Yeah!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/afghanistan
My God!
http://www.kansascity.com/449/st...ory/
665043.html
This doesn't look good on us at all.
and
are we like the Soviet Union in Afghanistan and Iraq?
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSA...B57/
soviet.html
It's the Caspian sea, Russia and China.
BUDAPEST -- During the Cold War, the balance of power was measured in nuclear warheads. Now a new kind of contest is playing out. The battlefield is Europe's energy market. The objective is pipeline proliferation. And Russia is winning.
Europe is witnessing a race between two mammoth pipeline projects that would bring natural gas to the Continent from the Caspian and beyond. One of the plans -- hatched in Europe, championed by Washington and named for a Verdi opera -- has been hobbled by bureaucracy. The other, backed by the Kremlin, is rolling ahead with a speed and success that has surprised and frustrated the West. The outcome could shape energy supplies, and political influence, in Europe for decades to come
http://online.wsj.com/article/
SB...=googlenews_wsj
Lisa,
"BUDAPEST -- During the Cold War, the balance of power was measured in nuclear warheads."
That's a nonsense statement...amateurs talk tactics...professionals talk logistics. Without beans,bullets and fuel the most disciplined army in the world quickly descends into a cold, hungry and unruly mob.
Joint Chiefs of Staff-
It is illegal to torture.
Lisa
Find a legal definition of torture.
One that is enforcable.
Sort of like the reason the law against Sedition is not enforced in the US. Sedition is not legaly defined and they know the SCUS would throw out any such charge...
The law is clear as to what torture is DJ.
We do not step down to their level.
That is unacceptable...otherwise child molesters and serial killers would be tortured and killed on the spot. We are to rise above their behavior and not become as they are.
If we are to sink so low, then there are no limits.
Besides that, we are going to be battling wars for resources and I am tired of being told that we have no problems when China and Cuba are taking our oil from our gulf.
We have trouble coming to us from Russia and China.
Look at this and tell me about Al Qaeda being our biggest threat.
http://ap.google.com/article/
ALe...UPJ83AD91C33D00
We have been lead into two bleeding wars and look who benefits.
People are tired of being Made in China and buying our oil from despots.
Lisa
I said a legal definition.
Not your opinion.
Not some propaganda by a politician.
You will not find one.
The definition used by the US Military is not legaly recognized. It is just what the US Military defines it as, in the absense of a legal definition. Only military regulation, not law.
Why don't you tell me what our military's legal definition of what they consider torture?
If our enemy captures one a citizen of ours that they believe is going to harm them, strips him naked and sics a dog on him...do you consider that torture or fair interrogation?
And if that is so, why does our military have JAG?
You are stating that our military has no law other than what they make up even thought they are run by civilians.
http://ap.google.com/article/
ALe...TqGtkAD91C2RT80
What if today I am swept away from my home by one of these AlQaeda types, put in a secret prison. They believe I have info on harming them. What would be considered torture on me from a legal and ethical point of view?
Could they strip me and deprive me of sleep? Could they deprive me of water and waterboard me? Would this be considered torture in the eyes of America?
And I am a citizen.
A law is an opinion that we all come together to decide to follow so that we are not heathens. We are a country of laws and not to be ruled by fear ever.
Law
A rule of conduct established and enforced by the authority, legislation, or custom of a given community, State, or nation.
So we are now under new laws that goes against what the majority of people desires?
Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions prohibits ''violence to life and person,'' in particular ''mutilation, cruel treatment and torture'' and also prohibits ''outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment''. These terms include ''other forms of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment or punishment."
In other words, what is our code of conduct?
You are saying our conduct changes to suit your needs>>>that we have no set code.
http://news.scotsman.com/world/W...ion-
.4194720.jp
Great shame has been brought upon our country.
Lisa
JAG is the legal system of the US Military. Responsible for enforcing US law and US Military Regulations on US Military personnel only.
For military members the regs are effectively the same as law under article 92 UCMJ. But the UCMJ does not apply to civilians except certain contractors. The CIA/FBI/DEA/ATF are not governed by the UCMJ.
The US Government has never legaly defined torture. Waterboarding is a standard training practice in SERE school.
A law is not an opinion. It is a defined written code that is passed by a governing body. No governing body in the US has ever passed a definition of torture. Period.
People are not charged with torture. There is no crime called torture under US law.
What charges are perfered are:
Assault.
Rape.
Kidnaping.
Murder.
And for military, articles 92 and 134.
92 - Failure to obay a lawful order or regulation.
134 - Conduct unbecoming.
