Have you read our Comment Policy?
"(WM/AF in IR, accused by an AAM of being a SOW on F44 and MM) "
This is a divisive and incorrect characterization, Jenn. AAM (e.g. Eric and some other militant posters) on reapppropriate also accuse women of the same thing. I've seen sexist innuendos on the NY Times blogs as well--gosh, those Times editors are SO SEXIST. Gosh, reappropriate is SO SEXIST. It's flat out wrong.
Your call for unity is not going to happen if we're not being fair in evaluating different options and ways of thinking for Asian Americans. You're entitled to your own free speech, but seriously, this borders on slanderous. It's especially insulting to the women who participate on the 44's.
If you really want to further the cause of feminism, why not blog on what you feel about the feminist/womanist ideas on the 44's, rather than just attacking the site itself just because some fringe poster used the term SOW (and quite honestly, I don't remember when the last time someone on the 44's used the term.).
Thanks, Tony, Jenn, and all others for getting the ball rolling on this. It's pathetic and downright shameful that mainstream teenybopper mags can be more truthful and more culturally sensitive than ethnic publications(!). Sad.
Jaehwan,
That comment was intended to show the alphabet soup of acronyms that have come to characterize the IR debate -- which has gotten so ridiculous that it's practically it's own language -- I mean, you and I understand what that sentence said, but the average person has NO idea what that alphabet soup of acronyms mean.
It was not to make any particular statement about the Fighting 44's site. It was to demonstrate how completely marginalized this debate has gotten, wherein you have to practically learn a new language to participate.
I think you are getting unduly defensive here. This was NOT a commentary on your site as some sort of sexist bastion. It was a commentary on the ludicrousness that I can write something like
"(WM/AF in IR, accused by an AAM of being a SOW on F44 and MM)"
... and you can even understand what the FUCK I'm talking about.
I mean, look at that sentence. Just step back and look at it. Right there, how much this debate has distracted us from the issues of the White mainstream hegemony that implemented this institution of stereotypes in order to impose racial control -- at this point, we are so busy talking amongst ourselves that we've. stopped. speaking. English.
But because it bothers you that much, I have altered it to write "(WM/AF in IR accused by an AAM of being a SOW on MM and AFs spekaing out on F44)", so that you can see that I was not trying to characterize the site, I was trying to make an example of all the acronyms we're throwing around.
But again, I think you're nitpicking on a detail in order to miss the entire larger part of this post.
Awewome! It's always good to fight on the right side of such blatant racial injustice.
They'll bend. If they don't, we'll have to get the big guns. I know of several groups that would be interested in hearing about this.
Angry Asian Man
MANAA
Fallout Central
And others. In the end, their site will be a laughing stock. Whatever happens, we'll be able to teach others about what's right and wrong when it comes to racial stereotying.
You see everyone, if we don't challenge messages like these, people will assume that they're OK to internalize and promote.
Thanks everyone for working together on this.
And Jenn, I don't care if you edit the entire letter. As long as you can improve upon it, I'm happy. 
thank you jenn, tony et al, for stepping up to the plate on this!
you guys are my heros!
chris
"But again, I think you're nitpicking on a detail in order to miss the entire larger part of this post."
I reiterate, Jaehwan, while I appreciate your comments and your insight on this matter, it frustrates me to no end to discuss these issues and to write how I feel on the subject, only to have you focus on one part to the exclusion of the larger point.
Are there female mods at F44 -- many of whom identify as feminist? I'm sure, but as a former female mod on a site that was -- compared to other extremist sites -- a faily balanced and academic forum, sexism still can run rampant and virtually unopposed by even male mods -- some of whom even encourage that kind of attitude.
My point remains that you are pretty much the only blogger on the main site. You haven't focused on the formation of body image concerns, domestic abuse, or sexism that targets women within the Asian American community, nor have you made efforts to outreach to bloggers to do that. And that's not to say that there's anything wrong with that -- Angry Asian Man wouldn't be Angry Asian Man if he suddenly started talking exclusively about women. F44 has made a niche for itself focusing on what it's focusing on -- my point is that it should be able to exist where it is, and there needs to be a counterbalance somewhere in the Asian American blogosphere that allows for feminist ideas to flourish *as well* (not instead of Asian American male ideas).
Rather than to get defensive, this post suggests that you stop and interrogate where you might be too rigid in the way you're coming at this. And this post implores that I do it too. We're so gender nationalist that we've stopped listening to the other side of the debate; we're too fast to react and defend, rather than listen and compromise. This post was as much a condemnation of me as it is of you -- it was a condemnation of the debate, and the corners we've painted ourselves into.
I didn't call F44 sexist, but your reaction is an example of the problem. I know why you got mad, I know why you got defensive: but this should show the limitations of how we've framed the debate that even so simple a statement as what I've said can be misconstrued as yet another epic feminist vs. Asian American male attack.
I don't know how to change the parameters of the debate. But I think it has to be changed. I think I have to be able to criticize F44 as somewhat male-centric, and you need to be able to advocate that some feminists be more conscious of the Asian American male perspective -- and we need to not have that turn into men and women all fighting over a single piece of the pie and tearing each other to pieces in so doing.
Incidentally, I'm not on F44, because I have been targeted with misogynistic comments on the site in the past, and I think called a SOW there -- long before you became a part of the team (in fact, I do remember that it was where I first came across the term and was disgusted by it). And fr
To: editor@falloutcentral.com,angryminsoo@angryasianma
n.com,manaaletters@yahoo.com
Hello,
I wanted to inform you of an Asian American Womens website that's been writing some articles stereotying and disparaging Asian American men. See for yourself:
http://asiancemagazine.com/mar_2...ian_men?
page=11
We were wondering if you might have some answers. We've already tried posting dozens of messages on their comments section. And we've also sent numerous emails, but with no response. I thought that it'd be time to bring in the big guns and that's why I'm contacting you. Can you please assit?
Also, the Editor there said she’d publish what I write. Here it is. I emailed her and let’s see if she actually publishes it. However, she's gone back on her word and continuously deletes it every time I post it on her website:
OK, I’ll try to keep this short and simple.
I find it absolutely disgusting that I would even need to write a “counter article” to contest the racist, sexist and inflammatory comments against Asian Americans made by a fellow Asian American (Elysia Bandong) on an Asian American website (Asiancemazine.com). How is this even possible? I thought that we Asian Americans all have one goal, and that’s to fight to be treated equally, fairly and with respect. But I guess I was wrong.
On March 5th 2008, Elysia Bandong, a Filipino American woman, wrote an article on an Asian American website called “Asiancemazine.com” that was titled “A Few Good Asian Men”. Based on the title, I thought was going to be a positive an article about Asian American men. Unfortunately, I was very very wrong.
I couldn’t believe what I was reading. The general idea of the article is that ALL Asian men are alike. It seems that we all have some terrible traits that make us very unattractive as mates and lovers such as being “too easy”, “too considerate”, and too “respectful”...oooooo we’re just awful, aren’t we? Here are a few additional excepts from her article:
“Asian men are similar to trained puppy dogs. They’re cute and obedient…but highly predictable and more or less boring.”
“I can tell you pretty much what every Asian guy I dated was like and how they looked because they were all the same.”
“All the guys would wear a collared shirt and blazer with neat jeans. Around their neck was a gold chain with a crucifix.”
After all these years that Asian Americans have fought and struggled to shatter Asian stereotypes among non-Asians, Elysia has single-handedly managed to undermine all of that work with just a few slanderous paragraphs made against Asian American men and then displaying them on the internet for all to see.
Elysia should know better. Being an Asian American woman herself, I’m sure that she’s already felt the sting of not just racism, but also sexism. That’s why it totally shocked me to read such racist and sexist material come out of her
Well, it looks like she's continusly deleting my posts now. The only other thing I can do now is contact as many Asian American organizations about their website. After that, I've done all I can do.
staff_asiancemagazine.com wrote:
Tony,
We have contacted the FBI in regards to your threats to this magazine during March 24th and March 25th. These types of threats need to be noted in today's day and age. We will pursue accordingly.
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 13:06:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tony Koo <
Subject: RE: My Article for you to post on you magazine
To: staff_asiancemagazine.com
What threats are you talking about? Can you please elaborate?
Oh, but the way, EVERYTHING that's happened here has been well documented in 3 other websites. EVERYTHING..even my warning to people about not doing anything stupid.
If the FBI wants to take a look , they're more than welcomed to do so:
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/...0&
#entry3593910
http://modelminority.com/bb/view...=25773&
start=40
http://www.reappropriate.com/?p=1128
http://www.reappropriate.com/?p=1135
Don't try to scare me with empty threats. Bring the FBI...I'll tell them EXACTLY what's happened.
And then you'll look like an even BIGGER FOOL.
Go ahead, delete this. Do you want me to call the FBI myself?
I'M NOT SCARED OF YOU!!! GET THAT Though you head!!!
I've just recently discovered reappropriate and wanted to give my props as well as post my contribution to the letter writing campaign (below). Sorry if it was too long, but I felt motivated to write every word of it.
Let's keep the letters coming! Thank you, reappropriate!
---
Dear Editor(s) of Asiance,
I came across one of your March 5th articles, "A Few Good Asian Men" by Elysia Bandong. As a Filipina and as an Asian American individual, I found this article ignorant, hateful, and contrary to the goals your website purports to strive for.
It's bad in itself that Bandong thinks it acceptable to perpetuate stereotypes of our culture. It's worse that she attempts to expand these stereotypes to the greater Asian American community, presumably to snag the larger, general population of Asian American readers. It should go without saying that despite commonalities, there are clear distinctions that make the Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Indian, Filipino, etc. cultures what they are.
Furthermore, Bandong claims this set of stereotypes she ascribes to makes dating Asian men "easier" because "there's less to work with." She writes that " Asian men are similar to trained puppy dogs." These statements depreciate the value of our Asian brothers, making it appear as if they have less worth and less complexity as an individual human being. This magazine should be elevating the status of Asian American women, but not at the expense of pushing down our Asian American men.
At the very least, it's a poor, unprofessional composition, even if it is an opinion-based piece. I understand that a growing publication, especially one dedicated to a marginalized group or cause, needs every writer they can get. However, that is no excuse for sweeping aside ethical or journalistic standards.
Bandong's musings are riddled with generalizations and lapses in logic:
"They're cute and obedient." I hate to point this out, but I am fairly certain there are Asian American men whom some might consider ugly, perhaps even fugly. Similarly, I am fairly certain that there have been Asian American men who have disregarded authority--parent, teacher, law or otherwise.
"Everybody loves them." Doesn't the term "everybody" encompass Bandong as well? And if everybody loves them, why don't we see more positive visibility of Asian American men in mainstream American media?
I will concede that Bandong is entitled to her opinion, but as an editor of a magazine that speaks to and on behalf of a greater population, it is his or her duty to moderate the content of what it publishes and evaluate whether or not this content aligns with the heart and core of the publication's vision. It is for this reason that I request the retraction of this article, a formal apology from Bandong and the editor(s) of Asiance, and that these parties undergo sensitivity training to address issues of racism and stereotyping in opinion-writing.
If such actions an
(Sorry... I was truncated = Anyway, here's my concluding remark.)
If such actions and words as these continue to go unchecked at Asiance.com and in our community in general, if we do not acknowledge the power of solidarity between our Asian American brothers and sisters, we cannot hope to achieve the progress in social equality and justice that we desire for ourselves and for our posterity.
Thank you for your time and efforts.
Respectfully,
--
Wendy Natividad
Tony,
Sorry to hear that, man. Wow. The lengths people will go through to keep a man down. Not only are you fighting their racism, but now you're also fighting the FBI. Good luck.
"I don't know how to change the parameters of the debate. But I think it has to be changed. I think I have to be able to criticize F44 as somewhat male-centric, and you need to be able to advocate that some feminists be more conscious of the Asian American male perspective -- and we need to not have that turn into men and women all fighting over a single piece of the pie and tearing each other to pieces in so doing.
Incidentally, I'm not on F44, because I have been targeted with misogynistic comments on the site in the past, and I think called a SOW there -- long before you became a part of the team (in fact, I do remember that it was where I first came across the term and was disgusted by it)."
Jenn,
They used to never ban people. That's what happens when there is no moderation--you saw that here as well. (The only reason women don't get called out on this site is that most of your posters happen to be men. This, too, has nothing to do with sexism from your site, though it could be sexism in the general culture.)
As xian mentioned in another post, the access for women on the blog has always been there. Yes, I'm probably the most frequent blogger, and I happen to be male. But it has nothing to do with there being any systemic suppression of female voices.
"Asian American feminism has always underscored a need for both genders to be heard, to be equal, and ultimately to be united in the common goal of ending gender-based discrimination. "
That's true of you, Jenn, but it's not true of Asian American feminism in general. At least that hasn't been my experience.
Anyway, I'm going to take a breather for a few days on this issue. Thanks for hearing me.
I've already called her bluff. I have nothing to hide.
asiance. what a freakin joke. way to go, tony. don't back down. they're fulla shit anyway. threats? the only threat you made was exposing their racist agenda.
looks like capitulation is near.
Well, it looks like this thing's now got a mind of its own now.
My main priority is to keep on fighting, but making sure I keep my hands clean, and I hope that others will agree with that.
We can't do anything about other people making threats, but just make sure the rest of you don't get into any trouble, OK?
It looks like they're not allowing any more posts on their website:
http://asiancemagazine.com/mar_2...ian_men?
page=12
However, email is always open:
Staff@asiancemagazine.com
Just don't harass or make any kinds of threats.
