Well, since no lawsuit of that type can succeed the Frosts have nothing to worry about in that regard. The human sacrifice idea is interesting but what if the Gods don't want them and are offended at being given such offerings?
I have visions of a booming, disembodied voice bellowing obscenities followed by a copious fall of large hail.
My father's hands and eyes used to slip. Along with various abuses, my ex used to "accidentally" hurt me or say horrible things that he didn't mean. Repeatedly. I've heard of parents who let their kids have sex, drugs, and alcohol under their roof even at the age of 13 or 14 under the premise "better at home than with strangers."
When it comes to abuse, I stopped caring for disingenuous well meaning "explanations" years ago. That's not just well placed anger, that's wisdom. That's healing.
Sexual abuse of minors is so damaging even at the verbal level because it still breaks trust during formative years and causes confusion and emotional pain, all of which go to the core and touch every aspect of an individual's life.
The passage in question broke trust during the formative years of many modern Pagan paths and also went to the core. Just words...no proof...wasn't that bad...bull!
If there needs to be a public cleansing by fire (in effigy), then so be it. (Suddenly pictures a virtual web page collection of bic lighters or torches in support for the event.)
Is burning people, even if effigy, something we really want Paganism associated with? Do we want to star having to add clarifying footnotes to our claims that "we don't do human sacrifices"?
I'm quite taken aback by the notion that burning someone in effigy is something you should do as a parent to teach your children your spiritual path.
That said, I remember that during the nineties, Gavin (and maybe Yvonne to a lesser extent?) joined the Compuserve pagan forum for a while. I found him really creepy just because of what he was saying there, and my internal warning klaxons kept going off.
You might want to ask what human sacrifices are made when abusive ideas and/or deeds are not confronted for years.
http://dictionary.reference.com/...rowse/
sacrifice
Burning in effigy is not a sacrifice-- not an offering. It's a cleansing.
When a cleansing is coupled with education about abuse and empowerment, it curbs confusion over time (over time!), repairs trust, and allows community-wide healing to begin.
Jason, I'd like to comment on your disclaimer. Whether the Frosts or their supporters have actually done those actions or not should be irrelevant to us.
That "initiation" sequence quoted, whether fantasy or literal instructions, is still pedophilia porn. I'd hope our community would have zero tolerance for having that sleazy garbage connected with us in any shape or form.
I’m sort of saddened by the call to burn someone in effegy,even someone I don't care for,or disagree with.
The Danger with this type of display, if you disagree with A.J. Drew then you are "For" the Alleged Pedophiles.
I am always wary of people who pick on people who can't be defended and make declarations that you cannot object to without being lumped with the people who are being attacked.
I think that if the Frost are Pedophiles or have abused anyone, this kind of display just makes a mockery of the abuse the people who suffered have gone through, and gives any issues a sort of "Carnival" appearance.
I would like think that as Pagans, and Polite adults we can have discourse and dialogue without all the "Look at me!" attention grabbing that the Festival promoters seem to be doing. That sort of thing robs the issue of Dignity and reduces it to a farce.
I love the Burning of Effigies, and have no objection to the use of this sort or Practice, but when you are dealing with the lives of victims, and real issues, you have to stop back and say "Let's deal with this with Tact, and make it an issue that we can really do something about rather than just burn something and hope that we get a lot of attention for it.
I wonder if the idea of "Witches" burning witches" is a good idea.
Maybe there could be a fund raiser to help awareness of Child Sexual abuse, or maybe the Topic could be raised in a forum in a Pagan Festival. I would not advocate dropping the topic, I think that if the Frosts Advocate abusing minors, then it should be brought to light, just not in this P.T.Barnum Fashion.
And why would it have to be handled in a circus-like manner rather than in the manner of a cleansing?
If it bothers you that the effigies are specific to certain individuals, then you could name them "pedophilia" and "failure to confront."
It can be argued that what the Frosts wrote IS illegal. It is illegal (in the USA) to write anything that promotes or encourages other to perform illegal acts. That law is what is used against NAMBLA. I put the Frosts on a par with NAMBLA.
As far as deciding what Pagans stand for or are associated with...this Pagan stands for not abusing children and refuses to associate with those who molest or advocate child molestation. I don't understand why some Pagans seem so timid about this topic.
Not an either/or choice between cleansing & education about abuse. Can benefit from both.
In fact, cleansing rituals are exponentially helpful when when companion to education and empowerment...as part of the destructive-creative healing processes.
If it bothers you that the effigies are specific to certain individuals, then you could name them "pedophilia" and "failure to confront."
But Drew isn't doing that. He's naming these effigies after specific, living human beings who have never been accused of committing a crime. Drew's "opinion" that the Frosts are pedophiles is just that, an opinion, which, like assholes, belong equally to everyone. There are no accusations by any human being. Ever.
The Frosts say shocking and upsetting things, and I don't condone that chapter in that book, but those who have met them in person find them gentle, charming, and good-hearted, and extremely generous. There is an enormous difference between verbal abuse of an actual child and writing something that would be abusive if it was actually done.
The Frosts are an elderly and frail couple. Can anyone say for sure that this kind of magic, projected against them by name, will cause no harm to their health or well-being? Are people being asked to participate in magical murder? This is a very ugly ritual.
The Frosts are an elderly and frail couple. Can anyone say for sure that this kind of magic, projected against them by name, will cause no harm to their health or well-being? Are people being asked to participate in magical murder?
I had wondered about that, myself.
I wouldn't call anyone who advocated child RAPE "gentle, charming, and good-hearted, and extremely generous."
I am saddened that some seem more upset by burning the effigy than by what the Frosts stand for. I am ill at the thought that some seem sympathetic towards them.
There should be no tolerance for child molestation and those who advocate for it. Every religious group either has or will face this issue. What do you do about those in positions of power and authority who approve of, perform the abuse, or look the other way when children are harmed? The Catholic Church failed in how they handled child sexual abuse. And so far, we are failing as well.
1. Well, let's see if Drew is open to communication, such as objections voiced here or my suggestion to rename the effigies "pedophilia" and "failure to confront."
2. One way or another, what festers in the shadows needs to be dealt with...community shadow work.
Kudos to Jason for bringing it up in the manner that he did.
I have known the Frosts for decades and they are good people. The overwhelming majority of their words and actions have benefited the Craft more than harmed it.
Gavin put that chapter in his first book primarily for shock effect, to get people thinking and arguing about what our theories about adolescent sexuality should be. So he put something in that was as far from the mainstream as possible. This was a really foolish thing to do, as it has led to unfounded accusations against the Frosts ever since.
Drew's plans have all the earmarks of a publicity stunt designed to improve attendance at his otherwise obscure event. "Real Witches" should know, however, that burning someone in effigy is a sympathetic-magical curse designed to kill them. Attempted magical murder, no matter what the motive, is ethically as dangerous as attempted physical murder, especially against someone who has never been proven guilty of a crime.
What's that stuff I'm always hearing about "harm none"?
Burning in effigy is not a sacrifice--
The problem is, Sari, AJ Drew himself has called his intended action a sacrifice.
Read the first quote again:
"...in which I will sacrifice Gavin and Yvonne Frost in effigy."
Drew's very words make his own intentions crystal clear.
There are better ways of publicly denouncing someone than a ritual substitution sacrifice. Sympathetic magic, yes, I think it is exactly that. It's not something I would participate in, and I would wonder at those who do participate.
It's not about approving of sexual abuse. Even assuming they were guilty and I knew it, I'd still not do it. I'd work magic for justice to be done, but not account myself judge, jury, and executioner (as this does). Let them be accused (by victims) and stand trial. Or be publicly shamed if the statute of limitations is past. Not wanting to participate in a magical murder is not equal to condoning sexual abuse.
Besides... Sacrifice: You're doing it wrong. A sacrifice is something of value to you. If you are getting rid of something that you consider repugnant, that's not sacrifice. ^_^
OK, I'm a survivor of molestation myself and you don't see ME getting behind anyone burning my stepfather in effigy (yes, it was my stepfather who molested me).
And do you think for a NY minute I'm going to condone what I went through? Um, Hel no!
Gosh, and I thought the Frosts' heterosexism was the worst of it! (I haven't been around that long and haven't read their books. I've seen them talk a couple of times.) The passages from their book that Drew has up on his site are truly repellant, not to mention just stupid. Have the Frosts ever disavowed them?
The Frosts may be part of the "loony fringe" of Wicca (as Jason put it in an earlier post), but they claim with a great deal of confidence to be the founders of U.S. Wicca. Goddess forbid the press should ever get hold of any of their claims. Rumors of animal sacrifice will be the least of our problems.
That said, we cannot accuse them of pedophilia without evidence. Also, whether they publish offensive materials and espouse offensive views, or whether they've committed crimes, burning in effigy seems a stupid way to deal with the issue.
"Jason, I'd like to comment on your disclaimer. Whether the Frosts or their supporters have actually done those actions or not should be irrelevant to us."
While this is only a blog, I like to think I hold to some standard of good journalism. So I felt it prudent to mention that even though they have been accused of being active pedophiles, there have been no charges or evidence brought forth to back that up.
I have never condoned pedophilia, abuse, or molestation in any form. Nor am I making light of the effect their written works may have. I was simply adding information for the curious.
I've never heard of this dispute before. All I can say is that, given our history, burning a witch, even in effigy, sounds terribly wrong to me. I can think of many other ways to "cleanse" or do whatever it is that is meant to be done here. Witch wars seldom produce anything worthwhile.
While I was really shocked to read what I'm told were the excepts from the Frost's book, I have to agree with what is said by a few people.
Burning a witch in effigy is a little to familiar to be comfortable.
AJ Drew, while writing in his published books about love and tolerance, has proved himself not someone who practices what he preaches. The childish anger rants on his website are so petty that it boggles the mind that he feels he can place judgement on others.
That said, while it appears at this time that we do not have any evidence that the Frost's followed through on what they write about, I find the text abhorrent in every way and think it was SEVERELY irresponsible of them to publish such filth.
Hmm, let's see. In the 16th century the Christians burned people they thought were witches. In the 21st century the Witches are, at least symbolically, burning each other.
Obviously Santayana had it wrong. Those who know too much history just can't wait to repeat it.
Now, of course, question will be, will the Frosts respond by burning their critics in effigy? (And I would expect they would at least set up some sort of mirroring to reflect the energy of the sacrifice back.)
This could get interesting and we can make bets on which side has spontaneous pagan combustion first.
I often wonder what 'good journalism' is.
Either the Frosts are guilty of this or not. If they are, prove it, and if not, lay off. Write to their publisher and explain the heinous quality of the chapter in question. I've never read the book, and I've never cared for what of theirs that I have read.
Frankly I'd listen to Isaac Bonewits' take on the Frosts, and that burning in effigy is the Wrong Thing To Do.
When I was away, the quickest way to just about get a person killed was for someone to point and say, "He's a molester! what'cha gonna do?!", and a mob would form. Between pencils and boot heels the guy would be in a coma before the gunrails could respond. That sort of thing was done out of either boredom or revenge. Or someone had somthing to hide. Anyone ever watch movies? Ever see a lynch mob form in a film? Did the person leading it ever have their own agenda? If what's his name is hiding behind words like "my opinion" and "I believe" I'd back Way Off and call him on his talk. And call the Frosts on their talk too.
FWIW, I don't think he will be burning the effigies, one thread said he would be decapitating them with a sword.
I actually still have that dreadful book buried away somewhere and it was pretty hard to take seriously when it came out back in 1972.
I honestly did not know that they were even still alive. They must be pushing 130 by now.
I wouldn't call anyone who advocated child RAPE "gentle, charming, and good-hearted, and extremely generous."
That's inflammatory and not designed to promote discussion. They don't advocate child rape; they wrote a passage in a book 30 years ago that suggested a ritual deflowering. You understand that as rape. I understand it as rape. But they don't "advocate" it.
I have known Gavin and Yvonne for over twenty years. Hell, I named a car Yvonne because it reminded me of Yvonne Frost (it was a Crone car). I am comfortable characterizing people I know in ways that reflect what I know.
even though they have been accused of being active pedophiles.But never by any victims.
We're not just talking about "no evidence;" there is often no evidence of child molestation. We're talking about no victims and no accusations. AJ Drew doesn't have an accusation, he has an opinion.
It is simply not plausible that there are all these victims that have never come forward. They have been under fire for this book for 30-plus years and been in contact with dozens and dozens of young women, and no one has ever said "I was hurt."
As a survivor myself, I feel like I have pretty good Perp Radar. I cannot believe the Frosts are harmful people. But even setting that aside, if there is no victim, there is no crime (legally or otherwise).
one thread said he would be decapitating them with a sword.Well, that makes it all right then./sarcasm
I tried to link to Drew's site and all it did was freeze my browser, so here's my 2 electrons worth.
Rituals of symbolic destruction in this case seem kind of lame and not that useful. If there is any chance that the Frosts actually harmed someone, this should be found out, and dealt with, by normal, legal means.
I recall finding that book once and being annoyed not just by the assumption of straightness and gender roles but some simplistic ideas that different races had different talents. It has been many years since I got rid of said book so I don't remember a whole lot, but the idea of wooden dilators is a good one, except for the possibility of splinters. Use safer materials! Every mother should get her daughter a graduated set--or better yet, teach the kid to run a lathe. But really, I would not have been happy being messed with at 12, I know I wasn't at 14, and I don't think any kid should go thru that, whatever the mystical rationale.
If the Frosts have said things that actually encourage anyone to do harm to the young, they should come forward and disavow it, and make sure it is out of any present edition of the book. But the lynch mob mentality must not run unchecked, even about such a hot button as this.
The website froze my browser as well. Could it be that the Frosts have already begun their counter-attack?
“The overwhelming majority of their words and actions have benefited the Craft more than harmed it.”
Isaac, I respect, support, appreciate and agree with a lot of your work. However, there’s a saying that’s apt here. “Sometimes one awww sh*t can’t be wiped away by a thousand thattaboys.”
“This was a really foolish thing to do, as it has led to unfounded accusations against the Frosts ever since.”
Regardless of whether the Frosts ever practiced or condoned pedophilia, I don’t buy that the passage in question was merely “foolish,” for shock effect, and to open dialogue about what “adolescent sexuality should be.” Sorry, that’s so mild that it’s dishonest, if unwittingly.
“So he put something in that was as far from the mainstream as possible.”
It’s more than off mainstream, it’s just off. The Pagan community needs to articulate the difference. Boldly and succinctly. Power of naming things and all. The Frosts didn’t just hit a nerve because they were getting into theories about what adolescent sexuality should be. They wandered into the topic of pedophilia. Pedophilia porn, as Carol put it.
“Drew's plans have all the earmarks of a publicity stunt "Real Witches" should know, however, that burning someone in effigy is a sympathetic-magical curse designed to kill them.”
Okay, I hear you about the earmarks of a publicity stunt and burning actual individuals in effigy but even if Drew didn’t exist it looks as if the Pagan community needs to tend to some shadow work, education, and honest dialogue. Whatever it takes that's beneficial. Else, things tend to fester and become toxic -- they tend to become hurtful in insidious ways. I think that's obvious enough.
Sometimes a lot of harm comes from what we don’t do (confront, educate, and so on). Remedying that also figures into 'harm none' and I'd like to see more focus on that in the community.
False accusations sound like a politicians need for free advertising. Need Unity within Pagan Circles, not foolish divisions of fear, like the Christian groups are living proof of. Danger of AJDrew drawing the hidden cameras and cell phone tapes of his own group by our watchful government!
Just two hours after the polls closed on the East Coast, all three networks predict that challenger Ronald Reagan has defeated incumbant President Jimmy Carter.
In other words, this whole discussion happened back around 1980, with all the same arguments argued and postures postured. Reading them now, I fell as though I have been sucked into the Terrible Time Vortex.
Frankly, Drew should convert to Islam and become an imam. Then he could issue fatwas about who should be beheaded or stoned to death. He would be right at home.
I'm not seeing much support here of Drew on either a magickal or mundane level. I don't know that what he is doing or the way that he is doing it are what most of us would like to see.
But Chas, do you feel there should be some sort of statute of limitations, whereby writing about incestuous pedophilia as being a way to initiate a child into the Craft (whether as fiction, or as instructions) gets a free pass after a certain number of years? Or that being outraged by it is just a "posture"?
I'll just add that if your ritual intent is to ensure that "those such as the Frosts" may never join your "new tradition" there are far better ways to ritualistically ensure that than chopping off their heads or burning them. This guy is a rather poor witch, magician, ritualist. He could fence the effigies off, wall them off, lock a door between his new group and the effigies, etc. It makes me sad when Wiccans demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the techniques of magic.
First off before i comment ..the Frosts arent 130..Yet ..Gavin was born in 1930 and Yvonne 1931. Secondly Gavin didnt found Wicca in America.. But Gavin and Oberon Zell of Church Of All Worlds did put a case forth to the supreme court in 1970 at which time they did get Wicca recognized as a religion which in turn gave wiccans the ability to get there 501 c3 non profit status.. Also as for Isaac Bonewits taking them on Hes been interviewed for one of the GoDolphin House Videos called Druidism for a New age. And as far as Dealing with the Defloration topic in the GWB gavin and yvonne have both made it clear that they do not condone the practice in modsern witch craft traditions or there own traditions covens. Mr Drew is just doing this to sell books and prove to the world he is indeed not the smartest pagan man out there. As for my opinion it is based on first hand association with the Frosts family for the last 15 years. Also the case file about the non profit status is findable online
Something that we might want to take into consideration is mentioned within a long and somewhat tediously repetitive thread in a forum that I think Jason might have linked to.
In it Drew discusses his many serious health problems, and the wide range of medications he's on. This may be a contributing factor in terms of what he's taking on, and how he's doing it...
Rather than discuss Drew's medications...
I'd rather hear all the ways people creatively study, research, or learn about boundaries and scope regarding the goal and magic at hand.
That's what was missing in the offensive passages.
Carol,
Given that the book was (a) written more than 30 years ago, (b) had small sales, and (c) that the offending passage was hypothetical (like the group-marriage stuff in their even rarer novel, THE DEAD FROG IS MINE), yes, I could see giving it a pass -- or discussing it merely as a historical artifact.
It never was any sort of widespread Craft teaching, and if people like Drew did not rake up those coals again, no one would remember or care.
The Frost's troubling work even came up in wildhunt blog comments in reaction to Teresa Gilman case.
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...33029819911502/
In regards the Frost's troubling work that's in question, when you bring up what you can't put down things seem to have a life of their own and refuse to stay under the rug, obscure, or merely interesting from a historical perspective...however you want to put it.
Education, clarity, and discussion seem preferable to hoping that if everyone will just behave themselves and not mention it, then everything will be fine and kept in a certain perspective.
I don't know if I see that the topic has been visited and dealt with satisfactorily yet -- the story seems scattered across comments and times that not everyone has seen.
It never was any sort of widespread Craft teaching, and if people like Drew did not rake up those coals again, no one would remember or care.
I find myself in complete agreement w/ Chas here. Wicca has evolved quite a bit since the early 1970s. I've been a Wiccan for 20 years and have NEVER head about this passage until now. I've never know any group of Wiccans who engaged in or supported this practice. What's the point to bringing it up now and starting a witch war?
Just for comparison, here is what a real pedophile looks and sounds like:
http://www.puellula.com/Main.html
(Offensive ideas, no offensive images.)
You might want to note the "preferred symbols" in case you run across them somewhere.
Sheesh, Chas, it takes a lot to make me feel queasy. You win.
I read a lot, so in my mere 12 years in Paganism, I've seen the topic of the Frosts' troubling passage brought up a number of times and usually it hasn't been for the purpose or in the manner of a witch war (which is why I gave the example I did in that last link...Daven brought the topic up in a reasonable manner).
When it comes to crossing the type of lines that the Frosts did (and as far as they took it, and they took it far), I never want to see or hear again is that _____ isn't that bad in comparison to _____ or because they didn't really mean or advocate it. Please!
It's healthy to hear that what they did was very wrong and why, naming what lines they crossed. That's why I did that earlier.
It's healthy to see stronger words (and I don't mean foul language) than "foolish" used to describe it.
Also, while Drew's proposed method of handling the topic (beheading in effigy) is undesirable, thorny, and objectionable, he did not do a bad deed by covering the passage in question with the clarity and outrage that he managed at that point. It shows how far the Frosts actually went with the idea.
I don’t think it'd be my place, but it could be most excellent for someone to create a page up on the topic and handle it in an excellent unflinching educational manner, with clarity, and with sufficient scope (including magical approaches).
There are a lot of valuable lessons to be had, some of them are transferable, and I’d hate to see them missed for fear of witch wars and other concerns.
This is not a matter of a witch war its the matter of Mr Drew in the name of free speech being accusatory of people im sure he has never even met.with all his ranting and raving against anyone in the Witchcraft community he doesnt agree with he better think twice that his slanderous comments will end him up as a defendant in the civil suit he craves so much. To continue with hiscrusade is going to hurt him and our community greatly
Gavin put that chapter in his first book primarily for shock effect, to get people thinking and arguing about what our theories about adolescent sexuality should be. So he put something in that was as far from the mainstream as possible -- Isaac Bonewits
That's rather disingenuous, Isaac. It's very clearly referring to performing sexual acts with pre-teens who have only just started to show signs of reaching puberty, NOT adolescent sexuality.
This is ancient, from thirty years ago? It was published only 7 years before Drawing Down the Moon and The Spiral Dance. Real Magic managed to precede it by a couple of years and still be relevant today.
I don't care how long ago it was written. I think it should be hung around the necks of the Frosts and be attached to them for as many lifetimes as it needs to.
I googled both the web and the newsgroups, and there's been very little discussion of this in public, with it cropping up maybe a couple of dozen times online since 1994. Somebody claiming to be a witch decided to expand on her alleged upbringing by annotating some of the Frost selections on alt.sex.stories.incest . Just charming.
There seems to be some confusion as to what the status of the controversial material is, with many of you indicating that it has been unavailable for years.
However, if this series of 4 web pages is indeed accurately presenting the material as being from the 7th edition (2000), the pedophiliac material is still quite intact and available in their latest edition.
It starts with the Forward, in which they explain that each chapter from the original is reprinted here in the Good Witch's Bible, with a forward for each chapter explaining any changes in their thoughts or practices since that time.
http://www.freewebs.com/controve.../WB/
Forward.htm
See, they did think a bit about not including the dildos, but that's because there aren't many virgins coming to them these days:
"Since very few virgins are currently being initiated, one of the areas we might have deleted is that concerning the use of the phallus."
Their Forward to Chapter IV now says No formal initiation into a group that practices the great rite should be done before the candidate attains the age of eighteen." The bolding of "formal" is mine; I (and others) wonder what an "informal" initiation is in contrast. It in no way indicates they think their old way of initiating of children is wrong, and appears to be merely an attempt to cover their asses in a legal sense.
http://www.freewebs.com/
controve...ToChapterIV.htm
Today many fathers are afraid even to bathe their own children for fear of later lawsuits centered around molestation. In such a social climate it is more difficult then ever before for parents to teach children good sexual information and etiquette
That gave me the chills, that this should be their concern rath
CONTINUED
That gave me the chills, that this should be their concern rather than the welfare of a child.
"The sponsors for the child or novice are the most recent coven initiates, though if there is too large a differential in age or physique, the coven elects special sponsors.
So if the most recent coven initiates are a sixty year old woman (to initiate a young boy), or a guy with a really, really big dick (to initiate a young girl), a partner more suitable can be substituted. But not the High Priest, he's too "awe-inspiring." See, they are thoughtful after all.
So, let's review.
Gavin and Yvonne Frost do not repudiate their instruction manual for raping children as sex education and initiation into what they teach is Wicca. Those instructions are still in a book which they have revised and reprinted a number of times.
The Frosts say that it is okay for the father of a pre-teen who has just started to menstruate (she'd be about 12) to help her stick homemade dildos up her vagina, for a specified period of time (10-20 minutes AM and PM) over a few weeks. It doesn't have to be Daddy helping her with her dildos, it could be the guy from the coven she's going to fuck at the initiation. After all, Gavin and Yvonne are sure he'll be her BFF! (Best Friend Forever: "The sponsor is an outside friend, one on whom the child or novice can depend").
"The final three days before the initiation are a time of fasting. Ideally, only honey, water, and homemade bread should be taken."
So these growing 12 year olds just live on bread and water and honey for 3 days, and then you give them a full glass of mead as part of the initiation. Sorry, I've forgotten, in what state is it legal to get kids drunk before raping them? None? Oh that mean Establishment!
"Throughout the fast the novices are given a demonstration of introitus by a couple selected by the coven."
It's a three day fast. So how often is this "throughout" -- every day? Couple of times a day? I'm assuming that it would be better to shoot for a three day weekend for the initiation, so there aren't any awkward questions about why the kid only has a bread and honey sandwich and water in her Scooby Do lunchbox at school (remember, she's in 5th or 6th grade). I'm surprised that Gavin and Yvonne haven't dropped the live "This is how to fuck" lessons, given how these kids today can find all that stuff on the internet.
