Have you read our Comment Policy?
"(WM/AF in IR, accused by an AAM of being a SOW on F44 and MM) "
This is a divisive and incorrect characterization, Jenn. AAM (e.g. Eric and some other militant posters) on reapppropriate also accuse women of the same thing. I've seen sexist innuendos on the NY Times blogs as well--gosh, those Times editors are SO SEXIST. Gosh, reappropriate is SO SEXIST. It's flat out wrong.
Your call for unity is not going to happen if we're not being fair in evaluating different options and ways of thinking for Asian Americans. You're entitled to your own free speech, but seriously, this borders on slanderous. It's especially insulting to the women who participate on the 44's.
If you really want to further the cause of feminism, why not blog on what you feel about the feminist/womanist ideas on the 44's, rather than just attacking the site itself just because some fringe poster used the term SOW (and quite honestly, I don't remember when the last time someone on the 44's used the term.).
Thanks, Tony, Jenn, and all others for getting the ball rolling on this. It's pathetic and downright shameful that mainstream teenybopper mags can be more truthful and more culturally sensitive than ethnic publications(!). Sad.
Jaehwan,
That comment was intended to show the alphabet soup of acronyms that have come to characterize the IR debate -- which has gotten so ridiculous that it's practically it's own language -- I mean, you and I understand what that sentence said, but the average person has NO idea what that alphabet soup of acronyms mean.
It was not to make any particular statement about the Fighting 44's site. It was to demonstrate how completely marginalized this debate has gotten, wherein you have to practically learn a new language to participate.
I think you are getting unduly defensive here. This was NOT a commentary on your site as some sort of sexist bastion. It was a commentary on the ludicrousness that I can write something like
"(WM/AF in IR, accused by an AAM of being a SOW on F44 and MM)"
... and you can even understand what the FUCK I'm talking about.
I mean, look at that sentence. Just step back and look at it. Right there, how much this debate has distracted us from the issues of the White mainstream hegemony that implemented this institution of stereotypes in order to impose racial control -- at this point, we are so busy talking amongst ourselves that we've. stopped. speaking. English.
But because it bothers you that much, I have altered it to write "(WM/AF in IR accused by an AAM of being a SOW on MM and AFs spekaing out on F44)", so that you can see that I was not trying to characterize the site, I was trying to make an example of all the acronyms we're throwing around.
But again, I think you're nitpicking on a detail in order to miss the entire larger part of this post.
Awewome! It's always good to fight on the right side of such blatant racial injustice.
They'll bend. If they don't, we'll have to get the big guns. I know of several groups that would be interested in hearing about this.
Angry Asian Man
MANAA
Fallout Central
And others. In the end, their site will be a laughing stock. Whatever happens, we'll be able to teach others about what's right and wrong when it comes to racial stereotying.
You see everyone, if we don't challenge messages like these, people will assume that they're OK to internalize and promote.
Thanks everyone for working together on this.
And Jenn, I don't care if you edit the entire letter. As long as you can improve upon it, I'm happy. 
thank you jenn, tony et al, for stepping up to the plate on this!
you guys are my heros!
chris
"But again, I think you're nitpicking on a detail in order to miss the entire larger part of this post."
I reiterate, Jaehwan, while I appreciate your comments and your insight on this matter, it frustrates me to no end to discuss these issues and to write how I feel on the subject, only to have you focus on one part to the exclusion of the larger point.
Are there female mods at F44 -- many of whom identify as feminist? I'm sure, but as a former female mod on a site that was -- compared to other extremist sites -- a faily balanced and academic forum, sexism still can run rampant and virtually unopposed by even male mods -- some of whom even encourage that kind of attitude.
My point remains that you are pretty much the only blogger on the main site. You haven't focused on the formation of body image concerns, domestic abuse, or sexism that targets women within the Asian American community, nor have you made efforts to outreach to bloggers to do that. And that's not to say that there's anything wrong with that -- Angry Asian Man wouldn't be Angry Asian Man if he suddenly started talking exclusively about women. F44 has made a niche for itself focusing on what it's focusing on -- my point is that it should be able to exist where it is, and there needs to be a counterbalance somewhere in the Asian American blogosphere that allows for feminist ideas to flourish *as well* (not instead of Asian American male ideas).
Rather than to get defensive, this post suggests that you stop and interrogate where you might be too rigid in the way you're coming at this. And this post implores that I do it too. We're so gender nationalist that we've stopped listening to the other side of the debate; we're too fast to react and defend, rather than listen and compromise. This post was as much a condemnation of me as it is of you -- it was a condemnation of the debate, and the corners we've painted ourselves into.
I didn't call F44 sexist, but your reaction is an example of the problem. I know why you got mad, I know why you got defensive: but this should show the limitations of how we've framed the debate that even so simple a statement as what I've said can be misconstrued as yet another epic feminist vs. Asian American male attack.
I don't know how to change the parameters of the debate. But I think it has to be changed. I think I have to be able to criticize F44 as somewhat male-centric, and you need to be able to advocate that some feminists be more conscious of the Asian American male perspective -- and we need to not have that turn into men and women all fighting over a single piece of the pie and tearing each other to pieces in so doing.
Incidentally, I'm not on F44, because I have been targeted with misogynistic comments on the site in the past, and I think called a SOW there -- long before you became a part of the team (in fact, I do remember that it was where I first came across the term and was disgusted by it). And fr
To: editor@falloutcentral.com,angryminsoo@angryasianma
n.com,manaaletters@yahoo.com
Hello,
I wanted to inform you of an Asian American Womens website that's been writing some articles stereotying and disparaging Asian American men. See for yourself:
http://asiancemagazine.com/mar_2...ian_men?
page=11
We were wondering if you might have some answers. We've already tried posting dozens of messages on their comments section. And we've also sent numerous emails, but with no response. I thought that it'd be time to bring in the big guns and that's why I'm contacting you. Can you please assit?
Also, the Editor there said she’d publish what I write. Here it is. I emailed her and let’s see if she actually publishes it. However, she's gone back on her word and continuously deletes it every time I post it on her website:
OK, I’ll try to keep this short and simple.
