Social Sense
Absolutely disgusting. You are right. GAG!
I wish I had something intellectual to add my friend..but I have nothing but indignation! 
Beneath Comtempt.
Wouldn't one (serving in Congress), upon being told that an all expense trip is being paid to some country "of interest" (Iraq - 2002, in this case), just take a moment and ask who is fronting the money for aforementioned junket?
I think I would, wouldn't you?
Further, wouldn't you wonder just WHY someone is parting with their money to throw it in your direction?
Again, I believe I would, and I bet you would too.
These clowns, apparently think that money just flows from some wonderful place to their pockets...for no reason other than they are worthy. Right.
At minimum, these gents are idiots, however, I suspect they are worse. Much worse.
Ok, mustang, this and two dollars gets you on the MBTA. What's your point?
We had the entire Bush administration manipulated by Ahmed Chalabi. Shameless lying about Hussein's military capability and a lot of strutting when we defeated a nation with no air force, navy, armor, missiles or standing army.
That's yesterday.
Now we have pipeline attacks, green zone missile attacks and al-Sadr close to formal civil war.
All the while we have this noise about the surge working simply because we've allowed the ethnic cleansing of neighborhoods and paying off warlords.
Why not deal with what's happening NOW, since most everyone who has been involved in this sorry useless mess has explaining to do.
Next thing you know we'll be hearing about how effective McCain will be. Sure. Here's a guy who MAY (and I doubt it) have some minor tactical experience and the right is going to push him as someone who can handle a major, major strategic issue.
We sure could use some clear heads in this country. Ain't too many around though. Since you are military it might be a better use of your skills (I am NOT being sarcastic) to explain why the American military has NOT learned to deal with insurgencies.
Ducky
We aren’t talking about McCain; let’s remain focused on the issue. You are of course correct to note that the event involving the Three Amigos happened several years ago; we are only just now finding out about it because the revelation comes from an FBI investigation surrounding an individual who is alleged to have ties to terrorism. For me, the issue here goes far beyond one involving the personal and professional integrity of members of congress; there is also the issue of loyalty to our nation, and to the interests of the people they represent back home. In taking the oath of office, these three men swore to preserve and protect the Constitution of the United States, which as I am sure you know, clearly outlines the responsibility of the Congress.
On that note, it is clearly not the role of Congress of investigate foreign policy through fact-finding missions that are no more than junkets and opportunities for political grandstanding. Rather, it is the State Department, as part of the executive branch, who is responsible for establishing and maintaining foreign relationships, and for reporting on these to the Congress at their request. Moreover, Congress can turn to a number of independent agencies for additional information or perspective. I have my own suspicions about the Three Amigos, but one thing is clear; as elected officials, they did not demonstrate common sense or mature judgment.
As to the issue of addressing insurgency, few people understand the complexity of military operations. If there were one justification for a host of “Murphy’s Laws,” it would be the art and science of military operational planning and execution. It is interesting that as a liberal you suddenly think that we are not doing enough to bend the insurgents to our will; amazing only because according to those suffering from LDHD, we are either not doing enough, or we are doing too much.
I believe General Petraeus is testing the mettle of Mr. Maliki and his military leaders to resolve the problem in Basra. Maliki has given sectarian insurgents three days to surrender their weapons — which is a bit too liberal for me, but we shall see how this unfolds. If Maliki (and his generals) cannot defend Basra as their conduit to world markets, then Iraq (and we) has a serious problem. We have to allow the Iraqis an opportunity to learn from their mistakes.
I like the left blaming Bush's vetting "they checked on this trip, and THEY didn't find anything wrong"...as if Saddam couldn't lie to us and never did, right?
disgusting is right, mustang. Semper Fi (funny, it feels wrong to even include Semper Fi on a subject like this...seems dishonorable to me)
Hi Z:
We should recall that politics is that conduit through which men can raise themselves from the slums, without actually divesting themselves from it.
“Always Faithful” is a wonderful sentiment. It emphasizes high virtue among friends, and it typifies honorable service to God, country, and family. It has great significance among only a few, and certainly none among those who hide their subversion beneath the cloak of service to the people.
Semper Fi,
What was the legislative result of the visit? There was quite a bit of conning going on about children's deaths caused by sanctions. The worst that came of it was oil for food which shut him up but didn't let him jump start his military programs.
Yes, I know there was a fair amount of graft (with Americans and Australians center stage in far greater effect than Kofi Annan's kid). So it's not clear that these congressmen were taken in at all.
Not too much of interest, yet.
Iraq isn't like Chile or some other situation in which there is an existing power structure in place which can provide the illusion that the successor is anything more than a political rival to the recently "removed dictator" and just happens to be friendly to the interests of the United States (read: multinational corporations).
