So it's gonna be Beyond Teshuvah vs. Off The Derech?

Sounds like a good idea though.
Godol Hador | Homepage | 12.06.05 - 3:27 pm | #

With all the morally correct trouncing of some pundits regarding the difficulties baalei teshuva confront after they have taken the big step of becomging "frum", they often forget that, frankly, some BTs ARE really, really, REALLY bizarre.

I am not saying we should not be accepting, I am just stating that after two years of living in Passaic, New Jersey (I recently moved), there are some unsavory aspects to the BT movement that deserve as much attention, and, indeed, censure.

Just my Two Cents.
Dovid | 12.06.05 - 3:34 pm | #

i sure am glad that you deleted that post, Rav Gil. I most likely would have stopped reading your blog if I would have seen it!
G | 12.06.05 - 3:36 pm | #

By the way, Gil, as usual, I am moved and inspired by the sensitivity you display in not only what you post, but in what you do not post, as well.
Dovid | 12.06.05 - 3:42 pm | #

some BTs I have met have definitely taken the cake for being some of God's VERY special children. The accusations of attracting "BTs-with-a-difference" can't be levied at one particular chassidic sect alone. Aish in Jerusalem was one of the truly strangest experiences I've ever had (and lets just say I was not born frum). That being said, there are definitely dimensions of the preexisting frum community that do not discourage some peculiar thinkings/behaviors; a contributing factor is the presence of BabyBoomer BTs.
pierre | Homepage | 12.06.05 - 4:00 pm | #

dovid

>>>I am just stating that after two years of living in Passaic, New Jersey (I recently moved), there are some unsavory aspects to the BT movement that deserve as much attention, and, indeed, censure. >>>

Please elaborate-What is unsavory
anon | 12.06.05 - 4:01 pm | #

Dovid: That is what accounts for much of the "discrimination."

That, and when it comes to shidduchim, real culture gaps that is difficult to expect young kids to overlook. Forty five year olds are not as likely to need or expect someone who understands their background, but it's natural for twenty year olds to feel they relate more naturally and deeply to poeple whose upbringing was similar to theirs.
Anonymous | 12.06.05 - 4:03 pm | #

"can't get married"...oh that hurt. I salute you! Faranak Margolese (nee Rofeh), gives the statistic from R. Buchwald that more than half of BTs who remain single will most likely fall off the Derech.
pierre | Homepage | 12.06.05 - 4:08 pm | #

Yasher Koach on publicizing this vital counter balance to BTA and his ilk!
FKM | Homepage | 12.06.05 - 4:09 pm | #

By unsavory, I would personally offer some new religious categories that have coevolved with BT presence (not yet on Frumster); Non-Observant Orthodox (often unmarried women), and "Religious - but keeewl" (i.e., young Professional, sings zmeros, plays all the carlebach tunes on his guitar, can 'lern' but isn't shomer yichud/negiah, etc).
pierre | Homepage | 12.06.05 - 4:16 pm | #

Before I recount some of what I find are troubling aspects of the kiruv movement, allow me to preface as follows: There are plenty of human problems. Torah perfects us, but not everyone, to put it nicely, has reached the level where they are kulo Torah.

I do not like the fact that the task--a very difficult one that requires experience, wisdom, depth, and intelligence--has been relegated to what I can only refer to as the failures of the beis medrash system. Learning wise, many of these "Rabbis" are not worth the paper they write their name on. And I fear they sell out in some of the ways they teach things. For people just starting out, this is more a liability than it is an asset. Why bring things down--we can start with the basics--but why delude people into confusing first grade mathematics and particle physics? This applies not merely to learning but also hashkafa.
This is not to refer to all kiruv institutions--just a lot of them. (Not OS, for example, in Monsey or EY).

That would be if for now, though there are more.
Roni | 12.06.05 - 5:11 pm | #

"(Not OS, for example, in Monsey or EY)"

OS in monsey simply presumed that the issues you alluded to, practiced in the institutions you alluded to...worked. Many people who were there when I was had gone through those types of institutions; OS Monsey was DEFINITELY NOT "Iconoclasm 201" (i.e., NOT an overhaul of the watered-down perspectives on life and Torah picked up from more outreaching places).
pierre | Homepage | 12.06.05 - 5:20 pm | #

I started off saying that OS is better in this regard. I just don't like the notion of unlettered, uneducated, and, frankly, unintelligent "Rabbis" talking about that which they do not know to people who deserve far better.
Roni | 12.06.05 - 5:46 pm | #

Excellent post, Gil, and excellent blog, from the looks of it. This does look like it will be OTD and BT, though they're actually going for the same things - just from different perspectives. OTD from the BT who's no longer, BT from BTs who still are frum.
Ezzie | Homepage | 12.06.05 - 6:08 pm | #

[deleted by request]

Edited By Siteowner
Anon | Homepage | 12.06.05 - 6:13 pm | #

Gil, thanks for raising the issue in this forum.

