Enlighten Me! :)
Sorry Jim, but I agree that homeschooling, by and large, is not a good way to prepare children for the rigors of adult society in America. Although some religious fanatics feel that they can isolate their children from being indoctrinated by the public school, what they are really doing is depriving their kids of a well rounded education. It's like a stool with only two legs: it will fall over as soon as any wieght is applied to it. how would you feel about Muslims homeschooling their kids? Wouldn't it be better for them to integrate with our society rather than segregate into their own fanatical beliefs? These people are the Evangelical Taliban.
They want to be separate from society. Sounds like the Branch Davidians or something.
The noose around the neck of Lady Liberty is tightening....
Go to the range! Practice, practice, practice. In a time (becoming more of a time certain as we idly discuss it), it will be necessary to put these skills to use.
Being home schooled does not in all situations create a vacuum in their lives.As far as the Branch Davidians are concerned we only know what the Government wants us to know,after all the crime scene was destroyed as soon as possible to avoid any real investigation.And this was done by the same Government that controls the educational system that you seem to think so highly of.
Homeschooling was the norm in America up until the middle of the 19th century. Just look at all the famous Americans who were homeschooled:
George Washington
Thomas Jefferson
Benjamin Franklin
John Quincy Adams
James Madison
Abraham Lincoln
Teddy Roosevelt
Woodrow Wilson
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Patrick Henry
Daniel Webster
William Penn
Albert Einstein
Thomas Edison
Alexander Graham Bell
Mark Twain
Robert E. Lee
Douglas MacArthur
George Patton
Children do not belong to the state; it is the parents' right to raise their children as they deem best.
Crimson Wife- This is the 21st century, and things have changed exponentially since then. If you hired a qualified (possesing a valid teaching credential from whatever juridiction) professional then I would agree that this child would be getting a decent education. Teaching your child yourself with a "how-to" book does not cut it. Even then, you are not getting the full benefit of the daily social interaction with people who are different from ourselves. Look, I have no beef with private school:even religious ones. You will note that you do not have to be a member of that religion to go to their school.
Homeschooling is exactly what you accuse the public education system of doing: Brainwashing a young child to believe what you want them to believe.
From personal experience, all the home schoolers I've met have been vastly more intelligent than public-schoolers. And not emotionally scarred or unprepared in any way. Public schools only barely work, and then only because we have dedicated teachers. When the government makes it too tough for even them, the system will fail. Public school doesn't teach anymore. They tell people how to live, and what to do with their lives. They also tend to be authoritarian, while pretending they respect students. Plus, the social aspect of public school isn't that great either. Sure, you make friends, good friends. But at the same time you also have to deal with all the potheads and jerks, because public schools let everyone in. There's no interview or any of that, like in colleges or private schools.
The system needs to be privatized, or put in the hands of the citizens, not the state.
Tim: my sister-in-law is a teacher in a government-run school and she has told me that the coursework for her B.Ed. was an absolute joke. Her (private) *HIGH SCHOOL* classes were more challenging! The average SAT score for a new teacher places them in the *BOTTOM THIRD* of all college graduates.
I actually looked into what it would take for me to get a teacher's credential in my state. Out of the 12 required courses, only 3 were in subject-specific methods. The rest were politically correct edu-babble such as "Multicultural Foundations of a Diverse Classroom" and other such nonsense.
The top private schools in this country tend NOT to hire teachers with education degrees. They prefer to hire graduates from top colleges with an actual degree in the subject they will teach.
RM- My daughter is a product of the public school, has a 4.0 GPA (this even though she is taking college level courses in anatomy, calculus, european history, physics, etc.) She also is a lettered athlete (how do homeschoolers participate in varsity sports?) and got a near perfect score on the ACT. She has a scholorship to attend college and will be going this fall. Believe me, she has been well educated by our public school system.
I don't believe that home schooling emotionally scars anyone, they just miss out on interacting with people with different beliefs. Also, I don't feel that parents are qualified to teach their children everything they need to know for a well rounded education. A "how-to" book isn't going to cut it. This isn't political, I could care less about all the limited govt. pap, it's about providing all Americans with an education and a cultural reference point.