So the kids are in circle on the big day, they do some vows and questions. The two sponsors then take the drunken 12 year olds out of the room and rape them. Then I think when they come back in they take some of the sperm (out of the condom?) and throw it in the fire to give it back to God. The Frost refer to it as "seeds," "the fruits of your [your sponsor's] body." When they say that, and use words like "introitus," you have to take their claim that they prefer to not be "hi
CONTINUED
words like "introitus," you have to take their claim that they prefer to not be "hiding behind euphemisms" with a little salt.
This is not a little icebreaker for spurring conversations about teen sexuality in our uptight society. This is not anthropological research on survival of paleolithic culture.
This is instructions for raping children, in the name of Wicca.
Let's go over this one more time, I'm not sure everyone is clear on the distasteful and heinous quality of the chapter in question.
Instead of burning the effigies of anyone, just burn the book, it seems to be the issue. If you care for the Frosts, purchase their book and burn it. If you care for pre-teen girls, burn the book.
Burn The Book. When it's gone there will be less, much less, of an issue.
Now book-burning! Is it any wonder that no one takes pagans seriously?
It's more complicated than being offensive!
Everything is political, even if within a community, and there is no guarantee that it'll stay that way.
The Frosts wrote what they wrote, in a book with the word "Bible" in it no less, claimed to have founded Wicca, and won that court case that benefitted not just Wiccans but a variety of Pagans0.
It's my impression that that some people are being a bit too kind about the whole thing because they feel protective of Wicca/Paganism. So many lives, so much investment, all the focus on ethics/excellence, all that work...such a sticky situation.
Unfortunately, that type of kindness freakin' backfires in the face of passion for truth and healthy sexuality.
I believe that mr Drew could give a fig less about the Frosts hes a self righteous sensationalist.. kind of like Jerry Fallwell or a Pat Robertson.. This guy is a hack writer who craves publicity.. well hes gonna get what he deserves thats for sure.. karma can be a bitch
Drew is not the scope of the problem. Is everyone focusing on him, him, him, him, him, and him again because it's easier (cop out!) than discussing all the aspects that this fiasco does touch?
Between burning people (in effigy) or a book, I'd burn the book.
I don't think people in the past have taken this community less seriously for actions occuring in the present. Horse and cart. This might be viewed as house-cleaning.
Currently this appears to be an in-house discussion. If and when it erupts into the courtroom, then we may wonder what others may think.
Of course it's political now.
Best wishes, -jb
Either burn in effigy or burn the book is not the dilemma.
Honesty and house cleaning are, yes.
Burning people in effigy is merely funny to the very outsiders you wish to impress. Burning books is something bad people in brown shirts did and is guaranteed bad press no matter what the reason and is regarded as very unfunny.
If you hold a book-burning all you do is ensure that the book will become very popular.
I'm sorry, I did not mean to suggest to "hold a book burning", I meant to say to purchase the book and quietly do it oneself.
I was looking for a solution and failed. Mea culpa, to turn a pretty phrase. But frankly, burning effigies is not funny. Or harmless.
Best wishes for a speedy resolution in this matter, as well as when it pops up again.
I'd prefer to see light being shone on this, rather than heat.
While perhaps emotionally satisfying, burning some copies doesn't keep those who come to this uncritically thinking this is what Wicca is all about from following directions. It doesn't keep information off the net, whether in the hands of pagans or those who wish us harm. More importantly if all the thousands of copies disappear, what also disappears is the ability to check for accuracy anything that is said about this in the future, especially if it is only available as rumor or lore. Same reason we have to keep some smallpox virus stockpiled.
Understand that this is not just young girls who are to be sexually initiated. Boys entering puberty will also be sexually initiated in the same ritual by a female sponsor.
The male novice is instructed by his sponsor on his role and responsibilities in life. She reviews with him the functions of his various glands in fertilization; she also examines him to make certain that he knows precisely what he must and must not do during his initiation.
http://www.freewebs.com/controve...B/
ChapterIV.htm
Detailed instructions rather than just so-called "anthropological" context:
On page 99 are the instructions for making the phalli:
Each female initiate, whether virgin or not, uses the phalli. Her sponsor makes them for her, using hardwood gathered as for an ankh except that it can be gathered at any season of the year. A 4-inch length of 3/4 inch diameter, and a 4-inch length of 1-1/4 inch diameter are required. Each piece is peeled, carved, and smoothed into the shape shown in Figure 30. A nylon cord is passed through the hole and is carefully knotted or spliced. The assembled phalli are boiled in beeswax ...
These are quoted from the 2000 edition. I wonder if they are covered in the Frosts' video on making initiation tools?
http://st09.startlogic.com/~pend.../
goodwitch.html
http://www.magusbooks.com/
catalo...tail=000VMAKINI
No its is not Covered in that video series.. And as i write this i have recieved an email from Isaac Bonewits stating that Gavin and Yvonne have contacted there attorney about this matter. I whole heartedly applaude them for doing so. Mr Drew wants drama.. its what hes going to get
Both (!) the Frosts and Drew asked for all the wrong attention and are entangled with each other now.
While obviously involved in the topic at hand, Drew vs. the Frosts et al is hardly the scope (understatement).
Open dialogue on and the promotion of healthy (!) ethics and sexuality is and that's an area in which informed boundaries, courtesy, and respect can rule. That's an area that deserves more than its fair share of attention in the balance.
There are a number of ways in which sexual issues impact pagan religious paths in a way that are different from the more usual patterns in the Abrahamic and other spiritual paths that may be more familiar to mainstream readers and institutions.
We tend (for the most part) to pride ourselves on being sex-positive. We value sexuality as an integral part our our spiritual paths, and there is generally a wide tolerance of many different sexual practices.
Yet when allegations of sexual misconduct become public, there's an opportunity for an abuser to present a victim as being out of step with more liberal community sexual mores.
We lack the wide network of community or institutional affiliations that could motivate or enforce behavior in a community context. If the local HP abuses coveners, there isn't always a tradition head or council to appeal to, or to enforce community standards.
A tradition's elders, a group like COG, or a yearly local gathering could ban someone. But if a sexual offender is not part of those communities, and word can't otherwise get around for legitimate fear of libel concerns, the offender is free to just move on somewhere else to new victims.
A tremendous proportion of the Pagan population learns its religous practice from books rather than face-to-face with other practitioners. When
these solitaries finally encounter other Pagans in the flesh, there may be clashes of assumptions that the participants don't have the templates to deal with.
Better than attempting to create a central Pagan warehouse of rumors, accusations, and criminal records, just your basic communication will suffice while using the systems and records already accessible to all.
Heck, one guy contacted me through WV and it wasn't anything specific he said at all but he gave me the willies. Found him within 2 minutes on the registered sex offender list (online). Ick.
I wasn't in touch with my intuition like that until I got an education unlike any I'd had in school or college.
Also, the legal system is what I’d call the lowest common denominator (LCD) in that it only tells us the minimum that we have manage.
That brings me to this...
Education works best and is response-able, reactive, and proactive -- it builds the cognitive appraisal that helps keep people safe. It really does start in the home with things such as work ethic, respect other people's property/space/person, no means no, honest healthy sex education is crucial, character matters (loved the NNV for that)...
Also, I personally feel that every Pagan should know and teach their children the warning signs of abusers and the types of power as well as logic.
The healthier circles and whole communities are, the easier it is to spot problems in ourselves and others -- good common ground that any religion can share.
That's what I think of when I hear of concerns such as Carol's or "Why not excellence?"
Sari0009, I wasn't calling for "Better than attempting to create a central Pagan warehouse of rumors, accusations, and criminal records."
It isn't something we can, or should do as a community.
But not all the readers of this conversation here are Pagan (or well-informed Pagans),and I thought it would be a good idea to briefly mention some of the points where we differ from mainstream religions.
Most people know that when a member of the Christian clergy is accused of doing something wrong, there are established channels through which a complaint gets lodged and dealt with (at least in theory). We don't generally have that. In this case nobody can complain to the Archbishop of the Church and School of Wicca --
Gavin Frost is the Archbishop of the tradition.
Thanks for clarifying, Carol.
Wouldn't worry too much. I'm going to put faith into community awareness and ability to discern and learn. While there will be those who care for the Frosts for a variety of reasons, few are going to buy his arguments that people who object to his authority/passages only:
* Have their mind in the midden.
* May be psychopaths.
* May have two digit IQ's.
* Fail to grasp the roots of puberty rites, due to the above shortcomings (inferred).
* Tend to be two sorts of people -- those who need to pump up their egos or those who stand to gain financially
Merely about puberty rites, my foot! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Emotional intelligence is just as important, and sometimes more so.
Looking at the Power and Control Wheels to see just how many areas are involved when protecting such ugliness, it seems they erred by:
* Using children. Check. Though no victims of actual rituals seem to exist, the written word is not without its ramifications. They crossed the line into what many consider to be pedophilia (if only by written word) and in doing so, they broke trust, trust being a powerful axis in life.
* Using (social/other) circle. Check.
* Using status as a supposed authority, as a Pagan elder, as one of supposedly superior IQ, and as one possessing superior knowledge in his field. Check.
* Being emotionally abusive (see above list). Check. Two wrongs do not make a right.
* Abusive ideas (the written word is not without accountability just because it's compared to the horror of abusive deeds) regarding sex/sexuality. Check.
* Ridiculing Beliefs. Check. Not everyone will agree that burning the Frosts in effigy is the same as attempted murder, only on a psychic level.
* Threats & Intimidation. Check. Threatens to make people who object to his passages and authority look like pathetic ignorant sickos. Everyone has their faults, some blaring, but...here he went too far and he’s defending something that was wrong, wrong, wrong on so many levels.
Balance.
I feel...this whole mess just is illustrative of the crucial role that knowledge outside of the spiritual/religious field of expertise may play...or not.
And once again people jump on a band wagon they know nothing about.. you people talk big but you know ABSOLUTELY nothing about the Frosts. I suggest before you go flapping your gums you take time to learn BOTH sides of the issue. I have known Gavin and Yvonne Frost for 15 years, i know there past and what they have done for our community.. I need not to have my ego pumped.. If you would like to know there side of the story i suggest you read there interview with Ellen Everrett Hopman in her book.. People of the Earth the New Pagans Speak out.. also check out there website www.churchandschoolofwicca.com
Neither what the Frosts did for the community, which is substantial, nor their problematic passages are wiped out. Both clearly (!) exist.
Don't have to know the Frosts personally to realize that. Their good deeds are there for all to see on many web pages, some of which were mentioned here.
Rather than chalking up so much to "flapping the lips," at least consider that, in the mix, community is having the faith to turn to itself to learn a variety of lessons and not merely to bash various parties.
This is especially important in communities who recognize no Popes or central required doctrines/texts.
This is especially important in religious communities that perhaps strive not to be overly dependent on religious, magical, or ritual knowledge to the point of harmful imbalance.
The whole darn problem could be solved by a well-written disclaimer in the front of the Frosts' book.
In the old days, our ancestors used to do all sorts of things, that if judged by today's standards, are reprehensible. Gutting someone and nailing their innards to a tree -- Celts. Cutting an enemy down the back and pulling out their lungs (eagle wings) -- Saxons. Opening someone's belly and shoveling in the hot coals -- Western Native Americans. Sexual Initiation of virgins -- West Country Britons and Anglo-Saxons. Stuffing live cats under the floor of a new construction -- ditto. Sacrificing human children -- Aztecs. Cursing and hexing -- just about every society. Yep, us Pagans did it.
Not something to be proud of. Not something to emulate. Certainly not something to suggest as a modern rite. But face it, fluffybunnies, our ancestors weren't all about whitesy-lightsy positive good magick. Let's acknowledge that these atrocities were part of our cultures, and then MOVE ON to the practices we find acceptable in the present. Not burn anyone in effigy for writing about it (although a good water-ballooning or paint-balling in effigy might be fun).
P.S. You can write about this subject all you want to, it happened, BUT if anyone even THINKS about actually sexually initiating a young woman at menarche, then I'm gonna revert to the practices of my Celtic and Anglo ancestors.
I'm going to put faith into community awareness and ability to discern and learn.
I'm not so optimistic about that. So far over the years the community's been pretty silent about the value of teachers offering instructions for father-daughter incest in the name of Wicca, or inviting another adult male to sexually abuse a child with a dildo in her home.
I did have to chuckle at the Frosts' June 2003 letter that sari0009 linked, castigating people who "have a financial stake in dragging down old leaders," right after saying they'll respond to letters "itemeing" [sic] their errors if donations are enclosed.
"Though no victims of actual rituals seem to exist, the written word is not without its ramifications. They crossed the line into what many consider to be pedophilia (if only by written word) and in doing so, they broke trust, trust being a powerful axis in life."
No one can say that no victims exist. It simply is unknown at present whether anyone followed the Frosts's detailed instructions for sexually initiating a child into their brand of Wicca.
If some of us are fools for not taking the Frosts' words at face value, it's just as possible that some of their claimed 40,000 students are fools who read the disclaimer that for the formal initiation one should be 18, and figured it would be okay for Daddy or his fellow covener to do the dildo thing informally at a younger age.
We just don't know at present.
You cannot identify abusers just by looking at them. They aren't all lonely losers with poor social skills. Some of them are well-loved members of the community, with positions of responsibility that bring them respect. You might work with them, be related to them, circle with them, and not know.
In the same way, you cannot identify children who are survivors of childhood abuse just by looking at them. They don't all act out. Sometimes they will not be ready to deal with their childhood abuse until they are adults themselves. Sometimes they will not deal with their abuse until after their abuser is dead. Shame and pain are such an integral part of the abuse process that many survivors never are comfortable publicly discussing what happened to them. You might work with them, be related to them, circle with them, and not know.
Fact check needed please -- the Good Witch's Bible appears to be in its 7th edition. In which edition does a disclaimer first appear that renounces both incest and sexual initiation of children by a coven? What is the wording of that disclaimer? Has it changed over the years?
Perhaps the conversation will be a bit calmer if namecalling like "fluffybunnies" and insults like "flapping your gums" are avoided.
Carol: I didn't say that there had been a disclaimer to the Frosts' book, I suggested that one be added, stating that oldline practices aren't always appropriate in present times. The Frosts claim an oldline witchcraft heritage. Why, then, is everyone so surprised when they write of oldline practices?
Rhiannon Ryall wrote about the same practice in "West Country Wicca", as apparently she was on the receiving end of such an initiation. It's something which the old folks did. NO, I'm not condoning it, any more than I would agree to stuff a live kitty under the floor of a new building. But these really were rites performed in the early days of modern Wicca / late days of hereditary witchcraft. It's part of our heritage. Denying that it happened is dishonest. Acknowledge the negative, confront the dark.
Thank Goddess for the Rede, eh? It sure cleaned up witchcraft.
"Fluffybunny", Adjective -- One who is under the delusion that ancestral witchcraft was always nice, kindly, appropriate to modern times and considerate of ethics, and operating under the Rede. Witchcraft has been around since time immemorial. The Rede has been around since approx. 1950. If the fuzzy white cotton tail fits, wear it.
PS: If there really were Frost abuse victims, rather than just a theoretical discussion of oldline practices, howcome none of said victims have come forward? They have had thirty-five years to speak out. Or sue the Frosts into oblivion. Howcome no one has done so?
Wow. A lot of feelings running high on both sides here. I have a lot of perspectives on this topic I am trying to integrate.
I am a gay man who was sexually assaulted by a neighbor girl around the age of 12 or 13.
One of my dear friends is an incest survivor who came to Paganism as an adult.
Another of my dear friends is a sex offender who has served his time and seeks in every action to atone for what he did. He is active in his UU church and the Pagan community and is quite open about his history... his minister knows, as do the congregants and others in his Pagan community and ...whatever the UU call their individual church board - deacons? He is up front about this an is -rightly- under a constant scrutiny.
I don't actually know either of these parties personally, I have looked through both parties works in the past in book stores and at friends houses... I came to the offending passages in a copy of "Good Witches Bible" was promptly sickened and have never wished to re-aquaint myself. I thumbed through some of Mr. Drews works and was not drawn to them (although this was about 5 or 7 years into my studies and I reached that point where I just got tired of reading the latest books because so many of them seemed to be rehashing stuff)
The FACTS, regarding the Frosts, as I understand them are...
They are Elders within the community.
Their book is still in print in new editions, with these offensive passages still intact.
The Frosts have NEVER repudiated or retracted their instructions...
They are looking into sueing Mr. Drew.
Since, their book contains direct instructions for sexual abuse and incest and as such materials are illegal in the U.S. their book may very well be banned (designated as child pornogrophy) and they could be put in jail or fined.
The FACTS regarding Mr. Drew, as I understand them.
He is an author of a number of books.
He is intending to sacrifice them in effigy, because of their abhorrent and never repudiated views on pagan sexuality.
(still trying to check out his blog and or site... methinks that either a computer savy friend or disciple of the Frosts has hacked it, or that enough Pagans are trying to find out WTF on this issue that Drew's blog server is freaking out)
_________________________
It seems to me that Drews actions are part genuine outrage and part acting out. Why he's acting out I don't know but there is something a little too dramatic of declaring a proxy sacrifice and starting ones own tradition at a community event....
It also seems to me that any trouble that falls the Frosts way in this situation would be the rule of 3, or karma, bitting them on the butt for their irresponsible and possibly wilfully criminal writtings.
My $0.02,
Peace,
Pax
I too wondered why no victims have yet come forward. When one does, it's going to be an even worse time to be in front of the fan. I too think that the Frosts should put a disclaimer in the book, and on their website if they have one.
Don't buy the book until they do. If you want to destroy effigies, do what an earlier commentor said, label then "pedophilia" and "those who let it happen."
If I was a young girl, I'd not want anyone else's hand wielding that dilator but MINE.
Magick is not always spells and candles.
For 30 some odd years, the Frosts have been befriended and promoted by such folk as Janet and Stewart Farrar, Isaac Bonewitz, Patricia Telesco, Raymond Buckland, and the list goes on. After a long heartfelt discussion with Raymond Buckland, who was about to endorse a book by the Frosts, I caused Dr. Buckland to reconsider and withdraw his endorsement. Per Dr. Buckland, it was not until my antics that he became aware that the Frosts continued to sell The Good Witches Bible with its content. In short, the antics that many have chosen to attack have had the positive effect of removing at least the endorsement of Dr. Raymond Buckland. That alone is worth every effort thus far. Now it is I who am causing this discussion of the Frost’s and their obscenity.
Pagan Pride festivals still promote Gavin and Yvonne Frost as does Starwood, Sirius Rising, Brushwood, and other festivals / organizations. Patricia Telesco has posted joyful articles to The Witches Voice about the Frost’s activities at pagan events along with children’s activities. A special letter of outreach to parents of children interested in Wicca has been issued by the Frosts. Despite the fact that the FBI raided a chartered organization of Gavin and Yvonne’s Church and School of Wicca to discover under aged sex and drugs, despite the fact that much of their book is quoted again and again for anybody to read:
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation....st-please-read/
Despite all of this, Gavin and Yvonne Frost continue to be promoted, befriended, and held in very high esteem by members of the pagan community. That is not my will & thus I shall use magick to cause change in conformity with my will. I quote Aleister Crowley from Magick in Theory and Practice:
"It is my Will to inform the World of certain facts within my knowledge. I therefore take 'magical weapons', pen, ink, and paper; I write 'incantations'--these sentences--in the 'magical language' i.e., that which is understood by the people I wish to instruct; I call forth 'spirits', such as printers, publishers, booksellers, and so forth, and constrain them to convey my message to these people. The composition and distribution of this book is thus an act of magick by which I cause Changes to take place in conformity with my Will."
I have tried contacting organizations, which promote the Frosts. They have ignored me. I have tried to contact the Frosts themselves, they have ignored me. I have tried contacting the authors who promote them. With the exception of Dr. Raymond Buckland (bless you sir), they have ignored me, favoring to continue their friendship with the Frosts business as usual. I believe that is the core of the matter; business.
I have been advised by the owner of my last publisher against making waves because he believes I have harmed my book sales by doing so. I have since discontinued any communication with New Page Books. I have been adv
Oh, so the FBI *did* find something? Where does one read the official record? (not familiar with such searches in that area) What was done about it then? What happened to the kids? Have survivors of the initiation rituals come forth anywhere, obviously damaged or otherwise? If enough of us got together and just asked the Frosts for a disclaimer, would they finally wise up?
And how come the A.J. Drew website keeps freezing my browser, so I can't refresh my memory of what was actually in that book?
As a molestation survivor I want this gotten-to-the-bottom-of. One way or t'other. If a whole bunch of people think the Frosts are great, that still doesn't mean it is true...as someone else said, one Aw-@#$% wipes out a whole bunch of Attaboys.
Hey folks, I finally got through to Drew's DeFrost blog entry (I think it's an Explorer vs Firefox issue cause it came up like buttah on Firefox) Please read the below
____________
DeFrost - Please Read
My name is A.J. Drew:
If you believe doing so will help my cause, please forward the url of this blog entry to every News Service and Law Enforcement Agency that you believe will take an interest.
I am the author of several titles intended for members of the modern pagan and heathen community, most notably A Wiccan Bible. I am the founder of Pagan Nation (www.PaganNation.com), however in taking this action I am speaking only for myself.
I believe Gavin and Yvonne Frost, founders of the Church and School of Wicca and authors of The Witches Bible as it was published in 1972 and as A Good Witches Bible as it is currently available, and the Church and School of Wicca should be immediately and forever more boycotted by the Wiccan, Pagan, and Heathen communities. I further believe they should be investigate by law enforcement agencies of the United States Government, all US States in which the Church and School of Wicca has operated, and in any country in which it has operated.
It is my opinion, that there is an enormous amount of evidence which indicates that The Church and School of Wicca, a 501 c 3 tax exempt organization, as established by Gavin and Yvonne Frost has been openly involved in the promotion of the molestation and rape of children as early as the onset of puberty. It is my opinion that their book, The Witches Bible and it’s republication as A Good Witches Bible, provides the basis for this belief.
It is my opinion that there have been numerous victims of the Church and School of Wicca. That due to the enormous emotional strain such events have placed on these individuals, many of them have found themselves in the “Satanic Panic Industry” and have been overlooked due to their outrageous claims.
However, after the careful study of:
Investigators Guide to Allegations of Ritual Child Abuse
Behavioral Science Unit, National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime, Federal Bureau of Investigation, FBI Academy, Quantico, Virginia 22135 (1992) by Kenneth V. Lanning.
Investigator’s Guide
I believe there is truth behind many of the seemingly outrageous claims. I further believe that perhaps with the goal of financial gain, members of the modern pagan community have made efforts not only to promote both the Frosts and their Church / School, but to discredit those who have made allegations against them. This includes very well known individuals, authors, publishers and incorporations whose annual collective revenue would seem staggering if it were publicly known.
I am prepared to assist properly identified Law Enforcement and News Agencies to bring this matter to light in the hopes of protecting my children and improving the world in which they live. I believe this is my responsibility as a pagan father
The Church and School of Wicca granted numerous charters (what was the protocol) and I think the one referred to in a recent comment here was the one granted to John Todd, an evangelist (yes, things can get weirder and weirder).
It was Todd who used the charter as a front for acts of statutory rape.
Oh look at this.
"Following an investigation of Todd's activities by neopagan leaders Isaac Bonewits and Gavin Frost, which uncovered drug use and underage sex, Frost's Church and School of Wicca revoked the charter it had granted to Todd's coven." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joh...dd_(evangelist)
Hello All,
Hey Sari, thank you for citing the Wikipedia article showing that pedophiles have used the Frost's teachings and church as a front in the past!
If you read the main Wikipedia article on the Church and School of Wicca...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Chu...School_of_Wicca
The wikipedia entry for the Frosts church lists pedophelia as part of the churches teaching under the Controversy listing, citing the Good Witches Bible as a source...
In re-reading this comment stream I find myself wondering if a victim had come forward what sore of reception would she or he recieve...
Peace,
Pax
Yes. I read that page, Pax.
What the Frosts wrote is an indefensible piece of (written form) of pedophilia. True. Not only that but their retort to strong objections and criticisms is insulting to their intelligence as well as that of others.
When founders of Churches and/or religious schools self-sabotage to this degree, then whole communities or even whole movements suffer. That much is obvious.
While writing passages about adults deflowering children is truly heinous, it's possible that it was understood that nobody was supposed to actually do it and perhaps no one carried out the rituals.
They do look guilty writing such things though, I will give you that.
However, the fact remains that no victims have come forward that anyone can name, quote, and so on. Yet or ever remains to be seen and this discussion cannot match due process.
Also, the rates of child rape and incest are so high that the chances are that will will find victims of that in any religion, even if the rituals described were not the vehicle of abuse. This also does not mean that there were victims of these deflowering rituals or not.
