You totally misunderstood what Harry was saying.
Did I? How?
Seems to me that what he was saying is in a sense is that God created a set rules and now they work on automatic. If I misunderstood him, than so did others.
He was saying from a strictly philosophical POV, nature runs its course. But from a theological POV (i.e. OJ), God has attributes i.e. God can save children from cancer if you daven hard enough / give enough tzedakah etc.
Either/or.
so which does he hold by, a phylisophical or theological hashkafa? Cause of course, what IS the difference if a child gets cancer, or your dog gets cancer?
> so which does he hold by, a phylisophical or theological hashkafa?
Both of course. But for that comment he was just talking philosophically, or to use his terminology - what's 'logically satisfying'.
I think Keneth Miller does a very good job of this in Finding Darwin's God.
What does keneth miller "do?"
He is a biologist best known for being both strongly pro evolution and a religious Christian. He played a major role in the Dover case against ID.
so what does he discuss in relation to this post?
Balancing having some sort of personal God, one that you could pray to, and having God who is not directly involved in the day to day running of the world. A God who simply created nature.
soooooo, its simply diesm. but you also pray to Him
I don't think you can have it both ways, and I think it is a clear case of cognitive dissonance. Unless you want to argue that G-d allows people to interact with the world in a Deism way, and also allows for close personal connections, but I think that is a different argument than the one you are bringing forth.
The God of Ken Miller is interested in bringing human beings to a knowledge of him.So there is revelation; human beings become aware of the divine.
As I understand the Rambam, unless one is on a higher spiritual level, one lives entirely in the world of teva (nature). But Ahavat Hashem and Yirat Hashem may raise you to a level where a more direct Divine interaction may happen.
Personally, I say "Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnibenevolent" - choose any two. :>)
"The God of Ken Miller is interested in bringing human beings to a knowledge of him.So there is revelation; human beings become aware of the divine.
Benzion Chinn | Homepage | 03.16.09 - 8:18 am | # "
I hope you are explaning it wrong, because it does not appear that the divine is interested in bringing human beings to a knowledge of him. (That is, most human beings, do not have clear knowledge, so if the divine does have such an interest, it's not doing a very good job)
The God that Ken Miller believes in, and mine as well, is willing to take the backroad and allow things to work out gradually. Theist or Atheist one cannot escape the fact that human beings have existed in the shadow of this idea of the divine. Either this is some mass insanity or there is some higher purpose being played out.
I don't believe that there is a single, magic bullet, answer. There are a number of different ways of looking at things which helpt, but the emotive side of the question is stronger than the technical side.
But might I suggest that 1) all things being equal, we might presume you CAN have it both ways because to presume otherwise is a set up for a false dilemma. 2) As compelling of a question as it is, justifiably so, there is a storng ellement of an appeal to emotion fallacy involved. 3)Humans have "ruled" that the downsides and risks associated with life are acceptable tradeoffs for the opprotunity of life by the vast majority of people procreating and avoiding death/not committing suicide.
I think that these points are correct, but it doesn't help one feel any better when faced with the issue in person, r'l.
The way I would explain this idea would be that, according to the rationalists, G-D controls the world through the natural order. Meaning, G-D set up the rules of nature and that is how the world is governed, however, this does not preclude the ability for G-D to intervene and save someone from cancer. I mean why do some people survive cancer and others don't? This, I believe the rationalists like Rambam would say, is divine intervention.
Also, the Rambam says that the people that have a greater understanding and therefore connection to G-D are more directly watched over by G-D. This would mean that there is a greater likely hood that G-D would intervene and save an extremely righteous person than someone who is an atheist. However, as I said before, G-D would still use the nature.
Etan,
Well, going by your second paragraph, you are then stuck with theodicy. There are plenty of righteous that die of cancer at young ages with kids and atheists thrive. Seems if you have a system, it needs to work in all aspects. This is actually why I am not the biggest fan of Rambam. I think the only honest answer you can give, is that you really don't know.
Wait a second, I said that there is a greater likely hood He would intervene and save a righteous person. However, the way Rambam explains it is that an atheist is left to nature. Naturally an atheist could be saved from his cancer or not, but the point of the Rambam is G-D is not using divine intervention there. By a righteous person, He does intervene, whether it be the righteous person dies or not.
You might say, why does G-D let them die? I would say to you that every person has a specified amount of time on this earth and maybe this is how G-D is taking this righteous person back in his time. All I am saying is that the idea of the Rambam is not saying we know, but just that clearly a righteous person is not governed by nature, but rather through G-D. It is similar to the idea by Nadav and Avihu when they brought an inappropriate fire before G-D and they were taken directly by G-D, telling us that the extremely righteous are directly governed by G-D.
Also, my problem with people who say that a righteous person suffers and a wicked person thrives is that how do you know. First off, how do you know he is righteous and how do you know he is suffering. I have met so many chasidim in meisharim that are so happy they live in a simple way and on the other hand I have met people that say they don't believe in G-D have huge mansions and are the unhappiest people in the world. Going back to the cancer idea, according to the Rambam you could say one of two things, either this guy is not that righteous and he just seems like he is, or he is righteous and it is his time to go and this is how G-D is bringing him to the next world.
"No man shall see Me and live."
>"No man shall see Me and live."
Seems to be the only "answer" available.
the problem here is that there are different versions of God in Judaism
You have the henotheistic god of the Torah who is a bloodthirsty savage; cursing a man to have his bowels fall of, gets bears to kill 42 children making fun of Elisha's bald head, etc etc
Then there is the anthropormorphic god of the midrash, which started henotheistic and then became universal
And finally there is the Maimonidean version of God, which most Jews today adhere to, and which Maimonides ripped of Islam along with other sufi concepts, since he believed that the midrash god was obviously kefirah.
So you first have to decide why Judaism doesn't have a consistent view on God, and whether its better for you to make a view on God based on what you feel in you heart, or stick to a primitive and outdated book's version on it. But then ofcouse you have to reconcile the two versions of Yahweh in the Torah and in the Talmud.
Here are a few links on where Maimonides got his conception of God from the likes of sages like Ibn Rushd. Perhaps you will find them useful in your search:
http://www.al-islam.org/knowinggod/
http://www.al-islam.org/concept/
http://www.al-islam.org/GodAttributes/
Holy Hyrax, in the fundamental jewish concept of Ein Od Milvado, and the first of the 13 principles, we are told that G-d, the G-d of the bible, who is the G-d of the medrash who is the G-d of the Rambam that nothing happens in this world unless G-d deems it necessary to happen.
the details are hard to connect to, especially with the example you gave of a child getting, Heaven forbid, cancer, we cant know why the One Above does such things but we have to know principles and one of them here is the it benefits the neshama in ways one cannot fathom.
Commenting by HaloScan
