First time commenter... long time reader. Big fan of the blog. However, in the middle of a seemingly otherwise sane column I read this paragraph:
"Second, we need to get rid of the guys who would be considered in the "best" group of coaches. Urban Meyer (although a trained monkey could win nine games at Florida every year, but he has won big everywhere he’s been) and Nick Saban headline this group, and I think you have to throw in Houston Nutt on the level right below them. He's not Saban or Meyer and you can argue his SEC record of 47-41 is pretty mediocre, but my overall impression of his work at Arkansas, a state with little high school football talent, was he always did more with less. Eight bowl games and two trips to Atlanta. Plus, what he did with Ole Miss last year really strengthens his case to be considered in the top tiers and thus eliminated from mediocrity."
I understand that with my degree being from MSU, my last name, and my dislike for Houston Nutt from my high school days in Fayetteville... you may think this is personal. But that is not the case. It is unbelievable to consider Houston in the "top-tier" of SEC coaches.
84-52 overall record, 47-41 in the SEC. Not bad, SEC record seems slightly mediocre.
29-20 SEC West record. 12-20 SEC East record. 0-5 verse Georgia (including a 30-3 loss in SEC Championship game). 2-5 verse Tennessee. 0-2 in SEC Championship games. 3-5 in Bowl games (including 0-3 verse Big Ten. Wow). 0-2 verse Southern Cal (with a total score of 120-31).
Seems like Houston kept his job by normally beating Mississippi schools, yearly game with South Carolina, and the 3-4 cupcakes he'd play plus splitting with Auburn and Alabama every year. Also, I don't know if Arkansas' recruiting base is as bad as Houston loved to publicize. I admit that Arkansas high school football is weak compared to Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, etc. But if you can fence in your state's top players (which Houston never could do) and take your pick from Missouri, Oklahoma, Kansas and battle in places like Texas and Memphis - you should consistently be in the nation's top 15. I think Petrino will prove that.
Just saying - think Houston should have been up for this award.
I probably shouldn't have glossed over Houston Nutt the way I did (and should have done a better job clearly separating him from Saban and Meyer), but there's no way he could be thrown in with the Brooks, Spurrier and Richt. In the previous eight season before his arrival (1990-97), Arkansas football was crap. Absolute crap. They were 38-51 in that time with only 19 SEC wins since '92 when they joined the league. That comes out to 4.75 wins per year and a little over 3 conference wins a year.
Much like Spurrier and Brooks, Nutt wasn't exactly walking into a an ideal situation (and you could argue only Brooks had it worse when he took over his program). However, unlike Spurrier and Brooks, he won right away, winning a share of the SEC West title in '98 and in his years at Arkansas saw the kind of success neither of those two have seen. He went to more bowl games that any other SEC West coach during those 10 years, had 53 home wins (second in the SEC) and produced four 9-win seasons, including one 10-win season.
I wrote that Mark Richt was 5-8 against LSU and Florida. Each time they played, his Georgia teams and both LSU and Florida were ranked. Houston Nutt has the same 5-8 record versus the top FIVE and all five of his wins came when his team wasn't ranked (and four of those wins were on the road). Switch Richt and Nutt and I find it hard to believe Richt could do the same at Arkansas.
And finally (mercifully), I agree that Nutt probably played up the lack of talent in Arkansas, but according to this list (http://tinyurl.com/kmyyfj) from a 2006 Wall Street Journal article which tried to determine where all the NFL talent comes from, the state of Arkansas comes in ahead of only Tennessee in the SEC as far as NFL players go. I know that's not an exactly accurate way to measure talent in a state, (I'm not sure there is a really good way), but I think it's a good attempt. He wasn't as poor as he probably thought he was, but he was certainly behind all the others. And picking up the scraps from Oklahoma, Missouri and Kansas (after OU and Texas have gone through there) doesn't strike me as a good way to feed your talent.
So after all that, there's my reasoning for not including Nutt in the final three. Obviously, he's not all-world but he's well-above mediocre.
I like some disagreement coming back to belly of the beast. Who can forget the David Cutcliffe banter that went on. We need more of this.