Hmmm, i'd be willing to be that if any victim came forward they'd get a variety of responses, but mostly compassion if their story were true.
The whole sex-positive movement in the Pagan community is about healthy sex, and pedophilia isn't that.
People claiming to be the victims of the Church and School of Wicca HAVE come forward, they have said they were initiated by their parents, and they have been dismissed by the pagan community as nut cases because they have reportedly been investigated and found to be nut cases. The thing is, the investigations seem to have been conducted by Gavin Frost and Isaac Bonewitz (friend to the Frosts and assisted in designing their web site). So, your honor, it is OK I am innocent. You see me and my buddy investigated my actions.
Wake Up!
The Frosts are promoted by Pagan Pride, Starwood, Sirius Rising, Brushwood, and other events. They are promoted by Patricia Telesco, Isaac Bonewitz, and other leading authors. Even Janet and Stewart Farrar made a video with Gavin Frost in which they called each other friends for decades.
My plan to sacrifice them in effigy at this year's International Real Witches Ball will bring attention to this. People who do not know, will know. They will no longer be able to hide the monsters that they are and those who supported them these many years will be shown for the money minded self promoting business as usual authors and organizations that they are.
Quotes from the Frost's book:
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation....st-please-read/
“When a child develops to a stage where the physical attributes of reproduction are present, he can become a full member of the coven.”
Note: That is about 9 or 10 in some boys and girls. Girls more than boys.
“The parents relinquish the spiritual guidance of the children to the coven, and warn them that temporal authority will also soon be outside the family. “
“It is hoped by Wicca that the first full sexual experience will take place in the plesant[SIC] surroundings of the coven and that the spiritual as well as the physical aspects of the experience will lead the child to a complete life. ”
“The physical attributes of male and female virginity are destroyed at the youngest possible age, either by the mother or by a doctor. In the female case, the hymen is painlessly broken surgically. In the male case, the mother makes absolutely sure that the foreskin can be drawn fully back by cutting the underside attachment membrane.”
“At the last sabbat or eshbat before the initiation, the female novice is given the sacred phallus and the instruction sheet in Table 5 so that she can learn to insert and remove the phallus quickly and comfortably. She is also taught how she should lie and what she should do during the initiation ceremony. ”
“You have been entrusted with two phali[SIC]; these are in your care until your initiation. We would like you to be initiated at the next coven meeting, which will take place on …. This means that, excluding your menstruation time, you have three weeks to prepare your muscles for introitus. Your father or your sponsor will help you if you have any difficulties or pain. You may have to delay your initiation, but there is plenty of time and no need to hurry. These are important development phases. Relax and take your time. You have no hymen; there is no restriction except the vaginal muscles.”
There is more, visit the link to read it all.
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation....st-please-read/
Fact, they wrote it.
Fact, they taught it.
Fact, their chartered church was raided for it.
Wicca and the modern pagan community is a beautiful religion and path litered by these folk and your blog is litered by their supporters, who continue to polute your mind with lies and misleading information.
"People...HAVE come forward...have been dismissed by the pagan community as nut cases because they have reportedly been investigated and found to be nut cases...the investigations seem to have been conducted by Gavin Frost and Isaac Bonewitz..."
It's more than good form to provide sources and at least basic information that actually support and illustrate your serious claims -- doing so is crucial to your credibility and the community's ability too examine such information in addition to the offending text.
1. Can you provide credible sources that discuss specific incidents of people coming forward? Any names of investigators? Anything?
2. Investigations lead by Gavin Frost and Isaac Bonewits do not preclude formal investigations. Are you assuming that there were no formal investigations, or do you know that to be a fact and if so, please provide appropriate credible sources and basic information that illustrates the facts you claim.
The text, as much as I find it offending, does not provide the answers to the two questions and it does not convict as much as it may spark personal convictions.
AJ: I thank you for bringing this issue up, as I was unaware of it. That was a service to the community.
However...
Whatever you do to sacrifice the Frosts in effigy in private would have been foolish. Doing something like that at a public ritual is the height of irresponsibility.
You appear to be having a hard enough time keeping calm and focused when you are writing about this (yes, I've seen the postings on your forum). Doing a public ritual could be a very harmful experience. I think it would whip up energy that you have not shown yourself able to guide or control.
Please, AJ. Don't do it.
Both Gavin and Yvonne sport a "DD" after their names. Yvonne's earned degree is an AA, a two-year degree from a course in Secretary Skills at Fullerton Junior College in 1962.
In the UK a DD is the highest ranked doctorate given by universities. However, in the US a Doctor of Divinity degree is only an honorary degree.
What university gave Gavin and Yvonne matching honorary doctorates?
It's not just the ritual energy Drew needs to guide...
We understand the Frosts' "bible" gets into some of the sickest stuff. I agree that it is a community service to bring that to our attention.
It's not a community service to bring additional and very serious accusations regarding actual unnamed victims for which there is no information or sources for the information.
Shoving the offensive Frost "bible" passages in our faces in lieu of any information or (preferably credible) sources isn't going to suffice.
Also, mentioning that you're donating proceeds to causes that benefit abused children does not alone indicate that your motivations are pure.
If money were the only motivator to consider in the world, then Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy wouldn't exist.
Unless you can answer the questions like mine (in comment 80 here, I think it is) that your accuasations will understandable raise, I think you would have made a stronger statement to simply address the issue of the horribly sick passages in the Frosts' "bible."
People claiming to be the victims of the Church and School of Wicca HAVE come forward, they have said they were initiated by their parents, and they have been dismissed by the pagan community as nut cases because they have reportedly been investigated and found to be nut cases. The thing is, the investigations seem to have been conducted by Gavin Frost and Isaac Bonewitz (friend to the Frosts and assisted in designing their web site). So, your honor, it is OK I am innocent. You see me and my buddy investigated my actions.
The material quoted here doesn't support your version. The Wikipedia article shows that John Todd was kicked out of the C&SoW when his illegal activities were discovered by Isaac Bonewits (Wikipedia has the courtesty of spelling his name correctly) and Gavin Frost. Not, oh gee it was a rigged investigation, as you imply, but an investigation that, having uncovered impropriety, took appropriate action. As linked to here.
And this was over twenty-five years ago. No one else has come forward, not even that you allege except in vague "In my opinion there are many" terms.
And the one person who did come forward complained not about the Frosts but about Todd.
Let's be very clear. There are heinous people in the world who molest children, and there are the majority of us who would never do such a thing.
Some of those monstrous people might be interested in finding justification in print for their actions. There is no evidence that any child molestor ever became a child molestor because of reading about it. They are sick bastards, and maybe they use something in print to justify their sickness. Usually not. The rest of us don't molest children no matter what we read.
So, although I strongly object to what the Frosts published, I do not believe it makes them responsible for any third party who may molest a child and use the text as justification. It just doesn't work that way.
Every religious organization will have evil people as members if it becomes large enough. EVERY one. That includes the C&SoW, the Catholic Church, ADF, Judaism, Native Americans, Jehovahs Witnesses, EVERYONE. The existence of bad people in an organization doesn't condemn the organization. How the organization responds to it is what matters.
In the case of John Todd, it seems that Gavin responded appropriately in a way that brings him credit. Yet you are trying to use it to tar him, which is distortion.
I have ever only done one "investigation" with Gavin Frost about anything at all. It was the case of John Todd, a.k.a. Lance Collins, in Dayton Ohio. Todd had gotten a church charter from the Frosts, something that they were handing out like candy in those days (the 1970s) because they wanted to provide legal protection to covens, much as the Covenant of the Goddess and the Aquarian Tabernacle Church did (and do). Todd claimed the Dayton Police were harrassing him and his business and asked the Church and School of Wicca and my Aquarian Anti-Defamation League to investigate.
During our investigation, which involved the two of us flying to Dayton and talking to local Pagans, members of the C&SoW, and local law enforcement agencies, we discovered that (a) Todd was grossly ignorant about Wicca (mainstream and Frostian), that (b) he had an unusual relationship with the local FBI (probably as an informant), that (c) his supposed occult store was a front for attracting teenaged girls from a nearby high school, and that (d) he had a past as a Christian evangelist who was wanted for defrauding Christian churches.
We held a local press conference to announce that he was not a Wiccan of any variety and that he was not being discriminated against.
That's it. I have never met anyone who claimed to have been initiated as a child into a Frostian coven, using that damned passage in the book, nor have I ever been asked to "investigate" such a claim. As far as I know, members of the Church and School of Wicca are forbidden to commit any crimes in connection with their religion.
Can I prove that no reader of the Frost's book has ever committed a crime? Of course not. Can I prove that AJ Drew is an attention-seeking liar out to slander other Pagans for his own financial benefit? That wouldn't be too difficult.
As for us Pagan authors getting rich on our books, that's the most absurd fantasy of all, as AJ Drew should know. The only ones who get rich in the publishing industry are the publishers, the distributors, and the big book chains. I have zero financial motivation to hide criminals in the Pagan movement.
AJ, may the Gods bless you with all that you truly deserve.
In reading through the comments people are worried about the *Power To Cause Harm* by burning in effigy, but have no concern at all about the *Power To Cause Harm* from words written in a book.
Do words have Power or don't they?
****
Nothing has happened yet, no victim has come forward, it's only words, they shouldn't be responsible for what they put out into the world.
That line of reasoning is very strange to see from people who claim Wicca as thier religion.
****
This book has been through many editions, there have been many opportunities for the message from two well-known and respected Elders to be changed. They haven't changed it.
For those who know the Frosts so well...why haven't they taken it out? Why is it so important to them to keep sending this out into the world?
'Nothing has happened yet, no victim has come forward, it's only words, they shouldn't be responsible for what they put out into the world."
That's not the line of reasoning shown through the course of comments here.
So Deborah, Isaac -- where are the Frosts' DD degrees from?
The Frosts have apparently responded May of 2007
http://www.wicca.org/
gavinandyvo...teaser0507.html
Some of the highlights include apparent attacks against Gerald Gardner and hidden attacks against Dr. Raymond Buckland by discounting and discrediting statements that Dr. Buckland has made concerning history and the history of Wicca. In short, they seem to label anyone who disagrees with them Christo-Pagan/Wiccans. I take this as meaning because my wife and I are monogamous and do not want our children raped when they hit puberty, then we are Christian and not true Wiccan.
Noting that this apparent response was issued in May of 2007, please note their reference to the content of The Witches Bible.
“People simply cannot comprehend what a partnership way of life would be like. And the moment you suggest that a physician snip a girl's hymen so that her first sexual experience won't be bloody, painful, and traumatic, the moment you suggest the tiny snip of the membrane that holds the foreskin to the glans[SIC] that would let the young male have an equally pleasant first sexual experience, in that moment all the self-appointed christo-pW's scream in unison, "Mutilation!" "Child molest!" “
Note they said a “girl’s hymen” and the foreskin of a “young man” in preparation for their “first sexual experience”. Note that this is a reference to their 1972 book which seems to be clear that we are speaking about children as early as the age of 10, that those children are to have sex as part of an initiation circle, and that in the case of females multiple sized home made dildos are used to get them ready (with the help of their father in some cases) for that sexual initiation / rape.
Quotes from the Frosts book are here:
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation....st-please-read/
Note most importantly that they issued this in May of 2007! They remain in defiant support of that book. They continue to sell it. They continue to promote it.
I could address the other many misdirection and down right lies in their statement, like:
“In 1968, The Church and School of Wicca was the first organization to use the word Wicca to name its spiritual path.”
Ah and now they have launched a blog where they have announced:
"The Church and School of Wicca is the only true Wiccan church..."
http://gavinandyvonne.blogspot.com/
Now for the real hoot. They seem intent on suing me in England for things I said in Ohio about they who also live in the United States because they like English law better. Uh what? Not worried here as I will defend myself in a country which still puts people for what they have done. Obviously, it doesn’t work that way. But it is funy to joke about it.
I thought I would be in this battle alone, but they seem hell bent on driving folk to my side. De-Frost ! These people have gotta go.
Ongoing discussion is at: http://PaganNation.com
Blessed be and live free,
A.J. Drew
I was once asked by a mother and her daughter if I could sit down and talk with them about witchcraft, as the daughter had shown interest and the mother did not know much about it. I was so impressed that they were able to talk so openly about it with each other. So, we met for coffee and chatted. When we got to talking about books, the daughter mentioned "a witch's bible" that her father (divorced and living apart from her and her mother) had recommended to her. I asked her what color the cover was, and she said white, which is the cover of the Frosts' bible. I told her right up front that I did not recommend nor endorse that book in any manner, and that if ANYONE ever told her she needed to provide them with either money or sex for teaching, TO GET AWAY FAST.
Needless to say, I was appalled that a father would recommend that book to his daughter. Disgusted. Concerned. But, I did all that I could do, which was to provide my warnings. I can only hope that she and her mother understood my concern.
I am glad to see someone in the community brining such attention to this important matter. Our silence allows these "teachings" to persist, and those who do not truly know us are free to assume that we all support such hideous ideas. Bring it out into the light, I say!
Carol, I have no idea where their DDs are from. My guess would be the Universal Life Church, source of 90% of the DDs in the Neopagan movement (I have one from them myself).
Carol, I have never asked the Frosts about their degrees. Has your question any relevance to the current discussion?
Gavins degrees were aquired at Kings College University of London.. Yvonnes was at Fullerton Junior College in California.. as to the DD does it really matter
As an incest survivor (in a then Christian family), I strongly feel that A.J. Drew mocked survivors of pedophilia.
He got people's attention because of the seriousness of the topic but then he inflamed through deception, gross distortions, partial quotes, and so on -- that's was ultimately more important to him.
"Crazy making" is a term used to describe emotional manipulators of a specific sort. (There are stark behavioral similarities between crazy makers and those who purge others politically for less than truly noble reasons.)
The real red flags that crazy makers raise are that they operate through confusion and overwhelming you in a variety of ways…but ultimately do not educate (in this case, that would be about pedophilia and healthy boundaries) but turn anything said or done around in their favor, especially when confronted honestly. That Drew was doing this was amazingly clear to me by the 90th haloscan comment here.
Communication is a layered function sometimes and what happened (which is now spread across the wildhunt blog entry, the Frosts blogspot blog, and A.J. Drew’s pages) was a prime example.
Get your troll-o-meters on!
If one wants to better the Pagan community, I much prefer Virginia Satir’s models of change and Five Freedoms to Drew’s morass of meddling manipulations.
Sorry, the link for troll-o-meter is http://everything2.org/index.pl?...?
node_id=518196.
Also as far as Mr Drew is Concerned i dont know if one can size up an individual in this manner. but i suggest you check out Isaacs Cult Evaluation Frame. Gods willing this whole sorted mess will be over soon. I really want to see a strong pagan community. but Bs like this surely weakens it
Or it makes it stronger because of how we handle it and what we learn/relearn.
As I have never publicly discussed the details of the rite, I would have to say that it is the bloggers and rumor mill that have done those things you have thus accused me of.
In so far as partial quotes, I have provided as much as my lawyer says I can under the Fair Use clause of US copyright law, however here is a site that goes further:
http://www.freewebs.com/controve...B/
ChapterIV.htm
Here is a link to Gavin Frost defending this work, showing that he still endorces such crimes against children.
http://www.wicca.org/
gavinandyvo...teaser0507.html
So then, I have not detailed the rite but I am villified. Gavin Frost has detailed the tourture, molestation, and rape of children and he is defended.
Interesting
The Frosts' DD degrees that they list?
It's been one of my interests in the many years I've been online. I don't mean the "attractive, and only 10 pounds overweight" lies that I hear are rampant in the personals ads -- that's too common, and subjective.
What intrigues me is the way people portray themselves using credentials that they feel will enhance their perceived expertise, and how that compares with the reality of their lives.
I've seen job title inflation, bullshit credentials, memberships in what look like professional societies that your parakeet could join, and outright fraudulent claims. I'm interested in what it says about character, especially when there are some disparities at a closer look.
Isaac's got the very coolest degree in all of Pagandom, his BA in Magic and Thaumaturgy. So while he may have a $29.99 bullshit DD that you can buy from the Universal Life Church, he doesn't need one, and he doesn't use it in his bios. Isaac guesses the Universal Life Church DD degrees are the source of 90% of the DD degrees in the Neo-Pagan community, and guesses that Gavin's and Yvonne's are from there too. I'll take that as a given then, since the Frosts don't say. But what other Big Name Pagans use them as a credential? (I ask that as an open-ended question, merely to see how common routine use of it in our community is.)
Gavin's got some very respectable credentials, rising from a B.Sc. at King's College London, to a Ph.d from the same institution. The graph goes up, and up, and then ... PLOP! He throws the little Cracker Jacks prize in after it.
Yvonne's credential path is a little more jagged. She starts out with her Associate of Arts in secretarial skills at a junior college in California, a formal career path for women that was unsurprising in the early sixties. Then a great leap to a Doctor of Divinity. On the fast track, or credential inflation? Will people think more of her because they know she at least has an earned two year college degree? Because she's a Big Name Pagan, would an otherwise unexplained AA in conjunction with a DD imply Astrum Argentum? It's anybody's guess.
In my opinion, use of Universal Life Church degrees as credentials you present to the public is both dishonest and crass.
Mr. Drew, if we're gonna start banning books, here are a couple more.
_Sacajawea_ by James Alexander Thom. Describes Sacajawea's capture as a slave during childhood, her sexual abuse by an elder in the family who purchased her, and her being sold at age 14 to a fur trader named Charboneau, who had several teenage wives.
_Friday_ by Robert A. Heinlein. Describes the main character's "doxy" training to be a sexual plaything as a young girl being raised in a "creche" or baby mill. Also _Time Enough For Love_, where the main character clones himself and has sexual relations with the two female clones when they are still virgins.
_Clan of the Cave Bear_ by Jean M. Auel. Describes the main character's rape at age 9, which resulted in conception. In fact, all of the "Earth's Children" series describes possible oldline sexual rituals and practices, many of which involved young people, including "initiating" virgins.
_Roots_ by Alex Haley. Describes how slave owners used young women for their sexual pleasure.
While we're at it, there are hundreds of mystery / crime / thriller novels where the antagonist rapes and kills his young victims, science fiction books where the characters explore various types of sexuality in theoretical societies, and mainstream novels that describe sexual practices, including those amongst various real-life societies.
Let's not forget all the anthropology texts that speak of sexual initiations, including using the "matrika" dolls (goddess figures or Venus figures) as objects to perforate a hymen, or used ritual phalli to initiate a virgin. Yeah, these objects really existed, anthopologists have found 'em, made of bone or wood or ivory or even chalk. But we shouldn't talk about that, we shouldn't read about that, should we? Because somebody might get ideas, let's censor or outright ban all these books, alright?
I'm not condoning these practices by any means. In fact, somebody does this to my kids, they gonna be in a world of hurt. BUT, I think I am smart enough, and balanced enough, to read about the sexual practices actually performed by our ancestors, by oldline Pagans, and to make up my own mind. I think I'm capable of reading about it in a fiction book without having a total freakout. I find it irksome that Mr. Drew, or anyone else, presume to censor what I can or cannot choose to read.
Ain't that what some of the radical Christian right people wish to do with the "Harry Potter" series?
I agree with whoever said Mr. Drew is an attention-seeking bully. This is just his latest pet cause to draw attention to himself, and he will not rest until he appears on some laughable FOX News program ranting about the Frosts.
There is no proof any children have ever been harmed or even endangered by these people. They are in their eighties. Their daughter is a mature well-adjusted woman with a child of her own. Maybe the Frosts are befriended by many upstanding members of the pagan community because, hmm, they are harmless?
This kind of witch hunt crap happening within our own community, based on lies, rumors, gossip and willful interpretation of the facts, really sickens me.
Not condoning the rituals in question either.
However, rather than censor, perhaps discussion of rituals of the past through the lens of time is better done not in a "bible" but in an academic work specifically devoted to the topic of rituals of the past
That way, the topics are out there but are in a more controlled and clearly defined context, and I do think that's necessary in some cases.
Ain't all of us "academics", Sari. A rich man goes to college, a poor man goes to work. Some of us just like to learn stuff by reading, without having the time, energy, or money for an elitist academic environment. That said, the disclaimer is still a really good idea.
Forward to Chapter IV
“This chapter describes some of the more controversial practices of the old path taught in the earliest days of the Church and School of Wicca.”
Note: The book was originally published in 1972 without this forward. When the forward was added and exactly which controversial practices were removed from their teaching is unclear. However, it is my opinion that what follows is so repulsive that nothing Gavin and Yvonne Frost could ever do or say could bring redemption.
“Today many fathers are afraid even to bathe their own children for fear of later lawsuits centered around molestation. In such a social climate it is more difficult then ever before for parents to teach children good sexual information and etiquette; but it is never appropriate for parents to play ostrich, by avoiding the subject.”
Note: The above is part of the defense for what you are about to read. When you read what follows, please remember that the above defense was added in reprints of what you are about to read. In essence, it appears they are stating that one should no longer do to children what they taught previously, because you might be sued. They appear to be comparing what follows to a father giving his children a bath. Once you read what follows, I think you will find their use of sexual education as a defense rather disguesting.
Chapter IV
“When a child develops to a stage where the physical attributes of reproduction are present, he can become a full member of the coven.”
Note the use of the word “child”. As I understand this statement we are speaking about prepubescent / onset of puberty. Perhaps the age of 10.
“The parents relinquish the spiritual guidance of the children to the coven, and warn them that temporal authority will also soon be outside the family. “
Note that according to this statement, it seems what follows would have been led by Gavin and Yvonne Frost as the Heads of their Coven.
“It is hoped by Wicca that the first full sexual experience will take place in the plesant[SIC] surroundings of the coven and that the spiritual as well as the physical aspects of the experience will lead the child to a complete life. ”
Note: Note the use of the word “child” in this sentence. Note also that this sentence appears in the same discussion as the reference to the age being the onset of puberty. Obviously, we are speaking of children well under legal age and apparently about 10 years of age.
“The physical attributes of male and female virginity are destroyed at the youngest possible age, either by the mother or by a doctor. In the female case, the hymen is painlessly broken surgically. In the male case, the mother makes absolutely sure that the foreskin can be drawn fully back by cutting the underside attachment membrane.”
Note: I did not know that home genital surgery was part the Wiccan religion.
“At the last sabbat or eshbat before the initiation, the female novice is given the sacred phallus and t
“At the last sabbat or eshbat before the initiation, the female novice is given the sacred phallus and the instruction sheet in Table 5 so that she can learn to insert and remove the phallus quickly and comfortably. She is also taught how she should lie and what she should do during the initiation ceremony. ”
Note: There are two phalluses. One large, one small. There are instructions for making them using wood dowels, nylon cord, and wax. The object of this exercise appears to be to stretch the virgin vagina to make it ready for coitus. Remember, as we discussed earlier we might be speaking about a 10 year old girl.
Table Five contains the following instructions
“You have been entrusted with two phali[SIC]; these are in your care until your initiation. We would like you to be initiated at the next coven meeting, which will take place on …. This means that, excluding your menstruation time, you have three weeks to prepare your muscles for introitus. Your father or your sponsor will help you if you have any difficulties or pain. You may have to delay your initiation, but there is plenty of time and no need to hurry. These are important development phases. Relax and take your time. You have no hymen; there is no restriction except the vaginal muscles.”
Note: As I understand this, a 10 year old girls father should help her with the home made phalli? In the state of Ohio, this is rape. In any state, this is obscene.
“After your evening discussion and meditation, and before you go to bed, take the smaller phallus and smear it with lubricating jelly. Either lie on your back with your knees up and legs slightly apart, or stand up and bend your knees. Spread the lips of the vagina and gently insert the phallus. Remember it must point toward the back, not up inside you. Push the phallus in until the vaginal entrance muscles close around the core. Wear it and the larger phallus in accordance with the following table, except during menstruation.”
Note: The table provides the time and schedule to use the two devices of differing sizes.
“The final three days before the initiation are a time of fasting. ”
Note: The importance of fasting will become evident later.
“Throughout the fast the novices are given a demonstration of introitus by a couple selected by the coven. “
Note: As I understand this passage, this states that a live sex show should be given to children as early as the age of 10 years of age.
“The novice makes her own decision on contraception or lack of it.”
Note: As I understand this statement, children the age of 10 years old should make decisions on the use or lack of use of birth control prior to having sex.
“The flamenca gives the novice a full glass of mead.”
Note: While I am not a doctor, I believe the result of having a child or most adults fast for three days and then drink a “full glass” of a high carbohydrate alcoholic beverage would be near instant intoxication.
“Bring back the fruits of your
“Bring back the fruits of your sponsor’s body”
Note: Although the instruction is not specifically to go have sex, with the wording of the preparation, this instruction is not hidden at this point. So at this point, we might be speaking of a 10 year old girl, removed from her parents care, raped by her father with a series of home made dildos, fasting for three days, intoxicated on mead, and told to go have sex with her sponsor. In the case of a male child, skip the dildo and include genital surgery.
