Why is marijuane objectively forbidden? What's the difference between pot and khat, and addictive leaf chewn and brewed by generations of Religious Yemenite Jews - including the Rabbanim? What's the difference between Marijuana and Coffee, and addictive bean brewed into drink by generations of Jews inclduing the Rabbanim? What's the difference between marijuana and Coke Cola which contains addded amounst of addictive Cafeeine and drunk by at least 3 generations of religious Jews including Rabbanim? What's the difference between Marijuana and Wine which can be addictive and is REQUIRED to be drunk on Friday nights and on Pesach night in copious quantities? What's the difference between Marijuana and whiskey or beer - drunk by generations of rabbanim (see commentary to Tur on issue of Chadash in Chu"l)? And of course the comparison to cigarettes (though I don't have the tshuva in front of me; it may have been written before the addictive properties of cigs were well known).

It seems to me that the only issue with halachic issue with Marijuana is one of dina d'malchuta dina when the state forbids its consumption and there would be no halachic problems smoking a joint in Vancouver BC in Amsterdam.

For that matter, I'd love to know what was done for kiddush friday nights in the USA during prohibition? Was everyone yotzei on Sacramental kiddush wine approved for use in the shul? What about states that didn't have sacramental exemptions - were there any? Did Jews get exemptions for "medicinal purposes" (such prescriptions existed during prohibition) and use them on the sly for kiddush wine?
oysvurf | 08.01.05 - 4:52 am | #

Probably a good chance that many of Rav Moshe's colleagues smoked-and he wouldn't say something is assur that Rabbanim have been doing for centuries. Smoking is an obvious problem of ushmartem meod et nafshoteichem.
Never underestimate the personal aspect of psak-R. JD Bleich a chain smoker says smoking permissible because shomer ptaim hashem-Bleich for example is I believe groundbreaking on what deaf people can do.
mycroft | 08.01.05 - 5:06 am | #

oysvurf,

1. How about grape juice during prohibition?

2. Apart from that, I also never saw a principle difference between tobacco, alcohol and caffeine on the one hand, and drugs like weed that aren't any more addictive on the other. Dine demalchuse might be the only issue, but this is difficult anyway.

3. Was Coca Cola under hashgoche when they still added actual cocaine? (This was up to the 20's, IIRC.)

4. Gil, how about a ma-amar about the pro and cons of prohibiting things that would otherwise be allowed (ensuing crime etc.)?
Lipman | 08.01.05 - 5:44 am | #

Is it possible that R' Moshe did not understand the medical consequences, dangers and addictive nature of cigarette smoking when he wrote his teshuva? Because if he had a full understanding of the dangers of smoking, how could he have not assured it? Assuming he did not have all the information about the dangers, its quite logical to assume he did not have the information regarding its addictive nature either.
Bobthebuilder | 08.01.05 - 7:49 am | #

'3. Was Coca Cola under hashgoche when they still added actual cocaine? (This was up to the 20's, IIRC.)'

No, it became kosher after the cocaine was removed. The caffiene is still there, though.

http:// www.jewishvirtuallibrary....ering_Coke.html

http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/c...ore/ cocaine.asp
charliehall | 08.01.05 - 7:56 am | #

"Why is marijuane objectively forbidden? What's the difference between pot and khat, and addictive leaf chewn and brewed by generations of Religious Yemenite Jews - including the Rabbanim?"

Where does it say "objectively"? If, hypothetically, there were Jamaican Jews who smoked pot and done so for generations I'm not at all sure that R. Moshe would have included them. He was writing in an American context.
Aramis | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 8:53 am | #

If you accept that the surgeon general etc. are correct about the dangers of smoking (and that it's not just some atheistic scientists' plot to reduce our belief in chazal and HKB"H :-) we're faced with a bit of a philisophical problem - how can halacha through the gedolim permit actions that are dangerous to our health.

There are a number of possible answers (e.g. who says that anything that is bad for you is forbidden, the correlation must be obvious to the eye, nishtaneh hateva, nishtaneh society's view.....) but the question needs to be adressed.

KT
joel rich | 08.01.05 - 8:53 am | #

"1. How about grape juice during prohibition?"

Wine was permitted for religious sacrament during prohibition.
Aramis | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 8:54 am | #

"3. Was Coca Cola under hashgoche when they still added actual cocaine? (This was up to the 20's, IIRC.)"

There were no hashgochas on food products in the 1920s. There were barely hashgachas on meat.
Aramis | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 8:55 am | #

Is it possible that R' Moshe did not understand the medical consequences, dangers and addictive nature of cigarette smoking when he wrote his teshuva?

The medical consequences and dangers, possibly. That is what his son-in-law claims. But the addictive nature of it? I highly doubt it. That is the kind of thing anyone can observe.
Gil | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 9:05 am | #

The difference must be in the hallucinatory nature of marijuana, making you not think clearly. Besides being a stepping stone to hard core drug use.
Dave | 08.01.05 - 9:54 am | #

The difference must be in the hallucinatory nature of marijuana, making you not think clearly.

As opposed to alcohol, gat and Sifrei Kabole?!

Besides being a stepping stone to hard core drug use.

Probably not more so than alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, apart from the very fact that it's associated with illegality.
Lipman | 08.01.05 - 10:00 am | #

"Besides being a stepping stone to hard core drug use."

And cigarrettes aren't?
Aramis | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 10:05 am | #

I once heard it said in the name of the elder Rav Tendler that at the very end of RMF's life, when much more was known about the dangers of tobacco, RMF said that smoking tobacco was absolutely asur. (I don't know whether or not he made a hilluq allowing people who were already smokers to continue their forbidden habit.) However, RMF did not live to put this into writing.

Again, this is all mippi hasshemu`a; I have never asked Rav Tendler himself about this.
Mar Gavriel | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 10:06 am | #

"Besides being a stepping stone to hard core drug use."

And cigarrettes aren't?
Aramis

No.
Bobthebuilder | 08.01.05 - 10:07 am | #

"No"

Of course they are--in the same spurious way.

Show me a marijuania smoker and I'll show you a person who smokes cigarettes.
Aramis | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 10:27 am | #

That's not what you said.

Your point was that cigarette smoking leads to hard core drug use.

To that, I responded "no".
Bobthebuilder | 08.01.05 - 10:32 am | #

Aramis, you're being ridiculous. I'm not advocating cigarettes by any means, but ask the addiction counselors who work with hard core drug users. They say that almost all of them started with marijuana. When the effects of marijuana aren't as strong anymore, they go to the next step.
Dave | 08.01.05 - 10:36 am | #

Mycroft,
I don't think the Shomer Petaim Hashem Heter is Rav Bleich's Chiddush. i think Rav Moshe used the same line of reasoning in his Teshuvah, and Rav Moshe was NOT a chain smoker. Your taking the "personal aspects of psak" is very shady business...
E. K. Betach | 08.01.05 - 10:37 am | #

I believe it was all the way back in high school when i learned a teshuva of R' Moshe Feinstein about smoking. He laid out a certain number of reasons that when put together added up to smoking [tobacco] being permissible.

The most important of those reasons was "it has not [yet] been proven that it is harmful."

Now that it *has* been proven that smoking is harmful, i think it's pretty obvious what conclusion he would come to.

Btw, we should probably distinguish here between the effect of the *drug* and the effect of the *smoke*. Smoking is automatically harmful to the lungs; whether it's mutar or asur to put yourself into a 'stoned' state with an addictive substance is a separate issue. Someone could (and maybe have already?) come to the conclusion that while ingesting drugs is permissible, smoking them is forbidden. That would assur cigarettes, cigars and joints, but not 'special brownies' (assuming they're made kosher ;-) ) or nicotine gum.
Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 10:37 am | #

Message to smokers who quote Rav Moshe
Re Shomer Pesoim Hashem:

If I called you a fool you'd be insulted. The Godol Hador of the previous generation has paskened your a fool.
annonymous | 08.01.05 - 10:48 am | #

Gil, he does mention, though, that it involves an element of taavah and just based on that one should refrain from smoking cigarettes.
Literati | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 10:50 am | #

Lipman:

http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/c...ore/ cocaine.asp

by 1902 it was as little as 1/400 of a grain of cocaine per ounce of syrup. Coca-Cola didn't become completely cocaine-free until 1929, but there was scarcely any of the drug left in the drink by then:

By Heath's calculation, the amount of ecgonine [an alkaloid in the coca leaf that could be synthesized to create cocaine] was infinitesimal: no more than one part in 50 million. In an entire year's supply of 25-odd million gallons of Coca-Cola syrup, Heath figured, there might be six-hundredths of an ounce of cocaine.
SeriousSassy | 08.01.05 - 10:53 am | #

Dave,

I suspect that most anyone who uses marijuana or harder drugs also drank/drinks alcohol. And I suspect those same drug counselors would tell you that. So only grape juice?

Of course, marijuana today is supposedly much more potent then it was from the 60's.

What I don't understand is why the US still bars hemp because marijuana is its cousin. It was one of the great cash crops (not for drug reasons); the Constitution is written on hemp paper.
HAGTBG | 08.01.05 - 11:10 am | #

"They say that almost all of them started with marijuana. When the effects of marijuana aren't as strong anymore, they go to the next step."

No, they start with cigarettes. It's just that "addiction counselors who work with hard core drug users" apparently don't consider getting addicted to the legal but highly addictive narcotic nicotine, in the form of cigarette, to be a step before getting addicted to the drug marijuana. But find me the marijuana addicts who don't smoke, or didn't learn to smoke using plain old cigarettes.
Aramis | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 11:20 am | #

Bobthebuilder--

According to a newsletter from ASH (Action on Smoking and Health, http://ash.org), which I read about ten years ago, tobacco is a gateway drug, especially to marijuana (which opens the gate to further drugs).

