Cheese and Crackers: Comments
I hate to see a potential innocent die, but you are correct. This man did not listen to the police when they asked him to stop. In this situation one must shoot first.
Getting away from the fact that the guy was a COMPLETE innocent, a Brazilian electrician who had NOTHING to do with terrorism, how is this not EXACTLY what we're fighting against.
The terrorists ARE winning, regardless of what people want to believe. We are staunching the freedom of speech (If you are against the war, you're a traitor and against America.), freedom from unlawful search and seizure (I'll take one PATRIOT Act to go, quickly.), now we're advocating a complete lack of due process.
That all being said, this is a PARTICULARLY ridiculous case. The dude had been FLATTENED by like six bobbies. He was ON THE GROUND. They couldn't pin his arms and roll him over? I would think, if he was going to blow himself up, just after he jumped the turnstiles would've been the time to do it. They put FIVE shots in the BACK of his head.
The terrorists ARE winning. No one wants to deal with this fact, but the "freedom" we're allegedly trying to protect isn't being protected here at home. We're hemmoraging money, people are being kept in fear by their government and we are losing or trading our rights at a sickening clip. They may not be taking over the government, but you know what, maybe they don't actually have to. It looks like the mountain is going to come to Muhammed.
Uh, how exactly are we losing our rights? To what concentration camps are we marching off thousands of Muslims? And this might be a surprise to you, denimjacket, but when you claim that you are against the war, and other people say that you're un-American for saying so, that isn't the loss of freedom of speech. That's the healthy give-and-take of a free society. People have the right to disagree with you, you know. Or, do you think that Leftists must never be challenged? Point out to me where Bush, Rove, or any other GOP boogeyman has said that people who disagree with the Iraq war are un-American, or must be arrested, and I'll agree with your premise that we're losing our freedoms. The only problem for you is that you can't, because it's never happened. Life sucks when not everyone agrees with you, doesn't it?
As for the London shooting, the guy was wearing a long, bulky coat in midsummer, he ran when they told him to stop, and he vaulted over turnstiles going to the area that had just been bombed the day before. Now, if you're a cop that can read minds, well, go on over to London because they need you. If you're not, don't second guess the police who are trying to protect innocent lives.
See how easy it is? Let the big boys play in the sandbox now. They have a far better idea of what to do than you.
ok, let's start from the bottom, since that's where the most ridiculous parts of this are.
First, you have no idea what I do for a living, nor where I do it, nor how much training and education I have had in this particular realm. Also, your language is part of the reason that kneejerk conservatives like yourself tend to have COMPLETELY untenable points. You see this as a black and white situation, "see how how easy..." "Let the big boys play.." this isn't a game dude. This is an INCREDIBLY complex group of situations that are linked not only amoung contemporary countries but throughout time as well. This will NEVER be easy.
Second, do you know what a fleeing felon law is? You don't shoot a guy in the back. Also, harkening back to the thing about complexity, guess what, you're just outright wrong:
""He used a travel card," she said. "He had no bulky jacket, he was wearing a jeans jacket. But even if he was wearing a bulky jacket that wouldn't be an excuse to kill him.""
That is a family member of the guy who was shot, from British papers. Again though, even if he DID "vault" a turnstile and if he WERE wearing a "bulky jacket" HE WAS ON THE GROUND WHEN THEY SHOT HIM. THEY HAD CAPTURED HIM.
Third, "If you're not, don't second guess..." is the stupidest thing to come out of this entire "war on terrorism". Guess what, again, free speech. I get to second guess people. Not only that, but people who make mistakes SHOULD be second guessed, so those mistakes aren't replicated.
Fourth, everyone does not disagree with me. Let's see, the President's approval rating is headed toward the 30's and 58 percent of those polled believe the US will NOT EVER put a stable government in Iraq. So, again, you're wrong.
Fifth, so let me get this straight. The ONLY freedom you believe is important is the rarely quoted Twelveteenth Amendment: "The GOP shall not call people Unamerican."
That is the ONLY thing that would convince you that we were losing our rights. Not the Patriot act ok'ing searches without a warrant. Not the fact that pictures taken of sodomizing attacks and rapes at Abu Ghirab, subject to FOIA requests, are being withheld. Not that our government is operating as far away from "sunshine laws" as humanly possible? The ONLY thing that convinces you that we're losing our rights is the GOP calling people names? Perhaps we DO need to reinstitute Civics as a high school class.