"Yasher Koach on publicizing this vital counter balance to BTA and his ilk!"

FKM, what you don't seem to get is that my ilk and I *are* the counterbalance! The diruv Rabbis don't disclose much of the confusion contained in frumkeit that inevitably comes down the road for many BT's.

Let's analogize making the decision to "become frum" for a potential BT to entering into a very important contract, one that will have far more implications for one's future than say buying a home.

Assuming you take it seriously, you will be encouraged to forego a lot of activities you do regularly. You will take on certain responsibilities. There will be costs as well as benefits. Among the costs will be alienating large portions of your family if they are secular.

Among the benefits will be the potential to form a far stronger bond with your potential spouse and kids than you could reasonably expect in the secular world.

And so on.

The point is that the kiruv "professionals" tell you only one side of the story. They firmly believe that they are doing "God's will" by bringing you to "emes."

It's not clear that God would consider you not righteous enough to go to olam habo had you never become a BT, although it would seem unfair to require that of a secularly raised person. It's been said before that the typical BT is not really doing "tshuva" because he/she didn't even know what he was doing was wrong, certainly not in a halachic sense.

OTD frummies who come back are the only true BT's.

Now, a blog like mine is about all there is for someone nowadays who is being fed a steady stream of "Na'ashe V'nishma" and Artscroll and nice fuzzy Rabbis taking them on trips and BBQ's.

Some places like Aish try to answer questions, but in my opinion their answers are dishonest, particularly if the answers are in the form of Schroeder proofs and Bible Codes.

A lot of BT's get caught up with "kabbala" so Rabbis use that as a hook as well. Well, now we all know there are serious questions about whether being a "Torah Jew," as the kiruv rabbis use that phrase, requires emunah pshutah or not, as the gedolei hador say. In fact, both sides are not being presented to BT's.

Now, in my opinion, not confronting the major issues, or at least disclosing them, is nothing short of fraud or at least misrepresentation.

These rabbis should disclose the many divorced and unhappy BT's, the ones who bailed after a year or so, and the ones who continue to struggle as I do with wanting to keep the traditions alive and the benefits, while not being convinced of the unerlying theology. It's not like they don't know about us!
(Although many pretend to not know what you're talking about when you raise serious questions about the mesorah).

So, that's my 2 shekels, and that's why I started my blog (not for a parnassa or fame). I'm a wealthy man emotionally and otherwise. I'm v
Ba'al T'shuvas Anonymous | Homepage | 12.06.05 - 6:21 pm | #

Got cut off. I just want to add, that I'm very concerned about the kiruv business out there and they people they are pressuring to go to Israel and yeshiva and to get "hooked."

I was openly discouraged by kiruv people and rabbis not to marry my wife, but rather to just go to yeshiva instead! There are people doing a lot of evil in the name of kiruv and you FFB's are lucky not to know the half of it.
Ba'al T'shuvas Anonymous | Homepage | 12.06.05 - 6:32 pm | #

"they often forget that, frankly, some BTs ARE really, really, REALLY bizarre."

Absolutely. And gerim. No one can tell me they feel convinced that a ger or a BT knows what they're getting into, we all just hope it sits well with the person.

Perhaps rabbis should have to discourage potential BT's just as they do gerim, since it would probably be worse to accept the obligations and then "throw off the yolk" rather than to simply live in ignorance of the mitzvahs.

Sounds like a halachic question for Rav Gil.
Ba'al T'shuvas Anonymous | Homepage | 12.06.05 - 6:35 pm | #

Anon-Well if we all gave in to our yzh"r regularly we would not be upset about being single. You avoided the struggle and so you think life is easy-you consider yourself frum. But for those of us actually care and to whom frumkeit is not a joke-your experience is irrelevant. Gil-Maybe you had to delete your post, but I would not have. The one advantage to being male repellant is I get to be bitter and say exactly what I think. It sure beats pretending.
Male Repellant | 12.06.05 - 7:06 pm | #

Male Repellant,

What are you talking about, and why are you so upset?
anon5 | 12.06.05 - 7:12 pm | #

My wife has been helping out at the "Inspired" showings around here, and aside from her own enamoration with it, she finds that most of the people who've seen it have loved it. (A few said it was the best $10 they've ever spent, others the best video they've ever seen - and yes, they do watch movies.)

I'll admit, I was skeptical of the video at first, considering BTA's blog and the like, but I didn't find much more from the videos (which I watched most, not all of) than a very interesting account of people's stories, and that they are very happy as BT's.