I find it absolutely disgusting that I would even need to write a “counter article” to contest the racist, sexist and inflammatory comments against Asian Americans made by a fellow Asian American (Elysia Bandong) on an Asian American website (Asiancemazine.com). How is this even possible? I thought that we Asian Americans all have one goal, and that’s to fight to be treated equally, fairly and with respect. But I guess I was wrong.
On March 5th 2008, Elysia Bandong, a Filipino American woman, wrote an article on an Asian American website called “Asiancemazine.com” that was titled “A Few Good Asian Men”. Based on the title, I thought was going to be a positive an article about Asian American men. Unfortunately, I was very very wrong.
I couldn’t believe what I was reading. The general idea of the article is that ALL Asian men are alike. It seems that we all have some terrible traits that make us very unattractive as mates and lovers such as being “too easy”, “too considerate”, and too “respectful”...oooooo we’re just awful, aren’t we? Here are a few additional excepts from her article:
“Asian men are similar to trained puppy dogs. They’re cute and obedient…but highly predictable and more or less boring.”
“I can tell you pretty much what every Asian guy I dated was like and how they looked because they were all the same.”
“All the guys would wear a collared shirt and blazer with neat jeans. Around their neck was a gold chain with a crucifix.”
After all these years that Asian Americans have fought and struggled to shatter Asian stereotypes among non-Asians, Elysia has single-handedly managed to undermine all of that work with just a few slanderous paragraphs made against Asian American men and then displaying them on the internet for all to see.
Elysia should know better. Being an Asian American woman herself, I’m sure that she’s already felt the sting of not just racism, but also sexism. That’s why it totally shocked me to read such racist and sexist material come out of her
Well, it looks like she's continusly deleting my posts now. The only other thing I can do now is contact as many Asian American organizations about their website. After that, I've done all I can do.
staff_asiancemagazine.com wrote:
Tony,
We have contacted the FBI in regards to your threats to this magazine during March 24th and March 25th. These types of threats need to be noted in today's day and age. We will pursue accordingly.
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 13:06:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tony Koo <
Subject: RE: My Article for you to post on you magazine
To: staff_asiancemagazine.com
What threats are you talking about? Can you please elaborate?
Oh, but the way, EVERYTHING that's happened here has been well documented in 3 other websites. EVERYTHING..even my warning to people about not doing anything stupid.
If the FBI wants to take a look , they're more than welcomed to do so:
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/...0&
#entry3593910
http://modelminority.com/bb/view...=25773&
start=40
http://www.reappropriate.com/?p=1128
http://www.reappropriate.com/?p=1135
Don't try to scare me with empty threats. Bring the FBI...I'll tell them EXACTLY what's happened.
And then you'll look like an even BIGGER FOOL.
Go ahead, delete this. Do you want me to call the FBI myself?
I'M NOT SCARED OF YOU!!! GET THAT Though you head!!!
I've just recently discovered reappropriate and wanted to give my props as well as post my contribution to the letter writing campaign (below). Sorry if it was too long, but I felt motivated to write every word of it.
Let's keep the letters coming! Thank you, reappropriate!
---
Dear Editor(s) of Asiance,
I came across one of your March 5th articles, "A Few Good Asian Men" by Elysia Bandong. As a Filipina and as an Asian American individual, I found this article ignorant, hateful, and contrary to the goals your website purports to strive for.
It's bad in itself that Bandong thinks it acceptable to perpetuate stereotypes of our culture. It's worse that she attempts to expand these stereotypes to the greater Asian American community, presumably to snag the larger, general population of Asian American readers. It should go without saying that despite commonalities, there are clear distinctions that make the Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Indian, Filipino, etc. cultures what they are.
Furthermore, Bandong claims this set of stereotypes she ascribes to makes dating Asian men "easier" because "there's less to work with." She writes that " Asian men are similar to trained puppy dogs." These statements depreciate the value of our Asian brothers, making it appear as if they have less worth and less complexity as an individual human being. This magazine should be elevating the status of Asian American women, but not at the expense of pushing down our Asian American men.
At the very least, it's a poor, unprofessional composition, even if it is an opinion-based piece. I understand that a growing publication, especially one dedicated to a marginalized group or cause, needs every writer they can get. However, that is no excuse for sweeping aside ethical or journalistic standards.
Bandong's musings are riddled with generalizations and lapses in logic:
"They're cute and obedient." I hate to point this out, but I am fairly certain there are Asian American men whom some might consider ugly, perhaps even fugly. Similarly, I am fairly certain that there have been Asian American men who have disregarded authority--parent, teacher, law or otherwise.
"Everybody loves them." Doesn't the term "everybody" encompass Bandong as well? And if everybody loves them, why don't we see more positive visibility of Asian American men in mainstream American media?
I will concede that Bandong is entitled to her opinion, but as an editor of a magazine that speaks to and on behalf of a greater population, it is his or her duty to moderate the content of what it publishes and evaluate whether or not this content aligns with the heart and core of the publication's vision. It is for this reason that I request the retraction of this article, a formal apology from Bandong and the editor(s) of Asiance, and that these parties undergo sensitivity training to address issues of racism and stereotyping in opinion-writing.
If such actions an
(Sorry... I was truncated = Anyway, here's my concluding remark.)
If such actions and words as these continue to go unchecked at Asiance.com and in our community in general, if we do not acknowledge the power of solidarity between our Asian American brothers and sisters, we cannot hope to achieve the progress in social equality and justice that we desire for ourselves and for our posterity.
Thank you for your time and efforts.
Respectfully,
--
Wendy Natividad
Tony,
Sorry to hear that, man. Wow. The lengths people will go through to keep a man down. Not only are you fighting their racism, but now you're also fighting the FBI. Good luck.
"I don't know how to change the parameters of the debate. But I think it has to be changed. I think I have to be able to criticize F44 as somewhat male-centric, and you need to be able to advocate that some feminists be more conscious of the Asian American male perspective -- and we need to not have that turn into men and women all fighting over a single piece of the pie and tearing each other to pieces in so doing.