And I agree with Steg that, regardless of what we may or may not know about the potential effects of any given substance, the act of smoking should be considered asur. (And, in fact, I do consider it asur.) This is one of the big differences between smoking tobacco and drinking alcohol: drinking is an inherently permitted action.
Mar Gavriel | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 11:25 am | #

Addictive behavior is forbidden-I guess I should stop going on hirhurim.
Male Repellant | 08.01.05 - 11:30 am | #

Perhaps my blog is less addictive. Have you seen it?

http://margavriel.blogspot.com
Mar Gavriel | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 12:11 pm | #

Yes-Nothing is as addictive as hirhurim.
Male Repellant | 08.01.05 - 12:26 pm | #

That fact that smoking is addictive can be observed, readily, by anyone who desires to know about smoking, and surely Rav Moshe knew this. Even very recently, Rabbi's who smoke excuse their behavior by saying that, "Quiting will interfere with my ability to learn, which is more important."


Even Mark Twain recognized the difficulty in quiting smoking, "Quiting Smoking is the easiest thing, I've done it a hundred times."


I think the real sore point here is that Rav Moshe avoided making an important halachic decision that could have saved the lives of many smokers, who took his words as gospel from above, and probably would have kicked the habit at his insistence, Just becuase he didn't want to ruffle the feathers of his colleagues, who smoked, and needed to maintained as above reproach.....shame, shame, shame, rav moshe.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 12:37 pm | #

and probably would have kicked the habit at his insistence...

Or, at least, they might have tried. Or maybe not. Rav Moshe pasqened that clapping is forbidden on Shabbos, like virtually all pre-chasidic poseqim (with the exception of the Tosofos on, is it Beitza 28b?) Yet you see hundreds of people, who respect him, neglecting that one.

Until his final days (see my previous post), Rav Moshe apparently thought that from a technical halakhic standpoint, it was permitted to smoke (rachamana litslan!). Did he believe in Da`as Toroh in non-halokhic matters, in the way that the contemporary chareidi litvish israeli velt feels about Rav Elyashiv? If not, he could not enforce what he did not believe to be a purely halakhic matter.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 12:42 pm | #

why is everybody assuming that drinking coffee etc. is obviously permissible. I have heard many rabbis say that it is not.
D | 08.01.05 - 12:44 pm | #

For a take on the current chareidi view on smoking this the links under the heading "Smoking" here - http:// www.chareidi.shemayisrael...hareidiview.htm
Joe Hardy | 08.01.05 - 12:46 pm | #

"I think the real sore point here is that Rav Moshe avoided making an important halachic decision that could have saved the lives of many smokers, who took his words as gospel from above, and probably would have kicked the habit at his insistence, Just becuase he didn't want to ruffle the feathers of his colleagues, who smoked, and needed to maintained as above reproach.....shame, shame, shame, rav moshe."

That's ridiculous. There are very few people who "took R. Moshe's words as gospel", notwithstanding some people's lip service. All that would have been necessary would be a some dissenting piskei halakha which permitted it and smokers would in good conscience ignore R. Moshe's pesak--they'd have no choice, addicts cannot just quit because a rabbi says they're violating halakha. What R. Moshe wanted to do was not spare his colleagues, but rather not issue a pesak to the community which would be observed mainly in the breach.
Aramis | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 12:48 pm | #

'Just becuase he didn't want to ruffle the feathers of his colleagues, who smoked, and needed to maintained as above reproach.....shame, shame, shame, rav moshe.'

I'm trying to remember seeing anywhere a more stupid comment.
Dave | 08.01.05 - 1:05 pm | #

Dave-- [deleted] But this one is certainly disrespectful, and does not fit the facts (either of smokers' physiological reactions or of the power/authoritry of Rav Moshe zatsa"l).

Edited By Siteowner
Mar Gavriel | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 1:16 pm | #

The quote you have from the marijuana t'shuva doesnt say becoming addicted to marijuana is ossur. The terrible prohibition is a reference to ben sorer umore; all the quote says is that one learns the evils of addiction from ben sorer umoreh. I.e. the quote is mussar not psak.

There is no conflict between these quotes.

And perhaps the parralel is simply this. The ben sorer umoreh has desire for food that leads him to rob etc.
How many people rob and kill for cigarettes?
How many rob and kill for drugs?
Thats the difference.
Everyone is addicted to food, to drink; not everyone is like the ben sorer umoreh and robs for *extra* food. Cigarette smokers realize that people are dependent anyway, and they have another necessity - cigarettes, their desire for cigarettes doesn't interfere w/ rational thought and lead them to rob to get more cigarettes, it doesnt even lead them to rob when deprived of cigarettes.
So maybe the lesson of ben sorer umoreh applies to addictions that lead to such behaviors, not addictions to eg exercise, cigarette smoking or anything else where people routinely *CAN* and DO cope w/ withdrawal w/o engaging in criminal behavior. Not all addictions are equal.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 1:16 pm | #

"I don't think the Shomer Petaim Hashem Heter is Rav Bleich's Chiddush. i think Rav Moshe used the same line of reasoning in his Teshuvah, and Rav Moshe was NOT a chain smoker"

Rabbi Bleich is not a chain smoker. He smokes a pipe.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 1:18 pm | #

"What R. Moshe wanted to do was not spare his colleagues, but rather not issue a pesak to the community which would be observed mainly in the breach."

Has it occured to any of you that he thought it was mutar?

Smoking a single cigarette is not dangerous. The health danger is in the long haul, and that means that it's almost impossible to say that cigarette smoking is ossur.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 1:32 pm | #

"why is everybody assuming that drinking coffee etc. is obviously permissible. I have heard many rabbis say that it is not."

how about tea?
chocolate?

mussar is not halacha. I dont think rmoshe says it's *ossur* to become addicted to anything.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 1:37 pm | #

Smoking a single cigarette is not dangerous.

I'm not sure that that's correct. For one thing, nicotine is inherently a poson. And for another, the act of inhaling smoke poses imminent danger to one's health. It won't be permanent, irreversible damage, but it will cause damage.
Mar Gavriel | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 1:42 pm | #

Actually the anonymous quote that all are bashing is mine...now it is just Pseudonymous. I do think the fact that smoking was not assured was a cop out by the gedolim of our time.

Firstly, Mar Gavriel, smokers are physiologically capable of quitting (I certainly did almost fifteen years ago) and I started smoking in yeshiva, as this was only moderately deemed unacceptable, and many of the rabbeyim smoked. Why this unhealthy behavior has not been halachicly neutralized is a mystery explained only by a generalized malaise in orthodoxy in which the status quo carries more weight than what is correct. And I do believe that labeling all the smoking rabbis as sinners did weigh heavily on the mind of all the poskim.

And to David, how could you call my comment stupid, what with that witty quote from twain and all. I’m deeply hurt and somewhat mystified; don’t you think social issues enter the mind of our rabbinate ? And if they are swayed to make poor decisions should they not be criticized ?
benavuyah | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 2:11 pm | #

Harei ani moseir moda`a lifneikhem that I personally asked Gil to edit my comment. May it not reflect badly on me that Gil "chose" to edit my words.

Thank you, Gil, for being so cooperative.
Mar Gavriel | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 2:14 pm | #

Benavuyah:

I'm sorry if I criticized your comment. I think that smoking is both asur and evil, and I agree that we should take all steps that we can in order to stamp it out.

But I'm not sure how much Rav Moshe realized at the time when he wrote his teshuvoth. Certainly, if the story about Rav Tendler is right, then I cannot blame Rav Moshe: when he thought that smoking wasn't so dangerous, he refused to rule that it was asur, but as soon as he realized the truth, he changed his pesaq accordingly.

By the way, shkoyekh on quitting smoking!
Mar Gavriel | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 2:17 pm | #

A related question:

Is it acceptible to derive benefit from selling addictive substances?

This is not a theoretical issue: The President/CEO of Loews, which owns Lorilard Tobacco, is on the board of Mesorah Heritage Foundation.
charliehall | 08.01.05 - 2:20 pm | #

'don’t you think social issues enter the mind of our rabbinate ? And if they are swayed to make poor decisions should they not be criticized ?'

I don't give a pass to just anybody who calls themself a rabbi, either. But there are cetain tzadikim who reach a certain level of tzidkus and who have refined their character and sense of emes to a level beyond what seems possible. Like Rabbi Wein says about the stories about the gedolim-you don't have to believe all of them, but they give you a sense of what the person was. They don't say those stories about you and me. So to make a comment like that-as if he's no better than some third rate politician-demonstrates a profound lack of awareness of who a true torah leader is.
Dave | 08.01.05 - 2:27 pm | #

"For one thing, nicotine is inherently a poson. And for another, the act of inhaling smoke poses imminent danger to one's health. It won't be permanent, irreversible damage, but it will cause damage."

it doesnt pose more of a danger to health than high fat food does or salt does, all of which have immediate detectable effect too. Actually, high salt food is more immediately dangerous than a single cigarette is!
Do you think anyone can asser eating a high fat/high cholesterol diet? High fat/cholestorel is only bad for you in the long run, and same w/ smoking.

