Share your thoughts...or, in the case of moonbats, your unintelligble grunts!
To be filed in the ' think before you speak' drawer.
Personal-deity-of-choice-forbid people should be accountable for their choices...
Correct you are, Anndi.
Sadly, I think that Waller DID think that statement through before making it. Remember that, in the eyes of liberals, those that excel must have done so in nefarious ways.
I have no problem with Bloomberg’s plan. One, it's privately funded. Two, it's good behaviorism to reward behavior you want people to do. Any parent or teacher will tell you that.
However, Margie just wants to axe the idea down because it's coming from a Republican (even if it's in Name only). God Forbid, a Republican finds private funds to help people who are not rich out. Only public funds should be used! Got to love when something good and helpful to people who need the help is destroyed because of politics.
If the government takes care of you the government is your ruler and you are a slave to it!
Well said!
Pretty much the similar fate of 19th century African Slaves and modern day welfare residents.
Need I add prostitutes to the list.
"It just reinforces the impression that if everybody would just work hard enough and change their personal behavior we could solve poverty in this country, and that's not reflected in the facts," said Margy Waller, co-founder of Inclusion, a research and policy group in Washington.
That may be one of the most astonishing, ridiculous - yet insightful - quotes I have ever heard. Here's open look into the warped (il)logic of a Leftist.
Un-freaking-real!
I'm of too sides on this.
First of all I believe both sides of this debate have merit.
On the one hand I would say from my own personal experience 70% to 80% of people who don't do well are in the position they are in because of bad choices.
HOWEVER....
What about the 10% left over? The elderly lady who cannot work because she has a debilitating disease yet her rent raises year after year.
The people who simply have runs of bad luck? Its easy to get into a situation where maybe you didn't place yourself in it. Maybe it isn't so hard to break out of as you think.
It's easy to sit and render judgment when your not in their shoes.
While it is true a great deal of poverty is caused by bad choices, that isn't the sole cause of poverty. Not everyone can be Bill Gates.
Also lets face it. Look at our politicians, look at the scumbags at company's like Enron. The rich are not the "great people who simply worked hard" that you make them out to be. Not that I'm saying honest, hard working people don't exist. But I personally believe the majority of those people are like my parents, and Johnathan, and most everyone else I know. Not the few at the top.
Like anything else in life you can't put this in black and white. Just shades of grey.
As for the program. If he wants to dump his own money into it whats the worse that could happen? We find out it works or we don't. Either way I don't see much harm done.
P.S. Johnathan on a completely unrelated note but touching base on a comment from a few posts back. LandMar is trying to set up some sort of "Special Tax District" in St. Mary's to help pay for cleaning up that old paper mill we have here. The trouble is I can't get a straight answer from anybody about what exactly this means although I have heard the words "Eminent Domain" tossed around.
Think we should be worried?
Hellohello dear, I see you're still at it. I have problems with Bloomberg's idea myself, but not because he's a Republican.
People are not poor because they are:
1. Stupid
2. Immoral
3. Desiring to harm themselves
4. Lazy
5. Dependent on someone else
Poor people are poor because they don't have enough money to survive and thrive. By thriving, incidentally, I mean doing more than just keeping oneself alive: getting an education, raising a family if one wishes, exploring one's own creativity, etc. Not stuff like consumer luxuries but stuff you can't do if you're constantly starving.
But you get an idiot like Bloomberg--and these idiots span the entire political spectrum, and apparently they include you and your commenter friends here, and thanks a lot by the way--who assumes that if someone is poor, that person hates themselves and doesn't want to take care of themselves. He's like that bitch who pays poor women to get sterilized. But if the only real difference between us and you is we have less money, where the hell do you get off thinking we are inferior, and where the hell do you get off thinking that you have to bribe us to make us care about ourselves? Or threaten us to achieve the same end, for that matter?
I still identify as a liberal because I feel I am more on that side than on the conservative side but I have a lot of trouble figuring out a precise definition for my politics anymore. I feel I am screwed over by all sides. There were things I could have done differently to prevent me getting to the point I am now, but where I am now is difficult to change and I have other priorities, like seeing my daughter raised the way I want her to be raised and not by random people looking for a paycheck. I would love to see this country adopt things like single-payer health insurance that really WOULD give me more of a chance to climb up out of my hole without taking stupid risks that might keep me down forever. But because they get tagged as "liberal" ideas, even though (for instance) the military and their families get the same kind of care and no conservative bats an eyelash (what does a military brat do to defend our country, exactly?), they never come to fruition and people like me get left farther and farther behind, except for the occasional random asshole who wants to toss us a doggie biscuit. It's insulting.
Anyway. Have fun. Rah-rah 'Noles and all that, hope you are well.
