That's really true!
You can't compare Iraqis who fled in Saddam's times with those stories who flee now. It sometimes resembles, but in Saddam's times, you couldn't go nowehere!
I think a lot of Iraqis are leaving because their dreams of sunni domination are ended. Riverbend railed against the U.S. and Iraqi governments,lacing everything she wrote with sarcasm,right up until...things started looking up. Then she hightailed it out of Iraq. Ditto for Nabil. He scrambled to Jordan when the neighborhood he lived in started working with the U.S. against al qaida. Suz almost had everyone convinced he was going to live happily ever after in New Zealand. She's a twit.
I just read Riverbend's blog about her leaving Iraq. I swear it could be my family's story. The only difference is we did not take suitcases (only a packet of Valium) and we had no one to stay back to look after our house. We just closed the door and left. Also we knew we would never be able to go back. But the feeling she describes when she crossed the border is similar to what we felt - relief and sadness...
Mojo,
I read your response to Suz over at Nabil's and thought it was a very good point to make. I'm glad you posted it here on your mainpage. Refugees like your family leaving before the fall of Saddam don't really fit the master-narrative these days and that's why it's not mentioned very often.
*
No one can predict the future, but all who are in a position of authority vis a vis our policy about Iraq should realize that something truly seems to have changed on the ground and momentum forward is accelerating this change. It is possible that fighting will begin to wind down in most areas of the country, as the security gains of the past few months begin to produce more and more of the collateral political, economic and social gains that have been inhibited largely by terror and fear.
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/
Guess I was wrong about KSA. Heck,even an effeminate looking man can buy a condom. Without a prescription!
http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/i...6683&
Itemid=116
Jeffrey, thank you. What word or words can be used to describe the reaction to Riverbend's post, given what the Baath did to Iraq?
Iraqi Jew, when did your family leave Iraq? How about yours, gilgamesh?
Maury, be careful when you report positive news out of Iraq - you might be attacked for it like I have. Thanks for the article about sex toys in KSA! Very interesting and good nows, I think. I think that given the time, all Muslim countries will become more open and tolerant. Insha Allah!
Well, we actually didn't flee from Iraq, because we already fled, we fled from Ba'athi henchmen in the Persian Gulf at the beginning of the 80's who wanted to lure / kidnap us back to Iraq.
I'm not too worried about being attacked here IA. The half dozen or so fruitcakes who are convinced the U.S. controls every thought and deed on the planet like to hang out on Saddamite blogs. Except for burno,of course. He's on a mission.
How can bin Laden get away with dyeing his beard? The prophet Mohammed never used Grecian Formula. Off with his head!
LOL, Maury! It's true, Usama bin Ladin has committed blasphemy! I just saw the tape. It's almost like he's running for US PRESIDENT!
We fled in 1973...
I bet Usama smells like hell if he is using Grecian formula. The odor is probably masked by the shitty conditions he is living in at the moment.
We should be careful what we say about bin Laden IA. He'll be ruling the world shortly. He matches the description of the antichrist to a tee. He's even half Syrian. As nutty as that sounds....
bin Laden is half Syrian??
"We fled in 1973..."
Did you flee after the war with Israel? What was it like living in Iraq between 67 and 73? Were the Iraqi Jews especially persecuted during those years?
His mother is Syrian IA. An Allawite at that. I've often wondered if he wasn't chilling with his mom in a Syrian villa on the coast.
Did you flee after the war with Israel? What was it like living in Iraq between 67 and 73? Were the Iraqi Jews especially persecuted during those years?