We are, afterall American. What ever God we pray to (or not), whatever candidates we vote for. Let's not become even more divided. Are there problems with some public schools? Of course. Let's fix them instead of spouting the same old Republican line "govt. is the problem, let's privatize it". That's not solving anything. It's just putting money in the pockets of big business at the expense of our kids.
People may laugh, but studies have shown that kids and teens only learn about 10-15 minutes worth from each class on average because of the way that mass schooling is done.
Tim, are we now officially in Bizzaro world?
Yes, we are in Bizzaro world after 8 years of W. running this country into thew ground.
"Let's fix them instead of spouting the same old Republican line 'govt. is the problem, let's privatize it.'"
That's just it. Government IS the problem.
The problem in the modern American classroom is that the class has to be taught to the lowest common denominator. Someone like your daughter, whom you mentioned is intelligent, was having her educational experience dumbed down for the morons in the back of the class too worried about getting out of school that afternoon and getting high.
Government does not foster competition among schools, or students. Hell, it barely even allows it. We have to make sure everyone feels equally important, so you can't send the smarter students off to one class while putting the slower kids in another one. Nope, that's discrimination. So, in typical socialist fashion, we'll just teach everyone equally! We'll make sure that most American students can't spell, as long as they feel unique and special.
The only way to fix the school system is to allow competition. That means giving parents the right-and the means-to seek a better education for their children.
Homeschooling isn't the "brainwashing" you claim it is, either. Do you know that parents of homeschoolers establish entire social networks for their children? Children in a homeschooled environment are allowed to participate in athletics through public schools, as well as other clubs and activities.
I'm sorry you feel that the only way to ensure your child's education is to hand her over to the government. Ever think that there is a better way? And don't give me this line about "more money" bullcrap. Save yourself some time; I'll blow holes in that theory so big you could fit a submarine through them.
Just for the record: there's no way in hell my children will ever go to a public school.
There are homeschool sports teams in many Christian school leagues. One of the recent Heisman trophy winners was homeschooled.
Homeschoolers also have the opportunity to take AP courses through distance education. Just because a student is learning at home doesn't necessarily mean that the parent is teaching him/her in every single subject. Stanford offers 7 AP courses online and Johns Hopkins offers 10 AP courses online.
By contrast, the government-run high school I attended offered a grand total of *ONE* AP course.
The amount of "diversity" in my graduating class could be counted on 1 hand: 2 African-Americans, 2 Mormons, and a Jew. All the kids were upper-middle-class or affluent.
By contrast, the kids in our homeschooling support group include African-Americans, Latinos, Asian-Americans, and several of bi- or multiracial heritage. There are families of many different faiths plus a number who are non-religious. Some are on very tight budgets while others could easily afford to send their kids to private schools if they wanted to. The great thing is that by and large the kids don't seem to notice these differences. You don't see the type of self-segregation so often found in government-run schools.
CR- My daughter has taken at least six AP courses and is currently taking Mandarin Chinese, and this "teaching to the lowest common denominator that BobG speaks of is something that I have not seen. Niether one of you can explain why a parent is as qualified as the public school system to educate their child. I didn't say public education is better than private school. I am saying that homeschooling is not as good as either. BobG, send your kids to private school, that's great. You are giving them a great opportunity.
Living overseas I was homeschooled (Calvert), sent away to boarding school, and then upon our return to the American Embrace attended the Gubb'mint school at precisely the time they introduced SMSG Math - later proven and acknowledged to be one of the biggest educational blunders ever foisted on a generation of kids.
By far the most undisciplined, lazy, conspicuously wealthy, and actively anti-American kids that I spent time socializing with (and getting stoned with) were those elites in the highly accredited government schools I attended - in my hometown of Palo Alto...
I just think how much farther they could have gone - a kid from my Jr. High built a Super Computer and tried to sell it...to the Russians. He got caught and did fifteen years.
If we wanted to send our children to one of the private schools in my area, that would run us $15-$25k per year per child for elementary and $20-$35k per year per child for high school. Our family has a decent income, but not high enough to afford that kind of tuition. Moving to a neighborhood with "good" government-run schools (from an academic standpoint, since they definitely aren't good from a morality standpoint) is not financially an option for us either.
