We might be stuck until democracy comes to the neighborhood. Saudi's are violently opposed to democracy,and don't mind blowing up anyone who disagrees. Iran won't give up ambitions of a new Persian empire. Syria has all kinds of dirty tricks up its sleeve. I'm afraid we're stuck for the foreseeable future. A lot less soldiers maybe,but we'll be there awhile.
Talisman gate linked to this video on Al Hurra featuring the Iraqi Army battling a group of ragtag heretics. He gave a rather scathing critique. The last minute or so is particulary disturbing. It's hard to imagine these guys battling a real threat.
http://www.radiosawa.com/arabic_...=2010550&
cid=24
IM, Did you hear,about 3:35 into Lawrence Wright's interview, where he talked about AQ admitting that 80% of their membership had been wiped out,in some 2001 battle in Tora Bora,
That AQ was essentially dead, the war on terror was over and it was the invasion of Iraq that breathed life back in to AQ and resurrected it.Fanfuckingtastic America, way to go!
I hope the folks here will listen to all of Yanar Mohammed's interview. The freaks we are allying ourselves with treat women worse than they were during Saddam's period by far.(We've done the same thing to women and their rights in Afghanistan as well).UNFORGIVABLE.
American rule of Iraq is like the four horses of the apocalypse.
WOMEN IN AFGHANISTAN:
The 'Good War' Is a Bad War
by John Pilger
"To me, I confess, [countries] are pieces on a chessboard upon which is being played out a game for dominion of the world."
Lord Curzon, viceroy of India, speaking about Afghanistan, 1898
I had suggested to Marina that we meet in the safety of the Intercontinental Hotel, where foreigners stay in Kabul, but she said no. She had been there once and government agents, suspecting she was Rawa, had arrested her. We met instead at a safe house, reached through contours of bombed rubble that was once streets, where people live like earthquake victims awaiting rescue.
Rawa is the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan, which since 1977 has alerted the world to the suffering of women and girls in that country. There is no organization on earth like it. It is the high bar of feminism, home of the bravest of the brave. Year after year, Rawa agents have traveled secretly through Afghanistan, teaching at clandestine girls' schools, ministering to isolated and brutalized women, recording outrages on cameras concealed beneath their burqas. They were the Taliban regime's implacable foes when the word Taliban was barely heard in the west: when the Clinton administration was secretly courting the mullahs so that the oil company UNOCAL could build a pipeline across Afghanistan from the Caspian.
Indeed, Rawa's understanding of the designs and hypocrisy of western governments informs a truth about Afghanistan excluded from news, now reduced to a drama of British squaddies besieged by a demonic enemy in a "good war." When we met, Marina was veiled to conceal her identity. Marina is her nom de guerre. She said: "We, the women of Afghanistan, only became a cause in the west following 11 September 2001, when the Taliban suddenly became the official enemy of America. Yes, they persecuted women, but they were not unique, and we have resented the silence in the west over the atrocious nature of the western-backed warlords, who are no different. They rape and kidnap and terrorize, yet they hold seats in [Hamid] Karzai's government. In some ways, we were more secure under the Taliban. You could cross Afghanistan by road and feel secure. Now, you take your life into your hands."
The reason the United States gave for invading Afghanistan in October 2001 was "to destroy the infrastructure of al-Qaeda, the perpetrators of 9/11." The women of Rawa say this is false. In a rare statement on 4 December that went unreported in Britain, they said: "By experience, [we have found] that the US does not want to defeat the Taliban and al-Qaeda, because then they will have no excuse to stay in Afghanistan and work towards the realization of their economic, political and strategic interests in the region."
The truth about the "good war" is to be found in compelling evidence that the 2001 invasion, widely supported in the west as a justifiable response to the 11 September
The dumbest thing the Taliban did was not turning bin Laden over to the U.S. after 9/11. They made the offer,and then changed their mind.
Datta,you're pretty far gone my man. Too much Bruno will do that.
Am I the only one bothered with the way the Iraqi Army treated that dying man in the video? Never mind what he or they believed. That was just a disgusting way for human beings to act. And we trained the bastards.
That was bad. I'm not ready to condemn the whole IA for it, though, any more than I'd condemn the whole MNF for occaisional bad behavior by a few of them.
The rest of the video (the fight) doesn't seem as bad as Kazimi says, but I don't know what was being said or what the context was. I think in the news they're saying there was a big fight with that cult, something like 50 KIA.
_
Here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22728491/
_
According to the guy at Talisman,they were doing a Sadrist chant while stepping on his face Rhus. Reminded him of the behavior at Saddam's hanging. I'm sure it doesn't reflect on the whole Iraqi Army. But,it does show Muqwaq is firmly in control of Basra.
