52 teams to recruit? Do Puerto Rico and Washington DC get teams too?
Fraction. Land. Dodson. San Francisco. Thoughts?
I am SUPER EXCITED. As much or more as when Morrison was announced. Matt Fraction is the best mainstream comic book writer working today, there I said it.
It has potential, but I've thought that of (almost)every new plot they tease at comic-cons every year, and about 7 times out of 10 they don't realize that potential.
Paul, I really like your justification as to why you think X-Factor has been succeeding. I personally don't enjoy the book and don't think it's had a clear direction since the first issue - it's just felt like a collection of characters neither Whedon, Carey, or Brubaker wanted around, who hang together in order to react to the problems of the town they live in. I do appreciate your optimism for the series, though.
I don't think you understood The Defenders or the concept of the team.
At all.
Scott Tipton's http://comics101.com/?page=C101 should demonstrate, as you flip through the articles Archives.
Yes, the basic reason for the Defenders in real life is to have the most powerful Marvel heroes on a team, especially since these most powerful heroes have histories and personalities that preclude Avengers membership (or membership of/in any super-hero team, really).... but the in-universe (and real-life promotional phrase) notion of a "super-hero non-team" genuinely works.
I'm not gong to defend "The New Defenders" which feels a lot like "The Champions" to me, but the fact is... the Defenders have a little bit more reason to exist than the original X-Factor ever did.
Yes, the basic reason for the Defenders in real life is to have the most powerful Marvel heroes on a team, especially since these most powerful heroes have histories and personalities that preclude Avengers membership (or membership of/in any super-hero team, really).... but the in-universe (and real-life promotional phrase) notion of a "super-hero non-team" genuinely works.
The reason it genuinely worked the first time - and hasn't worked in any revamp they've tried to make since - is almost entirely due to Steve Gerber. His writing made the situation work because the whole setup was ridiculous, he knew it was ridiculous, and he excelled at making the ridiculous work.
The original Defenders concept was "let's take four loners and make a team out of them." Silly - and obviously done because there was some thought that it would make money. Gerber was the one who really made it work, and the book coasted after he left mainly on people building on the foundation he setup. The further later writers got from that foundation, the more the book became "just another team book". Eventually it became so generic that it became X-Factor. (You can see it in the run if you read them all from the first issue on through the end - the further you get from Gerber's work, the less "call backs" there are to themes that Gerber set up, the more the book feels like "generic Marvel 80s superhero team book".)
Anyway thanks for the Defenders review Paul - I didn't even realize that there was a new Defenders book out, despite once being a huge Defenders nut. I'll probably wait for the collection and see if Casey and Giffen pull off something workable or interesting out of it.
But the non-team thing doesn't work, no matter what. If the Hulk, Dr. Strange, Namor, and the Silver Surfer work together all the time, they're a team, no? That they can't stand each other doesn't change that. Heck, part of the original concept of the Fantastic Four was that two of the members couldn't get along.
“52 teams to recruit? Do Puerto Rico and Washington DC get teams too?”
I look forward to American Samoa’s team of Pele’, Krakoa, and Kiwi Black.
I thought the original Defenders raison detre was to battle global mystical/trans dimensional threats? Essentially the were guardians of the entire Earth that only came together when some force threatened the entire earth. Still somewhat of a sketchy premise, but one that provided at least internal consistency for the team up.
Strangely, given the continued reference to 52 states, it would indeed appear that nobody is looking after Washington DC or Puerto Rico - although there are apparently teams of rather bored superheroes sitting around twiddling their thumbs in Providence and Honolulu.
Except there are only 50 states over here. That's why I asked.
Hmm. Suspect I'm getting mixed up with another book of a similar name, then...
Greg Land's cover to #500 is already being shown as tracings from his past work over at Blog@newsarama.
I really don't think I'll try Uncanny with Land on it. Dodson yes, but not Land. It's just gotten to the point where I don't want to give the guy money for doing a half-assed job.
Yeah. Wake me up when he remembers how to draw.
[Which is the most annoying part - he CAN draw, since he used to do so before he discovered the lightbox.]
I very rarely go to comic book stores anymore, but when I do this year (Free Comic Book Day, natch), I'm gonna see about picking up Action Philosophers and Comic Book Comics. They sound like they're up my alley. Also, the reviews reminded me that I haven't picked up any X-Factor TPBs yet.
I was confused about the 52 states thing, too. I was starting to wonder of the Marvel Universe had two more states than the real world. I mean, they pretty much wrote the book on fictional Eastern European countries, right?
There are some fairly lengthy previews of Action Philosophers at http://www.actionphilosophers.com if you want to get the general idea of it.
Well, since Marvel have roped Captain Britain into the Fifty States Initiative, I think Paul can be forgiven for the 50/52 gaffe. 
