I love Professor Ajami's writings. Everybody discredits him, and the ignorant Arabs even call him Persian based on his last name (racism)...but I doubt anybody could compare to his writing and mastery. The only other contemporary American thinker in Shi'i politics, is maybe Vali Nasr. You should check out his writings as well.
"The only other contemporary American thinker in Shi'i politics, is maybe Vali Nasr. You should check out his writings as well."
Yes AfghanShia. wasn't this Vali Nasr the same guy who wrote about 'the rise of Shia' and blow the whole thing out of proportion. Very smart guy - NOT.
He didn't write about the 'rise of the shia' he wrote about the shia revival. And he is absolutely right. Is he not? Iraq and Iran are under nominal Shia control. In Lebanon they dominate. In Bahrain they will gain their power one way or another, dominate the parliament. In Kuwait they're the fastest growing group, nearly 1/3 of the country now. And in Saudi they sit ontop of all the oil. In Afghanistan, they are ministers now whereas before it were impossible. Even if alternative fuel sources are found, an electricty or hydrogen fuel cells are made...it will still take atleast 100 years for all the nations to make the transition. This means alot of capital flowing to the Shia areas...
"This means alot of capital flowing to the Shia areas..."
It's sickening to see all that capital being squandered and filched by mullahs in Iran,and royals in Saudi Arabia. I really hope Iraq does better with its resources.
"In Kuwait they're the fastest growing group, nearly 1/3 of the country now."
I've always wondered what percentage of Kuwait is Shii.
But both Nasr and Ajami are right: The shia try to get the position they 'deserve'. I think by sheer numbers they deserve a better treatment like more representation or religious freedoms. And of course they deserve not to be 'insulted' constantly as "Persian, Jews, or Heretics" etc.
I never saw so a big difference in theologies between Sunni and Shia. After all, they share more in common than let's say 12 - Shia and Alevis in Turkey or other 'Ali Allah' - groups.
But, IMO, it's not only about politics, it's not about Islamic history.
"Iraq's Shia majority has returned the favor, and has come to view the Palestinians and their cause with considerable suspicion."
As a Palestinian I can tell you we dont need traitors to help us, siding whith the invaders when it suits them and backing away when it doesnt.
Secondly, if any Muslims is helping the Palestinians simply because they are Arab then dont help us. Masjid alAqsa is under attack and the palestinians are under a bloody occupation.
The funny thing is they dont see it coming. In a couple of years Iran will be bombed to the stone age and Muqtada and his men will be all exterminated.
It's sad but true.
Ah HA! So it comes out. I knew you weren't Iraqi, you evil, corrupt little dog!
Look at you, talking about traitors. You filthy scum bag...how you forget you betrayed the Ottoman (Usmani) caliphate with the British? For 1000 years you were living in peace, that you decided to betray the khilafat, however fake it was, for promises of power, domination, and money. And now look at you, dominated by Jews, and talking like a broke, prostituting, fortune-telling sage about a country you have no relation to, about whats to come for a people you have no experience with?
Forget you!
"Iran will be bombed to the stone age"
Nuclear facilities will be taken out,but they'll still be in the bronze age.
Afghan Shia your full of shit! You know nothing about me.
Im half Iraqi you moron.
oops! did you ever consider that or is it too complex?
Second of all the Uthmani empire was currupted by the end of the 19th century, and it was secular and opressing the Muslims instead of helping them.
I repeat, if ANYONE is helping the palestinians because they are Arab then please dont help. If someone is helping the palestinians because they feel it is their moral duty and to protect Islams third holiest site, then by all means you are welcome.
Maury | 01.31.07 - 2:07 pm | #
Maury I disagree. After their sites are taken out they will have the same fate as Iraq. They might sanction them for a while until they decide to bomb them to the stoen age.
Afghan Shia are you in denial?
Are you saying Iran wont be targeted after all this media propaganda against it and all the signs are clear?
Do you want to bet on it?
I'd LOVE to be the oen that says "I told you so" and laugh at your face when the time comes.
Your in denial. Its time to face reality.