Those are not the only charges used but a sampling. Look up the laws. Torture is not listed because it is not defined by law. Procecutors use other laws that are defined to procecute.
Note: There is no legal definition of terrorism either. They are procecuted for murder, kidnaping, robbery, etc. The charges of terrorism and torture does not exist except in the press...
Lisa
Scotsman was describing a bad work day in the navy to me.
If that paper can set the definition of torture, then I can charge you with torture and terrorism for all the BS you are dumping on the internet.
Lisa, both McCain and Obama oppose torture.
By the way.
Since US military are governed by international agreements and US police are not, US military are under more restrictions than US police are in interogations.
Your local police can perform a harsher interogation than any US military can under the existing laws.
In the early 90s the USN Reserve Interogator Unit for the east coast had to be replaced. Somebody thought that using police would be a round peg in a round hole. It wasn't.
Turned out it was easier to train non-police in the restriction that applied to military interogations than to keep the NYPD from reverting to illegal, for military, but perfectly legal for police, technics.
I know this because I was training elements of the west coast USNR Intel out of Moffett Field in '95-97 and that was part of the lessons learned:
Don't us US cops for the interogator units...
Desperate times call for desperate measures...
Lisa
Scotsman was describing a bad work day in the navy to me.
If that paper can set the definition of torture, then I can charge you with torture and terrorism for all the BS you are dumping on the internet.
DJ Elliott | Homepage | 06.17.08 - 10:35 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Really? Is that so?
It is us as a society that set our code of conduct. I do not see anything I have written that says I am a terrorist. I simply question.
I question the behavior of some, especially Rumsfeld and those that followed him that has lowered our standards to below acceptable for our country and degraded our moral standing in the world. That such thoughts of these actions may have been considered because they felt a fear or an urgency that this country was in danger, I understand somewhat. It is the lack of forethought, lack of reason and shameful reaction to these attacks upon our nation. It was indeed beneath these United States.
It was and is beneath these United States to act immorally and ethically no matter how much BS you tell me.
Unethically I mean to say.
I suspect corrective actions will be taken. Perhaps not legally but it will have hurt and scarred this country in such a great way that we will not allow it again.
{{General Hayden has said that information gathered from aggressive interrogations has saved American lives.}}
How do we know this? Because he says so. Correct?
Well then. Why didn't you say so.
Lisa,
I am tired of the Geneva convention discussions.
The Geneva conventions are a system of protections for those personnel involved
in a conflict that accept the tactical disadvantages of wearing a distinctive uniform and driving in a vehicle clearly
marked as 'military'.
In exchange for making themselves readily disinguishable from civilians...thereby minimizing the potential harm to civilians..and maximizing the potential harm to themselves...uniformed military personnel should be treated in an honorable fashion if captured.
If one wishes to take the moral highroad and grant Geneva convention privileges to non-unformed combatants then there is no point in accepting the tactical disadvantage of wearing a uniform and driving in a clearly marked vehicle.
I am sorry but I feel passionately about this...
especially now since I laid in a hospital bed fearing death any minute.
Til this day, this very day, I still have fear and I still cry every single day and there are things I cannot do because of that fear due to my own experience with near physical death. I live still in fear.
I know that all of you have our country's best interest at heart. I know that and I love and admire you for it. I would personally lay down my life for my country and my family's safety. I just want there to be clear lines drawn as to what we should do in order to protect our great nation that also reflects our morals and ethics as a nation. To keep us safe w/o having to give up our very soul.
I will no longer talk about it.
Lisa
There have never been clear lines in any conflict in history. Warfare is not a science, it is an art. Those that forget that do so at their peril...
If this abuse and cruelty is called art...leave me out of it.
What was done in our name by some was illegal in my eyes and very beastly.
I would rather you have let me die than to cross our clear line of laws against cruelty and abuse that shakes our country to the very core.
Mistake is an understatement. Art does not describe the treatment that I have been reading and listening to. It is inhumane.
The Navy General Counsel and many have stated that these "techniques" corrode and currupt our nation. It has brought GREAT SHAME and tears to my eyes as well as my family's to know these "techniques" were used...I write this in fear that I will be accused of being a terrorists. My husband just shook his head and my daughter said it made her sick.
It is a sad, sad day when you can excuse this.
Lisa
I do not have much empathy for you or yours. Too delusional about the real world.
I spent 22 years in a profession where the best I could hope for was to be killed outright or have a chance at suicide rather than be captured.
