Epistles from the Apostles
I can't believe I got to post here before someone called you anti-semitic.
Well done, THR.
This needs to be told.
The US and Israel are the 2 most distrusted and under scrutinised nations on this planet. When are the media, especially the US media going to tell it like it really is. How hard can it be - Israel is not defending itself, Palestine is. How can Israel defend itself when they are in someone else's country?
The loony racists from AWH, Midnight Sun etc. disgust me. They are just as much part of the problem.
Yes, I've also noticed that wicked Jew-in-chief Olmert "invokes spurious security arguments"
After all, for Israelis there are ...
NO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A...h?
v=AJfE0MtQeGI
SECURITY:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=_...feature=related
CONCERNS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=B...feature=related
WHATSOEVER:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=u...feature=related
None at all ........
Meanwhile, Lygo lauds lack of anti-semitic labelling. Now he'll be off to liberally throw around "Islamaphobe" at the nearest Conservative he can find.
You sound like a US nightly news transcript.
Where's the war crimes comparisons, the numerous breaches of UN resolutions, the illegal occupation, illegal settlements, constant tyranny, ripping down of people's homes, armed booby traps, F18 attacks on civilians, curfews for over 30% of the year, ripping up of crops ...
If you bothered with an opinion why not bother with reading something apart from News Ltd trash or the Washington Post.
Excellent Post THR.
All I can add to this stimulating debate is this:
http://www.iffco.com/.%5Cproduct...-joos-app-
l.jpg
Yes, I am an intellectual.
Terry Wright,
I live in Australia. We do not so slavishly look upon ourselves in such a narrow-minded, insular fashion as do Americans.
We are taught from a young age to interrogate the facts and investigate. Moreover, you having presumably swallowed tripe from your domestic media for so long, and me having lived in the region, learnt the language, culture and most importantly the mindset, means that I see the facts as follows:
-Israel has not breached a single binding UN Resolution.
Find me a single one, please. I dare you. List it.
They are all non-binding, which means they are RECOMMENDATIONS. Chapter VI.
That means they are NOT passed into law.
Only Security Council Chapter VII (binding) are Resolutions.
And the only Resolution pertaining to Israel is 242, and even then it does not call for a withdrawal from all of the Disputed Territories:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
UN_..._interpretation
Notice the wording? The UN Security Council deliberately did not use "all" .
Which means it's up for negotiation, such as the proposal for a land swap as per the UN sponsored Road Map.
What's with the Judenrein wishes anyway? Arabs are allowed to live in Israel, but a future Palestinian state in the West Bank must be cleared of all Jews???
Disgusting. Coming from the Left, even more so.
-Israel does not own or operate F-18 fighter planes. But it does use F-16 planes to laser target those who plan the disptaching of homicide bombers.
Like in the links above.
I'm sure your compassion is seeping onto your keyboard. I have no doubt.
- Constant tyranny is living with just 15 seconds warning to get your loved ones into a bunker before the next rocket from the fascist theocrats of Hamas lands in the kids room:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0...h?
v=0veAvX0m8zo
-Settlements, according to their location, are due to be either:
*Included in the land swap as endorsed by the UN Road Map
*Come down in accordance with a dismantlement of the terror infrastructure as per Phase I of the UNITED NATIONS endorsed Road Map:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Roa...r_peace#Process
The Revolutiion's over buddy. Marxist-Leninism failed. Get over it, and quit fighting this war through that prism of political garbage.
NOG, I think part of the tension here is between particular interests and universal morality. For this reason, it is moot to cite that lack of binding UN resolutions that Israel has broken: the reason such resolutions do not exist is that they are always vetoed by the US.
What's with the Judenrein wishes anyway? Arabs are allowed to live in Israel, but a future Palestinian state in the West Bank must be cleared of all Jews???
I think you'll find that it's actually a lunatic fringe within Israel (and the US) who are actually calling for 'shoah' against the Arabs in the region. I don't think anybody on the left side of politics would advocate the removal of Jews from the region.
But it does use F-16 planes to laser target those who plan the disptaching of homicide bombers.
Let's be a little more precise about the facts, NOG. Israel practices targeted assassination and 'extrajudicial execxution' of anybody it calls a terrorist. This often involves the killing of women and children, many of whom have perished at Israeli hands. This isn't precisely the same as some kiind of 'self-defense' based on the 'security' reasons you claim.
Finally, if you've been reading the news, you'll see that Hamas have been relatively well-behaved of late, and that whilst there are still ocassional rockets fired into Israel, they are few in number, and from fringe groups. The notion of 'terrorist infrastructure' is a crock, a pretence to continue the occupation, and the expansion of Israeli settlements. One doesn't need to be 'Marxist-Leninist' to see this.