Incidentally, I'm not on F44, because I have been targeted with misogynistic comments on the site in the past, and I think called a SOW there -- long before you became a part of the team (in fact, I do remember that it was where I first came across the term and was disgusted by it)."
Jenn,
They used to never ban people. That's what happens when there is no moderation--you saw that here as well. (The only reason women don't get called out on this site is that most of your posters happen to be men. This, too, has nothing to do with sexism from your site, though it could be sexism in the general culture.)
As xian mentioned in another post, the access for women on the blog has always been there. Yes, I'm probably the most frequent blogger, and I happen to be male. But it has nothing to do with there being any systemic suppression of female voices.
"Asian American feminism has always underscored a need for both genders to be heard, to be equal, and ultimately to be united in the common goal of ending gender-based discrimination. "
That's true of you, Jenn, but it's not true of Asian American feminism in general. At least that hasn't been my experience.
Anyway, I'm going to take a breather for a few days on this issue. Thanks for hearing me.
I've already called her bluff. I have nothing to hide.
asiance. what a freakin joke. way to go, tony. don't back down. they're fulla shit anyway. threats? the only threat you made was exposing their racist agenda.
looks like capitulation is near.
Well, it looks like this thing's now got a mind of its own now.
My main priority is to keep on fighting, but making sure I keep my hands clean, and I hope that others will agree with that.
We can't do anything about other people making threats, but just make sure the rest of you don't get into any trouble, OK?
It looks like they're not allowing any more posts on their website:
http://asiancemagazine.com/mar_2...ian_men?
page=12
However, email is always open:
Staff@asiancemagazine.com
Just don't harass or make any kinds of threats.
*deleted*
Hm...my login ID's been deleted and my email to Staff@asiancemagazine.com bounced back. Oh well...I think I'm out of ideas at this point.
The only remaining thing I can do it to contact the major Asian American Orgs...I'll work on that tonight.
If I didn't read it carefully, I could have sworn that this was about a magazine where the guilty party was white.
Asian Americans writing to an Asian American woman's magazine to knock off the racism against Asian American men. Now I've seen it all.
*deleted*
"As xian mentioned in another post, the access for women on the blog has always been there. Yes, I'm probably the most frequent blogger, and I happen to be male. But it has nothing to do with there being any systemic suppression of female voices."
I don't deny that female bloggers have access to blogging on F44. But the truth of it is that female bloggers don't blog on F44.
I don't think there's systemic suppression going on, but I do think that women having access to blog and choosing not to is indicative that there is some obstacle to expressing a female perspective on the blog: perhaps it is lack of time, lack of outreach, lack of retention, lack of incentive, or simple reluctance to open oneself to a backlash of sexism.
Whatever it is, for whatever reason, the F44 blog -- as it is manifested -- lacks a gender-based diversity, as does many of the most prominent Asian American political blogs.
That's not a criticism in the sense that you think it is -- it is a call for an acknolwedgement that Asian American women's voices are not being heard in the politicized APIA blogosphere, so up to this point, we are hearing about APIA identity through a male filter. And there is need for that -- I don't think F44 or MM or YW or AAM need to change; but I think it needs to be counter-balanced with equal time somewhere in the blogosphere for female-oriented perspectives.
I'm asking for you to acknowledge the situation -- to acknowledge that men are dominating the debate in the blogosphere, not finding you (or men in general) to blame for it. Just acknowledge that this is a problem.
""Asian American feminism has always underscored a need for both genders to be heard, to be equal, and ultimately to be united in the common goal of ending gender-based discrimination. "
That's true of you, Jenn, but it's not true of Asian American feminism in general. At least that hasn't been my experience."
Again, Jaehwan, that *is* the perspective of Asian American feminism, particularly third-wave feminists. Unfortunately, your access and experience with feminism is hardly representative; from your previous comments, it is clear that you are not distinguishing between extreme fundamentalist forms of mainstream first-wave feminism and all that has come since.
I think I can safely say I know a little more about APIA feminism than you do, and all my reading, my interaction with feminists, and my own writings indicate that Asian American feminism is an off-shoot of third-wave feminism, which includes as one of its basic tenets gender equality for both genders -- but which tends to favour speaking out from a female perspective because that is the perspective that usually gets ignored. However, in speaking as a woman, feminists do not advocate a limitation or castigation of men, rather a castigation of *sexism* and *patriarchy* within the Asian American community and equal time and equal treatment for women.
Asian American feminist
Asian American feminists speak of male privilege. But that doesn't mean that they are looking to place men inferior to women -- but to challenge the privileges that men refuse to see but nonetheless enjoy within our community.
Chris and Robby,
Your comments have been deleted for references to physical assault and violence, which is unacceptable forms of expression, particularly on an ongoing campaign.
ok, sorry about that, jenn.
i was encouraged with tony's exuberent campaign and promising results.
Just because there was some R rated content doesn't mean that it was directed towards a person.
The next phase will now involve FalloutCentral. I just spoke to its founder and he wants me to write an Editorial on his website about this topic.
"Whatever it is, for whatever reason, the F44 blog -- as it is manifested -- lacks a gender-based diversity, as does many of the most prominent Asian American political blogs."
Fine. Agreed. But that includes your blog too. Aside from the fact that you are the only blogger here, the vast majority of posters are men. So it's a general problem, not a specific one. I hope we can agree on this too.
Maybe the answer to to have more women-only blogs. But this wouldn't have anything to do with race--as you mentioned in one of your posts, it's mostly about gender.
"I think I can safely say I know a little more about APIA feminism than you do"
I don't know if that's the case. From our conversations, it seems that we know just about as much about Kingston and Tan as the other. If there are other modern day APIA feminists who have achieved great things, please educate me (and Yuri really isn't a feminist unless you stretch the definition. Helen Zia is an exception.). From what I've seen, many self-described Asian American feminists just drive men out of their organizations with personal attacks and then complain that people won't listen to them or join them. You call it "fundamentalist" and "first wave," but it's the norm, and it takes place in the modern day.