Mojo where do I start? Life was hell on and off from 1950 onwards. The only respite we had was during the regime of Abdul Karim Quassim - we had our full rights restored during his time - life was good and we all opted to stay as we really loved Iraq. Little did we know... Life became particularly unbearable after the Six Day war. Basically we were all blamed for Israel's victory. Our phones were cut off that week- our businesses were closed down and our passports revoked. We were being constantly watched by men in Volkswagens - there were frequent raids and searches of our homes. There was not one Jewish family that was not affected. Hundreds were taken in for questioning. Most did not return from Qasr al Nihaya. Some bodies were dumped at the front door of their houses in front of their families (not unlike what is happening in Iraq right now). In 1969 they hanged 9 Jews whom they accused of spying for Israel in Tahrir Square where half a million people were dancing and celebrating under the hanging bodies and throwing sweets like they do in wedding celebrations. This was proudly televised live by the authorities. I can go on and on - but I see the same thing happening now in Iraq - only it is more indiscriminate ...What is happening in Iraq right now to Moslems and Christians of all denominations happened to the Jews of Iraq between 1967 and 1973... Plus ca change...
Read more about Jews from Arab countries:
http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.com/
Iraqi Mojo, thanks for sharing. I have heard many similar stories. So tragic and so sad for Iraq. They lost you and so many other great Iraqis who wanted to contribute to Iraq's greatness.
You know, my Dad frequently asks me, why do people hate Jews so much? My Dad moved to America in the 1960s. He didn't know much about Jews . . . and certainly hadn't heard anything negative about Jews before. {India is one of the few places with ancient Jewish communities that haven't been discriminated against.}
One of the first thing my Dad noticed "in America" was anti-Semitism among non-jewish Americans. It remains deep rooted in this country . . . and it shocked my Dad.
In the greater middle east (North Africa through Pakistan) anti-Jewish prejudice is much stronger than in America.
The Australian head of the UN Weapons inspectors in Iraq in the 1990s said that once Tariq Aziz dropped the act and told him straight out why Iraq wanted WMD; to kill the Jews. Tariq Aziz to his credit spoke the truth at least once.
Anti-Jewish animosity is also a big problem in France, the world’s third largest Jewish country. So anti-Semitism is hardly only a muslim problem.
I have never understood why people hate Jews so much. Do you have any thoughts regarding why?
Thank you for sharing that, Iraqi Jew. Very sad. It's sad that so many Iraqis celebrated the hanging of those Jews.
"I have never understood why people hate Jews so much. Do you have any thoughts regarding why?"
I think you were asking Iraqi Jew this question, but I will also answer. I think that Jews are hated by many Muslims because Jews everywhere are seen as representing and supporting Israel. It's interesting that France has the 3rd largest Jewish population - I did not know that. France also has a large Muslim population, and I know there is anti-Jewish feelings among Muslims in France, but do French Christians hate French Jews? I have read that many French cooperated with the Nazis after Hitler invaded France.
'I think that Jews are hated by many Muslims because Jews everywhere are seen as representing and supporting Israel..'
I have to disagree with that because that does not explain the Farhud in 1943 during which hundreds of Iraqi Jews were singled out and lynched. There was no Israel at that time. In my opinion, Jews have always been a hate object (dhimmis at best) mainly for being a minority. The most common curse expression after 'Ibn il Kalb' is 'Ibn il Yehudi'!
Good point, Iraqi Jew. There must have been anti-Jewish feelings among Iraqis before Israel came to be. Did you read that post by Baghdad Treasure about the Farhud? I wonder why the Jews were treated so badly. Weren't many of Baghdad's leaders and entrepreneurs Jewish? Were the Iraqis affected by the Nazi ideology in the early 40s?
I asked my uncle about the "anti-Jewish" feelings in the fourties in Iraq and just said: We were just assholes. (At least, an honest admission)
They harrased the jews for zionism, but actually every Iraqi knew and knows: They had nothing to do with Israel.
And of course, in '51, Nuri Said just wanted the cash of the jews in Iraq.
And one of the hanged in '67 was one of my grandfather's friends in Basra and my mother told me: He was so rich like a donkey.
Iraqi Mojo is right in stating that many Iraqi jews were an integral part of Iraqi society prior to WWII, BUT with the rise of Arabic Nationalism came the rise of Antisemitism in Iraq.
'They harrased the jews for zionism, but actually every Iraqi knew and knows: They had nothing to do with Israel.'
Gilgamesh thank you for acknowledging this. You are an exception - most Iraqis thought we were spies just because we are Jewish.