*deleted*
Hm...my login ID's been deleted and my email to Staff@asiancemagazine.com bounced back. Oh well...I think I'm out of ideas at this point.
The only remaining thing I can do it to contact the major Asian American Orgs...I'll work on that tonight.
If I didn't read it carefully, I could have sworn that this was about a magazine where the guilty party was white.
Asian Americans writing to an Asian American woman's magazine to knock off the racism against Asian American men. Now I've seen it all.
*deleted*
"As xian mentioned in another post, the access for women on the blog has always been there. Yes, I'm probably the most frequent blogger, and I happen to be male. But it has nothing to do with there being any systemic suppression of female voices."
I don't deny that female bloggers have access to blogging on F44. But the truth of it is that female bloggers don't blog on F44.
I don't think there's systemic suppression going on, but I do think that women having access to blog and choosing not to is indicative that there is some obstacle to expressing a female perspective on the blog: perhaps it is lack of time, lack of outreach, lack of retention, lack of incentive, or simple reluctance to open oneself to a backlash of sexism.
Whatever it is, for whatever reason, the F44 blog -- as it is manifested -- lacks a gender-based diversity, as does many of the most prominent Asian American political blogs.
That's not a criticism in the sense that you think it is -- it is a call for an acknolwedgement that Asian American women's voices are not being heard in the politicized APIA blogosphere, so up to this point, we are hearing about APIA identity through a male filter. And there is need for that -- I don't think F44 or MM or YW or AAM need to change; but I think it needs to be counter-balanced with equal time somewhere in the blogosphere for female-oriented perspectives.
I'm asking for you to acknowledge the situation -- to acknowledge that men are dominating the debate in the blogosphere, not finding you (or men in general) to blame for it. Just acknowledge that this is a problem.
""Asian American feminism has always underscored a need for both genders to be heard, to be equal, and ultimately to be united in the common goal of ending gender-based discrimination. "
That's true of you, Jenn, but it's not true of Asian American feminism in general. At least that hasn't been my experience."
Again, Jaehwan, that *is* the perspective of Asian American feminism, particularly third-wave feminists. Unfortunately, your access and experience with feminism is hardly representative; from your previous comments, it is clear that you are not distinguishing between extreme fundamentalist forms of mainstream first-wave feminism and all that has come since.
I think I can safely say I know a little more about APIA feminism than you do, and all my reading, my interaction with feminists, and my own writings indicate that Asian American feminism is an off-shoot of third-wave feminism, which includes as one of its basic tenets gender equality for both genders -- but which tends to favour speaking out from a female perspective because that is the perspective that usually gets ignored. However, in speaking as a woman, feminists do not advocate a limitation or castigation of men, rather a castigation of *sexism* and *patriarchy* within the Asian American community and equal time and equal treatment for women.
Asian American feminist
Asian American feminists speak of male privilege. But that doesn't mean that they are looking to place men inferior to women -- but to challenge the privileges that men refuse to see but nonetheless enjoy within our community.
Chris and Robby,
Your comments have been deleted for references to physical assault and violence, which is unacceptable forms of expression, particularly on an ongoing campaign.
ok, sorry about that, jenn.
i was encouraged with tony's exuberent campaign and promising results.
Just because there was some R rated content doesn't mean that it was directed towards a person.
The next phase will now involve FalloutCentral. I just spoke to its founder and he wants me to write an Editorial on his website about this topic.
"Whatever it is, for whatever reason, the F44 blog -- as it is manifested -- lacks a gender-based diversity, as does many of the most prominent Asian American political blogs."
Fine. Agreed. But that includes your blog too. Aside from the fact that you are the only blogger here, the vast majority of posters are men. So it's a general problem, not a specific one. I hope we can agree on this too.
Maybe the answer to to have more women-only blogs. But this wouldn't have anything to do with race--as you mentioned in one of your posts, it's mostly about gender.
"I think I can safely say I know a little more about APIA feminism than you do"
I don't know if that's the case. From our conversations, it seems that we know just about as much about Kingston and Tan as the other. If there are other modern day APIA feminists who have achieved great things, please educate me (and Yuri really isn't a feminist unless you stretch the definition. Helen Zia is an exception.). From what I've seen, many self-described Asian American feminists just drive men out of their organizations with personal attacks and then complain that people won't listen to them or join them. You call it "fundamentalist" and "first wave," but it's the norm, and it takes place in the modern day.
In any case, what is it that you really want, Jenn? It seems like this "feminism" thing is nothing more than a label. We had that discussion about domestic violence, and you seemed to be trying really hard to pin the tail on the Asian man because it's the Asian American "feminist" thing to do. And even after the author of the domestic violence report corrected your analysis, though you honorably accepted her correction, you still seemed to want to blame Asian men for something (and the "Asian" part is significant). We've had discussions about "feminists" like Hong Kingston who lie about Asian men and Asian culture, and even though you qualify your criticism by calling it "ill advised," it's clearly neither morally right nor in the best interest of unity to spread stereotypes and lies.
So what is it that you really want? If you really want unity, maybe "feminism" isn't the right vehicle for you. Maybe you need something separate from all the crazy and unethical stuff that the more prominent self-described Asian American feminists have done. It's never too late to change course.
And by the way, feel free to disagree with anything I said. From the posts of your other readers, I am not the only one who wonders why you embrace this religion so strongly. Maybe we could have unity if you let us know why you feel the way you do about this. I just look around at these APA feminists, and I see how little they've achieved and how much discord they've spread, and I wonder why anyone would embrace it,especially as it more often than not supports racism against Asian men. (Apologies if this is blunt.)
I'm asking for you to acknowledge the situation -- to acknowledge that men are dominating the debate in the blogosphere, not finding you (or men in general) to blame for it. Just acknowledge that this is a problem.
I do think you are placing blame or at pushing a value judgment here. I agree that the only logical forms of empowerment--feminism, anti-racist, etc.--must focus on alleviating the damage that institutions of inequality do to EVERYONE in the society.
However, when you take a group that is horribly underrepresented in mainstream voice, and say that it is "dominating" a constructed community, you are making a value judgment.
It reminds me of the conversation we often have challenging so-called Asian American literature in which empathetic female voices and ALL male voices are often marginalized due to mainstream exotified preferences.
But why are we treating this as a zero sum game? The solution is not for a demographic of Asian American women who are being published to STOP writing, it is to promote a more diverse group that reflects the perspectives of our community to write and demand that they are published.
I mean, let's be real--these are the same problems that many of our social justice communities face. I mean good intentions don't automatically turn into diverse and equal participation.
I know you know this, but the simple fact is that just being right doesn't solve all the problems facing our community.
I guess I'm just frustrated because we are trying and some of us spend most of our waking hours pushing gender equal strains of feminism and building opportunities for young women to take leading roles. For a wide variety of possible reasons, it's not translating into a slew of front page articles by females with the front page keys.
But I'm not seeing any substantive suggestions for improvement.
Isn't there an irony that you make a needed call for unity but use one of the sites that you say is necessary as an example of what's wrong with community?
OK, I just sent emails to:
APA For Progress
YellowWorld
Arizona Asian American Association
Asian American Institute
Asian American Journalist Association
In addition to the ones I've already sent to MANAA, FalloutCentral, and Angry Asian Man.
Also, this story is well known in
ModelMinority
AsiaFinest
and Reappropriate.com
That's pretty much it folks. I've done all I can at this point.
Fallout Central wants me to write an editorial write an Editorial from an Asian man's prespective. But that'll be for another day...
i though asiance wanted you to write a piece?
While I don't know about everyone else, i'm quite happy that everyone's found a topic to agree about, and i'm now convinced that despite what I might have thought in the past about this website. Now I know Jenn here is doing alot for asian men , and I think most of you asian guys aren't giving her enough credit here especially in light of the article (whose opinion may resonate with the overwhelming majority of asian-american females).
But as far as the bickering goes; the objectification of the other gender intrinsically stems from sexual desire itself. No one is above each other, including myself.
Until you guys realize this and are able to accept the way things are as imperfect, everyone will be over intellectualizing the issue and keep attacking each other over this issue. (ie: completely missing the whole point ).
I don't mean to be a jerk but I honestly don't understand why AF are surprised at this type of reaction. Everything stemming from this hate filled rhetoric directed towards AF is merely a reaction to what has been building in the Asian American male community for years which no one cares to acknowledge.
As I always say, "garbage in, garbage out."
This is why I laugh when AF *and* AM don't see this issue as a big deal. It's a huge issue. It's just that no one likes to talk or acknowledge it for two reasons:
1.) Fighting an "outside" enemy is always easier. It takes little to no effort to rally a people in fighting an outside entity.
2.) Neither side wishes to yield any ground. The art of negotiation is lost. In order for both parities to feel satisfied, both part parties need to feel like they lost something.
Also, I laughed at your disclaimer at the bottom of the article.
" i though asiance wanted you to write a piece?"
I've already written it. I sent it to them and then they erased everything I sent. I did it over and over and they kept on deleting it. That got me pissed. We had an agreement and they backed out of it.
They have no honor. Here's the article I wrote for them:
OK, I’ll try to keep this short and simple.
I find it absolutely disgusting that I would even need to write a “counter article” to contest the racist, sexist and inflammatory comments against Asian Americans made by a fellow Asian American (Elysia Bandong) on an Asian American website (Asiancemazine.com). How is this even possible? I thought that we Asian Americans all have one goal, and that’s to fight to be treated equally, fairly and with respect. But I guess I was wrong.
On March 5th 2008, Elysia Bandong, a Filipino American woman, wrote an article on an Asian American website called “Asiancemazine.com” that was titled “A Few Good Asian Men”. Based on the title, I thought was going to be a positive an article about Asian American men. Unfortunately, I was very very wrong.
I couldn’t believe what I was reading. The general idea of the article is that ALL Asian men are alike. It seems that we all have some terrible traits that make us very unattractive as mates and lovers such as being “too easy”, “too considerate”, and too “respectful”...oooooo we’re just awful, aren’t we? Here are a few additional excepts from her article:
“Asian men are similar to trained puppy dogs. They’re cute and obedient…but highly predictable and more or less boring.”
“I can tell you pretty much what every Asian guy I dated was like and how they looked because they were all the same.”
“All the guys would wear a collared shirt and blazer with neat jeans. Around their neck was a gold chain with a crucifix.”
After all these years that Asian Americans have fought and struggled to shatter Asian stereotypes among non-Asians, Elysia has single-handedly managed to undermine all of that work with just a few slanderous paragraphs made against Asian American men and then displaying them on the internet for all to see.
Elysia should know better. Being an Asian American woman herself, I’m sure that she’s already felt the sting of not just racism, but also sexism. That’s why it totally shocked me to read such racist and sexist material come out of her.
This type of message cannot be tolerated. Not only does it stereotype and pigeon hole the image of Asian American men, but it also allows non-Asians to do the same since now, they can always say, “Well, Elysia’s Asian American, and even SHE thinks that way about Asian American men.” We cannot condone this and we definitely should not promote this.
As Asian Americans, we already have a difficult time as it is in trying to fight and struggle for equality and respect. It’s understandable that we have struggle for this among those outside the Asian American community, but we sho
but we shouldn’t have to do it within our community as well.
-Tony Koo
YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BELIEVE THIS!!!!
THE FOUNDER/EDITOR OF ASIANCE IS NOT EVEN ASIAN:
SEE LINK: Although she is not of Asian descent, she established this magazine to pursue her love of writing and various cultures.
http://www.asiansinamerica.org/d...ms/
ny_asnc.html
What the hell kind of a world do we live in?
Do you think that if a white woman started a website about black women that it would go unnoticed by black organizations? God, this totally reminds me of Chinese Laundry.
unbelievable, huh tony?
jenn, i anxiously await your response to this revelation...
also reminds me of asian boston magazine. founder is the classic white guy asiaphile:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asi...ki/
Asian_Boston
" also reminds me of asian boston magazine. founder is the classic white guy asiaphile:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asi...ki/ Asian_Boston"
Chris, can you give me an update about this magazine?
it's everything you would expect. white dude has fetish for asian women...starts magazine featuring young asian women in boston area....causes uproar in asian community....changes whole concept of magazine to placate asian community....somehow still publishing?
really boggles my mind how the asian community would even support this kind of shit.
just goes to show how if you're white, you can pull it off because there are asians that believe that a white person is automatically an authority on virtually anything...even on asian issues!!!!
sorry, here is the correct link to asian boston magazine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asi...ki/
Asian_Boston
"jenn, i anxiously await your response to this revelation..."
Considering I had never heard of Asiance magazine before and will not visit the site again, I honestly can't be bothered to be angry abou it.
The quality of writing is really low, and it has virtually no prominence amongst APIA women, so as far as I'm concerned, it's yet another net-based start-up trying to market online writing.
If anything this should just show how critically we need APIA-originated forms of arts and media, which in the blogosphere means frequenting (and hey, respecting!) APIA-originated sites like this one, rather than circling like vultures to tear apart folks within the community we don't like.
Well, if he's already changed the format, then I don't think we need to pursue it.
I can't say with complete certainty, but I think it'll be hard to actually close a business down.
Even with Asiance, I want them to change. I don't necessarily want them to shut down their site.
and herein lies the problem. lack of unity among both asian females and males:
"Considering I had never heard of Asiance magazine before and will not visit the site again, I honestly can't be bothered to be angry abou it."
when the whole "chinese laundry" story erupted asian men rallied for the cause. your complacency is disturbing and highly disappointing.