I had Warsaw Pact officers flat out tell me that they were taught not to document the capture of personnel wearing my rating badge, since I would be disposed of after interogation. Better to be killed outright or suicide.
And these were European civilized countries. You and yours are holding the US up to a mythical standard that has never existed in any country on this planet...
DJ,
You were CIA? Why did you do it then? If that was your profession offered?
I laid awake most of the night with this crap turning about in my head wondering what was true and what was not. How long had we and would we live believing that human kind had not done things to others in the dark places of this world for reasons we would not ever understand or even know about.
We citizens of the world will be living in our little world while someone was being tortured for some reason or another...for war...for money...for secrets untold...for their god or their master...
When I asked why to older people they cannot speak much less think of that occuring. Nobody knows or does not want to know of it. Some say that if this is what is being done then we deserve what we get. Others say it is the end of times.
I just want to know how one human being can do things to another...things such as I have read about and heard and still sleep.
I cannot sleep with the very thought of it on my brain.
Lisa
I do not have much empathy for you or yours. Too delusional about the real world.
--------------------------
I do not ask for empathy. I need not your empathy as I suspect you don't know how to feel empathy.
http://ap.google.com/article/
ALe...X2t8xwD91BE8J01
UAE-
Torture? Depends your definition of torture is correct?
_____
http://uk.reuters.com/article/
wo...lBrandChannel=0
Torture?- depends on your perception...
--------------------
http://uk.reuters.com/article/
wo...948590120080620
Rape or sexual humiliation torture?
-------------------------
http://www.washtimes.com/news/20...orture-tactics/
{{After they received the president's order, Pentagon officials compiled a list of interrogation techniques that later were used on detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison, Guantanamo and elsewhere, according to documents released by the Senate Armed Services Committee this week. The documents state that CIA agents contributed to the plan to use the aggressive interrogation techniques.
{During an Oct. 2, 2002, meeting with military and intelligence officials at Guantanamo, the documents state that CIA counterterrorism lawyer Jonathan Fredman said torture "is basically subject to perception." He also reportedly said, "If the detainee dies, you're doing it wrong."}}
During an Oct. 2, 2002, meeting with military and intelligence officials at Guantanamo, the documents state that CIA counterterrorism lawyer Jonathan Fredman said torture "is basically subject to perception." He also reportedly said, "If the detainee dies, you're doing it wrong."
Col. Wilkerson said, "The president may have been ignorant of the worst parts of the failure."}}
--------
Torture-depends on what you call torture.
I knew when I saw the pics from Abu Ghraib that it was intentional.
Look at the countries we now fall in the category with.
Lisa,
Our glorious leaders like us to believe we live in this "Black and White" world.
We turn on the TV and watch endless hours of "White Hat vs Black Hat". We go to Church and the minister blathers on about "right and wrong...good and evil".
In the first few years of his presidency Jimmy Carter believed in moral absolutes. Millions of people paid with their lives for that mistake. Not American lives..but lives
none the less.
In the real world there are costs and benefits. The CIA "had the shot" on Bin Laden during the Clinton administration. It would have been clearly illegal to "take the shot".
No one kidnaps Russian embassy personnel because they know full well that the KGB will track them down and execute them in the most ruthless manner possible.
Yet the current glorious leader of Iran kidnapped US Embassy personnel and has been bragging about it for 30 years and lives. Endlessly giving speeches about "The Great Satan". If the Great Satan were nearly as evil as he would like us all to believe he would be fish food.
The price the glorious leaders of the US are willing to pay for moral absolutism is pretty high...but its not unlimited. There isn't a mother in
the world who wouldn't steal if it was the only way she could find to keep her children from starving to death.
I know SD.
I know DJ.
Why isn't he dead?
And all I can remember about Carter was my mother saying he was a horrible president. Not we have this 80 something running around the world the talking shit about us.
Then or now we have this secret prisons and broomsticks and on and on.
Personally, that bothers me and as they say shocks the conscience. Sometimes the mother can let the child go a little hungry. I did and I appreciate things more.
simply put lisa
Todd;s fire team in Iraq is ambushed and captured alive. Past events show pows are returned dead if at all. We track and capture the man responsible soon after. DO WE
ask him nicely, and hope and pray he is a nice guy and tells all.
or
if putting womens underwear upon his head and having a dog bark and snarled and or dipping him in water will get him to tell us the soldiers location would it be so bad then?
lets see we would have 1 wet humiliated and pissed off terrorist
AND
5 "saved " soldiers
Hand me the leash!
Its all local and always relative, most things are.
And DJ...