Finally, the beginning of your note.
A> I never said we were taking Muslims to camps. You don't start taking peoples rights away with the big things. You start small. The Nazis didn't take the Jews to camps immediately. They started by telling people that it was the Jews fault that the German economy was in the shitter, and that they lost WWI. They called them unpatriotic and said they were treasonous. Like Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter, the Nazis made their enemies the scapegoats, wet-nursed into a nation yearning for something to blame, fearful of their future and angry about a bitter past. Germans didn't lose all their rights in 1933. They just started down that road.
B> Again, in the first paragraph, you are wrong. Free "give and take" is my saying why I'm against the war and my opponents agreeing that I have the right to say that, but that I am wrong, then giving their reasons. Saying "you're un-american for having these opinions" is not give and take, it is not dialogue nor debate. It is, quite simply, a personal attack on the patriotism of what, in more halcyon days, was called "The loyal opposition." Calling me un-american is calling me a traitor. You had better have some factual basis for that, becuase that's pretty much the textbook definition of slander and libel.
Your entire argument is based on responding to questions not aasked, suppositions not made and points not contested. The terrorists ARE getting what they want, because our leadership is not fighting the war it should be fighting. We had OBL and we lost him. We had the chance to do Iraq right and, instead, we have turned a land which intelligence indicated had little to no terrorist training occuring into the largest terrorist training ground in the world. We are losing this war, because people like you don't want to hear that we are. Like Bob McNamara forty years ago, you know, beyond a doubt that your way is the right way. I'm sure Donald Rumsfeld's book will be just as good a seller as McNamara's has been.
Wow, take a deep breath. Quick, before the GOP come and take you away!
1)No. I don't know what you do for a living. Why don't you let me know? Are you a cop? Do YOU have any training in law enforcement? Do YOU have any idea what a complex job it is to decide in a matter of seconds whether or not a FLEEING MAN who has ignored directions to STOP is a suicide bomber? Besides, even if they had him on the ground, if he WAS a suicide bomber, all he'd have to do is press a button and presto, another terrorist attack. So, yeah, the cops did the right thing, no matter how it hurts your sensitivity. We're in a WAR, and our enemies don't care about how many innocents they kill.
2) You said, "You don't shoot a guy in the back." Uh, according to news reports, and yourself, they DIDN'T SHOOT HIM IN THE BACK. A little consistency, please. He was wrestling on the ground with the police, AFTER he had run when they told him to stop, AFTER he had vaulted over turnstiles into an area that had just been bombed the day before, and, oh yeah, it was a life or death decision for the police, not only for themselves, but for everyone around them. If you truly were a cop, you wouldn't be so uptight about this. But leftists are always good at second guessing the police.
3) No, you don't get to second guess the police. What you're trying to do is put the blame on the cops, when you obviously weren't there, when you are obviously not a cop, and you obviously have no idea what kind of training these guys have. There's a difference between having an opinion, and having an informed opinion. You have the former.
4)I'm still trying to understand your point here. What poll says that "58% don't believe that the US will NOT EVER put a stable gov't in Iraq"? So freaking what? What matters is whether or not the IRAQIS put a stable government in Iraq. You say not everyone agrees with you. No doubt. How again am I wrong?
5)This is the most ass-backwards thing in your entire love note. It makes no sense. "The GOP shall not call people unamerican"? WTF? The GOP calling people unamerican is not the only thing that would convince me that we're losing our rights, but to the libs, ANYONE saying they're unamerican is the FIRST thing that convinces them. Still, you didn't answer my question, what GOP boogeyman has said that if you question what Bush is doing, you're unamerican? Show it to me! Show me where the government is forcing people to not speak their minds! For Christ's sake, Tim Robbins gets up in front of the NATIONAL PRESS CLUB to tell the world how he's being oppressed! People would DIE to be oppressed like he is, or like you are.
Also, how do you know that the withheld photos at Abu Ghraib show rape and sodomy? Did you read that at Daily Kos, or the Democratic Underground? Let me tell you, the whisperings out of the fever swamps on the left do NOT constitute proof.