NOG, as you can see, all your examples are crap.
I made one mistake, F18s instead of F16s.
THR is totally right in that over 30 draft resolutions have been vetoed by the US since 1972 involving condemnation or critical views of Israel. They usually involve recommendations like sending a U.N. mission to examine Israeli abuse of Palestinians in the occupied territories.
Arabs are allowed to live in Israel, but a future Palestinian state in the West Bank must be cleared of all Jews
You left the middle and main part out - Tens of thousands of Israelis living on Palestinian land with NO arabs allowed. I am surprised you didn't call the illegal settlements, Israeli neighbourhoods.
You can brandish your cherry picked info as much as you want but most of this planet condemn Israel just as much as Palestine. It's only those who are racists, neocons, US/Israeli apologists, the religious right and bucketheads who deny the facts.
BTW, I have never read one single writing from Marx or Lenin. Your suggestion that anyone who criticises Israel is an ultra lefty Marxists fighting a revolution is just standard rhetoric from the mixed up modern right. The right are a legitimate part of politics and society but the modern right seems to be christian extremists hiding under RW politics as an excuse to spill hate on those foreign to them, usually muslims, whether Arab or not.
Terry Wright,
You can add whatever name calling your dear heart desires to those who support Israel.
As somebody who has far more experience than you in:
-Speaking the language
-Knowing the culture/mindset
-Studying the region
-Actually setting foot in the region (lived, to be accurate)
.... I am perfectly well relxaed in the knowledge that the reason I support Israel is because of my ethics and humanity. You see, I support the most progressive state in the region. And so do most other democracies in the world. You can stick with the despicable despots and tyrants of the Non-Aligned Movement (NAM) who vote as a block at the UN against Israel.
They're all yours. Take a look at the list of states that make up this rag tag bunch of dictators.
I'll stick with Israel's democratic supporters.
Yes, I'll stick with the only state in the Mid-East where you will find this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=O...feature=related
... for example.
Yes, you can call me Left, Right, apologist (very true), whatever you like. I support the most liberal, progressive state in the Middle-East, and am very proud of both it and its gay parades.
You can support the ultra-Conservatives of Hamas that rule Palestinians. That makes you a right-wing sympathiser.
And a hyporcrite.
I'd suggest you start by switching off your daily 30 sec slot from SBS World News and actually SPEAK to an Israeli, perhaps for the first time in your life. Learn about their dreams and hopes as well. It will stand you in high stead and remove some of that demonising that you've been accustomed to.
This often happens when you never meet an opposing player, or only subject yourself to one side.
It's called brainwashing in extreme cases.
As for your comments:
"You left the middle and main part out - Tens of thousands of Israelis living on Palestinian land with NO arabs allowed. I am surprised you didn't call the illegal settlements, Israeli neighbourhoods."
Wha.....?
If you're referring to Arabs on Israeli land, there are 1 million Arabs living in Israel.
If you're referring to Israeli settlers, the largest settlement block will stay, with the future Palestinian state being granted the equivalent amount of land from what is current Israeli land today. They will have equal land to make up for any settlements that aren't disbanded (ie .... Ariel)
Get with the program.
Terry Wright, you made plenty of mistakes. Pointing out F-16's over F-18's was but the simplest one, for me to poke a laugh.
THR,
Universal morality is the very reason why I support the state of Israel.
In line with your desire to invoke an apparently new trend that sees it permissable to accuse Israel of breaching Resolutions that never were, I'm still trying to get my head around this:
The Resolutions can fail, .... AND you can still accuse them of violating it!
So by your reckoning, every single UN Resolution that has failed to pass over the last 60 odd years of the UN body, is, well, ... valid??
After all, China vetos sending UN peacekeepers to help genocide victims in Darfur because of its oil purchases from Sudan.
But even though this failed, I hereby declare that Sudan is now in breach of UN Security Council Resolutions.
That's outrageous. The workings and processes of the body deemed the Resolutions to fail, yet they can still be considered binding?? Do you apply this to anybody else, or just the Jewish state?
So you can now condemn Israel for what the United Nations HAS passed as much as for what it HASN'T passed??
LOL, seriously dude, nobody would buy that.
So in your book, I only need to raise a motion, not actually get it passed within the rules of the body, in order for ME to consider it "passed". Why don’t you try that at your next work meeting. See how you go. What an injustice.
What next. A Court of law finds somebody Not Guilty, but hey, we all "just knew" he's guilty, so let's just "say" he is??