You said this..."I spent 22 years in a profession where the best I could hope for was to be killed outright or have a chance at suicide rather than be captured."
I am sorry that you had to live like that. Why did you do it?
What inspired you to take on such a profession?
I don't live in a make believe world where everything is perfect. But I do expect that we rise above certain tactics.
And no BobK, no leash. We are not animals and we should not behave as them. We are not KGB and we are not AlQaeda.
We are Americans.
I was abused when I was young. I had the opportunity to kill them- I did not, I wanted to but I did not. There were no adults to save me...just me. Just me.
I'll make this case like this.
There is a child missing. We find the guy we think who took her. We are pretty sure he has down it many times possibly hundreds of times before-molested and killed children.
What do we do to make him talk?
And let's even make him a foreigner from another country.
Do we stretch him from limb to limb?
Sounds good to me but that would be against our laws.
Do we pull his clothes off and put a leash around his neck? Remember there are children missing. Do we do that? I am all for that but it is against our laws. Hell, I am for peeling his finger nails off and nailing his weener to a tree but we cannot do that EVEN FOR THE SAKE OF INNOCENT CHILDREN we are not allowed to do these things. Why? Why can't we torture the child molester and make him tell us where they put those kids and then kill him slowly? I mean it. Why? If we can do these things against terrorists then why not these child molesters who are terrorists? These children are innocent and the molester will never get better even after jail time and after therapy. Studies have proven that. They'll do it again. They'll terrorize children and their families again and again. We don't terrorize them. We let them live. Why?
And no BobK, no leash. We are not animals and we should not behave as them. We are not KGB and we are not AlQaeda.
We are Americans.
Lisa | 06.20.08 - 4:12 pm |
what about the 5 guys?
you left that out of the "simple, holier than thou " answer.
WHAT do YOU tell the moms and wifes and GIRLFRIENDS. "We coulda saved them but we cant be mea you know, sorry mam".
I wouldnt think twice and neither WOULD you, not when it is your own!
Lisa,
Lisa | 06.20.08 - 4:55 pm | #
apples and oranges
Iam and I would think the others hare dealing with the specifics of this war without uniforms going on in IRAQ and AFG.
We can not confuse IRAQ with the US and a civilian arrest. NOT THE SAME. The criinal is just that, a criminal. I am discussing MASS MURDERING UN-UNIFORMED combatants in a WAR being fought with guns and bombs.
What do I tell them? We followed the military code of law and did the best we could...this is war and we will continue to search for them. Military men know that is a chance they take and they know the code and honor they must live and fight by.
-----------------
Mass murder cannot be prevented by putting broomsticks up the enemies rear. In fact, you will make MORE fanatics by that behavior.
Yes, I would think twice. The very thought of some of these techniques have never crossed my mind. I am starting to hate the ME at this point.
You are correct that this is war with bombs and guns and guerilla warfare and they use what they have such as drilling holes in knees...does not mean we stoop to that level. It's not about them, it's about us.
You cannot become them.
Lisa,
Here's a little mind bender to test your
"understanding" of the world.
In 2007...shortly after the 40th anniversery of the Arab-Israeli conflict..a Russian Archivist mistakenly declassified some citations that accompanied some medals given to some Soviet Pilots in 1967.
The citations were for their heroic service penetrating Israeli Airspace during the Arab-Israeli war.
Then in 1968 we had this
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/Gilg...lgamesh/
68.html
"On July 17, 1968, the government was overthrown by the army. The reasons given by Ba'th--the corruption of the 'Arif regime, Kurdish disturbances in the north, the government's failure to support other Arab countries in the Six-Day War of 1967"
Then in 1969 we had this
http://africanhistory.about.com/...ol-of-
libya.htm
1 September 1969 – Gaddafi Takes Control of Libya
Then this
1969: Military coup in Somalia.
Then this
1969: Military Coup in the Sudan
Then this -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haf.../Hafez_al-
Assad
After being discredited by the failure of the Syrian military in the Six-Day War in 1967, and enraged by the aborted Syrian intervention in the Jordanian-Palestinian Black September war, the government faced conflict within its ranks. By the time President Nureddin al-Atassi and the de facto leader, deputy secretary general of the Baath Party Salah Jadid, realized the threat and ordered Assad and Tlass be stripped of all party and government power, it was too late. Assad swiftly launched a bloodless intra-party coup, The Corrective Revolution of 1970. The party was purged, Atassi and Jadid jailed, and Assad loyalists installed in key posts throughout the government.