It is not unlike:
Every Moslem = Islamic terrorist
Every Iraqi Jew = Zionist spy
Mojo - been there done that. But my family left in 1970 when that bastard first came to power with just a suitcase and no idea where our next meal would come from etc. etc. I could very accuse your father of growing rich doing the Baathist's bidding from 1970 to 1982 but I would sound callous. Which is exactly how your post comes across to me.
Iraqi Jew, yes I did ask for your comment, and thanks for it.
Anti-Jewish sentiment is about a lot more than Israel. In fact, the deep fear, perhaps in some cases bordering on paranoia, that many Israelis feel is a result of anti-Jewish sentiment in the middle east and the world more generally.
Sometimes this fear results in overreactions or abuses, as in the case of Palestinians.
If Israel’s neighbors express and demonstrate genuine respect, admiration and compassion for their Israeli brothers while working diligently to improve the quality of life for Palestinians . . . it would go a “huge” way towards resolving the middle east crisis.
Part of the trigger for recent anti-Jewish sentiment is Adolf Hitler. Although he died, his ideas never did, and his anti-Jewish propaganda inspired people around the world, including in the middle east.
In the Arab world there is also a feeling that the Jews collaborated with the Ottoman Turks against them.
But there is much more to anti-Jewish sentiment and rage than just these issues and Palestine. What I am asking about are these issues.
Salam Adil
You make a good point. Some observations though. Most of Iraq’s post 2003 emigrants are sunni arabs or to a lesser degree Christians. What is happening to Iraq’s Christians is abominable. But some of the sunni arabs fleeing Iraq are Baathists or Jihadi extremists. They have held big pro-Saddam rallies and demonstrations that hurt the feelings of Iraqis who live inside Iraq. Why do they do this? Shouldn’t they stop? Sometimes some of Iraq’s recent emigrants give the impression that they sided with Saddam against their fellow Iraqis.
There are many places in Al Anbar province that are safe and welcoming to sunni arab immigrants (provided they are against Al Qaeda).
On another note, Iraq’s huge number of emigrants are a huge natural resource for Iraq. These foreign resident Iraqis can spur a lot of business and investment between Iraq and the rest of the world. Some can also move back to Iraq and bring foreign expertise and practices to Iraq.
"In the Arab world there is also a feeling that the Jews collaborated with the Ottoman Turks against them."
No offence to anand, because I know he doesn't believe this crap, but who should?
You all can google a bit, the Turks think it's justified to mass-murder Armenians because they were allied with Russia, so the Turks say.
Every holocaust needs its scapegoat for making so "innocent" people (like Turks or Arabs) kill brutaly another people (like Jews, Armenians etc.). Arabs hate Jews for cooperating with Turcs and Turcs hate Armenians for not cooperating with them, so ergo Arabs and Armenians must love each other. What a crap? BTW, I know a lot of Turks and can say: They hate jews, too.
Anand, where did you get that?
And this mindset is one of the reasons I oppose Arabic Nationalism and the dance around the Arab calf (in Cairo), because that's the behaviour it fosters! You can see in the history of Iraq: You find a lot of Jews who were Communists, but no one who was an Arabic Nationalist.
BTW, speaking about exile - stories, in order to show off 
and talk here with you, I'd like to hint that I saved her father's life for anoterh 12 years, I think: http://www.sourcewatch.org/index...Taleb_al-
Suhail
Gilgamesh, why are you referring to Taleb_al- Suhail? I don’t understand. Isn’t she just another Allawi follower?
Perhaps I should clarify. The Turkish collaborator label was used against Jews during and after WWI. I am sure that Arabs now consider Turkish occupation ancient history, and no longer hold it against Turks or Jews. I am speaking about reasons for previous anti-Jewish prejudice. [On a totally different subject, do Arabs also consider European occupation ancient history, and no longer hold it against European countries?]
Many Ottomans treated Jews respectfully during the pre-1918 period. Many Jews expressed gratitude for that.
But later on, Nazi propaganda became very influential in Turkey during WWII. Attitudes started to change.
As you know, however, Turkey remains one of Israel’s closest allies in the world. That is one reason the Israeli lobby in America is so pro-Turk.
