Could not disagree more.
Seven years of watching "Buffy" convinced me at the end that the only deep spiritual message Whedon and company could covey is Glouster's lament "We are to the gods as flies to wanton boys/they kill us for their sport." If the show "aspired to explore a higher meaning of life and purpose in the world" it ultimately came to the conclusion that there wasn't any.
"Veronica Mars" doesn't necessarily have the same concerns, but at least it makes no apologies for its cynicism.
I agree with Patrick. I could not disagree more about VM having an "emptiness" that Buffy didn't have.
Leaving aside problems any issues with Buffy, the main difference to me is that Veronica exists in the world of "film noir," which is all about cynicism. The concept of a "higher calling" would be absolutely foreign in film noir, because the point is that people are bad and that nice guys always finish last. And anyone who believes differently is a sucker.
Veronica is not motivated by any "higher calling," but instead by a pursuit of justice against the rampant corruption in the world. She's fueled by anger against the rich and powerful always winning against the poor and oppressed. She knows that nice guys always finish last, but she's a sucker for a lost cause.
But it's really anger that motivates her more than anything, and it's that anger that gives the show such a hard and cynical edge. Even when she's a marshmallow underneath the anger.
Maybe it's one's feelings about the style of film noir that influences one's feelings about VM, because I know that some people find it too dark and cynical and need a "ray of light" that the show never really provides. It's Chinatown, Jake. Or in this case, it's Neptune.
I was just about to write a comment about film noir and hard-boiled detective fiction when I noticed that Lynn had pretty much said. You're missing the point about VM: it's not meant to be Buffy; it's Chinatown transcribed to High School.
Regarding Patrick's first comment, well I too agree (as an ardent Buffy fan) that it offers no deep spiritual message: Whedon is an avowed atheist. That, however, is not the same thing as saying that there is no "higher meaning of life and purpose in the world". There are many of us who find meaning and purpose without the crutch of irrational and anachronistic spiritualism.
While I agree with the overall premise that VM is no Buffy, I cannot agree that the problem is that the characters have "no soul and lack an overall moral compass." I believe the opposite is true. Rather than displaying an "emptiness," I believe that VM, and the character of Veronica in particular, attempts to show how hard it is to try to do the right thing just because it is right, rather than because the main character is "chosen" to do right. It's about, in part, how difficult being moral is in contemporary society, particularly for the young. I think Veronica trys to do what is right even when it is not necessarily in her best interest because that is her moral choice. At least that's how I view it, I could be wrong.
Lynn-thanks for the support.
Darren-I think your reading of BvVS is the correct one (I am no longer a fan) and for your last comment-bully for you, from a irrational and anachronistic spriitualist.
I'm going to have to side with all the others here. I loved buffy, it had a lot going for it, but let's be honest, Kristin Bell brings so much to Veronica than Sarah could bring to Buffy. In fact I tended to often watch more for the cast of others in Buffy than for Buffy herself who was often morose, made stupid emotional decisons, and did what she had to do but not because she wanted to greatly, but because she felt trapped so often being the only one who could handle the situations. She dealt with inheriting this power and like in spider man great power=great responsibility. Veronica however is a powerful smart little cookie who lives in the real world and her vamps are the likes of rich playboys and the moral ambiguity of Neptune in general. I couldn't be happier with the progression of the show, and I think there ARE those moments where there's so much more. I also agree with everything said in regards to the film noir aspect by previous posters.
Another shout out from a irrational and anachronistic spiritualist.
I think that in general, VM is about moral ambiguity, and yes as the others have said, it's a noirish world there in Neptune.
Veronica finds herself trying to do the right thing in a world without a moral compass, which is unfortunately a much closer match to our world than the Buffyverse was.
BtVS was comforting in a way that VM is not precisely because it offered a relatively clear moral path. It might be heart-rending to kill your boyfriend to save the world but if you're chosen to save the world from unspeakable demons you do it anyway, because you know it's the right thing to do.
