If you're going to quote me, at least try and do it precisely. (you missed a word--"often".
>You repeat a certain lie over and over again, eventually, masses will pick it and start believing in it.<
Hmm, sounds just like religion!
sorry about the misquote
and
even if its like religion, all you can say is that you are no better than religion.
Who says religion is a lie? the offthederech guy ? I think those scientists made up the whole carbon dating thing. I mean if you tell a lie long enough, people will just believe it. I agree that is as equally as silly. To say you are unconvinced is one thing, but to declare it a lie and that it is wrong is just plain stupid.
Etan
You don't understand. The point is not whether Judaism or any other religion is a lie or not. The point is, atheism, with its own agendas suffers from the same kind of drawback all of human nature suffers from. You perpetuate something over and over and over again till everyone believes in it. An example of this is when a certain atheist speaker (responsible for the ads in England} said that atheism is actually better than theism because it forces us to fix things and not rely on a diety. Now, you keep repeating this, especially to the youth, and they start believing in it. But last time I checked, religious people are doctors, engineers, soldiers, philantropists, community orgranizers etc etc etc.
Etan:
Ad hominem. Brilliant.
Repeating lies gets you no where. Repeating stereotypes and catch phrases however... That you can't fix without exposure to the truth.
i.e., if you repeat the lie that the sky is neon green, no matter howmuch you repeat it, it won't be believed, because of constant exposure to the truth.
OTD
What you are offended by the word "stupid?" This coming from the person that says Garnel is 10 times worse than Bin Laden?
Daganev
You have a point as well. But I think most lie, or stereotype has some kernal of truth to stand on, thats why its able to pass on over time, though that kernal gets lost in the shuffle with extreme fabrications.
You repeat a certain lie over and over again, eventually, masses will pick it and start believing in it. Human nature, is human nature. It doesn't change.
BS. It DOES change. It HAS changed. The scientific method and western civilization in general have made people much less susceptible to lies. Religion has been a constant foe of this progress, however.
The arrows of correlation are strong. More education, less religion. Higher IQ, less religion. More expertise in science, less religion. These are facts. To continue to exist, religions -- at least fundamentalist ones like Islam and Orthodox Judaism -- must constantly convince their followers that science is untrustworthy, that their religious books are more reliable than archaeology and history and textual criticism and geology and biology and astronomy.
Iran's lie works (for Iranians) in large part due to the influence of Islam.
OTD is at worst wrong. He's certainly not lying.
"Iran's lie works (for Iranians) in large part due to the influence of Islam.
JewishAtheist | Homepage | 04.21.09 - 3:44 pm | # "
So why does North Korea's lies work so well?
They can build nuclear weapons, but they still think that the train explosion was really an earthquake, and they also believe that they have a satellite in space! (More importantly, we believe that they don't have a satellite in space!)
"These are facts. To continue to exist, religions -- at least fundamentalist ones like Islam and Orthodox Judaism -- must constantly convince their followers that science is untrustworthy"
ROFL, more lies!
Where do you make this shit up?
Sorry, not lies, stereotypes and catch phrases.
JA
I don't think most of what you said has anything to do with anything I posted. Clearly, OTD, an intelligent, anti-religion, critical thinking person, is passing on the same old slogan...which is my exact point. So clearly things don't change. Human nature is still human nature. He has a certain ideology, and it passes itself off in hate.
Im not talking about lies as in what stars are made of, or where do babies come from, but simple human hate against others. That does not change no matter what.
>must constantly convince their followers that science is untrustworthy,
Please get your head out of Meah Shearim type of thinking.
>Iran's lie works (for Iranians) in large part due to the influence of Islam.
a) Iran's lies are shared by many people outside of Iran including many hardcore left wing demonstrators.
b) Fine, so its Islam, thats my point. If you have an existing ideology (ANY ideology, even atheism) you will fall for those slogans that champion your cause. OTD's slogans champion his cause, so he passes it off to others, and they believe it, and it gets passed off more and more.
>OTD is at worst wrong. He's certainly not lying.
If he is wrong, what do you believe he is wrong about?
I don't think most of what you said has anything to do with anything I posted. Clearly, OTD, an intelligent, anti-religion, critical thinking person, is passing on the same old slogan...which is my exact point. So clearly things don't change. Human nature is still human nature. He has a certain ideology, and it passes itself off in hate.