Anand,
With all due respect, but, what the hell are you talking about? and what does that have to do with my point? I am assuming you've been to been to Jordan and Syria and done your own count of the Iraqis there so I wont bother to argue about your statistics - the point is Iraqis are being forced into exile because the total breakdown in security - regardless of sect or politics - and this is a very real human tragedy that people cannot even begin to understand just from statistics and newsbites. Riverbend gave a very strong depiction of what that means on a personal level in a way that any Iraqi can identify with - and more importantly in a way that anyone in the world can identify with. And for this she should be commended. Mojo arguing that he was starving in the 80's when her father was living it up is nothing to do with what she wrote about and strikes me as petty political point scoring at her expense.
"Mojo - been there done that. But my family left in 1970 when that bastard first came to power with just a suitcase and no idea where our next meal would come from etc. etc. I could very accuse your father of growing rich doing the Baathist's bidding from 1970 to 1982 but I would sound callous. Which is exactly how your post comes across to me." -Salam Adil
Thanks Salam - your family was smart to leave when you did. 1970?? Wow, I'd like to read more about what led your parents to believe that Saddam was such a bastard, and if you had any troubles with the regime before you left.
My father didn't start working for the regime until 1980, and we did not grow rich, but we were well off compared to other Iraqis. But you're right, I don't know if Riverbend's father grew rich, and I don't even know if he really did Saddam's bidding. Two big assumptions I should not have made.
Salam Adil, you are right. JAM and to a lesser degree Badr have ethnically cleansed many sunni arabs as well as Shia they disagree with from many parts of Baghdad, Diyala and the South. This is very tragic and condemnable.
Most of these sunni arabs had nothing to do with Saddam’s oppression of Shia, Kurds and fellow sunni arabs, in fact they hate Saddam; but they are now being persecuted inside Iraq.
The case of most of these refugees is tragic.
The subject of Riverbend and her fellow neo-Baath is another subject altogether. I apologize for seeming to conflate the two issues. There is no relationship.
Why do you like Riverbend? I have read her since 2003. And many of her writings drip with anti-Shia and anti-Kurd bigotry. She was also very negative with respect to the anti-Saddam resistance fighters. She fought against democracy tooth and nail; and was terribly unhappy with the results of Iraq’s elections. She also failed to acknowledge the deep suffering that many Iraqis suffered from Saddam.
Her cynicism and persistence in trying to depict everything that was happening in Iraq as negative, and all of Iraq’s politicians and leaders as borderline evil got on a lot of her fellow Iraqis’ nerves. Was she even on Iraq’s side?
Salam Adil, if you don't mind my asking . . . who might you consider voting for in Iraq's next elections?
Mojo - Thanks for the honest reply! My story is interesting one but not for now.. when Saddam's Baathists came to power it was very similar to Pinnochet of Chile - every one who was even suspected of being an opponent was rounded up and disappeared. The London Observer newspaper at the time wrote that the time when these Baathists came to power made Bloody Sunday look like a picnic. My family got out before that happened to us.
Anand - you seem to fall in this pattern of American thinking that the world is divided into good and evil with nothing in between. Just because you do not agree with Riverbend's politics should not blinker your opinion on everything she writes. Some of her posts made me feel proud like the one she wrote about Iraq's reconstruction after the war and some I have strongly disagreed with like her jumping to conclusions about Sabreen al-Janabi. But regardless of this I have a friend who is not into politics and hates Riverbend for being so negative. He admitted to recently "you have to say it, she was right".
I didn't vote in the last election and will not while militias are allowed to influence it.
"I didn't vote in the last election and will not while militias are allowed to influence it."
Salam, how did the militias influence the elections in Iraq? Were certain people not allowed to run?
"She also failed to acknowledge the deep suffering that many Iraqis suffered from Saddam."
That's my biggest problem with her, and that's what makes me wonder if her family did really well under Saddam. It makes me wonder what her father did exactly. In any case, Riverbend is smart and she'll do fine. She's a great writer.
Layla Anwar is also a good writer who's ba3thi.