"But I'm not sure how much Rav Moshe realized at the time when he wrote his teshuvoth. "

He could have realized everything known today and still not held that smoking is ossur. In fact it is relatively hard to make a coherent halachic case for smoking being ossur, because the damage is stastically over the long haul. You folks are really the ones who want a spirit of the law psak, not a halachic one.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 2:36 pm | #

I'd love to know the height and weight and exercise habits of the posters who think smoking is ossur.

Anyone who is overweight and out of shape and thinks he is sticking to vnishmarta more than someone who has a few cigs a day but is in excellent shape otherwise is deluding himself.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 2:37 pm | #

In fact it is relatively hard to make a coherent halachic case for smoking being ossur, because the damage is stastically over the long haul.

I think you are correct about this.

I also think that it is insulting to believe that R. Moshe Feinstein would give disingenuous sevara to prohibit something.
Gil | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 2:45 pm | #

All men are geniuses at rationalization -S. Freud
joel rich | 08.01.05 - 2:46 pm | #

mussar is not halacha. I dont think rmoshe says it's *ossur* to become addicted to anything.

Yes or no: Did R. Moshe Feinstein prohibit smoking pot?
Gil | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 2:48 pm | #

Correction: The tobacco company owned by Loews is spelled Lorillard. It is the oldest tobacco company in the US. Their original mill is still standing along the Bronx River in the New York Botanical Garden. Here is what I found on Lorillard's web site from http://www.lorillard.com/index.php?id=32

“All cigarettes are dangerous and smoking can cause serious diseases, including lung cancer. Cigarette smoking can also be addictive. Lorillard supports the continuing efforts of public health authorities to inform the public about the dangers of smoking. Lorillard believes that the public should pay attention to and rely upon the Surgeon General’s warning printed on every cigarette package and in every cigarette advertisement, as well as the wealth of other information provided by public health authorities in making informed decisions about smoking.”
charliehall | 08.01.05 - 2:51 pm | #

The Titz Eliezer says smoking is assur, R moshe only prohibited it if in a public place and people dont like it.BTW I heard from a talmid of R David Feinstein that 'shome pisuim Hashem' isn't a Heter. IT means if you do this then shomer pisuim Hashem ie your an idiot but go ahead beacuse G-d guards fools
ari | 08.01.05 - 3:07 pm | #

So I guess that anyone who crosses the street or drives on the highway is also an idiot because of "shomer pesa'im Hashem".
Gil | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 3:19 pm | #

Huh? Shaychis?
ari | 08.01.05 - 3:25 pm | #

Why is it mutar to put yourself in danger by crossing the street or driving on a highway? It is unquestionably dangerous. The answer: "shomer pesa'im Hashem" That someone who uses this permissibility is somehow stupid, I don't understand. That someone who smokes is stupid for other reasons, that I understand.
Gil | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 3:28 pm | #

No.It is not dangerous to do the things you mentioned.Shomer Pisuim is when something is dangerous and stupid.If there is no 'sakana' from a halacha perspective this is not dangerous
ari | 08.01.05 - 3:31 pm | #

It is not dangerous to do the things you mentioned.

It most certainly is dangerous. someone can be run over by a car or crashed into, has ve-shalom. These are very real dangers but because dashu beih rabim, we say "shomer pesa'im Hashem."
Gil | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 3:35 pm | #

"Yes or no: Did R. Moshe Feinstein prohibit smoking pot?"

I didnt read the tshuva, just your clip from it. He says this:

"Even moreso one cannot bring oneself to an even greater desire, especially for something for which there is no human need and is prohibited itself."

From which I deduce ("prohibited itself") yes, but not because it's addictive, but b/c it's ossur for some other reason.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 3:44 pm | #

Agav, i suspect he was misinformed about the risks of marijuana smoking.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 3:46 pm | #

Come on Gil-You know that's not fair-there are dangers in crossing the street, but crossing the street is not dangerous in and of itself. What are the odds of getting hit by a truck if one checks both ways before crossing? OTOH, the odds of dying from smoking? Is there a safe way to smoke? When your kids get older-what would you rather they do-cross the street or smoke(assuming no halakhic issues)?

BTW-Please check your e-mail. Thanx.
Male Repellant | 08.01.05 - 3:47 pm | #

"Why is it mutar to put yourself in danger by crossing the street or driving on a highway? It is unquestionably dangerous."

I think it has to be greater risk than that to come under the heading of halachic risk.
Hey eating is dangerous (you might choke)
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 3:47 pm | #

Gil I think you are incorrect.WHen we learned the sugyas of sakana a story was told of R Elyashiv who paskened that unless something is likely to happen there is no risk from any halachik view.(the story is unrelated and long and Im sorry that I cant write it)
ari | 08.01.05 - 3:49 pm | #

"From which I deduce ("prohibited itself") yes, but not because it's addictive, but b/c it's ossur for some other reason."

IOW, he can think pot is assur, and all of this:

"It seems that R. Feinstein is of the view that one may not intentionally make oneself addicted to a substance.

However, in his responsa regarding smoking cigarettes (Iggeros Moshe, Orah Hayim 2:49, Hoshen Mishpat 2:76), R. Feinstein does not once mention addiction when, to my knowledge, cigarettes are more addictive than marijuana."

is still irrelevant b/c he's not saying becoming addicted to anything is actually ossur, except as mussar learned from the example of the ben sorer u'moreh.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 3:49 pm | #

"In fact it is relatively hard to make a coherent halachic case for smoking being ossur, because the damage is stastically over the long haul.

I think you are correct about this".

While this certainly may be a distinction between what the Rambam lists in Hilchos Deos as advice and what he lists in Hilchos Rotzeach Ushmiras Nefesh as prohibited, doesn't the Teshuva of RMF about smoking seem to indicate that he learned the distinction was in the probability rather than the immediacy? If it were the latter, wouldn't he just make that Chilluk and not have to get into arguing with Dr. Rosner there over whether smoking causes sickness?
D.B. | 08.01.05 - 3:50 pm | #

Also acc. to you I should see this shomer pisuim hashem written much more often beacuse it applies to almost everything
ari | 08.01.05 - 3:50 pm | #

"I also think that it is insulting to believe that R. Moshe Feinstein would give disingenuous sevara to prohibit something."

It's also circular, as most of those rabbonim held it was mutar. Health effects of smoking have been known for a long time; there is more data now, but it's not as though there wasnt full awareness long before r moshe wrote this tshuva.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 3:52 pm | #

"I'm sorry if I criticized your comment. I think that smoking is both asur and evil, and I agree that we should take all steps that we can in order to stamp it out."

We should stamp out greasy kugel and cholent too.
They kill many more religious Jews than smoking does!
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 3:54 pm | #

BTW, Anonymous, do I know you from a different thread?
D.B. | 08.01.05 - 3:55 pm | #

The average Jewish kitchen is far more evil than the average tobaaconist.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 3:56 pm | #

Gil I think you are incorrect.WHen we learned the sugyas of sakana a story was told of R Elyashiv who paskened that unless something is likely to happen there is no risk from any halachik view.

I don't think this can be applied to all the cases in which "shomer pesa'im" is invoked, e.g. eating grapes and figs at night and using paper to wipe oneself.
Gil | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 3:57 pm | #

doesn't the Teshuva of RMF about smoking seem to indicate that he learned the distinction was in the probability rather than the immediacy?

What's the probability that any one cigarette will kill you? Very, very low. It is the cumulative effect of all the cigarettes and I don't know that a minor marginal danger is assur.
Gil | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 3:59 pm | #

SO when do YOU apply it?
ari | 08.01.05 - 3:59 pm | #

The average Jewish kitchen is far more evil than the average tobaaconist.

That's a gross exaggeration. Two packs a day is worse than a slice of kugel a week.
Gil | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 3:59 pm | #

I mean SHomer Pisuim, sorry
ari | 08.01.05 - 4:00 pm | #

IOW, he can think pot is assur

Then why?
Gil | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 4:00 pm | #

Anonymous, are you addicted to Kugel and Cholent? There are therapy groups for that too, you know.
D.B. | 08.01.05 - 4:01 pm | #

Gil wrote:

I don't know that a minor marginal danger is assur.

I don't know, either. But it certainly might be.
Mar Gavriel | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 4:01 pm | #

"Mycroft,
I don't think the Shomer Petaim Hashem Heter is Rav Bleich's Chiddush. i think Rav Moshe used the same line of reasoning in his Teshuvah, and Rav Moshe was NOT a chain smoker. Your taking the "personal aspects of psak" is very shady business...
E. K. Betach | 08.01.05 - 9:37 am |"
I heard it from Rabbi Bleich on a radio show-I don't recall him quoting RMF. RJD Bleich was a chain smoker.
mycroft | 08.01.05 - 4:03 pm | #

"e.g. eating grapes and figs at night and using paper to wipe oneself."

these are things that the gemara saw sakana in, and "nishtane hateva".
the fact that they dont seem dangerous to you is beside the point
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 4:03 pm | #

Why isn't downhill skiing assur? As should certainly be all ultrahazardous sports-yet many Yeshivas take their kids downhill skiing.
mycroft | 08.01.05 - 4:05 pm | #

"What's the probability that any one cigarette will kill you? Very, very low. It is the cumulative effect of all the cigarettes and I don't know that a minor marginal danger is assur."

Yeah, but he's talking about smoking 2 packs a day for 30 years too. If the distinction is immediacy/long haul - just say it. He seems to be saying that people chain smoke for 30 years and probably it won't hurt them.
D.B. | 08.01.05 - 4:05 pm | #

"RJD Bleich was a chain smoker."