In any case, what is it that you really want, Jenn? It seems like this "feminism" thing is nothing more than a label. We had that discussion about domestic violence, and you seemed to be trying really hard to pin the tail on the Asian man because it's the Asian American "feminist" thing to do. And even after the author of the domestic violence report corrected your analysis, though you honorably accepted her correction, you still seemed to want to blame Asian men for something (and the "Asian" part is significant). We've had discussions about "feminists" like Hong Kingston who lie about Asian men and Asian culture, and even though you qualify your criticism by calling it "ill advised," it's clearly neither morally right nor in the best interest of unity to spread stereotypes and lies.
So what is it that you really want? If you really want unity, maybe "feminism" isn't the right vehicle for you. Maybe you need something separate from all the crazy and unethical stuff that the more prominent self-described Asian American feminists have done. It's never too late to change course.
And by the way, feel free to disagree with anything I said. From the posts of your other readers, I am not the only one who wonders why you embrace this religion so strongly. Maybe we could have unity if you let us know why you feel the way you do about this. I just look around at these APA feminists, and I see how little they've achieved and how much discord they've spread, and I wonder why anyone would embrace it,especially as it more often than not supports racism against Asian men. (Apologies if this is blunt.)
I'm asking for you to acknowledge the situation -- to acknowledge that men are dominating the debate in the blogosphere, not finding you (or men in general) to blame for it. Just acknowledge that this is a problem.
I do think you are placing blame or at pushing a value judgment here. I agree that the only logical forms of empowerment--feminism, anti-racist, etc.--must focus on alleviating the damage that institutions of inequality do to EVERYONE in the society.
However, when you take a group that is horribly underrepresented in mainstream voice, and say that it is "dominating" a constructed community, you are making a value judgment.
It reminds me of the conversation we often have challenging so-called Asian American literature in which empathetic female voices and ALL male voices are often marginalized due to mainstream exotified preferences.
But why are we treating this as a zero sum game? The solution is not for a demographic of Asian American women who are being published to STOP writing, it is to promote a more diverse group that reflects the perspectives of our community to write and demand that they are published.
I mean, let's be real--these are the same problems that many of our social justice communities face. I mean good intentions don't automatically turn into diverse and equal participation.
I know you know this, but the simple fact is that just being right doesn't solve all the problems facing our community.
I guess I'm just frustrated because we are trying and some of us spend most of our waking hours pushing gender equal strains of feminism and building opportunities for young women to take leading roles. For a wide variety of possible reasons, it's not translating into a slew of front page articles by females with the front page keys.
But I'm not seeing any substantive suggestions for improvement.
Isn't there an irony that you make a needed call for unity but use one of the sites that you say is necessary as an example of what's wrong with community?
OK, I just sent emails to:
APA For Progress
YellowWorld
Arizona Asian American Association
Asian American Institute
Asian American Journalist Association
In addition to the ones I've already sent to MANAA, FalloutCentral, and Angry Asian Man.
Also, this story is well known in
ModelMinority
AsiaFinest
and Reappropriate.com
That's pretty much it folks. I've done all I can at this point.
Fallout Central wants me to write an editorial write an Editorial from an Asian man's prespective. But that'll be for another day...
i though asiance wanted you to write a piece?
While I don't know about everyone else, i'm quite happy that everyone's found a topic to agree about, and i'm now convinced that despite what I might have thought in the past about this website. Now I know Jenn here is doing alot for asian men , and I think most of you asian guys aren't giving her enough credit here especially in light of the article (whose opinion may resonate with the overwhelming majority of asian-american females).
But as far as the bickering goes; the objectification of the other gender intrinsically stems from sexual desire itself. No one is above each other, including myself.
Until you guys realize this and are able to accept the way things are as imperfect, everyone will be over intellectualizing the issue and keep attacking each other over this issue. (ie: completely missing the whole point ).
I don't mean to be a jerk but I honestly don't understand why AF are surprised at this type of reaction. Everything stemming from this hate filled rhetoric directed towards AF is merely a reaction to what has been building in the Asian American male community for years which no one cares to acknowledge.
As I always say, "garbage in, garbage out."
This is why I laugh when AF *and* AM don't see this issue as a big deal. It's a huge issue. It's just that no one likes to talk or acknowledge it for two reasons:
1.) Fighting an "outside" enemy is always easier. It takes little to no effort to rally a people in fighting an outside entity.
2.) Neither side wishes to yield any ground. The art of negotiation is lost. In order for both parities to feel satisfied, both part parties need to feel like they lost something.
Also, I laughed at your disclaimer at the bottom of the article.
" i though asiance wanted you to write a piece?"
I've already written it. I sent it to them and then they erased everything I sent. I did it over and over and they kept on deleting it. That got me pissed. We had an agreement and they backed out of it.
They have no honor. Here's the article I wrote for them:
OK, I’ll try to keep this short and simple.
I find it absolutely disgusting that I would even need to write a “counter article” to contest the racist, sexist and inflammatory comments against Asian Americans made by a fellow Asian American (Elysia Bandong) on an Asian American website (Asiancemazine.com). How is this even possible? I thought that we Asian Americans all have one goal, and that’s to fight to be treated equally, fairly and with respect. But I guess I was wrong.
On March 5th 2008, Elysia Bandong, a Filipino American woman, wrote an article on an Asian American website called “Asiancemazine.com” that was titled “A Few Good Asian Men”. Based on the title, I thought was going to be a positive an article about Asian American men. Unfortunately, I was very very wrong.
I couldn’t believe what I was reading. The general idea of the article is that ALL Asian men are alike. It seems that we all have some terrible traits that make us very unattractive as mates and lovers such as being “too easy”, “too considerate”, and too “respectful”...oooooo we’re just awful, aren’t we? Here are a few additional excepts from her article:
“Asian men are similar to trained puppy dogs. They’re cute and obedient…but highly predictable and more or less boring.”
“I can tell you pretty much what every Asian guy I dated was like and how they looked because they were all the same.”
“All the guys would wear a collared shirt and blazer with neat jeans. Around their neck was a gold chain with a crucifix.”
