Social Sense
Thanks for visiting my blog and commenting.
I am not for caning, but that is not to say that I think we should be lenient on people that commit crimes against others. And this includes juveniles.
Having worked in the Department of Correction in my state, I can write a book about criminal recidivism and other subjects. But all in all, the problem lies within the culture we have opted to embrace.
Parents do not discipline their children as they did when I was young. Dr. Spock can be thanked for that. Not only have the abandoned spanking, when necessary, they have abandoned consequences of any kind.
Instead, they have tried to be friends with their kids, instead of parents. Talking works sometimes and should be the first order for age appropriate children. But there are times when talking doesn't get the job done.
The abolishment of corporal punishment (in worst case scenarios) in the schools hasn't helped either. By stripping the teachers of much needed leverage at an age when it can be most effective, its easy to see why there is no real respect for authority in the secondary schools. Parents, through threats of legal action against the education system, have successfully enabled a generation of thugs. By telling the schools that no one can spank their kids but them has been one of the major causes of the deterioration of teacher authority.
It wouldn't be so bad if they'd carry through, but the parents do not spank their kids when they get them home. (In my day, if I got paddled at school, I got it again when I got home.) Now, they get grounded to their rooms with Play Station, stereos, TVs, and other amenities. I have to ask, how is that punishment?
So by the time we get to the penal system, it is no wonder why so many of our criminals care very little about going back. They get schools, softball leagues, three squares a day, TV, and a whole host of services that are comparable to being confined to their rooms. I do not mind trying to educate some of these people on the hope that some of them will take advantage of it and never return. But when I saw how the computers were far better than what the local schools had, it made me wonder just what the hell our society's priorities are?
I would be for caning bad kids. Hell, I would just be happy if they could still spank them in school. We put kids in jail because parents fail to discipline and then we wonder where we went wrong.
Pain is a quick teacher. A few whacks might get bad kids to reconsider...
This is not the problem. The problem is that parents are not taking the time to raise, teach, train, and guide their children morally, emotionally, and basically on a daily basis. The fact people do not discipline their children has caused this dilhema and then we expect the government to take care of the problem after the fact. Pathetic.
People should never allow their children to get to this point--just don't have them if you cannot love them enough to help them and guide them because you are too selfish.
oh don't get me started!
this is a classic case of going to another country and then pleading ignorance of the laws of that country! much like the "miscreants" who endeavour to change or bypass our laws.
i'm in arkansas where corporal punishment still reigns in the schools - i sign the waiver if for no other reason than to show my children they are not ABOVE the rules.
fortunately they are great kids and have so far had no reason to be disciplined in any matter.
there is a small town near here where they caught a couple of young boys vandalizing an historical church a few years back and they received hefty public swats with parental permission.
spare the rod, spoil the child.
as far as the add or adhd goes, too many parents rest on that lame excuse - trust me, my stepson played that game for a number of years and he's now a worthless pothead. God forgive me, but there are so many things this kid did to ruin our family through calculated means.
Great comments all....mustang, you are so right. I very well remember the Singapore fiasco and cringed as I saw the kid get off so easy.
"When in Rome..." show some respect. His parents did him a disservice letting him escape punishment.
Maybe he'd be a better man if he knew there were consequences for his actions.
He said he was sniffing butane because of the Singapore experience? See what he learned? OH, my gosh.
Our country's lost with kids who don't cringe from that "LOOK" our dads gave us. And, boy, did WE stop doing what we were contemplating and we knew he'd read our minds! Remember?
Yes, the punishment in Singapore clearly corrected his behavior.
Singapore is nothing but a fairly large city. It is essentially a police state. I expect you are more willing to accept that than I am.
Anyway, the fact that we have the highest per capita prison population in the world is ample proof that punishment is the absolute answer.
Ducky, once again you’ve missed the point; please don't tell me that the statistics of adolescent crimes are of no concern to you, especially the 2,000 young people charged with capital crimes. But I do agree with you that the answer is not punishment, since that simply suggest crimes have already been committed. What I think we should focus on is preventing unacceptable behavior. Part of this is the kind of parenting (tough love) that ultimately produces young people who are respectful of persons and property that belongs to other people.
Parents can help to achieve a higher standard of behavior by disciplining their children; teach them that certain behavior is unacceptable, and that there are stern consequences for unseemly behavior. State courts should pursue the same no-nonsense approach to punishment. The result should be that (1) fewer young people are committing crimes against persons and property, (2) that they are publicly shamed when they are caught doing so, and (3) the punishments are sufficiently severe to avoid future misconduct.
Modifying human behavior is not difficult except under the most unusual cases involving psychopaths. When parents and state courts make excuses for abhorrent behaviors, they reinforce the negative; the longer parents and society accommodate that negative, the more serious that behavior comes, over time.
Parents have failed to do their jobs, and lenient courts and punishments perpetuate unacceptable behavior. The post-Singapore behavior of Mr. Fay illustrates that stepping in to lessen his punishment, to make excuses for his behavior, did nothing more than convince him that he could escape taking responsibility, and avoid consequences for his own behavior.
