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Right on John.
When in 1970 I got initiated I did so in order to test the claim that meditating increased one's happiness and increased one's consciousness. I didn't join a group, I just learnt to meditate. I wasn't charged any initiation fee (even though I was taught officially, in Maharishi's own home). I was never pressured to buy anything from the organisation, even though I wanted to purchase the available books. When I returned to my own country, never pressured to make donations or to buy anything from the movement, to subscribe to anything or to go on courses. I was not dissuaded from carrying on my own chosen lifestyle nor coerced to adopt an alternate lifestyle. Nor was I expected to join into rituals nor was I even offered to. In short, I did not join a cult.
I have seen cults and really don't believe the TM movement was a cult, that is, until Maharishi introduced the TM-Sidhi program. Up until then it was a well-meaning charitable organisation of very well-meaning people.
So, whilst I hear you John when you say you spent $150,000 and 23 years on your involvement in a cult, I wonder that you were actually part of the process that CREATED the cult rather than a victim getting suckered in?
Good points Paul, although I think you were fortunate in the people you met in the movement.
I remember the early 70s and the "TM Movement" included a vast array of different views and opinions-many quite different from what became the official view. At the same time some "members" began to get more extreme. Diets became "purer" as did lifestyles. Certainly it was frowned upon when a group of us escaped for a quick pint in the pub during a weekend course. The leader seemed to be living on water and was not amused.
Then it began to be "not good" to read certain books and the alternative phrase "it would be good" began to dominate.
In other words the seeds of a cult were there early on,before the siddhis.
I personaly mentally left TM when as teachers we were summoned to an"urgent" meeting with M in Holland(?).
When there we were informed that unless our hair was a certain length we would not be admitted to lectures.
I cut my own hair with a pair of nail scissors. Alaistair Campbell,author of "The Seven States of Consciouness" was refused admission because his hair was too long.
Getting a little bored after a couple of hours as M droned on I tried to leave but was stopped by heavies who informed me that M hadn't finished yet and that "it would be good" if we stayed.
I agree the TM movement was full of great people, but unfortunately M's urge to control and to ensure the "purity" of the system led to many problems....( I remember Bevan Morris insisting that,in the checking notes, we were to ask "how it is?" because that was wht M had said !).
The book "Call no Man Master" by Joyce Collin-Smith discusses the very early days of the Movement and how, in her opinion, M changed as time went on.
John Nickson
'I wonder that you were actually part of the process that CREATED the cult rather than a victim getting suckered in?'
I think that we are always both, part of the process and a victim of it, and that this is inescapable no matter how much mental distance we develop in order to preserve our image of ourselves as 'smarter than that and with clean hands.'
And I believe that the seeds of a cult are present in every system or organisation, simply because it has become codified as a system or an organisation.
The problem lies in the reification of ideas as things, or mistaking the image for reality; as thinking humans that is, to some extent, inescapable.
Not a very comforting view but I was born into a cult and have spent my life struggling to avoid such traps. I prefer an uncomfortable and insecure view to the false comfort of someone elses certainty.
Helen,
Thank you! Yes, I agree that any organized social structure has potential seeds for cult-like behaviors.
True cult behavior exists when manipulation and deceit become the norm so that one party benefits at the expense of another(s).
This can occur within a religious cult, political system, work, social or family environment.
g 
(Sorry, for cut off)
Likewise, I prefer to live with the honest ambiguity of being a loner, than accept another's certainty. Probably to a fault.
It's red flag for me when anyone expresses themselves with arrogant certainty.
After TM upbringing and early adulthood, my susceptibility manifested through a relationship that proved disastrous for my children and myself. Live and learn!
Such painful experiences can become catalysts for growth, if we so choose.
Helen,
Thank you! Yes, I agree that any organized social structure has potential seeds for cult-like behaviors.
True cult behavior exists when manipulation and deceit become the norm so that one party benefits at the expense of another(s).