Im not talking about lies as in what stars are made of, or where do babies come from, but simple human hate against others. That does not change no matter what.
Lies and hate are two different things. What OTD said is not a lie. Whether it's "hate" is up for dispute. But that has nothing to do with your post.
If he is wrong, what do you believe he is wrong about?
I think religion has some competition for "the greatest source of human suffering in the world." Obviously, there is also disease, poverty, greed, cruelty, tribalism, etc.
>Lies and hate are two different things. What OTD said is not a lie. Whether it's "hate" is up for dispute. But that has nothing to do with your post.
Surely it does (and yes, I'm calling you Shirly). Those lies are spread by that hate that for example OTD has.
>Clearly, OTD, an intelligent, anti-religion, critical thinking person
Kulai Hay V'Ulay. V'Hamaivin Yovin.
Those lies are spread by that hate that for example OTD has.
OTD has been hurt, as most of us OTDers were hurt, by a specific religion. I think some measure of anger (what you're looking at as "hate") is to be expected.
JA,
But the amount of vitriol OTD exhibits is unnatural, and I don't think it's a sign of intelligence. Take yourself for example, I don't see you expressing yourself in any way similar to what he does. I have had plenty of my own run-ins with Frumakes, but a certain level of maturity is to be expected from an adult.
JA
Lets just say you are right, that doesn't negate what I am saying and how these things are passed down from one angry (hurt) person to another.
I also just want to add how despicable I think it is that someone can say Orthodox Judaism as a whole is an extremist way of thinking that is anti-science and other intellectual pursuits.
I am an orthodox Jew that reads all about science and I am becoming a doctor and I find many ways to combine my orthodox Judaism with modern science.
I do agree that religion has caused much suffering in the past, but mainly that was christianity forcing itself on the Muslims and Jews and Islam forcing itself on the christians and Jews as was shown throughout history.
I feel bad for irreligious people that were brought up orthodox and were shunned when they decided not to follow it. I am all too familiar with this situation. However, why are your beliefs greater than my beliefs? Who gives you the right to declare my beliefs untrue? This is what bothers me. I will not tell you what to do, but why do you demand my approval? I don't demand your approval, you believe what you want and I believe what I want.
Please, tell me why people that have become irreligious demand that the orthodox, that believe in a certain set of rules, whole heartedly accept them. We understand your position, but do not agree. I cannot speak for all orthodox Jews because frankly many do not agree with how I think. Many are afraid of teaching secular studies in fear that people will go of the derech.
Unfortunately, some people are extremists and this leads to a painful situation, but why does that give an irreligious person the right to completely insult religion.
Basically, I am just upset that people say G-D is false and does not exist as a statement. This is unprovable and the appropriate way to approach the conversation is that you do not believe in G-D and therefore His rules do not apply to you. This position I respect because I can hear where you are coming from. But to say my position is false without a shadow of a doubt is just ignorance.
>Garnel is 10 times worse than Bin Laden?
You're not a whole lot better yourself.
Acher: Since you're so familiar with my blog, why don't you bring any examples of where I displayed "unnatural vitriol" in the first month or so of my blog?
I don't know about this month or that month, but I do check on your blog, and the vibe I get is just outright negative. And it's not just towards religious people, it's towards anyone who disagrees with you. Take for example your comment to Orthoprax on your comment thread today, "You're a pain in the ass". And that just because you couldn't explain yourself to him.
>And that just because you couldn't explain yourself to him.
Actually, I wasn't explaining myself. I was "explaining" a guest poster to my blog.
Anyway, if you don't like my blog, I haven't asked you to read it.
And HH: you make far too many "misquotes", mistakes and sleights of hand for one not to be suspicious. Yes, I still wouldn't mind if you corrected the misquote. Or ask me for other times you've made these "mistakes", like "Stalin-esque" instead of "Palin-esque".
I also just want to add how despicable I think it is that someone can say Orthodox Judaism as a whole is an extremist way of thinking that is anti-science and other intellectual pursuits.
There are of course modern people such as yourself who are pro-science, at least as long as it doesn't conflict with their faith. Orthodoxy as an institution, however, is very much opposed to science. Take a poll of 100 rabbis and see how many will admit (on the record!) to believing in evolution. What number do you think you'll get?