@ anand
with all due respect, I think you're wrong about Jews in the Ottoman times. And to cut it short: a lot of Jews fled to Turkey during WWII.
I've been reading Ali al-Wardi for quite a time and it's obvious for me that in fact the Ottoma rule in the ME had devasting effects. And the Geopolitics about the Ottoma Empire are very similar to those about Saddam. In fact, the Ottoma Empire was a dead man when they conquered Iraq in 1506 (or so)!
Why I wrote about the Sheikh of Banu Tamim? Because all Iraqis here are telling the tales that led them abroad.
@ Salam
I see you live in London. Didn't you get into troubles with the Embassy at the start of the Eighties?
We lived actually also in London ( I remember this well when I was a lad) but my parents feared to be kidnapped or extradicted to Iraq.
Another thing about Riverbend - she never wrote about the targeting of Shia neighborhoods and Hussayniyas. It seems that most of her writings were about the bad things that happened to Sunni Arabs. The fact that the vast majority of the pre-2006 insurgent attacks were against Shia targets did not seem to concern many of the Iraqi bloggers, including Riverbend.
Gilgamesh - At the start of the Eighties I was permanently resident in the UK for 7 years - so no problems. But when we moved to the UK the British gave us hell - we were nearly deported back to Iraq. In those days Saddam was a "good guy" so they refused to recognise refugees from Iraq. I can imagine this attitude continued to the 80's.
That's not what I meant, although this risk was also there.
I wanted to know from henchmen from the "safaara".
Well, I remember they were active on their search for Iraqis and inquired about us like in Iraq - but in the UK!
"We’ve been flooded with election propaganda this last week. Every Iraqi channel you turn to is showing one candidate or another. Allawi, Hakim and a handful of others dominate the rest though. No one is bothering much with the other lists because quite frankly, no one hears of them that often. Allawi’s face is everywhere, as is Hakim’s turbaned head. It’s disconcerting to scan a seemingly innocent wall and have a row of identical Hakims smiling tightly down on you." -Riverbend 12/15/05
http://
riverbendblog.blogspot.co...461184191738126
Allawi's face was everywhere, and yet he didn't do that well in the elections. It's interesting she calls it 'election propaganda'. I wonder what kind of elections Riverbend would hold. Perhaps she preferred Saddam's "election" propaganda.
Apparently for Riverbend, it was not disconcerting that before 2003, the only candidate who could run in Iraqi 'elections' was the exact same dude that was seen smiling on every Iraqi channel (all three of them) since 1980.
Oh, thaaat embassy. Well, we kept a low profile and living in deepest west of London we were well out of their way. But they were all over me when I went to University in Newcastle. You, probably know what mean - being greeted in Arabic by a beefy stranger who you never met before but oddly knows your name already and that handshake where he keeps talking but never lets go. They invited to go sit at the table where 'us Iraqis' sit at lunchtime (needless to say I never took them up on their offer!). I think Newcastle University made a lot of money from Saddam in the 80's. There were several embassy goons there who were happily registered for MSc courses that they would take 4 years to pass.
I was just a lad in nursery school - so I can't judge it from my point of view.
But the main problem was always the invalid passport because to extend the validity of the passport you'd go to the embassy of nihaya !
Mojo - you've got to be in cloud cuckoo land to believe the Iraqi elections were by any stretch of the imagination free and fair. I have a nice photo from the time of the election showing two candidates of one of the smaller parties shot in the street for driving around with the wrong posters on their car. And then there was this list system. People were not voting for parties or even policies. It was all very dodgy. Its like Albania during and after communism - with communism there was no free economy after there was daylight robbery. Both were just as bad in different ways.
"I have a nice photo from the time of the election showing two candidates of one of the smaller parties shot in the street for driving around with the wrong posters on their car."
I wonder who the murdered candidates were and who the killers were in that incident. Yes, many Iraqis were attacked and killed for participating in the elections, and for voting in them. It is true that there can't be a "fair and free" election if militias are going around killing (or even threatening to kill) candidates and voters. Every Iraqi should be able to run in these elections without being threatened.