"Marvel have roped Captain Britain into the Fifty States Initiative"
WHAT.
//Oo/\
Ok, so apparently X-FORCE #1 made it to #1 in the February sales chart, even managing to see off the Millar/Hitch FF debut? Wow, did not see that coming at all...
Why not? It's got superheroes in black who go around murdering people! It's extreme!
Matthew, if you take a look at the big group shot on the cover of The Initiative #1, you can see Captain Britain in there.
Apparently, there's an explanation for his involvement in an issue of Black Panther (because where better to explain why Britain's national hero is part of a US government superteam than a comic about an African king?), but I'm not convinced.
I nearly fell off my chair when I saw that chart. Not only is X-FORCE number one, but the Miller/Hitch FANTASTIC FOUR only got to number eight - behind THOR, NEW AVENGERS, ULTIMATES and HULK as well. I didn't see that coming at all, and it makes me wonder whether there's simply a limited amount of interest that anyone can drum up in the Fantastic Four in the twenty-first century.
Not to bring "Brand New Day Day" editorial logic into things...but I suspect the stable nuclear family, of immensely decent people, that the FF represents puts off some younger readers.
Up until the Civil War cross over I hadn't touched it quite some time, feeling like it was a bit of a silver age relic. I've enjoyed what they have done since then, but I had to get past that perceptual barrier to get back into it.
The one I really can't understand beating out the Millar debut is THOR. Is JMS's reboot really that popular? To where issue SIX is whuppin' on Millar and the new ULTIMATES and HULK series? Even as incredibly slow as it's been?
I guess all I can take away from this is that I no longer have my finger on the pulse of the Comic Buying Public at all.
"The one I really can't understand beating out the Millar debut is THOR. Is JMS's reboot really that popular?"
I was shocked by how good that series has been. Thor's confrontation with Stark, in a flooded out New Orleans, was my favorite comic moment in a long time.
You've also got to figure that where Thor wasn't being published for so long the fan base is good and rabid.
I was shocked about X-Force too - yeah, there's a couple of variants, but that alone doesn't make a title #1 - but less so about F4. Ultimates 2 dropped out of the top ten towards the end of its' run, and Millar's UF4 hovered around 70k when Marvel Zombies weren't involved.
I simply don't think Millar OR Hitch are the inherent "buy everything by them!" draw people think they are.
Perhaps DC should take a similar approach with Wonder Woman. It might actually give them enough time to figure out what they ought to do with the character in modern times.
Well, let's keep perspective here; maybe we're surprised FF wasn't in # 1, but Millar and Hitch still obviously have the star power to bring... how many readers onto F.F., a title which hasn't burned up the sales charts in how long?
And AJ Valiant proves my point. I don't see it, but he and a lot of other people apparently do.
I admit the hook is very cool: Asgard in the American Midwest.
The first six issues seemed decent, but after re-reading them I found them to be seriously lacking. Six issues in and no real action, just felt like the pure definition of decompressed storytelling.
My thing with the FF is I've never known what the hell they were about. They were a family, of people, who got powers, and went "fuck it, lets be SUPER HEROES! Why not?"
So yeah, dunno what I would be buying the FF for. Inane pseudo-science mumbo jumbo? They don't seem to stand for anything. I love the X-men cause their basic thing was about "mutant rights" which in turn has been used as social commentary for gays and blacks, and my favourite thing is that their opposite number (Magneto) wants the same thing the heroes do, and always has that "he may be right" aura around him. Even the Avengers had that "for the good of the people" thing about them. The FF were always just kinda, there... Thats why I never got into the transformers, either. "We're the good robots, we punch the bad robots"... ummm... why? So if the bad robots didn't exist you'd all be on welfare? An underlying agenda is the key, people!
(cont. from above...)
Spidey has his "With great power comes great responsibility" thing that makes him feel guilty if he didn't help out. The Punisher was all pissy about his family getting shot down (not great for an ON GOING seriers, mind you, but without having read much Punisher I'm sure a direction beyond that could have been found). I'm not being anti-FF here, just saying that beyond them just waking and going "lets be heroes", I dunno what their thing is. I've read some FF comics back when I was in EARLY double digits (I'm 25 now), seen the cartoons and whatnot, but aside from being spandex wearing super powers, what are they about? Have they a goal to achieve? Do they stand for anything? Do I want to see them make the effort to succeed? Whats at stake if they fail?
Thats my rant.
The X-Men are a gang of teenagers who got together to do stuff because they're all mutants.
That "mutant rights" crap is a giant retcon.
I liked the sixties version of the X-Men because we got these preppy elitist super-hero teens going off to save puny human military fortresses from magnetic demi-gods.
The fact that the X-Men are no more than a "just-us" sort of gang was revealed to me by watching the X-Men Evolution cartoon.