People are not poor because they are:
1. Stupid
2. Immoral
3. Desiring to harm themselves
4. Lazy
5. Dependent on someone else
Yes, they are, for any or all of those reasons, and for other reasons, too. As my liberal commenter Vince N. points out, most poor people are poor because of the lousy decisions they've made in their lives: doing drugs, neglecting education, having kids before finances were in order or significant emotional maturity had been reached, buying things that couldn't be afforded, etc. Obviously, this doesn't include everyone, i.e. those with mental deficiencies or physical defects that prevent them from working or getting educated. However, the overwhelming majority of those who are poor have no one to blame but themselves.
and these idiots span the entire political spectrum, and apparently they include you and your commenter friends here
To the best of my knowledge, Dana, neither I nor my commenters here are on welfare because we have unstable employment history (or poor work ethich, take your pick) OR we had a kid out of wedlock and another kid that lives across the country whom we never see because we've chosen a lifestyle of sleeping around with a bunch of different people. Ergo, I think it's safe to say your labeling us as idiots is a clear-cut case of projection at best, or rank hypocrisy at worst.
But if the only real difference between us and you is we have less money, where the hell do you get off thinking we are inferior
I assume you're asking rhetorically of Bloomberg, because at no point have I ever thought of myself as superior to ANYONE, much less anyone who has less money than I have.
...and where the hell do you get off thinking that you have to bribe us to make us care about ourselves?
I need a shower after that comment, because on that point, we actually...dare I say it?...agree.
I still identify as a liberal because I feel I am more on that side than on the conservative side but I have a lot of trouble figuring out a precise definition for my politics anymore.
"Barking moonbat of the batshit crazy variety" should fit the bill for you.
There were things I could have done differently to prevent me getting to the point I am now
And that, my little Chomskyite, is the exact point I was trying to make, a point you just made for me. You are exactly where you are because of choices you made. Everyone's choices have consequences, and I have not been immune from those consequences myself.
Look, I grew up in a middle-class family. Dad was a Marine, Mom never made more than $30k in a year, and I had to work my tail off to get into AND THROUGH college. It took me 10 years to pay off my student loan, and I borrowed WAY more than I should have because I stayed in school longer than I should have (partied too much).
However, the investment ultimately paid off because I got an education that allowed me to be the software professional I am today. It wasn't luck, Dana, and it wasn't "Tha Man's system", either. It wasn't Daddy Hilton's money. It wasn't the Florida lottery. It was me applying myself and utilizing my talents and sacrificing (time, money, and sometimes fun) that got me to where I am today. Therefore, if I can do it, then by (insert deity/deities of preference here), anyone can do it.
As a result, I have little patience for a person who has a lengthy track record of making supremely crappy choices bitching about how "the system" is screwing her (the "system" is about the only thing that isn't screwing you) and how it's everyone else's responsibility to pay for her choices in life. With the availability of online education sources and financial aid, then barring mental or physical defects, there are few valid reasons for anyone to neglect their education and learn some marketable skills to put food on the table, if not for themselves then at least for their kids.
I am not without compassion for the poor, even the poor who are self-made. Not at all. But I must confess that I have more respect for people who acknowledge their own complicity in their plight AND have a sincere desire AND willingness to do whatever it takes (legally, of course) to make their lives better, and I have little respect for those who blame "the system" for their 10+ years of failure in life.
On the one hand I would say from my own personal experience 70% to 80% of people who don't do well are in the position they are in because of bad choices.
Correct you are, Vince.
What about the 10% left over? The elderly lady who cannot work because she has a debilitating disease yet her rent raises year after year.
The people who simply have runs of bad luck? Its easy to get into a situation where maybe you didn't place yourself in it.
Again, Vince, you are correct. However, I wonder how effective a program such as Bloomberg's would be for these people? For example, if an elderly woman has a crippling disease and sees her rent jacked up each year, I doubt giving her financial incentives to change her behavior would work, since it probably wasn't her behavior that has placed her at risk.
While it is true a great deal of poverty is caused by bad choices, that isn't the sole cause of poverty. Not everyone can be Bill Gates.
The overwhelming reason that poverty exists can be attirbuted to poor choices. But you're right, as you've pointed out, not ALL who are poverty-stricken made bad choices. And no, not everyone can be Bill Gates. Lord knows I'm not!
The rich are not the "great people who simply worked hard" that you make them out to be.
This is where we have to disagree, my friend. I saw some studay last year (and forgive me for not remembering where, so you can take this with a grain of salt or not) where it said that less than 10% of the world's "wealthy" inherited their money. Of the remaining number, about 78% owned their own companies (or served on the board of corporations they founded). The remainder worked for someone else, presumably your CEO's and whatnot.
In other words, Vince, the vastly overwhelming majority of rich folks got there the old-fashioned way: they earrrrrrrrned it (kinda hard to mimic John Houseman in a comment! 
).
As for the CEO's and other corporate execs, they earn what the market bears out. True, I happen to think an awful lot of them are grossly and obscenely overpaid, such as Carly Fiorina who darned near bankrupted HP but got a $20+ million buyout and was THEN picked to run a different corporation...how friggin' insane is THAT?
As for the Enron/Global Crossing/Arthur Andersen robber barons, they got found out and dealt with...harshly. Unfortunately, they took a lot of innocent victims with them. Different story for a different day.
As for the program. If he wants to dump his own money into it whats the worse that could happen? We find out it works or we don't. Either way I don't see much harm done.