Israel is not in breach of a single binding UN Resolution because the United States is also entitled to make decisions based upon what it, I, and millions of other people see as ethical. And if the US vetoed it, then I must not only thank the United States but also recognise that it is because of its moral stance which sees us today with ZERO Resolutions against Israel, whose cause I find subscribes to my ethics. And I give charity, I help my fellow man, I also have feelings of empathy.
I am also allowed to see decisions at the UN (American made) as moral. But they don't have to equal your ideas.
It's not a "moot point" just because it suits your "morality".
My "morality" is the very reason why I support Israel.
The record vindicates me 100% when pointing out that no binding Resolution stands against Israel.
What next? I have an idea.
Did you know that since the Cold War Cuba guilty of violating 3,285 UN Resolutions? Sure, they weren't passed, but hey, just cause their mates vetoed it doesn't mean it wasn't about morality.
Ooops, my mistake.
On a side note....
Cuba DOES have a UN Security Council Resolution standing against it.
You may recall the Socialist state's tendency to blow civilians out of the sky.
http://www.un.org/News/Press/
doc...727.sc6247.html
You may recall this. Or, more likely, have forgotten.
Page 2.
THR, if you actually want to highlight UN motions that HAVE passed against Israel, take a look at the UN Human Rights Council. Yes they have passed motions against Israel. Over half a dozen times.
Unfortunately for them and their credibility, they have not passed a single motion against:
-China (Tibet)
-Burma
-Zimbabwe
-Sudan (GENOCIDE in Darfur)
-Iran (executes more of its people than any other country in the world bar China)
Not a single motion.
Against any of them.
All with far worse records than the only democracy in the Middle-East.
As you can imagine, Human Rights Watch is appalled and doesn't ascribe this UN organ much credibility for only criticizing a democratic state:
"So far it’s been enormously disappointing, and the opponents of human rights enforcement are running circles around the proponents"
-Kenneth Roth, Executive director of Human Rights Watch."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/1...r=1&
oref=slogin
Neither does UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon, who is:
"worried by its disproportionate focus on violations by Israel" , and has "has clearly not justified all the hopes that so many of us placed on it."
And former UN Secretary General Kofi Annan, who shut down the predecessor UN Human Rights body for its harsh critique of Israel's far milder actions compared to the tyrranical regimes above, also weighed in against its innaccurate and unethical Israel-bashing, saying it:
"cast a shadow on the reputation of the United Nations system as a whole."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/1...gin&
oref=slogin
Nevertheless, THIS is the only place where you can ACCURATELY state that the UN has passed motions against Israel.
But then you must be prepared to receive criticism from Human Rights Watch and the UN Secretary General.
.
Page 3.
THR, it’s really encouraging that some on the Left don’t advocate removing all Jews from Palestinian land. Yes, some are crazies. (they assassinated a Prime Minister). I’ve met some of them and hopefully they know that when a UN endorsed plan is implemented, they will have about 3 choices:
-Go to Israel
-Go to the largest settlement, which will stay in Israeli lands.
(which will be swapped for equal sized land in current Israeli territory)
-Stay in the new Palestinian state, but accept that it means they’ll be a citizen of Palestine.
(and, of course, they should be given the full protection of Palestinian law as minorities)
THR said:
"Finally, if you've been reading the news, you'll see that Hamas have been relatively well-behaved of late, and that whilst there are still occasional rockets fired into Israel, they are few in number, and from fringe groups."
THR, one of the "benefits" for us in the West facing against totalitarian movements that slaughter even their own people to take full control….(click and scroll down to enjoy the vid)
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/AR...T1/595/
695.html
…. is that you can’t accuse them of not knowing about what’s going on within their tightly controlled areas. Hamas decides who fires. Total control means total control. That’s the benefit of driving out your Fatah opposition. You have a monopoly. Nobody, not even Hamas itself, has said they don’t have full control of Gaza. They have a monopoly on security. They decide who, if anybody, will be firing.
And they’ve only been quiet due to recent Israeli successes against their top lieutenants, hence Hamas’ call for a “ceasefire” to re-arm and re-group.
You will recall the exact same thing happened in 2004 after Israel assassinated both Hamas heads consecutively, Sheik Yassin, and Abdel "by-God-we-won’t-leave-a-single-Jew-in-Palestine" Rantisi.
Hamas was reeling after that, and also offered a ceasefire to recoup.
Israel took the bait then.
I doubt she'll do so again now. Not when Hamas can re-arm now with weapons from those Right-wing religious nuts, the Iranian Conservatives.
NOG, I think I made it pretty clear that the only reason that the UN isn't tougher against Israel is because a certain member of the security council vetoes any inconvenient resolutions.