This may be entirely acceptable to you, and if it is then you (along with millions of others in this country) are exactly why adolescent crime is increasing. Over populated prisons are the results of too many people who share your view. No consequences, “no big deal,” and increase their Ritalin. As for the citizens of Singapore, they do not tolerate impolite behavior, they do not tolerate any drug activity (the penalty is death), and did I mention that they have extremely low incidents of crime? Apparently, they are doing something right and maybe we could learn something from them.
Nanc:
You are exactly right, “Spare the rod, and spoil the child.” In defense of some parents, we made a wrong turn when the liberal state began arresting parents for spanking their children—and no, I don’t condone torturing children, but I do suggest that state interference in parenting has led us to our present state of affairs. Why are these “statistics” not alarming to Americans? Why are we as a society so unwilling to acknowledge that (a) the problem of juvenile delinquency is out of hand, and (b) we can do something about it?
We should not be surprised that a presidential candidate has lied about her “personal experiences” in Bosnia, nor that people are now running to the microphone to explain why Clinton lied: she is exhausted, she misspoke, and everyone does it. Good grief! We are plagued with dishonest politicians, and we have an epidemic of serious adolescent crimes simply because we enable dishonest or miscreant behavior.
What is there not to understand about this?
Layla, you are so right. Perhaps society should hold parents equally accountable for the crimes of their offspring . . . I can hear the liberals wailing now, can't you?
Semper Fi
Z, thank you for your comments. I recall being in the woodshed a few times with my father. It did convince me that not being in the woodshed was a viable alternative to misbehavior. We need to revisit this, get our kids off drugs, and we need to get liberal state governments out of family business. If anything, state laws should reinforce stern parenting, not accommodate bad kids.
Semper Fi
Big Dog:
I remember when "shame" used to be a major impediment to getting in trouble. We didn't want to shame our parents, or ourselves. Today, getting in trouble is a badge of courage.
Thank you for stopping by, sir.
Karen, you are welcome here anytime. Thank you for stopping by.
Semper Fi
LA
In my day, if I got paddled at school, I got it again when I got home. Now, [kids] get grounded to their rooms with Play Station, stereos, TVs, and other amenities. I have to ask, how is that punishment?
Exactly. I was paddled in school one time, and I realized when it happened it was only part one of a several part saga for me when I got home. In addition to meeting my father in the woodshed, I was also awarded my brother's chores for a month. But you will note that the liberals who oppose stern discipline also have no solution to the statistics I cited in my post; they would rather have kids on death row than walking around with a sore rear-end. I guess I just don't get it . . .
Semper Fi
I'm not sure that I have missed the point, mustang.
Discipline is absolutely necessary to any healthy development. That can't be argued.
But what I read in the article is only corporal discipline and a general agreement that the lack of corporal discipline and that only is the crux of the problem.
I admit, I'm skeptical of the value of corporal punishment and I don't think that prison which is a last resort can do much but indicate we have a serious problem when prisons are a national growth industry.
It goes back to the family and the reasons for the prevalence of divorce and out of wedlock births. Of course, as a leftist, I tend to see most problems as economic and that holds much truth here, but the spiritual dissolution is as critical and much more difficult to resolve. Especially in a culture that has gone totally overboard and gone a long way to defining itself on the basis of unbridled consumption.
Ducky, punishment IS the answer; when children are small enough to benefit from it. Nobody has to hit anybody, if that offends you so deeply, nobody WANTS to hit anybody...but there are punishments which work.
All we're saying is that kids need to know there are consequences to bad behavior; if they learn that when they're little, they probably won't mess up when they're older.
why jump to the ridiculous notion that we're talking about PRISON punishment? By that time, it's too late. THAT's the problem here now.
punishment and rewards.
pluckster? you claim to be a christian, yes? surely, even you a childless man can see the writing on the wall.
we've powdered the behinds of our children well into their twenties and sometimes thirties - made them unaccountable and told them they are entitled.
mustang has nailed it - we've given far too much power to the state!
when our son came home from school one day at about the age of six and said, "mama, the teacher had a talk with our class today - she said that if our parents spank us we should call the police (911) right away." i went over to the phone, handed it to him and said (paraphrased), "please, call them - i need a couple of weeks off - not to worry, son - they'll put you and your sister in foster care where the people are less than nice - call them, here, let me dial it for you - tell them i'm going to spank you and to pleeeeeeeeeeeeeze come and arrest me - I NEED A BREAK!"
that was the very last time he mentioned that ridiculous idea - he just so happens to be our child who spankings have benefitted - his sister is very compliant and easygoing.
now that he's approaching 17, he'll tell me that he's sorry he was such a brat and that i should have been harder on him. the only times we've swatted were when he was warned or if he put his own or another child's life in peril - as a last resort.
as far as spankings causing violent children - what a crock of hooey! he's only hit his sister once in self defense. she, however, nails him on a regular basis!