In a way, this was almost exactly as kiruv should be.
Ezzie | Homepage | 12.06.05 - 7:45 pm | #

There is a big gender gap with the film though. Women get to see a double feature and men get only to see 1/2 of that.
anony | 12.06.05 - 8:21 pm | #

Rabbi Raphael (Ralph) Pelcovitz shlit"a, many years ago, in Jewish Action (or maybe it was still Jewish Life then - I think it was JL on second thought), questioned some things about the focus on baalei teshuvah, sometimes at the expense of FFB's, and some other questionable things about the BT movement. I think his words still resonate and ring loudly and are still worthy of serious consideration.
anony | 12.06.05 - 8:24 pm | #

some BTs ARE really, really, REALLY bizarre.

Before I read the book, I thought Slifkin's "Mysterious Creatures" was about them!
Anonymous | 12.06.05 - 8:33 pm | #

Anon- LOL!

Ezzie- I find the trailer for Inspired very creepy, and very much like the born again christians.

Insert "new testament" for "Torah."
Ba'al T'shuvas Anonymous | Homepage | 12.06.05 - 8:49 pm | #

anon 5-Anon thinks it's not such a big deal not to be celibate. Of course the whole nisayon of being frum and single-which is what people in my predicament are upset about-would be gone.
Male Repellant | 12.06.05 - 9:01 pm | #

There is a big gender gap with the film though. Women get to see a double feature and men get only to see 1/2 of that.

That's simply because there's a woman from the video singing at the end of the women's video.

I find the trailer for Inspired very creepy, and very much like the born again christians.

Insert "new testament" for "Torah."

That's what I thought until I watched the actual film.

I'm sure you'd find a couple flaws in the film, but overall it's just a good, "inspiring" film. I think you might even like it.

What do you think about the new blog, BTA? It's right up your alley.
Ezzie | Homepage | 12.06.05 - 9:07 pm | #

>With all the morally correct trouncing of some pundits regarding the difficulties baalei teshuva confront after they have taken the big step of becomging "frum", they often forget that, frankly, some BTs ARE really, really, REALLY bizarre.

I agree. Frankly, there are many BT's out there (the majority of them male) that while maybe not "bizzare", there seems to be an unusualy large % of weirdos, nebs, losers, unemployed and such in the BT world. (my aplogies if i'm offending anyone)

And I think I know the reason.

To become a BT means almost instant acceptance into "club". It's an instant social connection. If your an irreligous nebuch, you don't have much. But if you become frum, Wham! Your invited for shabbos meals, people want to set you up with girls, all of a sudden people start paying attention to you.

How many successful males become BT's? Not that many.

I'm not saying that your average BT thinks about this before becoming frum. But it's got to be there in the background.
Classmate-Wearing-Yarmulka | Homepage | 12.06.05 - 9:35 pm | #

"What do you think about the new blog, BTA? It's right up your alley."

Ezz, I got swept up in the BT madness and posted on my site about this as well. To answer your question, here's what I said and why it might not be up my alley:

"I think the Beyond BT blog is an excellent idea, since a forum of its kind is needed. However, the blog has "rabbinic supervision" according to Gil, which means discourse will be stifled at some point. I don't think it should. Otherwise, the only issues discussed will be "do I go to my in laws' on Thanksgiving," and the like."
Ba'al T'shuvas Anonymous | Homepage | 12.06.05 - 10:02 pm | #

"How many successful males become BT's? Not that many."

Classmate- you are completely wrong! The BT yeshivas like Aish Ohr SOmeyahc and Machon SHlomo are filled with doctors, lawyers investment bankers.

There are a lot of very well-rounded guys there. I personally made more money this year than I'm sure you could make in a lifetime, just in case it's financial success you are speaking of. And most of the guys I mentioned would blow you away in smarts and success.

Get your facts straight.
Ba'al T'shuvas Anonymous | Homepage | 12.06.05 - 10:06 pm | #

While I do know plenty of BT's who were quite successful in their pre-BT life, I am willing to say that percentage wise, there are more who weren't.
Classmate-Wearing-Yarmulka | Homepage | 12.06.05 - 10:25 pm | #

"While I do know plenty of BT's who were quite successful in their pre-BT life, I am willing to say that percentage wise, there are more who weren't.
Classmate-Wearing-Yarmulka"

Well, that just about mimics real life then, doesn't it? Besides, it's well known that religiosity is inversely correlated with education, success, and income in the non-Jewish world.

But I could turn your argument on its head: Highly successful people, who (in my experience) "tend" to be self-rightous, arrogant and obnoxious are less likely to become BTs. Present company excluded, of course. (No offence, BTA). So, if there is a selection bias, it's not necessarily a bad thing.