Maury, the article doesn't say who the Iraqi forces were, it just says "Iraqi Security forces". In any case, I don't believe the US has done any training of units in the Basrah area.
Maury what did you object to?Lawrence Wright's comment, Yanar Mohammed'd comment?The RAWA representative's comment? Did you even listen to them?My comment at the atrocity they describe, or my condemnation of Washington's endless nightmare fiascos? do you think they are wrong and that you know more than the women that are over there? Do you support the nightmare on women that has occured? Do you deny what Wright said about AQ?
You just don't want to see the hideous truth that our wars have created.
Link to the RAWA story:
http://www.antiwar.com/pilger/?
a...articleid=12182
Try educating yourself with unembedded media.
Craig,chaeck out the commentary at Talisman Gate. Maybe IA can weigh in as well. It's hard to know who trained which army units,because they can be assigned all over the place.
"Any US or Iraqi military officer watching this footage should be ashamed. Soldiers panic under fire and the worst in many people comes out. The Iraqi Army carried the day against a small, misguided and violent cult, but the damage that this footage has done to Army's reputation, which had been gradually improving, will be hard to undo quickly."
http://talismangate.blogspot.com/
"Maury what did you object to?"
I object to the following bullshit,which you obviously bought into Datta. Like I said,you're pretty far gone.
"The reason the United States gave for invading Afghanistan in October 2001 was "to destroy the infrastructure of al-Qaeda, the perpetrators of 9/11." The women of Rawa say this is false."
The women of Rawa have a screw loose.
Maury, this is from his blog:
Al-Hurra TV has incredible footage from the fighting today in Basra that pitted Iraqi security forces against a weird 'new-age' Shia cult. I found some of the scenes very disturbing.
ISF. That's Iraqi police. They are local boys. If anyone trained them (and it's very possible nobody in the MNF did) it was the British, not the Americans.
And people (including me) have been complaining about the ISF around Basra since before they murdered Steven Vincent. I don't know who recruits, trains or commands the police in Basra (maybe Mojo does) but it's not Americans, and it never has been. I personally am disgusted with some of the things that have been going on in Basra, and it was the murder of Steven Vincent by ISF that convinced me the situation in Iraq was hopeless. I've only recently started to change my mind about that, so I'm the last person who should be trying to comment objectively on this one.
I hope you're right Craig. It's true everybody knew the IP's in Basra were infiltrated by Sadrists. If something like that happened in the states,heads would fly. It'll be interesting to see whether Maliki's government does anything in the days ahead. I won't hold my breath.
That MSN article says they took over a police station and/or more. Also that MNF was asked to provide air cover. So it may have been a bigger attack than Kazimi implies. This doesn't excuse their treatment of the wounded guy, but may go to the other criticisms he had.
_
Maury, the article doesn't say who the Iraqi forces were, it just says "Iraqi Security forces". In any case, I don't believe the US has done any training of units in the Basrah area.
Craig | Homepage | 01.18.08 - 8:27 pm | #
Incorrect. Most of the IA there is US trained. Will explain later.
Maury, be polite to Datta. He loves Iraqis as much as we do. Our differences are tactical, not strategic.
Datta is not "gone."
Maury, I have met woman from RAWA. They mean well. Please disagree courteously.
I'll join in later.
They don't mean well to Americans anand. Not with garbage like that. What the heck do they think we wanted with Afghanistan if not Al Qaida? Cheap opium maybe? The country has nothing else of significance. It's not strategic in any way,shape,or form. Anyone that believes we want or need a colony in Afghanistan is way far gone. It's a money pit,not the other way around. That goes double for Iraq,although Iraq at least is strategically important.
The Iraqi traitors on this blog do not represent anyone exept themselves. I just got back from Iraq, and the views expressed on this blog are clearly the views of a select few. The American officials might appreciate your propoganda efforts, but the Iraqi people would be disgusted if they ever heard of you. The good Americans, which is most of them, would also appreciate a little bit of truth.
Arab Advocate, please describe your trip to Iraq in some detail.
Were you unexpectedly impressed by how high quality the ISF were? Can you describe your impressions?
My trip was a personal family trip. No, I do not care to share it with you other than to tell you the views expressed on this blog are anathema to the overwhelming majority of Iraqis. They would not even recognize what is being said.
Which of my views in particular would most Iraqis disagree with?
I may have a minority view among Iraqis on some topics. Why does this make me a traitor?
Just check his blog IA. His views are perfectly aligned with the "Arab Street". He obviously pays close attention to his state media. Maybe you should spend more time being brainwashed,and less time thinking for yourself.