I was surprised by the success of the religious parties, but then I started looking at my own extended family - many of them are very religious, and they respect guys like Hakim. My parents are more secular, even though they pray every day and fast - my mom told me that Iraqis are calling Hakim's son "Uday Hakim" now. But after looking at the sample of Iraqis in London recently, I understand why SCIRI/Da'wa did so well. However, I think that even many hardcore Shia have learned from their mistakes - at least I hope. Many of the Iraqis in my family who were pro-religion in govt in the 80s are wiser now, and they've seen the mess that religion causes.
I don't like Maliki and his govt - I don't want to see any form of Sharia law imposed on the Iraqi people. Hopefully the results of the next elections will be different. At least this time, we don't have to wait 24 years to see a change in leadership, and we don't have to do it violently. We must demand the end of violence, and then maybe we can even tackle corruption! It is up to us Iraqis to decide what to do in the next elections. What do you think, Salam? Should we demand that clerics cannot run as candidates? That would disqualify Hakim and Sadr both. What to do with Da'wa? Do you think that democracy is possible today in Iraq?
Salam Adil,
Every free democracy in world history has never had “elections [that] were by any stretch of the imagination free and fair.” In every democracy, whether it be Brazil, India, Japan or Indonesia; the political parties with more money and press coverage have an advantage.
The real question is, are Iraq’s election’s any less free than for example America’s or Mexico’s elections.
It is true that in Iraq, some political parties have armed militias that target people they suspect are sympathetic to other political parties. This is not acceptable. Yet ultimately, voters decide who they want to vote for in the polling booths. Ultimately Iraq’s voters are accountable and responsible for who they vote for, and what the candidates they vote for do while in office.
It is called personal responsibility. And without personal responsibility, any country—Iraq included—is lost.
Iraqis have to work and sacrifice to make their country succeed. That includes voting for the candidates they believe in.
"I didn't vote in the last election and will not while militias are allowed to influence it." If Iraqis will not vote for the candidates they believe in, Iraq is lost. And there is no one to blame for it other than the Iraqi people. But most Iraqis, while taking heavy losses, haven’t given up the fight yet. 77%of all eligible voters participated in the Dec 15, 2005 elections.
What is needed is not the constant whining, cynicism and pessimism of Riverbend, or the desire to see the negative side of every issue. What is needed are strong leaders, who acknowledge the immense setbacks and challenges, but use them as a rallying cry for even greater effort and sacrifice to achieve amazing things. Winston Churchill saying “I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat..”
That is what inspires and leads to success.
Salam Adil, can you name one pessimist, such as Riverbend, who ever achieved anything in world history. Riverbend never inspires, only tries to tear down and depress. Hers is a vision of darkness and despair.
Iraq might not make it, it might fail, but as long as Iraq is able to reject the pessimism and cynicism of Riverbend, it has a chance at success.
In any case, who in this world likes someone who exports despair. People everywhere like can-do spirit, hope, optimism, vision and persistence. Throw me down a hundred times, make me fail a hundred times, but my spirit and optimism will never be affected.
Salam Adil, if you don’t vote, then the dark forces, terrorists, militias, and Iraq’s enemies will have won. Please don’t give them their victory. And please do not accept the despair and hopelessness that they are trying to impose on Iraq.
Iraq has a very difficult road ahead. Challenges that are unimaginable elsewhere in the world. Enormous sacrifices will be needed, and setbacks will encountered, for a long time to come. Iraq is going to need all its hope, optimism, spirit, and tenacity to succeed.
It seems for me that a lot of Iraqis still don't understand democracy in its complexity and amount. Democracy is not just about elections, we had them under Saddam; democracy is about human rights, but not just that; it's also about the separation of powers (that's the point about issues)!
Somehow Iraq lacks some sort of thinkers about democracy like Jefferson, Montesquieu or Locke.
If I might stretch to analogy, look at the immense suffering the prophets Mohammed, Ali, Hussein, Hassan, Jesus, Moses, John the Baptist, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, and the apostles of Jesus had to endure. Unimaginable hardship and setbacks. Things looked dark and hopeless so many times. But they never let these immense difficulties define them. And wow, look at what they achieved.