I don't think he ever was a chain smoker or anything close to that (My parents know him since the 50s and say he wasn't). You say he was every time his p'sak on smoking comes up, accusing him of paskening on this for subjective reasons, but that doesn't make it so.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 4:08 pm | #

Speaking of sakana, what about eating fish and meat together?
Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 4:08 pm | #

"Rabbi Bleich is not a chain smoker. He smokes a pipe"
Dating myself or dementia is setting in-but I remember R. Bleich smoking very thin cigarrettes. He was much younger then than I am today.
mycroft | 08.01.05 - 4:09 pm | #

"Why isn't downhill skiing assur? As should certainly be all ultrahazardous sports-yet many Yeshivas take their kids downhill skiing".

I agree wholeheartedly. Lichorah, that's no different than walking under a Kosel Rau'a, and comes under Hilchos Shemiras Nefesh which are Issurim.

A kid once got his hands badly scalded from a hot cup of tea and the father went to R' Avig. Miller and asked what Aveira he did to deserve that. Rav Miller: "Pashut, the Aveira of leaving a hot cup of tea on the table unattended where a kid could get to it."
D.B. | 08.01.05 - 4:09 pm | #

"That's a gross exaggeration. Two packs a day is worse than a slice of kugel a week."

The average frum Jews diet is grossly unhealthy, every bit as unhealthy as smoking if not two than one pack a day. The further to the right one moves, the worse it is. Look at chassidim. What really is going on is that everyone is aware of health dangers of smoking and are oblivious to the health dangers of the typical heimish diet. One slice of kugel on shabbos hardly describes the heimish diet.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 4:11 pm | #

Aveira he did - meaning the father.
D.B. | 08.01.05 - 4:12 pm | #

IOW, he can think pot is assur

Then why?"

I don't know; he must say in the rest of the tshuva. (I speculated that he bases this on inaccurate medical info)
But he does distinguish, because he writes this:

"especially for something for which there is no human need and is prohibited itself."

so he is obviously not assering pot because it is addictive, otherwise he'd have no basis for saying "prohibited itself"
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 4:13 pm | #

Pot is no more addictive than chocolate or scotch. When I went to college, all you had to do was close your eyes, stick out your hand, and say "pot, please," and you would be handed at least a roach. It was low quality compared to what's available now, mostly stems and leaves as opposed to the resinous buds you can get now, but, as Mercutio said, t'would do and t'would suffice. And as Professor Timothy used to say, "chamra v'reichni pikchin (Yoma 76b)."
Leitzonoh 1 | 08.01.05 - 4:14 pm | #

"Anonymous, are you addicted to Kugel and Cholent? There are therapy groups for that too, you know."

No, I'm a health nut. I won't miss a chance to remind people that high fat diets, heavy on meat and low glycemic index starches and high fat dairy products are more unhealthy than smoking for a few years or even long term light smoking. I won't, however, go around saying that people who feed their families unhealthy foods on a regular basis are "Evil"! I won't either say that eating this way is ossur. Because many famous rabbonim eat this way and I lack courage!:-) If only there were "real" poskim who weren't so easily misled by their yetzer hara and could honestly pasken, then they'd agree with me.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 4:22 pm | #

The average frum Jews diet is grossly unhealthy, every bit as unhealthy as smoking if not two than one pack a day.

Granted. And it is incumbent on us to raise awareness about this danger, so that we can protect the frum community.

Nevertheless, I don't think that we can say that eating fatty kugel is asur, because the act of eating food (at least kosher food) is explicitly permitted by the Torah.

How, then, did Haza"l forbid certain things? (e.g. מר בריה דרבינא אסר אפילו במילחא, דקשיא לריחא ורילא קשיא לדבר אחר-- the meat/fish thing, from Pesahim 76b) Perhaps, they were not paskening on the basis of already-existing halakha (ונשמרתם or the like), but rather, they were innovating new gezeroth, which can forbid anything. (Note: this is all pure hypothesis. I haven't even spent that much time thinking about it.)

Do contemporary rabbis have the power to make gezeiroth? That's the 64,000-dollar question....
Mar Gavriel | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 4:22 pm | #

"Granted. And it is incumbent on us to raise awareness about this danger, so that we can protect the frum community."

And they can and should raise awareness about smoking too. But stigmatizing behavior doesn't equate to saying it's ossur.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 4:28 pm | #

Anonymous:

If we accept your distinction between long haul/ immediate harm, we're not going to forbid eating Oreos either. Its good advice.

I've heard Rav Shmuel Kamen. Shlit"a (who looks fantastic KA"H for a man of 80 - as do all the Kamenetzkys) and Rav Avigdor Miller Zt"l(who looked great at 90) give this advice numerous times in public. But they're no going to go around Assering it.

Its also hard to Asser because how much is too much is a very individual call.

My father, he should live and be well, was told by his doctor to continue his 5-7 cigarettes a day rather than quit, because the stress of not being able to smoke was harming him more than the few cigarettes a day.
D.B. | 08.01.05 - 4:33 pm | #

Addictive Behavior,like blogging
AMSHINOVER | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 4:36 pm | #

I believe a community can still impose civil penalties, as was often the case in European communities regarding shechita, but not corporal penalties or religious strictures.
By the way, Gil Student is an anagram for sin-glutted.
Leitzonoh 1 | 08.01.05 - 4:37 pm | #

"Nevertheless, I don't think that we can say that eating fatty kugel is asur, because the act of eating food (at least kosher food) is explicitly permitted by the Torah...the meat/fish thing, from Pesahim 76b)"

If a food is actually poisonous surely it's not a violation of vnishmartem?

my understanding is that they thought meat/fish posed some immediate danger. It doesn't make sense to understand this as a long-term danger, because the issue is eating these two foods together, not eating either or both separately. It's hard to think the combination of foods produces some sickness only over the long term (though I guess its theoretically possible, but seems implausible).
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 4:37 pm | #

I hate to be the one to state the obvious-but no one else has-so let me. With smoking, the two issues go hand-in-hand. It is extremely addictive, and so even though it may be true that one who only smokes occasionally is healthier than one who eats an unhealthy diet, the chances of smoking so rarely are low. A fairer comparison would be to a chain-smoker. Furthermore, it is easier to change eating habits than smoking habits because of the physical withdrawal.
Male Repellant | 08.01.05 - 4:40 pm | #

If a food is actually poisonous surely it's not a violation of vnishmartem?

It probably is. It is possibly also a violation of shefikhath damim (of oneself).

What about ODing on crack cocaine, which has a VERY high likelihood of killing you instantly?
Mar Gavriel | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 4:42 pm | #

"as told by his doctor to continue his 5-7 cigarettes a day rather than quit, because the stress of not being able to smoke was harming him more than the few cigarettes a day."

Exactly, the health dangers for someone who only smokes a few cigarettes a day are minimal, even over the long term. There is even some evidence that minimal smoking has some health benefit.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 4:44 pm | #

"If a food is actually poisonous surely it's not a violation of vnishmartem?"

errr...that should read "surely it is a violation"
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 4:45 pm | #

MR:

It seems that you are saying that smoking one cigarette is a gerama for smoking lots of cigarettes, and smoking lots of cigarettes is gerama for a violation of ונשמרתם (or possibly even shefikhath damim).

Is geram gerama of these violations prohibited?

Or perhaps, smoking lots of cigarettes is itself the עצם of these `aveiros, in which case smoking one cigarette is only one level of gerama away from the `aveiros, which should surely be forbidden.
Mar Gavriel | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 4:46 pm | #

"the chances of smoking so rarely are low. A fairer comparison would be to a chain-smoker. Furthermore, it is easier to change eating habits than smoking habits because of the physical withdrawal."

1. The reason there are so few people who smoke in moderation is that the campaign against smoking has been very effective, so effectively only addicts are left.

2. There are still many people who smoke quite moderately; I know quite a number.

3. Over fifty million americans presently alive have quit smoking. How many have successfully changed their diet? Not even close.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 4:49 pm | #

Eating a bowl of cholent, yerushalmi kugel and a pickle a week can't be any worse than 7 cigarettes a day.

Anyway, Neshama Yeseiras have good metabolism. :)
D.B. | 08.01.05 - 4:49 pm | #

I've heard Rav Shmuel Kamen. Shlit"a (who looks fantastic KA"H for a man of 80 - as do all the Kamenetzkys) and Rav Avigdor Miller Zt"l(who looked great at 90) give this advice numerous times in public. But they're no going to go around Assering it.

Actually, I was thinking the exact opposite. The Jewish Observer has an article in the current issue about how important it is to keep in shape. My initial impression upon reading that is that it is against ma'aseh rav. How many talmidei hakhamim are immensely overweight and never exercise?
Gil | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 4:50 pm | #

Here's a suggestion: Don't rely on my translation of a teshuvah that I did at 3:30 in the morning and instead look it up and judge for yourself.
Gil | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 4:52 pm | #

"Eating a bowl of cholent, yerushalmi kugel and a pickle a week can't be any worse than 7 cigarettes a day."

That's true, it's just that the normal diet tends to be more of the same. Not the same food, the same nutritional profile.

Cholent is actually pretty healthy, it's just calorie-dense.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 4:55 pm | #

I am very familier with the Teshuva you are quoting. He is not prohibiting it because of addictions, per se. He is prohibiting it because of the culture which surrounds marijuana and he wishes to protect the yeshiva from such things. If I remember correctly offhand, the teshuva concludes with a statement that this
"tumah" must be removed from our kehilos, or something to that effect.