But I have to agree with BTA. I personally know far more highly successful BTs than unsuccessful ones. They are very often the wealthiest people at any gathering. Most of the unsuccessful people I know are FFB, in fact.

But neither of us has any real numbes, I would guess.
anon5 | 12.06.05 - 10:36 pm | #

"there are some unsavory aspects to the BT movement that deserve as much attention, and, indeed, censure. "

The biggest problem there is aish 'HaTorah' itself. It is a money making machine that is soley concerned with enhancing the high life style of the executives and 'teachers' of the firm.

They do this, through a long tradition o excellent fund raising and promotion. They have always been the most advanced 'yeshiva' in this regard.

I am very concerned that they are now targeting mainstream frum people with their movies. I do hope and pray that the ehrlicher Yidden won't fall prey to their silly bible codes and other stories that they purvey to the unsuspecting.
Jobber | Homepage | 12.06.05 - 10:42 pm | #

To Male Repellent and most of the commenters, now I know the truth of what I once heard Berel Wein say, "Don't judge Judaism by the Jews".
Anon | Homepage | 12.06.05 - 10:50 pm | #

"Anon thinks it's not such a big deal not to be celibate. Of course the whole nisayon of being frum and single-which is what people in my predicament are upset about-would be gone."

I have several friends in your predicament, and I can see (and feel) how depressing and trying it can be.

But I don't think it's fair to pick on Anon. For most males, he was honestly addressing YH #1, something much more difficult that avoiding LH (for example) for many males. For a BT, it can be extraordinarily difficult, especially when you are raised with "secular morality." If you have not been there, then it's not really fair to compare.

In fact, I think the emotional trauma of a BT in these situations (not finding a partner) can be even greater than for an FFB. Especially when you are not nearly strong enough to overcome a YH that you know is clearly off limits. I think his comments reflect the common reality that is usually not discussed.

Hatzlacha to you in your nisayon.
anon5 | 12.06.05 - 10:56 pm | #

'ger or a BT knows what they're getting into, we all just hope it sits well with the person.'

This ger didn't. But I still have no regrets.

Back to lurking....
ex-Christian | 12.06.05 - 11:37 pm | #

anon5-I am not saying it's not a very strong yezer hara (trust me I know it is)-but he has a very cavalier attitude about it. (And I don't think it's more difficult to avoid if you keep yourself in the right situation.) Let's put it this way-the sexual urge is stronger than the urge to speak lh"r but the ease of speaking lh"r and the opportunities for it are greater. I am sorry I don't remember where it is but I once saw a gemara that says a small amount of kelal yisrael's sins are in g"a but most of them are in nivul peh-I may be mistaken in the exact quote, butI think tehre's a lot of truth to it.
Male Repellant | 12.06.05 - 11:48 pm | #

By the way, my shul has a lot of BTs and most of them really are nuts (guess what-a lot are Lubavitch too). I decided my shul-instead of having a sign that says "Da lifne mi attah omed" or "Shivisi Hashem l'negdi tamid" should have up a sign that says: "Hahaser meshugga'im anokhi?"
Male Repellant | 12.06.05 - 11:52 pm | #

There seems to be an abundance of one-sided sniping here and a severe lack of balance.

All sorts of accusations about how Kiruv is all about cushy jobs for the nebbish unschooled Rabbis who deviously fool unsuspecting innocent Jews into a hellish life with an overabundance of scurrilous 'proofs' and 'codes', all the while promising a perfect life of happiness and serenity. (Just to put them all in one package).

Virtually all of the above is nonsense, swill and plain vicious libel. What kind of idiot really believes that Kiruv Rabbis should include a tour of failed marriages and unhappy ex-BT's in their class programs? If anyone is stupid enough to think that living frum is a panacea for all of life's ills he is a dope, ands no kiruv Rabbi is liable for his stupidity and subsequent disillusionment. No Kiruv Rabbi out there is promising heaven on earth.

Furthermore, the uses of 'codes' and 'proofs' is actually rare in Kiruv outside of Aish. 99% of all kiruv is simple personal contact, Torah study, classes on Jewish subjects and a bit of cholent. Thats it. No promises of glorious trouble free living, no shifty eyed Rabbis with mansions...

I find the fact that so many are eager to bash an entire cohort of folks who are working their tails off on behalf of klal yisrael and Kevod Shomayim to be shameful.

Are there problems? Sure. But from reading the comments here you'd be led to believe that the entire industry is no more than scientology with a tallis. And it is certain that attacks like these will never reach the ears of the necessary parties since they are so ridiculously false and over the top that they are easuly ignored as the ramblings of childish malcontents.

Disgraceful.
Dude | 12.06.05 - 11:53 pm | #

"That's simply because there's a woman from the video singing at the end of the women's video."