The neighborhood government-run school is ranked in the bottom 20% statewide of schools with similar demographics. There is no way I would ever send my kids there!
Tim, I am glad your daughter is doing so well. But what has that to do with homeschooling? I also excelled in school. What has that to do with homeschooling? You said:
Also, I don't feel that parents are qualified to teach their children everything they need to know for a well rounded education. A "how-to" book isn't going to cut it.
But because you "feel" it doesn't make it so. And I don't know what on earth you are referring to in your "how-to" book. Parents are more than qualified to teach their children the basic skills many of our public schools are floundering with. Through elementary I doubt anyone would even need a curriculum if they were willing to do the work. But there is a lot more available than a simple "how-to" book, whatever it is that you are referring to.
Besides, check some of the research. Do you know how little things like teacher certification, teacher experience, per pupil spending, high-tech facilities, curricula, and other school-related factors matter? On the surface, they seem to, but when all factors are taken into consideration there is one that trumps all others in terms of student success. Beyond even socioeconomic factors.
And that is parental involvement. If parents are involved in their children's education, they succeed, whether that is in a good public school or a bad one. Which demonstrates why it is that homeschools are so successful.
Even the NEA recognizes the importance of parental involvement as the number one indicator of school success.
I never thought I would agree with anything that goes on in California but I may be on board with this one. The few peers of my daughter that are homeschooled are taught by overbearing control freak parents who are raising precious little snowflakes that will be unable to function once they get slapped down into reality. The option may have started out as a good one but it seems parents can barely be trusted to teach their own kids manners...now they want to educate the little monsters?
So because you know someone who you think is an "overbearing control freak" everyone should lose the right to direct the education of their own children? I know of a public school teacher who told a four year old she was good for nobody so should all students be removed from public school?
If a child is being abused, they are being abused. It has to do with the abusers, not the institution or liberties they are exercising.
I have heard from Teachers about overbearing control-freak parents who have come into their classroom with demands that their child be treated specially - so I guess it's not exclusive to Homeschooling.
The curriculum and materials that my brother and sister and I received were pretty straightforward in History, Math, Science, Literature (reading) and Art - and allowed us to accelerate as quickly as we could withoug inhibition, or spend the time necessary to develop proficiency and then mastery - instead of being tied to the plow with the rest of the herd or to the mill-stone along going in circles.
In Junior High I often thought that the pedestrian pace of the Government Schooling (and blunders like New Math) was simply and callously designed to "socialize" the students merely by ensuring that everybody, at a minimum (a common theme, minimization of experience and minimal requirements) underwent the same shared uniform drudgery and misery. If that's what "child socializing" is all about than I wonder if it's really worth it.
http://www.safehaven.com/article...rticle-
5205.htm
Walter Williams talked about teacher qualification in his column "Educational Ineptitude, Con't" a few years back. He sited the National Center for Education Statistics which backs up what has been said here about teachers not being the "most qualified" people to teach our children.
I am not sure how anyone cannot get that homeschoolers have much greater opportunities for real life social experiences than those who spend the majority of their time in groups of agemates?
Let me get this straight...I am expected to give birth to a child, teach him to walk, talk, tie his shoes, use the potty, wash his hands, brush his teeth, dress himself, and listen to adults and then I am not qualified to teach him to read, write and do math?
What is wrong with this picture? The child is MINE, not the states. Homeschoolers are better edcuated in the fact that they are learning concepts, rather than being "taught to the test". I have seen way to many young adults who couldn't read at a 5th grade level, nor give proper amount of change and you want me to believe that they were "properly educated" since they were in the public school system????
My children are very socialized with other families, even with ones that go to public and private schools. They are not being brainwashed, nor are they going to grow up to be terrorists!
They are given time to cultivate their interests and their skills and are turning out to be fine young adults who have a handle on current events and society!
"Niether one of you can explain why a parent is as qualified as the public school system to educate their child."
Can you point to the research that shows qualified teachers consistently turn out better educated students then homeschooling parents? Even that 'qualified' teachers who homeschool their children do better then unqualified parents? That the qualifications for teaching in a school are even applicable to the home environment?
"I am saying that homeschooling is not as good as either."