AfghanShia | 01.31.07 - 10:01 am | #
I didn't mean Shias should not get their rightful position. I said he was blowing it out of proportion (propaganda)- which means provoking Sunni countries like Egypt ( I bet if you were a Sunni you'd have a triple heart attack). Doesn't this put pressure on the Shia minorities in these countries? Common sense.
Iraqi American | Homepage | 01.31.07 - 10:58 am | #
If you read the 'shia revival' by Vali Nasr, you will know. He listed all the countries with their corresponding Shia %. I personally find all this statistics distasteful. Why should it matter?
Foad Ajami: I had heard he is an orientalist ('native informant') and a neocon, so I never read anything by him. But I read this since you posted it. He does make some good points, but he is still a hypocrite. Why American Iraq? He has a problem with a Palestinian Iraq, but not with an American Iraq!! Why not just Iraqi Iraq? He has a problem with that too? Hypocrite.
exile - iraqi / gilgamesh X | 01.31.07 - 12:06 pm | #
"12 - Shia and Alevis in Turkey or other 'Ali Allah' - groups."
What are these?!
"But, IMO, it's not only about politics, it's not about Islamic history."
It is about class difference - IMO.
So 'persian' and 'jew' are derogatory terms in Arabic. What about 'fire-worshipper'? Some guy called me a fire-worshipper today when I told him where I come from. Is that a pejorative word?
.
Iraqi American,
I like the cartoon of Iraq as a textile, being made from three different fibres. It reminded me of what my uncle told me about Iran: he said Iran is analogous to a Turkaman rug, made from natural fibres with organic colours (each colour representing one group). Turkaman rug is also very strong and you cannot cut or destroy it easily.
AfghanShia | 01.31.07 - 1:51 pm | #
"For 1000 years you were living in peace, that you decided to betray the khilafat, however fake it was, for promises of power, domination, and money."
Are you in the right time zone, neighbour?! How come you have a computer?
In my Irani accent: baleh, khaahar. Imruuz asr e jadeed ast, wa maa momeneen bayad beedaar baasheem.
"12 - Shia and Alevis in Turkey or other 'Ali Allah' - groups."
These are groups like this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alevi
"It is about class difference - IMO."
That's too much Marx & Trotzky in it. IMO, a first hint in the difference is about Patriarchy vs. Matriarchy. And, it's about differences of the Antique ME during its 'Islamization'
"So 'persian' and 'jew' are derogatory terms in Arabic. What about 'fire-worshipper'? Some guy called me a fire-worshipper today when I told him where I come from. Is that a pejorative word?"
Of course, fire-worshiper = Zorastrian = Non - Muslim = Kafir ! That's the formula, like Persian = Ex-fire-worshipper = Still fire-worshipper = Non - Muslim = Kafir.
Ask CSS she knows best about prejudices.
Before I forget it:
Saddam used to call the Persians during the war very often "fire-worshiper" or "magus" (magican).
AfghanShia | 01.31.07 - 5:34 pm | #
Oh! So you call me 'khahar' now! How sweet. Can't I be your 'aabji' instead?
Baradare momene basiji, tou beedar baash, man miram lala. Zzzzzzzzz...
exile - iraqi / gilgamesh X | 01.31.07 - 5:45 pm | #
"Persian = Ex-fire-worshipper = Still fire-worshipper = Non - Muslim = Kafir."
I see. I guessed it from his face that he wasn't giving me any compliment. What a jerk.
"And, it's about differences of the Antique ME during its 'Islamization'"
Too far back in my view. I don't know what you mean by 'differences of Antique ME' , but it was probably too long ago to have a effect on what is happening now. How can what people don't know about have an effect on their perception (it doesn't go into their genes and then inherited). Class is important because in ME societies (or others) it really defines how different groups interact with each other.
"Ask CSS she knows best about prejudices."
And you know nothing!? Impressive!
"Saddam used to call the Persians during the war very often "fire-worshiper" or "magus" (magican)."
So, is it an exclusively Baathi term? That guy didn't look like an Iraqi - more like north African.