“Does the novice now understand the meaning of life?”
“Do you still wish to be a member of this coven?”
Note: Some final highlights remember we are obviously talking about “children” and seem to be talking about children as early as the age of 10 years old.
“Do you have the fruits of your body (sponsors body)?”
“I will use my sex for good;”
“She symbolically whips him with his own whip. He kisses her foot, she helps him to rise. He points to his ankh (symbol of the God’s authority) at her. She falls to the ground. He symbolically whips her. She kisses his foot; he helps her to rise. “
“The symbology [SIC] of the meek overcoming the strong and the godhead overcoming all, even the flamenca, is easy to understand, but has been the cause of many attacks by the establishment, who freely change “foot” to “backside”.
Note: Interesting use of the word “establishment”. When combined with the pedophilia, I find this use of the word alarmingly similar to other religious organizations, which have turned my stomach.
Gavin Frost recinetly indicated his support of this teaching on his web site:
http://www.wicca.org/
gavinandyvo...teaser0507.html
It is rather clear that there is a small number of people who support his sick and twisted view of Wicca who continue to run around the internet and spread lies about the facts.
His chartered church(s) have been raided by the FBI where underaged sex and drugs were found.
He has admitted in print and publication that the material quoted above were the teachings of his Church and School of Wicca.
Many, many people have come out against him, making claim after claim.
Ah, but live and let live. Who has his writting ever harmed.
It seems to me that Gerald Gardner, founder of the Wiccan religion raised the cone of power against Hitler who did nothing but write and speak. I do not believe Hitler killed one Jew in his lifetime, he just wrote and spoke encouragingly about it. Ah but now I say I am planning on doing the same against folk who seem to have clearly wrote about tourturing, molesting and raping children in the name of Wicca and I am not Wiccan.
Oh please.
Woops, on book banning. It is not protected speech in the United States of America to encourage the breaking of law. Raping 10 year olds is breaking the law.
Clan of the Cave Bear (a book the Frosts use to defend themselves, interesting you would choose that title) is a work of fiction. The Frosts book an instructional.
The other titles were mostly documentary / historic. The Frosts book is instructional.
In my opinion, the book is the how and why of raping 10 year olds in the name of Wicca.
Are there victims of that book? Uh, duh. What part of the Frosts chartered church was raided by the FBI and found to be involved in drugs and underaged sex did you not understand?
Here we go again, you want proof that Gavin Frost put his penis in a 10 year old vigina. Follow, that is NOT my issue although I do believe he has from reading what he has written.
AJ my brain dead friend .. GET A GRIP..paranoid schizophrenics have more sense than you.. You come here and rant and play the same old tune.. when you come back to reality let us know
A.C. Aldag,
Here's why I don't think a disclaimer will ever be enough.
Never-ending damage-control for the community as waves of people discover that such and such was written within the Frosts' "bible."
Most people's eyes glaze over if you talk about different editions or get verbose (trying to clarify and counter). It's human nature to want to draw a line (thud!) when it comes to what is considered pedophilia.
Communication is at least a two-way street so before people won't listen, which will be pretty rapidly for enough people in this case, carefully delineate the contexts. Then one has gone upstream of potential problems.
“It is well known that ‘problem avoidance’ is an important part of problem solving. Instead of solving the problem you go upstream and alter the system so that the problem does not occur in the first place.” -- Edward de Bono
Okay, AJ, give us the evidence!
Exactly which C&SoW chartered church was raided by the FBI, exactly when and where? Where are the newspaper stories repeating your claims? Where are the legal records of the subsequent criminal trials? Who were the people arrested? How do you know the Wiccan church involved was chartered by the Frosts?
Don't bring up Todd again. He was never raided by the FBI, in fact the FBI were protecting him, and the Frosts revoked his charter as soon as they knew he was using it to seduce sixteen-year-olds (not, mind you, small children).
Exactly who were the "many, many people" making exactly what claims about the Frosts? Where are the legal records of the subsequent lawsuits (there have to be some, as the Frosts would have sued anyone making such claims).
So far you've given the world nothing but old book quotes and rumors to justify your vendetta.
Let's see some evidence of actual crimes being committed against small children by the Frosts or their followers. Otherwise, take your desperate attention-seeking lies and bury them in the nearest garbage dump where they belong.
Kudos Isaac well said.. Also i present a definition Mr Drew should read
slander
A type of defamation. Slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community. Because slander is a tort (a civil wrong), the injured person can bring a lawsuit against the person who made the false statement. If the statement is made via broadcast media -- for example, over the radio or on TV -- it is considered libel, rather than slander, because the statement has the potential to reach a very wide audience.
Bill Schnoebelen, John Todd, Tom Sanguinet, Clifford Alford, Eric Pryor, and many others were involved in the Church and School of Wicca, denounced it as Satanism, and later became Born again Christians and got rapped up in the Satanic Panic Industry. In fact, the Frosts seem to have almost single handedly fueled the Satanic Panic industry with folk leaving their church in disguest and turning to Christianity.
So uh, the FBI was protecting John Todd? Ye, it was all a great conspiracy against the Frosts.
But lets just discount all of these names as they have all been proven to be nutty after there experiences with the Frosts. Lets just ignore the FBI's investigator's guide which states that exagerated claims are just about epected and that there is often truth at the foundation at their claims.
Lets just ignore the fact that the Frosts wrote and published what they did.
People turned to Wicca, then went running away, so now that they rebuke Wicca, you and others will discredit them. Ok what ever, you asked for names; there's a bunch.
All, I believe, former MEMBERS of the Church and School of Wicca. Not just people pulling it from their butts, but members and some of the people who ran church Chapters for Gavin and Yvonne Frost.
You remind me of the dope smokers in highschool. He's cool, he smokes dope. Gavin's cool. He smokes dope. Oh that chick that says he raped her, oh she must be a nark. Just because these folk are traumatized and were fueled by the anti-pagan movement, does not mean they is not a basis for their claims and the FBI has been clear in saying just that in the Lanning report of such victims.
Ah, but maybe the FBI, the former members, the former leaders of the Frosts churchs, and so on and so forth are all wrong. After all, Gavin is Wiccan, he must be OK.
Ooops, I almost forgot:
"The Church and School of Wicca is the only true Wiccan church..."
Gavin Frost June 29, 2007
http://gavinandyvonne.blogspot.c...their-
cost.html
"People simply cannot comprehend what a partnership way of life would be like. And the moment you suggest that a physician snip a girl's hymen so that her first sexual experience won't be bloody, painful, and traumatic, the moment you suggest the tiny snip of the membrane that holds the foreskin to the glans that would let the young male have an equally pleasant first sexual experience, in that moment all the self-appointed christo-pW's scream in unison, "Mutilation!" "Child molest!"
Gavin Frost 05/07 from
http://www.wicca.org/
gavinandyvo...teaser0507.html
Note the use of the terms "girl" and "young man" in reference to getting them ready for their first sexual experience. Note the date of the quote was last month. Note this is a defence of and reference to the book which describes what they mean as a girl or young man as the onset of the first psysical signs of sexuality (puberty), so about the age of 12 (national average) or 9 or 10 which is fairly common as well.
I am no historian, but I do not think Hitler killed a single Jew personaly. I think he wrote about it, encouraged it, and promoted it. I am not a victim of Gavin Frost, so I do not know if he raped children personaly. I think he wrote about it, encouraged it, and promoted it.
So are you also claiming Hitler was innocent?
The more you rant without hard concrete evidence..police reports fbi case numbers names dates places. You are more over showing your arguments that the Frosts have done anything illegal to be pure delusion. I feel almost.. almost sorry for you. But thats ok.. because as time goes by people are going to realize your just a loony on a bent. Get counseling.. get help.. Take your meds. And one day youll be able to return to society
Shadowhawk, I remember you now. You are the one that was thrown off http://PaganNation.com by moderators after calling one of them a bitch and others various other obscenities. Now I remember, you are the one who said you were there to defend the Frosts and there was nothing anyone could do to change your mind.
Shadowhawk said: “As for myself i am someone who has personally known the Frosts family for about 15 years.”
http://pagannation.com/ubbthread...er/51080/page/
1
Shadowhawk said: “But in my support for the Frosts i will NOT waver ”
http://pagannation.com/ubbthread...er/51710/page/
1
To A.J. Drew, Shadowhawk said: “You sir are an effing idiot.”
http://pagannation.com/ubbthread...er/51756/page/
1
My thought is you have all read the quotes. You have seen how Shadowhawk conducts himself here and at www.PaganNation.com where I am often argued with and have not one person who can say that they would never waver in my support. I encourage argument and debate. Yes I do feel strongly on this one issue. But if someone is going to be called a charismatic cult leader, it certainly is not the brain-damaged blacksmith, as I have no one with such loyalty.
So in the things that Shadowhawk is saying, please keep in mind he has firmly stated that he is a 15 year personal associate of Gavin Frost whose support will not waver. Come to think of it, I wouldn’t even have noticed this blog if not for him coming to http://www.PaganNation.com and calling me a “effing idiot” or the moderators there bitches as well as other verbal attacks.
So if you want to believe I am some rising cult leader, feel free. I mostly just make knives and swords for folk who have no idea about Pagan Nation or my books. In fact, I don’t even write books anymore due to a brain injury. Wait, I do have a group of folk that I drink with and we do have an initiation ritual. But we only have three members I think. I forget, I was drunk.
Mr. Drew, I'm not defending the Frosts. Never met 'em. I find some of what they write about to be repugnant. Personally, I find the whole Wiccan scourging thing to be, well, rather silly. Ditto initiations. ANY initiations. I've also spoken out against child molestation in ANY religious environment, including Paganism, including denouncing a popular Wiccan person who actually did perpetrate a crime.
BUT, that said, what the Frosts write about is what they believe that oldline European people actually did. Just as Alex Haley wrote about fourteen-year-old young women being sexually initiated by 40 year old men, becoming their mistresses for years before their arranged marriages. Haley wrote about young men becoming initiated by older widows. He made it seem acceptable in the context of his book. Should we ban _Roots_ and burn Mr. Haley in effigy?
Well, um, Haley wrote about what "primitive" African people did, so that's okay. Now the Frosts are writing about what white, European, Anglo-Saxon or Breton people did, and that makes us uncomfortable, because most of us are white, European-based, educated folks. Many of us learned about Wicca as adults, and we'd all like to think that our ancestors just hugged trees, nutured their kids as we do, and used the Rede as a compass, because that is what makes us feel good about ourselves. After all, us white Americans are civilized, right? Always have been, right?
But our ancestors didn't do that. Oldline people had a lot of unsavory practices. Should we simply ignore them, because someone outside our culture might accuse us of still doing it? We can gently point out that their ancestors raped slave and native women...
I'd also like to point out that oldline people developed some of these practices -- such as cutting the foreskin membranes -- because they did not have access to medical doctors. Anyone else remember Kunta Kinte's circumcision ritual? Like, owch. Was that old shaman dude a child molester?
Christians often lie like a rug about their past, try to sugarcoat their abominations. Let's us be honest, which is better than trying to do any "damage control".
So Aj i dont deny anything you have said.. Big deal.. but know this yu still havent proven anything about the Frosts.. you have only quoted passages from the book and other internet sources. and as far as to if im a bad man because i said bad words on your piss poor website.. so what.. the onus is on you my friend.. not on me
A.C. Aldag said: "what the Frosts write about is what they believe that oldline European people actually did"
If that is the case, why then did they describe the construction of various sized dildos using Nylon (first produced in 1935 and why does later editions of their book state that what follows were in fact the teachings of the Church and School of Wicca?
The Frosts have said point blank that those were their teachings, not a historic account. They described making the dildos using nylon which did not exist until 1935.
The quotes are here:
http://www.freewebs.com/controve...B/
ChapterIV.htm
Shadowhawk - You are right, all I have done is quote the book & quote internet sources. My stance is that Gavin and Yvonne Frost have encouraged the tourture, molestation, and rape of children in the name of Wicca. Their book is the evidence. All I am doing is bringing it to people's attention.
In bringing your long standing friendship with the Frosts to their attention and your statement that you will never stop supporting them, all I am doing is indicating that your accusations that I am some upcomming cult leader might be a bit misplaced.
In short, I am doing my best to have a civil conversation.
In closing, read the quotes from the book. Better yet, read it in context. The book is an instruction manual. Nothing historic about it.
Recap, just because people seem to keep forgetting what I have and have not said:
I said I am going to sacrifice Gavin and Yvonne Frost in effigy.
I have not said that I will be burning them, decapitating them, disemboweling them, or the other many things that bloggers and forum goers have now stated that I am planning.
So please get your story right. I am going to kill them in effigy. It is an act of magick. But I am not saying how I am doing it.
I will anounce the exact format of their sacrifice in effigy at the Sacrifice to Caring this October.
"Bill Schnoebelen, John Todd, Tom Sanguinet, Clifford Alford, Eric Pryor, and many others were involved in the Church and School of Wicca, denounced it as Satanism, and later became Born again Christians and got rapped up in the Satanic Panic Industry."All of those people are pathological liars, exploiting the Christian Fundamentalist market. They all claimed to be "leaders" of various groups, most of which either never existed or else—if they were real groups—have never heard of them. Entire books have been written about them by journalists, many of them Evangelicals themselves, exposing them as frauds.
To the best of my knowledge only Todd was ever a member of the Church and School of Wicca. But since the Satanic Global Conspiracy nuts think all of Wicca is organized into a single (evil) group, they latched on to the name of the Frosts' trad to show they belonged to the "real demonic cult."
I suppose it's possible some of them might have joined the C&SoW, but being ignorant jerks they wouldn't have lasted long. Whatever else can be said about the Frosts, they have one of the toughest and longest training systems of any Wiccan trad. 95% of their students wash out in the first year or two. Perhaps that would inspire people to spread nasty rumors about them, but I believe the Fundies you quote as authorities are simply lieing about being former members, as they lie about everything else in their "Satanic" pasts.
These are the same people who say that I am the secret criminal mastermind behind the Bavarian Illuminati (fnord!), control the entire rock and roll industry (which holds Wiccan rituals to install demons into the master records of every album, in order to possess innocent Christian teens who listen to the music), and lead millions of zombie minions who will do anything I tell them to. Oh, and I also get enormous financial support from the Rothschilds and the Rockefellers to fulfill my Satanic duties.
These are your witnesses against the Frosts? You have just completely destroyed any credibility you might have on this or any other topic. How can you expect people to take you seriously as a "Craft leader," when you are this grossly ignorant about our real enemies?
No, the Frosts should never have written what they did. Yes, they should remove it entirely from future printings. I've been telling Gavin that for twenty years, but he's a stubborn man and doesn't like being censored.
You AJ, on the other hand, should Get A Life. Here's a challenge: promote your event without riding on the coattails of the Frosts—if you can.
Good points Isaac .. And as to the task of a civil conversation . i see nothing civil about your libelous accusations against the Frosts. The time is coming when Pagans will realize that witch wars do not benefit anyone.. especially those who start them.so think about that Mr Drew
Isaac, if I wanted to have an irrational argument with you I would bring up that medical problem that Anton Levay reportedly helped you with. Or maybe the time you were drunk and claimed that you were there when Raymond Buckland made up Seax Wicca entirely. I don’t want to do that.
I listed these specific people because they were some of the most outspoken members of the Satanic Panic industry. In fact, it seems a huge number of folk involved in the Satanic Panic industry are former members of the Church and School of Wicca. While many have argued that was because the church was operated via mail order, you will recall Gerald Gardner operated via mail order and if I am not mistaken, so did Dr. Raymond Buckland for some time. Today, there are online schools of Wicca and Witchcraft and to date no organization that I am aware of has generated as many people who have converted to Christianity and then rebuked the organization as often as the Church and School of Wicca.
In fact, when this was observed by Kerr Cuhulain, former police officer and child abuse investigator, Gavin Frost stopped communicating with Mr. Cuhulain. Mr. Cuhulain observed this while writing articles on some of those people that I listed. When his investigation seemed focused on those making the accusations, Gavin Frost was very forthcoming. However, per communication with Mr. Cuhulain the communications stopped right about the time Mr. Cuhulain started to realize the connection.
According to the FBI’s Lanning report, outrageous claims are often made when there is in fact a basis of truth behind those claims. Unfortunately, victims who are traumatized by certain members of groups are rebuked by other members of those groups because they simply can not believe one of their own could take such actions. This is often the case with a child who tells her mother about her father’s abuse. The result with those who have been involved in such matters in a pagan setting is that they are rebuked by fellow pagans and then of course embraced by those who seek to disgrace the pagan community. Those who seek to disgrace the pagan movement then fuel the delusional state that original situation caused.
In short, although I am taking the actions that I am against Gavin and Yvonne Frost because the content of their book seems to rather clearly promote the torture, molestation, and rape of children in the name of Wicca. I also believe that the Church and School of Wicca was a tremendous influence on establishing the Satanic Panic Industry where millions of dollars were made.
That industry, virtually unknown to most pagan folk, was probably just as large if not larger than the pagan book industry of the time. It has since evolved into a similar industry, although I would not call it Satanic Panic anymore. So we are left with a Pagan Industry which publishes nothing but material on how great the pagan community is (and makes tons of money doing so) and we have the Anti-Pag
...Anti-Pagan Industry which publishes nothing but material on how horrible the pagan community is (and makes tons of money doing so).
Not that I think there is a conscious conspiracy, but it does seem so very well thought out does it not? And so many names starting in one industry and moving on to help found the next.
I'm beginning to believe what you said about brain damage, as you don't seem to be able to follow a coherent argument with a relevant line of reasoning.
You are taking the word of a bunch of professional liars because they say bad things about the Frosts. You might denounce everything else these psychopaths might say about Wicca, but these lies you choose to believe, because they seem to support your position.
Mind you, I'm taking your word here that all these Evangelists actually said what you claim they said. Could we have the actual quotes and book citations, please? And any supporting evidence that might actually exist to prove that they were ever members, let alone "leaders" of the C&SoW?
No, I thought not.
You're very good at changing the subject and distracting people from the main issue, which is that you wants lots of people to come to your events and pay lots of attention to you. That's a perfectly normal motive, but doesn't actually require you to perform magical malpractice or to lie in public about people who have been a thousand times more influential (for good, bad, or weird) than you will ever be.
Stick to the truth. Tell people how wonderful your event will be. Tell them who will be giving workshops, who will be playing music, who will be giving tarot readings, or whatever.
You don't need to be magically attacking any Wiccan or Pagan leaders. Instead, do a magical binding on real abusers in your home town, say one that forces them to confess to the police. Just remember, if you are going to go around invoking deities of justice, your own karma had better be squeaky clean.
AJ is well known for his publicity stunts, and this just seems to be another one.
He creates the situation, places himself in the center of it, he's always on the side of what's right, intentionally causes a division among the Pagan Community by having them "take sides," and then plays the victim - all in the name of getting attention (he's a Leo).
Believe me, before it's all through he will play the victim if he has not done so already - it's his M.O.
Really he has already succeded to a point, in that he is the center of attention. Like Bush, he creats an "either your with me, or aganist me" sideshow.
As to 1st Amendment Rights - everyone should have them. Drew has as much right to speak as do the Frost's, Nazi's, the KKK, gw bush, you and I, everyone. You cannot censor the right of anyone to speak or you take away everyone's right.
Some may remember when the Frost's came to Columbus in '72' (or was it 73?), and were confronted by Lord Merlin. Most of the people attending left the lecture that day. The next day the Frost's left town and, to my knowledge, have never returned.
AJ's own posts show his lack of understanding as to Magick, Will vs will, Magic vs Magick, Ritual, Sacrifice, and just about everything else. Using Crowley's example of Magick clearly shows his complete misunderstanding of it - the difference between will (desire / whim - Magic), which is changeable, and Will (True Will, or one's True Purpose for Being - Magick), which is constant.
One poster mentioned that this discussion shouldn't be about AJ but what the Frost's wrote 35 years ago. Why then is it just as much about Drew as the Frost's? Because that's the way he wants it - the center of attention - and has made it thus (a true act of Magic).
I know that the Frost's have done some good things and have said, maybe even done, some bad things. Personally I did not carry their books at my shop because of my personal OPINION but I did not spread rumours about them, or get people stirred up, either; I would instead direct people to other authors.
Neither Rape nor molestation is acceptable in any way, shape, or form but I think that our (The Pagan Community at large) energy would do more good directed at such groups as NAMBLA than at the Frost's; even letters to the Frost's publisher would be more effective (if not less dramatic), or just don't buy their books, or both - but this is obviously too simple of an approach. It seems more productive, somehow, to get everyone all worked up and fighting amongst themselves instead.
How about forming a group called, say, Pagans Aganist Child Abuse? I'd wagger that most people could get behind such a movement. Hell, it might even get of few of us together.
L.V.X
93/93
Blessed Be
Shadow
Isaac Bonewits writes;
"No, the Frosts should never have written what they did. Yes, they should remove it entirely from future printings. I've been telling Gavin that for twenty years, but he's a stubborn man and doesn't like being censored."
Is it possible that Gavin refuses to remove this particular ritual from the book because he condones it's usage? Has he ever told you straight up that he does not condone this ritual being enacted with children either formally or informally?
I ask these things because, publicly, both he and Yvonne adamantly defend this ritual. Unless you, or anyone else, can tell us that this changes in private discussion, then is it not safe to assume that they do stand behind these teachings as they say they do?
Once again NO they DO NOT adamantly condone this ritual ONCE AGAIN i point to the interview with Ellen Everett Hopman in Her book People of the Earth the New Pagans Speak Out. Its people like you that dont take the time to research things that ultimately end up with a foot in there mouth
shadowhawk,
Has it ever occurred to you to wonder why AJ Drew says he welcomes a libel suit from the Frosts?
I have.
I think it is because in order to prove libel, the Frosts would have to publicly disavow this ritual, state that they have never encouraged its usage with children, and state that they have never witnessed or participated in this ritual when children have been involved. This is all that AJ Drew has ever said that he believes they do.
I do not believe such a libel case will be forthcoming.
shadowhawk,
I have read that interview and I do not see where either of the Frosts say that they do not condone this ritual. Gavin defends it by saying that American Indian Shamans deflowered virgins and Yvonne defends it through some inane logic that adults that were abused as children are incapable of living full lives. No where do either of them disavow this ritual.
If I missed where they do, please feel free to point it out.
it doesnt matter if they disavow anything. AJ DREW has basically accused them of promoting and possibly engaging in acts that endanger children. read this definition let it sink in..and personally i hope a lawsuit is pending, its time people realize they cant say what they will and expect no repercussions
slander
A type of defamation. Slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community. Because slander is a tort (a civil wrong), the injured person can bring a lawsuit against the person who made the false statement. If the statement is made via broadcast media -- for example, over the radio or on TV -- it is considered libel, rather than slander, because the statement has the potential to reach a very wide audience
And being posted all the web in several places this counts as Libel
The Hopman interview:
GAVIN: "Gavin....In every single society , if you go back and look at any of the old American Indian shamanistic works or books on the roots of civilization, you will find that the maiden was deflowered by the shaman as a rite of passage and initiation to bring her into womanhood.
But in The Good Witch's Bible Gavin and Yvonne say it's not the "shaman" of the coven (the flamen/HP) who "sponsors" the girl, "for he is too awe-inspiring" (hey, you two ought to know). It's the newbie, the latest guy to get initiated, the guy in the coven who knows the least about being a witch, who gets lucky.
We have zero -- count 'em, zero -- ways of knowing how "every single society" in the pre-literate past initiated children. But we sure know that the available literature doesn't show that Daddy gets to spend three weeks showing his love and respect for his little girl, every morning and evening, by helping her learn how to use her dildos right, or inviting the coven newbie to come over and help.
The Frosts can't even keep their bullshit explanations consistent.
The keyword in the definition of slander is "untruthful." I have yet to see any proof that what AJ Drew has said is untruthful.
Harming the reputation of a person with truth is not slander.
ACCUSATIONS.of child molestation without PROOF is SLANDER.. get a clue. a chapter written in a book is not proof.. witnesses victims and physical evidence is proof.. and you mrs carol mathby and AJ DREW have no proof in any of that.. so now what..??
I would like to see the original source materials for the Frosts anthropology.
"GAVIN: "Gavin....In every single society , if you go back and look at any of the old American Indian shamanistic works or books on the roots of civilization, you will find that the maiden was deflowered by the shaman as a rite of passage and initiation to bring her into womanhood. "
This is false since there were societies without shamans (which really should only be used in a Siberian context...see Eliade. "Every" is the clue since there is always exceptions in human behavior. Admittedly not as read up on the sexual practices of America First Peoples ancestors as the Frosts but the prevelance of gay men as spiritual engineers in those societies would seem to contradict there statement.
The main source that im assuming they have consulted is
The Roots of Civilization by Alexander Marshack
Coverage of rituals of past cultures should be able to stand up to academic scrutiny.