Cigarettes, while severely harmful to one's health (causing cardiovascular, cerebrovascular, pulmonary, reproductive, cognitive, neurologic, immunologic, and malignant neoplastic diseases), is not seen as a gateway to harder drugs and is not necessarily associatd in the US with the hefker, licentious, narcissistic, rebellious, and criminal counterculture the way marijuana is. It is that culture which Reb Moshe is responding to.
Nachum Klafter | 08.01.05 - 4:56 pm | #

"How many talmidei hakhamim are immensely overweight and never exercise?"

Don't know. Obesity, is, like, you know, like, not really such a problem in LA.

RHS looks good, the Kamenetzkys look good, R' Aharon Schechter looks good, the Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva look generally good. The Novominsker looks good. Rabbi Willig keeps in shape. There are a few Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbonim who come to mind that are large, but are they the exception or the rule?
D.B. | 08.01.05 - 4:58 pm | #

"Here's a suggestion: Don't rely on my translation of a teshuvah that I did at 3:30 in the morning and instead look it up and judge for yourself."

For that, I'll have to wait till I am near seforim. Not enough sleep is also dangerous! Esp. over the long term. And in the short term too if you are driving and the like. Yet chazal say the torah is nikneis b'miut sheyna. See, chazal lacked courage to denounce the unhealthy habits of previous rabbonim :-)
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 5:00 pm | #

Kappotes make people look good, you can be forty pounds overweight in a kappote and "look good."
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 5:02 pm | #

"Kappotes make people look good, you can be forty pounds overweight in a kappote and "look good".

40 pounds, while not good, is still not "immensely overweight". That sounds more like 90 and up.
D.B. | 08.01.05 - 5:05 pm | #

"I've heard Rav Shmuel Kamen. Shlit"a (who looks fantastic KA"H for a man of 80 - as do all the Kamenetzkys)"
Bli eyan harah-I hope their life expectancy will be like their father's -of course I believe it is 50 years since their mother was niftar. Didn't realize Rav Shmuel K is 80 yet-although clearly some are over 80.
By the way in Rothkoffs book on the Rav-the first picture is of Rav Soloveitchik attending sheva brachos of R. Nason Kaminetsky _June 53?
mycroft | 08.01.05 - 5:06 pm | #

"Cigarettes....is not seen as a gateway to harder drugs and is not necessarily associatd in the US with the hefker, licentious, narcissistic, rebellious, and criminal counterculture"

*Maybe* true for adults.

Definitely not true for teenagers.

Also illegal per se for teenagers in the US.
charliehall | 08.01.05 - 5:07 pm | #

The Kamenetzkys, by the way, KA"H really look thin, trim and fit. So do R' Willig and R' Schachter. The others, can't say for sure. But its disrespectful to gauge that on them. (The Bnei Yisrael are chastised for noticing Moshe Rabbeinu's thick legs.)
D.B. | 08.01.05 - 5:10 pm | #

It was a rhetorical question. But if you really need to know, go to any beis medrash and look around at the 30+ crowd.
Gil | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 5:14 pm | #

"It was a rhetorical question. But if you really need to know, go to any beis medrash and look around at the 30+ crowd".

I'll have to head to NY for that. In LA people are more conscious about looking fat. Even in the Lakewood/Chassidishe Kollelim here, I would tend to think that the fat guys are in the small minority. But there are a few.

The JO article was probably addressed to precisely those 30+ Kollel guys in NY who are not doing what they should re exercise.
D.B. | 08.01.05 - 5:21 pm | #

"Also illegal per se for teenagers in the US."

buying it, but not possession.

If cigarettes are a gateway drug, it's only because smoking is stigmatized, so only rebellious types are smoking in the first place. Gateway drugs just mean that the same person who did X is going to do Y, not that the drug itself makes a person susceptible. There's a constellation of behavior that goes w/ personality type; you might as well say cigarettes cause teenagers to drive recklessly, because cigarette smoking teenagers (presumably) are more likely to drive recklessly. Cigarettes can only be a gateway drug if they so stigmatized that only reckless personalities smoke.

Even marijuana neednt be a gateway drug; if it were legalized, it wouldn't be. I'm in favor of legalization of marijuana. But that's a secular principle; as far as religion is concerned, R Moshe's tshuva highlights a real difference between marijuana and cigarettes, in that marijuana induces a different mental state. People smoke cigarettes while reading the newspaper, not pot.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 6:04 pm | #

Gil wrote:

>ma'aseh rav

This reminds me of two things:

1. We usually understand this phrase to mean "the action of a rav". If this is the correct understanding of the phrase, then it should be vocalized מַעֲשֵׂה רַב, with a tseire under the shin semŏlith (a letter that is more popularly known as sin, but we try to avoid sin in Judaism.:)) And indeed, that is how I pronounced the phrase for many years. However, I recently came across a passage of Tosofos (on `Avodha Zara 66b) where this phrase is used as an independent sentence: בלאַ בלאַ בלאַ בלאַ בלַא ומעשה רב: blah blah blah blah blah and מעשה רב. I realized at once that the phrase was to be vocalized as וּמַעֲשֶׂה רַב, with a seghol under the shin semŏlith/sin, and an ever-so-slight pause between the words. (If the Tosafistic passage had טעמי המקרא, there would be a tifHa on the word ומעשה.) The meaning of this two-word phrase, when used as a sentence, is: and an incident is great, or an incident is significant [in determining pesaq].

2. On Shabbos, I was having a conversation with my good friend TK. At one point, TK mentioned that he had heard stories of rabbis in 19th-century Europe who could not determine the proper blessing for sugar, and therefore refrained from eating it. TK did not like this attitude; he said: "In halakha, we have an answer to the question of what you don't when you don't know the proper berakha for a certain food. The answer is NOT don't eat the food; rather, the answer is say She-hakkol. I said: "Well, I'm not so sure that their action was so bad, after all. Haven't you ever seen pictures of some of these rabbis? It would probably do them good to avoid sugar."
Mar Gavriel | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 6:09 pm | #

"(The Bnei Yisrael are chastised for noticing Moshe Rabbeinu's thick legs.)"

no, they are chastised for saying he looks prosperous and that must be because he is taking their donations for the mishkan and benefitting from them.
they arent complaining about his looks, if anything, the implication is to the contrary.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 7:55 pm | #

Nowadays, overweight is associated with lower socioeconomic status so the case is almost reversed.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 7:59 pm | #

sEE 'Encyclopedia of Jewish Medical Ethics by A.S teinberg for excellent review on smoking.
When R.Moshe wrote his teshuvos the research data on smoking addiction was not complete.
The companies admitted only recently when they made their deals.,about the addiction.
In Israel in yeshivas it is sad to see so many smokers.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 8:21 pm | #

last post was me.
daat y | 08.01.05 - 8:23 pm | #

While marijuana is not physically addicting like herion,it can cause psychological addiction and 'amotivational syndrome.'
daat y | 08.01.05 - 8:27 pm | #

mycroft -
I've heard (eid mipi eid) that R' Willig does assur skiing.
Reuven | 08.01.05 - 8:48 pm | #

"(The Bnei Yisrael are chastised for noticing Moshe Rabbeinu's thick legs.)"

no, they are chastised for saying he looks prosperous and that must be because he is taking their donations for the mishkan and benefitting from them.
they arent complaining about his looks, if anything, the implication is to the contrary.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 6:55 pm "

No. Look in Yalkut Shimoni to Shmos Perek 33 (end of letter 393): (from Yerushalmi Shekalim) to "VeHibitu Acharei Moshe".

"Chad Omar Lignai - Chomu Shakei, Chamu Karei, Achul Hu MiYehudai VeShasei MiYehudai,"

Peirush on the bottom: "Peirush Re'u Shokav Veraglav Eich Hu Shomein".

They're complaining about his corpulence.
D.B. | 08.01.05 - 8:48 pm | #

Let me clarify that. Not necessarily that they are complaining he's corpulent per se, but they shouldn't be noticing his legs at all. That's how R' Avigdor Miller explains this Yerushalmi.
D.B. | 08.01.05 - 8:51 pm | #

Yes or no: Did R. Moshe Feinstein prohibit smoking pot?

His son told me (when I asked him if one could fulfil ad d'lo ya'da with marijuana) that it's a mitzva ha'bah b'aveirah.
MYG | Homepage | 08.01.05 - 9:04 pm | #

You mistake the criticism you are so careful to cite! They are complaining about how he good he looks because :

"Achul Hu MiYehudai VeShasei MiYehudai,"

how did he get to look this way? By stealing our food.

If R Miller explains it your way, he is misreading or going off on a tangent of his own device that doesn't fit the obvious implication of the text, because there is no such implication in the text and he has imposed it entirely on it.

It's a midrash tanchuma on vaybitu acharei moshe; rashi brings it in kiddushin. Every time this is brought the emphasis is on his looking as though he is prosperous by taking jews money, the tanchuma ends:

keyvan she'shoma moshe kach, omar lohem chayeychem mishe'ha'mishkon nigmar, ani oseh imachem cheshbon, she'ne'emar v'eyleh pikudei hamishkon.

There is no implication that it is wrong for them to notice or comment, and they are commenting on good not bad looks; the implication is that they are accusing him of living the good life on embezzled money.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 9:08 pm | #

"They're complaining about his corpulence."

No, they are saying he is rich-looking. He looks too healthy; he is living the high life on their money.

L'havdil, this is roughly analogous to reporters who snort that Bush is so fit, he exercises so much, and imply (most recently jonothan chait, who is explicit about this criticism) that he exercises at the taxpayers expense instead of attending to his presidential duties.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 9:13 pm | #

Yes. But they are doing it in a crude way by noticing his fat legs.