Iraqi American, how can clerics or anyone else be prevented from running for elected office? If they are prevented from running for office, how is the election free or fair?
Iraqi voters have to decide who their leaders are.
IM, I agree with you, however, that SIIC probably won't do as well in the next election.
Salam Adil,
Modern Albania is also bad. But as bad as the old Albania? Please?
The vast majority of Albanians use to live under extreme poverty under the Soviet Union.
They have new problems, but most Albanians are financially better off.
Salam Adil,
Saddam's reconstruction of Iraq after 1991 was a failure.
Some leftists claim that a half million Iraqis died because of sanctions, Saddam, and Saddam's failure at reconstruction.
I don't think Saddam did that bad . . . but he was no flaming success either.
I’ll admit, however, that Saddam was much better at promoting himself and his achievements than the current GoI or the US government.
Gilgamesh,
You are clearly very knowledgeable and I look forward to learning from you.
I agree that the Ottoman Turkish empire was no amazing success for half a millennia. Economic growth and social progress during their rule for most of their subjects was mixed at best.
Gilgamesh, please educate me on the Ottoman treatment of Jews. Did the Turks badly abuse Jews in the early 1900s? Many historians strongly disagree with each other. And I would love to learn more.
First you've to know there's the official story that encourages every young Turk to imitate the example of the "glorious Ottomans" who had an empire "larger than the USA today".
The other side of the story is that in fact the Ottoman Empire was a dead man, as once said, already in 1457. The conquest of Constantinople was already too much and the wars on the Balkan region. If you check history dates, you'll see that the Ottomans only conquered Iraq and the rest of the "arabic" ME after the Iranians made Shi'a religion a state religion. So the antigony of Sunni-Shia started there to take a political / military form.
Let's come back to the Ottoman rule: It was just divide and conquer and plunder. So you can check out that the most vulnerable in an Islamic states, the Non-Muslims or Dhimmis, can't defend themselves against any oppression or blackmailing. All people were affected, but in particular all the minorities. And afterwards the rest was robbed by Arabs or Kurds.
I'm reading some paragraphs of a travel account in Iraq and the ottoman Empire by this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Car...Carsten_Niebuhr (check it out!). This man often describes how the cowardice of Christians and Jews often provoced Muslims to rob them - if they would have only shot in the air, the Muslims would flee ( a step he had taken). As long as the "rule of law" or the "rule of law state" isn't implemented, no rule is okay!
Another example by this German traveller: in 1746 or so there was a famine in Mosul and a lot of people died. The Muslims were given food by the Ottoman authorities, but the Christians were forced to sell their children!
Another example is, if you consider this Mosul case, that in WWI - Lebanon about a fourth of the population died of hunger. We can surely assume which minorities were most hit. (That's not to say that the others didn't suffer). I've read this in a biography of Khalil Gibran.
Is the Islamic / Arabic / ME or what so ever version of humanity ? If so, طاح حظنا !
Albania was a Soviet Satellite. Not part of the USSR. Typo above ;-(
Gilgamesh, I don't disagree with you.
But many muslims (especially those further afield such as Indian muslims) remember the Ottoman Empire and Caliphate with great nostalgia as a golden age. The end of the last great muslim caliphate in 1918 was perceived by many as very tragic, even an injustice.
Osama has mentioned this many times.
And non-muslims in many parts of the world learn very quickly to agree with their muslim brothers on these types of issues. Gandhi and many of India’s non-muslim freedom fighters shared the grief of their muslim brothers at the fall of the caliphate.
Subconsciously, even I am reluctant to criticize the great Ottomans.
And then there is my bias. I kind of like Turks. (But then I kind of like a lot of countries.) It slightly hard to accept that they messed up as badly as they did.
Gilgamesh, I love to read or hear about the Ottoman Turks. I have read a good deal about them, and would love to learn as much from you about them as possible.
I don't know why Indian Muslims should feel sad about Ottoman Empire - they were never part of it! If they would have been, they wouldn't have been sad. I can hardly remember any Iraqi yearning for the Ottoman Rulers.