The Soviets fail to push the American Puppet Israeli into the sea and secure the port of Haifa in '67. Pretty much every leader in the region was replaced within 3 years. All of those leaders were fiercely Anti-American.
The jihadi's hate us because they believe a bunch of propaganda being sold by the KGB. There is nothing the US could actually do that would approach what the Jihadi's already believe. There is no abomination the US could possibly commit anything that would be worse than what the police forces in the Middle East commit as a matter of daily routine.
As far as Abu Graib...all the pictures occurred on that dumb ass girls birthday...it was a sadomasochist birthday party for her. A gift to her from her sadomasochistic boyfriend.
That's what S&M freaks do...they put on dog collars and stick broomsticks up each others backsides. There is a big "S&M" community in Seattle. There not shy about saying what they get up to. Just look at the adult personnels
for Seattle or SanFrancisco or any other city with a large freak population on craigslist. Guess what...the job of "prison guard" has a tendency to attract sadists.
I am right now to Lt. Col Beaver and the hearing and others being questioned from the other day. SEAR techniques-she wanted use those techniques as offensives--not POW's...might be legal because the president already said the Genevan conv. did not apply. That they used SEAR techniques were permissible.
We used them to opposite of what Sear was supposed to be used.
Check it out in CSpan
I am sorry SERE School.
It was stated to use the SERE techniques apply to Gitmo Detainees.
To use as offensive techniques...these women wrote legal opinions but did not approve just had a opinions. It had to be approved by the Sec Def.
Lt. Col Beaver says we can use Sere techs as long as basically make it legal. As long as the Red Cross does not know about it, it is okay. She crawfishes and states that she meant the Red Cross could not interupt. Basically she stated it could be done as long as no one knew. She was not a legal expert she says. 6 yrs later she repeats over and over.
Rear Adm Dalton states that exercise the rights their concerns of the more aggressive techs at Gitmo and all services expressed concern about techniques. blah,blah, blah The Chairman called her and to her Mr. Haynes did not want the process to proceed...she was told to stand down.
That they could be could be conducted humanely if they would no nudity, working dogs, stress techs limited and overlooked carefully. In an article from vanity fair implied Gen. Miers indicated by the his initials were not on them...she got info from another lawyer from behind and denied this.
There were concerns and addressed. Mr Haynes told her to stop the broad- based analysis. She cannot remember raising concerns and others...but she was satified they were addressed. Miers never signed but in the memo but ref that he concurred. Sec Def authorized the certain techs are legal.
Legally they made fear of dogs...it states removal of clothing...it was not written down that nudity is prohibited-advanced immunity. Forced nudity, hooding, throwing against walls, wet clothing, urine soaked clothes, electric shock, extreme cold, extreme hot, no tiolet, ice water poured and this happened in Afghanistan first. Detainees were in Baghram were beaten to death.
Dogs were used at Gitmo. Beaver denies knowing.
A man was stripped naked a nd search in front of female personell at Gitmo. Laywers were yelling as well as military.
Rear Adm. Dalton was stopped from reviewing with other services-she was stoped from doing a broad-based review.
Col. Beaver The purpose for a request of a dog from Col. Beaver could be used as a perimeter and used to keep prisoner uneasy...to induce stress to keep the prisoner off balance and induce stress and phobias..
Adm. Dalton: Recollects that the services had concerns. Cannot remember much. Mr. Haynes was aware of the services concerns.
Col. Beaver in Ref to Becker open discussions.
Meeting:
Lt. Col. Beaver:denies saying We need to curb the harsher techniques when the Red Cross around. She says she doesn't think she would say something like that.
Note were written by DoD criminal investigators.
Notes said:
The CIA is not held to the same rules.
They moved detainees when the Red Cross would come according to notes.
video-taping even the totally legal would look bad accordding to Mr. Fredman in notes. Video taping is not necessary states Col. Beaver. Lt. Col Beaver's laywer interupts objects.
---
In other words the shit is hitting the fan...and more is coming.
History will not be kind...
History is never kind or harsh.
It just is.
You demonize your enemies and glorify your own in war. That is part of the propaganda of war.
The US has never been the glorious country you seem to think it is. Just better than most.
What you are complaining about was (and probably still is) nothing more than college hazing...
There are people that pay to get treated that way in this country.
Torture is far worse and usually results in death in the end. At minimum it leaves very noticable and visable scars...
As for the US, you live on land that others were genocided from. This country was conquered...
You live in your relative peace because of others that did what had to be done. Your statements are the hipocracy of the ignorant...