Is that the only reason ? If so, couldn't they have the men leave before the end ? I assumed that they didn't want them to see the part focusing on women, even without the singing.
anony | 12.06.05 - 11:53 pm | #

But I won't judge the BT movement by the BTs. I assume they don't teach you zenus is okay.
Male Repellant | 12.06.05 - 11:54 pm | #

BTW - my comments are not aimed at Gil's friend in the OP whose comment was not aimed at the Kiruv industry, but at the community in general and its attitude toward BTs.
Dude | 12.06.05 - 11:55 pm | #

" I am sorry I don't remember where it is but I once saw a gemara that says a small amount of kelal yisrael's sins are in g"a but most of them are in nivul peh-I may be mistaken in the exact quote, butI think tehre's a lot of truth to it."

Ruban bigezel umiutan ba'arayos......
anony | 12.06.05 - 11:58 pm | #

vikulan ba'avak l"h, IIRC. However, there may be more than one version.
anony | 12.07.05 - 12:00 am | #

"(And I don't think it's more difficult to avoid if you keep yourself in the right situation.) "

Male Repellant:

I am confused as to your meaning. Are you implying that avoiding the beach and movies (for males) are of NO help? Are you saying that a frum upbringing does NOT make it easier (for a male) to avoid sexual aveiros? I have no scientific data either way, but I would be interested if there actually were data available...
anon5 | 12.07.05 - 12:11 am | #

The R. Pelcovitz article raising questions related to the BT movement was in Jewish Life, circa 1980.
OJ | Homepage | 12.07.05 - 12:29 am | #

Yes-I am saying that not going to the beach and movies helps people not to commit averos-of course. However, it is much more difficlut to keep oneself in a situation that would avoid lashon hara.
Male Repellant | 12.07.05 - 12:40 am | #

Anony-Thank you so much. I think taht is what I saw. IY"H when I have more time, I'll check teh Bar Ilan. Anyway, I think that ma'mar says it all.
Male Repellant | 12.07.05 - 12:43 am | #

As far as upbringing anon5-I don't know and I doubt it is as simple as whether one was brought up frum or not. I will say I have met goyim who were brought up with some level of morality and a healthy attitude and they have a more normal attitude towards sex than a lot of people I know brought up frum. They are not celibate but they are monogamous (for more than one night).
Male Repellant | 12.07.05 - 12:45 am | #

Is that the only reason ? If so, couldn't they have the men leave before the end ? I assumed that they didn't want them to see the part focusing on women, even without the singing.

No - they actually thought of that, but it would break up the entire presentation. They've found the way it's presented now effective enough, so why mess with it?

You can still buy the women's version, anyway.
Ezzie | Homepage | 12.07.05 - 1:09 am | #

The single biggest problem with the "kiruv movement" is - the kiruv movement.

"Normative judaism requires one to be concerned with one's own spriritual well-being, and with the physical well-being of one's fellow Jew. The problems begin when these are reversed"

This is a quote from an un-named major rabbi in Jerusalem.
oysvurf | 12.07.05 - 5:40 am | #

When you have FFB people who cannot afford to send their children to Yeshiva, while all the big shots at Aish are getting high 6 figure salaries, due to their unique ability to raise funds, that should go towards lowering tuitions, that effects the community. I happen to know what they pay their 'branch managers' and it is higher than most jobs. Also they can't stop bragging as to how 'well funded' their projects are. Drives me up a wall. I have to take my children out of Yeshiva. Oh yeah, I did send my resume to IDT again, I am sure they have a job for me.

You don't need their expensive classes, just get a few books, attend a beginners class at any shule. You will learn far more than their shtick they put on.

Go to that auction site, I have seen excellent books and seforim in English for under a book, or buy new right here on Gil's site, or u can buy excellent books on www.targum.com. they have a web discount and free shipping.
Jobber | Homepage | 12.07.05 - 7:16 am | #

"Normative judaism requires one to be concerned with one's own spriritual well-being, and with the physical well-being of one's fellow Jew. The problems begin when these are reversed"

Your "Major Rabbi" is an ignoramus. The idea that every Jew is responsible for the spiritual well-being of other Jews is so pervasive in Judaism as to be unavoidable. You can start with the story on Shabbos 55b about the Satan during the time of the Churban, Pirkei Avos (Ohaiv es Haberiyos Umekarvon L'Torah), Rabbi Elazar Ben Azaryahs Cow...

"Whoever has the ability to protest against the wrongdoing of his family and fails to do so bears responsibility for the guilt of his family; if he has the ability to protest against the wrongdoing of his city he bears responsibility for the guilt of his city; if he has the ability to protest against the wrongdoing of the entire world he bears responsibility for the guilt of the entire world."