They could say - we think Moshe is stealing. He obviously wasn't, so when they notice his fat legs (which obviously was an "item of discussion" beforehand for these Leitzanim) it is just a way of saying - Moshe's getting plump - from our money (yes that's the main point, but the fact that they use his corpulence is underlined). The Gemara is saying that it is wrong to criticize Moshe of embezzling, but in doing so it is also saying - "its none of your business what Moshe's legs look like."
D.B. | 08.01.05 - 9:16 pm | #

No it isn't. This interpretation is based on confusion due to contemporary mores. Corpulence is *good* for the tanchuma, and it's clear thruout chazal that corpulence was a sign of prosperity. They are not criticizing moshe's looks, they are saying he looks good. If they weren't accusing him of stealing, they'd be only praising moshe. They are not differnt than YOU saying that the Kaminestskys et al look good.

"The Kamenetzkys, by the way, KA"H really look thin, trim and fit. So do R' Willig and R' Schachter. The others, can't say for sure. But its disrespectful to gauge that on them. (The Bnei Yisrael are chastised for noticing Moshe Rabbeinu's thick legs.)"

The above is obviously based on the idea that they are critizing moshe's looks, not praising them, but they are praising his looks. There is no implication in this midrash that they were wrong to notice
moshe's looks.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 9:26 pm | #

OK, that's your opinion. Rav Miller has a few minutes on tape of how its unthinkable to point out how much your Rosh Yeshiva eats, or how fat he is, based on this Gemara. There is a subtle undercurrent that they shouldn't be talking about or noticing his looks at all, acc. to Rav Miller.

Maybe I shouldn't have said that about the Kamenetzkys etc., but it was as a solely complimentary thing after Gil implied that T"C don't do the right thing.
D.B. | 08.01.05 - 9:34 pm | #

WADR, Rabbi Miller is incorrect, or rather, he can't base it that attitude on this midrash. The clear implication is that the problem is that they are suspicious of him.

There is no implication beyond one's own rosh yeshiva and/or the gadol hador, even if R Miller was correct. Unless the problem is loshon hara or something of that nature, in which case one hardly needs this midrash to buttress the complaint. If the problem is as R Miller understands, the problem would be loshon hara, or kovod t"c, so where does he get some specific injunction from this midrash not to speak about your rosh yeshiva's looks more than is implied in general halachos of loshon hara, or hilchos kibud t"c. R Miller's point (taking your word for his pshat) is based on a misreading that being fat is a negative - they are clearly praising moshe's fine, healthy looks.
There is no new injunction in this midrash. Either they are looking l'shvach, or l'gnai. If there is gnai, there is no new injunction to be learned.

"we think Moshe is stealing. He obviously wasn't, so when they notice his fat legs '

the yerushalmi introduces this w/ psal l'cho shney luchos, shetehey hapsoles shelcho, that he became rich from it. V'hibitu achrei moshe, they murmered that he was getting rich from their donations, but the idea in yerushalmi is that he *was* getting rich.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 10:01 pm | #

"Maybe I shouldn't have said that about the Kamenetzkys etc., but it was as a solely complimentary thing"

As I say, there is no problem in saying something complimentary (unless you were trying to imply that they misuse funds for liposuction, or exercise instead of learn, etc) except insofar as praise is lifnei iver, ie the likely response is that most of them don't all look nearly as good as you say they do:-) I was quite tempted to point this out, but realized that Gil or someone else would probably object to person by person weight analysis.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 10:05 pm | #

"OK, that's your opinion. Rav Miller has a few minutes on tape of how its unthinkable to point out how much your Rosh Yeshiva eats, or how fat he is, based on this Gemara. There is a subtle undercurrent that they shouldn't be talking about or noticing his looks at all, acc. to Rav Miller."


Is R Miller also on tape saying that if a rosh yeshiva says something, no one can say it is wholly unsupported and based on a misreading; what appears to be a misreading must be a "subtle" undercurrent that lesser lights miss in their zeal to actually read the midrash correctly?

I hate that attitude, truly - if you can defend the reading, go right ahead, but "he is too fat" is an anachronistic misreading
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 10:36 pm | #

Fine, fine. Don't get all uptight about it. Gee whiz.
D.B. | 08.01.05 - 11:07 pm | #

"ie the likely response is that most of them don't all look nearly as good as you say they do I was quite tempted to point this out".

You actually did:

"Kappotes make people look good, you can be forty pounds overweight in a kappote and "look good."
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 4:02 pm '
D.B. | 08.01.05 - 11:11 pm | #

'marijuana induces a different mental state.'

so does wine
charliehall | 08.01.05 - 11:33 pm | #

"You actually did:"

I was tempted to do so by name!
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 11:49 pm | #

Terrible of you. :) Are you the same Anonymous as the Strolling thread. You have the same style.
D.B. | 08.01.05 - 11:56 pm | #

strolling thread? strolling on the beach?
don't remind me.
Anonymous | 08.02.05 - 12:36 am | #

I left one more post there for you. It is of interest to you,as I found another Teshuva which proves you right, assuming you are you, which is, third base!!!
D.B. | 08.02.05 - 1:22 am | #

MG-I don't know, I was not paskening the halakha-just pointing out the obvious. Anonymous-Yes there are people who smoke moderately(I'm no doctor but I think even that is dangerous) and even occasionally. However, I know just as many people who began smoking occasionally and could not stop it from escalating-and once they reach that stage have a lot of trouble going back-it is much harder to change. Let's use this example-Many people like to drink alcohol or eat comfort foods. Sometimes people turn to these and consume more of it when stressed out-and then kick the habit. While this may be hard to kick, it is not nearly as hard as someone who starts using cigarettes that way: Once the stress is gone, the addiction is very much there.
Male Repellant | 08.02.05 - 8:10 am | #

Though I'm usually skeptical about studies on smoking and health (many turned out to be paid by interested parties), moderate pipe smoking has been proven to be connected to a higher life expectancy.

IIRC, 'moderate' was defined as some four or five bowls a day, which, to me, seems pretty much. (I'm smoking between zero and four bowls a week.)

I wrote that it is connected, not that pipe smoking effects this. Maybe it's simply because people who tend to smoke pipes are calmer, more balanced etc., which in turn prolongs life. The question would be about the same people's life expectancy without pipes - maybe longer (no harmful substances), maybe shorter (less nicotine [!], less equilibrium)

 ~ °|
[ 8~)»
Lipman | 08.02.05 - 9:01 am | #

The question would be about the same people's life expectancy without pipes

Perhaps you should do an experiment yourself.

In any event, I heard somewhere that the relaxation associated with smoking actually is due to the inhalation of air, and can be accomplished without the tobacco.
Mar Gavriel | Homepage | 08.02.05 - 9:07 am | #

Perhaps he didn't consider it addictive because he saw people being able to stop smoking for the 25-hour period of Shabbat?
Yisrael Medad | Homepage | 08.02.05 - 9:19 am | #

mycroft said: "Never underestimate the personal aspect of psak-R. JD Bleich a chain smoker says smoking permissible because shomer ptaim hashem-Bleich for example is I believe groundbreaking on what deaf people can do."

I agree. And, I met a Moshe Bleich who is hearing impaired. I am 95% sure Moshe Bleich's father is R. JD Bleich. Interesting.
SephardiLady | 08.02.05 - 10:32 am | #

Haven't there been studies connecting second-hand smoke and childhood ear-infections? And can't ear infections be a cause of hearing problems?
Mar Gavriel | Homepage | 08.02.05 - 10:42 am | #

Haven't heard about this, but then again, my father hk"m was a heavy smoker...
Lipman | 08.02.05 - 10:45 am | #

Lipman, did you have ear infections as a child?
Mar Gavriel | Homepage | 08.02.05 - 10:48 am | #

It is interesting that when it comes to addictive behavior people think of smoking and marijuana, yet not one has mentioned gambling, the lotto, and type of investments that could almost be considered gambling in many cases.

Interesting.
SephardiLady | 08.02.05 - 11:03 am | #

Lipman, did you have ear infections as a child?

Never, b"h, but I really don't want to play down how harmful smoking is.

My father hk"m had his first heart attack at 48, a stroke at 67, and was nifter at 69. My grandmother o"h, also a regular smoker, lived to be 93. My grandfather, also a regular smoker, died from a brain tumor at 49.

Anyway, I always found cigarettes between unpleasant and disgusting, and never smoked a single one.
Lipman | 08.02.05 - 11:17 am | #

yet not one has mentioned gambling, the lotto, and type of investments that could almost be considered gambling in many cases.

You just did.
Mar Gavriel | Homepage | 08.02.05 - 11:38 am | #

If smoking and gambling are really manifestations of the same mental state (addiction), should we extend the pěsūl lā`ēdhūth of משׂחקי קוביא to smokers?
Mar Gavriel | Homepage | 08.02.05 - 11:46 am | #

"(The Bnei Yisrael are chastised for noticing Moshe Rabbeinu's thick legs.)"

It may be that the source of Rav Miller's reading is the fact that the gemara in kiddushin could not bring itself to mention what those Jews said. If it was just the embezzlement factor, the Gemara has places where it mentions openly that the Jews suspected Moshe of worse acts.
Anon1 | 08.02.05 - 12:04 pm | #

The gemara in BM considers corpulence a maala, amaraim saying that when they are together an ox can walk underneath them, etc. Even R Yochanan who is considered so good looking is described as a baal bosor in brochos 13 - he is too fat to turn over, is the thought over there.
Anonymous | 08.02.05 - 2:17 pm | #

"I left one more post there for you. It is of interest to you,as I found another Teshuva which proves you right, assuming you are you, which is, third base!!!"