For anyone to actually accept that statement you have to go beyond saying that to actually providing support for your statements. What is it, anecdotes aside, that made this idea that homeschooling is not as good so firm in your mind?
This is not a debate about the merits of homeschooling and how it may or may not affect a childs social skills.
This is about the Government taking away parents rights to raise their own children, this attempt to take away the rights of American parents is a affront to this nations founding principles.
Einstein was not homeschooled. We are currently reading a great biography on him and I also thought he was homeschooled and have learned otherwise.:
Albert attended a Catholic elementary school. Although Albert had early speech difficulties, he was a top student in elementary school.
In his early teens, Albert attended the new and progressive Luitpold Gymnasium. His father intended for him to pursue electrical engineering, but Albert clashed with authorities and resented the school regimen. He later wrote that the spirit of learning and creative thought were lost in strict rote learning.
Albert had been left behind in Munich (when the family moved) to finish high school, but in the spring of 1895, he withdrew to join his family in Pavia, convincing the school to let him go by using a doctor's note.
Rather than completing high school, Albert decided to apply directly to the ETH Zurich, the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich, Switzerland. Without a school certificate, he was required to take an entrance examination, which he did not pass, although he got exceptional marks in mathematics and physics.
The Einsteins sent Albert to Aarau, Switzerland to finish secondary school.
In 1896, he graduated at age 17, renounced his German citizenship to avoid military service (with his father's approval), and finally enrolled in the mathematics program at ETH. Einstein graduated in 1900 from ETH with a degree in physics.
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And another source sums it nicely:
Albert Einstein was born at Ulm, in Württemberg, Germany, on March 14, 1879. Six weeks later the family moved to Munich, where he later on began his schooling at the Luitpold Gymnasium. Later, they moved to Italy and Albert continued his education at Aarau, Switzerland and in 1896 he entered the Swiss Federal Polytechnic School in Zurich to be trained as a teacher in physics and mathematics. In 1901, the year he gained his diploma, he acquired Swiss citizenship and, as he was unable to find a teaching post, he accepted a position as technical assistant in the Swiss Patent Office. In 1905 he obtained his doctor's degree.
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On a personal note, I am sure there was some form of home education that took place during all of that public and private schooling as school calendars were very different and there were stretches of time at home.
Tim (if you are still around),
You commented "Homeschooling is exactly what you accuse the public education system of doing: Brainwashing a young child to believe what you want them to believe."
Yes homeschooling is indoctrination just as the public school system is indoctrination. The question is WHOSE indoctrination do you want your children to have and WHOSE indoctrination do I want my children to have. Also, WHO has the RIGHT to determine the method and content of the indoctrination?
I completely disagree with your (and the government's) right to forced indoctrination. A nation built on liberty should never allow mass indoctrination as determined by a select few.
This twisted view of liberty within the public education system is one of the main reasons why many people choose to homeschool. THE SYSTEM does not make men free, but rather it enslaves them to the rituals, values and indoctrination of the system. Men are created free and we must continue to allow and encourage freedom and liberty. This liberty as granted to all man by God is exactly what has made this country great.
You want to force all children into one size fits all public and/or private school systems, whereas, homeschool parents want to love, expand, expose and guide their children into a world as diverse as the many different parents who desire to homeschool.
Again, your claims of forced indoctrination into a system which is antithetical to liberty itself is one of the main reasons to encourage and support homeschooling. You may desire the shackles of mass indoctrination, but for me and my family, we will choose liberty.
Tim, you had asked how homeschoolers participate in varsity sports. Well, I went to public school and never participated! Going to public high school also doesn't automatically mean you are going to the prom and will be the most popular kid in the class! I am glad that your daughter is doing so well, but most parents want to protect their children. Not from sports, or other classes, but from the drugs, the shootings, or the myriad of other dangers that sending them to school involves! Going to public school also doesn't automatically make them ready for college, either. Personal maturity, and parental involvement go a long way for that. And, as a side note, many colleges are opening up scholarships for homeschoolers that will allow them to attend,since they are finding that in general, homeschooled students have better study habits than their public schooled peers. (must be from not having to worry about being shot on the way to class!)
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