Texican Tattler
Don't most gunfights just involve a couple of shots? What's all the emphasis on reload?
I'm sure it's all much fun, but I think there are dangerous people who can kill you with a 1911 or a #2 pencil and other folks would couldn't scratch you with a M4 full auto and a 100 round drum.
That said: anyone who shoots is my friend. Anyone who doesn't is a little suspect. Its only money.
The numbers are rising past the 1-2 shots that used to be the case, Robert. A few LEOs that I trust are telling me that the avg rounds in a gunfight are over 10 now...
It's like this, Robert - imagine if I walked up to you and told you that I could improve your long range rifle shooting.
The fact that I am probably no where near your equal in that arena is unimportant. But because I have the proper mindset and tactics, I'll beat you every time.
Silly, isn't it?
I would also point out that Mr. Murphy is out there. Having the skill sets to perform tasks you "hopefully" won't need isn't a bad thing. Not having the skills "is" a bad thing.
We have heard many reports of people not having a mag in the gun, it fell out. People ripping the base pad off their mag. Bad mag springs. And on and on.
So not having a skill set to correct any of those problems could be viewed as a shortcoming in your training.
Great write up 'Fish.
Dan
Amen to all that. When I hear about someone taking a self-defense shooting class, I ask who the instructor is. If it's not a name I know, it's probably someone who's just going to take their money. Sad thing is, most people are fine with that. They will probably learn something they didn't know before, and that's great. The problem is, most people stop right there. Who's going to win a gunfight: a determined bad guy (who probably has done this before), or the innocent civilian who learned a couple of things but never practiced them?
What scares me most about these instructors is that they might instill a false sense of security in someone, rather than encourage them to understand that skill only comes with practice.
And what is the easiest, most inexpensive way to practice the skills you learned in your shooting class? What is the easiest way to continue your learning and improvement of the gun skills you paid money for? Where will you be forced to think outside your comfort zone and required to use skills you don't, won't or can't practice?
Competition shooting.
Dan
The way I see it there's two things at play here. Time and Effectiveness. Mindset buys you time. If you're not in denial about the nature of the situation, and you're not pondering how to respond you will respond faster. If your "Combat Mindset" buys you 1 second, and you use that second to make an effective shot in 3 seconds instead of 4. That's the same as not having the mindset, dithering and deciding and turning the shot you could normally make in 2 seconds into a 3 second shot.
The principal works in the other direction as well. If you can draw and deliver effective fire in 2 seconds in a situation were the bad guy will hole you in 3 seconds, you dont really need to move, but if its going to take you 4 seconds to stoke up the smoke pole, you'd better train to move while you draw and so you can lengthen the time it takes the BG to be effective.
Bottom line, being extremely fast and deadly accurate can make up for a pedestrian mindset and less than ninja like tactics.
We called 'em drill sergeants.
A tactical reload might have come in handy in New Orleans, September 2005.
Nothing like dropping precious magazines into flood water for turning your handgun into a crappy club.
If there were no more bad guys around, then yeah, stowing the old mag is a good plan. In the thick of it, though, I don't think so.
My life is worth more to me than a $35 magazine.
Bottom line, being extremely fast and deadly accurate can make up for a pedestrian mindset and less than ninja like tactics.
No, it can't. A pedestrian mindset leaves you in a state where panic and indecision can cost you your life. There's really a straw-man being built in this thread, that the 'warrior mindset' translates to some bullshit ninja thing. It's that you have to be willing to kill a man, you have to be willing to fight like you're already dead. To sum, you need both attributes. If I can hit a bullseye 100/100, but can't drop the hammer on a man, I might die. If I have the warrior mind of Conan, but can't hit a barn from the inside, I might die. Both skills are needed, but neither to an absolute.
When all of your other mags are all lost in flood water, how much is that last magazine worth to ya?
Dude, seriously. If I am at my last mag I'm in a world of shit because that means I'll have gone through two pistol mags and at least 3 rifle mags.