Ahh, finally...
A)The old "Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter" argument. I see these two have taken over Rush Limbaugh's spot as "most hated person(s) on the left".
I know you never said that we're shipping Muslims off to the camps. But then you turn right around and say that we're about to do just that. That's called "moving the goalposts", and it's a trick that would get you kicked out of a junior high debate team. And please don't try to compare the US to Nazi Germany. There is no comparison. The Patriot Act just makes it easier for our law enforcement agencies to share info, and treats terrorists like they were the mob, i.e. the RICO laws. As for the FBI poking into library records, or whatever other fevered imaginings you think they're doing to you, I think you'll be OK.
B)Sigh. There you go, putting words in my mouth. WHEN DID I SAY YOU WERE UNAMERICAN? When did I accuse you of treason? Did I call you a Benedict Arnold? No! As for other people, they have the right to call you unamerican, because that's what the First Amendment is all about! Yeah, we need civics classes. To teach every liberal who has a hair up his ass about the true meaning of our founding documents.
As for the rest of you post, there is really nothing more I can say, other than if you think that Iraq under Saddam wasn't a terrorist training ground, then everything else you say is worthless. It is stated fact that Saddam trained terrorists. Abu Nidal and Zarqawi called Baghdad home. But these are inconvienent facts for the Left. Hard to wrap your head around the fact that you're on the wrong side of history.
Worked up huh......as for the innocent brazilian....he chose to run in the wrong place @ the wrong time in history...not easy for anyone but it's a war and split second decisions need to be made...
Had the police done nothing and this guy set off a bomb what an ass shredding the cops would be getting...he ran into the subway for christ sake, while cops were telling him to stop
OK, I'm not even going to get into the shit the Kool-Aid man came with up there. Talking about ME moving the goalposts in that rambling bag of fertilizer is retarded.
However, again, regarding the Brazilian, this isn't second guessing reasonable procedure. This is a DIRECT quote from an article on the incident:
"Inside the car, police officers seized de Menezes and then shot him five times at close range, a witness said. "
Again, THEY HAD HIM IN CUSTODY. THEY SHOT HIM IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD WHILE HE WAS LYING ON HIS STOMACH.
Police are taught very specific ways to detain suspects, in a manner that their hands are rendered useless. Roll him over. It is not second guessing to say that the dude had time, before he was pinned, to explode any potential bomb. The cops, likewise had the ability, in the time it took to SHOOT THE DUDE FIVE TIMES WHILE HE WAS PINNED, to see if he was carrying a bomb.
Also, we won't even get into the fact that ONE person says he jumped the turnstiles. ONE. It isn't a cop either, it's just some dumbass bystander. The guy more than likely went through the turnstiles in a dark, noisy tube station, got on a train, which BTW, HE WAS ALREADY ON THE TRAIN, and then got capped in the back of the head.
" de Menezes who was ...mistaken as South Asian"
Want a reason not to profile? Stupid people who don't know the difference between a South American and a Pakistani. You can't catch what you're too blind to see.
"Police are taught very specific ways to detain suspects, in a manner that their hands are rendered useless. Roll him over. It is not second guessing to say that the dude had time, before he was pinned, to explode any potential bomb. The cops, likewise had the ability, in the time it took to SHOOT THE DUDE FIVE TIMES WHILE HE WAS PINNED, to see if he was carrying a bomb."
If you thought the guy had a bomb under his jacket (which was a very reasonable thought at the time) would you try to wrestle his hands away from him so he can't push a button and detonate, or just shoot him (since they had orders to shoot to kill)?
Keep in mind that while trying to get his hands into a position in which he can't denote, and thus you have control over his hands, you have to make sure that he doesn't have the button in his palm and that none of his fingers twitch or move so as to push the button. Just one bump and boom. I would have done what the cops did. The moron shouldn't have run when they told him to stop. If a cop tells me to stop, I sure as hell am not going to take off running; there is no better way to make a cop suspect you than to run from them.
For all they knew at the moment, he could have had a bomb and was trying to kill a bunch of innocent people. The cops were simply doing their job, protecting the public. It is unfortunate that the guy turned out to not be a terrorist but that doesn't mean the cops should get in trouble.