Their website will allows posts now:
http://asiancemagazine.com/mar_2...ian_men?
page=12
hahaha...i posted that the founder/editor jamie moron, was not asian and they deleted my comment and shut it down again!
it's fun calling out racists and exposing them for all to see.
Yup, I posted my article again and it got deleted again.
Dude, what are they trying to hide?
"Dude, what are they trying to hide?"
really don't know. if you check out the "about us" and do a search on them, they are mainly jewish men with asian wives. basically the website allows them to kiss their own ass and gloat how white guys get all the asian girls at the expense of asian men.
how does a website like this make any money, if at all? so what's is function?
Tony, I find interesting that your posts get deleted immediately but that other racist posts by white men on that site go unchallenged and uncensored. I have seen some incredibly blatant racist posts by white trolls on that site.
My guess is that the author of that article herself is the one doing the censoring.
i'm beginning to find a motive....check this out. this is an asiance article. they get paid to write these asiaphile articles for wm/af websites!!!!
http://www.findasiangirl.com/13.htm
Oh my God...can we confirm this? If so, this is great ammunition for totally discrediting their site.
Can take that link:
http://asiancemagazine.com/ apr_2...ing_asian_women
and the Asiance.com link:
http://asiancemagazine.com/
apr_2...ing_asian_women
and a short description and we can post it in every Asian American site we can think of!
Like I said, even if can't get them to change, we can make them into the laughing stock of the online Asian/non-Asian community!
Sorry, correct links:
http://www.findasiangirl.com/13.htm
http://asiancemagazine.com/
apr_2...ing_asian_women
What kind of site is this "findasiangirl"? I hit the link really quickly but didn't linger because it looked kinda sleazy and I am at work. The last thing I need is to have porno banner ads popping up all over my browser at work.
It would be very disturbing if this were all true. The Asiance site seems like it's trying to be a sort of a "Sex and the City" type site for young Asian women. But if they are really catering to the online dating crowd then they are really operating under false pretenses.
Some thoughts on this new controversy.
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That was not me that wrote that. Probably some insignificant white guy...shoo white guy...shoo
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James, some quick thoughts on your blog response about this issue:
I don't think it's fair or accurate to label our behavior and actions as immature or insensitive to Asian feminism. I for one have never used terms like "SOW" and I don't condone the actions of people who do engage in that kind of language.
Secondly, I think it's a little disengenous of you to compare Asian men's objections to Amy Tan/Hong-Kingston-type feminism to Sojourner Truth. Amy Tan and Maxine Hong-Kingston are still alive and publishing. Sojourner Truth lived over 100 years ago.
I also take issue with the idea that pointing out inter-group racism is disempowering to Asian women. Whether you choose to believe it or not, many Asian women are racist towards their fellow Asian men and this is reflected in their dating preferences. Internalized racism and colonialist mentality which makes White people the ideal choice is a very real phenomenon. (and this applies to Asian men as well as Asian women).
I've been to Hong Kong and have seen this colonialist mentality first-hand several times. I have seen Chinese waiters ignore seated Chinese patrons and rush over to serve white customers. I have Asian female friends who have mothers who have told them to date only white men.
*I have seen discrimination of Chinese against other Chinese in favor or white people.*
Hey Jenn!
Delete his ass!
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Just FYI everyone, this message is the only trace of this white guy that tried to start sh*t.
*deleted and banned*
oh my god look what asiancemagazine wrote about Tony!
"Secondly, I think it's a little disengenous of you to compare Asian men's objections to Amy Tan/Hong-Kingston-type feminism to Sojourner Truth. Amy Tan and Maxine Hong-Kingston are still alive and publishing. Sojourner Truth lived over 100 years ago. "
Steinam is still alive but feminism has long since moved past her brand of first-wave feminism.
Frankly, however, James' comment is apt. Arguing that APIA feminism can be defined exclusively by the writings of Kingston and Tan is exactly like saying that Black feminism should be defined by the writings of Sojourner Truth or White feminism (or all feminism) by the writings of Dworkin or Steinam.
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I don't think the quality of that magazine really warrants any serious readership other than those who want to reinforce the stereotype or hate themselves. At the very least, the sections in the dating section are just filled with Amy Tan style writing.
I did some research and it looks like they might be funded through some Benihana money.. I would tread lightly.
They're accepting new posts again.
http://asiancemagazine.com/mar_2...ian_men?
page=12
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Jenn, please delete chris chang's post concerning the personal information of Jaymie Moran!!!
For the record, neither Jenn Fang nor Tony Koo have anything to do with the posting of this information on this website. We have nothing to do with how this information will be used or misused.
OK, I'm done. I don't want any part of this anymore. It was cool when we were just expressing our disapproval of the article. But when you start passing out personal information like that...I don't see any purpose of that other than to either threaten, intimidate, or physical assault.
This really isn't the way to go.
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Jenn, you make a good point. Feminism has most certainly moved past Steinam, as evidenced by her recent comments about Obama. I suppose when it comes to Asian feminism, those are the names I know and am familiar with. What voices in the community would you view as being more in tune with today's realities (3rd wave?)
Well, I tried to post a couple of comments there and they were promptly deleted. Not sure why except for directly stating the articles in that section were mostly garbage. Unless that was the in the TOU, but I saw far more offensive comments there.
"What voices in the community would you view as being more in tune with today's realities (3rd wave?)"
Good question. I'm just as curious.
I posted my opinion on Asian American feminism here:
http://www.thefighting44s.com/ar...rican-feminism/
I linked both your blog and James's blog. Feel free to disagree.
Bandong's article sounds like the typical good boy/bad boy stereotype, only here, she's painted an entire race of men as the good boy. It's an incredibly stupid thing to say. She sounds like the girl who wants to go out with the sullen dangerous (ie. confused and insecure) boy on the motorcycle, as though that disrespect for her and her family is attractive. As though she can't find a man who is attractive and appealing, AND has respect for her family members.
And to paint white men as the "bad boys", seriously, that article could've been written by a white woman and her dislike of all her preppy safe (white) business executive/lawyer boyfriends.
I agree with James' assessment, it's just an infantile article written by a girl still rebelling against her family structure, and using the "otherness" of a different race to mark her own identity within her family.
Everyone, thanks for reading my blog post.
I think it's fair to oppose the notion that one can define an entire sociopolitical perspective -- Asian American feminism -- with two authors alone. Even communism gained definition outside of Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin. Maxine Hong Kingston and Amy Tan do not produce the vast majority of Asian American feminist writing - at best they provide examples of minority writing commodification by large-scale publishing houses.
Let's be clear: one of the reasons that Tan and Kingston could write best-sellers that mainstream Americans would buy revolves around the marketable Orientalist fetish mainstream Americans exude.
Likewise, I wouldn't count Anchee Min's Red Azalea as an 'Asian American' feminist text, but I can't ignore that that book revolves around a personal narrative that displays the excesses of Chinese communism towards women for mainstream American audiences eager to feel patriotic superiority over modern China.
The point? If Asian American men eager to dismiss feminism and only engage the political will of the Asian American community for their male-centered interests alone persist in characterizing all Asian American feminism as suspect because of an association with Kingston and Tan, then that very denial becomes too sexist to persuade others. Everyone knows that Kingston and Tan are as dated for Asian American women today as Sojourner Truth and Anna Julia Cooper are for Black women today.
To all Asian American men upset with Asian American feminism: when you oppose all early instances of a philosophy and ignore it's modern examples in order to decry the entire philosophy - then and now - you commit an intellectually disingenuous and dishonest act. As least read the modern examples before you toss out the bathwater. Helen Zia's a decent start, as is this blog.
As for your "pointing out inter-group racism" vibe Randy, I don't really agree. Take Ms. Bandong for example - while I found that op-ed as cerebral as a Saved by the Bell episode, it's not a problem for me because I don't consider 'chick-lit' anymore influential than your average Danielle Steel romance novel.
I'm not excusing the obvious anti-Asian male stereotyping in that piece, I'm just saying that the piece itself, while lamentable, isn't really that important. But Randy, your view that it's sensible to assert to Asian American women when you believe they are 'racist' to Asian American men comes perilously close to thought-policing, and I never agree with that.
I think Jaye's 'bad boy/good boy' metaphor for Ms. Bandong's piece encapsulates everything awry with the writing there. And Jaye, I smiled at the motorcycle image; very Happy Days of you!
Yup. I wrote that to the Editor in order to let her know that I have nothing to do with any possible death threats, or any assaults upon her life.
This way, if she DOES get attacked or killed, I have a "Get Out Of Jail" ticket. Everything's been documented very well.
Anything else that happens, I take no responsibility for.
Ed, personal attacks will be deleted.
There is a comment policy on this site. Abide by that policy or take your comments elsewhere.
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And as far as we can tell, Tony Koo has not advocated physical assault. If any such comment can be found, we will delete it.
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*deleted* And banned.
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Tony - I'm still amazed as to why the author actually wanted to pursue the FBI. If you told her the local FBI agents are Asian men I wonder she will get a heart attack?
Hey, I have NOTHING to hide. Jaymie asked me if I'd write an article. She said it'll be open. So I wrote it. then she deleted any trace of it. When I emailed her about it, she accused me of threatening her and that she contacted the FBI about me. SHE HAS NO HONOR!!!
Tony 3/23/08Jaymie,
What kind of Counter-Article are you talking about?
Please describe. I may be interested.
Jaymie3/23/08
Hello
Hi Tony, We're open, please feel free to send us an email to staff@asiancemagazine.com and we can discuss.. Looking forward to it..thanks. -jaymie
Tony 3/23/08
Open?
OK, why don't you tell me what you DON'T want to see in a counter article?
Jaymie 3/23/08
don't think this website is crap
Hi Don't think the website is crap and not planning on any housecleaning. Will however let any asian man who is willing to step up and put a name to article to most certainly publish it. When I said open, I meant we're open to any angle you would like to bring in whether it's dating asian women, being an Asian man dating and the problems dating an Asian woman, media not portraying Asian men in the proper light...whatever you think. If you want to do an opinion piece that is fine as well. DON'T want to see Asian women called whores, c*nts, sellouts, etc,, -jaymie
Tony 3/23/08
American Asian or Asian Amierican?
Jaymie, OK, if there's that much leeway,then I think I'll write something about the difference between the terms "American Asian" vs. "Asian American" and how it relates to our true identity as Americans of Asian descent or as Asians living in America. I'll start on it as soon as I can. -TK
Tony 3/23/08
Actually Jaymie, I think I'll focus my article from a more
Asian American Male's perspective. I'll keep you posted.
See for youself:
http://asiancemagazine.com/apr_2...n_women?
page=21
A little research on the site and it was in fact started by Jaymie Moran in 2004. It's been 4 years since then and the website barely got any attraction, well, until this piece surfaced.
Mrs Moran is appearing to delete any comment that isn't necessarily offensive from one poster to another, but towards the site. I'm not surprised she trashed your article if you critized the site in any way, albeit even in a reasonable and polite manner.
James, just because that article was a "chick-lit" fluff piece doesn't mean it is not representative of a certain type of mindset that is prevalent in *some* Asian women.
Sure, it is easy to laugh it off as the silly ruminations of an immature women on a 3rd-rate website. But you have to look at it from the perspective of Asian men. We're telling you one thing (of which you have doubts as to the seriousness of or the prevalance of,)and lo and behold here is this article which affirms everything we have been saying all along.
So either this piece should be taken by itself in a vacuum......or you can view is as being representative or a larger mentality.
Now, in regards to your comment on "thought-policing", I honestly find that ridiculous. You might as well say government Affirmative Action programs and anti-discrimination laws are acting as "thought-police" because it is forcing people to behave a certain way.
Nobody here is "forcing" these women to do anything. We are merely pointing out certain trends and behaviors that we feel are racist.
In a way, all Asian men are asking for is *equal consideration* and the right to not be unfairly stereotyped. Isn't that what ALL of us here want?
Hey, is anyone having trouble opening their site? Or is it just me?
re: Happy Days
Actually, I think I was unintentionally channeling James Dean. I wanted to add in 'smoking cigarettes', but thought better of it.
Here's my problem on that front Randy - Jenn writes about Asian American feminism all the time, and always from a gender inclusive perspective where neither gender has any influence or control over the other.
Jenn's feminism is not unique in this regard; it's standard among third-wave feminists, especially third-wave feminists of color who understand the truth of 'we're all in this together' racial identification.
Yet Jenn's feminism (and Asian American feminism in general) is routinely dismissed as too antagonistic toward and too dismissive of Asian male interests to matter to the general community. When Jenn's perspective is accepted as positive by some Asian men, she's seen as an eternal outlier, the exception that proves that most Asian women are sellouts who desire White men to the exclusion of everything else.
Asian men routinely come to this blog and promote these views. Why? Why is Jenn (an Asian woman who respects Asian male sexuality) seen as unique when Ms. Bandong (an Asian woman who, one can argue, does not respect Asian male sexuality) is seen as common?
Isn't it possible that the Asian men who hyperventilate over op-eds like the one from Ms. Bandong are simply not fairly observing the popularity and intensity of anti-Asian male sentiment among Asian women?
I honestly do not believe that Asian men are hypersensitive, and do not mean to suggest that. But I am concerned that stuff like Ms. Bandong's op-ed is promoted by some of its victims to proportions far past the writing's intent.
Let's face it - the real tragedy here is that people read Ms. Bandong, hate it, and then read Jenn's protests in favor of gender equality in the Asian American community as another Bandongian assault on Asian masculinity. That's the danger here.