I'm going to side a little bit with the author of the beast. The guy seemed to find ways to win. Sure, he lost some games he should have won, but he also rarely underachieved. Maybe one could say he should have ramped up expectations during his team, but year in year out, he beat teams more talented than his in Arkansas.
However, I will give a point to Felker for pointing out Nutt was 0-3 verse Big 10 teams. yikes.
The recruiting is the question mark on Nutt. With the new SEC ruling, he won't be able to sign 43 players next year. It will be interesting to see how it plays out over the next few years with Nutt.
As far as putting a fence around Arkansas. Only Orgeron can put fences around cities.
I agree with you that Arkansas had its struggles overall in the years before Houston arrived. However, Arkansas did win the West and go to the SEC Championship in 1995 – two years before Houston took over. As far as I remember, Houston inherited a program that didn’t win a lot in the 96, 97 seasons but it wasn’t because of the talent. Perhaps similar to Houston inheriting a team with plenty of talent that couldn't win in Oxford. So, yes, the 1990's weren't good to Arkansas but I wouldn't say that his talent level in 1998 was crap. You are right in giving him credit for turning it around and turning it around quick. But I bet that Georgia, South Carolina, or Kentucky didn't go to the SEC Championship game 2 years before those respective head coaches arrived.
Richt took over a Georgia program after consecutive 8-win seasons. But when Richt took over, Florida, Tennessee owned Georgia players. For example, Jamaal Lewis from Atlanta. You said that Houston produced four 9-win seasons and one 10-win season in 10 years. Let’s compare that to Mark Richt’s last FIVE years: one 11-win season, three 10-win seasons, and one 9-win season. So if you want the Mediocre award to go to whatever top-tier program has struggled with Florida and LSU as of late… then Richt is your guy. But besides that, he has done pretty well.
I wasn't intending to argue that the state of Arkansas has better high school football than any of the other southern states. It is pretty bad - I saw it first hand. It would possibly be comparable to Kentucky or maybe Tennessee (that might be a stretch). What I was intending to argue was that it is a lot easier to recruit to Fayetteville than everyone thinks. I think Petrino proved that in just one year. Following a 5-7 season, Petrino recruited the 16th ranked class in the nation (16th by rivals, 20th by scout). That is better than any Houston Nutt recruiting class in 10 years! And that is, I repeat, after a 5-7 season and a head coach that the media can't stand in Petrino. Maybe Fayetteville isn't that hard of a sell.
And maybe recruiting should factor into the argument, as well. Houston is known for the coach that "does more with less." If Houston was consistently getting 16th ranked (or better) recruiting classes then he wouldn't conveniently be able to live up to that billing. Richt repeatedly gets top-10 ranked classes and wins on average 10 games a year. Houston gets classes in the mid-to-late 20's and wins on average 7-8 games a year. Doesn't sound like that much of a difference to me.
Also, I personally don’t think the rankings really matter in victories over Florida and LSU. You wouldn’t say that Croom is a better coach than Tuberville when they both beat Alabama but just because Croom pulled an upset with an unranked team in both '06 and '07. Seems to me that it would mean that Auburn proved that they deserved the ranking in other games, unlike Miss. State. I guess your point was that Georgia is consisten
Fair enough. My point about Georgia was that Richt beats usually beats the teams with less talent and resources than his, but can't beat anyone on his level even though he has access to all the talent and resources they do. And those two teams happen to be LSU and Florida. No other schools in the SEC (and very few in the whole country) have what those three have: great talent at home, huge stadiums, huge alumni base, THE school in the state (although Florida has two other big schools, but the state is so big and has so much talent it doesn't really affect them), great national reputations and good facilities. I'm not saying he's a bad coach because he does beat who he should. But good coaches can win games against equal opponents and he hasn't done that, which makes him pretty average in my book.
A question for you, out of LSU, Florida and I'll throw in Alabama, do you think Georgia will win the SEC championship before any of those three teams combine for at least two titles (meaning LSU could win one and Florida one to get to two, or one team could win two)?
Point noted. And I understand what you are saying - it was a good point in the original post. Richt may very well be the most mediocre coach in the SEC. My main point is that Houston should at least be in the conversation with that trifector of Brooks, Spurrier, and Richt.