Mass murder cannot be prevented by putting broomsticks up the enemies rear. In fact, you will make MORE fanatics by that behavior.
i think that was NYP that does that
Hey, Where I am you are too.
You take action or inaction in lying to the general public DJ. Where your head lies at night to sleep is where someone gave their last breathe to keep...your smug attitude towards cruelty and torture has made me consider that you are possibly w/o conscience.
I am not complaining. I am telling you it is unacceptable. We are about progress otherwise we should just turn back the hands of time,live under a king, bring back slavery and disembowel and behead our enemies.
And DJ, I and The General Public are no longer ignorant of the deeds done...what the people do with that is yet to be seen.
I suspect they will bury their heads from it.
Lisa
A quarter of my linage was on this contenent when your European conquers still thought the world was flat. Your linage and 3/4s of mine conquered the Americas. And eliminated entire tribes in doing so.
I spent 22 years doing the dirty work necissary so that nieve fools like yourself could sleep at night in ignorance. I am still a member of the Fleet Reserve and recallable if needed.
What you consider to be torture is nothing. I have been thru SERE school. I know what it is like on both sides of an interogation. Machts Nichts.
So long as you keep spouting the BS of the NYTs, do not expect to be considered credible. To those that know the real world, you are a nieve fool...
Lisa
What you think you know and what is really happening, are two very different stories. The general public doesn't know a slice of the tip of the surface of the iceberg of what is happening. They just know what the propagandist tell them.
DJ,
Self-righteousness...it's an interesting phenomenon practiced by those that have never seen any of the four horsemen of the apocalypse up close and personnel. They also tend to think that it is a good idea to refine
a significant chunk of the worlds food supply into gasoline.
6 Billion people on the planet...most of them cold and hungry and some rocket scientists decide the best way to end the worlds problems is to start
using food to power our automobiles.
Half of Africa will starve to death...and we have people that think the reason 'they hate us' is that we roughed up a few dozen of their 'brothers'.
E85 ethanol is renewable and eco-friendly. It will also help end our dependence on foreign oil. It will also end the rest of the worlds dependence on American Food...because they are going to starve to death.
The first horseman to appear is Pestilence, who rides upon a sickly, decaying horse. Pestilence causes the decay and imminent destruction of the worlds crops and wildlife. In the wake of Pestilence comes Famine, a large and portly rider riding upon a thin and sickly horse, symbolizing gluttony and the lack of food. In the wake of Famine, due to immense fighting over the remaining food supplies, is War. War rides upon a red horse and wields a tremendous sword which he uses to slay the millions in his path. And in the wake of War, comes the black rider, Death. His horse is, as one would guess, jet black. He is followed by Hades and carries the remaining souls to their final destinations.
SD
So it is written...
Do you know why they, we will turn their heads? Because it will and has grieved and sickened them so deeply they cannot bear the thought that these United States was doing such things. Torture was used in our name violates EVERYTHING we stand for.
SD,
Remember the flea from a rat caused the Black Plague.
Lisa
Others payed and continue to pay the price and do what needs to be done so that you could be alive to be the hipocrit you are today.
"Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
I am NOT a Hypocrite.
I am VERY DISAPPOINTED but not a HYPOCRITE>You fit that bill
Hypocrite-somebody feigning high principles: somebody who gives a false appearance of having admirable principles, beliefs, or feelings
In fact you sound like an actor from a movie called A Few Good Men when he yells out to the lawyer You Can't Handle The Truth.
The thing is DJ is it is YOU that cannot handle the truth.
http://armed-services.senate.gov...%2006-17-
08.pdf
((Mr. Chairman, our Nation’s policy decision to use so-called “harsh” interrogation
techniques during the War on Terror was a mistake of massive proportions. It damaged
and continues to damage our Nation in ways that appear never to have been considered or
imagined by its architects and supporters, whose policy focus seems to have been
narrowly confined to the four corners of the interrogation room. This interrogation policy
– which may aptly be labeled a “policy of cruelty” – violated our founding values, our
constitutional system and the fabric of our laws, our over-arching foreign policy interests,
and our national security. The net effect of this policy of cruelty has been to weaken our
defenses, not to strengthen them, and has been greatly contrary to our national interest.
Before turning to this damage, it may be useful to draw some of the basic legal
distinctions pertinent to interrogation. The choice of the adjectives “harsh” or
“enhanced” to describe these interrogation techniques is euphemistic and misleading.