That's not usually achieved by sticking (sheltering?) such work in a "bible."
How excellent was the Frosts' coverage of rituals past? How much was supposition/imagination?
Don't need trolls to discuss that. Don't need accusations that exploring history means one is supporting everything done in history. That would make an array of scientists and other professionals guilty of everything in history.
However, the uncomfortable nagging question is that if much of the Frost's work was imagination/supposition (filler), it is odd that they went into so much detail. That would give many a person the willies.
Too many trailing ifs...and that's especially uncomfortable for a lot of people because the Frosts are both supposedly too bright for this, IQ-wise anway...
BTW, I am not supporting AJ Drew I dont believe that the Frosts have done anything more than being sloppy with their research and then hard-headed later refusing to retract.
sari0009 writes:
"However, the uncomfortable nagging question is that if much of the Frost's work was imagination/supposition (filler), it is odd that they went into so much detail. That would give many a person the willies."
In the interview with Ellen Everett Hopman which has already been cited, Yvonne clearly states that this ritual was devised by them (the Frosts). I have to assume that this means they have no evidence that this ritual is historically documented as part of witchcraft. To my knowledge, they have never supplied any source for any of the particulars of this ritual.
Not enough information.
Too much partial information wielded...
Have to assume? Have to assume particular assumptions?
Ack.
Off Topic -- Hey Mr. Bonewits, you control the rock and roll industry, how'bout sending Godsmack to PaganStock 2008? We'll even give you a free T-shirt. 
On Topic -- Mr. Drew, I have absolutely no objection to you denouncing the Frosts' writings, saying that you find their material repugnant, irresponsible, and suggesting that it might lead to child abuse practices. That it looks bad for Wicca, that it can cause reprocussions. This is absolutely your right -- free speech.
What I'm having a huge issue with, is you wishing to censor what I can read, your wish to ban books, with you accusing people of a crime without concrete evidence, and the killing / sacrificing / banishing / whatever of any person in effigy without a trial of their peers, some type of representation, and without presenting concrete evidence. What we have now is a lot of conjecture and speculation. I believe that a magical killing or banishing is just as effective as a physical, and so it darn well better be based on more than guesswork.
A comparison: "Ace, I don't think you should publish herbal abortion recipes online, it might cause someone to ingest poisonous plants and get sick, and besides I think it's infanticide" vs. "A.C. regularly poisons people, she kills babies." The former statement is acceptable, the latter irresponsible and would likely get your *ss sued.
Why not put it in the hands of the Gods, and ask that if a crime has been committed, that the perpetrator be found and punished?
I also wish to refute your conclusions about history. Lacota Sweat lodges are now constructed of plastic tarpaulins, because buffalo skins are in rather short supply. We Cymri folks now replace ambergris with musk oil, but that doesn't negate the entire ceremony.
I imagine nylon is more readily available nowadays than mastodon ivory. Mr. Frost does claim oldline roots -- whether or not it's true, I have no proof -- but phalli such as he describes have been discovered by archeologists. There's a few of 'em in the British Museum. Hard to convince me (no pun intended) that they were used as rolling pins, cricket bats or purely ceremonial objects.
Another point -- If I were molested by Pagans, I don't think I'd complain to other Pagans, especially if I thought I'd be open to attack. I think I'd complain to my local police, who would be more than happy to raid the coven, arrest people, and splash it all over headlines. This'd be awfully difficult for the Pagans to cover up, hide, even do any damage control. Why ain't this happened? Don't you think Law Enforcement would be out there collecting DNA evidence in a red hot minute? Any other time a Pagan commits a crime, it's ALL over the papers & TV. Don't you think a serious criminal accusation of the Frosts would be on 60 Minutes in in People Magazine?
As for the Frosts being frail, I'm sure they've got sufficient mojo to spare.
Why, if you check out their bookThe Magic Power of Witchcraft(I wish I could write the title in the dripping candle typeface they use), check out p. 82 in the chapter "You too can use the witches' magic healing power." The header is, "SUE'S ENEMIES DIED." Sue, a Witch trainee with only a couple of months' training, built a psychic mirror so anyone attacking her "would receive what he tried to give her." Within days, the two bad guys were dead -- one in a traffic accident, the other fell off a roof. "She could have hexed these people directly, but she was kinder than that. 'If they attack me, they'll get it back,' was all she directed; yet two men died.
With way more than a couple of months' training, not to mention the magic healing power of being under oath in court in the hands of Themis, Justitia, and Ma'at, the Frosts should do just fine.
AJ,
The age of puberty is summed up succinctly by Wikipedia thusly:
The age at which puberty occurs has dropped significantly since the 1840s. Researchers refer to this drop as the 'secular trend'. From 1840 through 1950, in each decade there was a drop of four months in the average age of menarche among Western European female samples. In Norway, girls born in 1840 had their first menarche at average 17 years. In France in 1840 the average was 15.3 years. In England the 1840 average was 16.5 years for girls. In Japan the decline happened later and was then more rapid: from 1945 to 1975 in Japan there was a drop of 11 months per decade.So no, I'm not making up facts.
The most likely cause is the increase of weight gain in the world's youth. Some parents fear that it may be caused by hormones and other additions in processed milk and meats.
Two hundred years ago it was common for people to get married at fifteen or sixteen, however, they didn't usually start having children for another year or two.
All of which is a distraction from the main points I and others have raised against your arguments here and elsewhere. So are your distortions of comments I've made about Pagan warriors, lies that Satanists and Evangelists have told about me, etc.
I now understand why every Pagan author I know and respect has warned me about about responding to false accusations on the net, even to defend friends and colleagues. It really is a waste of time, for those who choose to believe horrible lies without proof will continue to so believe, no matter how much evidence is brought to light. At this point I'm going to let Gavin and Yvonne's lawyers handle your slander. I have new books to finish, new music to record, real festivals to prepare for, and love to share with my family.
May you have the same.
Isaac, before you go, can I just know your answers to these questions?
Is a father helping his pre-teen daughter use a dildo incest?
Is sex with a pre-teen child statutory rape?
Because Gavin and Yvonne give detailed instructions on practicing incest and statutory rape in the name of their religion. These are how-to instructions in a whole book of how-to instructions.
The full title of their original book, contrary to claims they've made, is The Witch's Bible: How to Practice the Old Religion.
The Frosts were teachers, this is what they were teaching. Not "The Witch's Bible: Speculations on what those horny wild and crazy ancestors of ours were up to."
I hit puberty in 1964. Sixth grade, like most girls around then, and still now. We knew what statutory rape was when we were kids in the sixties, didn't Gavin and Yvonne?
CLAIM: Ever since publication of The Witch's Bible in 1969, we Frosts seem to have been anathema to some members of the Craft. The book's original title was to have been How to Practice the Oldest Religion, but was changed at the last moment at the publisher's request. From "Going Public" by Gavin & Yvonne Frost http://www.chasclifton.com/books...ooks/
chap3.html
FACT: The Witch's Bible - How To Practice The Oldest Religion by Gavin & Yvonne Frost, Nash Publishing, Los Angeles 1972. First Printing
Book Description: Black Faux Leather with gilt embossed ewmblem to front board and gilt embossed title, author and publisher to spine - In Near Fine Condition, some wear to bottom corners. Dustjacket in mylar in Very Good minus condition, unclipped, some chips at edges. 310 pages, red epps, illustrated throughout, clean and unmarked* (*name in pen inside front board - small, under flap of dustjacket). Book contains and introduction, basic precepts and definitions, freeing the mind, standard service, initiation and fertility service, tools and equipment; prayers, songs, incantations; Perils and precautions, forming and running a coven, healing the sick; telepathy, clairvoyance, clairaudience, and clairentience; prediction, harmony and a glossary. *WARNING* As with the authors we make no guarantee for the contents of this book. This is a collectors item. Thanks for looking in our store.
Seller: the_antiquarium Ebay item number: 200045522047 http://cgi.ebay.com/The-Witchs-
B...3QQcmdZViewItem
Image showing title and subtitle: http://i7.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/7...7/44/
cba9_1.JPG
FACT: THE WITCH'S BIBLE. How to Practice the Oldest Religion. Frost, Gavin and Yvonne. ISBN: 0840213042 St. Louis: Al-Jon Press, 1986.
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/...ls?
bi=697779071
Carol: My grandmother got married at age 14, had her first child at 15. Is that statutory rape? Nowadays yes, in 1920s rural Upper Peninsula of Michigan, it was a common practice. She was ancestrally Pagan, and I have no doubt that she was coached that her duty was to get married, please her husband, and have lots and lots of kids. All the women's rights stuff was for rich people who didn't have to marry or work.
Country icon Loretta Lynn was married at 13 in rural Kentucky in the 40s. Ditto Priscilla Presley, in the 50s. Many of my daughter's friends have become parents at this age, right here in the new millenium. Is it something I would recommend? Oh, hell no! Something I would advocate for my own daughter? No way, because in these times it means privation.
My daughter's own womanhood initiation was all about how to prevent pregnancy until she can afford it... and the ceremony was pretty much oldline, except for that particular advice, and the pizza. She already knew all the sexuality stuff from public school... another benefit our ancestors didn't enjoy.
Did many oldline ceremonies include how to stretch the vagina, how to remove the hymen? I don't doubt it. Was it as the Frosts described? Well, probably not... they are academics, after all, and they likely looked at the artifacts, and the writings of folks who considered us uneducated heathens, rather than actually interviewing any oldline people. (Or maybe, like Mr. Bonewits, they don't think there are any of us left!)
Was the father or male priest responsible for this ritual? Prolly not; elder men didn't participate in menstural ceremonies or birthing, what makes us think that they'd have any part of a womanhood initiation? They were too busy teaching their boys how to butcher hogs and bale the hay. Yet Rhiannon Ryall, who also claims oldline heritage, says that she was "sponsored" by a male covenor, who taught her about sexuality.
So it likely really happened, & the worst the Frosts did was get it wrong. And not provide a disclaimer. Sorry if it makes you squeamish, but I imagine that putting chicken guts on a coon shrine to keep 'em out of your corn would prolly gross you out, too.
Isaac Bonewits writes:
"The age of puberty is summed up succinctly by Wikipedia thusly:"
It should be noted that the item Isaac quotes from Wikipedia is a very recent addition and is flagged as needing citation.
According to Ora H. Pescovitz M.D. and Emily C. Walvoord M.D., in their book "When Puberty is Precocious" (ISBN# 978-1-58829-742-6 [Print] 978-1-60327-042-7 [Online]) as summarized by Peter A. Lee and Christopher P. Houk:
"Summary
It has been presumed by the media and the public that puberty is occurring earlier now than in past decades. This is the result of reports of earlier breast development in girls (Tanner stage 2, Br2) and earlier genital development (Tanner genital stage 2, G2) in boys. Nonetheless, owing to the lack of representative data, the intra- and inter-observer variability in Tanner staging, and the fact that initial sex hormone-driven physical changes do not always indicate the onset of puberty, bona fide evidence of an earlier pubertal onset is not available."
It's good to define things first, even if it's kind of like nailing Jell-O to the wall.
Decline in Age of Menarche:
http://www.mum.org/menarage.htm
The above link links to many others which link to more, so yes, coverage of the topic gets involved and includes controversy over different studies and some articles may be in foreign languages.
The above and its involvement (as well as other topics) is why discussions of past rituals should be presented in an academic arena.
Context (in a bible???) and audience are part of the message. Communication (writing or reading) is not a simple process between author/speaker and reader/listener but is influenced by preexisting knowledge/ignorance, socio-economic realities, cultural values, attitudes, and beliefs.
The Frosts' work would not have withstood academic scrutiny anyway. They took way too many liberties (with the topics and the audience).
There's an art to stirring up controversy in a largely beneficial way. The Frosts seemed to do well when they have more clearly defined goals, such as get their church legally recognized. Clarity, knowledge, resourcefulness, purpose, and being specific about desired outcome can be wonderful ingredients in magic too but lacking such can be sabotage, magical and other.
I can't fathom why the Frosts don't remove certain passages from their bible, brisk sales or not. Sunk cost fallacy? Pride? I really don't care about their reasons.
Past rituals should read "past rituals of this nature."
Behind all the verbiage, deciding when a kid hits puberty gives you two choices. One is simply to decree it by age, whether the kid's phyical maturity precedes the date or lags behind it. The other is to go by the outward signs like having breasts, and or other markers like menstruation. Or just the look on the face of the jerk who hasn't seen your daughter for a year, and can't hide his feelings.
I haven't personally known a teenage girl now or back as far as the sixties who wasn't showing the Frosts' criteria of "the physical attributes of reproduction" by the age of 14. That would have been under the age of consent and thus statutory rape from 1972 on, all those years that the Frosts were saying this was "How to practice the Oldest Religion."
I thought that the poster Diana made a very sensible remark on the Pagan Nation forum, that if you are young enough to need instruction on using a dildo, you are too young for sex. I'm afraid I don't have any direct experience of a painful first time, as my first time was with someone who was a master of foreplay, and we didn't have a coven waiting around for us to hurry up and finish.
.
It's really important to observe how seamlessly the initiation ceremony proceeds out of the protection and naming ceremony in the selection of Chapter IV of the 2000 edition of The Good Witch's Bible, which appears to be the way it stood for years. Put aside your feelings about the content for the moment, and look at them through a different lens.
http://www.freewebs.com/controve...B/
ChapterIV.htm
Look at the tone, the flow, the consistent feel of the two ceremonies. That second one, the sexual and religious initiation of a child, shows no signs of being stuck in to cause controversy and mess with the minds of the squares, or as a scholarly attempt to illustrate bygone habits of our ancestors, the way the self-serving interpretations stuck onto it long afterward claim.
They are both full of the same lists of actions to be done, words to say, and homespun philosophical commentary that all rites of this sort normally entail. The two rituals seem equal examples of what the Frosts well and truly believe at that time is the best way of doing them. There's an honest sincerity to the way the two rituals are written, no matter what our own reactions to them are.
It isn't doing a "nudge-nudge-wink-wink" saying their students don't have to take this literally, that it's not really the way a Church of Wicca coven initiates children. It doesn't correspond to other statements Gavin has made about the archaic initiation process, like shamans supposedly initiating the virgins. And more importantly, there has not been any plain vanilla document produced that would indicate that there was an alternate initiation liturgy for children in the Curch of Wicca without incest and rape.
Because of that, I think we are justified in taking these initation instructions as they stand, as historical documents (from a 21st c. perspective) on "How to Practice the Oldest Religion" Frost style in the 1970s, a manual ("Bible") that teachers have written for their students. We have the Frosts' statement that this was indeed what they used in the early years of the church.
But when did they stop initiating children this way?
Sorry for the italics, I meant to hit preview first and missed a crucial slash.
You've mentioned Rhiannon Ryall twice now, AC.
CLAIM: Rhiannon Ryall wrote about the same practice in "West Country Wicca", as apparently she was on the receiving end of such an initiation. It's something which the old folks did. NO, I'm not condoning it, any more than I would agree to stuff a live kitty under the floor of a new building. But these really were rites performed in the early days of modern Wicca / late days of hereditary witchcraft. It's part of our heritage. Denying that it happened is dishonest. Acknowledge the negative, confront the dark. -- A.C. Aldag http://www.haloscan.com/comments...4447627/
#231885
FACT : "I was initiated, in a cave, just after my eighteenth birthday... We had only two degrees of initiation. The second initiation was really a sign that the witch had sufficient knowledge and maturity of mind to do any kind of magical work necessary, should he or she ever have to work on their own. This final rite never took place until at least a year and a day had passed since the first initiation. [ p.22] The second initiation always consisted of a Great Rite. [p.9] Rhiannon Ryall, West Country Wicca Phoenix Publishing, Inc. Custer, WA 1989 [Bolding mine -- CM]
"Was it as the Frosts described? Well, probably not... they are academics, after all, and they likely looked at the artifacts, and the writings of folks who considered us uneducated heathens, rather than actually interviewing any oldline people"
No, the Frosts are not academics in any sense of the word. While Gavin may have gotten a Ph.D in physics and mathematics, all the biographical information I've seen on him does not state he had any teaching posts at college level. That Yvonne's two year course in secretarial skills or her writing of books would make her an academic is ludicrous. I haven't so far seen any evidence that their rambling hack work would ever pass muster as "scholarship."
BTW, for those wondering about the Frosts casually throwing out the scholarly "baton de commandment"[sic] and the Marshack reference, you should note that a google will get you 13,200 references if you spell it as "Bâton de commandement" and 23 if you spell it the way the Frosts do. Last week Rhiannon of Pagan Nation was going through the Marshack and reported so far she hadn't seen any references that supported the use of it as a dildo in there. As far as I can tell, while archeologists aren't all agreeing on what all the objects classified as batons might be for. The dildo-shaped batons with the holes in the end make pretty good spear throwers, though not as good as the atlatls, and the batons leave the scene about the time the atlatls are developed.
I was raised with chickens, and I've shared my corn with raccoons. Please stop making these assumptions about what you think I believe or prac
Seeing as your a Pagan Nation Lackey.. We can debate what happened to who and when ad nauseum.. but when it comes down to it Mr Drew has NO HARD EVIDENCE to back up his claims of abuse and molestation and i hardily hope and pray to my Gods that the Frosts sue his ass off for slander and libel. This guy has to know he will never ever get away with the crap hes pulling
"Behind all the verbiage, deciding when a kid hits puberty gives you two choices...decree it by age...go by the outward signs."
The question of puberty alone as the main axis point does tend to lead to binary reasoning which is potentially very harmful and confusing (socially, sexually, psychologically), especially when concerning complex areas of human sexuality.
Rituals of the past may have occurred in pre-literate communities and/or probably didn't understand basic child psychology, etc.
That was then, this is now.
Leaping out of the binary reasoning, at minimum there is a 3rd choice. Other than those parent-child talks and sex ed, parents/elders should resist meddling or getting too much into their kids' sexuality/crotches. Must have healthy boundaries.
So yeah, one may bring kids up as best as possible, have those talks with your kids/elders, push for excellent sex ed programs in schools, have clear rules, and then back off, entrusting young adults with their own sexuality and recognition of when they're ready for whom and under what circumstances (all while keeping certain rules intact if they're still living under your roof or someone else's as dependents).
You are quite right about the problems with simplifying things down to binary answers, sari0009. I was trying to couch it in the context of the Frost's initiation process. For most aspects of childrens' lives, everything is on a constantly shifting continuum, especially where their minds and emotions are concerned. I'm concerned that many people are getting bogged down in the issue of when a child is ready to decide to become sexually active, and trying to gloss over the Frosts' advocacy of incest, which has considerably less scope for reasonable people to disagree.
Our coven has been together for 20 years, and my children were born on the birthdays of two of the other children. While they all circled with us when they were small, none of the children wished to have any ceremony marking their puberty, and we didn't push. That was their decision, and only theirs to make.
"Pagan Nation lackey"? ROFLMAO!
I'd never heard of AJ Drew or his forum before this issue came up, and I'm not signed up to post there. I waded through a terrible signal to noise ratio to paraphrase two of the postings on the subject, and suddenly I'm Drew's handmaiden? For what it's worth, Raven Grimassi gently and courteously offered some wisdom there too recently, and his perspective's worth checking out.
Get this straight shadowhawk, since you've been having problems accurately describing what I said. I do not support what AJ Drew wants to do at his gathering in any way. However, it is my opinion that their public writings and statements show that Gavin and Yvonne Frost have promoted incest and sexual initation for children under the age of consent in the name of their tradition of Wicca, at least for some years in the early 1970s when the Church and School of Wicca started. The Frosts have publicly stated that these practices were part of their tradition's teaching in the early seventies.
"I was trying to couch it in the context of the Frost's initiation process."
But what contexts were the Frosts trying to put the initiation rituals in, now or in the 70's?
When discussing such rituals, what were they trying to lead up to and how crystal clear were they about such a purpose?
The fact remains that there are no recorded incidents of ritual-based pedophilia incidents related to their work, or even attempts to report it. This is so even though abuse, including pedophilia, crosses all religious, economic, and cultural boundaries. This is so despite the fact that if there were any incidents related to these rituals, it'd be splashed across the news media!
As I noted earlier across many of my recent comments, I have my own ideas as to why the Frost's work was not well received and why their contexts/purpose were muddled to the point of causing injury to the community -- to the point of begging waves of heinous tangles of misunderstandings.
* They took way too many liberties in covering the topics of such rituals.
* They got so long in the upsetting details that their purpose was lost to many.
(I'm seeing a domino effect between one error and the next.)
* Context and audience is part of the message.
* Coverage of such rituals would have been better addressed in a separate academic work.
* Their coverage of these past rituals would not have withstood academic scrutiny.
* They sheltered this mess in a "bible?" Not a good frame for these topics. What do people tend to do with bibles? Use only portions to make their point? Rail against the sick stuff in them? Those are two biggies!
* Speaking of making the leap from binary decisions to considering multiple factors and multiple choices, the Frosts should have offered crucial glimpses of comparative logic in the flow of things just as I did in my last comment. Doing this is crucial to determining and maintaining healthy boundaries. This is crucial for clarity. This opens shrinks the blind spot of our Johari window. This has tremendous directional force. Doing this is crucial to tipping points.
Ms. Maltby -- I am looking at the copy of West Country Wicca that I have, published by Phoenix in 1987, and the passage that you cite is there, WITHOUT the reference to Rhiannon being eighteen years old. WHOA! I absolutely believe you that it's in your edition... I wonder if all the controversy compelled the editors to add the line about being age 18? I glanced through every passage about initiation, including the page numbers you cite... ain't there. Somebody likely prettied it up for a modern audience.
Also, the object found in Grimes Graves is definately not a spear-thrower. It's made of chalk, and shaped & sized like a penis. No hole to hold a spear-shaft. No proof that it was used for initiating virgins... but it was likely a ritual object, found near a chalk matrika (Venus) statuette.
Sari -- MOST of the cultures our ancestors came from were pre-literate, unless the family was very rich or very privledged. "Child psychology"? That concept hasn't been around much longer than the 1950s, and I can't say that it's improved our society, much.
Nor has "entrusting young adults with their own sexuality", which is why the unwed pregnancy rate is so darn high. That's why I think that a womanhood ceremony is terribly important: giving birth control information, with warnings about unplanned pregnancy and the shame of welfare dependency.
But our ancestors did it differently, and pre-literate and ignorant though they were, it worked for them.
"Sari -- MOST of the cultures our ancestors came from were pre-literate..."
That was my point.
"'Child psychology'? That concept hasn't been around much longer than the 1950s, and I can't say that it's improved our society, much."
I disagree with you regarding child psychology not doing a lot of good. We've come a long way since having the Humane Society jump start awareness regarding child abuse. Our understanding of child psychology helped impact our understanding and treatment of domestic abuse and other issues. Those in turn impacted our understanding of child psychology across various fields and programs.
The Humane Society and Its Involvement:
http://
www.theawarenesscenter.or...ChildAbuse.html
A Time Line Regarding Domestic Abuse:
http://www.mincava.umn.edu/docum...y/
herstory.html
I would agree that child psychology would be put to better use if logic were something everyone was well versed in and if No Child Left a Brain, heh, was dismantled and our education system overhauled.
Anyway...
We cannot merely rely on being literate. We also have to be particularly literate about types of power (the Power Wheels useful in exploring that), and that pulls in the topic of logic.
Sorry, where does the Grimes Graves artifact come in specifically?
That's interesting about Ryall. From what I see on the net, she died at 49 of a heart attack, so getting corroboration one way or another might not be easy.
I see that Phoenix Publishing focuses on books about Wicca. Given that, I'd not expect them to be them fussing and asking to add the age of 18 at that relatively late date for the second edition. The account is given minimally, and described discreetly and unadorned.
***Mr. Drew, if we're gonna start banning books, here are a couple more.***
All of which are fiction and do not provide official outlines for ones religious initiation specifying that it be undertaken 'at the earliest possible age' 'once the physical attributes of procreation are present' etc.
Further, I see no one suggesting that anyone BAN anything. I see an encouragement to PROTEST this and other works and appearances by the Frosts, as the Frosts are standing behind this. I think it would be different if they publically stated that they somehow had good intentions with this and that they realize that it was a VERY BAD idea and retracted the material. But since they are not and remain pretty clear that they are standing behind it- a protest is perfectly appropriate.
If the Pagan community can stand togther on *anything* I'd hope that a protest against such writings detailing child-rape as initiation to Wicca would be first on the list.
Greetings, One and All,
Once I read that Drew had also threatened Isaac, among the other friends he has threatened, using all the might of his allegations and theories, it was time to check into where this thread was going. Okay, here I am and this is the best source you are going to get regarding my parents.
I have spent years questioning, seeking, learning on my own before you toss out the old hat--she's just a brainwashed flunky. Sorry, that's too easy for a reasonably well-educated person like myself.