Iraq must be a failed state in order to hurt the U.S. Everyone must starve,be put on world welfare and have their laundry picked over by neighboring regimes. It's okay though. Arabs in America will solve the intractable problem several generations from now,after the prestige of the U.S. and its Zionist puppet has been lowered sufficiently.
Now,be a good Arab and get with the program.
Arab Advocate,
I smell a phony. There's a bridge in Baghdad that connects two very different neighborhoods. Can you name it?
*
Wow. Angry Arab has a son?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...e#StartComments
What's the deal with this Jund al-Samaa,or "Soldiers of Heaven" cult down in Basra. They pulled something similar near Najaf last year during Ashoura festivities. Several hundred were killed,and another 400 got 15 years to life in prison. 10 got the death penalty. The leader was supposedly killed last year.
IA,is there something in Shia ideology that predicts the return of the Mahdi during Ashoura? They claim that's the aim of the group.
@ Jarab Advocate
After watching your website, I don't buy it that you've ever been in Iraq. Otherwise, with your Palestine - loving attitudes, you would have a lot of trouble in Iraq, except for Baathist circles. To cut it short: The normal Iraqi would cut your Faleesteezee ass in pieces, not because of you but because of public Palestinian attitutes towards Iraq.
P.S.: But our beloved Iraq out of your "Jarab World Map". Iraq is as Arabic as Ireland is English.
Yeah I doubt this "Arab Advocate" has been to Iraq. Please tell us more about your trip, Arab Advocate.
Maury, fundamentalist Shia believe that the Mahdi (the 12th Imam or the Hidden Imam) will return. According to an Iranian interviewed by Christiane Amanpour in God's Muslim Warriors, the Mahdi will convert everybody to Islam, and if there are problems, Jesus will be sent to mediate! I found the interview to be quite amusing. Apparently this Soldiers of Heaven group wants to hasten the return of the Mahdi, and evidently they believe that causing mayhem and death during Ashoura will usher in a new era during which the Hidden Imam will re-appear and save the world. I don’t understand how people can be so impressionable. More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muh...hammad_al-
Mahdi
A lot of cults popped up in the U.S. during the 70's. Probably had to do with all the tumult society was going through. Equal rights,Vietnam,Watergate,stagflation to name a few. This section of the Wiki link is a bit spooky.
"During the last times, my people will be afflicted with terrible and unprecedented calamities and misfortunes from their rulers"
Sounds like Iraq,right?
"Shi'as believe that Muhammad al-Mahdi will reappear when the world has fallen into chaos and civil war emerges between the human race for no reason."
That REALLY sounds like Iraq.
Maury,
on AAfghanistan:
"A Washington Post headline today "Afghan Poppies Proliferate" is illustrative. We had supported the Taliban for six years before we put our UNOCAL friend Hamid Karzai in Kabul in late 2001. But it took almost six years of our "Clinton-Bush Taliban- phase" before the Taliban made a serious dent in the un-Islamic production of opium. We paid a $43 million bonus for this success in 2001 – a token substitution of Afghanistan government income from the poppy. By that time, in the summer of 2001, the new administration’s impatience with Talibanis over lack of progress on the trans-Afghanistan gas pipeline deal and poor security along the planned pipeline route had become unbearable – enter Karzai. Of course, one of Karzai’s first acts was to ban the opium trade. And with the United States supporting him, it sure happened! Last year (Karzai year 1) made Afghanistan again the largest opium exporter in the world, and this year (Karzai year 2) is going to bring in a bumper crop! An analysis of the drug-terror relationship and the U.S. interest makes good reading. Bush may wonder why other countries and so many Americans doubt his words, even when he repeats them forcibly, with e-nun-ci-a-tion and weighty pauses, but it is no mystery.
There are two ways you can look at this – OK, maybe three. One is that we intended well, but this explosion of opium production just as it was coming under control is just an unintended consequence. Sh*&t happens, so to speak. The other is that we intended well, and this is an intended consequence. It certainly keeps the drug enforcement agencies in business, supports the massive military spending associated with drug eradication, and it doesn’t affect loyal Republican voters in any way except towards more big-government – more need for straightening out the world and increasing domestic law and order in the face of all these dangerous illegal drugs being forced on innocent unsuspecting Americans by powerful third world alien forces. A third perspective is that the Bush team is simply not interested in this problem. By early 2002, Karzai formally committed to revive the trans-Afghanistan pipeline project, and has since spearheaded the parliamentary and business actions in Afghanistan required to make it come together. With the U.S. military ensuring pipeline construction security -- problem solved! The prohibited opium industry in Afghanistan brings lots of cash, a drug mafia’s disruption of "democracy," twists civil society, makes legitimate farming and industry unprofitable, and breaks down communities and families. But who really cares? It’s not our country we’re talking about! We may be the undeniably fine Christians on this chessboard, but we’re certainly not "responsible!"