I do hear what you're saying with the live and let live sentiment, but we're not all Gandhi. It's hard to grow up and be rejected by your whole community because you refuse to believe or pretend to believe that an actual man named Moses literally wrote the chumash while literally taking dictation from God. That 40 years after God literally split the sea and literally made it rain frogs, etc.
If you don't take that stuff literally, then you're not Orthodox. There's some wiggle room in Breishis, but shmos you've got to believe, right?
I don't see why nonbelievers should have to pretend like those are reasonable beliefs.
Yeah, maybe we could be a little more polite about it -- it's not like we storm palm reading places or astrologers and tell them how dumb they are -- but we've been told our whole lives that we're the crazy ones, when really it really was everybody else we knew. It's hard to be the bigger man and not keep harping on that. Really hard. One day maybe I'll get there. Until now, I'm still shouting all the arguments I wasn't allowed to make when I was younger.
Until then, I mean.
OTD
No need to change subject matters. I can assure you i mean nothing when I misquote. I even apologized above.
JA-
I think you misunderstand how orthodox Judaism works. Just because 100 charaidi Rabbis say science doesn't matter doesn't mean that is what orthodoxy as a whole believes. I can give you the names of several Rabbis that do believe in science and in reconciling science with Judaism.
Plus evolution is been proven just like the big bang has been proven, they are both theories. Widely accepted theories, but theories non-the-less. Just like you are unconvinced that G-D exists, these Rabbis are equally unconvinced that science has proven evolution. Who is right?
Also, rain frogs never happened and I believe if you look into the Ralbag he explains all the plagues in a scientific way that makes sense, I believe.
Also, there are Egyptian papyrus that have been discovered that state that the Nile turned to blood and that darkness covered the land. So don't take the bibles word for it, take the Egyptian's word for it.
I think you misunderstand how orthodox Judaism works. Just because 100 charaidi Rabbis say science doesn't matter doesn't mean that is what orthodoxy as a whole believes.
The de facto leaders of Orthodoxy are anti-science. Yes, there is a modern wing that's less so, but they are less influential (and perhaps more importantly, less fertile.)
>less fertile.
LOL
Anyways, I think Etan's point is, they don't own Judaism, so screw them. Also, Israel seems to attract more of the modern thinkers than the US. A lot of moderns end up making Aliyah.
HH-
I wish you were right, but the religious in Israel are dominated by the ultra orthodox. Although, I think you are right about olim.
However, my point is that there are several divisions of orthodoxy. Just like someone can't say that all of Judaism believes that you should keep kosher, because the reformed do not believe it. Therefore, one can not say that orthodoxy as a whole does not believe in science. You could say that ultra orthodoxy does not, but since there is a large group in orthodoxy that does not agree with them, I think it is an ignorant type of statement.
I mean, I can name you several really big orthodox Rabbis that think differently. Like Rabbis in YU, the OU, CRC, Star-K. I am not talking about non-influential people. These people poskin halachic questions based on science.
There are people, like the agudah, that don't care about science, but again there are a lot of great people on both sides. Although, I think you are right, they are bigger. But I would not call them the leaders.
Etan:
I agree with all that. What I was trying to say is that Orthodoxy as a whole has acted as an anti-science force. I'm not saying you have to be anti-science to be Orthodox. (You do need to either fudge your Orthodoxy by, e.g., not really believing in the Exodus and Matan Torah or by having extremely loose standards for what you will believe in or by not knowing or caring about that stuff.)
I am unsure what you mean by loose standards. Do you mean to say that it would be loose to explain all the plagues in a scientific way? For example, this article found in Medical Humanities
"Three thousand and six hundred years ago the island of Santorini (Thera) blew its top. In a cataclysmic volcanic eruption, thirty cubic kilometres of pumice and volcanic ash buried the island and its civilisation. These dramatic events have given rise to a number of legends and myths including that of the lost city of Atlantis. The apparent sudden destruction of the Minoan civilisation on the Island of Crete used to be ascribed to this catastrophic event, although modern day archaeologists no longer believe this to be true. Moreover, the timing of the volcanic eruption was undoubtedly close to the timing of the exodus of the Jews from ancient Egypt and a rational explanation for the ten plagues described in the Old Testament follows some of the predicted events with a volcanic eruption of this magnitude."