Randy, the woman wrote chick lit, not a public policy directive.
[quote] Why? Why is Jenn (an Asian woman who respects Asian male sexuality) seen as unique when Ms. Bandong (an Asian woman who, one can argue, does not respect Asian male sexuality) is seen as common?[/quote]
Because in a white patriarchal system that tries to eliminate asian men as sexual competition (thereby making desirable asian women more easier to influence, and add to their harem of women).
As far as proof goes, I regularly encounter it where ever I go, in San Francisco, L.A, Thailand. All around the world, most asian women, even the most nice and well-intentioned of them are clueless about this issue.
There'd be no incentive and need for most asian women to be aware of in the first place if they were to stand to benefit from it; Kind of like in a hyptothetical situation where if asian men were universally desired by all females, the marginalization and plight of asian women would go largely ignored in the same way.
looks like asiance has selectively blocked out any ip's critical of their bullshit website.
James, if you want Asian men to respect the diversity of thought in Asian Feminism, perhaps you should do the same and respect the diversity of attitudes among Asian Men who are tired of being victims of racism by their own kind.
Not all of us go around calling AF's SOW's or whatever. We're not all spitting out bile and negativity. And many of us DO respect Asian feminism. I cannot speak for others, only for myself and my own conduct, so don't lump my attitudes in with others on here who may have behaved poorly.
I have no clue what a SOW is. That was part of the reason I thought Jenn's original reference was bullshit.
"don't lump my attitudes in with others on here who may have behaved poorly."
......... Ya mean like you've done with Asian American feminism?
......... Ya mean like you've done with Asian American feminism?
Are you serious, or just trolling? Not everyone you are addressing has done this, and even if they had, it wouldn't justify your own stereotyping. It'd just be you adding yourself to a stack of misguided people.
No, it is not trolling (I wrote the last comment, by the way).
But, yes -- it's completely ironic for Randy to lament being lumped in with those who have behaved egregiously when he, and Jaehwan, dimiss and marginalize the *entirety* of Asian American feminism because they disagree (rightly or wrongly) with the writings of Maxine Hong Kingston and Amy Tan.
It is completely ironic for Randy to lament being lumped in with those who behave badly when it is he who uses the example of one chick-lit writer as proof-positive that a significantly (yet conveniently undefined) "large" number of Asian American women hate their Asian American male brothers.
It is completely ironic that Randy plays the victim because he doesn't want to be generalized as the same as the extremist men who throw around terms like SOW ("Sellout Whore", used tongue-in-cheek because it is also a female pig) to refer to any Asian American woman whom they dislike.
Meanwhile, just today, I got another email from Eric, who has been harassing Asian American female activists with anti-female emails. In this one, he castigated Michelle Wie for her non-Asian boyfriend (as if *that* matters in the slightest) and topped off the email by explaining that this -- this is why he "doesn't support any Asian American female celebrity".
Am I stereotyping Randy and Jaehwan? I dunno. If I am, it's certainly because I'm failing to see how their invokation of Kingston, Tan and now this Asiance writer as the reason why me and *my* feminism hurts the Asian American community can be allowed, whereas my invokation of folks like Eric who call me a SOW (on the F44 site, although it's true that this was awhile ago) is suddenly completely uncomprehensible.
Yes, we all need to stop stereotyping. And yes, in my post, I said that included me.
But give me a reason why I should. You don't give a shit about feminism, why should I give a shit about your issues? You, Randy, and to a lesser extent Jaehwan, don't listen to any argument I've brought up, but just use my posts as a new soapbox to bring up the same, tired, anecdote-dependent bullshit. So, if you don't respect me and my views, why should I respect yours?
But give me a reason why I should. You don't give a shit about feminism, why should I give a shit about your issues? You, Randy, and to a lesser extent Jaehwan, don't listen to any argument I've brought up, but just use my posts as a new soapbox to bring up the same, tired, anecdote-dependent bullshit. So, if you don't respect me and my views, why should I respect yours?
I've spent the last four years trying to give men like yourselves a place to air out issues of the emasculation stereotype.
And for what? What have I gotten out of it?
Do you respect feminism any more than you did before you read this site? Have you learned to listen to women as much as you expect us to listen to you?
Or has my site just turned into a stomping ground for angry Asian men? Where reason gives way to ad hominem attacks and the same 'ol griping by Asian American men which a trying-to-do-right Asian American woman can never win, no matter how hard she tries?
And y'know, it's my fucking fault for looking for a way to unite with Asian American men on this issue in the first place. I can't win this argument; you guys are too hell-bent to blame *anybody* but the White men who have put you in this place in the first place. You will actually try to dismantle *feminism* -- a political view which, if Jaehwan's F44 post is to be believed, you have absolutely *no* understanding of, rather than to actually try to fight the stereotypes that are actually emasculating you.
" That was part of the reason I thought Jenn's original reference was bullshit."
Yeah, because telling men and women to stop blaming each other is *such* bullshit.
Y'know what, I have too much work to do to put up with this bullshit. I have a job to not get fired from, and two political campaigns I'm working on to get good people elected.
Y'know, shit that's not sitting at a keyboard, angry at people you will never meet in life. Shit that's actually changing the world around me.
Let me know when you guys are interested in working to find a solution, instead of turning a valid argument about emasculation stereotypes into feminist-bashing.
Wow, you know, up until now, I've been more or less ignoring these messages that have been going back and forth between you folks.
I don't know if it's because I don't understand some of the theories or if it's because your posts seem too long to read or maybe (heaven forbid) I just found the discussions to be rather dry...
In any event, there's no doubt that I've been witnessing some hot and heavy discussions concerning feminism and emasculation.
Look, it's my opinion that while this display of mental masturbation can be fun, the truth is that none of this stuff really matters. You guys have been going back and forth...but with what results?
Look, these discussions will only be valuable if there could be any positive action that comes out of it.
I'm sure that you guys have tremendous amount of intellectual power. But unfortunately, almost all of your discussions have been purely academic. I don't think that any of you have really taken any steps in actually DOING something.
Take some action. Go out, find and understand the problem. Figure it out and fix it.
-Take some action. Go out, find and -understand the problem. Figure it out -and fix it.
Are you serious? If any of you had any real insight into the nature of the problem, trying to institute any real change is completely futile. It's like cutting the top off a weed, but having it grow back within a day because you didn't bother or are completely unable to remove the root.
Because the root of the problem stems from the racial hierarchy itself. To reorganize the racial hierarchy, asian people have to dominante, displace, and subjugate white people under military, economic, social domination on a mass collective scale much in the same way white americans wiped out the indigenous native americans, and great britian conquered and colonized many different parts of the world.
Relative equality can be achieved temporarily in an imperfect way, but true equality is a myth. There is no such thing as equality, it is always a neverending power struggle.
Want to change things? Let's see if asian-americans can use their home-bought SKS rifles to shootdown U.S army Apache helicopters, tanks, planes, nukes, and take over the entire U.S government. You see that's what it will take if you want REAL change.
Good luck, Fellas.
"I'm sure that you guys have tremendous amount of intellectual power. But unfortunately, almost all of your discussions have been purely academic. I don't think that any of you have really taken any steps in actually DOING something.
Take some action. Go out, find and understand the problem. Figure it out and fix it."
Amen.
Including myself.
No no no no no...I see this waaayyy to often from people, particularly Asian Americans.
Of all the groups, it seems that Asian Americans tend to be the most politically apathetic. People just tend to give up before the fight's even started. Maybe that's why all these discussions ends as just that...discussions. Nothing ever actually gets done because no one believes that anything can change.
Well, there's no better way of insuring the status quo than to accept its permanence.
Change takes effort, but effort takes motivation. But what does motivation take?
THAT is the one billion dollar question. How do you get a group of highly educated, highly intelligent, finacially abled, highly resilient, hard working and disciplined people to move...really move???
Wasted effort...people keep on telling me about that...wasted effort...futile...impossible...never....failure...
these are words I keep on running into.
Rubbish...no one wants to try because no one wants to fail....so silly...
Do you want to know the key? You fight...you fight and you fight and you fight and you fight, and you keep on fighting until you have nothing left to fight with...then you can stop. It doesn't matter if you achieve external victory or not...you should feel pride and glory in knowing that you went as far as you could go.
THAT is the key to motivation. Victory should not be determined at the end of the war. Victory is determined day by day...moment by moment. Are you doing you best...are you doing all that you could? If not, then go do it...if so, then you're fine...you're winning each little battle within yourself. The final outcome of the war doesn't matter...it's the war....oh never mind....I don't think that any of you would understand this anyway....
OK, let's just keep it simple...the key to victory is to do all you can, day by day...no more...no less. In this way, you can achieve sucess every moment of every day. Even if in the end you fail, you can be comforted in knowing that it wasn't due to your performance. You've already done all that is in your control. You've already done all you could...at that point, the final outcome is no longer up to you.
Blah blah blah....anyway, I'd be happy if 1 out of 100 readers can understand what I'm talking about.
Tony Koo, I still don't believe that Ms. Bandong's opinion piece warrants any action, collective or otherwise. Frankly, I don't think her 'chick lit' piece matters in the slightest.
I don't think it's 'mental masturbation' to articulate why I think people should let that op-ed go. If a discussion arises because people disagree with that stance, then that discussion is reasonable.
Look, you're not going to spark the next great protest movement out of a online reaction to a dating article. Sorry. In the meantime Mr. Koo, you can articulate why you think the article was wrong on it's merits. Discussion itself isn't a bad thing.
But give me a reason why I should. You don't give a shit about feminism, why should I give a shit about your issues? You, Randy, and to a lesser extent Jaehwan, don't listen to any argument I've brought up, but just use my posts as a new soapbox to bring up the same, tired, anecdote-dependent bullshit. So, if you don't respect me and my views, why should I respect yours?
Yeah, because telling men and women to stop blaming each other is *such* bullshit.
Childish. First of all, point to one place, one single incident where I have done what you accuse me of in this post. Second of all, I know you understood my point, so why would you respond this way? You called out an entire site of hundreds of people because one of the crazies--who is also active on your site--used a term that has never been used by any of the leadership at the site. The two people from the site who engage you with respect here had never even heard the term used there--I honestly didn't know what it was. Furthermore, you replicate the same dynamic you complain about when you ignore the multi-perspective discussions on this issue that have taken place at the site.
For two years I had responded to EVERY SINGLE post by any crazy who came to the sight--sexist, racist, homophobic, whatever. We also had thoughtful heated productive discussions between those of us who are feminist and those who are more malecentric (not the same as misogynist, but sometimes in that direction.) I am able to still talk to Asian American women and men and white people without assuming that they are self-hating or sexist or aversive racists, so why can't you?
Now, I don't have time to respond to every post. I work in a segregated inner-city environment where young people don't have time for coffee shop identity debate (yes, a generalization, but a healthy analogy), and I spent a great deal of it help my young men who are immersed in hardcore misogyny understand and grow into the male feminist perspective. Don't worry--it's not the blind leading the blind--we work closely with young female leaders of color who are active on the issue.
Jaehwan and I debate on this issue all the time. He is also a youth/community organizer. I don't think any of us are that far apart on this issue.
But read your own posts. You are just as frustrated and spinning your wheels as anyone else on this thread. Your latest posts are not "third-wave" anything. They are pathological and self-justifying of what is completely self-defeating behavior.
I understand that it is because you are hurt. But when you lash back and use the "he over there did it first" justification, you are simply tearing down good people fighting on your side for your own selfish gratification. As I said before, it OOZES of privilege.
I'm not saying that I don't empathize and understand. I feel the same way as when other great folks in my community vent instead of build. I feel you, but quite frankly, I expec
I feel you, but quite frankly, I expect more.
You have a choice at this point. You could read more of the body of my work and consider my words, or you could write them off as simply condescending because of my male privilege--the same way most white males who engage me on the internet do: "You just think I'm wrong because you are racist against white people!"
I do the former for you, and for the most part am very impressed. I learn a lot from your work.
But as Jaehwan can tell you I am saying constantly, "We need to stop fighting about who is more right--We have to win!" I just wrote a piece at 44s last night about this, but I'll repeat the gist of it.
As long as we divide ourselves and play amateur debate champions and webboard warriors we're killing ourselves. We must empathetically unify on all identity fronts and stop pathologically justifying our own transgressions.
As someone I respect, I must tell you that you were wrong. Not just about the legalistic facts we were debating--that could just be a difference of opinion. More than that, you were wrong to move into an area where you were blindly attacking people who are with their whole being fighting for the feminist ideal, the anti-racist ideal, the sexual orientation equality ideal and on-and-on, and it was dead wrong. I'm pretty strong, so don't worry about me--I'm not responding because I'm hurt. I'm responding because you are hurting what we are all trying to build.
As I said before, it's never an issue whether you have a right to make poor decisions, but as someone who cares about you and our community, I have a deep responsibility to question those decisions when they are poor, whatever our gender, ethnicity, or identification in general.
If you want to read the article, it's in the homepage link.
"First of all, point to one place, one single incident where I have done what you accuse me of in this post."
I said that the APIA blogosphere is male-dominated and male-centric (sorta by default). You argued that women have access to blogging at F44 and don't, therefore there must not be any systemic suppression of sexism. You acknowledged the problem, but accused me of not offering a substantial solution.
When in the original comment to Jaehwan, I said, (in summary) are you reaching out to women? Are you addressing retention? Are you asking women why they are not posting?