That made me real uncomfortable actually, the notion that Wheelchair Man and Shapeshifter Principal are directing gangs of teenagers to fight each other.
Of course how the black experience and gay experience really translates into "my kid may have been born with the power to kill people with his supersight" or "Make ice cream with his brain" really never made sense to me either.
White racists never fear that their kids will be born black. Unless their wife sleeps around.
Straight hateful psuedo-Christians may quake in fear about their kids' sexual bent but nothing about sex translates into the literal ability to willfully dole out mass destruction as a living weapon.
In the comics people don't fear mutants because they're "different", which was an odd thing to introduce into any cartoon. People fear mutants because the most famous mutants are demi-gods and the most outspoken of them cane re-write memories, distort the planet's very nature, or take your head off with a glance.
Magneto's such a good guy.
I know the mutant rights stuff was a retcon, it was introduced by Claremont, whose run defined what the X-men were about, which was my comparison, if the FF are about anything, I dont know. I'm happy for someone to tell me that they are.
Matt, Claremont didn't INTRODUCE the "mutant rights" angle, he merely gave it a lot more prominence than it had had before. It can be traced back to the first Sentinel storyline in the mid-sixties. (Admittedly, even Claremont doesn't treat it as a particularly big deal until 1980 or so.)
The point of the Fantastic Four is that they're explorer heroes. They go off and encounter weird and wonderful stuff, and that's (in theory) what their stories should be about. Today, they have three major problems: (i) overuse of the back catalogue of existing characters, which means they hardly ever encounter anything new; (ii) their "team who squabble" angle, which seemed revolutionary in 1961, is now unbelievably tame compared to what came later; and (iii) they're designed as static characters who don't change a great deal, which isn't the prevailing fashion.
"their "team who squabble" angle, which seemed revolutionary in 1961, is now unbelievably tame compared to what came later;"
The only time I found that angle compelling was the ALica/Ben/Johnny love triangle. The idea of Johnny (who can have any woman) stooping to steal the blind girlfriend of his hideously deformed friend was a master stroke of bastardry.
Johnny was suddenly a legitimately bad person...who Ben might just lose it a and kill. The pathos of Ben's screwjob transformation was really given some teeth.
When they retconned it with the whole "Skrull Alica" bit I found it so gutless I stopped reading the title.
The static problem is mostly a problem with the creators. The current batch (and it doesn't matter who they are) seem to always want to write the FF as Jack Kirby (and Stan Lee) left them in Fantastic Four #103, which leads to some weird feelings reading the comics now.
For one thing I remember Johnny Storm, the Human Torch, being married. Now the same character is an immature brat.
It's not even that the characters are static, it's that for every writer that brings the characters forward there is another writer that refuses to build on that and would rather work from the original stuff... which is fine but boring.
I guess it's not fine.
DC's New Gods have the same "problem".
Kinda makes you wonder then what would happen if Marvel handed the Fantastic Four to, say, Grant Morrison or Peter Chung (Aeon Flux) with a mandate to go nuts.
Wolverine's been vulnerable to guns for a bit now. The Hood stomped a mudhole in Wolverine's ass and walked it dry with a pair of normal guns, and his only power is to be invisible - a power that's long been understood to be too lame to work on its own even back when it was acceptable for Reed Richards to put Sue in her place.
Paul- Why does Jaime have a tattoo on his eye like Bishop? What happened to Layla Miller? Also have you ever seen the Matt Gardner floating hands cartoons? They're all funny.Especially the X-Men ones.
http://
www.floatinghandsstudios....icparodies.html
Taibak, they did give the Four to Morrison and let him go wild on it. It was called 1 2 3 4, and it was a bit odd.
ISTR Morrison upsetting some fans in an interview by saying he wanted to explore the sexual tensions between Johnny and Sue. Anybody have a link to that?
I'm pretty happy with Thor's success. And as stupid as it was, I can't help but think Millar teasing Thor's return and then pulling the cyber-clone nonsense worked in getting fans excited about the real thing.
Huh. I knew about 1234, but I thought that was fairly tame in comparison to some of his other works. I was thinking more along the lines of the weirdness in, say, Seaguy.
Don't suppose the low FF numbers might be because people are leery of Hitch turning anything on time and decided to wait for the trade instead?
^Plus, they probably thought Millar would actually do the whole Sue/Johnny incest thing.
Oh dear god. Whoever came up with that plot? As incest stories, go Susan and Johnny would be completely moronic... not to mention disgusting.
@Ivo
It was Morrison's idea, but I doubt he ever meant it to go beyond vague subtext (and I can't see it even as that in 1234). Probably inspired by the fact that Johnny married a woman who, in her first appearance, could put on a blonde wig and pass as his sister.
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