In the long run, Iraq and Afghanistan are both about security for energy flows and security for Israel, by occupation of important oil fields and pipelines and via military forces emplaced strategically near
Full article
http://www.lewrockwell.com/
kwiat...atkowski26.html
Datta,UNOCAL pulled out of that pipeline project years ago. Tweak the conspiracy theory and try again.
Mojo,
I just finished listening to all of the NPR interviews. Thanks again for making it so easy to click on them. I took notes on each discussion and there was a wide range of opinions expressed between Terry Gross and her guests.
Lt. Col John Nagl argued that we if we want success in Iraq we will have to commit to ten to twenty more years there. The activist Yanar Mohammed, an Iraqi-Canadian, was at the other end of the spectrum. She said that the Americans should leave RIGHT NOW and let the "natural dynamics" of bloodletting between Iraqi groups proceed. Peter Galbraith's position is very close to Yanar's. The others generally advocated a phased withdrawal in the next few years.
*
Jeffrey, I've agreed with all of those opinions at one point or another over the last few years. I'm not really sure what i think would be best, anymore. You may or may not know this, but I've wanted US forces out of Iraq for a couple years now. I changed my mind (kind of) about a month ago.
I guess it's interesting to hear all those opinions from "experts", whether they really are or not, but it still doesn't seem very clear to me what the best way forward is.
Craig,
Jeffrey, I've agreed with all of those opinions at one point or another over the last few years.
I know exactly how you feel. 2006 and the first half of 2007 was a brutal period of time.
There are still so many variables and contingencies. I don't have a definitive answer either. Most people seem to agree, however, that pulling out quickly in the next couple months would destabilize Iraq (although, like you, I think, there have been times when I was so exasperated with everything going on there that simply pulling all the Americans out of Iraq as soon as possible seemed like the best course of action).
*
I was ready for a troop withdrawal last April. 93% of Sunni Arabs supported killing our troops,and I wanted them to enjoy a few months without those troops around....LOL.
I still think Sunni Arabs shouldn't be allowed to enter the U.S. for any reason. Yeah,I realize 1 of 13 didn't support killing our soldiers. But,I'm sure his 12 family members will understand.
Iraqi Mojo,
If you speak to me in Arabic I will speak with you. Not single words or phrases.
We are the real Iraqis, not you. You say "only in Bathist circles", well I am honored, and the Bathist circles are the largest, most all encompassing circle in Iraq and the leaders of the Iraqi Resistance who will send all the traitors (you are not even a traitor since you have not been there). I can go to Iraq whenever I please, but I stay away from the areas your traitors and sectarian gangsters control. Many of us Iraqis are forced to live in exile now because of the Persian militias and death squads. But Iraq will be free, and we will return to stay and all the traitors will be swept into the trash bin of history.
You can lie to the ignorant Americans, but not to Iraqis. Remember we are a part of this great nation. I assume your words are directed to the ignorant American people. They have no relevance or meaning in Iraq.
Ba'athist Advocate,
Where are you living right now?
*
Ba'athist Advocate,
Boy, it looks like your "resistance" is all shot to shit, doesn't it?
Where are you guys now? I mean, all three of you. Hiding in Saddam's old spiderhole? Heh heh heh. Fricking losers.
*
Iraqi Mojo,
Congratulations. You have won the hearts and minds of a stupid American who couldn't find Iraq on a map. Like I said, your whole blog seems to be a very American blog. Your topics, choice of words, and attitude is very American. Iraqis do not recognize you. I understand it because I lived in the US for a long time and smell an American miles away, but in Iraq, you would have no meaning. Iraqis would not even understand what you're saying. Has no meaning. No relevance. No context. No point of reference they would recognize. The only thing missing on this blog is a picture of good ole fashioned American Pie to make it complete.
Ba'athist Advocate,
What are you doing here in the Great Satan?
Hey, I asked you a question about that bridge in Baghdad. Afraid to answer?
*
Ba'athist Advocate,
I still smell a phony.
*
Arab Advocate, I guess you are right that Mojo doesn't connect with Al Tikriti Jarubs, wanna be Takfiri lovers, and people who derive great joy from calling others Rafidha, Safavids, Persians, and Jews.
If you are a Tikriti, then I am sorry that Tikritis haven't been treated with the compassion and respect that all humans deserve by their fellow Iraqis, Americans, and the rest of the world.
No one deserves to be treated nearly as bad as Saddam treated Iraqis. And I am sorry that so many have taken revenge on the Takriti.
We are all the children of Allah, through his children Adam and Eve (symbolic for we share the same humanity.)
Just remember "Arab Advocate," we love you.
You may call for our murder. But we still love you.