It also means I'm probably somewhere I shouldn't have been to begin with.
Can you show me documented evidence of ANY shooting in the United States where the good guy civilian types went through over 30 rounds of pistol ammo and 90 of rifle ammo? Anywhere?
And tkderry - "If I have the warrior mind of Conan, but can't hit a barn from the inside, I might die. Both skills are needed, but neither to an absolute." - I can't really argue with that. You need to be willing to do whatever you have to do to survive and win; but without the skill set necessary you're just pissin' in the wind. My problem with some of the tactical crowd is that they spent 90% of their time developing the mindset and maybe, maybe 10% of their time developing their skills.
And if I'm bunkered in the house protecting my family that would be;
6 rifle mags @ 180 rounds plus several hundred loose rounds to reload those mags with.
32 pistol mags, with capacities varying from 8 rounds all the way to 20 rounds, something like 48 rounds plus 180 rounds, plus 84 rounds. I would send the gungrabbers into heart failure if I gave out how much ammo I have, it would be considered a lot.
That doesn't count .22's.
Shotgun is 6 rounds (5 in the tube and 1 chambered) - but how do we consider the 200 rounds in boxes.
In the situation that you describe, I would be carrying a Glock and either an AK-47 or a 12 Ga shotgun. For the glock, if you drop them in mud and water - who cares, wipe them off they'll work. The AK-47 if it goes in the mud, mine would consider that lubricant and shoot better, but a good wipe down won't hurt. The 12 Ga only tosses out used shells, so as long as I don't drop the unused sheels it won't miss a beat.
I'm not saying the tactical reload is the cats ass, just that it has it's place.
You are violating the spirit of your post with the co-op "It also means I'm probably somewhere I shouldn't have been to begin with." I thought this was about performance, not blind mindset.
I never practice a tactical reload. But I have a feeling I'd start practicing if flood waters where either likely or had started to occur, but I wasn't bailing out of my home.
So who would you recommend in the Metroplex?
I have been out to Tiger Valley, and did a little half day with Steve Moses.
If you would prefer, my email is in my profile.
Thanks
"You are violating the spirit of your post with the co-op "It also means I'm probably somewhere I shouldn't have been to begin with." I thought this was about performance, not blind mindset."
I never said at any time that mindset was not important. What I did say, or have tried to say is that as far as your mindset goes is that people spend way to much time developing a mindset that you either have or you don't. Why not spend the time practicing the skills because without them a "warrior" mindset is worthless.
And tac loads have their place. On the range. NOT on the street. As mentioned in my original post, IPDA made them the vogue thing to learn how to do - not the reality of things happening on the street. I would not recommend spending any time in the world learning how to do them unless you were going to start shooting IDPA.
There are a lot more things that you can spend your time working on than a tac load.
Hey, JR - I see you were at the gun show this weekend, same time as I was there! Small world.
Steve's a great guy, decent shooter, very tactical. I hear his knife class is the best there is. I've shot with Steve quite a bit, and he's too "tactical" for me - sneak and peek, duck-walk, tactical scan, etc. Mind you, I've got nothing bad to say about Steve - he's the real deal. The difference between Steve and the Tactical Tommies is that he's doing it for real - he really does scan targets afterwards, and he really is being tactical in a match. He also has taught all of us basic gunshot wound care. He's a good guy to know.
I can't vouch for Tiger Valley - Catfish, isn't that where you had a day full of getting muzzle-swept?
We're actually teaching a class on April 13th at Quail Creek, I think. You should come out. You'll get your money's worth, and we'd all get to meet you!
jr - that one.
Hey jr (that one)
We've probably rubbed shoulders a time or two.
Catfish has me all set up for the 13th, so I will see you there.
Steve is a good man, and I think a good trainer. He helped our range/club out by offering to give a safety course before we started running carbine matches.
Ah, you must shoot with the Crosstimbers crowd!
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