Those are substantial solutions -- to improve outreach and retention, the exact same kind of substantial solution that can be offered by a non-participant seeing low numbers in any club. It is the exact same substantial solution I brought to the recruiting committee of my PhD program, and my year, we tripled both total application numbers and number of applicants of colour.
You, Xian, were not listening to what I was saying.
"Second of all, I know you understood my point, so why would you respond this way?"
Because your point is nitpicking. I wrote a post that is 4-pages long, demanding that we actually stop bickering, and that the IR debate has become a marginalized one that focuses exclusively on men and women spinning their wheels representing their points of view at one another and accusing one another of being the culprit.
As a small example of how marginalized the debate has become, how insular, and how inappropriately focused, I pointed to the fact that we're not even speaking English anymore -- that the back-and-forth of acronyms has become so exclusionary of outside perspective that I can rattle off a string of acronyms, and most people within the debate will understand what the fuck I'm saying. Which is ridiculous. Anybody outside the IR debate as it exists on board forums, would not understand the sentence I wrote.
And hey, guess what -- out of six two-letter acronyms, you understood five. Jaehwan and Randy understood all six. That proves my point. You understood what I said well enough to get offended because I supposedly typecast an entire board for the action of one crazy (when in fact, the original example said that a single AAM calls an AF in an IR a SOW on F44 -- not describing what happened to that AAM subsequently on the board).
Now, why did I react that way? 1) Because you called an entire article that I wrote bullshit because (in part) you didn't understand what SOW meant -- discarding the point that the sentence was clearly making (though I nonetheless provided clarification on the point early in this comment thread), which adds to my frustration that I can write entire pages and, rather than people disagreeing, they disagree without understanding.
And 2) I reacted this way, because I have hit my limit on anti-feminist bullshit. I'm feeling angry at how I have lost control of my blog, and have found myself ta
And 2) I reacted this way, because I have hit my limit on anti-feminist bullshit. I'm feeling angry at how I have lost control of my blog, and have found myself talking about IR on virtually every post, when this is not what I wanted. I feel like I have completely lost control of what I wanted this blog to stand for, and in that regard, I have failed as a feminist, as a blogger, and as a writer. I feel like the IR debate has taken over a site that should be about feminism and driven away all the readers I love -- and frankly, I'm tired -- so tired -- of talking about this issue because, hey, admonishment of women in IR hits pretty close to home since I am in an 8.5 year relationship with a non-Asian man and you all know this. And when you admonish women for being in IR on this site, the 800lb gorilla in the room is that you are calling into question *my* racial solidarity.
Consider this the counterpart to your emasculated Angry Asian Man rage. My feminist rage seemed to come out of nowhere? Well, that's how the Asian male rage feels to folks who aren't Asian males. Maybe that will help you understand why I'm really frustrated, and fed up.
And if I've had to deal with AM rage for as long as I have, I expect you should deal with my feminist rage without dismissively calling it "childish".
" You called out an entire site of hundreds of people because one of the crazies--who is also active on your site--used a term that has never been used by any of the leadership at the site."
It was a fucking example and it was fucking changed as soon as someone extended it as more symbolic than it was intended. Talk about pointless indignation.
And your indignation ignores the fact that the term SOW is used in the IR debate to great frequency by some folks, and frankly, I have never seen an Asian American Male go out of his way to chastise that side of the argument.
"I don't use it" is one thing, but how many of you posted against Eric on this site when he argued that I was anti-Asian American because my life partner is African American? Your silence when an extremist makes an argument *does* make you complicit in allowing the debate to extend to that level. On F44, a person who says that kind of thing is banned, but on a site with an (until recently) open comment policy, your silence makes me wonder how much Asian males "care" about those extremists amongst their ranks who employ anti-female attacks to buoy their arguments. Can you really be treating my side with respect if you allow your side to employ those kinds of attacks?
I am expected to marginalize and criticize Kingston and Tan -- and I *have* criticized both for their respective problems re: men, Orientalism. I was expected to relate Bandong's writing to feminism and chastise her, and I did so without hesitation -- she is not a feminist in my mind. But see the difference? Whereas you are able to exist in a comfortable silence where you don't have to actually rejec
I am expected to marginalize and criticize Kingston and Tan -- and I *have* criticized both for their respective problems re: men, Orientalism. I was expected to relate Bandong's writing to feminism and chastise her, and I did so without hesitation -- she is not a feminist in my mind. But see the difference? Whereas you are able to exist in a comfortable silence where you don't have to actually reject and denounce extremists amidst your ranks, my silence is unacceptable -- I can't just disapprove, I must be vocal about it. Where's that same expectation on your side? Oh, right, when I expect equal treatment and respect of the debate on both sides, I'm being "childish".
"I am able to still talk to Asian American women and men and white people without assuming that they are self-hating or sexist or aversive racists, so why can't you?"
And where did I say that I assumed all opponents are self-hating aversive racists? WTF are you talking about?
Again, you're disagreeing without understanding. This entire post is about us bickering for the sake of bickering, and focusing attention amongst ourselves, rather than against the folks actually causing the problem, because it's easier, more convenient, or because the objectiveness in the debate is no longer there because of its exclusionary tone.
Tell me where, at any point, I called all Asian American men (or or Randy's arbitrary "large number") aversive racists?
That being said, the debate *is* sexist. I didn't say the people were sexist -- that can be a different argument about whether a debate can be sexist and the people just be unwitting. The debate is very sexist for the way it expects a double standard to exist for men and women, where it places the onus for change exclusively on women, and where it allows misogynistic attacks against women to persist.
Am I saying you're sexist? No. I don't know you. But every time I have engaged the debate, whether from Jaehwan and Randy who have been respectful in their tone, if like a brick wall in their willingness to see another side of the argument, or yourself, who has been flexible if rather condescending in almost everything you write, or if I'm speaking to outright misogynists like Eric, sexism is inherent not to who you are, but the position you are advocating.
The emasculation debate postulates that men are being portrayed as less masculine. However, the IR debate extension of that issue is that AF who outmarry are to blame -- which is to say that AF's have a responsibility for AM's sociopolitical issues, that allows AM to decide the AF's membership within the race based on how their actions *affect* men. This removes control of AF's own racial identity out of their own hands, and the postulation of AF's as "the enemy" *is* sexist. And it is a completely unaddressed sexism within the debate -- sadly, every time I have engaged in the debate, this point is always lost or glossed over by men, who essentially r
sadly, every time I have engaged in the debate, this point is always lost or glossed over by men, who essentially read the charge and go back to arguing about the latest AF/WM pairing they saw on the sidewalk. Or call me anti-Asian American for wanting to talk about sexism in our community.
"But read your own posts. You are just as frustrated and spinning your wheels as anyone else on this thread. Your latest posts are not "third-wave" anything. They are pathological and self-justifying of what is completely self-defeating behavior."
With all due respect, fuck you.
This post was entirely "third-wave" -it advocated an end to gender divide and acknowledged pain and responsibility on both sides to end the debate. Read any published feminist of colour -- what I wrote is the core tenet of third-wave feminism. With all due respect, who are you to tell me what feminism is and isn't?
And how is it self-defeating for me, and not self-defeating when Randy says that Bandong's perspectives typify what a "large number" of AF's think? Or self-defeating when Jaehwan can try to dismantle the entirety of APIA feminism as the cruz of the IR debate, which essentially expells all APIA feminists from the debate *and* the community?
My comment, on the other hand, was angry, and perhaps self-justifying --but hardly "pathological". But you had just called my entire post bullshit for no good reason, especially when, hey -- it *is* hilariously ironic for Randy to resent being cast in the same boat with Eric when Jaehwan wrote a fucking post trying to sink all of APIA feminism because of the writing of Maxine Hong Kingston and Amy Tan.
And if AM have the right to express their rage, and I have to put up with it --- then why is it that when I express my rage, you call me "pathological" and "self-defeating"?
Double standard much.
"I understand that it is because you are hurt. But when you lash back and use the "he over there did it first" justification, you are simply tearing down good people fighting on your side for your own selfish gratification. As I said before, it OOZES of privilege."
First of all, we are all privileged. If you have the time to be on this blog tearing what I have to say apart, you are privileged. We are all privileged that we can even fucking access the internet and have the time to talk, and I'm sorry -- if the single worst issue that AM face is the IR/emasculation issue (which is how it was characterized somewhere up there) than ... yeeeesh, talk about privilege.
Yes, I'm hurt. Because this debate hit personal a long time ago. Imagine if everyone called your White wife a fetishist every time you logged onto Fighting 44's. Imagine if everyone negated your life's work as an organizer because you married a non-Asian woman every time you try to respond with respect and decency to the crazies on F44. Imagine if every time you identified as an Asian American race activist, people told you that Asian A
Imagine if everyone negated your life's work as an organizer because you married a non-Asian woman every time you try to respond with respect and decency to the crazies on F44. Imagine if every time you identified as an Asian American race activist, people told you that Asian Americans shouldn't be proud of who they are because Seung-Hui Cho shot up Virginia Tech. And imagine that everyday, there is a slow whittling down of your pride in the community -- and your willingness to be reasonable and respectful -- because Asian American women would come to you and call you the enemy for earning roughly equal the dollar every White man earns while we still earn only $0.75 to the dollar, expecting you to quit your jobs in order to make way for AF applicants, as you quietly sat around trying to argue. And because you are being respectful, no one is listening.
That is what it is like with me.
And I *pay* for this site with money I don't have because I am a graduate student.
Yes, I'm hurt, I'm offended, I'm angry, and I hit rant-mode. But did you really expect that there isn't a feminist rage out there that corresponds to the AM rage over this issue? Is that really a surprise to you?
I get the exact same kind of "you did it first" disrespect from the Asian American men who come to this site, citing Kingston and Tan as reason why AM shouldn't respect AF anymore. According to other comments on this blog that have been posted for years, AF's apparently deserve the direspect we get because of "Joy Luck Club". And I have been "the better person" for four years.
And all I've gotten for it is a bunch of guys who try to walk all over me, who take every opportunity on this blog to talk about the same IR arguments, when I've debunked them months ago. I mean, I had a long debate with Randy on this blog about use of anecdotes. I said they should stop being used on your side of the debate because they are not statistically relevant and represent a huge vulnerability in the argument -- and hey, he's still using anecdotal evidence to generalize a "large number" of Asian American women.
After four years, the philosophy of "being the better person" and "treating as you'd like to be treated" still nets me the opportunity to be called a sellout for not falling in line with male-centric Asian American thought.
When I lash out, it's not rational, but it's real. If Jaehwan can insult my entire political philosophy with an intellectually dishonest invokation and admonishment of Tan's writing (as if feminism is nothing more than a cultish fervour born out of "Joy Luck Club"... the movie...), and I'm expected to respect and understand and agree with everything that he says about AM emasculation (ignoring the irrationality, sexism and anger of his argument) -- why are you surprised that I'm frustrated and hurt and angry.
I have been hitting my head against this brick wall for four years. And I have *nothing* to show for it.
I have been hitting my head against this brick wall for four years. And I have *nothing* to show for it. I am no more being heard today than I was when I *was* being called a SOW on F44, back before it was as heavily moderated as it is now.
"You have a choice at this point. You could read more of the body of my work and consider my words, or you could write them off as simply condescending because of my male privilege--the same way most white males who engage me on the internet do: "You just think I'm wrong because you are racist against white people!" "
I will read more of your work. Frankly, I don't know where you blog. My only interaction with what you think is here on this blog.
I don't think you condescend because you are sexist or basking in your male privilege. I think you condescend because you condescend to people you disagree with -- your writing reads as if you think you are better than your opponents. Comments like "childish" and "bullshit" exacerbate the situation and engender the kind of response you got -- you didn't disagree with me, you called me foolish and unworthy of a respectful disagreement.
So yeah, I lashed out at you. I apologize for being irrational but not for expressing my rage.
"As long as we divide ourselves and play amateur debate champions and webboard warriors we're killing ourselves. We must empathetically unify on all identity fronts and stop pathologically justifying our own transgressions."
Re-read my post. I wrote:
"I think that if our community is to grow, we must end this bickering between the genders."
" both Asian American men and Asian American women are guilty of relying on stereotypes in furthering the gender war over racial solidarity and ending gender-based discrimination. We need to stop pointing the finger at one another and discuss the issues of sexism, racism, and bigotry that permeate the formulation of Asian American-specific gender identity and threaten our entire community.
Asian American feminism has always underscored a need for both genders to be heard, to be equal, and ultimately to be united in the common goal of ending gender-based discrimination. Bandong’s words, sadly, mar that goal. But, so too, do some of Bandong’s detractors, who have argued that Bandong’s words “typify” the Asian American female experience, applying the same logic that they condemn from Bandong to attack the Asian American female community.
Only by forming a united coalition of genders within the Asian American community do we have a hope of combating interracial and intraracial sexism, stereotyping, and legal disenfranchisement that victimizes both sexes in different — yet related — ways. We cannot see those similarities now, because we are too hell-bent on tearing each other apart instead of focusing on a tenable, workable solution. We seek vengeance when we could all use a little diplomacy and compromise. If only we would stop and listen to one another — and give
give a little and take a little on both sides. "
I wrote that because I am recognizing the stereotyping in myself. I'm fighting those generalizations and losing.
I know I'm engaging in the same self-defeating behaviour. And I really have no incentive to stop, no matter how hard I want to. I want to see that AM are hearing me -- and they're not. I know how we need to get through this debate and unite, but I feel like I'm the only person who has tried for years to stop the generalizations -- and only get even-strengthened stereotyping against me and my ideology to show for it.