The more precise legal term is “cruel.” Many of the “counter-resistance techniques”
authorized for use at Guantanamo in December 2002 constitute “cruel, inhuman, or
1 “Statement for the Record: Office Of General Counsel Involvement in Interrogation Issues,” (July 7,
2004)(May be accessed at www.newyorker.com/images/pdfs/moramemo.pdf).
2 The speech was given at the ABA’s Center for Human Rights Fourth Annual House of Delegates
Luncheon. The text is located at www.abavideonews.org/ABA496/media/pdf/
navycounsel_OMKall.pdf.
3
degrading” treatment that could, depending on their application, easily cross the threshold
of torture.
Many Americans are unaware that there is a legal distinction between cruelty and
torture, cruelty being the less severe level of abuse. This has tended to obscure important
elements of the interrogation debate from the public’s attention. For example, the public
may be largely unaware that the government could evasively if truthfully claim (and did
claim) that it was not “torturing” even as it was simultaneously interrogating detainees
cruelly. Yet there is little or no moral distinction between cruelty and torture, for cruelty
can be as effective as torture in savaging human flesh and spirit and in violating human
dignity. Our efforts should be focused not merely on banning torture, but on banning
cruelty.
Except in egregious cases, gauging the precise legal category of abuse inflicted on
a detainee is difficult because it depends on specific facts, including the techniques used
and the medical and psychological impact. In general, however, it is beyond dispute that
techniques constituting cruel treatment were authorized and applied. Tragically, credible
reporting also makes it appear probable that some detainees were tortured. Certainly, the
admission that waterboarding – a classic and reviled method
http://levin.senate.gov/
newsroom...SASC.061708.pdf
use of wet towel and dripping water to induce misperception of suffocation.
But we can do that because they are not POW's.
Every-EVERY Armed Service Had Serious Problems With This.
All if them...maybe you think they are hypocrites.
Lisa,
Go back and look at the transcripts of the Ollie North and Robert McFarland crucifixions.
Without North and McFarland Eastern Europe would still be part of the Soviet Union. Saddams little foray into Kuwait wouldn't have been with his measly rag tag army...it would have had the full backing of the Soviet Army. General Schwartzkopf wouldn't have been a national hero...he would have been the General that failed to "Hold the Line" at the Saudi Border which resulted in Soviet control of 90% of the worlds oil.
But history was written yet...and the "Good People" were screaming for a crucification and congress gave them one.
So once again...people completely ignorant of any relevant facts are screaming for a crucification and congress will give them one.
It's nothing but a Soviet Style show trial to placate the mob.
I would note that Master Gates was confirmed as Secretary of Defense in almost complete silence.
Funny how people that "history will remember poorly" are quietly called back to the service of their countries
when things aren't quite working out the way "the good people" had hoped.
I sat with an 80 yr old woman years ago in her apartment. She had worked at the White House for years-she had pictures of herself in ball gowns in the White House and Persian Rugs in her tiny apartment. She had never married. I was a young person in shock about the thing I was watching unfold on tv. The Iran-Contra Affair. She said to me, "I don't know what they are so upset about. This kind of thing has been happening for years."
Even knowing that, I still feel surprised everytime...
Lisa,
I really don't care...its just a show to placate people like you. Black Ops have always been with the consent of the Senate and if they become public or go wrong the Senate denies all knowledge and hangs someone. One can not use lawful orders as a defense because the existence of the orders themselves is classified.
You can console yourself that the "Rogue Perpetrators" have been punished and sleep soundly knowing that sooner or later some nut case is going to lay his hands on a nuke..and someone in the CIA or Special forces that has the shot will refuse to take it.
Lisa,
On the Iran-Contra thing. Gates/North/McFarland had a glorious plan to roll the KGB. North Korea/Iran et al would have worked out as well.
They even had the Vatican on board.
They all ended up disgraced.
But hey...millions dead was a better plan...or so our glorious leaders in congress thought.
Lisa
Sgt Bob is the kid next door, Mcdonalds, Taco bell, soccer, baseball, band, all of it.
His first tour in 04/05 Iraq was in Ramadi/ Falluja. His job at that time was sniper. I have never asked. he has never said. I know. He knows. Hope like hell mom dont but..
Why do I say this?
because:
"Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
DJ Elliott | Homepage
dont bitch at them Lisa, thank them. Thousands of soldiers have died in service almost every year, even prior to Iraq. Did you ever wonder why? small wara are always being waged to accomodate someones power grab sonewhere. They just aint sexy enough for the "news"
stop one moment and ask what would it be like without the guys like dj , sgt bob, todd, sd and every other vet alive. The answer to that is most likely a very ugly place.
what is Black Ops
Todd's an idiot but he can pull a trigger...so is his sister but she can pull a trigger.