Arab Advocate, what would you say to Mojo's Iraqi relatives?
80% of Iraqis are Shia and Kurds. Doesn't Iraq belong to them too?
Where are you guys now? I mean, all three of you. Hiding in Saddam's old spiderhole?
Ba'athist Advocate,
From your blog:
I have been a fan of the Rolling Stones all my life, attended many concerts, and still love their timeless music.
The Stones?! How fricking old are you? Jeez, I wonder how many times the Stones rocked Baghdad the last couple decades?
You're a damned phony.
*
Anand,
Hey, that ol' spiderhole isn't very roomy, so each night two of the "glorious resistance" get to sleep inside while the third lies on top with one ear cocked to listen for roving Apache helicopters.
*
Ba'athist Advocate,
From your blog:
The citizens of the US should welcome an era where the American government's ability to project power is diminished. A weaker US, less capable of waging war and meddling in other countries' internal affairs, is in everybody's interest including Americans. I travel with a US passport and I would surely feel much more safe and secure if the US stops antagonizing other people.
Hey, if weaker is better, then the "glorious resistance" is TOPS, baby!
*
Ba'athist Advocate,
From your blog:
When Saddam Hussein was handed over to sectarian gangsters working with the US occupation army to be lynched, he remained (under Iraqi and International law) the legitimate President of the Republic of Iraq, and a POW. He was also the leader of the Iraqi National Resistance and a hero in the Arab world and among many anti-Imperialist forces across this globe. Many Arabs in this country, eager to please and desperately seeking mainstream American approval, mindlessly parrot the official rhetoric of Washington and the propaganda of the corporate media. Many of them consider themselves to be opponents of the US war on Iraq, but feel they must condemn Saddam Hussein and participate in the demonization of this man in order to then move on and politely criticize an immoral war that has resulted thus far in the slaughtering of over a million human beings. I don't carry this burden nor do I seek the approval of anyone. The truth is Saddam Hussein was a secular and progressive Arab Nationalist and an Iraqi patriot who presided over a modern and highly successful experiment which is precisely why Iraq was invaded and dismantled. No other ruler since Gamal Abdul Nasser could claim to also be a leader and enjoy such popular legitimacy.
Saddam is DEAD. Get over it. And could you please stop sleeping in his spiderhole. It's creepy.
*
Anand,
Sorry, I don't love that old hippie. He can go to hell. Anyone who idolizes Saddam Hussein is Satan's bitch.
*
Saddam Advocate, are you a Layla worshiper? Do you use incense?
Are you kidding!? The Rolling Stones are timeless. You go a Stones concert and you fine people from 18-80.
Ba'athist Advocate,
The Stones timeless?! Do you see any DINOSAURS walking around your neighborhood? Grandpa Rock. Oh yeah, great.
By the way, when did you see the Stones in Baghdad, Abu Moustache?
*
When Saddam Hussein was handed over to sectarian gangsters working with the US occupation army to be lynched, he remained (under Iraqi and International law) the legitimate President of the Republic of Iraq
He's not very bright, is he? He acknowledges "US Occupation" which of course means that the US was sovereign in Iraq, as the occupying power always is, under INTERNATIONAL LAW. Saddam's government ceased to exist the day the occupation began.
Ba3thi Advocate, my American friends here have asked you some good questions. Afraid to answer or unable? Do they lie? No - I suspect that you have lied. Were you born in Iraq? Where? You've said I've lied on my blog - please provide an example. My blog is about about me, an Iraqi American. I write about my life, what happened to my family and our friends. I don't pretend to represent all Iraqis like you do. I also write about stuff that has nothing to do with Iraq. I have my own opinions, which may differ from the opinions of many Iraqis - in the new Iraq we are allowed to have our own individual opinions and we can even criticize the government! I don't agree with everything the new Iraqi government has done, but at least there is freedom in Iraq, unlike before 2003. If you find something on my blog that you feel is incorrect, please point it out.
I've said before that you're blogging from Dallas, Texas - at least that's what your IP address says. If you hate America so much, why live here?
Why must Iraqis submit to the Ba3thi bozos and the "resistance" that has mass murdered Iraqis? Why not join the political process and try to lead Iraq the honest and democratic way? How do you feel about the Sunni Arabs who have joined the US fight against Al Qaeda and stopped attacking ISF? When will you realize that Saddam is dead and that killing people who disagree with you is wrong? Shlon mu6aya 3idna bil wa6an al 3arabi?
Jeffrey, thank you for reading his blog and showing us that this "Arab Advocate" is really just a Saddam advocate, and is really out of touch with most Iraqis.