Good question. Richt has been at Georgia 7 years. In those 7 years he has 2 SEC titles, 3 SEC East titles, 3 BCS Games, and 5 top-10 finishes. His 2 SEC titles in 7 years means that he wins one every 3.5 years. I'd say that Georgia's best chance in the near future would be in 2010 after Tebow graduates, and I think that would be very possible. I would put Richt ahead of Les Miles and below Saban and Meyer - and I think the next few years will reflect that with LSU taking a step back. To answer your question, it could go either way but I am going to continue to defend Richt (in order to propel Houston to most mediocre) and say that Georgia wins before the other 3 schools win 2. You heard it here first.
Okay, sorry, after talking to my good friend, (and Georgia fan) Sam Taaffe, I had to post again. You said that Mark Richt is 5-8 against Florida and LSU. This is true. But more revealing is that he is 2-6 against Florida.
Richt is actually 3-2 against LSU with the only 2 loses coming in LSU's 2003 national championship season (only Richt's third year on the job-lost in the regular season and SEC Championship game). In the last three games between Georgia and LSU - Georgia has not just won... but won big - with the scores 45-16 (2004); 34-14 (2005);52-38 (this past year). Thus, the last three games Richt has won by a combined score of 131-68.
You said, "good coaches win against equal opponents and he hasn't done that." He definitely has done that against LSU. Richt actually has a winning record against every single SEC team besides Florida. Which means, in my book, he can only get the most mediocre award if the award goes to the top program that consistently can't beat Florida. Which then should include the rest of the top programs in the SEC.
I mentioned that:
"And of course there are the head-to-head records. Against LSU and Florida, Richt has gone a combined 5-8, which includes an awful 2-6 against Florida. Yes, he does have a winning record against LSU, 3-2, but take away his wins over the overwhelmed Les Miles and he’s just 1-2 (to his credit he has never lost to Les Miles) against the Tigers."
Despite his 3-2 record against LSU, he has not accomplished what two coaches have done there while he's been at Georgia: Won a national championship. He has not, and I'll say will not, used the same resources in the way LSU and Florida have.
And to answer my earlier question, I say he'll never win another SEC Championship. Once LSU rids itself of Les Miles and puts some effort into its next coaching search, there will potentially be 3 schools that can match Georgia for resources and have better coaches: LSU, Alabama and Florida. He's not good enough to get by that group.
It's good to have discussion back in the mix. Unfortunately, David Cutcliffe isn't still around to take home the mediocrity cake.
If I tried this idea during his time at Ole Miss, he wouldn't have even been considered. He most certainly would have fallen in the "worst" category.
Okay, two main responses.
First: Mark Richt. You say that "Despite his 3-2 record against LSU, he has not accomplished what two coaches have done there while he's been at Georgia: Won a national championship." It sounds like, according to your reasoning, that Richt is "the most mediocre coach in the SEC" because he has the resources to win a national championship... but he hasn't won a national championship. Okay, there are maybe 10-15 teams that have the 'resources' to win it all: Southern Cal, OU, Alabama, Texas, Florida, Florida State, Ohio State, Michigan, LSU, Tennessee, Georgia, etc. He has won the SEC twice in 7 years, 3 SEC East titles, gone to 3 BCS games, and five top-10 finishes in his seven years at Georgia. I just think that the stakes are a little too high for what is coined "mediocre." All that he hasn't done is consistently beat Florida or won a national championship, thus, he is the most mediocre. Just saying that we may have different understandings of the term.
Next: Houston Nutt. I still think he should be in the conversation for/if not the most mediocre. If you take these coaches last four seasons at their respective head coaching positions (in the case of Nutt - his previous position) then the results are pretty interesting. Steve Spurrier won 28 games (2005-200
. Rich Brooks won 27 games (2005-200. Mark Richt won 40 games (2005-200. Houston Nutt won 27 games (2004-2007).
Arkansas is not Georgia. I understand that. But I'd put it ahead of Kentucky as far as resources and at least on the same playing field as South Carolina (if not above). So Houston actually did less in his last four years at Arkansas than Steve Spurrier (this while Spurrier is competing in the East - we'll save that for another argument) and the same as Brooks. Also, Brooks was 3-0 in these bowl games; Houston was 0-2.
Just some more thoughts.