After all these years that Asian Americans have fought and struggled to shatter Asian stereotypes among non-Asians, Elysia has single-handedly managed to undermine all of that work with just a few slanderous paragraphs made against Asian American men and then displaying them on the internet for all to see.
Elysia should know better. Being an Asian American woman herself, I’m sure that she’s already felt the sting of not just racism, but also sexism. That’s why it totally shocked me to read such racist and sexist material come out of her.
This type of message cannot be tolerated. Not only does it stereotype and pigeon hole the image of Asian American men, but it also allows non-Asians to do the same since now, they can always say, “Well, Elysia’s Asian American, and even SHE thinks that way about Asian American men.” We cannot condone this and we definitely should not promote this.
As Asian Americans, we already have a difficult time as it is in trying to fight and struggle for equality and respect. It’s understandable that we have struggle for this among those outside the Asian American community, but we sho
but we shouldn’t have to do it within our community as well.
-Tony Koo
YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BELIEVE THIS!!!!
THE FOUNDER/EDITOR OF ASIANCE IS NOT EVEN ASIAN:
SEE LINK: Although she is not of Asian descent, she established this magazine to pursue her love of writing and various cultures.
http://www.asiansinamerica.org/d...ms/
ny_asnc.html
What the hell kind of a world do we live in?
Do you think that if a white woman started a website about black women that it would go unnoticed by black organizations? God, this totally reminds me of Chinese Laundry.
unbelievable, huh tony?
jenn, i anxiously await your response to this revelation...
also reminds me of asian boston magazine. founder is the classic white guy asiaphile:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asi...ki/
Asian_Boston
" also reminds me of asian boston magazine. founder is the classic white guy asiaphile:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asi...ki/ Asian_Boston"
Chris, can you give me an update about this magazine?
it's everything you would expect. white dude has fetish for asian women...starts magazine featuring young asian women in boston area....causes uproar in asian community....changes whole concept of magazine to placate asian community....somehow still publishing?
really boggles my mind how the asian community would even support this kind of shit.
just goes to show how if you're white, you can pull it off because there are asians that believe that a white person is automatically an authority on virtually anything...even on asian issues!!!!
sorry, here is the correct link to asian boston magazine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asi...ki/
Asian_Boston
"jenn, i anxiously await your response to this revelation..."
Considering I had never heard of Asiance magazine before and will not visit the site again, I honestly can't be bothered to be angry abou it.
The quality of writing is really low, and it has virtually no prominence amongst APIA women, so as far as I'm concerned, it's yet another net-based start-up trying to market online writing.
If anything this should just show how critically we need APIA-originated forms of arts and media, which in the blogosphere means frequenting (and hey, respecting!) APIA-originated sites like this one, rather than circling like vultures to tear apart folks within the community we don't like.
Well, if he's already changed the format, then I don't think we need to pursue it.
I can't say with complete certainty, but I think it'll be hard to actually close a business down.
Even with Asiance, I want them to change. I don't necessarily want them to shut down their site.
and herein lies the problem. lack of unity among both asian females and males:
"Considering I had never heard of Asiance magazine before and will not visit the site again, I honestly can't be bothered to be angry abou it."
when the whole "chinese laundry" story erupted asian men rallied for the cause. your complacency is disturbing and highly disappointing.
Their website will allows posts now:
http://asiancemagazine.com/mar_2...ian_men?
page=12
hahaha...i posted that the founder/editor jamie moron, was not asian and they deleted my comment and shut it down again!
it's fun calling out racists and exposing them for all to see.
Yup, I posted my article again and it got deleted again.
Dude, what are they trying to hide?
"Dude, what are they trying to hide?"
really don't know. if you check out the "about us" and do a search on them, they are mainly jewish men with asian wives. basically the website allows them to kiss their own ass and gloat how white guys get all the asian girls at the expense of asian men.
how does a website like this make any money, if at all? so what's is function?
Tony, I find interesting that your posts get deleted immediately but that other racist posts by white men on that site go unchallenged and uncensored. I have seen some incredibly blatant racist posts by white trolls on that site.
My guess is that the author of that article herself is the one doing the censoring.
i'm beginning to find a motive....check this out. this is an asiance article. they get paid to write these asiaphile articles for wm/af websites!!!!
http://www.findasiangirl.com/13.htm
Oh my God...can we confirm this? If so, this is great ammunition for totally discrediting their site.
Can take that link:
http://asiancemagazine.com/ apr_2...ing_asian_women
and the Asiance.com link:
http://asiancemagazine.com/
apr_2...ing_asian_women
and a short description and we can post it in every Asian American site we can think of!
Like I said, even if can't get them to change, we can make them into the laughing stock of the online Asian/non-Asian community!
Sorry, correct links:
http://www.findasiangirl.com/13.htm
http://asiancemagazine.com/
apr_2...ing_asian_women
What kind of site is this "findasiangirl"? I hit the link really quickly but didn't linger because it looked kinda sleazy and I am at work. The last thing I need is to have porno banner ads popping up all over my browser at work.
It would be very disturbing if this were all true. The Asiance site seems like it's trying to be a sort of a "Sex and the City" type site for young Asian women. But if they are really catering to the online dating crowd then they are really operating under false pretenses.
Some thoughts on this new controversy.
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That was not me that wrote that. Probably some insignificant white guy...shoo white guy...shoo
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James, some quick thoughts on your blog response about this issue:
I don't think it's fair or accurate to label our behavior and actions as immature or insensitive to Asian feminism. I for one have never used terms like "SOW" and I don't condone the actions of people who do engage in that kind of language.
Secondly, I think it's a little disengenous of you to compare Asian men's objections to Amy Tan/Hong-Kingston-type feminism to Sojourner Truth. Amy Tan and Maxine Hong-Kingston are still alive and publishing. Sojourner Truth lived over 100 years ago.
I also take issue with the idea that pointing out inter-group racism is disempowering to Asian women. Whether you choose to believe it or not, many Asian women are racist towards their fellow Asian men and this is reflected in their dating preferences. Internalized racism and colonialist mentality which makes White people the ideal choice is a very real phenomenon. (and this applies to Asian men as well as Asian women).