Second, I don't think any Armenian or Assyrian really misses the Turks. To put aside the concerns of minorities for the sake of the majority is no solution. And of course, the British rule was in fact a little bit better for Iraq, because Iraqis finally archieved in 30-40 years what the Ottomans never could do in Iraq - a functioning state!
And it's not that I don't like them but most of them are really dumb! One of those guys told me in secondary school that Mohammed was actually a Turk - a Turk in Mekka! Can you believe this? Or another told me that Imam Ali bin Abi Talib is buried alongside with Atatürk? And if you have been spit on for promoting elections in Iraq, like me, you surely must have a hard backbone not to contempt them. There are all these little 'incidents' I got with Turks in my life that made sometimes sceptic about their mindset and attitudes.
"Iraqi American, how can clerics or anyone else be prevented from running for elected office? If they are prevented from running for office, how is the election free or fair?"
Yes, good point. But maybe that has to be done if there is to be a secular govt in Iraq. If Iraqis don't want clerics smiling down on them in election "propaganda" then I take that to mean that clerics ("turbaned" ones!) must not be allowed to run in elections. I wonder what Salam would propose.
Anwyay, Maliki met with Sistani recently and apparently they agreed that putting technocrats in charge of the ministries is a possibility - I hope they take that direction! Let us encourage them
" I don't know why Indian Muslims should feel sad about Ottoman Empire"
because "they were never part of it!"
It's just like why so many non-Iraqis back Saddam.
A lot of muslims that "were never part of it" have a romantic view of the Ottoman empire.
Why do so many oppose Iraqi elections? I don't get it either.
Good thread. I enjoyed it.
All this Arabs and Muslims and Leftists feel the obligation to engage in Iraq. Why? I don't know. Ask the doc.
And Iraqis should say: Get out with your head out of Iraq. Iraq is for Iraqis only, no one whether in Riad, Kairo or Tehran has to decide who rules in Iraq.
Exile - Iraqi, you have a wrong address to meet smart Turks. Germany invested in the dumb ones a lot. Follow the money.
Hang a cross in your mosques with a figure of a crucified Iraqi on the cross of muslim-arab brotherhood. They will "betray" you. Crucifiction was a educational method favoured by Romans and Mohammed. No need to follow blindly
christian iconography. It is a muslim-Roman reality.
Switch back to Aramaic and declare yourselves Aramaic nation.
As for the leftists - they expect to win something, as they did in Iran´s revolution. Unfortunately they love "people". Try to convince them there is no people, only humans in Iraq.
Plead for not being teated as muslims and people.
@ CZ
I wouldn't go that far.
(Sorry to be so late with comment)
Jewish friendship with the Turks goes back 500 years to when the Sephardic Jews who refused to convert to Christianity were expelled from Spain. No where in Christian Europe could the Sephardic find refuge. The only place that would take the Jews was the Ottoman Empire. The Sultans came to value the Jews because they were hard working, industrious and were important in making the Ottoman Empire wealthier and hence able to build a larger army & navy. Wealthy Jews became trusted advisors to the Sultan. Some even converted to Islam in order to be appointed to senior positions in the Ottoman Empire including vizir. (Sort of like Disraeli converting to the Church of England in order to have a political career in 19th Britain.)
Although there has been outbreaks of anti-Jewish attacks in Turkey, especially in recent years, Turkey on the whole has continued to be a friend of both Israel and the Jews. It is understandable that both Israel and the Jewish-American Establishment does not want to disturb this by bringing up the Armenian Genocide but I do not believe that American Jews, if not Israel, will be able to ignore this issue no matter how much they would like to.
For everyone who has commented on this thread thank you, especailly Iraqi Jew for his heart breakening description of what happened to Iraqi Jews. Am afraid that the pattern of finding a scrapegoat to hate and persecute that started with the destruction of Iraq's Jewish Community is now being carried on in the terrorist attacks and forced exile that is being visited on Iraq's minority populations especially the Christians.
When the hatemongers have killed or driven out all those who are "different" who will they hate and persecute then? Will they turn and destroy each other?
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