There are many many more. But for strident closed minded folks, the facts dont really matter...
Dude | 12.07.05 - 8:58 am | #

Frankly, there are many BT's out there (the majority of them male) that while maybe not "bizzare", there seems to be an unusualy large % of weirdos, nebs, losers, unemployed and such in the BT world. (my aplogies if i'm offending anyone)

There may be some truth to that, but it is far from the whole story. I think that suggesting that the only (or even major) reason a Jew would reconnect with his/her heritage and mesorah is b/c he/she is unable to fit in anywhere else and has few life prospects elsewhere is a massive insult not only to "BTs" (I hate using that expression) but to Yahadut itself.

If you want to R' Steinsaltz, R' Riskin, R' Bin Nun, among many others, "nebs", then be my guest.
Habib | Homepage | 12.07.05 - 10:47 am | #

There are many many more. But for strident closed minded folks, the facts dont really matter...
Dude | 12.07.05 - 7:58 am | #

I could go through a long list of sources refuting your claim. It's pretty clear that since the time of the early Rishonim at least up until the Chazon Ish the common norm was that we don not give "malkot" to descendants of those who have strayed - rather we can only engage in Tshuva Meahava. The question is whether this a priori indicates a responsibility to do so. I do not think so.

The quotes you give me certainly only apply to willing sinners - not subsequent generations. However, if these are the sources you rely on to validate the kiruv movement than BTA and company are probably in worse shape than they think...........
oysvurf | 12.07.05 - 11:29 am | #

At first I thought I was going to ask R. gil to pull my snippy posts!...
foolish neb me! About Aish and finances; the main line while I was there in '03-04 was that the yeshiva was just out of the red, that so many jews were still assimilating that we could call Kiruv a failure...and therefore without our *fresh young blood* it would likely collapse. We were at war. And in war - as far as the arguement seemed to go (similar to Kakhniks) - anything goes. Divinely-mandated ethical concerns, cautions about consequences were all thrown out. Which meant outright lies, half truths, blantant proud racism, disrepect toward other ways in Torah, doublespeak...what ever it takes to win THE war. It may very well be Yiddishkeit, but it's not Torah. You shouldn't have to lie to tell the truth. Rabbis were even tolerant of an "Aished" blackhat-wearing ger-in-process (i.e, a goy), poskening sheilahs and answering peoples kashas on Torah.
about BT demographics; over different yeshivas, i also met an unusual number of people that had recently lost a parent.

R. BenNun from Y. Kibbutz HaDati was a BT?...
pierre | Homepage | 12.07.05 - 12:43 pm | #

Pierre:

I think you're right to say that what we call "BTs" represent a wide variety of different people from different backgrounds motivated by different individuals/institutions. It is important to disaggregate them.

R. BenNun from Y. Kibbutz HaDati was a BT?...
Correct.
Habib | Homepage | 12.07.05 - 12:51 pm | #

also there was an Israeli flag atop the yeshiva - and two pictures of Rav Shach in the dining hall.
pierre sogol | Homepage | 12.07.05 - 12:51 pm | #

Retraction:

I may have had incorrect info w/ regard to R' Bin Nun.

From the YKD website --
נולד בחיפה ב- ח' באייר 9.5.46 גדל והתחנך בה, בחינוך הממ''ד, ובתנועת ''בני עקיבא''. הוריו, ד"ר יחיאל בן-נון וד"ר שושנה בן-נון עסקו בחינוך בהוראה בכתיבה ובמחקר בתחומי היהדות והלשון העברית.
Habib | Homepage | 12.07.05 - 1:05 pm | #

"I could go through a long list of sources refuting your claim."

Not likely.

"It'we can only engage in Tshuva Meahava."

Which is precisely what the Kiruv movement does...

"The question is whether this a priori indicates a responsibility to do so. I do not think so."

I realize that you do not think so, but the fact is that Judaism does think so.

"The quotes you give me certainly only apply to willing sinners - not subsequent generations."

Really? MeHaycha Teisi? 'Ohaiv Es Haberiyos Umekarvon LeTorah' is about deliberate sinners?

How about this citation:

Rambam Hilchos Mamrim 3:3

"However, the children of these mistaken ones and their grand-children whose parents have misled them and those who have been born among the Karaites who have been brought up in their ideology; these are no different than a child who has been taken captive and brought up [in that society] which is not careful with the way of the commandments. [This child] is considered to be coerced…therefore it is proper to help them return and treat them with love until they return to the Torah world. "

Is that clear enough?

"However, if these are the sources you rely on to validate the kiruv movement than BTA and company are probably in worse shape than they think..........."