What tshuva is this?

"third base"???
Anonymous | 08.02.05 - 2:22 pm | #

"The gemara in BM considers corpulence a maala, amaraim saying that when they are together an ox can walk underneath them, etc. Even R Yochanan who is considered so good looking is described as a baal bosor in brochos 13 - he is too fat to turn over, is the thought over there".

I don't know that the Gemara in Bava Metzia is saying that its a Maala. And Rav Yochanan had a beautiful face and skin, don't know about the corpulence necessarily being part of the equation.

I don't remember where the Teshuva is , but it is a Teshuva to R' gleenblatt about reciting Krias Shma in front of Nochrios with uncovered hair, and Kol Isha by Nochrios. That should be enough to go on. (Though I gotta tell you, ROY in his Teshuva forbidding miniskirts seems to be concerned about more than Histaklus). Its not fair to talk about this anymore. Just post here "ROY - relevant/irrelevant/maybe" and that will be that. I won't have any rejoinders on that issue. (Sorry Simcha. Just tying up a loose end.)

"Third base" is a reference to an Abbott and Costello routine "Who's on first". ("Assuming you are you" triggered that). :)
Anony | 08.02.05 - 3:10 pm | #

The posts lately (Anon1, Anony) are from me, but I told Gil I would get off for a while. I'm not adding to any more discussions, just ending ones I've started.
D.B. | 08.02.05 - 3:12 pm | #

"I don't know that the Gemara in Bava Metzia is saying that its a Maala. And Rav Yochanan had a beautiful face and skin, don't know about the corpulence necessarily being part of the equation."

my point was that the gemara doesnt shy from mentioning it as per the anon1 comment; they dont seem to view it as a pejorative at all. w / r yochanon, it doesnt interfere w/ his being thought the epitome of beauty. In contemporary society, an obese person would not be the epitome of beauty. It is separately clear that it is considered a maala, in that it is a sign of health and prosperity.
Anonymous | 08.02.05 - 3:35 pm | #

I'll look up the tshvua; thanks for the reference.

ROY: probably irrelevant (wrt your last comment, I meant shomer negiah is not an issue, as in those groups, there is no middle category of "handholding only"- when histaklus leads, it leads to worse.)

" "Third base" is a reference to an Abbott and Costello routine "Who's on first". "

One reliable difference between women and men is that women don't appreciate Abbott and Costello :-)
Anonymous | 08.02.05 - 3:45 pm | #

"Bleich for example is I believe groundbreaking on what deaf people can do."

I think this is a stretch. He may have been one of the first people to discuss deaf people in the modern era at length, but I dont think his stance is controversial or nonmainstream.

Theres a lot of innunendo in this thread about subjective, personal factors influencing psak that doesnt seem to hold up to much analysis.
Anonymous | 08.02.05 - 3:50 pm | #

"my point was that the gemara doesnt shy from mentioning it as per the anon1 comment".

The Gemara mentions other stuff on the same Amud that if anyone would mention about their Rabbeim they would be put in Cherem. Tosfos there explains why the Gemara brought up this stuff.

Rav Yochanan is debateable. See next paragraph. (BTW, see Maharsha Chiddushei Aggados BM there for expl. of Mikve story - just need image in mind)

In the Moshe Rabbeinu story, let me emphasize that I'm not saying that fat=bad. I'm saying its not something you should be gauging on your Rebbe at all.
D.B. | 08.02.05 - 4:00 pm | #

"Theres a lot of innunendo in this thread about subjective, personal factors influencing psak that doesnt seem to hold up to much analysis".

One of the most maddenning things to me is when people say that his Psak on Yishuv haaretz being a Mitzvah Kiyumis was influenced by his own living in America. It is a display of Zionism (and I have warm feelings for Relig. Zionism) coloring any ability to see things clearly, to the point where they'll say things that border on, or go over the line, to losing your share in Olam Haba.
D.B. | 08.02.05 - 4:05 pm | #

"The Gemara mentions other stuff on the same Amud that if anyone would mention about their Rabbeim they would be put in Cherem. Tosfos there explains why the Gemara brought up this stuff."

Tosfos explains why the gemara brought up this *other* stuff (and I submit to you that anyone mentioning that for any reason today would still be in cherem, justification or not).

"Rav Yochanan is debateable. See next paragraph"

The next paragraph proceeds to say he was beautiful. the only limitation on his beauty is his lack of beard, not corpulence. This proves my point, it doesnt refute it or turn an entirely obvious point into something that is "debatable."

"BTW, see Maharsha Chiddushei Aggados BM there for expl. of Mikve story - just need image in mind)"

The maharsha is irrelevant. He says that having the image in mind is like the incident w/ the sheep, more than that is indeterminate. I refer you back to the psukim.

"In the Moshe Rabbeinu story, let me emphasize that I'm not saying that fat=bad. I'm saying its not something you should be gauging on your Rebbe at all."

This is what you're saying now in a valiant attempt to salvage the vort, not what you began by saying. You began by praising how specific people look, and then citing the midrash on Moshe as evidence that one shouldn't comment on how fat someone is; this rather indicates that you understood the diyuk as based on the notion that they were criticizing moshe. You followed this up w/ a statement from R Miller about not talking about how much your rebbi eats, or how fat he is, also based on the notion that it's a pejorative.
You then modified the vort, so that the notion became that one shouldn't talk about ones rebbis appearance or habits at all, but this is not indicated by any of the midrashim or the gemara, and we see nowhere else that describing something considered admirable about ones rebbi is wrong. It's a bit absurd -- the idea is supposed to be that mentioning something positive about Moshe's appearance was so bad - worse than the other insinuations bnei yisroel make that are recorded, and worse than accusing him of embezzling - that the gemara couldn't record it???
Your "proof" is that elsewhere the gemara records complaints of bnei yisroel similar to the notion here that moshe was embezzling, so the reason the gemara in kiddushin might not be explicit is the mention of moshe's looks; this is contradicted by the fact that the gemara mentions that people are corpulent fairly frequently, doesn't consider corpulence a pejorative, and in the midrash itself it's a sign of health.
You also are trying to support this w/ digressions that corpulence is not really a positive or considered a sign of health, but that is a dead end.
The vort is dead, it's mistaken, we don't need a 300 comment thread to support a misreading of the midrash.
Anonymous | 08.02.05 - 6:52 pm | #

"(The Bnei Yisrael are chastised for noticing Moshe Rabbeinu's thick legs.)"

It may be that the source of Rav Miller's reading is the fact that the gemara in kiddushin could not bring itself to mention what those Jews said. If it was just the embezzlement factor, the Gemara has places where it mentions openly that the Jews suspected Moshe of worse acts."

And what is even the hava amina here? Rashi says that the gemara doesn't mention the story explicitly because it doesn't want to be mefarsem a dovor megana. You say, ta'anos like the one accusing moshe of embezzling are mentioned other places, therefore the dovor megunah must be their noticing his looks. Yet the story is brought in yerushalmi! Is yerushalmi less squeamish than the bavli? No, Rashi is saying that the gemara doesn't wish to mention the story needlessly, where it is peripheral. In kiddushin, we are only discussing the shvach, how long to stand for a talmid chochom. But if we are discussing the pshat in v'hibitu acharei moshe, the full story would be repeated, as it is elsewhere. This is not a raaya that we are dealing here with a worse or different gnai than anything gnai mentioned elsewhere, it's just that it's not relefvant here, so all things being equal we are not mefarsem this attack on moshe. This is certainly not a raaya that the dovor megune the gemara doesnt want to mention here is something that elsewhere carries no gani at all.
Anonymous | 08.02.05 - 7:07 pm | #

:)

Fine, fine. Don't get all uptight about it. Gee whiz.
D.B. | 08.01.05 - 10:07 pm |

200 mph gusts of wind were emanating from an Anonymous source this afternoon after she blew her top. Sheesh!

1) You will notice that from the beginning I said that Bnei Yisrael are chastised for noticing his thick legs. You assumed, since I praised the Kamenetzkys, that this meant that it was wrong to comment on the negative aspect of this. You are correct that this is what I came away with from the Rav Miller tape. I subsequently broadened my original statement to a meaning which it bears - which is what Rav Miller actually said - that it is wrong to notice and gauge at all, which is why I allowed that I was wrong in commenting about the Kamenetzkys. That's what happened.

2) The next paragraph - I meant my own, not in the Gemara.

3) If you look at the Tosfos carefully you will see that he is addressing the issue of how corpulent people have children. Look at the Chochmas Shlomo in back of the Gemara on the Tosfos.
(Why the Dibbur HaMaschil is what it is is a question, but the Chochmas Shlomo clearly understood the Tosfos to be dealing with that issue)

4) The main issue you have skirted is that you have provided no alternative reason as to why the gemara did not mention it, as according to you the ONLY thing wrong here is the embezzlement accusation, not the crudeness of the way they put it.
D.B. | 08.02.05 - 7:19 pm | #

I submit to you that if it were just "Shechashduhu BeMeila" - its not a big deal. But the image in your mind of two Leitzanim following Moshe lumbering along, saying "look at his fat legs and neck, he's getting plump off of us" is one that the Gemara finds distasteful in arousing. Using Moshe's physical appearance - healthy or not - in the context of an accusation against him is gross.