Z, punishment or discipline.
If you are talking about punishing a child, who much more often than not has no idea why he/she is being punished then you are simply flat out wrong.
Responsible people simply do not advocate punishment in a situation where the offense is not understood.
Discipline, which limits behavior, is a different matter.
nanc, I don't advocate violence against children. "Spare the rod ..." is incorrect. I take my morality from the gospels, not the OT.
Youve outdone yourself yet again my friend.......Aside from the fact that I take great issue with the argument that persons with ADHD or its adult equivalent are somehow not responsible for their conduct, it would appear that Singapore was correct all along...indeed!..Imagine if kids were actually trepidating when they got arrested instead of insulting the cops! 
dontcha just love it when a parent, when confronted with their little beast's deficiencies will say, "that's just the way they are..."
plucky - a good swift openhanded swat on the hindend with an explanation has NEVER hurt a child - it's not considered violence at all in most cultures considering what some people put their children through in the name of normal.
Readers,
Do most of you agree that Mustang ought to be writing on the professional scene? Don't most of you think his commentary would be beneficial for many?
I am NOT an agent of Mustang, nor did he ask me to write these words.
I AM a friend and, more importantly, I believe he has lots (of value) to say.
************************
Note: I've been to Singapore and it is a great place. Though a pretty small island nation, they have embraced real education with ferocity. In a post-Industrial world (for some), they "sell" their brain-power. They do not have huge families that they cannot support. They do not tolerate drugs (it is a capital offense...I know this to be true as I had to read their laws (re: drugs) before pulling into port). The don't spit on the sidewalk nor throw trash in the street. I know a woman in her late sixties who travels round the world. She goes alone and brings back post cards. When she came back from Singapore, she told me that it was the safest place she'd ever been. She said the people were polite and helpful. She said she didn't notice any police presence. Further, she was amazed at how polite the drivers of cars were. Commenting on this, she said "They actually police themselves."
No, the people of Singapore have made decisions on how they want to live and what they will do to ensure a safe and sane society. If you think this is Dranconian or "1984ish" then go to the neighboring countries (very close to Singapore) in which prostitution, drugs, prirates, murder and anarchy/thugdoms abound.
Societies (and families) that reward negative behaviors...will get more.
None of this is funny or chic. In the name of liberty, we are killing ourselves. While I know that "blood leds" in the news biz, I also know that as a child I use to hitchhike. Those days are gone.
As a child, there were no drugs available to me. Those days are gone. As a child, I felt safe in my own town and the big cities around us. Those days are gone.
Why? Toleration of all sorts of bad behavior. This isn't TOLERANCE, this is cowardice and stupidity.
I sent a mailgram to all 100 U.S. Senators circa 1982. I asked them to do something about the illegal drug problem. What have they - and we - done? Not much.
Libertine and Liberty are not the same thing. Freedom and License are not either. Being Non-Judgemental means having No Standards.
End of Rant. For Now.
Mustang,
Again you've the rounds in the V ring.
Semper Fi
mustang can get a blog at townhall or submit articles to human events...yes, he is quite eloquent!
Tad; mustang ought to have a column...IN THE NEW YORK TIMES!! FRONT PAGE! How refreshing that would be. Semper Fi
Ducky, who would EVER advocate for punishing a child who doesn't know what he/she did? Why would you even suggest that's what I meant? Of COURSE you don't punish a child under those circumstances. That would be like punishing a 3 month old!
CONSEQUENCES are what I'm talking about, Ducky.......a child under a certain level of maturity doesn't understand consequences. I'm talking about parents I've seen who threaten a 10 yr old with "if you do that once more, you're going to bed" and the kid does it twenty times and nothing's followed through on. That okay with you? You think that sends a good message?
Angel, you are so right. What kind of kids have we raised who could consider insulting a cop to their face? Boy, when I was a kid, that was the last thing we'd have done. As an adult, I shake in my shoes to think of insulting a cop!
If I recall, he was to be punished for something really small, like throwing a gum wrapper in the street. Maybe one really good whack would have served ... to help him write a book!
Keep the steam up, Mustang! Pablo.
For over three decades, I have worked with lots of students with ADD or ADHD. Of all those students so diagnosed, only one turned into a criminal--and I could make the case that he was a true sociopath; in fact, he was so diagnosed by several psychiatrists.
On the other hand, I've had under my tutelage several students diagnosed with ADHD (never ADD) who simply seemed to me to be poorly disciplined at home.
In the past few decades, "cases" of ADD and ADHD have burgenoned. And in the past few years, "cases" of autism have soared.
But are all those "cases" the real deal? I don't think so. Some are, of course; but not all.
My father, a wise man, use to say, "A lot of crazy people don't hurt anyone else." The same could be said of those with learning disabilities.
At some point, individuals should take responsibility for their own actions. I guess that I'm not one for willy-nilly excuses.
How many cars has Michael Fay spraypainted in Singapore since his ass whoopin with a bamboo cane?
Commenting by HaloScan