Yes, of course, the Kiruv movement needs "validation". In other words, it is an evil which needs to be justified and explained rather than a good deed. Sick.
Dude | 12.07.05 - 2:29 pm | #

If what you say about the parents is true, it's probably because these people know they've got to say kaddish with a minyan and they go to an orthodox shul and they see the beauty. I've seen that happen before.
G | 12.07.05 - 3:04 pm | #

This seems to relate to Steven Savitsky's comments at the OU convention in Israel last year- many people who used to move to Israel did so to run away from problems. He took a lot of flack for that, but there's some truth to it as well. Same thing with Baalei teshuvah. Many of them are normal professionals who thought there was more to life than what they experienced, became frum, and are perfectly balanced, normal people. And many of them are unbalanced people who thought becoming frum would solve their personal issues. It doesn't, and you're left with a messed up individual who feels he's been duped. Not that the FFB world doesn't have messed up people.
Jothar of the hillpeople | 12.07.05 - 3:57 pm | #

I stand by my original statement, but I wish to clarify.

I didn't mean to say that someone becomes a BT because he is looking for acceptance, free meals, and dates.

But a neb, weirdo, whatever you want to call him, will more likely be predisposed to becoming frum. Someone who seeks acceptance but doesn't have it yet will be drawn to a world and lifestyle that grants it.
Classmate-Wearing-Yarmulka | Homepage | 12.07.05 - 4:54 pm | #

But a neb, weirdo, whatever you want to call him, will more likely be predisposed to becoming frum.

Please can somebody present something other than anecdotal evidence for these claims. (or counter claims for that matter).

Please present the name of a published academic work stating that there is a statistically significant difference between the rate of occurrences of psychological conditions (as measured by the DSM-IV) of the BT population vs. the non-observant population.

If you wish to infer the above conjecture based on studies of other religions' returnee experiences, you would first need to prove that we can compare the Jewish population and experience to these groups, something which will also require something a bit more substantive than anecdotal analysis.
biotorah | 12.07.05 - 7:59 pm | #

"Yes, of course, the Kiruv movement needs "validation". In other words, it is an evil which needs to be justified and explained rather than a good deed. Sick.
Dude "

Dude, chill out. Your moniker belies your type-A nature!

No one, least of all moi, says that "kiruv" as Rambam lays it out, is invalid. Of course, if you are true believer frum and you can do it tactfully without alienating the person, you should make every effort to get a person back on the derech. That is basic Judaism. No problemo.

However, would Rambam have advocated Bible Codes classes and all sorts of nonsense in the name of kiruv? Would he approve of kiruv rabbis who have limited knowledge and budget constraints, resorting to time-saving, budgeted shortcuts, like Schroeder books? Of course not.

Rambam is a great example of someone who went to great lengths to do it "right." Moreh Nevuchim, while not a modern work, still was done with the utmost integrity and diligence. He clearly put his all into explaining away difficulties.

My site has a post about Rav Hirsch's 19 letters which I say is an example of honest kiruv.

Thus, kiruv itself is fine, but there are a lot of clowns who I won't name (lest Gil delete this carpal tunnel inducing post). Unfortunately, the clowns are the majority in kiruv, and notably most of the kiruv clowns I discuss on my site and which Godol discusses, are BT's as well.

In sum- your disdain for this whole critique of kiruv is understandable. However, you need to understand all the nonsense that goes on before calling those who kvetch about it "sick."
Ba'al T'shuvas Anonymous | Homepage | 12.07.05 - 8:38 pm | #

Many times, there are 2 alternative reasons why people complain about baalei teshuvah, other than legitamate points:

1. It's an FFB "purebloods versus mudbloods" snobbery thing.

2. Many of the complainers are reluctantly Orthodox, wanting to trade lifestyles with those BT's. The fact that the BT's actually want to be frum causes these self-hating Orthodox people to look for reasons to invalidate the BT's.

Present company excluded, of course.
BT defender | 12.07.05 - 10:17 pm | #

"Unfortunately, the clowns are the majority in kiruv,"

I publicly disproved this assertion of yours before. Why are you repeating it?
Dude | 12.07.05 - 10:23 pm | #

"I publicly disproved this assertion of yours before. Why are you repeating it?
Dude"

Dude, you are so pompous sometimes! "Publicly disproved?"

First of all, the blog's not *private,* so we knew the "public" part.

Second, you can't "disprove" my claim, unless you have a census or some statistics which reliably determine the ratio of kiruv clowns to valid kiruv people.

First of all, are you a BT?

Second, do you work in kiruv?

If not, I really don't see how you're qualified to make such pronouncements from on high. I tried to offer you an understanding of how others feel, and instead of bridging the gap, you make a preposterous claim.