"Too far back in my view. I don't know what you mean by 'differences of Antique ME' , but it was probably too long ago to have a effect on what is happening now. How can what people don't know about have an effect on their perception (it doesn't go into their genes and then inherited). Class is important because in ME societies (or others) it really defines how different groups interact with each other. "
too far back ? Well, 1400 years later people still smash their heads to each other because of what happened on the plains of Kerbela.
And maybe the perception is not known by the today's followers but it might have been in the past and so the effects are still transported in the contents of this belief. Let me give you some example:
1) First, the concentration on Fatima, we can see it in the Hussein story, we can see it in the name of Abd-el Zahra and we can go to the Fatimids who never called themselves "Fatimids" or the hand of Fatima which is common among Sunni Maghreb or Jews.
2) Let's take the sword and blood thing of Shia. We can find it among Spanish crucification guilds, we can find it among Russian sects of the last century (If you've read Trotzky by Isaac Deutscher, it is mentioned that Trotzky was sent to exile the first time with a group of skorpz (or so) who were a groub that hurt themselves) We can find this pattern even in Antique ME, there were groups in Syria castrating themselves. (Not to speak from the Aztecs of Mayas, who even made worse things to themselves.) Google for a Roman empereor called Heliogibal or so.
3) I've last time seen in al-Forat TV an old woman 'singing' or reciting songs for Hussein which were called "Gallaaouiyat". These "Gallaaouyat" existed in the time before Islam, they even existed in the Sumerian times and were sung by special singers. Theses songs are in Sumerian "Gallu" and dealt about Tammuz. So let's just continue to think: If the song for Hussein existed a long time before Hussein, how is this possible ? Who was first: the egg or the chicken ? And I mean, IMO, the stone plates of Sumer carry a lot of more credit after all they were buried for several thousand years and were unknown to a lot of people even in the Ancient times (the Bible doesn't mention Sumer). And let's continue to think: If Hussein is replaced by Tammuz, you can go on and replace Fatima by Ishtar and voilą both stories resemble much to each other, just changed names. This would also explain such a curious name like Abd el-Zahra because Ishtar was also connected in Pre-Islamic times with the Venus.
4) as mentioned in the Alevite wikipedia article, these groups took care of a lot of Pre-Islamic heritages and embodied them in their 'Islam'. If we, Z, consider both the mentioned things I wrote above, we maybe can say the same but maybe the religions of Old Iraq were much more closer to each other or referred to a same religious frame. And we shouldn't forget that the Iraqi shia are one of
4) as mentioned in the Alevite wikipedia article, these groups took care of a lot of Pre-Islamic heritages and embodied them in their 'Islam'. If we, Z, consider both the mentioned things I wrote above, we maybe can say the same but maybe the religions of Old Iraq were much more closer to each other or referred to a same religious frame. And we shouldn't forget that the Iraqi shia are one of the oldest people islamized. So it may be that there were more 'pre-islamic' traditions which were abolished, abandonned or so.
Go to talisman.blogspot.com where the author also writes a few lines about the Babylonian - Ashura Connection.
And even Ashura is not an Arabic name. It's Aramaic, and only by that fact, it is proven that this name is pre-islamic.
And you know nothing!? Impressive!
I can give you prejudices towards Arabs, so called shu'ubi - prejudices but I'm not an expert in Ba'athi vocabulary. That talk is from Ba'athis and sorry, Z, Saddam looks very much like an Iraqi.
And Z,
Class was never a thing in the ME. The notion of Class is commonly unknown.
In my eyes, the Middle East is based on "milliyet" on religious groups. These groups shape every of its individual and the social class is a question in these groups, but it's not an all-inclusive issues which crosses borders like independency. And if it's limited to special groups, it somehow turns into a 'religious group' issue.
Z, I have been extremely nice and courteous to you and you had my respect by default.
AfghanShia | 01.31.07 - 9:14 pm | #
"Z, I have been extremely nice and courteous to you and you had my respect by default."
Firstly I don't quite understand what you mean by 'by default'.
Secondly, I don't want you to be nice to me just because I am a Shia or Iraani or both. I prefer it if you respect me for myself.