Back to agreeing with you here, Vince. I think the program is dumb, but if he wants to sink his own money into it, more power to him. Oprah tried something similar back in the 1990's in Chicago. She gave a bunch of poor people a good chucnk of money in the hopes they would better themselves.
End result? Two had used the money to get an education, upgrade their skillset, and move out of the projects and into better neighborhoods. Not into McMansions or gated communities, but into neighborhoods better than the ghetto. As for the rest, they were still poor, but they had some awesome electronics, cell phones, and pimped-out rides. Hey, Oprah's money, Oprah's loss.
LandMar is trying to set up some sort of "Special Tax District" in St. Mary's to help pay for cleaning up that old paper mill we have here. The trouble is I can't get a straight answer from anybody about what exactly this means although I have heard the words "Eminent Domain" tossed around.
Think we should be worried?
Probably, even if not for the reason you think. Florida has something called CDD's (Community Development Districts), whereby homebuilders want to build in an area but that would need infrastructure additions/improvements (electricity, water, roads, etc.). The homebuilders get the county to declare the area a CDD, which means that the local government will go ahead and make the infrastructure improvements and the county will be reimbursed by the CDD fees that will be paid for by the new homeowners when they move in. Pretty clever, huh? Developers get to reap millions and push the cost of the infrastructure on to to the homeowners.
Anywho, I'm wondering if that "Special Tax District" is the same type of thing, whereby some homeowners wind up footing LandMar's clean-up bill.
Well since real estate in NYC starts in the million dollar range, I wonder if the family of four renting in Brooklyn on a combined income of $200,000 (yet hardly staying in the black) would qualify for this program...or will they only be financing it?
Excellent question, Alli. Just WHO qualifies as "poor" in NYC?
" Hellohello dear, I see you're still at it. I have problems with Bloomberg's idea myself, but not because he's a Republican."
From what I saw on the news this moning Bloomberg has finally "come out" and said he is no longer a republican. Most of us knew that a long time ago.
As for the CEO's and other corporate execs, they earn what the market bears out. True, I happen to think an awful lot of them are grossly and obscenely overpaid, such as Carly Fiorina who darned near bankrupted HP but got a $20+ million buyout and was THEN picked to run a different corporation...how friggin' insane is THAT?
The point I was trying to make is that the people in the top 10% bracket in this country are mostly of this ilk. Just because they haven't been found out yet doesn't make them innocent. Again, i'm not saying they ALL are. But I do believe they mostly are. This isn't wealth envy. This is what I believe given what I've seen from our politicians and corporate CEO's. I would never want to be so rich that I didn't have to know what it meant to put in real work for a day. These people I feel do get to a point where they do feel that way.
As I said, I still think the hardest working people are those like me and you, We make this country go round and round economics wise.
Johnathan,
Update from my comment, The TAD was voted down apparently by a fairly large margin.
Barking moonbat of the batshit crazy variety
I just love this site!
Allow me to offer another perspective on this topic. That would be one from the son of a wealthy man. Yes, I’m one of those wicked, horrible people who sadly grew up “privileged”. How embarrassing.
I (gasp) didn’t have to take out a student loan. However, I still had to study. Money doesn’t buy achievement. Period. I wasn’t asked to speak at graduation because my father had money. I was asked to do so because I had the best grades. I had the best grades because I made the conscious decision to forgo a social life in favor of one that concentrated on completely grasping the subject material and understanding its applications.
I don’t live off of a trust fund. Honestly, I lived in sub-standard conditions for a decade after I graduated. Why? Because it took that long to work hard in an industry in order to get to where the money was. Could I have asked Papa for money to live better? Sure! I didn’t, because that’s not the way he raised me. Daddy wasn’t “privileged” like me. He worked hard in his industry for over a decade before he could get to where the money was. His fortune was made, not inherited. Mine: the same. I’m not where he is, but I’m getting there and I’m doing it of my own volition and ambition. Money can’t buy that either.
There are lots of people out there like him. He was a Marine, then went into the private sector and used his intellect and insanely hard work to make a fortune. This, my friends, is the American Dream and it only requires two things:
Hard work
Determination
All other excuses are just that.
I just love this site!
Thank you, sir!
And thanks for your perspective. Very interesting. I do not begrudge you or your father for his wealth. Quite the contrary. I'd like to think that if I work smart and properly apply myself, I'd get a chance at that myself so that one day, my offspring may benefit. Kudos to your father for his success, and to you for your academic and professional success.
However, I still had to study. Money doesn’t buy achievement. Period.
Exactly.
Three simple rules....If you break them you are almost certainly doomed to a life of poverty.
1. Graduate High school.
2. Don't have children until you are married.
3. Don't get married until age 20 or later.
As far as the offspring of military personnel getting medical care, that helps a bit to make up for the low pay they receive. And their health benefits are no better than anyone working for a civilian company. Also, far too often, Mom, Dad or both are on the other side the the planet. That was a low blow statement Dana.
Three simple points, yes, but those points are as brilliant as they are simple (and common sense).
And just what the heck would you know about military health bennies, Lee? It's not like you have 3+ decades of experience or anything! Oh wait...yeah, you do.
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