Letting all these Sunni Arabs into the U.S. is a big mistake. Sadman Advocate is just the latest example. How many are helping to sneak suicide bombers into Iraq,or providing material support to Al Qaida? They can't all be talking shit.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/
wp...8011802873.html
Andrew Bacevich eviscerates the Iraq War party with this passionate and clear-sighted essay on 'the Surge to Nowhere' in WaPo. He points out that the real motivation behind last year's troop escalation was to avoid popular outrage building in the US electorate to the point where the troops were pulled out. He observes that the argument for the 'success' of the 'surge' is purely a tactical one. When viewed from the vantage point of grand strategy, the Iraq War is as much a failure as it has always been.
If someone came to you six years ago and said that for only $2 trillion, you could have for your colony a burned out country, a failed state, and a semi-permanent incubator of terrorism and hatred against the US, would you have ponied up the money? That's what you've got, and that is what it cost you.
DJ,
You want real evisceration? Go to the MASTER, Iraq Pundit:
Speaking about the Surge.
After that, Bacevich is going to be eating lots of noodle soup for the next month or so.
And don't listen to that Psycho Sicko American on the comments page at Iraq Pundit's. He's obviously a CIA-Energizer-Bunny Cheney-bot.
*
DJ,
He observes that the argument for the 'success' of the 'surge' is purely a tactical one
Does it really matter if the violence is down dramatically, which it is in most parts of Iraq?
When viewed from the vantage point of grand strategy, the Iraq War is as much a failure as it has always been.
And this makes you happy?
Two trillion is cheap if the Middle East has democracies instead of fascist regimes twenty years down the road. Some people point to Iraq and say it's proof Arabs can't have democracy. We'll see soon enough,won't we?
Wahhabis,Baathists,and Khomeinists will continue to make Arabs who seek democracy pay dearly. They want to hold onto their brutal regimes. But the tide will turn,and all the fascists will fall in the end.
When viewed from the vantage point of grand strategy, the Iraq War is as much a failure as it has always been.
Craig:And this makes you happy?
No it makes me an informed realist not a delusional nationalist ideologue zombie true believer.
Maury:Wahhabis,Baathists,and Khomeinists will continue to make Arabs who seek democracy pay dearly.
Maybe America's support for the Saudi royals, Allawi, and Hakim is as much an antidemocratic force as they are.
If America was for democracy in the ME we wouldn't be in bed with the tyrannical Saudi royals, Mubarak, Sharon/olmert,etc.
I'm with you on the Saudi thing DJ. I'd like to see an independent Eastern Province. That would be the beginning of the end of Wahhabi terrorism. For better or worse,we started backing the Egyptians because they signed a peace treaty with Israel. I don't know if we can back out of that support as long as they uphold their end of the bargain. Israel has democratic elections. Until that changes,we'll be there for them. Same goes for Iraq,Lebanon,Mauritania,and Turkey. I know Mauritania isn't in the Middle East,but it's a former Arab regime that went democratic not long ago,so I threw it in for good measure.
DJ you sound like a Neocon. You agree with them that America should promote freedom and democracy in the middle east and around the world.
I am very happy to hear that you agree with us that it is time the world united against the Saudi, Egyptian and other dictators of the world.
Does DJ stand for Dahr Jamail?
Why don't you like Allawi and Hakim? Do you also dislike the Communist Party of Iraq, and the rest of the UIA politicians?
Arab Advocate, Mohammed forbade worshiping anything other than God in Her (some people also write His) absolute intangible form.
Your hero worship of Saddam is inconsistent with traditional muslim teachings, beliefs, and theology. This blasphemy makes you a kafir to many muslims.
Why do you regard Saddam as a prophet or perfect being? Even Osama Bin Laden, the great Shia killer, regarded Saddam as an evil man.
If you don't mind my asking, do you do Ashoura for Saddam? I hope you haven't hurt your body too much for Saddam for two reasons:
1) I believe that Saddam has mislead you.
2) Beating yourself makes you a Rafidha or Salawid in the eyes of many Takfiris.
In case you missed it:
Iraq war was illegal and breached UN charter, says Annan
Ewen MacAskill and Julian Borger in Washington
Thursday September 16, 2004
The Guardian
The United Nations secretary general, Kofi Annan, declared explicitly for the first time last night that the US-led war on Iraq was illegal.
Mr Annan said that the invasion was not sanctioned by the UN security council or in accordance with the UN's founding charter. In an interview with the BBC World Service broadcast last night, he was asked outright if the war was illegal. He replied: "Yes, if you wish."
He then added unequivocally: "I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN charter. From our point of view and from the charter point of view it was illegal."
Mr Annan has until now kept a tactful silence and his intervention at this point undermines the argument pushed by Tony Blair that the war was legitimised by security council resolutions.