I know lots of vets. Know that most of them think this war is stupid...I don't really care.
OOh, you mean undercover and psy-ops like this http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_ne...ews/
7464430.stm
Uh, where's Anand?
don't get me wrong-we love Todd.
i love you. you love me. we are a happy family...
then there are the men that say we have killed 70-100 prisoners...and then there are those that say if we make that up then we made up the Holocaust.
Todd's an idiot but he can pull a trigger...so is his sister but she can pull a trigger.
I know lots of vets. Know that most of them think this war is stupid...I don't really care.
Lisa | 06.22.08 - 11:34 am | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
to first point;
if that was all it took to make a soldier then the dems were correct-we shouda made zillions of iraqi's soldiers by giving them guns and calling them an army and drafting here at home---EXCEPT that wont work. If you knew and saw all the tech stuff Bob had to use and know for each mission you would be surprised. At times shooting a gun was not even involved. To call in air support , close fire support etc.
I think it takes a bit more than that to make a US soldier or marine, dont disrespect them for the work they do and training they constantly under go
Over 1.5 million men and women have served in Iraq honorably and with great loss and sacrifice. The actions of but a few seems to trump the actions of millions. That is EXACTLY what the MSM and DEMS WANT YOU TO DWELL UPON.
Why do you have to SEARCH for the fact we are winning Iraq and doing it faster than hoped a year ago? Why isnt the media BRAGGING about that ? They should be cheering our guys on rather than looking for "GOTCHA'S".
Maybe those vets you know dont know that we have done as well as we have--would you if not for SD , Roggio , ITM etc.
to the second:
why would you not care about this , you seem to aganize about most everything else uncontrolable.
Trust me Bob.
FYI
Do you know why Lisa does not comment at LWJ? Simple. She is banned as a spammer.
I have no idea why SD puts up with her hijacking his comments sections and stifling discussion of the subject of his article.
She could not do a more effective job of propagandizing and stiffling discusion if she was paid too.
Apparently, no one wanted to read her blog...
I am...and i donated to that site.
No, Bob, I am not saying all soldiers but Todd blew it with Jess.
Lisa, I hang out here, LWJ, and Iraqi Mojo. I am here, but am unsure what you want me to comment on.
I thought that Iran Contra was a necessary attempted outreach by the Reagan administration to Khomeini. It failed, but they were right to try it. Saddam was the greater threat than Khomeini.
Lisa, one thing I sometimes do is breath in and out 10 times, very slowly, focusing my mind entirely on the breath. It takes about 5-7 minutes.
No, Bob, I am not saying all soldiers but Todd blew it with Jess.
Lisa | 06.22.08 - 10:49 pm | #
guys will do that--its the nature of the beast. has much to do with you not getting "it" at times.
besides he has a little thing on his mind for now--staying alive and seeing to it his buds do as well.
just remamber when you go nuts over what few a may have done you impune the MILLION PLUS good guys and ladies. perspective is critical
i know Bob. Thank you.
On topic for a change.
http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/...L_SIGNED%
20.pdf
The latest 9010 report has an interesting set of graphics:
pg20 (PDF2
- weekly security incident trends chart
pg24 (32) - Weapons Caches Found chart
pg26 (34) - High Profile Attacks chart
pg27 (35) - 87% of the attacks are still Baghdad, Ninawa, Salahadin, and Diyala. (Despite the activity in the south.)
pg30 (3 - Public perceptions of safety chart
DJ,
I am extremely sorry for offending you. Please forgive me.
Someone of your caliber even speaking to me is an honor.
This is what DJ has done and is doing:
DJ Elliott:
DJ Elliott is primary author of the Iraqi Security Forces Order of Battle. He entered active duty in the US Navy, earned an Intelligence Specialist rating in 1981, and retired after 22 years of service. His sea duties have included USS Enterprise , USS LaSalle (Middle East Force staff), USS Coronado (Joint Task Force Middle East/Middle East Force staff ), USS Independence and USS Yorktown. Shore duties have included Naval Liaison Unit, Munich, Germany; US Defense Attache Office, Copenhagen, Denmark; Combined Naval Intelligence Center, Chinhae, Korea; Reserve Intelligence Program Office Area Two, Moffett Field, Calif. (instructor); and Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center, Fallon, Nev. DJ has a Bachelor of Arts from Columbia College and wrote and sold two war game designs while in the service.
So I am guessing you know all about stupid me.
A pleasure to meet you sir.
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