If you recognize the self-defeating behaviours on all sides, are you encouraging the AM to "be the better person" as much as you're telling me to?
"Not just about the legalistic facts we were debating--that could just be a difference of opinion. More than that, you were wrong to move into an area where you were blindly attacking people who are with their whole being fighting for the feminist ideal, the anti-racist ideal, the sexual orientation equality ideal and on-and-on, and it was dead wrong. I'm pretty strong, so don't worry about me--I'm not responding because I'm hurt. I'm responding because you are hurting what we are all trying to build."
... uhhh... what legalistic facts?
And btw, you discount the fact that I have been an activist and off-time organizer for years as well, although I've dedicated most of my life to that whimsical goal of curing cancer and cardiovascular disease. And in my spare time, I've got my thumbs in a number of community-oriented pies that I don't usually discuss here.
And I consider this blog a form of activism. It was -- to my knowledge -- the *first* APIA feminist blog on the web, and the second exclusively political APIA blog: I know this because prior to launching it, I ran Google searches for months to pull up blogs other than Angry Asian Man and found none.
Your page could not be found, Xian.
Re-reading your post, I'm *assuming* that your admonishment extends from the belief that what I wrote was criticizing all of F44 as a misogynist sinkhole of anti-feminist thought. I never said that, nor do I think that -- but that is different from arguing that it is male-centric.
If you or F44 took offense that my example included an AM calling an AF a SOW on F44, I apologize -- my intention was to demonstrate the alphabet soup of acronyms being used in the debate as an example of how it has become insularized, but it was probably undiplomatic of me. It has since been corrected.
From James: "Look, you're not going to spark the next great protest movement out of a online reaction to a dating article. Sorry. In the meantime Mr. Koo, you can articulate why you think the article was wrong on it's merits. Discussion itself isn't a bad thing."
See, you've just proven my point. "you're not going to spark the next great protest movement out of a online reaction to a dating article."
In other words, "don't try because it's pointless and useless".
I really don't see any good reason why I'd want to keep on arguing as to why I think it's wrong. I ALREADY KNOW it's wrong...then, I decided to act. And yes, there were a substantial number of people involved. Otherwise, we wouldn't have gotten the reaction that we did from their site.
Look, it seems like you guys would rather sit in your classrooms all day long and just talk for hours, days, months and years at a time and thereby getting nowhere, or you can get up and actually do something.
Or maybe it's because you're afraid or unable to actually act. But still, the fact is that all this discussion has not resulted in any fruition of any kind, other than frustration.
You guys are arguing on really unimportant things, just for the sake of arguing.
There's a time to talk and a time to act. I think that you guys are stuck at the former and trying to avoid the latter.
Go out there and actually DO something. That's where the rubber meets the road. THAT's how change really begins. You have to MOVE, MOVE, MOVE rather than talk, talk, talk.
Wow, looks like there's a lot of frustration and rage concerning this topic.
Oh, and just FYI, I didn't know what SOW meant until just two days ago. I tried getting a definition online, but I could find it.
OK, I've been to several different AA forums now, and I'd have to say that the number of Asians (mostly male) who constantly use the term "sellout, cracker, SOW, bitch" is amazing. If it was my site, I'd delete any post that has any of those words.
But in the end, it's all about what you really want this website to be.
If it was my site, I'd use it as a place for people to come together to learn, teach, and discuss current issues and topics that can be used for coordinating action, receiving support, and sharing experiences and ideas.
Whether or not you want to allow this type of negative and damaging behavior is entirely up to you. Frankly, if it was up to me, I wouldn't allow it. These types of statements drive away others who you may be trying to reach.
If you're really want this website to be about asian female empowerment, I think that you should be less tolerant against those who wish to oppose you in the goal.
I think that it's great that you want to allow free discussion, but really, you need to set the pace here. Give people warnings...maybe have a three strike rule...but once they decide to cross the line, just get rid of them.
I think that in this way, not only will you attract more of your target audience (women), but you'll also be able to protect them from angry and bitter Asian male misogynists.
Jenn, you should have to take this kind of crap from others. You run the show here. You're the sheriff.
"Well, there's no better way of insuring the status quo than to accept its permanence."
True, and in my previous post, I highlighted that change is possible on a relative level. Like yelling at the top of your lungs, when a white male does something very grievous.
A.) " THAT'S RACIST MOTHERFUCKER!"
B.) " HEY STOP STEALING OUR WOMEN!"
C.) " HEY STOP STEALING OUR GAY ASIAN MEN!"
D.) " HEY STOP MOLESTING MY DOG! "
Okay shit like that does stop them in their tracks once in a while, but that's pretty much what AA activism amounts to; a whole lot of yelling to shame white people into concession.
It's like begging for table scraps on the dinner table. Ultimately it's the white patriarchy that is calling the shots. ex: Hillary mentioning; Lyndon Johnson signing the civil rights act of 1964.
"When I lash out, it's not rational, but it's real. If Jaehwan can insult my entire political philosophy with an intellectually dishonest invokation and admonishment of Tan's writing (as if feminism is nothing more than a cultish fervour born out of "Joy Luck Club"... the movie...), and I'm expected to respect and understand and agree with everything that he says about AM emasculation (ignoring the irrationality, sexism and anger of his argument) -- why are you surprised that I'm frustrated and hurt and angry."
I don't know if posting anything about this right now is going to change anything. But let me just say a few things in Xian's defense, and a few things in my own:
1. Xian's other writings are available on the 44's. You can check his blog entries, or you can search for him in the message forum. He has always been very fair to everyone, even people he disagrees with. He teaches in an inner-city school, and so he's very familiar with race relations.
It seems to me that he's asking you questions and not getting answers. I feel the same way.
2. I always enter a debate with the attitude that I could be wrong. If you can prove something to me, I'll admit I'm wrong. Some of the veteran 44's, such as D, xian, maogirl, nightshade, and others, have in the past convinced me to change my mind on issues. I haven't felt like anything on the feminist issue has proven me even slightly wrong. I ask questions, and then you just vent rage. I point out the fact (as many in academia feel) that Kingston was the pioneer in Asian American feminism, and rather than pointing out how I'm right or wrong, you just give me pure rage.
Personally, Jenn, I wonder why you cling so hard to the feminist label. I called the entire philosophy into question because I don't see the value, and I see how proponents have attacked us. I made the argument using facts. Xian actually agreed more with you than me, and on the 44's, he respectfully laid out why he believes that feminism is a social justice ideology rather than just a movement. I accepted his position as valid because it makes sense. We could argue over the words--and maybe it may someday make sense to do so--but the general gist of his message is that we have to work together. I agree wholeheartedly.
What doesn't make sense to me is that you cling so hard to the feminist label and refuse to try to explain it to people who have valid problems with it. If you're wrong, you should admit that you're wrong. If I'm wrong, show me why you think I'm wrong. Otherwise, why would any of us ever debate anything? Isn't that what being open-minded is about? If it's above debate or reproach, it's a religion, not a philosophy.
If you were to question my Asian American activism, I'd be the first to point out that it has had some flaws. But I'd also show you how we've done great things. I could cite several examples from history that would sho
that would show the birth of a strong movement. I haven't seen anyone try to present a historical defense of Asian American feminism, which is why this venom really surprises me.
3. For the record, I don't remember ever asking you to do anything about Asiance Magazine or Asian American male issues with your site. I just asked you to listen to Asian men and try to understand the male perspective. In fact, someone once asked me whether Jenn should support "Falling for Grace" with your reappropriate, and I said Jenn should do whatever she feels is right because it's her personal site.
That was actually more of a suggestion than anything else. Of course, you don't have to listen to us; we're all big boys and understand that not everyone wants to hear our side. I was just trying to propose a different way to achieve things by working together.
No, you don't understand. If you look at Blacks, Hispanics and Jews, you'll see that none of them have had to take up arms in order to get respect fair treatment.
We must try to appeal to peoploe's sense of what's right and wrong. Asking for respect and fair treatment is admirable. It's something that everyone can understand and sympathize with.
Making death threats, assaulting, and taking up arms against the offenders will shatter any kind of sympathy that we garner. At that point, we'd be considered terrorists, and that point, the US government will have no qualmns about crushing us.
Using non violent means to effect change isn't about being soft or weak...it's about being pragmatic.
I said that the APIA blogosphere is male-dominated and male-centric (sorta by default). You argued that women have access to blogging at F44 and don't, therefore there must not be any systemic suppression of sexism. You acknowledged the problem, but accused me of not offering a substantial solution.
No. I said that and then concluded pretty close to what you concluded--certainly despite efforts to include and promote feminist voices, it has not succeeded and that is because good intentions do not negate mainstream prejudices and inequities. I compared it to white liberal organizations good intentions but inability to recruit minority members. And yes, I do talk directly to other members who represent the feminist standpoint.
Which happens to exactly mirror your own experience and your suggested solutions. So why are you being abrasive to me and then saying, "People are mean and close-minded to me, so I can do that to you too!" What are you accomplishing?
You are right. I agreed with you. You got nasty.
Now, why did I react that way? 1) Because you called an entire article that I wrote bullshit because (in part) you didn't understand what SOW meant -- discarding the point that the sentence was clearly making (though I nonetheless provided clarification on the point early in this comment thread), which adds to my frustration that I can write entire pages and, rather than people disagreeing, they disagree without understanding.
No, I called your original reference to the F44s "bullshit" because it was bullshit. This "five out of six" crap doesn't change the fact that you chose to attack a website that has connected a large number of social justice oriented leaders amidst some other "bullshit", and plenty of us are sick of being a target for white perspective websites and more mainstream Asian American websites. But hey, understanding goes both ways, and I probably should have been more specific and less crass. I'm sorry.
Jeez, I really don't understand what this whole back and forth is all about. To me, the answer seems so simple.
It doesn't matter what you label yourself. The bottom line is that whoever you are, whoever WE are, what we all want is
to be respected,
valued,
appreciated,
noticed,
validated,
acknlowedged,
understood,
and empathized with.
You could be a feminist, an AA activist, a bitter AM, an African American male/female, a Latino, the average white guy, the average white woman...it doesn't matter. All that any of us really wants are the items I memtioned above.
Even this argument that you guys have been having for...it seems like weeks now has to do with the above. All of you want to be acknowledged and appreciated for your points of view. You want to be understood and validated as human beings. That's why you're arguing so much. You feel like neither side is understanding or validating your ideas/philosophies of life.
Can we just agree to do that? Can we just agree that even though we may not agree with each other, can we still agree that we understand, appreciate, and acknowledge one another's ideas which then correlates to our understanding, appreciating and acknowleding one another as people as well?
Look, we all want these same things. Otherwise, none of us would be doing this in the first place.
I'll try to break it up here so it doesn't get chopped.
As to the original point of the alphabet soup, I will just stop and agree with you. It's frustrating to see you fling them at me, but I'm really not interested in fighting on it--I have spent a great deal of my time fighting the worst of the acronyms and have not used them or returned them a single time. I think it is disingenuous of you to link terms like AF and AA with terms like SOW or whatever, and especially lumping in F44s with the most sexist of terms was horribly irresponsible, but you apologized sincerely for that, and that's really more than enough.
And 2) I reacted this way, because I have hit my limit on anti-feminist bullshit. I'm feeling angry at how I have lost control of my blog, and have found myself talking about IR on virtually every post, when this is not what I wanted.
I'm sorry to hear that. I'm not really specifically interested in discussing the merits of IRs at all. I feel like I've worked that out pretty good and feel very secure in my own life and ability to counsel others. When engaged, I will respond honestly. As we basically agreed on earlier, I can see the problems of dysfunctional IRs in promoting racism and damaging those within them, and I can see the beauty of any positive honest relationship.
I only focus on the great responsibility necessary for such relationships to be successful because I am very familiar with how to build a long-term successful, social justice oriented IR relationship.
I feel like I have completely lost control of what I wanted this blog to stand for, and in that regard, I have failed as a feminist, as a blogger, and as a writer. I feel like the IR debate has taken over a site that should be about feminism and driven away all the readers I love -- and frankly, I'm tired -- so tired -- of talking about this issue because, hey, admonishment of women in IR hits pretty close to home since I am in an 8.5 year relationship with a non-Asian man and you all know this.
Once again, I'm sorry, but certainly I know the feeling of being exhausted on this and every level.
And when you admonish women for being in IR on this site, the 800lb gorilla in the room is that you are calling into question *my* racial solidarity.
Yes and I have not and would never do such a thing.
Consider this the counterpart to your emasculated Angry Asian Man rage. My feminist rage seemed to come out of nowhere? Well, that's how the Asian male rage feels to folks who aren't Asian males. Maybe that will help you understand why I'm really frustrated, and fed up.
And I do understand and I am infamous for having patience and love and empathy, but not much acceptance of Angry Asian male rage. I'm constantly called a sellout or worse ("captain save a hoe" comes to mind) for saying that it's time to stop feeling sorry for ourselves and embrace justice which includes a true feminist agenda. I mean
I mean, I'm constantly, righteously angry, but in terms of Angry Asian Male rage as you are trying to stereotype it, Jae and I make Phil Yu look like Louis Farrakhan.
And if I've had to deal with AM rage for as long as I have, I expect you should deal with my feminist rage without dismissively calling it "childish".
Sorry, that's an excuse. I love your feminism. And I love your righteous feminist rage. But when you are flaying and attacking blindly because someone else had done the same, I'm going to call that out the same way I do towards misguided AA male rage. I probably just won't call you a misogynist.