The DD? No, I don't know where it comes from but it's not the ULC. Kerr Cuhulain -- cool dude, I like him as does Gavin. I'm not aware of communication tapering off although the round of interviews must have been conducted about the time that my parents moved from NC to WV. I'm sorry, I don't have dates to provide you with actual factual basis, mainly memories. I wrote Cuhulain recently, privately, to ask him a few questions regarding his article and I agreed with his private responses which are a little different from what is on WitchVox. I am not at liberty to discuss that on a public forum, especially where everyone of my words will be dissected and reviewed until I return in August.
Gavin and Yvonne and anthropology. No, I can't cite sources except for Murray and we all know that some of her work may have been imagined. We didn't know that in 1972. Jean Auel did LOTS of research and never quoted nor thank the library nor the librarians that helped her (I have that on first hand from a librarian that worked with her) -- sad. I don't think Crowley cared about sources, he cared far more about other activities. Gardner, as far as I have read, didn't have any sources quoted and the closest he came was a term "WICA". Look it up, please.
As for sex and 10yo's. Come on. Do you think for one moment given the harangue and gossip that Gavin and Yvonne are currently dealing with and had to deal with in the past that they could have withstood this kind of scrutiny if they were, in fact, encouraging child sexual abuse. The point of muchof what they are writing now is that all three of us have had to withstand TREMENDOUS scrutiny my entire life--there is no way Gavin and Yvonne could have gotten away with this behavior if it were actually pursued. And, yes, they do think and act like academics which can be a loosely applied term to a behavior. They don't imagine that a word on a page can "make" a person do the things some people imagine have been done. (Who is this about then, the imaginer or the imagined?) They have a hard time understanding alcoholism as a disease -- you mean you can't just put the drink down. They have a hard time imagining that Metallica caused Columbine. We live such clean lives, we are so embarassingly square because we have grown accustomed to such scrutiny for so many years.
I remember when Wicca was fun, when my dad could tell a joke, when Sybil Leek, and others, sat and drank and laughed all ni
I didn't realize there was a word limit. Oh well, the rest I wrote probably wasn't meant to be seen anyway and now I have to go actually work at my real job instead of watching people debate about alleged events that have been debated for years. Good luck, ya'll, I guess I'll check back in in a few months.
BB B
Well, one good thing that came of this is that I re-read Ryall's book in its entirity. As far as I know, Ryall is still alive and moved to Australia, BTW.
Anyhow, some of the passages corroborate what I've stated here. "Maidens" were initiated by experienced, adult high priests from another village. This included an actual Great Rite ceremony. Young women weren't allowed to draw down the moon unless they had experience, presumably sexual, but since they did the initiation, then drew down the moon, this leads me to conclude that they had sexual relations with the HP first. Women weren't married unless they were pregnant. Young women were supposed to be "virgo intactae" to be the May Queen, so weren't allowed to participate in any other Mayday festivities. This also leads me to conclude that ritual sexuality was part of the ceremony. Unwanted pregnancy was believed to be averted by channeling the energy elsewhere.
It absolutely did NOT say anything about the age of 18, I swear it!
All of this leads me to conclude that ritual sexuality involving young people was practiced by her tradition, so the Frosts ain't the only ones writing about it. Maybe it's not "academic", as in, sanctioned by people with pieces of paper lounging in a university. _West Country Wicca_ and _Good Witches' Bible_ were both written for the popular press. That don't invalidate the material, in my eyes. In fact, if a working person wrote it, it's experiential, and therefore more likely to be true than if some highfalutin' armchair professor speculated about it. I believe Ryall over, say, Hutton. But don't get me started.
I agree, historical use don't make it right in our present society, but it DOES make it something folks did. We can accept it, or we can pretend it never happened, that witchcraft was always whitesy-lightsy and politically correct. Or we can acknowledge it and say that we don't practice these rituals any longer.
Carol -- The artifacts found in Grimes Graves included a matrika or Venus statue, and a phallus-shaped "wand", both made of chalk, along with some working mens' tools and antlers, near a worksite where flint for tools was mined. Academics are STILL arguing about their authenticity and significance.
Sari -- I think that child psychology did for child rearing and family values what labor unions did for the American workforce. Sure, now we have 8-hour days and weekends... those of us who are actually employed. We also have a horrid economy, outrageous taxes, and people who refuse to work. Well, child psychology is a nice liberal concept, too, which makes it so we can't discipline our own kids, so they feel they don't have to work, they are involved with drugs and gang violence, they have astronomical unwed pregnancy rates, many are mooching off the working people (accepting welfare) and have no self-respect. Gimme back those old pre-literate days, PLEASE!
But that's a whole 'nother argument
A.C.Aldag,
Correlation is not causation & sometimes gross oversimplifications like that amount to GIGO.
Blaming child psychology for all the ills of society is much like blaming...Paganism and Godlessness for all the ills of society.
Not only is child psychology not encapsulated within the so called child psychology field (those professionals don't "own" it), we are learning across many personal experiences and fields, but child psychology was never supposed to be about "gurus" (experts) and followers who are ill equipped to interpret and challenge/improve.
Again, audience is part of the message. We’re not alleviated of the need to know logic, integrated ethics/virtues, different power paradigms, and all those other things that mean we’re functionally response-able, proactive, and very accountable for what we do and say, or fail to do and say.
With this, I'm signing off of this thread.
So let me see if I have the players right; we have Isaac Bonwitz who is a long term Friend of the Frosts and has had financial ties to them, we have Shadowhawk who has a long term friendship and has said he will never stop defending the Frosts, and now we have Bronwyn Frost who runs portions of Gavin and Yvonne Frost’s Church and School of Wicca. My my, so many people with such a strong reason to lead folk in a certain direction.
Then there is A.J. Drew who lives relatively obscurely in my profession as a blacksmith who recently had children. That is, almost none of my customers or anyone I live around on the Ren. Fair circuit know about this argument or that I am pagan. We do not generally talk about religion. I no longer write books because I have brain damage and the royalties from my previous books are about to be turned over to a children’s charity.
Motivation? Hmmmmmm.
“This chapter describes some of the more controversial practices of the old path taught in the earliest days of the Church and School of Wicca.”
The word the Frosts used over and over again is CHILD. Here we are arguing when a girl first menstruates as if them using the word CHILD over and over again is not enough to indicate they are talking about CHILD MOLESTATION.
The above is from A Good Witches Bible. It is a confession by Gavin and Yvonne Frost that the following chapter, the one which contains what I find to be instructions to molest, intoxicate, and rape children as early as the age of 10 in the name of Wicca, was IN FACT taught by the Church and School of Wicca.
Isaac Bonewitz seems to be here defending those actions by saying: ye but hundreds of years earlier women menstruated later. I do not understand his defense as Gavin and Yvonne Frost have been clear that this was their instructions as late as the 1970s. I do not understand the argument or its basis.
When did girls start menstruating in 1972 Isaac, when the book was published. Nylon, you know the stuff that they advise making dildos out of for CHILDREN to practice with the help of their fathers to get them ready for their drunken intoxicated initiation into Wicca?
On drunken. As I recall the instruction is that they fast for three days, then drink a FULL glass of mead along with some dancing (sweating). After speaking with three doctors, I am assured this would cause intoxication in most people and virtually all young folk.
Now like I said, the only dates that matter are the ones in that book since it is obviously a modern instructional (nylon dildos Isaac). Since you like Wikipedia so much lets take a wee look at what Gavin and Yvonne Frost said about the age at which we should stretch their vagina’s with these home made nylon dildos:
“When a child develops to a stage where the physical attributes of reproduction are present, he can become a full member of the coven.”
The above quote proceeds what I find to be instructions to molest, intoxicate, and rape childr
The above quote proceeds what I find to be instructions to molest, intoxicate, and rape children. Now, lets see what Isaac Bonwitz reference Wikipedia says about puberty:
“The first physical sign of puberty in girls is usually a firm, tender lump under the center of the areola(e) of one or both breasts, occurring on average at about 10.5 years of age”.
“The average age of menarche in American girls is about 12.7 years.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Pub...ast_development
Hmmm, why would Isaac have skipped this part at Wikipedia.com? Agenda? What is he fighting for?
Isaac Bonewitz said: “So are your distortions of comments I've made about Pagan warriors, lies that Satanists and Evangelists have told about me, etc.”
About your comments on the military, ok what ever. About what Satanists and evangelists have said about you, uh what are you talking about? As Shadowhawk said the FBI was protecting someone who was speaking against the Frosts, should I just throw the Satanists and Evangelists in with the FBI as other members of this conspiracy against the Frosts and evidently now you? I am soo confused.
Concerning the Frost’s lawyer, ye ye and they are going to sue me in England. Oh my that was funny. I gave them my work address and am waiting. I love it, I speak out against them and I am robbing their Freedom of Speech. Then they send a lawyer after me for providing my opinion and the quotes to back them up. Oh that is a hoot. I am going to love going to court over this one. Hell, I am probably going to have to hire someone to document the whole thing, as it will make a great book.
Concerning Pagan Nation lackies, members of Pagan Nation often disagree with me loudly and I encourage that. Others agree with me. Stating that someone’s opinion does not count because they agree with me is a bit childish, especially coming from someone (Shadowhawk) who was welcome to speak his mind there until he started calling the moderators bitches.
Concerning book banning and freedom of speech. I have not stated Gavin and Yvonne Frost’s books should be banned or that their Freedom of Speech under US Law should be restricted to any degree other than any other Americans. I have read the Frost’s Witches Bible and its later publication as The Good Witches Bible. I am now commenting on it and protesting it.
Concerning threatening Isaac Bonewitz, I have not threatened Isaac Bonewitz in the least. I have simply stated that I would rather he not get all messed up with this, but illustrated that if he does want to continue his personal attack then I would respond in kind. Concerning Starwood, ACE, Brushwood, Sirius Rising, Pagan Pride, and other organizations which have promoted Gavin and Yvonne Frost, I have simple stated that I intend on bringing it to people’s attention that they have in fact done so. I do not think this is a threat at all.
I have always been fond of the saying there is no bad publicity. I have
I have posted the quotes to Gavin and Yvonne’s book so that people can decide for themselves:
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation....st-please-read/
If Gavin and Yvonne Frost do not like open discussion of their book, I can only imagine it is because there is something in it that they do not want people to know about. If Isaac Bonewitz and others feel threatened by my willingness to illustrate how they have supported and promoted Gavin and Yvonne Frost, then I can only imagine they feel threatened by this intent on my behalf.
All in all, it seems all I have done is comment on what other folk have done and discuss my intention to do it more and more. If folk feel threatened by this, perhaps they do not want people know what they have done.
But what I do know is that if I had not taken this path, many of you would not know what Gavin and Yvonne Frost have written and what they still support. Many of you would still see them at festivals and perhaps even believe how they are promoted. Now, it seems just about everyone on the Internet is talking about it. Thus, my will has been placed into motion.
But my how folk can twist what I am up to. Feel free to continue as the more you do, the more folk learn about what Gavin and Yvonne Frost wrote. Remember folk, they used the word child dozens of times to refer to the people who were to be initiated by sex n dildos. Is that Wicca?
More importantly, what are they all so afraid of? Little ol me? Or is it that folk might know the truth? I guess folk will decide for them selves as now they know about it and those who do not will soon.
Why do you go on like you do AJ . Do you get a sense of pride with your slander and libelous accusations.. you are a man alone in this. NO witnesses to back up your claims.. NOT ONE.. and we are going to laugh at you.. and you AJ you will cry because you will be unmasked as the fraud you are
Shadowhawk: I am simply responding to people, that is why I am going on. What is going to be unmasked? The part about the dildos made from nylon? Is that what you mean is a fraud or slander? Its in the book.
What exactly are you saying I am wrong about? The Frost's use of the word "Child"? The statement about the average age of a coven member being 15? The part about the father helping the daughter with the dildo? The part about children fasting for three days and then drinking a full glass of mead?
I am honestly confused, its all in the book so what exactly is slander or libelous?
In a later printing of the book, they said that the instructions were part of the original teachings of their Church and School of Wicca. As they say they are Wiccan, I say I believe that since they wrote the book and say it was what they called Wicca, that I believe them, I believe they did what they instruct is Wicca.
Are you saying it is slander and libelous for me to say I believe they molestated, intoxicated, and raped children? In Ohio, using a dildo on someone under the age of conscent is considered rape, so even if you leave out the sexual initiation that they instruct, well it does seem like they have given me reason to believe what I believe.
So please explain; what do you believe is slanderous or libelous?
NOWHERE in that book does it say that THEY specifically engaged in this, you need dates times places witnesses to back your accusations. If you wrote in a book that you decapitated people does it make it true. yet you continue this BS of well if its in the book they DID do it.. NO AJ at that assumption you are wrong. Ever hear of the concept of heresay evidence.. that in this case is all you have. Once you are taken to court by the Frosts you will find out exactly what the law thinks of libel.ACCUSATION WITHOUT PROOF is going to take you down.. mark my words
Questions for Mr. Drew:
I understand that you find the Frosts' writings to be repugnant, to be advocating child abuse. BUT, what proof do you have that any actual physical abuse has taken place? Their daughter Bronwyn publicly denies it. Do you have any actual evidence, or is it based on credible interviews, or is it a supposition?
Why are you advocating, and indeed actively practicing, a banishing / sacrifice against the Frosts? What do you think the ultimate result will be -- to them, to you, to Wicca in general? Do you feel this is negative magick?
Are you intending to speak out against other oldline practices, and will you suggest that writing about these practices be suppressed?
For instance: In the past, children regularly worked 14 hour days, and were issued rum in pubs, along with adults. In the recent past, children married as young as age 13. There were questionable magickal practices, too, such as sweeping negativity out your door and into someone else's house. I've written about several of these oldline rituals and spells, including herbal abortion. Should we merely ignore such practices? Should we lie to Xians and tell 'em we never did any such thing?
A.C. – The book in question is a modern day instructional. It is not, as they infer, a historic account. To date, I have never stated that Gavin and Yvonne Frost have practiced what they write about, I have only stated that I believe they have. I have stated that they promote the molestation and rape of children. Shadowhawk and others have decided that it is slander and liable for me to state my belief.
Why have I said I will be Sacrificing Gavin and Yvonne Frost in effigy at The International Real Witches Ball? Oh, dare to keep silent. It will become well known after all is done. Yes, I do think it is positive magick and yes I think the Wiccan and pagan community will greatly benefit. Not only will a very powerful message about Gavin and Yvonne Frost be made, not only will a very powerful message about community be made, a very powerful statement about what magick is and is not will be made.
On all of your other questions about oldline, the Frost’s book was published in 1972. The home made dildos were described as being made from nylon which was invented in 1935. The Frosts have stated that the contents of that chapter were the teachings of their Church. The book states that at the time, the average age of one of their early covens was 15. The book is an instructional.
So then, do I plan on attacking a piece of fiction set in prehistoric time like Clan of the Cave Bear? No. Will I attack the North American Man Boy Love Association (NAMBLA)? Yes. Will I attack Gavin and Yvonne Frost who continue to promote, offer for sale, and defend that book? Yes.
Do you not see a difference or are you buying into the lies that they were speaking historically? Read the quotes. It is a modern day instructional.
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation....st-please-read/
Shadowhawk – First I must say that I am rather shocked that you defend the Frosts for having written instructions on torturing, molesting, intoxicating, and raping children in the name of Wicca. You do not seem to argue that point. Perhaps this is because I have now proven that to you and many others because this whole argument has caused such a flurry of conversation. Thank you for the opportunity.
Now you have changed your argument to if they have or have not followed the instructions in their own book. Yes it is possible they wrote an instruction manual on practicing Wicca, called themselves Wiccan, and started a church with the word Wicca in it while not following their own teachings. It is certainly possible that Gavin and Yvonne Frost simply lied about the whole thing.
I have not said that Gavin and Yvonne Frost have been found guilty in a court of law of molesting, intoxicating, and raping children. I have said, definitively, they have taught such as part of Wicca and I have stated that I believe they are child molesters and so on. I have also stated why I believe this, because they wrote about it joyfully, because they said that such was the teachings of the Church and School of Wicca, and because at the time they said they were speaking for all Wiccans. As they call and called themselves Wiccan, my conclusion is that they follow their own teachings. I have explained this again and again.
I think it is a rational conclusion and even if it is not, I am entitled to my opinion as much as anyone is entitled to read any book and provide review of not only the book but its author(s). This is, after all, the United States of America where each citizen is guaranteed by law the right to believe as he or she will and speak / express those beliefs. I ‘believe’ Gavin and Yvonne Frost are child molesters, intoxicators, and rapists. Actually, more accurately I ‘believe’ they were. Now in so far as a statement of fact, they have instructed that folk should torture, molest, intoxicate, and rape children.
I am ready, willing, and able to bring children’s psychologists into court to prove that the instructions in that book are torture. I am ready, willing and able to quote law which states that the instructions in that book are legally considered molestation and rape. I am ready, willing and able to bring medical doctors into court which will testify that if you cause a child to fast for three days and then have them drink a full glass of mead, that they will become intoxicated.
I have provided Gavin and Yvonne Frost with my business address if they want to sue me. I posted it to their blog in fact. If they think they can find a lawyer to bring this to court, I look forward to it.
Mr. Drew, thank you for answering my questions. I don't agree with you on every point, but I appreciate you giving the answers.
One more -- if people want to attend your event, don't you think it's a good idea to let them know exactly what they are to expect?
As for "buying into the lie" that the Frosts' practices are oldline... well, I'm the one who brought that up, and I'm not lying. I made the conclusion that those practices are /were older, or resembled ancient religio-magickal ways. Not only those written about in fictional books (by authors who did research, such as Jean Auel) but in anthropology & archeology textbooks, and also from anthropological evidence I've viewed in museums, and from involvement in my own tradition. Also by the Frosts' statements that their version of the Craft is based on older folkways.
And before you ask, NO my tradition didn't involve fathers sexually initiating daughters, and NO, there weren't any phalli, made of plastic or otherwise. But other aspects of the rituals are really quite similar. I have no way to determine if the Frosts' craft is really old, or if they've simply looked at the same stuff or read about it. The fact that they got some of it wrong, makes me think that it wasn't experiential, but who knows.
I was also the one who pointed out that using a nylon implement doesn't negate its ancient use in another form... my regalia has a zipper up the back, and I seriously doubt there were zippers available in Medieval Wales. We use musk oil instead of ambergris, cuz there isn't much whale snot washing onshore here at Lake Michigan. You get the idea. Using modern equivalents for ancient tools is done by many pre-industrial cultures, in ritual and everyday life.
I heartily agree with your right to protest practices you think are illegal and morally wrong. But I disagree that doing something else morally wrong (the sacrifice / banishing) is an acceptable way to deal with it. Thank you for listening.
Continue on in your crusade Aj .It matters not. You can bring all the Doctors in the world into court you will not be villifyed.. ALSO i have never said i defend there writings in any post. I defend them as human beings to be free of slander and libel.Read the definition of slander and libel i posted further up in these comments. You say your stating beliefs .. BELIEFS are just that.. they are not facts. You believe they torture you believe they molest..so on and so forth. Beliefs are not statements of truth. Opinions are like assholes we all have them.You say you are doing this for the greater pagan community. How noble, but it still changes not the FACT that you have accused the Frosts of Rape Child Molestation and so forth.Irregardless of the passages in the GWB, which accusations such as you have made are what will take you to your knees. Do you really want to be a laughing stock and a pariah in our community.. It looks like you do
A.C. Aldag, I am confused at your stance. You have included the word banishing. Was that to indicate that you find banishings equaly imoral?
Concerning ancient practices, if they are moraly repulsive in modern times and being practiced and endorced in modern times, yes I would object to them. BTW: My boy is not circumsized and my girl's hymen is intact.
Shadowhawk - Fact not Opinion: Gavin and Yvonne Frost's Church and School of Wicca originaly instructed that Children should be tourtured, molested, intoxicated, and reped in the name of Wicca. Such teachings included the making of home made dildoes from nylon cord to be used, if need be, with the fathers assistance.
The only part of this which is opinion on my part is if they have actually done what they have joyfully wrote about. My opinion is that they have.
Whould you also defend Hitler by saying he never killed a Jew himself?
A.C. Aldag - I almost forgot, protest takes many forms. Animal rights activists go naked with signs which read I would rather be naked than wear fur. Their message then winds up on the evening news and the world hears it.
It seems my protest is working rather well as this is now being discussed all over the internet. The Frosts, their Daughter, Isaac Bonewitz, Raven Gramassi, and dozens others who were formerly silent on the subject are now chammering away.
All in all, I would have to say it has thus far been a very, very effective protest.
I think dressing up an effigy in a pointy black witch hat and pumpkin, stating that it's a living person, and then ritually sacrificing it is morally irresponsible. (Is the picture Jason has up really what it's gonna look like)? That is performing negative magick. Wouldn't a simple "Your book sucks" suffice as a protest?
I was just thinking about your quoting Crowley as the reason for why you are working your will, to effect change. Well as a Thelemite myself there is something you have left out of the equation..
Love is the Law Love UNDER will an it harm none Do what thou wilt
Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law. 2 things i see here AJ . First your will should be subject to Love, you do this not for love of your fellow pagans you do it to fill a need for revenge. Secondly What you are doing is Harming someone but in your mind 2 wrongs do make it right. DO WHAT THOU WILT.. but you better have your ducks in a row, for the magick you weave will strangle you if you dont. and on a personal note some psychiatric counseling might be appropriate for you
"Whould you also defend Hitler by saying he never killed a Jew himself?"
The great Godwin proves true once again. Lets try to back down from Hitler references, OK?
"Is the picture Jason has up really what it's gonna look like"
Most likely not, it was the best I could find as far as Witchy-looking effigies to illustrate the story. I claim no inside knowledge regarding the ritual or what the effigies will look like.
AJ, you are throwing around the word "torture" a lot. Perhaps you should define what you mean by that.
Are you referring to "The physical attributes of male and female virginity are destroyed at the youngest possible age, either by the mother or by a doctor. In the female case, the hymen is painlessly broken surgically. In the male case, the mother makes absolutely sure that the foreskin can be drawn fully back by cutting the underside attachment membrane"? With no cautions that the mother wielding the -- uh, what? Scalpel, obsidian blade, tuna can lid? -- should have any medical training, or any knowledge of how to care for the wound afterward? I think a reasonable person would consider an untrained mother doing home genital surgery as torture.
http://www.freewebs.com/controve...B/
ChapterIV.htm
Information on the frenulum, if you can handle the thought of moms cutting that on their own:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Fre...repuce_of_penis
Ms. Maltby -- I am looking at the copy of West Country Wicca that I have, published by Phoenix in 1987, and the passage that you cite is there, WITHOUT the reference to Rhiannon being eighteen years old. WHOA! I absolutely believe you that it's in your edition... I wonder if all the controversy compelled the editors to add the line about being age 18? I glanced through every passage about initiation, including the page numbers you cite... ain't there. Somebody likely prettied it up for a modern audience." -- AC Aldag (1)
Well, that's even more interesting, because I emailed Phoenix Publishing yesterday, and asked for a comment I could repeat publicly. This is what Doug Brown wrote in reply:
We produced only one edition of West Country Wicca and that was in
1989. There is no such thing as a 1987 edition. It's possible that
Rhiannon produced a few copies of the book in a simple format
(photocopies of her manuscript or something like that) and passed
them around to a few people but I don't think so. Regardless, the one
edition we produced was never changed when more copies were printed
from time to time.
Douglas A. Brown
Phoenix Publishing Inc.
The major used and rare book database of books for sale shows no copies of the book available dated before 1989.(2)
"As far as I know, Ryall is still alive and moved to Australia, BTW." -- AC Aldag (3)
You are free to believe that if you like. But I said earlier I'd seen on the net that Rhiannon Ryall was dead, Stephanie Lynch details that it was from a heart attack at age 49 sometime before June 2001(4), and Julia Day, her publisher at Capall Bann, referred to her as "Our (late) author Rhiannon Ryall" in a 2001 interview. (5)
(1) http://www.haloscan.com/comments...?
a=48468#232309
(2) http://www.addall.com/SuperRare/...&
store=Tomfolio
(3)
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...?
a=48468#232346
(4)
http://www.amazon.ca/gp/cdp/memb...y=public&
page=3
(5)
http://www.twpt.com/day.htm
Carol Maltby - I have stated earier that I have spoken to a child psychologist who assures me that she feels a father helping to stretch his daughters vagina with home made dildos of dowl rod, nylon cord, and wax amounts to tourture. She went further to sum up that the entire chapter amounts to tourture and sudgests that a child could not survive such treatment without serious mental damage.
A.C. Aldag - I have not stated that I was intending to do anything of the sort. I have a professional artist working with photographs to make life size effigies of the two. I understand they will be very lifelike.
Jason Pitzl-Waters - Concerning the Hitler comment, I did not compair the Frosts to Hitler. I compaired the desire to ignore the Frosts words to a desire to ignore Hitler's words.