And lastly, I don't know what made you say this, but if you are referring to that farsi sentence, I didn't say anything rude or disrespectful to you. Maybe I used some Iraani slang you misunderstood - or are you offended because I called you basiji brother?
exile - iraqi / gilgamesh X | 01.31.07 - 7:20 pm | #
"And maybe the perception is not known by the today's followers but it might have been in the past and so the effects are still transported in the contents of this belief."
I agree Gilgamesh, you are right. I guess this kind of things are also transferred to the next generations just like we inherit genes from our parents. In this case only it is not stored (written) in the DNA, it is transferred through tradition. And just like the 'selfish gene' it does everything to survive, even if it means changing alot and adapting - and humans are kind of a tool:
An itinerant selfish gene
Said 'Bodies a-plenty I've seen.
You think you're so clever
But I'll live for ever.
You're just a survival machine.'
A good analogy in my view.
"If Hussein is replaced by Tammuz, you can go on and replace Fatima by Ishtar and voilą both stories resemble much to each other"
You know if Iranians are forced to convert to the Zorastrian religion - I am sure Ali, Hosseyn and Karbala would not be forgotten. Except they will get a Zoroastrian names.
"And we shouldn't forget that the Iraqi shia are one of the oldest people islamized. So it may be that there were more 'pre-islamic' traditions which were abolished, abandonned or so."
In my view, when islam was spread, it was always modified so that it can be understandable and applicable by the new converts. This is why there is no such a thing as 'pure' Islam. Islam in Idonesia for example is very Indonesian. Just like when an English word enters the farsi language, it loses its Englishness and becomes modified by rules of Frasi language. But ofcourse as you say some things were abolished by force or forgotten.
"I can give you prejudices towards Arabs"
Yes you are vey prejudiced against Arabs.
"Class was never a thing in the ME. The notion of Class is commonly unknown."
I don't know about ME in general, but in Iran class plays an important role. Maybe people don't recognise it as such - but it is so obviouse. Even political groups reflect class differences. What do you think is the real difference between Ahmadinezhad and Khatami (or their supporters)?
"In my eyes, the Middle East is based on "milliyet" on religious groups."
I still think separate independent nation states are possible. And these various 'religions' can be a kind of glue between these states. Iran is a good example, although I agree it is not perfect. I personnaly had a problem in understanding why Afghanistan and Turkamanistan are not 'Iran' or that I cannot consider them as my own, or vice versa. Iranian Azaris also think Azarbayjan belongs to them and to Iran. So I think I know what you mean by "meilliyet".
BTW - I guess you teach history or study history, right? Don't want to be nosy, but just wondering. And thanks.
"Yes you are vey prejudiced against Arabs. "
I'm not prejudiced against the 'Arabs' because they're 'Arabs'. I just think that the concept of being an Arab, the 'arab' identity is all a big lie and a hoax. (Once I discussed with my father whether it's possible if all the Arabs believe to a lie and I referred to Dostojewski and Brothers Karamasov).
I don't have anything against the Bedouins or the inhabitants of Arabia, the propoerty today of the Saudis. But I must ask myself why so many people want to be 'Arabic' when it's obvious they aren't. Let's take Egypt: for my parents Egypt is still not an Arabic country (even Taha hussein and Nagib Mahfuz didn't see things like that) because in their childhood this notion of Egyps as an Arabic country didn't exist.
I don't want to prescribe one's identity but the mess today forces to doubt everything even the most holiest things. (And the cruelty of Saddam can be attributed to the fact that Iraqi is more 'Iraqi' than 'Arabic'.)
Milliyet means a religious - social entity. If class is such a question in Iraqn, why the Tudeh party or Communists in general are so weak in Iran ?
exile - iraqi / gilgamesh X | 02.01.07 - 1:50 pm | #
"I'm not prejudiced against the 'Arabs' because they're 'Arabs'. I just think that the concept of being an Arab, the 'arab' identity is all a big lie and a hoax."
But isn't almost all identity. I consider most of these countries you mentioned like Egypt as not 'Arab' buy just Egyption - at least first Egyptio then Arab. But 'Arab' is just an idea. It helped to unite countries together against imperialism (and don't laugh at me when I use the word imperialism). That is it. If it was more than that why are the Palestinians still Palestenian; not altogether absorbed in other 'arab' countries (wouldn't Israel just love that?). Don't you think now ME would have been more peaceful if Iran too was considered to be an 'arab' country - and not an outsider in the ME? Why do you have a problem with 'hoax'? You are such a purist.