It's a reason why Trifectaboy's ham-handed general "war on terror" is only making things worse. Al Qaeda was only a handful of extremist punks when they attacked in 2001. If Presnit Trifecta had accepted the diplomacy offered by dozens of horrified countries who are generally considered to be "hostile" to US interests, rounding up most of the worst of AQ was quite possible, including Osama bin Hidin'. Instead, he went for the "glory" and decided the hornet's nest looked like a cool freakin' piñata, creating dozens and possibly hundreds of ObL wannabes.
So, if you take out Sadr, what you get is another Sadr, only different. He'll still be quite capable of the very atrocities you think you're preventing by offing the original.
To paraphrase Dante Hicks, "We're not even supposed to be there today."
Sure "Always faithful", the Marines, "Semper Fi". are ALL wonderful, mustang. That's why it hurts me to even write those words in a comment about this kind of dishonorable situation.
I just hope they don't go down in history as something which WAS, like "There will always be an England", something I never thought would not be true. And now, I'm not so sure!
Ducky, when you write, “So, if you take out Sadr, what you get is another Sadr, only different. He'll still be quite capable of the very atrocities you think you're preventing by offing the original," you are only half correct. Sure, another Moqtada al-Sadr might step up to the plate, but he’d definitely understand that he only has so much “wiggle room.” The point is academic with respect to US policy; it’s almost entirely an Iraqi show now. The question is how much nonsense the Iraqi government is willing to endure. They understand how dangerous Sadr is to establishing an orderly society . . . and that, more than any other factor, will govern how they deal with him and others.
If the “general war on terror” were making matters worse, then we would have already been attacked since 9/11. It isn’t that they haven’t tried; it is rather that now we seem to be paying more attention. At least, I hope that’s true.
I cannot debate “what might have been” with you . . . but it does seem to me that you overlook one factor in your argument to give love another chance: in seeking a peaceful solution to the question of Al-Qaeda, Hussein’s support for state terrorism, and so on . . . tell me again how many UN resolutions there were. And tell me the date upon which any of these were effective “dictates.”
Nevertheless, the point of this essay (again) was crooked, self-serving politicians like the love of your life, Nancy Pelosi. I wish I could say that we deserve better, Duckster . . . but we don’t. We elected these buffoons.
they didn’t know the Iraqi Security Service financed their trip. They also did not realize that Iraq targeted them as useful pawns in an effort to reduce UN sanctions.
As crooked as most politicians are, one would think they'd know a scam when presented with one.
Apparently not.
They are indeed buffoons.
Sorry mustang, but you're going to have to move in pretty mysterious ways to demonstrate that Hussein was a high level sponsor of terrorism.
I know there's the one about giving a few bucks to some Palestinians but that's hardly anything that wasn't true of ever Arab government in the region (plus Iran).
Besides, I don't live in Israel and Israel is not important to U.S. interests so we should concentrate on threats against the U.S. and Hussein was trivial.
What we have accomplished is turning most all of the Arab world against us when we had an opportunity to change things in our favor after 9/11. The "axis of evil" idea was a colossal blunder that is draining us.
Now a few years later the Euro is a bigger player in international finance than the dollar. Yet we continue to cling to antique notions of the effectiveness of a massive military (one that broke in Iraq).
AOW, again I ask what was the outcome of the visit. That might be an indicator of whether or not they were duped.
I also point to the absolute mendacity of the Bush administration and how easily you were duped by the "WMD" bullcrap that was spread.
"Lions and tigers and bears. Oh my" That was a moment that projected an image of America as a bunch of frightened children. The right wing was an embarrassment.
Mr. Ducky,
So very many points, I cannot cover them in any real detail, but here goes with some ideals for you to take a serious look at:
Insurgency and to successfully deal with them: Check the following: WWI and Arabia (then controlled by Turkey aka Ottoman Empire). Note: I wasn't just T.E. Lawrence. Allenby had a major role. Further, note how Britain and France made a hash of some things and did a few good things. Next: Malaya (pre-independence and now Malaysia). What worked and what didn't. Kenya..same deal. Vietnam under the French...and later (not "under") with the Americans...Westmoreland vs. Abrams and the Marines' Combined Action Program and its successes. Next: Algeria and what worked and didn't. Note: Lots of Algerians, despite all the talk of wanted to have their own country....fled to France and today Algerians are fighting Algerians. I forgot the how Magsaysay cleaned up the Philippines...though they fallen again into bad choices and adopting family/connnections over merit.
Another thought: Often it is better to have a "small footprint" (few Americans) so we are not seen as taken over everything. We opted for that, though the State Department didn't really have a handle on just how to get Iraq and Iraqis "together". Gen Petraeus has got the right plan. Security must be enforced and then (sadly) the slow process of building the economy and trust among factions in Iraq.
Thus, as in every war I studied (mostly Franco-Prussian to present) all sorts of changes had to be made to get on the success track, because assumptions and "intell" proved to be incorrect. Cultures, histories and what motivates one crowd v. another are often very different. The trick is to see the errors as quickly as possible and fix them.