In a civil and respectful conversation on this subject, Dr. Raymond Buckland chimes in with an opinion that Gavin and Yvonne Frost need to be opposed (not surprising) however, he did also add information which caught my eye. It appears that Dr. Raymond Buckland believes the Daughter of Gavin Frost is a victim of their teachings.
http://pagannation.com/ubbthread...er=53252&
page=0
Dr. Raymond Buckland said: "Incidentally, have you ever got in touch with the Frosts' daughter? She's the one who was abused; it would be interesting to get her take on it all. She's easily accessible since she acts as editor of the School of Wicca magazine."
Although it does seem like he is saying she was abused as a fact, I am not sure if that is what he means. You might want to watch the thread.
Okay, Carol, I owe you an apology about the date... I don't see very well, and my husband just read the tiny print of the copyright to me, and _West Country Wicca_ WAS published in 1989. So I apologize!
However, um, if you do the math: Ryall suggests that she was trained in the 1940s, according to the back cover of _West Country Wicca_ and within the first chapter. If she was 18 in 1949, that'd make her 58 when the book was published in 1989. If she died when she was 49, she either died nine years before the book was published, or she was a LOT younger than 18 when she was trained.
If Phoenix is saying that she might have distributed copies (which she didn't, I just screwed up the date) but anyhow, that leads me to conclude that she was still alive around the time of publication.
IF she died in 2001 at age 49, she would have been born in 1952. This just doesn't add up.
If it was "sometime before" 2001, it still doesn't jibe with the claim of training in the 40s???
I read thru the book again, only references to age I can find is that her training began as a child, and she claimed initiation began when SIXteen. And the memory of an incident when she was 39, planting according to the old ways. Sooo, if she was sixteen in 1949, she'd have been fifty-six when the book was published. If she died when she was 49, that would make it 1982 or 3. Not 2001. My head hurts now.
I wonder if Rhiannon Ryall is a craft name, and if it's possible to find out if she's still alive... cuz now I really wanna know some things.
AJ DREW you are an evil man.. now you try to tack on the supposition that the Frosts have abused there own daughter.Im fed up with you. You have lost all credibillity . I sincerely and truely hope that all manner of ill befalls you. You are shameless and disgusting. I have watched you duck many questions just to keep reiterating you bullshit stance on this. The effigy i hope that burns is YOU MR DREW.
Hutton in his TOTM p 301-2 basically claims that Rhiannon Ryall made her story up to support her own unique brand of Wicca.
Shadowhawk...the Frosts will not go thru with any suit because of the nature of civil court. Its doubtful given the written evidence that they can convince a jury that AJ Drew is blameworthy with a perdonderous of the evidence. They may even side with him. The point is given the written evidence can a reasonable person believe AJ claims? Given the absense of retraction and continues publication, what would a jury of your neigbors think?
AJ Drew on PaganNation.com seems to be unavailable for some reason. His posts have simply disappeared. Has he been booted from him own server?
Pannekoek, most of my posts are still available at Pagannation.com As the webmaster, I felt my battle against the Frosts were being represented as a Pagan Nation issue and not an A.J. Drew issue so I have have closed my personal forum and am moving my discussion to my personal blog at ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com.
Personal blogs are afforded to all of our members. Forums are not. Thus, taking the action seems like the logical thing to do.
My latest entry details how the man convicted as being University of South Carolina Rapist, was once not only a member of Gavin and Yvonne Frost's Church and School of Wicca, he ran a chartered church of theirs for some time.
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation....ist-the-frosts/
Shadowhawk – I will continue to try to have a civil conversation with you. First, it was Dr. Raymond Buckland who made the statement. I relayed it here as part of the discussion. However, as you seem deeply offended that I would do so, let me assure you that I have because I think it is very likely that Gavin Frost raped or at least made available for raping, his daughter for the following reasons:
Alison Jocely Brownyn Frost (lots of other aka on this person, so I hope you know I mean) was born in 1969 from what I can tell. It was around time that Gavin Frost was having difficulty getting the Witches Bible published and used its content as the teachings of the Church and School of Wicca. In 1972 the book was published and contained clear instructions for a father to help his daughter to stretch her vagina with home made dildos of various sizes to make her ready for sexual initiation by another man. In the State of Ohio, my state of record, that alone seems enough to constitute a charge of rape if the child in question is young enough.
Now in 2007, Gavin Frost has made a rather clear statement defending the practice of breaking a young girls hymen to make her ready for sex (discussed in that book) and while he has had many opportunities to issue an apology for the contents of that book, I do not know of any.
I do believe Dr. Raymond Buckland is right and Brownyn (the name she most often uses in the pagan community) has been abused. But I do not believe this because Dr. Raymond Buckland made reference to it. I believe it because Gavin Frost wrote that such is what a Wiccan does to a Wiccan child, because Gavin Frost claims to be Wiccan, and because she was a child at the time Gavin Frost himself said that such was the teachings of the Church and School of Wicca.
I do wish her well and hope that if I am right and she is the victim of child molestation that she not only come forward, but seek the counseling and recovery that any victim of such crimes requires. Brownyn, I salute you for surviving thus far, but now it might be time to think of the others that you might be able to help.
On a final note, I am wondering why it is that Gavin and Yvonne Frost are only ever mentioned to have one child.
That the Frost and Bonewits pro-active
stance about helping bust John Todd worked is pretty obvious. What is not so clear is why Todd didn't try to take the Frosts down with him, in revenge. Maybe he was just too unstable?
Had the police and FBI been aware of the instructions for initating children in The Witch's Bible,, you'd think they would follow that idea back up the chain, to learn that a teacher/priest whose offshoot coven has a taste for underage sex has been advocating sex with underage children himself.
Maybe it looks clear in nindsight, but at the time they didn't think to question the Frosts harder, or didn't know what were the important questions to ask under the circumstances.
Of course, if AJ is sued, I'm sure his lawyer will subpoena the records in that case.
Todd not only did try to take the Frosts down with him, he later made a career out of it. The thing is, he went so far as to fabricate information. Well, that or John F. Kennedy is still alive and working for Gavin and Yvonne Frost or some such thing.
Pannekoek -- Dr. Hutton made quite a few mistakes in _Triumph_ and his other works, and he doesn't use any information but documented sources. No interviews, no local narratives on artifacts, just the written opinions of academics. But Max Dashu and Donald Hudson Frew can argue those issues much better than I. With pretty pictures.
Some of Dr. Hutton's conclusions are obviously those of a desk-jockey, and not a working-class person. Such as his opinion that the Cerne Abbas giant (Rude Man) was created in the 1800s as a prank against the monestary on the next hill over. That's cuz Mr. Giant didn't appear in any written literature prior. Sooo, a bunch of guys with plow teams took all day to carve the giant, busting turf all the way... and nobody local even noticed. Either that, or it took one guy with a four-in-hand a couple weeks... and nobody saw him do it. Riiiight. Dr. Hutton has made an industry out of his assertion that there aren't any oldline people left, that the old ways died out in the 1500s.
But I digress.
Why wouldn't Bronwyn come forward, why is she denying that a sexual initiation took place? Was Dr. Buckland there, or was it a speculation? Is she in denial, is she disgusted by today's culture of victimization... or did *nothing* really happen to her? She was here, stating that the allegations were false. Why would she lie?
Why didn't the FBI, in the middle of the Satanic Panic years, investigate and prosecute an instance of child molestation? Were they slacking, or wasn't there any concrete evidence? They busted Mr. Todd, right, why wouldn't they go after the Frosts? Is their magick that powerful, or was there just simply no case?
IMHO: Writing about rape isn't any more illegal that writing about murder.
IMHO: Nobody can sue anyone in a civil court, for slander or libel, unless they can prove loss of income and damage to reputation resulting in social alienation.
IMHO: (Backed by research) When writing "What's really old, and what likely ain't", I found hundreds of oldline Pagan customs that still exist, that are / were continuous, that retained all or most of their Pagan elements, or that existed right up to the 1940s. Including sexual initiations. Including those involving minors, because in ancient times, you were a child, and then at puberty, booom, you were an adult, no prolonged adolescence. Kids went to sea at age 12, to war at age 14, got married at 13, owned property by 16. Went into their parents' professions. Had kids. Worked in dangerous factories.
I didn't write about any of the sexual initiations or practices(other than refuting the notion that matrikas were used to cut hymens)because "What's really old" was intended for a family audience. My kids read it, and went "Eeuw" at anything gross. But _Good Witch's Bible_ wasn't really intended for a family audience, was it?
AC Aldag said – “Why wouldn't Bronwyn come forward, why is she denying that a sexual initiation took place? ”
I am at a loss for the medical / psychological term that could easily explain it. I am also at a loss for the young man who was recently in the news seeming to demonstrate that syndrome. However, I am sure folk will remember a young man being kidnapped and then seeming to live free as a bird with his abuser. He even kept a public blog, spent the night with neighbors, and so on… but nobody seemed to notice. The abuse went on for years. That is, until a second boy was abused and the first was discovered via the investigation of the second. I apologize for not remembering the names or the details of the story. I suffer from a wee bit of brain damage which, in part, affects my short term memory being able to transfer things into long term memory.
AC Aldag said - “Nobody can sue anyone in a civil court, for slander or libel, unless they can prove loss of income and damage to reputation resulting in social alienation.”
Actually, as we are speaking about one published author and public figure (myself) and not only other authors and public figures, but a public organization, school, and church; there is quite a lot more than such proof. The Supreme Court of the United States of America has been consistent in ruling that Freedom of Speech was not intended to protect the individual alone, but society as a whole.
If Gavin and Yvonne Frost were private individuals, I would probably have trouble with stating publicly that I believe they have tortured, molested, intoxicated, and raped children in the name of Wicca. However, as the are not only public figures and published authors, but the very founders of the institution I take issue with, using the threat of civil suit to cause my Freedom of Speech to be silenced would have to be balanced by a question of the public good. Do I serve the public good by bringing these things into question? Not only do I believe I can prove everything I say is true, I believe even if I could not that there is a bulk of evidence (the book and the Frosts refusal to recant or even talk about it) which demonstrates that I have in fact acted in the greater public good. Well, unless you think that the current Supreme Court is child molester positive.
P.S. On having kids at such an early age, not according to Isaac Bonewitz. According to his posts, females didnt menstruate early enough until reciently for you to be correct on that one. Oh, I agree with you. Just pointing it out.
Bronwyn Frost said: "...there is no way Gavin and Yvonne could have gotten away with this behavior if it were actually pursued."
I have read and reread her post. One might think she would deny that she had been initiated or is aware of initiations of children in accodance with the book in question.
Well, it looks like maybe now they are being pursued depending on what that word means. I am certianly in persuit of the truth.
Bronwyn Frost - Were you initiated in any accordance with the instructions in the book in question? Do you know of children who were initiated thus? Do you know of anyone who has claimed they were?
One Warning - An officer of a 501 c 3 who lies about that organization publicly might be causing some rather large problems with the IRS.
Now then, could you pulicly answer my questions directly?
If the Frosts' publicity material says they have taken a vow of poverty, I'd think it unlikely that they could sue for loss of income.
AJ, did you put that Ellen Evert Hopman interview up anywhere else? I don't see it on the URL I'd bookmarked, and there were a couple of ambiguities I wanted to explore.
Now Aj it looks like with your calling out Bronwynn to aid you in your little fiasco that your arguments are crumbling. You are fishing for anything that you feel will aid you.. Personally Bronwynn shouldnt even give you time of day , all you will do is twist whatever she says to fit your warped view of TRUTH .. that makes me laugh. And from what i saw on Pagannation.. Buckland DOES NOT support you in this, you twist what he has said.. You are not all as buddy buddy with him as you think. Your support structures are crumbling around you. I wonder what you have in store for us in your next installment. And yes there are ways to view Pagannation even after i was booted.. So now what.. The ball is in your court, do you have any fresh material. Or are you just gonna bore us with the same song and dance
Carol Maltby - Well they did say that they could eat a few meals on their royalties from one of their books. Maybe they are concerned about that loss.
I think I missed something, did I post an interview with Ellen Evert Hopman somewhere?
Shadowhawk, ah new strategy on your part. Say my strategy is crumbling and thus it must be.
Pagan Nation is a publicly viewable site, why would you imply it is some secret what is there. I even provided a link to the forum where he made his statement above. But now here you are implying it is a secret?
Dr. Buckland does not like the burning in effigy idea and I thought I was rather open by including the link to his statements about it. He is also rather opposed to Gavin and Yvonne Frost's writtings and withdrew his offered endorcement of their book after he and I discussed it openly.
So what exactly are you arguing? Oh ye, the whole my support structure is crumbling / their magick is heep more powerful / this clan that clan. Oh, I get it well I am not afraid cause I got me a 10+ chaotic good shield of doom (or what ever the heck your roll playing game uses today).
I am not interested in what ever it is that you are rambling about, my personal life, my career, what ever. I am interested in discussing and brining into light what Gavin and Yvonne Frost have written and have promoted.
Do you think that maybe in their support, you could discuss that or are you just going to continue to start side arguements?
Concerning Shadowhawks stated opininion on my relationship with Dr. Raymond Buckland and his stated opinions, when I quoted Dr. Buckland I provided a link to the public forum where anyone can read the quotes in context:
http://pagannation.com/ubbthreads.php
/ubb/showthreaded/Number/52420/page/
Dr. Raymond Buckland said: "...you've made a great statement, AJ, and something does need to be done. But it's how to do it."
We were talking about Gavin and Yvonne Frost and De-Frosting (can't remember who coined that phrase), so he obviously feels as do I that (in the words of Dr. Raymond Buckland) "something does need to be done."
He also makes it clear that he does not like what he believes I am planning on doing. However, he discusses it in a very civil and friendly manner as I have known him to do most all of the time.
Dr. Raymond Buckland said: "Incidentally, have you ever got in touch with the Frosts' daughter? She's the one who was abused; it would be interesting to get her take on it all. She's easily accessible since she acts as editor of the School of Wicca magazine."
Dr. Raymond Buckland and myself have enjoyed civil discussions and exchange for some years now. He was even the victim of a roast at which I was the MC last year.
I am growing tired of Shadowhawks constant attempt to go elsewhere with this conversation. I have said that Gavin and Yvonne Frost have promoted what they did, I have provided the quotes, I am researchign and presenting more. If he or others would like to discuss that matter, i am more than happy to discuss it.
However, the rather childish arguements and outbursts do not seem t be very constructing to finding the truth or discussing things.
And Aj i get tired of you messing with the Lives of people i care about.. So now what.. Your accusations of torture and molestation arent a delightful romp in the fields . I sincerely think you have become obsessed and that is not a healthy mental state, And you dont want to find truth you wish to make your point so it can be OH LOOK AT ME IM AJ DREW IM A PAGAN SAINT LOOK HOW I GOT RID OF THE BIG BAD FROSTS. AJ you are a pathetic pathetic man. And as far as the truth you seek from Bronwynn Frost, she isnt going to give you one bit of it So i suggest you just take your meds and let the rest of the pagan community at large go on about its business. And if you dont like me then dont respond to my posts
Shadowhawk said: "And as far as the truth you seek from Bronwynn Frost, she isnt going to give you one bit of it"
It does seem like people closes to Gavin Frost do not want to discuss the matter. Why is it that you do not want to discuss what is in that book? Why is it you think Bronwynn Frost won't give me one bit of truth?
I would think authors would welcome discussion of their published works. Heck, Isaac Bonewitz said Gavin included the material so that people would talk and think about it. Unless Isaac is lying, all I am doing is what Gavin Frost stated he wanted folk to do. I am talking and thinking about it.
Shadowhawk said: "And you dont want to find truth you wish to make your point so it can be OH LOOK AT ME IM AJ DREW IM A PAGAN SAINT LOOK HOW I GOT RID OF THE BIG BAD FROSTS."
If I do not illustrate truth, how would it be that I could be responsible for getting rid of the big bad Frosts? Do you believe folk in the pagan community can not decide for themselves based on the book in question? After all, I am providing quotes and they can purchase the thing to confirm those quotes are in context.
Next, as I just mentioned it would be impossible to drive the Frosts from the pagan community without first illustrating the truth to the pagan community, what would be wrong with being known as the person who did so?
I think people should take pride in their work and talk about deeds done well. Is my motivation to make money, oh plese. Look at my posts and my blog and tell me if you think I can write professionaly. I am done as an author. I even need my wife to help in the forums as I have trouble reading. My pagan website is free, so that can't be the angle. Ah but pride in a job done well, yes I will give you that.
I feel what Gavin and Yvonne Frost have done needs to be pointed out to our community. I feel many have intentionaly overlooked it and are deliberatly covering it up. I believe they are promoted by pagan festivals, authors, and publishign houses. I am standing up to them and most authors are either remaining silent or standing against me.
So yes, if the word gets out and tides turn I will boast a bit. Nothing to hide in that. I might even right a song about it.
I've been disturbed that someone of Chas Clifton's stature in this community has been treating this as a joke for years. This time around he was either lying or ignorant about whether the passages in question had still been in print decades after the original edition. He equated this non-fiction book with the subtitle "How to Practice the Oldest Religion" that's been in print off and on for almost 30 years with some novel about group sex that they'd written that pretty much disappeared without a trace. Chas then claims it was hypothetical, though Gavin and Yvonne say very specifically about the child sex initiation that that is how they practiced the Craft in the early years.(1)
It turns out that Chas also got a big yuck out of this issue here in 2004:
I must say that I've known the Frosts for years and they've always gotten a lot of sorcerous amusement from the Great Dildo Controversy, which, like much else they wrote, was set out there to see if people would (a) actually _do_ it and (b) what would happen then. (2)
Hey, that's a real good question: if someone did actually follow the Frosts' meticulously detailed instructions for initating a pre-teen child into a Church of Wicca coven, what would happen then?
Then you'd have a little girl (probably under the age of 14) who was raped by the member of the coven who had the least experience as a Wiccan, and was possibly molested with a dildo by her father beforehand. That's what would happen.
For a boy child, if his parents actually did what Gavin and Yvonne Frost (who present themselves as both teachers and clergy) state they should do, his mother (no medical training needed) would take some sort of sharp instrument (what kind? How to sterilize? Oops, the Frosts didn't say!) and cut the frenulum, the most sensitive part of his penis. That's what would happen.
Chas, I'd like you to give some serious thought to your ability to spot friendly people who are lying about sex with kids. After all, it was in your 1996 book Living Between Two Worlds (in your excellent Witchcraft Today series) that you published an article by Paul Suliin, who I remember as being an exemplary member of the forum you and I belonged to at the time. Paul's now listed on the National Sex Offender Public Registry. Put his name in for California, and it comes up for "Lewd or lascivious acts with child under 14 years." (3)
If our longtime common friend (the priestess) passes through your area, ask her about that piece she wrote on our Duty of Care. She's big on that.
Carol
(1)http://www.haloscan.com/comments/jasonpitzl/
1808692917004447627/#231688
(2)
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...7393228/
#145213
(3)
http://www.nsopr.gov
Carol Maltby - Concerning Chas Clifton explination that it was all a joke, that more than anything else is my outrage. Not just Mr. Clifton's opinions, but the opinions of folk like Patricia Telesco, Isaac Bonewitz, Oberon Zell and so many others my head spins. Author after author, festival after festival treat it as if it were nothing, a joke, something we should just overlook.
The authors who stood up to the Frosts, Dr. Leo Martello, Herman Slater, and their kind have faded and have been almost forgotten. Men and women who would take a stand, all but gone. All but forgotten.
What does this say of our community?
You act as if you own it Aj .. But do you really.. All you are doing is trying to mold the Craft community into your own little image of it. Dare anybody say anything against you in the process. Cant have that now can we. Other than being a hack writer and now this little crusade of yours what have you done. I see not a damn thing. You host a yearly Witches Ball once again not a big deal Witches Balls happen allover. Are you prepared for the backlash that karma is going to bring to you. Who died and made you the judge of how the craft community should be certainly not me. Have you thought about what will happen if the Frosts sue you over this and they win . And really is there just a hint of derision over the fact that all of the well known Craft Elders/Authors such as Isaac and Trish Telesco , and now Ann Moura and so on ,plus the long time well established pagan festovals are shying away from you. After Samhain i have a feeling your going to be living in a very small and unfriendly world
Shadowhawk, how about you join this conversation under your real name, so you can take responsibility for your words?
Due to the increasingly personal and attacking nature of some posts on this thread, I have enabled moderation on all comments. This means that your comments may not appear immediately, so please don't re-submit them after posting them once.
I didn't want to intervene in this discussion since I feel its important one to have, but I feel my hand has been forced.
This conversation can continue, but please think (and re-read) before you post.
To reiterate, all insults, insinuations, and mud-flinging will now stop.
Okay, last post on the subject, because I think this ain't getting us anywhere but angry. No more he said, she said... just THIS:
I believe that using a photograph or image of a real, live breathing human person to create a poppet, effigy or other realistic likeness of that person, for the purpose of banishing, casting out, sacrificing or otherwise harming that person, is a really bad, potentially baneful, and likely harmful use of magick.
Especially at Nos Galen Gwaf / Samhaine / Hallows... the most powerful time for ghostmaking.
I think there are much better ways to effect a protest, including denouncing someone's words or books in forums like this one. Stating that you disagree with their practice, and why. This is a positive use of will and word. Sue them if you think you can win. Call them out. Even work magick so that their words can't bring any harm into manifestation.
Hopefully, Mr. Drew, you will rethink your sacrifice ritual, and not perform it at your event.
Instead you might ask your Deity that the Frosts not harm anyone, that any harm they may have done cease and negative actions be reversed. But please don't do the effigy ceremony. This has the potential to harm not only the Frosts, but everyone present at the gathering. And to spill over on you. Energy is strongest at its origin, as I'm sure you know.
You might think hey, I haven't anything to lose if I get the big cosmic smackdown, as long as my enemy goes down with me. BUT, wouldln't it suck if you had a stroke, or something? And think of all the other people present, too.
This ain't a threat, or anything, just the same as I would do if I saw anybody else about to unknowingly step off a train trestle. Please don't do it.
So im to assume it seems that my posting is no longer allowed here. Or am i wrong ..?
A.C. Aldag – I agree that such is a harmful form of magick. However, I do not believe there is anything innately wrong with causing harm I believe negotiations should precede war, however without the real threat of war such negations would be impotent. I have exhausted all avenues of negotiation and my attempts at resolving this matter without such magical weapons is well documented, even in this very forum.
The Sacrifice to Caring will go on exactly as planned from the very beginning. However, as only the ritual staff is aware of the plans, you will not possibly be able to know this unless my original plans were to do as the rumors and innuendoes on the Internet have stated.
About your concern that if I attack my enemy I might be harmed by X, Y, or Z; If I believed magic worked that way, it would not concern me because that is the nature of war; there are risks (even of friendly fire). However, I do not believe that is how magick works at all. I believe magick is real, hence part of the real world. I believe magick is natural, hence part of the natural world. I see no reason to create artificial rules or laws for the supernatural when I do not believe the supernatural exists. All things are natural, so all things are governed by natural law.
At first glance, Natural law seems rather cold and cruel. It states, in part, that through conflict the fittest shall prevail and thrive and the weak shall fall and die. It is the process by which we have evolved these many years, natural / sexual selection, the strong shall breed. When applied to the exchange of ideas and words (an act of magick in and of itself) we see that what is really at hand here is natural law in play. I have simply placed the ideas presented in The Witches Bible in direct conflict with my stated ideas in such a way as to cause social evolution within the pagan community to take place. Now, you and others battle it out and the fittest ideas will prevail.
Yes, my actions do seem a wee bit apart from the actions of most Wiccans, but I am not most Wiccans. I have not bought into the lie that one should not make waves. If Wicca is a nature-based religion, we should look to nature to see how conflicts are settled. In nature, conflicts are settled, they are not just ignored. That conflict is called evolution.
It is as it is.
PS. Sorry to see you leave the conversation after the webmaster banned what he banned.
I feel like this whole thing is taking on the tone of Rush Limbaugh and other Right Wing "Journalists" who use issues to further thier own paycheck.
Given time,anyone can find a topic that no one wants to (or dares to)disagree with and use it to sell books,or get attention,or sell tickets to a event.
I don't like what the frosts wrote,and if they have committed a crime,they should be brought to justice-absolutely. No arguments from me.
Would I reccomend the Frosts books to anyone..not on your life.
On the other hand, I also don't care for the way this was brought to light by A.J.Drew.
I certainly don't remember seeing this on Witchvox or remember any Pagan Magazine covering this before.
(If I am wrong,please point it out,and I am not referring to "Pagan Nation" when I say "Public Forum")
I hope that we don't have to have serious discussions in the pagan community that are always preceeded by P.T.Barnum Theatrics to sell tickets to an event.
If that's the way we get dialogue going..then it's a sad commentary on the state of the Pagan Community,whatever that is anyway.