I've been to Hong Kong and have seen this colonialist mentality first-hand several times. I have seen Chinese waiters ignore seated Chinese patrons and rush over to serve white customers. I have Asian female friends who have mothers who have told them to date only white men.
*I have seen discrimination of Chinese against other Chinese in favor or white people.*
Hey Jenn!
Delete his ass!
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Just FYI everyone, this message is the only trace of this white guy that tried to start sh*t.
*deleted and banned*
oh my god look what asiancemagazine wrote about Tony!
"Secondly, I think it's a little disengenous of you to compare Asian men's objections to Amy Tan/Hong-Kingston-type feminism to Sojourner Truth. Amy Tan and Maxine Hong-Kingston are still alive and publishing. Sojourner Truth lived over 100 years ago. "
Steinam is still alive but feminism has long since moved past her brand of first-wave feminism.
Frankly, however, James' comment is apt. Arguing that APIA feminism can be defined exclusively by the writings of Kingston and Tan is exactly like saying that Black feminism should be defined by the writings of Sojourner Truth or White feminism (or all feminism) by the writings of Dworkin or Steinam.
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I don't think the quality of that magazine really warrants any serious readership other than those who want to reinforce the stereotype or hate themselves. At the very least, the sections in the dating section are just filled with Amy Tan style writing.
I did some research and it looks like they might be funded through some Benihana money.. I would tread lightly.
They're accepting new posts again.
http://asiancemagazine.com/mar_2...ian_men?
page=12
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Jenn, please delete chris chang's post concerning the personal information of Jaymie Moran!!!
For the record, neither Jenn Fang nor Tony Koo have anything to do with the posting of this information on this website. We have nothing to do with how this information will be used or misused.
OK, I'm done. I don't want any part of this anymore. It was cool when we were just expressing our disapproval of the article. But when you start passing out personal information like that...I don't see any purpose of that other than to either threaten, intimidate, or physical assault.
This really isn't the way to go.
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Jenn, you make a good point. Feminism has most certainly moved past Steinam, as evidenced by her recent comments about Obama. I suppose when it comes to Asian feminism, those are the names I know and am familiar with. What voices in the community would you view as being more in tune with today's realities (3rd wave?)
Well, I tried to post a couple of comments there and they were promptly deleted. Not sure why except for directly stating the articles in that section were mostly garbage. Unless that was the in the TOU, but I saw far more offensive comments there.
"What voices in the community would you view as being more in tune with today's realities (3rd wave?)"
Good question. I'm just as curious.
I posted my opinion on Asian American feminism here:
http://www.thefighting44s.com/ar...rican-feminism/
I linked both your blog and James's blog. Feel free to disagree.
Bandong's article sounds like the typical good boy/bad boy stereotype, only here, she's painted an entire race of men as the good boy. It's an incredibly stupid thing to say. She sounds like the girl who wants to go out with the sullen dangerous (ie. confused and insecure) boy on the motorcycle, as though that disrespect for her and her family is attractive. As though she can't find a man who is attractive and appealing, AND has respect for her family members.
And to paint white men as the "bad boys", seriously, that article could've been written by a white woman and her dislike of all her preppy safe (white) business executive/lawyer boyfriends.
I agree with James' assessment, it's just an infantile article written by a girl still rebelling against her family structure, and using the "otherness" of a different race to mark her own identity within her family.
Everyone, thanks for reading my blog post.
I think it's fair to oppose the notion that one can define an entire sociopolitical perspective -- Asian American feminism -- with two authors alone. Even communism gained definition outside of Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin. Maxine Hong Kingston and Amy Tan do not produce the vast majority of Asian American feminist writing - at best they provide examples of minority writing commodification by large-scale publishing houses.
Let's be clear: one of the reasons that Tan and Kingston could write best-sellers that mainstream Americans would buy revolves around the marketable Orientalist fetish mainstream Americans exude.
Likewise, I wouldn't count Anchee Min's Red Azalea as an 'Asian American' feminist text, but I can't ignore that that book revolves around a personal narrative that displays the excesses of Chinese communism towards women for mainstream American audiences eager to feel patriotic superiority over modern China.
The point? If Asian American men eager to dismiss feminism and only engage the political will of the Asian American community for their male-centered interests alone persist in characterizing all Asian American feminism as suspect because of an association with Kingston and Tan, then that very denial becomes too sexist to persuade others. Everyone knows that Kingston and Tan are as dated for Asian American women today as Sojourner Truth and Anna Julia Cooper are for Black women today.
To all Asian American men upset with Asian American feminism: when you oppose all early instances of a philosophy and ignore it's modern examples in order to decry the entire philosophy - then and now - you commit an intellectually disingenuous and dishonest act. As least read the modern examples before you toss out the bathwater. Helen Zia's a decent start, as is this blog.
As for your "pointing out inter-group racism" vibe Randy, I don't really agree. Take Ms. Bandong for example - while I found that op-ed as cerebral as a Saved by the Bell episode, it's not a problem for me because I don't consider 'chick-lit' anymore influential than your average Danielle Steel romance novel.
I'm not excusing the obvious anti-Asian male stereotyping in that piece, I'm just saying that the piece itself, while lamentable, isn't really that important. But Randy, your view that it's sensible to assert to Asian American women when you believe they are 'racist' to Asian American men comes perilously close to thought-policing, and I never agree with that.
I think Jaye's 'bad boy/good boy' metaphor for Ms. Bandong's piece encapsulates everything awry with the writing there. And Jaye, I smiled at the motorcycle image; very Happy Days of you!
Yup. I wrote that to the Editor in order to let her know that I have nothing to do with any possible death threats, or any assaults upon her life.
This way, if she DOES get attacked or killed, I have a "Get Out Of Jail" ticket. Everything's been documented very well.
Anything else that happens, I take no responsibility for.
Ed, personal attacks will be deleted.
There is a comment policy on this site. Abide by that policy or take your comments elsewhere.
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And as far as we can tell, Tony Koo has not advocated physical assault. If any such comment can be found, we will delete it.