For the rest of this scientific theory see http://mh.bmj.com/cgi/content/ex...xtract/27/2/
106.
So basically I am saying that I believe in the Rambam type of Judaism wehre most things are explainable through science one just has to figure them out. However, even the Rambam way of thinking would admit that Har Sinai and a few other things in Jewish history were directly done by G-D.
Do you mean to say that it would be loose to explain all the plagues in a scientific way?
LOL, yes, that would be a good example.
Oh, but ok then that is what I believe and I think most people that think about it and believe in the Bible would also.
Also, let me just mention JA that I enjoy having conversations with you, I find you very respectful and non-condescending. I appreciate that since there are a lot of people that are closed minded and don't even care to discuss things. Oh and they are very condescending and disrespectful.
>Also, let me just mention JA that I enjoy having conversations with you, I find you very respectful and non-condescending.
::SNORT::
It is true, with my experiences with him. I am guessing you have had otherwise. I definitely disagree with him on many things but its true.
If it makes you feel better, I like you too HH. And that is the truth.
awww
Thanks, Etan. 
You too. I think HH gets pretty angry when I attack Orthodoxy, and probably I could be a little more sensitive to people's feelings. I do try though.
Oh, but ok then that is what I believe and I think most people that think about it and believe in the Bible would also.
Well sure, but you believe it because you believe in the Bible first. If you came at it objectively, you'd put no more stock in these "explanations" than you put in Muslim or Christian apologetics.
Jewish Atheist:
"To continue to exist, religions -- at least fundamentalist ones like Islam and Orthodox Judaism -- must constantly convince their followers that science is untrustworthy, that their religious books are more reliable than archaeology and history and textual criticism and geology and biology and astronomy."
WTF are you smoking
I know about Orthodox Judaism, but where has there ever been an anti-science wing among Islam? I don't remember any creationist movement lead by muslims attacking evolution
In fact it was a religious muslim, Nasir Al Din Al Tusi, who came up with evolution centuries before Darwin came along
All of western civilization is based on the foundations laid by the islamic world. the western secular thought you love so much was fathered by Ibn Rushd. Historically Islam has been the most pro-science religion
for a man who claims adherance to rationality, I suggest you go get some of it lest you continue sounding more and more like the religious zealots you despise.
"Iran's lie works (for Iranians) in large part due to the influence of Islam."
Iran is one of the few nations willing to stand up for the Palestinians against Israeli genociden and I commend Ahmadinjad for the facts he presented in his speech
Iran as a religious country is also greatly expanding in its scientific fields, they have many of their own technologies most of which you don't hear about in the West due to censorship.
Shalmo stop spreading your Islam loving, holocaust denying hate around the Jewish blogosphere. Go to some Muslim blogs and just post there.
Shalmo,
Either you don't know what "genocide" means, or you're an idiot.
Gentlemen,
I have realized the best thing, is to just ignore Shalmo. Seriously.
Not sure what the lie is:
"Religion is the greatest source of human suffering"
Check.
"Religion is most often overlooked as that source"
Check.
OTD usually has a real good handle on these things. He's also known to be very rational and never exagerrates:
"the object of "satires" and other such barbarity."
Tee hee.
On topic of post however, I don't really know how much is a matter of repetition. Very often somebody only needs to hear what they want to hear once and they can spit that back as gospel truth.
Etan, much of what you said it is hard to take seriously. For example, you said "I think those scientists made up the whole carbon dating thing." That's so absurd it isn't funny. It isn't even clear why you would think that. C-14 dating is extremely well-understood, relying on very basic physics. So what part do you think they "made up"? And how has this massive conspiracy of made up dating somehow given correct results for so many different things? Moreover, why would you care? Even if C-14 dating didn't work, you'd still have a lot of other evidence for an old earth. Indeed, C-14 dating only works out to about 50,000 years. After that you need to use other dating methods.
As to your claim about Egyptian records of the Nile turning to blood, do you have a citation for that?
The Rambam's method isn't to accuse the learned men of his era of making things up. The Rambam's method is to take what they know and see what he can do with it.
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