Mr Annan also questioned whether it will be feasible on security grounds to go ahead with the first planned election in Iraq scheduled for January. "You cannot have credible elections if the security conditions continue as they are now," he said.
His remarks come amid a marked deterioration of the situation on the ground, an upsurge of violence that has claimed 200 lives in four days and raised questions over the ability of the interim Iraqi government and the US-led coalition to maintain control over the country.
They also come as Mr Blair is trying to put the controversy over the war behind him in the run-up to the conference season, a new parliamentary term and next year's probable general election.
The UN chief had warned the US and its allies a week before the invasion in March 2003 that military action would violate the UN charter. But he has hitherto refrained from using the damning word "illegal".
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/
S...1305709,00.html
Anand:DJ you sound like a Neocon
WTF! I don't know what you've been smoking but the neocons are the ones in bed with the Tyrannical Saudi Royals and pissing on the very principle of the possibility of democracy. Wake up son, if they were into democracy, they and washington in general, would have quit supporting those guys years and years ago. As it is now, when King Abdullah comes to Washington, Bush holds his hands and calls him your majesty.
Neo-cons are not into democracy, they are into spreading American empire:
PAX AMERICANA.
Maury, the British trained IA were removed from Al Basrah province and sent North.
The IA and forces in Basrah today are US trained:
The 14th IAD (upgrading to tracked mechanized), IA 3-9 Armored brigade, 1 INP brigade:
http://www.longwarjournal.org/mu...t%
20forming.pdf
http://www.longwarjournal.org/mu...ah%
20Sector.JPG
This map might also help: http://www.longwarjournal.org/
mu...raqBdeOOB24.php
Datta, DJ Elliot is writing a piece to help explain the status of the ISF, and how to interpret the 2018 statement.
In the interim, you can see:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...26275986892018/
The timeline will depend on large part on Iraq’s neighbors. Many Iraqis do not want to spend more on their defense budget, for many of the same reasons Pres Eisenhower tried to cut defense spending in the 1950s. This delays IA readiness.
Maury and everyone else, see:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...26275986892018/
for a discussion of the Talisman gate linked video from Al Hurra featuring the Iraqi Police battling a group of ragtag heretics. Please join in the discussion there.
DJ, your definition of Neocon is different from mine.
I regard Wolfowitz, William Crystal, and http://topics.nytimes.com/top/op...ooks/
index.html as a Neo Cons. VP Cheney is not a Neo Con.
Neo cons are former Trotskyites were inspired by Pres Wilson’s idealistic vision of the world, and believed that America should use its power to promote this vision. Their premier intellectual founder is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Strauss
The NeoCons were inspired by John Kennedy, Anti-Kissenger Democratic Senator Scoop Jackson, and later Ronald Reagan. Most are still Democrats.
I share the Neo Cons’ disagreement with Kissinger. Do you support Kissenger against the Neo-Cons.
"but the neocons are the ones in bed with the Tyrannical Saudi Royals "
We've had a mutual defense treaty with KSA since Roosevelt. Every President for the last 60 years has been in bed with KSA. Neocon is a fairly recent term coined by Dems to denote someone they really,really don't like.
Hillary is de-facto more hawkish on Iraq than most Republicans, maybe more than even Bush:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlanti...like-
hilla.html
Obama will also see the fight in Iraq through.
Romney, I am not sure.
"Obama will also see the fight in Iraq through."
And he'll do it in two months...LOL.
"Senator and presidential candidate Barack Obama today introduced legislation calling for a phased redeployment of US troops in Iraq to be concluded by March 31, 2008."
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/a...1/30/
45227.aspx
McCain said from the beginning we needed more troops in Iraq. When Clinton and Obama were calling for abandonment,he called for the surge. Clinton and/or Obama,since one will probably run as the others vice-president,better hope Americans forget all that come election time.
[maury] It's true everybody knew the IP's in Basra were infiltrated by Sadrists. If something like that happened in the states,heads would fly.
Not true. The US government has been infiltrated by Neocons, and you nice folks even re-elected them.
[maury] "What the heck do they think we wanted with Afghanistan if not Al Qaida? "
Trans Afghan oil pipeline + geostrategic location in addition to the small matter that AQ attacked you on 911.
[craig] "You may or may not know this, but I've wanted US forces out of Iraq for a couple years now. I changed my mind (kind of) about a month ago."
Interesting to note that the moment the Americans stopped dying so much, Craig's all for the occupation. Is force the only language you folks understand?
"Trans Afghan oil pipeline + geostrategic location"
No trans Afghan pipeline is under production. None can be under production until Pakistan stabilizes, and India Pakistani ties improve.