Veronica struggles weekly not only to do the right thing, but to *discover* the right thing to do.
What Veronica as a character lacks is a certain dimensionality. What does she do when she's not sleuthing? Does she ice-skate, shop for shoes, obsess about old Divinyls songs? She's witty, she's brave, she's sometimes haunted or wracked with guilt, but what about all the other things that go into a person, that have nothing to do with the seasonal arcs or the MotW?
And does she ever hang out with people just to hang out them? I hate to see all her relationships based strictly on use. On the needs of this week's plot. I appreciate that that the show attempts to 'hang a lantern' on this, but still...
Uh, much too long a comment. Moving along now.
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I should confess that I only started watching Buffy when it was for a class, and then I got hooked and ran through 5 seasons in 3 months - so story arcs and progress was much more evident than it may have been in a "time of viewing" situation.
That said, I've tried VM. Several friends were very hooked last year, and persuaded me to watch. And I did, and I really enjoyed some of the interactions between characters - especially Logan and Veronica.
This year, though, failed to hold my attention. Yes, it's a modern attempt at noir, a genre I love. They did it very well last year,... but what it's missing is what Buffy had in spades, although BtVS lost it in the last two years of the show.
Buffy was a teenager, and so were all the other characters. Sure, they were fighting supernatural beings and had powers and such...but at the core of everything, they were teenagers, and they acted like it. Teenage crushes, first loves, awkwardness, pimples, cramps, bad hair days.
VM has adults running around a high school setting. The only time I've truly enjoyed the show ahs been in the interactions between Veronica and Logan, because those feel like interactions between teenagers. The rest of it, I just don't buy - Veronica is a early 20s girl in a high school, as are the rest of the characters. Very rarely, they slip into being teens, and then the show grabs my attention, because then it feels like it's supposed to.
That said, I think that, provided VM gets renewed for another year or two, it gives the show much more potential than BtVS had, because the background they hang the stories on will be able to grow into the characters they've developed - they will become adults, and the cognitative dissonance that exists currently will disappear, and create what I think will become a very compelling show. The point at which BtVS began to fade - college and life beyond, areas Joss just isn't good at writing - should be where VM finally finds its feet.
They have developed Logan, Wallace, and Weevil...and continue to do so. Don't forget about Keith Mars, who development is so similar to that of Giles. Dick Casablancas is Cordelia.
(This comment may contain a spoiler or two if you have not yet watched the first season of Veronica Mars.)
I have to agree with the posters saying that Veronica Mars does seem to offer a "higher calling". Granted, it isn't one that directly involves the forces of darkness or an almost yearly apocolypse, but come on! Veronica has the SAME feelings of responsibility and moral obligation to the wronged people she continually helps. In fact, many of the people she helps are people that have been horrible to her in the past. Veronica's fire is NOT fueled purely by the simple gratification of putting baddies in the clink. She wants to change the world, people! Plus, she's got that whole martyr complex going on (mostly in the 2nd season, but it's still there). Talk about a higher calling!
And in response to the idea that Veronica Mars characters do not have "moral compasses": WHAT?! It really baffles me that someone can watch the entire first season and not see moral compasses flyin' all over the place! Let's compare:
"...other vampire characters, who struggled with their longing to kill while at the same time desiring to do good."
(Total spoilers ahead...) WEEVIL, anyone? I mean, this is the kid who is in a motorcycle gang that beats and strips kids and ties them to the flagpole in the first episode, and then takes the blame for his cousin's credit card theft to keep his sweet grandmother from going to jail in the SECOND EPISODE!
And then there's Logan, sincerely concerned for his sister (WILLOW!) when she starts dating a slimeball, yet orchestrates bum fights in his spare time, and hangs out with fellow 09ers who pass around date-rape drugs at parties to take advantage of their female classmates.
Okay, I think their cases actually took care of the whole character development issue, so I won't even go there.
It might just be my personal opinion, but Veronica Mars has pretty much everything that Buffy had in its second season. It sure as hell isn't Buffy, but don't give up on it. And don't give it less credit than it clearly deserves.