And the truth is, that by extension, using a Gadol's physical appearance in the context of an accusation against him that he does not exercise enough or eats too much is just as gross.
D.B. | 08.02.05 - 7:34 pm | #

I'm not angry, for goodness sakes, just irritated/frustrated w/ what looks to be a waste of time, demonstrating the obvious.

1. I know - but your synopsis of what he says on tape gives one other example, how much he eats, which is also a pejorative. For ex, "my rebbe is very ascetic" doesn't have the same connotation, and is not wrong to notice or comment on, as per r. tzadok. Nevey tzaddikim yevorach, is chizkayhu etc. To not notice at all, where is torah hi vlilmod ani tzorich. To notice and comment on the opposite is to not comment on their fine qualities, and no one has ever said that you can't be m'shabeyach your rebbe.

2. It's still not debatable. The midrash is definitely assuming that fat=healthy.

3. I have no idea what you are talking about, once again. The first chochmas shlomo is discussing why they said shelohen gadol mishelonu. The second one is not discussing tosfos at all, it's discussing the gemara. He is giving an alternate pshat, that the concept is greater taava. Neither is explaining tosfos, or addresses the issue at hand.

4. The main issue is the embezzlement issue; the fact that the gemara mentions elsewhere things of this nature is no more significant than the fact that the yerushlami mentions the entire episode. It mentions such an accusation against moshe when relevant, not when peripheral.
Anonymous | 08.02.05 - 7:41 pm | #

"I submit to you that if it were just "Shechashduhu BeMeila" - its not a big deal. But the image in your mind of two Leitzanim following Moshe lumbering along, saying "look at his fat legs and neck, he's getting plump off of us" is one that the Gemara finds distasteful in arousing. Using Moshe's physical appearance - healthy or not - in the context of an accusation against him is gross."

Ummm, meila is a much bigger deal. Meila is an issur, and being fat is not!!! Any added factor here has nothing to do w/ commenting on his appearance per se. It has to do with following him around and looking for flaws and trying to trump up stuff against him.

The distinction you are trying to make, I think (but not quite making b/c you also are conceding that the comment itself is not l'gnai), is that the accusation of meila is untrue, and this one is true, so it must be a gnai that the gemara doesnt want to discuss. But how do you think chazal knew moshe was fat? Because they assumed it was a good thing, that is why they thought that vhibitu acharei moshe would be looking and noticing that he looks rich and healthy.

"And the truth is, that by extension, using a Gadol's physical appearance in the context of an accusation against him that he does not exercise enough or eats too much is just as gross."

actually that was not the context, the context was that Gil said that he thinks telling people to exercise might contradict maase rav. There was no accusation, and it's a point l'toeles.
Anonymous | 08.02.05 - 7:51 pm | #

3. You're right, he is relating to "Shelo LeHotzee Laaz" from the Gemara, not from Tosfos. Sorry.
D.B. | 08.02.05 - 7:55 pm | #

"And the truth is, that by extension, using a Gadol's physical appearance in the context of an accusation against him that he does not exercise enough or eats too much is just as gross."

"actually that was not the context, the context was that Gil said that he thinks telling people to exercise might contradict maase rav. There was no accusation, and it's a point l'toeles."

Right, but when I made my comment I was saying that I didn't want to get into which Rosh Yeshiva looked plump becaue of the story with Moshe, it was in light of your comments that it was wrong of them not to eat healthy.
D.B. | 08.02.05 - 8:01 pm | #

I said that it was wrong of roshei yeshiva not to eat healthy? I said that frum people in general have a poor diet.
Anonymous | 08.02.05 - 8:10 pm | #

I won't, however, go around saying that people who feed their families unhealthy foods on a regular basis are "Evil"! I won't either say that eating this way is ossur. Because many famous rabbonim eat this way and I lack courage! If only there were "real" poskim who weren't so easily misled by their yetzer hara and could honestly pasken, then they'd agree with me.
Anonymous | 08.01.05 - 3:22 pm | #


Ahem.
D.B. | 08.02.05 - 8:24 pm | #

After "Because many famous rabbonim eat this way and I lack courage!"

there is a smiley face that doesn't paste.

The smiley face is an indication that it is a joke.

The idea here is that people are saying that R moshe would have assered smoking, but he didn't because rabbonim smoke.
My point was that this is circular, as they smoke b/c they think it is mutar.
If *I* personally have a hangup with healthy diet, that doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't follow my prescriptions is committing some issur, and a massive coverup is going on.
IOW I was saying that they have the right to eat however they like.

Now, you want my opinion? they should eat better. So should everyone. Now that it's being discussed, I'd even say that if they made a big move in this direction, it would have impact, as they are role models. It's hard to change eating habits, people also invest the heimishe diet w/ all sorts of pseudo-spiritual qualities (kugel begamatria shabbos, etc etc) and are very attached to it. If role models are also sticking w/ relatively unhealthy diet, it makes it harder for the general population to change. I fail to see how the midrash you bring has any bearing on this point, one I didn't make up until now.
Anonymous | 08.02.05 - 8:41 pm | #

(kugel begamatria shabbos, etc etc)

Huh? The only way I can figure out how to make that hheshbon work is to use gemaTriyya of מספר קטן, and to misspell קוגל. Thus:

שבת = 3+2+4, i.e. 9
קֻגל = 1+3+3, i.e. 7

Oh, wait-- that doesn't work. So then we have to add the number of letters in the (misspelled) word kugel, in this case 3. Thus, we have:

שבת = 9
קֻגל = 10

So, that's still off by one. But we have a principle, enunciated by the Rishonim in a number of places, such as the פירוש הרי"ד on דצ"ך עד"ש באח"ב in the Paschal Telling (הגדה של פסח): ובגימטריא לא קָפְֿדִינַן על אחת יָתֵר או חָסֵר.
Mar Gavriel | Homepage | 08.02.05 - 9:41 pm | #

I see you are takke a misnagid. The joke is Shtimt nisht? Ess noch a shtickl.
Anonymous | 08.02.05 - 9:50 pm | #

Ikh hob gegessen, ober di kugl hot tsu fil shmalts. Kugl iz besser ven er iz parve.
Mar Gavriel | Homepage | 08.02.05 - 9:56 pm | #

IIRC, in chabad, flegt min iber zoggen fun alter rebben zt"l az der siba az m'blost nisht shofar rosh hashonna shechal lihiyos bshabbos iz as m'ken mer uftohn mit essen kugel vie mit tekios.
Anonymous | 08.02.05 - 10:05 pm | #

"Theres a lot of innunendo in this thread about subjective, personal factors influencing psak that doesnt seem to hold up to much analysis"."
Subjective personal factors does not equal-bad motives or dishonesty. Every human being is influenced by subjective factors.
mycroft | 08.02.05 - 11:07 pm | #

subjective factors also lead to people deciding that other people render psak on subjective basis. That's why one has to make a case that holds up objectively. The ones in this thread don't seem to.
Anonymous | 08.02.05 - 11:16 pm | #

Ikh in gantzen farshtei nisht der vort fun Alter Rebben. Kugel mit an "Ayin" tz'vishin dem gimmel und dem lamed is doch in Gematria tzvei hundred und nain, in mispar koton elef, vos iz der zelbe mispar koton fun "Yom Hazicaron" (drei hundred feer und fertzig), iz doch a raaya muchrachas az men muzzen essen kugel Rosh Hashono oichet afeelu az s'iz nisht chal beShabbos. Iz doch a Tzarich Iyun.
D.B. | 08.02.05 - 11:16 pm | #

veist oys as der alter rebbe hut gehalten as der gimmel fun kugel is a schva, nit a segol, memeyla kumt nit keyn ayin in yiddish.
Anonymous | 08.02.05 - 11:32 pm | #

Aza Teirutz iz a shvache. Amol hut a Rebbe gefregt bam tisch, farvoss is do a gimel in Noach? Hut aine chutzpadike Chossid geentfert "s'iz nisht do kain gimel!". Hut dem Rebbe gezugt - "Dos iz ein Terutz".

Afillu mit un dem Ayin, iz duch in Gematria ein hundred nein und dreisig, mispar koton dreitzin, vos is die zelbe fun Rosh Keves (acht hundred drei und tzvantig), kumt ois az men muzzen essen kugel azoi vie a Rosh Keves, vail der Gematria iz dem Ikkar.

Und nisht nor dem, alle essen vos iz in Mispar koton dreitzin muzzen mir essen. Und dos iz a simman az dem gantzen yor essen mir asach, und memeila megt ihr nisht hobben taanos of alemen vos essen asach zachen a gantze yahr.
D.B. | 08.02.05 - 11:42 pm | #

Ober m'shraybt קוגל ohn an ayin, veil der lamed iz "silabish". Kuk afn link: http://www.blogger.com/comment.g...94& isPopup=true
Mar Gavriel | Homepage | 08.02.05 - 11:48 pm | #

Ikh gai tohn a google afn kugl.
D.B. | 08.02.05 - 11:57 pm | #

http://mysite.verizon.net/ jialpe...ssary.htm#Tools

Kuk vie azoy shraiben men kugel-lager. Dem website iz zayer makpid afen die zachen
D.B. | 08.03.05 - 12:06 am | #

> People smoke cigarettes while reading the newspaper, not pot.

Since when are newspapers mutar? Sounds like cigarettes should be asur as a gateway to newspaper reading.
Itzik | Homepage | 08.03.05 - 1:27 am | #

"Since when are newspapers mutar? Sounds like cigarettes should be asur as a gateway t