Ah well, so much for trying to create harmony.
Ba'al T'shuvas Anonymous | Homepage | 12.07.05 - 10:49 pm | #

You have been harping on the 'proofs' and 'Discovery' stuff and you have claimed in the past that it made up the majority of Kiruv. I then demonstrated to you that your claim was entirely false. Now you claim once again that the majority of Kiruv workers are engaged in what you refer to as 'Kiruv clownery'. Do you really need to go back and visit the Kiruv websites that you visited before to see that this is demonstrably untrue?

Go ahead, there are plenty of them. Lets see what percentage of these fellows are doing the stuff you dont like... Go ahead...

This is entirely aside from the fact that you have defined Kiruv clownery down quite a bit and basically only consider Kiruv legitimate when a potential BT is forced to visit a screwed up family with a deranged dad who are all tormented by their awful decision to become frum... Your credibility is quite wanting in this area...
Dude | 12.07.05 - 11:19 pm | #

Come visit Passaic. There are numerous ba'alei teshuvah who started very successful careers first. For that matter, I can think of a number who had to give up those careers due to now keeping mitzvos like tzeni'us (used to be a filmmaker) and Shabbos.
micha | Homepage | 12.08.05 - 10:33 am | #

micha - why do the people have to "give up" the careers? can't those skills be used towards a higher calling? can't a film be made where the actors have their clothes on? everything of value comes at a cost if people believe that what they got is greater than what they gave up - that's not a sacrifice - that's a good deal - I am a BT ( a real one or at least I try to be having been raised frum and then doing a "walkabout" and then some intensive retooling - tshiuva and tikkun not a tinok shenishba like so many who come new to the game) - now if I'm asked to speak and its on shabbos and I have to decline, I'm comforted by the fact that what shabbos doesa for me is far greater than the cost I have to pay to keep it - it's actually nice to find out exactly how much shabbos is worth
BTW Dude that "major rabbi" wa probably R Israel Salanter and the quote is taken ouit of context - he lamented that while you'll always see someone asking "are u jewish we need a minyan" but very rarely " come eat with us so we can bentch b'mzuman (with 3)" why jews are unfortunately more concerned with their own gashmius and the next guys ruchnius - he humbly suggested klal yisrael would be better off if the priorities were reversed - it's a beautiful "chap" gut shabbos
The Golem of Blog | 12.09.05 - 8:39 am | #

Baruch HaShem, I went to YU after my years in NCSY. WADR to the Charedi side of the Kiruv world,I have grave difficulties with a derech that sells "answers", refuses to consider alternate approaches and invokes Daas Torah on difficult hashkafic issues.
Steve Brizel | 12.09.05 - 1:52 pm | #

"that "major rabbi" wa probably R Israel Salanter and the quote is taken ouit of context"

If you say it was R. I. Salanter, I'll take it.


"This seems to relate to Steven Savitsky's comments at the OU convention in Israel last year- many people who used to move to Israel did so to run away from problems. He took a lot of flack for that, but there's some truth to it as well. "

Yes, people like Yisrael (Robert) Aumann and Rav Aron Lichtenstein were obviously running away from problems.
oysvurf | 12.11.05 - 10:20 am | #

'can't a film be made where the actors have their clothes on?'

Ushpizin was great! I urge all frum Jews -- and non-frum Jews -- to see it in a theatre. (And I especially urge any rabbi who might think that cinema is ussur to see it.)

I was distressed to see this:

http://www.ushpizin.com/email/ us...ushpizin04.html

Must we need to remind people that theft of intellectual property is against civil and Jewish law?

If more frum people would be a part of the entertainment industry, our popular culture would be elevated by an incredible amount. Dudu Fisher's performance of Jean Valjean in "Les Miserables" was a tremendous kiddush HaShem. (It also made his understudy very happy to be guaranteed two performance each week since Fisher was and is shomer Shabat!) Just as those who vote should not complain about government, those who refuse to do something to improve popular culture when the opportunity to do so arises should not complain of its decadence.
charliehall | 12.11.05 - 11:29 am | #

charlie,

Since Chanukah is coming, lets keep this in perspective:

The Maccabees were quite upset at the level of decadence in popular culture, and not one said - "Hey, let's make a play where the actors keep their clothes on". Or, "let's have some frum runners in the Olympics."

Where does this notion come from that it is the responsibility of Orthodox Jews to participate in the popular culture, in order to raise its standards. "Hen Am Lebadad Yishkon U'Vagoyim Lo Yischashav" means AT LEAST to keep away from the Tumah that the culture disseminates.

I'll watch Ushpizin on DVD. Going into a movie theater disgusts me. It is a place where the most pernicious, destructive, vile Tumah is disseminated and eats up the best years of our youth. Even if the movie has value (and I have heard that it does have some), there is NO WAY I would see it in a cinema, any more than I would go hear a Shiur in a brothel.
D.B. | 12.11.05 - 12:19 pm | #