Side Note: The Education Industry in the U.S. hasn't really figured out their problems and adequately fixed them after forty plus years. Same deal with welfare and poverty.
Another thought: Note exactly where Iraq is on the map. Note the countries it shares borders with. Think about how you want to handle the Greater War....and it is going to go on for some time. What do you want to do to limit the war in terms of deaths (to all sides) and limit the expenditure of money (ours)?
How about decisions that have to be made in a democratic republic (us) in which the people have a say? How can you convince them that "Dancing with the Stars", the Superbowl and who is cheating on whom in marriage is not nearly as important as what is happening in the greater world? We, as you know, are not living in the world the way it was before WW II. The massive increase in population has massive implications. Rapid communication and rapid world travel has impacted all of us in a major way, yet, the citizenry of the U.S. mostly (my take) are hardly interested nor paying much attention.
There are lots of weaponry of mass destruction (and not just nukes) around the world. This coupled
Mr. Ducky,
Regret my longish tome. Lucky you, the last third was cut off.
I remain,
The Semi-Maven of Military History and Sometime Participant on the "Two Way Rifle Range."
"TAD" Acknowledges Flaws.
There IS a headline.
OK, I type so fast that I make spelling, grammar, and usage errors that I should not.
No excuse, really.
However, I was always good on a PRC-25 calling in air support, medevacs and arty/mortars.
We all have our strengths and weaknesses, eh?
Tad,
//I was always good on a PRC-25 calling in air support, medevacs and arty/mortars.//
As a former medic in the Army, I spent about a year and a halftime in an artillery unit.
As you know (while others may not), the artillery's mission is to shoot, move, and communicate. Being attached to a line battery to provide medical support during training exercises, I didn't have much to do unless someone got a scratch that warranted a bandaid.
During those moments I hold near and dear, I usually spent time on my litter (stretcher) enjoying nature, relaxing. That is until guys like you called something like a fire mission, then a quick "march order". First, it got loud. Then, they made me roust my ass and get into the back of a 2 1/2 ton, to go to the next place where I could get comfortable for a minute (or two), until guys like you made us repeat the entire scenario.
I just wanted to say thanks for the exercise.
Doc LASunsett,
Marine Infantry Guy (me) is always glad to be of service. (Grin)
I recall those thrilling daze of yesteryear....and....YIKES....we really, really lived under awful conditions for long periods of time.
And, I'd do it again in the twinkling of an eye.
Finally, Sir, thank you for serving. My life was saved by Corpsmen (read: Medics). Gallant folks....Gallant.
ummm, trying to chirp after reading your comments is a serious challenge. While you gentlemen spent your time serving our country, I was serving beers.
Back to the topic. This Iraqi paid trip only feeds to the lack of respect the public has for Congress. If their importance was not in protecting our well being, they would be trivialized to a student council.
Excellent observation, Obob. And, scarey too. Gad, I hate politicians.
Semper Fi
LA, I think you would be utterly amazed by the changes to field med since you served on active duty. Amazing technology and phenomenal equipment.
I too am grateful for your service.
//I think you would be utterly amazed by the changes to field med since you served on active duty. Amazing technology and phenomenal equipment.//
It's been almost 30 years since I served in this role, so I have little doubt that huge advances have been made in this area. Advances in all kinds of medicine have been exponential, in that same time.
Twenty years ago, who would have dreamed that you could implant a defibrillator into a human (like a pacemaker), to deliver a life-saving shock to someone in a life-threatening abnormal rhythm? It's common place now.
In about that same amount of time, Dr. Lawrence Einhorn (IU Med Ctr. Oncologist) developed a chemo-therapy regimen that changed testicular cancer from a death sentence into 90% curable.
The kind of research that brings these kinds of things to pass, could not exist in this present form, if we adopt socialized medicine. Field medicine, included.
But we did what we could, with what we had to work with. The most daring life-saving measure was with my roommate (while in garrison), when he had an allergic reaction to a night at Red Lobster when they had an all-you-can-eat crab legs night. That was the night he learned that he was allergic to seafood.
The daring life-saving measure? I made the CQ call an ambulance ASAP and then just watched him to make sure he could breathe. Ambulance was there very quickly.
He lived. And since I outranked him, I ordered to to cease and desist such activity in the future. He went on to be an officer, I was discharged at the end of my enlistment, a couple of months later. I lost track of him after that.
Every time I read "LA" I think someone's addressing me because my screen name at FPM for years was ZinLA! Hi, LA Sunsett!
And thank you SO much for your service. Are you in the medical business now, if you don't mind saying? (IS the LA for Los Angeles, by the way?)
Hi Z,
//Are you in the medical business now, if you don't mind saying? (IS the LA for Los Angeles, by the way?)//
Yes and yes. Although I have not lived in LA for many years, I still have fond memories of So Cal., as it was then. Most all of my family have moved away, too. I only have one cousin and an aging aunt still in the area.
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