Veronica Mars is no Buffy. That's because it's not supposed to be. And thank God. Buffy was so perfectly executed everything it ever tried to accomplish, that any other show attempting a similar forumla would pale in comparison. The creators of Veronica, and Kristen herself, have taken things in a completely new--though slightly familiar--direction. As the back of the DVD box set says, "A little Buffy, a little Bogart" and the rest is all Veronica.
I also have to disagree with the assertion that there's no depth to Veronica or her supporting cast. While it's true she has no "higher calling," her meaning as a character was fleshed out in the first season. Lilly Kane made her what she is and gave her her purpose. That experience taught her a) that she'll never be Neptune, b) "who's her Daddy," and c) that injustice can and should be punished at any cost.
I can't say enough about Veronica's relationship with her father. It is one of the most perfect parent/child depictions on TV. Beautiful but complicated, they are the perfect pair and each defines the other.
There is a lot of depth to Veronica, and a lot to uncover about Neptune. Luckily, they're not just Buffy and Sunnydale clones.
Well for the most part I agree with the article. I can't stand Veronica though to me the show is very childesh and the charecters are far to simple. The is no real drama when I watch it I can't help but think of nancy drew. Buffy and Angel were two of the greatest shows becuase of the complexity of the charecters and the depth of the story. Veronica mars is mostly popular because it features high schoolers a woman hero and it is made for teens. Yes some adults do watch it. So for me give me a show that has depth and real emotion to it or give me nothing.
Daniel: Wow, I could not disagree more.
The average age of the VM audience is about 33, by the way. I'm not sure how anyone could conclude that a show about mass murder, date rape, child abuse, and rampant corruption in government could be considered a show "made for teens."
Also, there are many reasons why a person might prefer Buffy over VM, but "complexity of characters" can't possibly be one of those reasons, imho. Buffy was about evil vs. good, whereas there are *no* black hats or white hats in VM because everyone is gray, including Veronica herself. Every character has layers of complexity rarely found on a network TV show. I have to wonder how many episodes of VM you've seen to come to that conclusion.
I agree with most of the posters here that the two shaows are just different. Veronica Mars certainly has characters that are just as complex as Buffy. The only thing I don't like as much about VM compared to Buffy is that, so far, I see little indication that its characters are going to grow (or the opposite). In fact, it's kind of typical of film noir's cynicism that characters don't grow; that they're the same at the end as at the beginning because people don't learn from experience. And that works fine for a movie, but I think you need more than that for a tv series. So I hope we see more characters develop (as opposed to just seeing character development)
That is a very simple way to put it for Buffy. Forget the complexity in Spike being torn between his 100 plus years of being evil and suddenly having a soul to deal with it all. Forget the fact that Buffy used him so much for sex that he thought it would be ok to rape her. Forget Xander struggling with the fact that his family is dysfunctional and as much as he wants to love he feels that he will end up like them and therefore he is forced to be alone. Forget Giles being torn between duty and friendship even love, or Giles struggling with not being able to teach Buffy anymore. What about Buffy knowing that she was in a better place and was ripped right out of it being dead and suddenly back to her own personal hell, how about Buffy constantly hating her life and yet loving it at the same time because of her duty and the fact that she had to be cruel to her friends to be able to lead them. Anya struggling with being a human not use to the emotion and not able to accept death. I could go on and on.
I was beaten to the punch in saying "Veronica Mars takes place in a film noir universe" by about ten people.
But let me add this.
The classic noir novels of all time are by Raymond Chandler, and he cast his hero, Philip Marlowe, as the one incorruptible person in a corrupt world.
"Down these mean streets as man must go who is not himself mean" Chandler said in a famous article. The world may be evil, but the stories are about those few people who don't allow themselves to be dragged down by it.
So, Neptune is a pretty godless and immoral place, but Veronica and very importantly her father, are the people who don't allow themselves to be corrupted by it. There's your message if you need one.