And your indignation ignores the fact that the term SOW is used in the IR debate to great frequency by some folks, and frankly, I have never seen an Asian American Male go out of his way to chastise that side of the argument.
Then you are the guy I have called out a thousand times for saying, "I haven't seen any Asian American sisters ready to stand with us, so they must not exist!" I admit, I've never called anyone out for using "SOW". BECAUSE I'VE NEVER HEARD THE TERM BEFORE. But I've called out people for using CCB or whatever other sexist poison was being spewed on every opportunity. Of course, I hardly just do that in the Asian American community. I have to pull high school boys off of their female counterparts most of my waking hours and try to teach them that "being a man" is not worthwhile if it means that you have to assault people on a daily basis and rather than being a mature, actualized human being means letting other people choose you because you are empathetically awesome.
If you honestly believe that no Asian American men are fighting this battle along side of you, I can understand why you are tired. No individual identity group can make it exclusive on our own.
Imagine if everyone negated your life's work as an organizer because you married a non-Asian woman every time you try to respond with respect and decency to the crazies on F44. Imagine if every time you identified as an Asian American race activist, people told you that Asian Americans shouldn't be proud of who they are because Seung-Hui Cho shot up Virginia Tech. And imagine that everyday, there is a slow whittling down of your pride in the community -- and your willingness to be reasonable and respectful -- because Asian American women would come to you and call you the enemy for earning roughly equal the dollar every White man earns while we still earn only $0.75 to the dollar, expecting you to quit your jobs in order to make way for AF applicants, as you quietly sat around trying to argue. And because you are being respectful, no one is listening.
Why do you assume that I don't experience what you've listed above? I don't need to imagine, 1 I experience, 2 I experience plus, "hapas are not to be trusted in the movement because they are sellouts--ESPECIALLY if your mother is AF". 3 I don't experience although there certainly is the attack on AMs as a gender/racial identity. I just have been through enough to force self-definition that I experience it constantly, but it pumps me up rather than wearing me down. So I am not only listening, I am relating.
You are listening too. I know this.
Yes, I'm hurt, I'm offended, I'm angry, and I hit rant-mode. But did you really expect that there isn't a feminist rage out there that corresponds to the AM rage over this issue? Is that really a surprise to you?
No, it's not a surprise to me at all, but I'll respond the same way to you as I do to the AM rageaholics and my kids when they respond to the fact that they are in a segregated, hellhole of a school with unfocused rage. I understand. But I expect more. Not because I want to be harsh but BECAUSE we have to win, and while focused rage moves mountains, unfocused rage just destroys what little we have built.
I get the exact same kind of "you did it first" disrespect from the Asian American men who come to this site, citing Kingston and Tan as reason why AM shouldn't respect AF anymore. According to other comments on this blog that have been posted for years, AF's apparently deserve the direspect we get because of "Joy Luck Club". And I have been "the better person" for four years.
Well, you will need to do so for at least another 40 years.
And all I've gotten for it is a bunch of guys who try to walk all over me, who take every opportunity on this blog to talk about the same IR arguments, when I've debunked them months ago. I mean, I had a long debate with Randy on this blog about use of anecdotes. I said they should stop being used on your side of the debate because they are not statistically relevant and represent a huge vulnerability in the argument -- and hey, he's still using anecdotal evidence to generalize a "large number" of Asian American women.
And he's wrong.
After four years, the philosophy of "being the better person" and "treating as you'd like to be treated" still nets me the opportunity to be called a sellout for not falling in line with male-centric Asian American thought.
And that's wrong, but it's not different from anything the rest of us our experiencing. Yes, I'm a male, with some portion of the giant thing that is male privilege. But you also haven't experienced everything I have either. What is in common is what I always tell my kids, "The better you treat others, the more unfairly you will be treated, but the same time, the better you will be treated. Isn't it weird?"
When I lash out, it's not rational, but it's real. If Jaehwan can insult my entire political philosophy with an intellectually dishonest invokation and admonishment of Tan's writing (as if feminism is nothing more than a cultish fervour born out of "Joy Luck Club"... the movie...), and I'm expected to respect and understand and agree with everything that he says about AM emasculation (ignoring the irrationality, sexism and anger of his argument) -- why are you surprised that I'm frustrated and hurt and angry.
I'm not surprised. I'm also frustrated.
I have been hitting my head against this brick wall for four years. And I have *nothing* to show for it.
Then this is where we start. This has to be a lifestyle you find joy in. I work 80-100+ hours every single week fighting for social justice while putting up with the bureaucratic crap of being a school teacher in the NCLB era. If you are banging your head against a brick wall, and it hurts, it's time to stop feeling and acting and start strategizing.
The strategy is where the fun is. the strategy is what allows me to bury one of my students and walk away feeling like tomorrow will be a better day and she/he didn't die in vain. The strategy is what allows you to feel the society improving markedly through your individual effort and love.
I don't think you condescend because you are sexist or basking in your male privilege. I think you condescend because you condescend to people you disagree with -- your writing reads as if you think you are better than your opponents. Comments like "childish" and "bullshit" exacerbate the situation and engender the kind of response you got -- you didn't disagree with me, you called me foolish and unworthy of a respectful disagreement.
You are right and wrong. I can be quite crass and I should be more careful. However, some times direct harsh language is necessary as well, and you are conflating a judgment of action (action which you have agreed with me was foolish) with a judgment of your character. I could be wrong (always), but I would be surprised if you could find a single instance of me insulting you directly. I have a high opinion of you. One of my problems is that I probably don't say it enough.
So yeah, I lashed out at you. I apologize for being irrational but not for expressing my rage.
I understand both your rage and your momentarily lack of rationality. I accept your apologies and remind you that relative to others in our community you are extremely well-grounded in thoughtfulness, and it's still not enough.
I wrote that because I am recognizing the stereotyping in myself. I'm fighting those generalizations and losing.
I know I'm engaging in the same self-defeating behaviour. And I really have no incentive to stop, no matter how hard I want to. I want to see that AM are hearing me -- and they're not. I know how we need to get through this debate and unite, but I feel like I'm the only person who has tried for years to stop the generalizations -- and only get even-strengthened stereotyping against me and my ideology to show for it.
I clipped your great words from your article as they stand on their own.
But this part brings me to tears. You know that the only option is to win, so you know what is at stake and that the "incentive" is the greatest thing that humankind could ever hope for.
If you feel that alone, it hurts me. I think that's why some of us at 44s who are most social justice oriented tend to unplug once in awhile and just talk on the phone and stuff.
There is so much positive to be done, I'm not telling you to "stop spinning your wheels" to lower you or insult you, but because it sounds like you agree with me that that is what you are doing, and it's time to strategize and figure out how to feel better about what you are doing--the most important battle imaginable.
If you recognize the self-defeating behaviours on all sides, are you encouraging the AM to "be the better person" as much as you're telling me to?
Absolutely yes. For those that are listening at all, at least as much. I promise. I just called out Jaehwan yesterday and I know he would do the same for me. For those who are not listening, I'll level them once for the benefit of those around, and then see where it goes from there.
And btw, you discount the fact that I have been an activist and off-time organizer for years as well, although I've dedicated most of my life to that whimsical goal of curing cancer and cardiovascular disease. And in my spare time, I've got my thumbs in a number of community-oriented pies that I don't usually discuss here.
I certainly wasn't trying to discount anything. I am proud of who I am, what I do and enjoying it immensely. I am not assuming that's any better than what many others are doing. What I am confused about is why you don't talk about those things more. Part of how any social justice activists get unjustly marginalized is when we are pigeon-holed. This is why many folks identified as feminists are assumed to be doing nothing about racist or classism. Obviously this is false, but we can easily fight it by sharing a three-dimensional view of ourselves.
And I consider this blog a form of activism. It was -- to my knowledge -- the *first* APIA feminist blog on the web, and the second exclusively political APIA blog: I know this because prior to launching it, I ran Google searches for months to pull up blogs other than Angry Asian Man and found none.
Your page could not be found, Xian.
I also blogged for awhile. I admire your consistency. 24/7 teaching finally destroyed mine. You can still the sorry remnants of it at yellowcontent.blogspot.com. It's horribly uneven--some beautiful stuff and a lot of schlock and these days when I write, it's usually shared with student by-lines offline.
Re-reading your post, I'm *assuming* that your admonishment extends from the belief that what I wrote was criticizing all of F44 as a misogynist sinkhole of anti-feminist thought. I never said that, nor do I think that -- but that is different from arguing that it is male-centric.
If you or F44 took offense that my example included an AM calling an AF a SOW on F44, I apologize -- my intention was to demonstrate the alphabet soup of acronyms being used in the debate as an example of how it has become insularized, but it was probably undiplomatic of me. It has since been corrected.
More than fair enough. I'm sorry that I probably poured gasoline on this fire, especially when I have enjoyed our interactions greatly. I'm sorry if you have not. That's rather selfish of me. But I do think that this exchange has proven quite fruitful.
I hope that you will consider the vision of a diverse Asian American strategic coalition. As an online community, we have become quite powerful thanks in large part to you and Phil Yu and many others.
However, we still tend to be more reactive than proactive which may help when were are under direct attack, but it does nothing to address the reasons that we are under attack so often.
We can continue to defend against sexist/racist bullshit or we could develop strategies to pro-actively address the root causes of these dynamics...
I've looked at this whole conflict on here- I actually have read Asiance and think it's a great publication. A lot of websites that are forerunners for special interest and for minority groups might have "offensive" articles to some, but this is almost natural on the web and especially on a sex column! The sex column is one part of the site that I read for entertainment and fun, and no I am not an Asian man. But I have a lot of Asian buddies and they pretty much all agree it is for the interest of the female audience both male and female...especially the articles in the sex column. When she wrote those things and this guy Tony complained it's obvious that he's an angry Asian male- not that there's anything wrong that obviously- but people can't really take his harsh threats and anger against the founder of the magazine seriously..becuse he's responding to this sex column out of personal vendetta! Anyways, that's what I think of the situation. It's a pretty good site from what I've seen...
You know...this reminds me of when I was taking a course, "The Socilology of Racism". Needless to say, there were A LOT of minorities enrolled. But there were some whites as well...maybe about 15%.
Man...I felt SOOOO bad for those white guys and girls. Mostly blacks would just go off on them.
"All whites are racists!"
one black girl said. Even the professor (a black guy) kept on making references about how EVIL white people have been and still are.
And what could the whites possibly say? If they defended themselves, they would receive even MORE attacks from their classmates. The only had two options.
1)They either shut up or
2)They try to side with the blacks and agree as to how evil whites are...
If I was stronger...if I could go back to that class now, I would have defended them. If any white person is taking a class about the Sociology of Racism, you know that they're not the bad guys. Why would a real racist possibly enroll in a class like that?
Well...everything seemed more or less quiet...until the very last day of class. On that day, during the entire two hour period, the whites started to speak...and they were PISSED, and they had every right to be.
"I'm sick and tired of being called a racist for something I never even did"
It wasn't right what those whites had to put up with. They were the good guys. They were on our side, and yet, they became the scapegoats for every white injustice that the minorities have experienced.
Yeah, if I could do it all over again, I would check those comments of the minority students against the whites...but I was weak at the time, so I said nothing.
And now, I see something similar.
I see three of you-Randy, James and Xian all ganging up one Jenn. I see three men ganging up on Jenn who's basically expressing all her pent up frustration and anger at being lumped together with "the enemy".
She's not one of "the enemy". She's one of us. Don't focus all your rage and anger at her, just because it's convenient to do so, and because she's trying to be nice and respectful with you. No, I don't think she should be so nice and respectful...at least not all the time. She has her limits, just like us all. She doesn't need to apologize for venting her rage. She doesn't need to apologize for not being 100% rational. She has a right to feel and express whatever she feels like. ESPECIALLY on her own website.
Boy, this is HER house and all of us are her guests. And just because she doesn't want to be seen as a "bitch" doesn't give you the right to attack her.
Back off boys. Show her some more respect.
I appreciate you taking the role of peacemaker.
But I thought giving respect was what I was doing. I have no rage, or see any enemies within the group you are discussing.
I assume that we are all here for the same reason--to improve and grow stronger for the present and future battle.
And I don't agree with your analogy because in the same way that we as males are responsible for understanding and combating gender privilege, whites ARE responsible for understanding and combating their privilege. It may not be their individual fault, but it is every individual's responsibility to address inequities in the society.
Peter,
I think it's always funny when a white guy tells an asian guy not to be so sensitive about racism.
Look, the only reason I expressed my dissaproval of that article was because the author used blanked statements like
"All asian men are like puppy dogs"
See, when you use the word ALL, you've just managed to include everyone from the rice farmer in Vietnam to the Japanese American executive working in New York.
As you already know Peter, I'm not a Puppy dog. I'm not always so predictable and boring.
Am I angry? Maybe. Do I have a vendetta? I'm not sure. But I'll tell you this. Whenever someone decides to lump me into a group using an adjectives to describe who I'm not, it annoys me.
Also, the sheer fact is that Asian American men already have a diffcult time being preceived as "masculine". We really don't need a fellow Asian American woman to to oppose that.
Anyway, just look at my post right above this one. Pay special attention as to what I said about white people being lumped together with racists.
Maybe that'll help to show you my point.
Incidentally, I had a similar experience, with a very different perspective. I found that a lot of the whites in such classes where aversive racists who were honestly trying their best, but also carrying a lot of institutional baggage (aren't we all).