If there is anything that the US and Israel have made perfectly clear, it is that the UN is utterly irrelevant, at least while the former are still in existence. I'm not sure why you think this is a moral victory for your side. Israel can do as it pleases, the UN can do nothing - and it is virtually sanctioned by all the official bodies and media.
THR,
And I think I've made it pretty clear that this is perfectly moral.
Just, even.
Except for the Israel-bashing at the UN Human Rights Council. Apparently, it's not enough for you.
I'll rely on Human Rights Watch to deliver the verdict on the relevancy of the UN Human Rights Council:
"So far it’s been enormously disappointing, and the opponents of human rights enforcement are running circles around the proponents"
-Kenneth Roth, Executive director of Human Rights Watch.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/1...gin&
oref=slogin
The issue in question has little to do with the UN and its resolutions. My criticism of Israel's policies stands irrespective of whether the UN agrees with me.
We have a situation where there is a clear distinction between oppressor and oppressed, occupier and occupied. This distinction runs across racial and religious lines. The actions of a small minority of Palestinian militants (whose attacks on civilians I do not support) is miniscule compared to the theft and murder committed on a daily basis by Israel. You rightly criticise China and Iran for executing people and, no doubt, perceived enemies of the state, yet you cannot seem to imagine why people may criticise Israel for exactly the same reason.
NOG.
My next door neighbour lives in Australia and he wouldn't know who the opposition leader is. According to your logic, he should be an expert. Living somewhere doesn't make your opinions right. Studying the country doesn't make your views correct. Gosh, I know of a well known so called conservative blogg;r who is married and claims he is now an expert on marriages, especially how gay marriages won't work.
You don't get it, do you. Most of the world agree that Israel should settle up and get out. They don't condone the barbaric attacks on innocent Israelis but they are not blind to the reality. You apparently are. I deplore any nation that acts so barbaric but to have the support of a blatantly corrupt US is mind boggling. How you look past this just confirms my suspicions.
.... I am perfectly well relxaed in the knowledge that the reason I support Israel is because of my ethics and humanity. You see, I support the most progressive state in the region. And so do most other democracies in the world. You can stick with the despicable despots and tyrants of the Non-Aligned Movement (NAM) who vote as a block at the UN against Israel.
And you call me a hypocrite. Most democracies do NOT support Israel's occupation. They accept Israel's right to exist and support Israel as a country but they DO NOT accept their actions. How many resolutions have to be drafted (by 99% of the 192 nations) before Israel behave like a civilised nation? BTW, how many Jewish groups are there now against the occupation?
You can support the ultra-Conservatives of Hamas that rule Palestinians.
Where do you get this stuff from? If I am opposed to the brutal actions of power mad regimes, why would I support Hamas?
I'd suggest you start by switching off your daily 30 sec slot from SBS World News and actually SPEAK to an Israeli, perhaps for the first time in your life. Learn about their dreams and hopes as well. It will stand you in high stead and remove some of that demonising that you've been accustomed to.
This often happens when you never meet an opposing player, or only subject yourself to one side.
It's called brainwashing in extreme cases.
Amazingly you have detailed the very foundations of how you have come to be blind to the facts but somehow accuse me of these traits. I have talked to 2 Israelis and both are angered by their government. Funny enough, just today, one of them who I discussed this post with laughed at how SBS is considered by you to be unfit for viewing. She wanted to know if your name was Bill O'Reilly. God, I laughed.
What's the point even discussing this. You will barrack for your team no matter what, regardless of the contempt the Israeli government have for human life. I suggest you wander over to AWH and join some like minded folks.
I gave up trying to reason with NOG regarding this topic on Jeremy's site and thought I would see what else THR talks about and was pleased to see other people ripping into him as well.
I don't know what this guys agenda is but i think the Bill O'Reilly wannabe makes the most sense from what I can tell.
I'm surprised he didn't label either of you an anti semite though.
There's little point in trying to change the opinons of NOG and friends, though it's good to see that at least having such discussions can be interesting for other people who are looking.
I'm bemused by NOG's waddling into a post about yesterday's Melbourne anti-anti-abortion picket post on Jeremy's blog with rantings about keffiyehs and Palestinians and whatnot.
Yeah, i noticed that as well Bron. I see he has kept trying to derail the thread with his pro US Imperialist agenda.
That guy is a complete tool and I know I'm not going to bother trying to reason with him again, its like trying to reason with Bill O'Reilly or a spoilt 5 year old.
It is a little surprising though after the new asshole i tore him only a few days ago whilst "discussing" the Israel / Palestine conflict on Jeremy's site.
The guys a racist peice of shit so who cares what he thinks anyway.
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