.09.06 - 6:39 pm | #

My personal opinion is that the gov't did this to Padilla for a show of "power". They made an "example" of him. Don't mess with us, or this is what you'll get, SCUM! They ran roughshod over Padilla's rights just like they ran over Iraq, just like they ran over the Constitution in regard to the Patriot Act and wiretapping, just like they did with giving themselves and their "base" huge taxcuts, just like they did with MANY things; Padilla just "got in the way" of their loco express... Let's face it, with control of the Executive, Legislative and even the Judicial branches of goverment, the neocons went absolutely mad with power and spun totally out of control. This just shows their true colors and true agenda... Thank god the young people got out and voted this election! Of couse, I would too with a war raging and a draft looming...
sin_bad | 11.09.06 - 7:15 pm | #

I thank God that there are such people as Glenn in America. As a British citizen (hah!), it constantly dismays me to see that on one hand Americans fiercely defend their constitution (and rightly so, it is in principle a Good Thing), and yet allow their government to steal it, corrupt it, or ignore it and act as the playground bully in international affairs. Even more sickening is their (the gummint) claim of the moral high ground when 'enforcing' democracy by extreme force, when their morals have been completely eroded.

To quote Scott Adams (of Dilbert fame):
Then during the period between the election and the impending Rapture, that traditionally elected President will get busy protecting the lives of stem cells while finding creative ways to blow the living crap out of anything that has the audacity to grow up and turn brownish.
WaveyDavey | 11.10.06 - 7:09 am | #

Now that the elections are over, we shall see what the spineless, supine Dems do about this abomination of a false Presidential Administration. I am not optimistic at all in that regard, but I do think that what follows afterwards will define ALL of the authentic war criminals and ALL of them in both parties will finally be carted off and hanged until dead for war crime. Both parties--all of them--ALL who signed onto the Iraq War--are guilty guilty guilty of mass murder and WILL BE HANGED UNTIL DEAD FOR THEIR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, OVER AND OUT.
tummyknocker | 11.12.06 - 4:16 pm | #

It makes no difference if he is innocent or guilty, uncharged or convicted. Torture and maltreatment are ALWAYS WRONG!!! period.
mamosa | 11.13.06 - 4:33 am | #

Diane the Law enforcement officer, thankyou for your views.

This rabbit has been in the situation of being incarcerated without trial while innocent, for a whole year, and despite many reprehensible things, a lot of corruption and some abuses the experience was benign compared with what Padilla has sufferred.

Any sort of deprivation of liberty of human beings (or other creatures) is a terrible and degrading experience for the victim. Judging the severity of treatment is on a sliding scale, and I'm saying that what is acceptable is theoretically the limit of what is fair.

Padilla's treatment was more than just rough or unfair it easily can be called torture. I reject any suggestion that the boundaries of what is acceptable and what else constitutes unduly harsh treatment or even torture be moved beyond what was already considered the limits of treatment to be meted out legally to convicted criminals. Even that much should be byond the pale if applied to a person who has not been duly found guilty of a crime at least first.
Rabbit | Homepage | 11.13.06 - 4:53 am | #

I don't know whether to laugh or cry listening to you guys, but you are going to love me..!

I acted as the analyst on the original interrogation team assigned to Jose during his first several months of detainment. I wrote command briefs for the White House Briefing Room as well as fielded questions from Sec's Rumsfeld and Ashcroft regarding the progress of his debriefing. Every major Network, Publisher, and Alphabet Agency in the country has plagiarized my anonymous work. I have additionally kept close tabs on the progress of his interrogation since.

All of you with the tear stained faces over his "torture" need to consider your sources. I know for a fact the type of treatment he was subjected to. I can tell you he was treated more gently than we treat our own boys during Special Forces training. For all of you who instantly cry that it's no excuse, know the truth... Jose had already been sentenced to death in absentia in Egypt. If we had chosen to release him without charge, you cannot even fathom the treatment this poor little conspirator against your country would have endured.

Further, you all discount the lesson we learned from Zacarias Moussaoui. Would you have traded Moussaoui's comfort for even one life on 9/11? How about two or ten or a thousand..? If it was your responsibility, if you were faced with the reality of pursuing information from a known terrorist actively involved in a plot to kill Americans, what tactics would you employ to save innocent lives? What tactics would you discard?

Oh yes, and all of you who insist comparing Padilla to Christ need to give it a rest. Atheism is no excuse for such gross ignorance of the religion that has shaped the modern world. The whole point of Christianity is that Jesus was the Lamb of God. His INNOCENT blood was poured out for our redemption. Whether or not you believe he was the Son of God (and I do) you can neither deny that he was tortured and killed, nor that Pilot himself declared him innocent.

I don't know what prompted me to respond to any of your nonsense, I don't believe for a second that I will change anyone's mind. I suppose I was overwhelmed with heartache in the knowledge that you are the offspring of the courageous men who fought a World War just two generations ago.

Fear not, while you stand frozen in self-doubt and quivering under the strain of pondering your own humanity, some of us remain steadfast. Like my forefathers and brothers and sisters in arms, I will instead stand ready. Ready to pick up a rifle (or a phone tap) and gladly mortgage my life to purchase your right to spawn one more generation of whimpering souls. After all, isn’t this that destiny of all civilizations? Once removed long enough from the proximity of danger the weak will either breed or "educate" the strong into the minority. At which point we commence to sink into obscurity. Look at our neighbors in Europe. The mice merely laugh at the ridiculous posturing of a cat without claws. Until then, however, occasions for action belong to people like me. They belong to men and women willing accept the mantle of making decisions that protect those unable, unwilling, and undeserving alike. We know that when the threat passes and the dust settles you will once again emerge from your hovels, shaking your fists angrily in the air and demand an account for the manner in which we protected you. You will return to your positions at universities, appropriately sheltered from any form or reality. You will continue teaching the children too poorly armed to mount an argument against you that we were wrong. So please, carry on your scholarly conversation with confidence. Be assured that when the moment arises once more for scholars to be still and soldiers to rise, we will.
Wagon Repairman | 11.14.06 - 12:48 pm | #

Wagon Repairman with cohorts like you, WHO NEEDS ENEMIES?

I serve, but I refuse to become a monster in the pursuit, capture and prosecution of monsters.
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iacopetta | Homepage | 12.26.06 - 5:43 pm | #

Fire the liars & jail the torturers & the whole bunch of the war criminal Cheney/Bush/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz/Rice administration.
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I don't care what difinition one might find for torture, this was torture. Those who say it is not, what would you say if it was a close relative? I bet you would change your mind. This will have permanent damage on the mental state and possible physical for the rest of this persons life.

I am sick of this mess that has taken control of our country and in 2008, I hope that who we elect can reverse these laws to restore our freedoms to where this can not hapen again. If we allow this to continue, then none of us are safe.
Lee Fisher | Homepage | 12.26.07 - 9:37 am | #

abuse, torture...same thing
kim | 06.14.08 - 11:58 pm | #