It annoys me that every time cops screw up, people like you jump all over them and want them put in jail or whatnot. You expect them to never make a mistake yet at the same time you tie their hands behind their backs.
I have to agree with CYOUINCOURT007, had this guy set off a bomb, the police would have been in big trouble. They too are human beings who were placed between a rock & a hard place.
So, ITV from England brings us the truth.
The electrician was wearing a light denim jacket, not a padded one.
He had paid, he didn't jump a turnstile.
He picked up a newspaper and slowly walked to the platform.
He was running to catch a train. Officers DID NOT SPEAK TO HIM AT ALL. THEY SIMPLY SHOT HIM.
He was SITTING DOWN when he was apprehended.
He was pinned down, arms to his side, on his seat, COMPLETELY incapacitated
and then he was shot five times in the face and twice in the chest.
This is not second guessing. This is WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. This isn't what could've happened, this isn't what should've happened. This is WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
Police did not have an identification of him as a terrorist. They had no reason to suspect him, THEY SHOT A COMMUTER. They shot a dude who was EXACTLY like me several weeks ago when I visited Washington. Am I going to need to be in fear for my life now?
This is what I was talking about, when I was talking about a loss of freedoms. The terrorists ARE winning, because we are changing our lifestyles drastically, in a way that no one WANTS, but people seem to think we need.
This, again, is not second-guessing officers. We KNOW what happened. This isn't saying a manager shouldn't have called for a steal in a close game. This is saying that the manager didn't even field a team.
Just saw something new in the blog world: http://fds.weblogs.us/2005/08/19...ican-hiroshima/
... Interesting book; but can't be true. I mean ... can it?
This could very easily be true. Tactical nukes are extremely small (they can be as small as a 105mm artillery shell) and are AT LEAST as powerful as the Hiroshima bomb.
Less than 20 percent of cargo containers (I think the number was like 16 percent or so) are searched entering American ports. With the Coast Guard, Navy and all the Reserves and Guard over in Iraq, it's virtually impossible to have an effective deterrent to this manner of smuggling.
now we know what happened.
will it change any of your minds?
Yeah, that's a great idea. The police screw up and shoot an innocent and this guy thinks gun toting citizns are the answer. Geez.
Nothing is free my friend.
Program on the emergence of civilization.
"14 species of large animals capable of domesitcation in the history of mankind.
13 from Europe, Asia and northern Africa.
None from the sub-Saharan African continent. "
Favor.
And disfavor.
They point out Africans’ failed attempts to domesticate the elephant and zebra, the latter being an animal they illustrate that had utmost importance for it's applicability in transformation from a hunting/gathering to agrarian-based civilization.
The roots of racism are not of this earth.
Austrailia, aboriginals:::No domesticable animals.
The North American continent had none. Now 99% of that population is gone.
AIDS in Africa.
Organizational Heirarchy/Levels of positioning.
Heirarchical order, from top to bottom:
1. MUCK - perhaps have experienced multiple universal contractions (have seen multiple big bangs), creator of the artificial intelligence humans ignorantly refer to as "god"
2. Perhaps some mid-level alien management
3. Evil/disfavored aliens - runs day-to-day operations here and perhaps elsewhere
Terrestrial management/positioning:
4. Chinese/egyptians - this may be separated into the eastern and western worlds
5. Romans -
6. Mafia - the real-world 20th century interface that constantly turns over generationally so as to reinforce the widely-held notion of mortality
7. Jews, corporation, women, politician - Evidence exisits to suggest mafia management over all these groups.
Movies foreshadowing catastrophy
1985 James Bond View to a Kill 1989 San Francisco Loma Prieta earthquake.
Our society gives clues to the system in place. We all have heard the saying "He has more money than god." There is also an episode of the Simpsons where god meets Homer and says "I'm too old and rich for this."
This is the system on earth because this is the system everywhere.
I don't want to suggest the upper eschelons are evil and good is the fringe.
But they have made it abundantly clear that doing business with evil (disfavored) won't help people. They say only good would have the ear, since evil is struggling for survival, and therefore only the favored could help.
The clues are there which companies are favored and which are disfavored, but they conceal it very hard because it is so crucial.
I offer an example of historical proportions:::
People point to Walmart and cry "anti-union".