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*deleted* And banned.
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Tony - I'm still amazed as to why the author actually wanted to pursue the FBI. If you told her the local FBI agents are Asian men I wonder she will get a heart attack?
Hey, I have NOTHING to hide. Jaymie asked me if I'd write an article. She said it'll be open. So I wrote it. then she deleted any trace of it. When I emailed her about it, she accused me of threatening her and that she contacted the FBI about me. SHE HAS NO HONOR!!!
Tony 3/23/08Jaymie,
What kind of Counter-Article are you talking about?
Please describe. I may be interested.
Jaymie3/23/08
Hello
Hi Tony, We're open, please feel free to send us an email to staff@asiancemagazine.com and we can discuss.. Looking forward to it..thanks. -jaymie
Tony 3/23/08
Open?
OK, why don't you tell me what you DON'T want to see in a counter article?
Jaymie 3/23/08
don't think this website is crap
Hi Don't think the website is crap and not planning on any housecleaning. Will however let any asian man who is willing to step up and put a name to article to most certainly publish it. When I said open, I meant we're open to any angle you would like to bring in whether it's dating asian women, being an Asian man dating and the problems dating an Asian woman, media not portraying Asian men in the proper light...whatever you think. If you want to do an opinion piece that is fine as well. DON'T want to see Asian women called whores, c*nts, sellouts, etc,, -jaymie
Tony 3/23/08
American Asian or Asian Amierican?
Jaymie, OK, if there's that much leeway,then I think I'll write something about the difference between the terms "American Asian" vs. "Asian American" and how it relates to our true identity as Americans of Asian descent or as Asians living in America. I'll start on it as soon as I can. -TK
Tony 3/23/08
Actually Jaymie, I think I'll focus my article from a more
Asian American Male's perspective. I'll keep you posted.
See for youself:
http://asiancemagazine.com/apr_2...n_women?
page=21
A little research on the site and it was in fact started by Jaymie Moran in 2004. It's been 4 years since then and the website barely got any attraction, well, until this piece surfaced.
Mrs Moran is appearing to delete any comment that isn't necessarily offensive from one poster to another, but towards the site. I'm not surprised she trashed your article if you critized the site in any way, albeit even in a reasonable and polite manner.
James, just because that article was a "chick-lit" fluff piece doesn't mean it is not representative of a certain type of mindset that is prevalent in *some* Asian women.
Sure, it is easy to laugh it off as the silly ruminations of an immature women on a 3rd-rate website. But you have to look at it from the perspective of Asian men. We're telling you one thing (of which you have doubts as to the seriousness of or the prevalance of,)and lo and behold here is this article which affirms everything we have been saying all along.
So either this piece should be taken by itself in a vacuum......or you can view is as being representative or a larger mentality.
Now, in regards to your comment on "thought-policing", I honestly find that ridiculous. You might as well say government Affirmative Action programs and anti-discrimination laws are acting as "thought-police" because it is forcing people to behave a certain way.
Nobody here is "forcing" these women to do anything. We are merely pointing out certain trends and behaviors that we feel are racist.
In a way, all Asian men are asking for is *equal consideration* and the right to not be unfairly stereotyped. Isn't that what ALL of us here want?
Hey, is anyone having trouble opening their site? Or is it just me?
re: Happy Days
Actually, I think I was unintentionally channeling James Dean. I wanted to add in 'smoking cigarettes', but thought better of it.
Here's my problem on that front Randy - Jenn writes about Asian American feminism all the time, and always from a gender inclusive perspective where neither gender has any influence or control over the other.
Jenn's feminism is not unique in this regard; it's standard among third-wave feminists, especially third-wave feminists of color who understand the truth of 'we're all in this together' racial identification.
Yet Jenn's feminism (and Asian American feminism in general) is routinely dismissed as too antagonistic toward and too dismissive of Asian male interests to matter to the general community. When Jenn's perspective is accepted as positive by some Asian men, she's seen as an eternal outlier, the exception that proves that most Asian women are sellouts who desire White men to the exclusion of everything else.
Asian men routinely come to this blog and promote these views. Why? Why is Jenn (an Asian woman who respects Asian male sexuality) seen as unique when Ms. Bandong (an Asian woman who, one can argue, does not respect Asian male sexuality) is seen as common?
Isn't it possible that the Asian men who hyperventilate over op-eds like the one from Ms. Bandong are simply not fairly observing the popularity and intensity of anti-Asian male sentiment among Asian women?
I honestly do not believe that Asian men are hypersensitive, and do not mean to suggest that. But I am concerned that stuff like Ms. Bandong's op-ed is promoted by some of its victims to proportions far past the writing's intent.
Let's face it - the real tragedy here is that people read Ms. Bandong, hate it, and then read Jenn's protests in favor of gender equality in the Asian American community as another Bandongian assault on Asian masculinity. That's the danger here.
Randy, the woman wrote chick lit, not a public policy directive.
[quote] Why? Why is Jenn (an Asian woman who respects Asian male sexuality) seen as unique when Ms. Bandong (an Asian woman who, one can argue, does not respect Asian male sexuality) is seen as common?[/quote]
Because in a white patriarchal system that tries to eliminate asian men as sexual competition (thereby making desirable asian women more easier to influence, and add to their harem of women).
As far as proof goes, I regularly encounter it where ever I go, in San Francisco, L.A, Thailand. All around the world, most asian women, even the most nice and well-intentioned of them are clueless about this issue.
There'd be no incentive and need for most asian women to be aware of in the first place if they were to stand to benefit from it; Kind of like in a hyptothetical situation where if asian men were universally desired by all females, the marginalization and plight of asian women would go largely ignored in the same way.
looks like asiance has selectively blocked out any ip's critical of their bullshit website.
James, if you want Asian men to respect the diversity of thought in Asian Feminism, perhaps you should do the same and respect the diversity of attitudes among Asian Men who are tired of being victims of racism by their own kind.