In the season five finale of Buffy the Vampire Slayer entitled The Gift, the character Giles says to Ben (who is the human in whom Hellgod Glory is imprisoned) the following about Buffy: "She's a hero, you see. She's not like us."
Veronica is not a hero; she is a protagonist (and creator Rob Thomas actually seems to give each character a different classic noir role from week to week, so V's not always even the protagonist).
Veronica is like us. She does:
* The right things for the right reasons
* The right things for the wrong reasons
* The wrong things for the right reasons
* The wrong things for the wrong reasons
Veronica doesn't have a calling to save humanity from monsters. Instead, she is driven, because so much about humanity is monstrous. Veronica doesn't have a group of friends who are an integral part of her mission. Instead, she is a bit of an opportunist, even with those she loves.
The Veronica Mars series is missing that special-somethingness of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but I belive it is missing it by design. I'm an avid fan of Veronica Mars. It is by far my favorite show on the air, but it will never be my Buffy. Buffy will always be my favorite show. Ever. I am just thankful VM doesn't try.
It shares certain elements with BtVS and I am grateful for them:
* Smart Writing that assumes the viewer doesn't need a road map to a joke
* Intricate plotting
* A main character with something that drives her
* Pretty people (hey, who says I can't be shallow?)
That said, VM probably has at least as much in common with the BtVS spin-off, Angel, than with the Mother Show. The bad isn't as bad and the good isn't as good. It's a colorful story told in shades of grey. Veronica's motives are probably from the flip side of Angel's coin. Our favorite vampire with a soul is atoning for the evil he's done to men, where Veronica is as mad as hell about the evil men do (often, to her), but Angel is generally not the hero Buffy is, either. He is called, because he has done so much bad, whereas Buffy is called because of something inherent to her. Angel is probably better described (as the show reminded us ad nauseam during the later seasons) a champion. And he was not above doing what it took, to get things done (witness him taking the Wolfram and Hart deal in the final season), whereas Buffy seldom lost faith that she could find a Right way to do what needed to be done (witness her laying down her life to save the world).
That said, I think VM is a little less fatalistic than Angel in some ways, and does share one important element with BtVS. My friend Katie once said, "Angel says to me that there can be grace even in darkness; Buffy says to me that that you can get a damn generator and turn the lights on."
I think Veronica says, "The 09ers bought up all the generators (OF COURSE) so the poor would be kept in the dark to their evil deeds. I'm going to have to sneak a generator out of Lamb's office, and hook it up to the Kane's power supply, since the house is vacant and they *so* owe me."
Interesting piece, Donna. The temptation to wish VM into a BtVS clone is practically irresistable at times, but I think if you can find a way around wishing for it, you'll enjoy VM more. Besides, everyone knows the late, great Joan of Arcadia was the next Chosen One.
In the words of the Buffybot: 'If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
If that doesn't say it all, maybe it will put marzipan in your pie plate, Bingo.
Grr argh...
I'm not going to sit here and write an essay - I'm simply going to point out that Veronica is a teenage girl. I don't know very many teenagers who know their purpose in life - hell, I know alot of adults that don't know their purpose in life. A "higher calling" worked fine for a show like Buffy, but Slayers don't exist in real life. Real life for teenagers is trying to FIND that purpose, and that can take years. That's not bad writing, that's life.
As for not seeing character development, I have to ask - what show are you watching?
One thing I disliked about VM this season (finale not included-excellent!) was the lack of character focus. Which may be a factor in noir mystery genre - too much seemed to be introduced at the last moment, with too many characters involved. They did wrap everything up, but it seemed a bit rushed going into the last stretch - Woody/Pro Ball Player/his Daughter/Mac and Bev/ etc...
It kept me guessing, but I started to not care about revisiting some secondary character (and a new subplot) after an eight episode hiatus.
Buffy had fewer characters to deal with to get its point across. Buff- not a mystery, so no guessing game to play. Maybe that's it.
But overall, let me say VM: Darn good television.
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