What is wrong with Afghans collecting a $300 to $400 million annual transit fee to transport natural gas (more likely natural gas than oil) from the southern Stans to India, and a lesser degree China?
India and China get to buy natural gas slightly cheaper (due to lower transportation costs.) The Southern Stans get slightly higher prices (due to lower transportation costs.)
Pakistan collects transit fees and slightly lower energy costs (by saving money on transportation costs.)
The whole world wins (probably two pipelines . . . one directly into India, and the other to the port of Karachi where it would be primarily exported to India and a lesser degree China and other East Asian countries.)
Even South Africa might slightly benefit from slightly lower transport costs for importing energy.
South Africa, like Europe, Japan, South Korea, India, America, and Chile, imports most of its energy.
I suspect that what really motivates Bruno is global warming. Maybe he wants to disrupt all global hydrocarbon transportation as a method to increase global energy prices, and encourage substitution into alternate energy sources.
Maybe that is also why he supports slaughtering the ISF and Iraq’s economy. He hopes it will raise global energy prices.
Bruno, since this is what you appear to believe, consider buying CY if it drops below $22.
There are also other energy stocks you should also look at carefully.
[anand] "What is wrong with Afghans collecting a $300 to $400 million annual transit fee to transport natural gas"
Nothing. But what's wrong with Afghans refusing to collect millions of dollars for doing so? Interesting to note that the moment the Taliban became obstacles to US ambitions, they turned EVIL. Gosh, so throwing acid in the faces of women is OK if you're a US-supporter, but bad if you're not? Strange morality going around these days.
[anand] I suspect that what really motivates Bruno is global warming.
I suspect that what REALLY motivates Anand is the control of the global present distribution network.
You never did provide proof of the 1802 Elf massacre. Anand. You need to speak up on this matter, or you're going to look like one of those imperial Santa supporters. What about the 1802 massacre? Why are you silent on this?
"Interesting to note that the moment the Taliban became obstacles to US ambitions, they turned EVIL."
Huh? I can't find any U.S. involvement in that pipeline project in any way,shape,or form. Unocal pulled out in '96. Also,I'm pretty sure most folks in the U.S. thought the Taliban was EVIL from the beginning. The UAE and Saudi arabia were the only countries to recognize their government,mostly due to U.S. efforts.
[maury] "Also,I'm pretty sure most folks in the U.S. thought the Taliban was EVIL from the beginning."
Alas, no. For example:
"According to the book, the Bush administratino began to negotiate with the Taliban immediately after coming into power in February. US and Taliban diplomatic representatives met several times in Washington, Berlin and Islamabad. To polish their image in the United States, the Taliban even employed a US expert on public relations, Laila Helms. The authors claim that Helms is also an expert in the works of US intelligence organizations, for her uncle, Richard Helms, is a former director of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). "
http://www.atimes.com/c-asia/CK2...a/
CK20Ag01.html
I'm sure that most ordinary Americans would be against forming relations with people like the Taliban, but then, since when did ordinary Americans have a say in US foreign policy?
"According to the book, the Bush administratino began to negotiate with the Taliban immediately after coming into power in February."
What,like that's some kind of secret? Bush negotiated with the Taliban right up to the invasion of Afghanistan. Those negotiations were very public. We wanted bin Laden,and didn't want to invade Afganistan to get him. Hell,we negotiated with Saddam right up to that invasion. We just wanted him out of power. If he'd have accepted exile,all this could have been avoided.
As for the two authors claims of some big oil interest in Afghanistan? That's just stupid.
"While immensely important to Turkmenistan – and beneficial to the companies that would build it – the trans-Afghan gas pipeline that Unocal advocated in 1998 is just a small piece of the overall export route jumble. It was effectively abandoned in favor of another route, across the Caspian Sea, long before Sept. 11. Neither pipeline was ultimately built, not because of the Taliban or geopolitics but because of hesitation by the Turkmen government and lukewarm interest among energy companies. The interim Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, renewed calls for the trans-Afghan pipeline in May 2002."
http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/oil-pr.cfm
Yeah,that's why we invaded Afganistan Bruno....LOL.
maury
I dont think you want democracy in the arab world(noticed how no one ever talks about it in the whitehouse?) if you really wanted true democracy , you would not be happy with the results , more elected leaders would be anti US presence and would be anti US puppets and would put their people s intersts first before US agendas , and most Islamic parties and Muslim brotherhood will take over and the kings and Emirs will be behind bars . think about it .
"more elected leaders would be anti US presence and would be anti US puppets and would put their people s intersts first before US agendas"
I could live with that Leyla. I'm more concerned that democracy only lasts until Islamists gain control. Will Hamas allow opposition parties? Would Hezbollah allow free elections? Doesn't EVERY country put their own interests first? If not,they certainly should.
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