With the mobilization of the Christian right(Check the news),do we really need any more division,name calling, and Witch Wars Paganism than we have already?
Do we?
"This way to the Egress"- indeed.
Jason (our host) wrote...
Due to the increasingly personal and attacking nature of some posts on this thread, I have enabled moderation on all comments."
and
"To reiterate, all insults, insinuations, and mud-flinging will now stop."
and Shadowhawk wrote...
"So im to assume it seems that my posting is no longer allowed here. Or am i wrong ..?"
Shadowhawk, if even you condsider your posts to qualify as insulting, insinuative, and mud-flinging why are you writting what you write? As a friend to the Frosts?
I would think the bonds of friendship would be much better served by a reasoned discussion of their writtings and what responsibility they bare for them and of Mr. Drew's writtings on the topic and his intended actions.
Not knowing what sort of a ritual he is planning, other than his statement that he will be sacrificing them in effigy, I have trouble commenting on it except to say it sounds like a harmful working.
Mr. Drew...
As a self-innitiated witch who has always striven to follow the path of Wicca I have no problem causing waves. Indeed I believe that the point in the Valientean Charge of the Goddess where it says...
"Keep pure your highest ideal; strive ever towards it; let nothing stop you or turn you aside."
...Requires one to speak up and work against injustice and evil in all their forms. I am just not sure if you are doing so in the most constructive manner.
Peace,
Pax
To be 100 percent clear i am not defending there writing.i am defending them as people. And yes feelings do run high..but in the end i apologize for nothing ive said..it is how i feel . All i can say is once Samhain has come and passed all those involved will know and feel the effects of this. Some good for some people , some bad for others. My point i made WAYY up in the comments section i said.. There are better ways to handle this. But in that instance Mr Drew chooses not to listen or entertain the idea.. Is that my fault.. I dont think so
Let the Hammer fall
This has been such a sad thread. Sad because the two main issues have been shoved aside time and again.
The focus has been on do you like so-and-so? If so defend him/them. Not talking about the actions that those people have or will take.
1. Is "sacrificing in effigy" a valid/correct thing for Wiccans to do?
Is there ever a circumstance in which you would support someone doing that?
If you don't support it, what should be done (if anything) about those who do "sacrifice in effigy"?
2. Is writing a "how-to" on engaging in sexual acts with minors to Initate them into a coven something that Wiccans should stand behind behind and endorse?
If it isn't, what do you think should be done (if anything at all) about those who write about or support engaging in sex with minors during Initation/Ritual?
Pax - Thank you. I can not provide the full details of the rite at this time as that would spoil the surprise. Do not open till Samhain n all. However, I will say that the rite will take place exactly as planned and I will probably post the video and transcripts when it is over.
I think you will be pleased.
Cara - As the rite in question was never stated to be Wiccan, are you also asking if Wiccans should do something about Animal Sacrifices in a Santerian rite?
In the magazine article, I went out of my way to state that the rite was not Wiccan and that it would be the first publicly performed rite of an entirly new path (note, not religion or tradition but path).
If question 1 is valid of this rite, then it seems you are asking too if Wiccans should do something about Asatru folk who practice animal sacrifices, Z. Budapest who writes about killing rapists in effigy, and so on.
Question 1 becomes should Wicca be the morality police force of the pagan community.
Question 2, on the other hand, is what should Wiccans do about folk who have claimed something is Wicca. That does seem different.
Carol,
I don't know if Mr. Drew (may I call you A.J. btw?) IS a Wiccan. He is soon to debut a tradition he labels as Familial Heathenry or the Familial Heathen path... what little I know of Asatruar magick, those that practice it, is that there is no "Harm None" injunction. Mind you since we don't actually know the specifics of the ritual much of this sometimes heated discussion could be moot.
Peace,
Pax
"Carol, I don't know if Mr. Drew (may I call you A.J. btw?) IS a Wiccan. He is soon to debut a tradition he labels as Familial Heathenry or the Familial Heathen path... what little I know of Asatruar magick, those that practice it, is that there is no "Harm None" injunction." -- Pax
Pax, are you maybe responding to something that Cara wrote, rather than Carol? My mentors tend to advise that even well-intentioned magick meant for healing should not be directed at someone without their permission. Serious illness can sometimes lead to personal growth in a way that other teachings never managed to penetrate.
Perhaps I've missed it, but I don't think I've yet heard anyone offering up the idea that healing for the perpetrators of sexual abuse is something that is needed too. A high proportion of abusers were abused themselves as children.
Binding abusers or alleged abusers while leaving their hearts, souls and minds twisted is not much progress.
AJ wrote: As the rite in question was never stated to be Wiccan, are you also asking if Wiccans should do something about Animal Sacrifices in a Santerian rite?
Cara: Ahh....sorry...I didn't see that. Thank you for clarifiying. I understood the Witches Ball to be more of a Wiccan/Witch event and understood yourself and the Frosts to be Wiccans and/or witches and that Wiccans follow the Rede. That it was a question of your actions (possibly) being in conflict with the Rede that was causing people to feel unhappy about what you are propsing.
As a HR I have zero problem with sacrifice and I don't follow the Rede, so I was trying to figure out what Wiccans/witches thought about this since it seemed to be more in their area than in General Pagandom.
Actually that last post should be Cara... sorry fighting off some insane schedules and a sinus ick recently... got poster names mixed up... Sorry Cara!
Peace,
Pax
Pax - I actually prefer A.J. My point in stating that the ritual was not Wiccan was not to say I am not Wiccan. I think a Wiccan can go bowling without converting to bowlingism. It was such that folk would not insinuate that the rite was a Wiccan rite.
Cara - Despite what publishers seem intent on claiming, the word Wicca and the word Witch are not synonomous at all. There are many who call themselves Witches who are not Wiccan. I do call myself Wiccan, however I do not buy into the mindless interpretation of the Wiccan Rede that so many seem to do. Wicca teaches that a person must think for ones self and not blindly follow. I am doing just that.
But the issue, as I see it, in Wicca is not A.J. Drew or what I intend to do. That was just a vehicle to bring this to light. The issue is just what is Wicca? Is it a fertility religion as we claim? Is it a family religion as we claim? Is it that thing which we tell parents is not baneful to children as we claim? Is it all these wonderful things that we claim?
Or is it a place where teachings like those found in that book are not only welcomed, but promoted by such organizations as Pagan Pride, Starwood, Sirius Rising, Brushwood, and so on and so forth?
The real question is not if I am two faced becasue I decide to use my heart to interpret the Wiccan Rede, but if the Wiccan community itself is two faced for using its mind, for not taking an action, and for tollerating the Frosts for these many years.
An it harm none, do as ye will (or its other various incarnations)?
If you decide not to take an action, I say you have taken an action.
Thus, by doing nothing, by ignoring the Frosts we all become guilty of causing any harm that they have done.
...if I am to be judged, I would rather it be for my actions than for my inactions.
Why wouldn't someone come forward to report childhood sexual abuse?
One problem that discussing Gavin and Yvonne Frost's writings has illuminated here is what seems to be a disturbing and pervasive lack of understanding of how sexual abuse could affect its victims.
Sexual abuse by a parent or member of the clergy is not just a sexual abuse. It's an abuse of trust, an abuse of emotions as well as the body, that can take many years to heal. How childhood abuse affects the adults those children become is something those of you in leadership positions in a coven, or in the greater Pagan community, need to know, because there are so many members of that community with that as part of their history. For those of you who aren't leaders in the community, these are your fellow Pagans.
If a child was abused in one of the Church of Wicca's covens that was taught the practice of ritual sex initiation, her situation is far more dangerous than that of others who might be abused by a single priest or parent in private. The more people involved, the more chance of getting caught, the more incentive to make sure that doesn't happen.
In addition to the toxic family secrets of family incest, you have the secret practice of Wicca. Each of the parents and coven members could be charged with being an accessory to rape
Consider what Shelley Rabinovitch, a professor at the University of Ottawa, says in her paper "Heal the Universe and Heal the Self: Batteson's Double-Bind and North American Wiccan Practice."
http://web.uni-marburg.de/
religi...abinovitch.html
Rabinovitch observes that the Neo-Pagan way of using magick is one that is highly empowering and healing for the practitioner. Yet she was shocked to see that almost all the Neo-Pagan women she interviewed (originally 39 of 40) described childhoods of physical, emotional, or sexual abuse. Over the years I've become acquainted with a lot of women who are survivors of childhood sexual abuse (primarily incest), Craft or otherwise.
If practice of a Neo-Pagan religion in adulthood is something that heals abuse, where does someone who is abused in a Neo-Pagan family turn to for healing? [cont'd]
[cont'd, part two]
Let's look at who would have been involved in the child's rape, as practiced by the Church of Wicca in their early years (date of the Frosts changing the age of the initiate from attainment of puberty to 18 in their books and correspondence courses is still unknown).
Under the Church of Wicca initiation instructions published by Gavin and Yvonne Frost, you start with the mother doing amateur genital surgery on a son, and the father committing incest with a daughter (the mother complicit), or handing her over to her "sponsor" to abuse her with dildos before her official rape in her initiation ritual. You have the flamen and flamenca arranging this statutory rape, the sponsors carrying out the rape, and the other coveners as accessories to the rape.
In addition to this organized ritual rape at the coven level, you have the Church of Wicca hierarchy who are responsible for the written teachings of their church: Gavin and Yvonne Frost as Archbishop and Bishop, and at very least the 3rd person that would be needed for the coven's Board of Directors under 501(c)3 regulations. Beyond that there are the Church of Wicca's supporters in the greater world (a number of whom are well-known and respected), and the large Pagan festivals and conferences that kept inviting Gavin and Yvonne back to lecture and do workshops. That's a lot for a kid to be up against, and likely to be quite intimidating for the adult he or she would become.
We're up to 8 adults so far, hypothetically involved in this rape of a child around the age of 12 -- all highly motivated to keep him or her from speaking out.
Then there's the problem that a child might actually believe in the religion she's been raised in, no matter how abusive her initiation, and her desire not to cut herself off from the positive aspects of her religious practice.
How many children might this have happened to? Not necessarily that many. We don't have any verifiable information about whether single adults would be more likely to be attracted to something like the Church of Wicca in those days, and those couples with children might not have children of the right age during their time with the coven. We've seen figures of 40,000 to 100,000 students of the Frosts, but Isaac says few of those go on within the tradition, leaving us with no number we can trust. I've seen a single mention on a forum posting regarding something the Frosts had supposedly written about a "children's circle," but without independent sourcing on that I can't take it further.
But of course we're unlikely to know, given the secretive nature of the Church of Wicca, its triumph over the US givernment in regards to record-keeping, and the credibility of whatever information Gavin and Yvonne Frost might give out.
[cont'd, part three]
Why would someone not tell about sexual abuse?
This article gives some of the reasons: "It is common that victims deny that the sexual abuse ever took place... Many victims experience the abuse situation as intimidating and threatening. After the abuse, many of the children feel very dirty, both on the inside and on the outside of the body. They also experience feelings of shame and self-contempt. This may afterwards be incorporated in the victim's self-image, and they can feel that they deserve that kind of treatment... Feelings of treachery and betrayal are common when the child realizes that a person they thought they could trust, and that they have been depending on, has let them down. Moreover, the child is totally powerless against the adult, and has been molested and used against their will. If the child has unsuccessfully tried to tell someone about the abuse, this feeling of powerlessness may become even more evident... Children, like adults, can in general have difficulties talking about sexuality. They can also be afraid that they will not be believed or they may feel threatened by the perpetrator. Through telling about the incest the children can lose the last bit of safety they have left, and they definitely do not want to break up the family."
http://web4health.info/en/answer...cest-
victim.htm
Joe Fox discusses some of the reasons in his article "Why the Adult Incest Survivor Should Tell."
http://www.gentletouchsweb.com/h...me2/
index1.html
At this stage, absence of proof is not proof of absence. If Chas and Isaac are correct, that the Frosts were not being truthful about Church of Wicca's practices as published and reprinted by the Frosts for years, then the question becomes this: If their friends use this example to show that Gavin and Yvonne are liars, then which of the Frosts' statements can we believe?
Bronwyn Frost says in this thread, "this is the best source you are going to get regarding my parents."
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...4447627/
#232343
That's too bad, because it is really not much at all. The claims about what Gavin allegedly said he meant that Isaac Bonewits and Chas Clifton offer conflict with Gavin and Yvonne's written statement that they taught methods of incest and sexual initiation in the early years of the Church and School of Wicca.
"Their daughter Bronwyn publicly denies it." -- AC Aldag
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...4447627/
#232388
Read what she actually says. Bronwyn doesn't actually make any "I" statements above, just rambles around about their family being under so much scrutiny all her life. What she means by statements like "They have a hard time imagining that Metallica caused Columbine" is anyone's guess, and just further muddies the waters. At any rate, Bronwyn is just posting on a forum (I think it's her, but names and URLs and IPs can be spoofed), so you can take her uncorroborated words as you will. If the Frosts go through with a lawsuit, they all will be questioned while under oath in a court of law.
Gavin and Yvonne were writing and teaching their instructions on how to sexually initiate a child in the name of Wicca when Bronwyn was an infant. Bronwyn has no authority to speak for that time, or to speak for the experiences of any other person. According to their biography at controverscial.com [sic], Gavin had a boy and a girl with his first wife Dorothy Whitford sometime before 1966, and Bronwyn was born in 1969. What was a father of three young children doing writing a non-fiction book in which he advocated incest and ritual sex with children?
"The DD? No, I don't know where it comes from but it's not the ULC [Universal Life Church]." -- Bronwyn Frost
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...4447627/
#232388
Gerina Dunwich, in her 2001 book The Modern Witch's Complete Sourcebook, says that the Frosts' DD (Doctor of Divinity) degrees came from.... The Church of Wicca! If that is true, they've both fraudulently claimed that academic degree as a way to enhance their credibility and authority since at least 1976.
Bronwyn Frost is the webmaster of her parents' website, where the Frosts brag that she has not answered an email in over a year. She is willing to speak for them and the Church and School of Wicca. Yet she doesn't know her parents well enough to know where the bogus DD degrees that they've been sticking after their names for over thirty years come from.
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...4447627/
#232388
"They don't imagine that a word on a page can 'make' a person do the things some people imagine have been done." -- Bronwyn Frost
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...4447627/
#232388
Bronwyn's parents have spent over 35 years saying they are teachers and clergy. They have been using that authority to sell words on a page so that someone will know the right way to practice Wicca and tantra and everything else they teach. That is simply disingenuous.
AJ Drew:
Would you please spell Isaac Bonewits' name right for a change? It's with an S, not a Z.
If you cannot spell it right, how can we know that you are quoting him correctly?
thanks much,
Chas
Carol Maltby - I work away from home where there is no internet. Right now in Kentucky. I come home to visit my wife and children. I check in with this and other forums with dred, until this latest visit. Thank you for not only discussing this matter openly, but for letting me know that I am either not as parinoid as I sometimes think, or at least there is more than one of me out there. Not that I am saying that you do or do not agree with my methods, but it does seem obvious that you have noted the insanity that seems to be welcome, accepted, and promoted in our community.
iParenting.com dumps the Church and School of Wicca.
There was an article at iParenting.com which included an interview with Jo Frost in which the Church and School of Wicca was promoted to children. I wrote to iParenting.com and provided links to quotes from the Frost's book. They seemed to instantly remove the article.
It seems odd that outside of the pagan / Wiccan community, almost anone who reads that book can instantly tell it is something they do not want to be associated with, but within the pagan / Wiccan community Gavin and Yvonne Frost continue to be promoted and defended despite the book.
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation....and-the-frosts/
So i take it your proud of this division you are creating in the pagan community.. Be honest with all you say you are doing to raise the red flag against the Frosts i see that you are totally loving the attention. Not for your cause, but for what it brings to YOU personally. I see it in the tone of your writings on the net. you know what thats called.. SELF AGRANDISEMENT.why is this so AJ.. ??
CLAIM: "This chapter describes some of the more controversial practices of the old path taught in the earliest days of the Church and School of Wicca. No formal initiation into a group that practices the great rite should be done before the candidate attains the age of eighteen. Since very few females coming to initiation are virgin, the use of the phallus is usually dropped... [snip] ... This was included as part of Craft heritage in line with the age-old practice universal among preliterate societies, as described in Auel's Clan of the Cave Bear. It was still practiced in many groups in Great Britain through the 1970's." -- Gavin and Yvonne Frost
The Good Witch's Bible
Seventh Edition / Godolphin House / January 2000
Page 61 Forward to Chapter IV
http://www.freewebs.com/
controve...ToChapterIV.htm
FACT: "Jean Auel gave a lecture to the Sacramento Archaeological Society just before POP[Plains of Passage] was published... Jean started the talk by saying that she is often asked, 'How much is REAL? Well, none of it is REAL.' She went on to say that the books are her interpretation of facts or artifacts, and should not be read as FACT. http://donsmaps.com/auel.html
"He felt a moist warmth enclose the end of his throbbing manhood, and then more than the end. He groaned... As she leaned back, her shapely breasts jutted forward, her slightly darker nipples pointing out. Her sinuous body glistened in the sun; his own manhood buried deep within was ready to burst with rapture." p. 499 The Valley of Horses
CLAIM: "For those who are interested in the roots of the practice and the baton de commandment[sic], we recommend 'Roots of Civilization' by Marshak[sic]." -- Gavin and Yvonne Frost
The Good Witch's Bible
Seventh Edition / Godolphin House / January 2000 Page 61 Forward to Chapter IV
http://www.freewebs.com/
controve...ToChapterIV.htm
FACT: I spent over two hours examining a 1972 edition of the Alexander Marshack book. Nowhere that I could find in Roots of Civilization does Marshack suggest that the baton de commandement has any sexual use whatsoever as a dildo. Marshack does not speculate on the nature of Paleolithic coming-of-age rituals.
Marshack is quite emphatic about how his perspectives differ from those the Frosts are trying to impose upon him.
"The complexity and interrelation of these storied meanings cannot easily be explained by any generalizing theories propounding concepts of hunting magic, fertility ritual, or sexual symbolism." p.255
"Ethnology and anthropology abound in examples of ceremonies performed in semi-nudity without any overt sexual symbolism. We cannot therefore, assume 'fertility rite,' since a ceremony and 'story' can be masculine without fertility connotation... [snip] ...We must be careful, then, in judging such images of nudity, for we see in them what we consider to be sexual in terms of our repertoire of images and habits, our ethical and moral values concerning nakedness, and our knowledge concerning insemination and conception." p. 272
cont'd
Marshack cont'd
"We must be careful, then, of too simple answers. The cultures of these Siberian tribes are related to the Upper Paleolithic cultures at a distance of 15,000 to 35,000 years, and while we can consider the Paleolithic cultures central, dynamic, revolutionary and formative, the cultures of historic hunting cultures of Siberia are peripheral, isolated, static, and in many ways degenerative and regressive. Though certain forms and traditions have been retained, they would not have the same meaning or value." p.337
It's a brilliant book, and I look forward to have the chance to absorb it in a more leisurely fashion some day. Marshack originally began asking questions about the distant roots of the space program while working on a book on the International Geophysical Year, a 1957-58 cooperative venture to study Earth-sun relationships that involved scientists from almost 100 nations. His exploration of Paleolithic images and tools was primarily focused on analyzing marks which he felt were notations for lunar cycles or related to other seasonal manifestations. Marshack used a microscope to bring out details that had been observed poorly or not at all by other scientists.
But nothing here suggests any connection with raping children at puberty in the way mandated by the Church of Wicca in their "earliest days", other than perhaps the "degenerative and regressive" description.
CLAIM: "[Jo] Frost says teenagers can take their witchcraft correspondence courses only with parental permission." -- iparenting.com interview, now removed.
http://216.239.51.104/search?q=c...clnk&cd=2&
gl=us
FACT: Payment from Minors
The School will accept your registration fee, but it must be accompanied by a signed note of permission from your parent or guardian. Otherwise, we have to ask for a non-refundable down payment of $100.00.
Carol Maltby - Very important, I need a reference for the $100.00 down payment in lue of parent permission slip. Please help.
Please know that our discussion and the tips you are turning me on to are finding their way into my blog and might be in print some day. Please write me and let me know your real name or name you would like due credit given to.
Edited By Siteowner
Shadowhawk, don't you think that the Frosts enjoy a great deal of attention and publicity from exactly this sort of discussion/incident?
They have had 20+ years to add a stronger disclaimer to their material or to remove the objected to instructions from their books.
I would be willing to bet that this sort of thing gets them more free publicity and drives sales on their books and hits on their websites.
Peace,
Pax
Sorry, it was late and I forgot to give the URL.
Payment from Minors
The School will accept your registration fee, but it must be accompanied by a signed note of permission from your parent or guardian. Otherwise, we have to ask for a non-refundable down payment of $100.00.
http://www.wicca.org/courses/
bas...asiccourse.html
If you click the "initiation" link on that page you'll get to the Church and School of Wicca's current labyrinthine initiation policies.
Their "Letter for Parents of Children Exploring Wicca and/or Paganism" is at http://www.wicca.org/kids.htm
I don't make accusations that I can't back up, and I try to meticulously document what I do present. The Frosts' own words damn them far more than anyone else can. I am not hiding behind a pseudonym.
In case there are any complaints that the Frosts were talking about Clan of the Cave Bear while I furnished a quote from Valley of Horses, I did find one on p.258 of VH where Ayla reminisces about her first sexual experience, which happened in CCB:
When the stud mounted, Ayla couldn't help remembering Broud and the terrible pain. Later, it had only been unpleasant, but she always hated it when Broud mounted her, and was grateful when he finally grew tired of it."
Or is this the "Craft heritage" the Frosts inherited?
I just wanted to let everyone know that the book the Frosts used to document their "historical" verification to the breaking of young girl's hymens is bogus.
Having read The Roots of Civilization it is based on lunar cycles. The baton de commandment that the Frosts state in their forward to chapter 4 as their proof it was done in history is also false. There is nothing in the book that states anything about the baton de commandment being used for sex. It was used to keep animals such as horses under control and was used as a counting stick for planting, harvesting and pregnancy especially in animals.
Just so everyone catches this.
The Roots of Civilization has nothing to do with sex tools.
So the Frosts lied about their documentation in my opinion.
If you wish to read the book it is available at libraries.
I also want to ask a question
Does anyone know Mandrake of Dragonstar Circle is????
He seems to have had a bad experience with Gavin Frost. Don't know if it is true but he has written about it.
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/drag...9/
THECRAFT.html
(from the web page)
{The day the train wreck occurred was the target date set by Frost for his followers to attack Sybil because she had publicly called him a fraud. I wasn't as upset about him being a fraud as I was about what he was doing to little girls with dildos in the name of the Craft. The death of Sybil Leek was a great loss for the Craft, more than most will know. The Meet turned into a circus, with Gavin Frost grabbing Ayeisha by the throat and throwing her to the floor, while Frost's people were calling everyone else names.}
Now some of the writtings on this wweb page seems a bit out there but I am wondering about this part concerning the Frosts.
There are people reading this page who are friends with the Frosts, students and collegues. People who have a lot of history with them going back decades, and positive experiences.
You have a right to determine your friendships, to decide what old friends you love, and why you love them. If there is healing and change needed, people need their networks of support.
But you don't get to lie on their behalf, or refuse to face the facts we've presented here.
About this "vow of poverty" business. Without knowing who the Frosts vowed to, what they vowed, and what the consequences are of violating those vows, it's a pretty meaningless phrase. Don't let it get in the way while you explore these issues.
I'm glad you looked at the Marshack book, Scathia, it's good to have the fact-checking confirmed.
Here's something that might pass for a little comic relief at this point.
"There are short-term gains for people running festivals, if they can advertise another Witch burning. And of course there are the authors and publishers of what we describe as yellow-press books on the level of National Enquirer. So we ask, do you want this to happen?"
June 29, 2007 GavinandYvonne The Dancing Wiccans
http://gavinandyvonne.blogspot.c...their-
cost.html
"Articles by or about Gavin and Yvonne Frost have appeared in such national publications as Midnight and the National Enquirer."
Biographical material on the back cover of The Magic Power of Witchcraft, Parker Publishing Company, 1976.
the only question I have, especially since I went through the Church and School of Wicca course in '84, is why the delay? The book has been in print since '77. When I went through the course, the information was given which I summarily rejected as I did such practices as performing a literal Great Rite in circle which has in the past been endorsed by other authors. Why has AJ chosen to pursue this after so long of a period and after owning a shop himself? Did he just now become aware of the contents? I cannot believe that to be the case. Negativity breeds negativity. I agree with Dr. Buckland's comment of having other more positive ways of dealing with issues.
I might not agree with something, but I am definitely not going to burn it. Isn't that what they did to "witches" of the past?
I also remember another man that burned things. His name was Adolph Hitler. He didn't like something, so he burned it.
Commenting by HaloScan