To illustrate, I had the following experience:
I was in an Asian American political science class. Since there was little in the way of Asian American studies at the time, most of the specialized classes in the field began with a brief intro to Asian American history. I noticed that the class was divided between the Asian Americans and the whites--the couple African Americans and Latina/o Americans were sprinkled through the Asian American section.
The whites would often come late or right at the bell. I'm not generalizing that--it was probably just those individuals, but it was the case.
For the first few classes, they would sit by me. I think they saw me as the "next safest thing". They would ask me a ton of questions about "What are you?" and "How DID they meet?" and other such racist crap.
Ironically, they probably would have been better off sitting in certain parts of the Asian American section--some of us were actually pretty well to do and while exploring on the ethnic issues, we pretty social conservative and upper-class. Needless to say, the whites were horrified once the discussion got going, as I was FAR more separatist and aggressive at that point.
Most stopped coming. Some moved away. But to be fair, it was college. A lot of us were still just exploring and by no means grandmasters of racial ideologies. The problem lies in that ethnic majority folk, even those who mean well, often do not adjust well to even a tiny space where their privilege is absent.
xian, what are you? I thought you were asian.
Hm...something interesting just popped up in my head.
Does the AA community really expect non-Asians to change their perceptions about us? If that's the case, then I think that we're going about this all wrong.
WE need to take control of who we are and what we do. We can't always complain and just wait for others to change for us.
WE need to strengthen ourselves.
WE need to work together and speak as one.
WE need to overcome our own political apathy.
WE need to project ourselves from a position of strength.
WE need to fight the good fights.
Ultimately, WE need to take control of our own Empowerment. It's not something that we should just keep on talking and debating about, hoping that things will change without our own contribution.
There's a lot of work that can and needs to be done in this effort.
WE need to strengthen ourselves.
WE need to work together and speak as one.
WE need to overcome our own political apathy.
WE need to project ourselves from a position of strength.
WE need to fight the good fights.
Ultimately, WE need to take control of our own Empowerment. It's not something that we should just keep on talking and debating about, hoping that things will change without our own contribution.
There's a lot of work that can and needs to be done in this effort.
Tony, I am half-asian and half-white. Since I self-identify as Asian American and am clearly identified by mainstream America as non-white, I would assume most would call me Asian American. I don't buy all of this "torn between two worlds" bullshit. That's not to say it's bullshit for others--they are much better at interpreting their own experience than I am, but for me, there's never been much question from the time the police harassed me, and my mom taught me what they meant by "we are trying to keep the neighborhood safe".
I agree with everything you've written above. We need to do all of those things strategically. I'd just say that we need to collaborate and speak together with the force of millions. After all, we don't want to speak in unison--that only plays to mainstream stereotypes of Asian Americans which have endured from the racist war propaganda.
A lot of us ARE doing all of those things as individuals. However, it's not enough. We need to do it intentionally and collaboratively on a much grander scale.
To be fair, a lot of what Jenn has been hoping for lately.
"All asian men are like puppy dogs"
It's ok. All white men are like RACIST puppy dogs. ;P
You know, I think it might be due to my recent confrontational nature, but I've been pondering the idea of what really is my identity? Most my life, I've thought of myself as Chinese or Asian American.
I was born in China and came here when I was 6. I started kindergarten here, learned english, studied here, work here, became naturalized here, etc...I just turned 33 last month....
Anyway, my point in going through my little history is...am I really Asian first and American second? Or am I American first and Asian second?
After some thought, I decided to switch. All these years, I categorized myself as Asian, living in America. It's what I was taught by my parents. It's what the media showed. It's what most Asian Americans tell me. It seems like every Asian American keeps on telling me that the typical white guy is still not going to think of me as an American...
Hm...but is that REALLY the case? Why AREN'T I an American?
1) I've lived in America for the over 80% of my life.
2) English is my primary language (I speak a rare dialect of chinese at first grade level)
3) I've studied in America all my life.
4) I've work in America.
5) I pay American taxes.
6) And lastly, I've been a citizen of America since I was 11.
The last time I was in China was when I was 15. I was there fore 6 weeks and I HATED IT there. I couldn't speak Chinese well, and I felt completely isolated from everyone. It was hot, dirty, mosquito infested. I was COMPLETELY reliant on my relatives.
No, I'd have to admit now that unfortunately, I'm no longer Chinese. I have to just accept the fact that I'm American first, and Chinese second.
What what about what others would think? Would the typical white American really see me as an American?
It really doesn't matter to me. I'm marking my territory. I'm staking my claim. This is my country. This is mine. And I'm going to have to defend it if anyone wants to take it from me whether it's whites, blacks, latinos, or even other Asians.
I think about it this way. Obviously I'm American. However, in the eyes of the majority in the country, none of the stuff above matters--I'm always and forever a colored, second-class American. When paternalistic white liberals tell me, "It's so sad that minorities call themselves ____ Americans instead of just Americans" it is an attempt to deny that basic reality that I can call myself "Uncle Fucking Sam" and they'll still say, "If you don't like it Uncle Fucking Sam, go back where you came from!"
So I'm Asian American as a acknowledgment of the ethnic climate and reality. That doesn't mean I let others define me. I think I'm just me. A brilliant, beautiful individual. But I'm not naive enough to think that me knowing that makes it true in the minds of others.
As to whether your realization is "unfortunate" or not, let me offer you an alternative:
There exist infinite possible "Americas". One of them is the historical America where people of color are tolerated as cheap labor and exotic sex partners and then lynched or silenced if they ask too many questions. Another is that place where everyone really does have equal opportunity and is judged on merit rather than demographics.
If you don't like the former, you must fight for the latter or whatever vision of the society you have forged in your own heart and mind.
That is the America I love and quite frankly, it's a lot prettier than the current America.
Yup, we definitely have to fight all right. But I somehow doubt very much that we're going to achieve that perfect America.
WE need to be the ones who define what American is.
WE need to project ourselves as American and not as some marginalized group of people who just happen to live here, but have no real claim here.
WE need to fight those who wish to push us out of our rightful place in this country.
WE need to demand and fight for respect as valued members of THIS society.
WE need to draw our boundaries and be willing to defend them.
WE need to step up when we're challenged.
WE need to learn to defend ourselves and those who we love.
WE need to learn how to act, rather than sit and complain about how things are so hopeless.
This IS my country. And if anyone wants to take that from me, then they'll have to come and pry it off my cold dead fingers.
Absolutely. I think we can all agree on those. However, we always get to this point and stop. We need to as a community articulate direct what each of those mean. How DO we define our boundaries? How do we define America? How do fight those who marginalize us without it facilitating that marginalization?
We can do it, but we need to be strategic.
In many respects, I find Asian American women to be a huge liability to Asian American men.
This article and then the "blah" attitude of the comments after it are a perfect example of that. This is why I chide Asian American men for focusing on non-Asian American male issues first. Once that's fixed, then maybe we should "help" others.
It's the age old comment of "you give a little, you get a little." The amount of "help" Asian American women should receive from Asian American men should DIRECTLY correlate with how much Asian American women are helping Asian American men.
If you wait for justice for yourself to "go through" first, you will be waiting a long time. You just ignored a long thoughtful post from Jenn explain how she feels like she is giving a lot and getting little from Asian American men.
Basic logic should tell you where that ends--no one helping each other.
Well, I think that the first thing we need to do is to start with ourselves.
I'm talking about an attitude of empowerment. We as a group have waaayyyy too much apathy. So often, I see AA people say that things will never change, that it's hopeless, that people will never listen, that we have to just sit and wait.
I don't like that attitude at all. We need to change how we view our paths. We really need to change how AA people think about ourselves.
But just exactly who are we? Are we Asian Americans (with ASIAN first?) or are we AMERICANS who happen to be of Asian descent? It looke like it's a very small difference, but in reality, it's HUGE.
As Asians living in America, we'll always be marginalized foreigners, no matter how many generations we've been here. We'll always be second class citizens (as you mentioned).
But if we see ourselves as AMERICANS first, then that puts us at equal footing as whites, blacks, latinos, jews, whoever. WE have to put our foot in the door. WE have to kick the door down if they shut it in front of us.
WE have to change this mindset within ourselves. WE need to know what's rightfully ours to begin with. I'm an American, and no one is going to take that away from me.
The second step after that is achieved (and that's a HUGH achievement by the way), then we need to influence and project to OUTSIDERS who we are. WE need to let others know that WE really are AMERICANS as well. This includes correcting and challenging others who want to portray us as FOREIGN or an DIFFERENT. This involves fighting for our rights. This involves communicating to others, both Asian and non-Asian, of our intent to be part of THIS great country.
I really don't think that anyone can argue with this point. And if they do, then WE have to challenge and confront them to show then that they're wrong when they think that only whites can be called Americans.
This will take many many battles and many many confrontations. However, each battle that's fought will bring us one step closer to others finaly accepting us as we are, and that's first class AMERICANS. But as I said, it WILL take MANY MANY battles.
The real questions is going to be, are we really ready to FIGHT those battles? The answer has better be "YES".
Tony, I have never lumped Jenn together "with the enemy". Nor have I ever made any mention of reference to her relationship. As far as I am concerned, her relationship is her own private business.
Secondly, I am only here for an exchange of ideas, conversation, and debate. Nobody is "ganging up" on anybody. If there is alignment in terms of opinion between myself and some other posters, then that is simply agreement.
Thirdly, to Jenn: I don't see why you are so upset by my statement that I feel that the Asiance article typifies the mentality of a "large number" of Asian women. That is my own personal opinion. I didn't say all or even "most". My opinions are based on my own personal experiences, which don't supercede anybody's else's. At the end of the day, that's all each of us have to go on: our own personal experiences.
As an interesting aside: When you look at the gay Asian male community, you will find that a large number of them date white men as well. The *same* dynamics apply. Internalized racism can manifest itself in several ways, and it is not wrong to point it out and have a discussion on it.
In regards to action vs apathy, I have a son and daughter that I am raising to be strong, respectful individuals who are proud of their Chinese heritage. Between working 60 hrs/week, caring for my 2 children and caring for my disabled parents, I don't have time to attend rallys, travel to different cities to attend academemic forums, or door-canvas for a political candidate I like. I barely have enough time to get 6 hrs of sleep per night much less engage in social activism. But I can make sure that my progeny are properly equipped to handle the challenges ahead.
But if we see ourselves as AMERICANS first, then that puts us at equal footing as whites, blacks, latinos, jews, whoever. WE have to put our foot in the door. WE have to kick the door down if they shut it in front of us.
This is only true if we take power to define "Americans" as we see fit. As long as that is left to the ethnic majority, we will NEVER be "Americans" as much as we may assimilate.
We must learn from previous generations and the experiences of other groups of color in the country. It doesn't matter how much you drop ancestral culture and assimilate, mainstream America will not treat you with equality.
So destroy mainstream America's hold on the definition of terms.
OK, it may seem like I'm out here to criticize people for not doing enough, but I'm not.
I know that people are extremely busy now a days. And I know that people have really high expectations as to what they want to see happen.
While I think that it's great to set high goals, I also think that having such high expectations is the root cause of some of the apathy since it's very easy to give up when there's seems to be such an overwhelming and intimidating obstacle to face. I'm not talking about you, but there are some Asians who don't think any change will occur since there seems to be such a huge mountain to climb.
The real question then becomes, how do you motivate people even when it seems like they're faced with a losing battle? How do you get them to keep on fighting, when victory seems non-existant?
I believe the answer is this:
Sucess should never be based on overall victory.
It should be based on what you CAN accomplish versus what you DO accomplish.
So, here's a real life example: Randy, it seems like you have a lot on your plate. You might think that you need to devote 100% of your time by "fighting for the cause", but you can't possibly do that since you have so many other priorities in you life and thus, you might feel a little guilty.
Let's say that you can only give 1% to "the cause" and you do give that 1%. In this scenario, you should feel proud of the fact that you gave what you could. You've achieved all that you could achieve.
You're not God. You don't have limitless resources to devote to anything. We have to accept our limitations and be happy that we achieve what we CAN achieve based on those limitations.
So many people think that they need to give 110%, and so because of such high expectations, they don't even want to start. What they don't realize is that it's better to get just 1% out of them than to get 0%. If 1,000 people each give 1%, then that's a tremendous amount of work. And of course, if 1,000 people give 0%, then you get nothing.
I know my own limitations. I know that I'm not that smart. I know that I'm not that strong. I know I'm not that attentive. I know that I'm not that attractive. But I also know this: Whatever I DO have, I'll give, even if it's just 0.01%. That's how I know I've achieved success.
I may not have much, but whatever I do have, I'll give and I'll have to be satisfied with that since I really can't give you more than what I have.
Xian:
"This is only true if we take power to define "Americans" as we see fit. As long as that is left to the ethnic majority, we will NEVER be "Americans" as much as we may assimilate."
You are ABSOLUTELY correct. THAT'S what I mean by taking control of how we project ourselves. We CANNOT let other define for us who WE are.
WE have to project who we are. WE have to define ourselves. WE have to claim what's ours and WE have to be ready to draw our boundaries and defend it if need be.
WE need to go out and take a proactive/aggressive/assertive stance as to how we are preceived and how we need to be treated.
*deleted and banned*
No ad hominem attacks.
Edited By Siteowner
WTF?
To Lisa:
I think I have the same reaction as Xian above.
Tony Koo:
You got facebook or anything? :D
I think you have the same mentality as I did a year ago. I still kind of do. I do what I do in real life trying to advocate for other AA's as much I can to my ability. And I'm doin it knowing not much may happen till after I'm dead.
Commenting by HaloScan