Unions enable disfavored people to live satisfactorly without addressing their disfavor. This way their family's problems are never resolved. Without the union they would have to accept the heirarchy, their own inferiority.
Unions serve to empower.
Walmart is anti-union because they are good. They try to help people address and resolve their problems by creating an enviornment where there are fewer hurdles.
Media ridicule and lawsuits are creations to reinforce people's belief that Walmart is evil in a subsegment of the indistry dominated by the middle and lower classes.
Low-cost disfavored Chinese labor is utilized by corporate america to maximize margins. They all do it. Only WalMart gets fingered because they are the ones who help, and those who seek to create confusion in the marketplace want to eliminate the vast middle class who have a real chance and instead stick with lower classes who may not work otherwise. So they dirty him up while allowing the others to appear clean.
The middle class is being deceived. They are being misled into the unfavored, and subsequently will have no assistance from their purchases with corporate america.
I believe the coining of the term "Uncle Sam" was a clue alluding to just this::Sam Walton and WalMart is one of few saviors of the peasant class.
Amercia is a country of castoffs, rejects. Italy sent its criminals, malcontents.
Between the thrones, the klans and kindred, they "decided" who they didn't want and acted, creating discontent and/or starvation.
The u.s. is full of disfavored rejects. It is the reason for the myriad of problems not found in European countries. As far as the Rockafellers and other industrialists of the 19th century go, I suspect these aren't their real names. I suspect they were chosen to go and head this new empire.
Royalty is the right way to organize a society. Dictatorships and monarchies are a reflection of the antient's hierarchical organization.
Positions go to those who have favor with the rulers, as opposed to being elected.
Elections bring a false sense of how the world is. Democracy misleads people.
Which is why the disfavored rejects were sent to the shores of America::To keep them on the wrong path.
Jews maim the body formed in the image of "god", and inflicted circumsision upon all other white people, as well as the evil that is Jesus Christ.
I think about how Jews (were used to) created homosexuality among Slavics, retribution for the Holocaust.
Then I think of the Catholic Church and its troubles.
What connection is here between Jews and the Catholic church???
If it is their sinister motives that’s behind the evil that is Jesus Christ are they being used at all?
Perhaps it is them who are pulling strings.
Their centuries of slavery in Egypt proves their disfavor.
The Jew leaders decided to prey on the up-and-coming Europeans to try to fix their problems with the ruling elite, a recurring aspect of the elite's methodology.
Jesus Christ is a religious figure of evil. The seperatist churches formed so they could still capture the rest of the white people, keeping them worshipping the wrong god.
And now they do it to people of color, Latinos and Asians, after centuries of preying upon them.
Since Buddism doesn't recongnize a god, the calls are never heard, and Chinese representation is instead selected by the thrones.
Budda was the Asian's Jesus Christ::: bad for the people. "They came up at the same time for a reason."
Simpson's foreshadowing::Helloween IV special, Flanders is Satan. "Last one you ever suspect."
"You'll see lots of nuns where you're going:::hell!!!" St. Wigham, Helloween VI, missionary work, destroying cultures.
Over and over, the Simpsons was a source of education and enlightenment, a target of ridicule by the system which wishes to conceal its secrets.
I believe Islam is the one true religion, and those misled christians who attack "god"'s most favored people will pay dearly one day.
You know what I hate? Pop-up ads. I can understand ad banners, but pop-up ads? Don't punish your readers!
What a story,
That is plant, it is.
No more fear tactic Please. We don’t believe it. No More
The war on terror is a Myth. Yes A created myth.
Zarquawi is a plant and DOES NOT exist. OBL is dead. Yes dead.
Iraq is no longer a war but an illegal occupation.
Bush and Co, are going to jail. No wonder why the animal is crying so much lately. What a wimp. Republicans are gutless.
Security is for their pockets only.
End the occupation of Iraq! Now
We Free Americans have no fear. None bring it on Bush!
The real terrorist is in the white house, terrorizing law abiding US citizen.
No more fear, No more fear
Democrats please, you are the only ones left, my republican leaders have failed, I am sorry, forgive me, give us back our rights and constitution. Please I beg you.
Filibuster Alito, if it is what it takes to keep my beloved America.
Filibuster Alito, I beg you
and my wallet can't afford it also.
(A former republican up to the NSA spying sell out)
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