Not all of us go around calling AF's SOW's or whatever. We're not all spitting out bile and negativity. And many of us DO respect Asian feminism. I cannot speak for others, only for myself and my own conduct, so don't lump my attitudes in with others on here who may have behaved poorly.
I have no clue what a SOW is. That was part of the reason I thought Jenn's original reference was bullshit.
"don't lump my attitudes in with others on here who may have behaved poorly."
......... Ya mean like you've done with Asian American feminism?
......... Ya mean like you've done with Asian American feminism?
Are you serious, or just trolling? Not everyone you are addressing has done this, and even if they had, it wouldn't justify your own stereotyping. It'd just be you adding yourself to a stack of misguided people.
No, it is not trolling (I wrote the last comment, by the way).
But, yes -- it's completely ironic for Randy to lament being lumped in with those who have behaved egregiously when he, and Jaehwan, dimiss and marginalize the *entirety* of Asian American feminism because they disagree (rightly or wrongly) with the writings of Maxine Hong Kingston and Amy Tan.
It is completely ironic for Randy to lament being lumped in with those who behave badly when it is he who uses the example of one chick-lit writer as proof-positive that a significantly (yet conveniently undefined) "large" number of Asian American women hate their Asian American male brothers.
It is completely ironic that Randy plays the victim because he doesn't want to be generalized as the same as the extremist men who throw around terms like SOW ("Sellout Whore", used tongue-in-cheek because it is also a female pig) to refer to any Asian American woman whom they dislike.
Meanwhile, just today, I got another email from Eric, who has been harassing Asian American female activists with anti-female emails. In this one, he castigated Michelle Wie for her non-Asian boyfriend (as if *that* matters in the slightest) and topped off the email by explaining that this -- this is why he "doesn't support any Asian American female celebrity".
Am I stereotyping Randy and Jaehwan? I dunno. If I am, it's certainly because I'm failing to see how their invokation of Kingston, Tan and now this Asiance writer as the reason why me and *my* feminism hurts the Asian American community can be allowed, whereas my invokation of folks like Eric who call me a SOW (on the F44 site, although it's true that this was awhile ago) is suddenly completely uncomprehensible.
Yes, we all need to stop stereotyping. And yes, in my post, I said that included me.
But give me a reason why I should. You don't give a shit about feminism, why should I give a shit about your issues? You, Randy, and to a lesser extent Jaehwan, don't listen to any argument I've brought up, but just use my posts as a new soapbox to bring up the same, tired, anecdote-dependent bullshit. So, if you don't respect me and my views, why should I respect yours?
But give me a reason why I should. You don't give a shit about feminism, why should I give a shit about your issues? You, Randy, and to a lesser extent Jaehwan, don't listen to any argument I've brought up, but just use my posts as a new soapbox to bring up the same, tired, anecdote-dependent bullshit. So, if you don't respect me and my views, why should I respect yours?
I've spent the last four years trying to give men like yourselves a place to air out issues of the emasculation stereotype.
And for what? What have I gotten out of it?
Do you respect feminism any more than you did before you read this site? Have you learned to listen to women as much as you expect us to listen to you?
Or has my site just turned into a stomping ground for angry Asian men? Where reason gives way to ad hominem attacks and the same 'ol griping by Asian American men which a trying-to-do-right Asian American woman can never win, no matter how hard she tries?
And y'know, it's my fucking fault for looking for a way to unite with Asian American men on this issue in the first place. I can't win this argument; you guys are too hell-bent to blame *anybody* but the White men who have put you in this place in the first place. You will actually try to dismantle *feminism* -- a political view which, if Jaehwan's F44 post is to be believed, you have absolutely *no* understanding of, rather than to actually try to fight the stereotypes that are actually emasculating you.
" That was part of the reason I thought Jenn's original reference was bullshit."
Yeah, because telling men and women to stop blaming each other is *such* bullshit.
Y'know what, I have too much work to do to put up with this bullshit. I have a job to not get fired from, and two political campaigns I'm working on to get good people elected.
Y'know, shit that's not sitting at a keyboard, angry at people you will never meet in life. Shit that's actually changing the world around me.
Let me know when you guys are interested in working to find a solution, instead of turning a valid argument about emasculation stereotypes into feminist-bashing.
Wow, you know, up until now, I've been more or less ignoring these messages that have been going back and forth between you folks.
I don't know if it's because I don't understand some of the theories or if it's because your posts seem too long to read or maybe (heaven forbid) I just found the discussions to be rather dry...
In any event, there's no doubt that I've been witnessing some hot and heavy discussions concerning feminism and emasculation.
Look, it's my opinion that while this display of mental masturbation can be fun, the truth is that none of this stuff really matters. You guys have been going back and forth...but with what results?
Look, these discussions will only be valuable if there could be any positive action that comes out of it.
I'm sure that you guys have tremendous amount of intellectual power. But unfortunately, almost all of your discussions have been purely academic. I don't think that any of you have really taken any steps in actually DOING something.
Take some action. Go out, find and understand the problem. Figure it out and fix it.
-Take some action. Go out, find and -understand the problem. Figure it out -and fix it.
Are you serious? If any of you had any real insight into the nature of the problem, trying to institute any real change is completely futile. It's like cutting the top off a weed, but having it grow back within a day because you didn't bother or are completely unable to remove the root.
Because the root of the problem stems from the racial hierarchy itself. To reorganize the racial hierarchy, asian people have to dominante, displace, and subjugate white people under military, economic, social domination on a mass collective scale much in the same way white americans wiped out the indigenous native americans, and great britian conquered and colonized many different parts of the world.
Relative equality can be achieved temporarily in an imperfect way, but true equality is a myth. There is no such thing as equality, it is always a neverending power struggle.
Want to change things? Let's see if asian-americans can use their home-bought SKS rifles to shootdown U.S army Apache helicopters, tanks, planes, nukes, and take over the entire U.S government. You see that's what it will take if you want REAL change.
Good luck, Fellas.
"I'm sure that you guys have tremendous amount of intellectual power. But unfortunately, almost all of your discussions have been purely academic. I don't think that any of you have really taken any steps in actually DOING something.
Take some action. Go out, find and understand