Thank you Brian and Gray for bringing in David Cutcliffe to this discussion, even if he wouldn't be considered mediocre, b/c he is worst. Whenever terrible coaching is mentioned and doing less with more, he should always be at the top of the list.
As far as Nutt's last few years at Arkansas, I think you have to take those with a grain of salt. Everything changed with Nutt and Arkansas after the Springdale debacle. David, you probably know more about this than any of us, but my perception is that he had no chance once the Springdale episode divided the state.
On a related note, good to see Mitch Mustain will end his college career carrying that clipboard at USC.
In my mind, Nutt proved that he can recurit with last year's signing class.
Here's a question Felker and I were pondering the other day. How much different do you think Ole Miss's season would have been if Orgeron were still around last year.
I know alot of people are really pumping Houston up as this top-tier coach (in my opinion) strictly off of what he did last year. Had he not done that at Ole Miss last year, he would DEFINATELY be in the conversation for most mediocre coach.
Point being, what was so different about Ole Miss last year than the season before? Basically the same players, EXCEPT Jevan Snead. The offense didn't look that different to me other than Snead. You still used McCluster in pretty much the same way that the Hummer spokesman did. The difference was Jevan Snead. Not Houston Nutt, not Enrique Davis, not the lack of Orgeron (although I should point out that Nutt is a huge upgrade).
So who who got those players there? It was Orgeron. Snead is the best present any football coach could ever wish for. Second best present would be maybe a 1st Round offensive tackle and defensive tackle. Wait, he got those also.
The conclusion I have come to is this. Nutt is a good coach, maybe above mediocre. Arkansas may have had some excellent years had the Springdale debacle not happened, BUT IT DID. That is not the sign of a "top-tier" coach, to let sex-messaging and gossip about possibly the best quarterback in school history, to send your program into a tail spin that eventually led to your dismissal.
Ole Miss had a great season last year because of Snead. Jerry and Oher can be added to that. Ole Miss will have another great season because those guys set the tone of Ole Miss football for this up-coming season.
While I appreciate Toasts points about Snead, Jerry and Oher, I have to disagree a little bit. Of course having those guys was huge. But if Orgeron had been there...no way it would have been the same. Let's not forget that same team minus Snead did not win a single SEC game under Orgeron the year before. Snead is good, but he ain't that good. Coaching had to have something to do with it, and when your players don't even like you...it's a problem.
Just to comment on Mark's previous post. You said, "he [Nutt] had no chance once the Springdale episode divided the state."
The Springdale episode occurred in the spring after the 3rd year that I was counting. His fourth and last year was one of his best year at Arkansas, beating LSU and going to the Cotton Bowl (this with two 1st-rounders in the backfield - McFadden and Felix Jones). So he only 'dealt' with the Springdale stuff his last year at Arkansas and is therefore essentially irrelevant in this conversation.
Besides that, Houston had a pretty major role in all that went down with the Springdale crew. I mean, you wouldn't say that Mike Price is a good coach but he loved going to strip clubs. Or that Mark Richt would have had a great season this past year but had 10+ ACL surgeries. Or that Ron Zook was a solid recruiter but couldn't win enough games. All that is part of it. On the field coaching, off the field recruiting, and maintaining the program - it has to all come into the conversation.
Exactly, no mediocre coach could pull off such a great season amidst all the Springdale stuff
So an 8-5 season, 4-4 in the SEC, 3rd in the West... with two 1st-round draft picks in your backfield is a "great season"?
Brian..3 years ago State won only 3 games as well...the following year we win 8..same coaching staff, same players...the only difference in those teams was we didn't play fur boy Henig, we played a D-III QB that just didn't make mistakes, and had a defense that gave us confidence that we could win the close games...I think everyone will agree that to make any noise in the SEC you have got to have a quality QB...JP Wilson may be the exception but the dude has every record in Alabama history...when you have a legit quarterback, it just makes everyone on the team more confident..how good would Ole Miss have been with Henig @ QB last year...3 or 4 games worse i would say...not much different than the previous year...You guys saw what happens when Snead is playing like Henig last year, the Vandy game @ home...i think that should rest my case on just how valuable Snead was last year... people are giving Nutt WAY to much credit for last year
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