"Milliyet means a religious - social entity. If class is such a question in Iraqn, why the Tudeh party or Communists in general are so weak in Iran ?"
First of all there would have been no revolution in Iran if it wasn't for Ali Shari'ati and Khomeyni. My father was a communist, but at some stage he supported the left-islamists because he knew how much communists were connected to the Soviet. He didn't want Iran to become part of the Russian empire. As for people they disliked the Tudeh because they were known to be 'god-less' and agents of Soviet (and Iranians dont trust Russia in general). But Islamists had also absorbed alot of the communist and lefty ideology and basically islamised it - in the case of Shia Islam that is not too hard. Why was the word "mostaz'afan" used so much at that time and still today by Ahmadinezhad types? They refer to the working class and poor people. There are probably other reasons too - but these are what I gathered. Communism could never really give momentum to the the deeply religious masses.
(Once I discussed with my father whether it's possible if all the Arabs believe to a lie and I referred to Dostojewski and Brothers Karamasov).
Which part of it exactly?
"It helped to unite countries together against imperialism (and don't laugh at me when I use the word imperialism). That is it. "
No, Iraq was in the Thirties indepedent. And other countries may have been occupied but still had a formal independence like Egypt. And this Idea is just another imperialism replacing another imperialism.
"Don't you think now ME would have been more peaceful if Iran too was considered to be an 'arab' country - and not an outsider in the ME? "
No, why Iran has to be an 'arab' country to be accepted by other countries in the ME ? Do you really think that being 'Arab' is the ticket to enter the Arab world ? Then go and ask Sudan or Somalia which are considered as 'Blacks' with all the implications. Why do you have to be an Arab in order not to be an outsider ?
And why I'm a purist ? I tell you that Saddam killed so many Iraqis because Iraq was not applicable to that Idea, Arab nationalism. And I'm no purist, I just check the Iraqi reality which consists of more than one Arab nation and which started not by the Arabs arrival in Iraq. Why can't people just be the fruits of their countries ? Instead everybody refers to the Arabs, the First muslims, in order to get accepted ?
Maybe I'm in your eyes a purist (whatever that means) but you would be a Persian Saddam could have fun with. (If you ask me why, I can give you a striking text to it.)
And all about the Tudeh, well, I've no idea about Communism in Iran. Communists are in Iraq either highly regarded or at least respected (of course, not by Baathists). They are much linked to Qassim which explains the respect towards them. And Qassim is the good extreme in Iraqi history.
The passage of Brothers Karamassov is the part with The Grand Inquisitor.
"And this Idea is just another imperialism replacing another imperialism."
OK - you are right - but the Idea is just a solution, a kind of defense. Better replace imperialism with a less problematic and more indigenous imperialism and from there people can take over.
"No, why Iran has to be an 'arab' country to be accepted by other countries in the ME ? ... Why do you have to be an Arab in order not to be an outsider ?"
Well Iran has to belong to some regional family. And if it was 'arab', Saudi Arabia and Jordan wouldn't be able to frighten their people by "Safavids are coming" slogan.
"And why I'm a purist ? I tell you that Saddam killed so many Iraqis because Iraq was not applicable to that Idea, Arab nationalism."
I didn't mean 'purist' in that way. Maybe I meant to say idealist. You are more senstive with words. I was thinking of your "hoax and a lie". Afterall everything IS a lie. And didn't Saddam kill because he was a merciless tyrant? Do you think he killed for the Idae of Arab Nationalism?
"...but you would be a Persian Saddam could have fun with."
Thaks a lot Gilgamesh. I guess I should take this as a compliment ... having fun with a mass murderer Saddam. I don't think I would have fun with a mass murderer. I still have my principles. And do give me that "striking text" - I am curious (unless you are referring to those MEK wierdo's).
Z I will show you the striking text about how Arabs nationalist see Persians and Arab traitors
but I'm busy these days and hope to post my response at the week-end.
Commenting by HaloScan
