That's super interesting.
Also - short vacation, huh?
I've seen many very small tefillin boxes. It wasn't unusual in the earlier part of the 20'th century. My great-grandfather A"H and my gardfather A"H both had what appeared to be very small tefillin boxes.
Maybe it had something to do with the price of the leather that's used to make the boxes.
my father has a tiny box tefillin boxes
yes, but is it round?
nope
round tefillin imply early splinter groups, see mishna in Megila 4:7.
Thanks
But what then would it still be doing in this drawing and picture. I think the year under the drawing says 1725. I can't make it out exactly, but the picture is from the Cairo Gniza. Why would they still show something from apparent splinter groups "late" in the game?
It's not a splinter indication here.
I have been unable to find a Mishna in chapter 4 of Megilla talking about Tefillin.
Found the Mishna. It is Mishna 4:8. It appears there is a difference between the Talmud edition of Megilla and the Mishna edition. It seems there is no Gemara on this Mishna. It appears there is a difference between the Head Tefillin and the arm one. Also it appears from the Mishna that Sadducees were putting Tefillin on their eyes and on their palms so that is why it says in the Mishna if someone does that he is suspected of heresy.
>Also it appears from the Mishna that Sadducees were putting Tefillin on their eyes and on their palms so that is why it says in the Mishna if someone does that he is suspected of heresy.
I beleive this is just a polemic against them. I don't think Sadducees wore tfillin
"It's not a splinter indication here.
Rabban Gamliel | Homepage | 07.25.08 - 12:05 am | #"
Why not?
Its a Dutch picture. The same dutch who only wait 1 hour after eating meat.
I'm not 100% certain on the history of Dutch Jews, but it was my impression that they had a slightly different way of doing many things. It would make sense that they came from a community that splintered.
I found this interesting line here, and it would make sense from the pictures we are seeing:
"Round Tefillin are not kosher. In the middle of this pile is a round shel yad. It wasn't made that way but rather gradually shrunk and took the shape of the rolled up klaf inside.
"
http://rabbi.bendory.com/cgi-bin...m/tefillin/
1657
http://rabbi.bendory.com/cgi-bin...m/tefillin/
1662
>Its a Dutch picture. The same dutch who only wait 1 hour after eating meat.
How does that give indication of a splinter group? Look at old italian jewery where they tended to be more liberal and some not wearing kippot.
" "It's not a splinter indication here.
Rabban Gamliel | Homepage | 07.25.08 - 12:05 am | #"
Why not?
Its a Dutch picture. The same dutch who only wait 1 hour after eating meat.
I'm not 100% certain on the history of Dutch Jews, but it was my impression that they had a slightly different way of doing many things. It would make sense that they came from a community that splintered.
Daganev"
As a splinter group I meant a group that was not loyal to the Pharasaic Judaism of the Rabbinical form.
">Also it appears from the Mishna that Sadducees were putting Tefillin on their eyes and on their palms so that is why it says in the Mishna if someone does that he is suspected of heresy.
I beleive this is just a polemic against them. I don't think Sadducees wore tfillin
Holy Hyrax"
Perhaps. I'll check but it is unlikely that a Mishna would talk about suspecting someone of heresy over a polemic.
"http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/articles/2006/
05/12/news/local/deadsea0512.txt"
If sectarians wore Tefillin it seems unlikely before I even check that the Sadducees did not. Karaite propaganda says they didn't as the Karaites came much later and claimed that a literal reading would not support Tefillin. It is clear the Karaites are forced to this because they would have to accept details on Tefillin not specified in the Torah. The Sadducees were probably deprived of such a luxory as they were more of an organic group as opposed to the artificial Karaites.
"How does that give indication of a splinter group? Look at old italian jewery where they tended to be more liberal and some not wearing kippot.
Holy Hyrax | Homepage | 07.25.08 - 2:25 pm | # "
There is no halcha to wear a kippa, there is a halacha to have sqaure tefilin.
I don't know much about the Italians, but I do know that the dutch have "different traditions" the way that Sephardim and Ashkenazim do.
however from other sources it appears that actually they just made/had tefilin that would shape itself towards the shape of the scroll. (and thus end up round)
(its odd that the hand would be round but the head would be square, unless ofcourse it is just the fact that the head had 3 walls inside to keep it square while the hand has no such support)
>There is no halcha to wear a kippa, there is a halacha to have sqaure tefilin.
Ok, but you certainly can't use that or the fact that waiting an hour is an indication of a splinter sect, or, coming from one
i had tefillin from my grandfather that were small (they were later stolen) and as a i kid i remember the old timers wearing small ones.
It turns out I was wrong. Mesechta Megilla has a Gemorah on that Mishna too. It is only that the Mishnas are grouped differently. Soncino interprets the Mishna as meaning that the prohibition is on rounding your head Tefillin. It is explained that the concern is because of not harming yourself with putting your head down at Tachanun. If you say that the Mishna means either Tefillin then the explanation would have the arm Tefillin hanging along with the prohibition for the head Tefilin if the reason is because of Nefilat Apayim as was brought down by Soncino. Certainly the poshut Pshat is that both Tefillin shouldn't be rounded but it appears Soncino is recording an alternate view.
When a shel yad is made, the leather is stretched over a round mold. Then it is shaped. I wonder if the picture is just a tefila that wasn't blocked (yet).
My grandfather (z"l) has little square tefillin. No clue when they were last checked, though.
The head teffilin that were found in the Judean desert (belonging to Bar Kokhva's soldiers, I believe) were slighly longer than ours today.
you can find this picture and others in daniel sperber's book "minhagei yisrael"
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