This can occur within a religious cult, political system, work, social or family environment.
g
I remember the early 70s and the "TM Movement" included a vast array of different views and opinions-many quite different from what became the official view. At the same time some "members" began to get more extreme. Diets became "purer" as did lifestyles. Certainly it was frowned >>upon when a group of us escaped for a quick pint in the pub during a weekend course. The leader seemed to be living on water and was not amused.
Then it began to be "not good" to read certain books and the alternative phrase "it would be good" began to dominate.
In other words the seeds of a cult were there early on,before the siddhis.
For me,the big shock was the difference between the two shorter courses I had been to, Poland Springs and Humboldt, and the long course in Majorca. The earlier courses, for newcomers, were just a further exploration of the spiritual possibilities newly available (in the sense of being accessible) to Westerners. Just about all of us had gotten there via this path: hippydom, music, recreational drugs. The earlier courses were a blast. Yes, there was nude skinnydipping, there was sex and I imagine there were drugs as well. There was no discussion about celibacy or cutting hair. By Majorca, a different picture emerged, and the 'straight' model, including being celibate, cutting of hair, was put forward as desirable. There was a dramatic Q&A where someone confronted MMY about his disparagement of hippies, as if they were 'niggers' (the questioner's words). The questioner reminded MMY that most of his followers had started out from there, and that 'straight' people had no interest in TM. What I suspect is that the TMO was like this all along, just as the excellent film about cults on YouTube says...that the org is like an onion, and the more toxic, controlling aspects become evident as you get closer in. Or its possible that the TMO was changing and becoming more conservative. I don't know. But for me, being only 19, I was pretty sure that this was a step backwards in my own life. I wasn't ready to give up the fun of those exciting, inclusionary times for some notion of pie in the sky. The people in the TMO seemed boring, limited, joyless, and very very self-centered ("one-pointed") about their spiritual progress. It was no longer a good fit for me, and after I left Majorca, I meditated for about a year on my own, and apart from an introductory lecture on the siddhis in 1982, had no contact with the TMO, and had no contact with anyone connected with TM til now, 37 years later. I admit I was surprised and disappointed when I read about all the scandals connected with MMY and the TMO on the net. As loony as MMY was, with his ideas of world domination, I thought at least he had integrity. For some reason,the hypocrisy of his sexual peccadilloes at Majorca really bothered me. I hadnt been personally affected by the money thing, as my initiation was only $35, and the cost of the residence courses was actually very reasonable for the standard. I will say that I do feel a huge sense of betrayal by MMY and am trying to process that.
Knapp I'm curious did the grades improve?
With regards to haircuts and conservatism... Whilst I am a long hair (I even resented my very first haircut at age 4/5!!) and a leftist, I don't think these issues are exclusive to cults, I remember my school having the same issues. But yes, the cultism did start earlier, and it did start from within the folds of the 'onion', but it didn't ensnare, entrap and pressurise. I worked for the organisation here in Britain for six months at their head office and saw a lot of comings and goings, and the dawn of SCI and the World Plan, but did not witness cultism even in a seed form then. On an individual level though, I noticed some people cajoling one to do things Maharishi's way, 'Maharshi doesn't like the colour black', 'Maharshi would like meditators to look smart' etc. etc. But no big deal, not exactly like the Radha Krishna Temple, wearing orange robes and begging on Oxford Street. I met a lot of very pleasant people who were meditators.
There is still this tendency amongst some on TMfree to diss TM because of the TMorganisation.
My wife Kathy is such a good example of someone who has meditated regularly year after year, has little or no interest in what Maharishi has had to say, zero interest in the TM organisation, but values 'having a sitdown', using meditation as a 'circuit-breaker'.
Well said, Paul. I do tend to agree with the onion thing with the TMO-- I worked for them twice for 2 years total, but was not a teacher, so after I earned my siddhis techniques, I left.
At that time, late 70s/early 80s, the whole conformity thing had taken place in the TMO- Cheap suits, bad haircuts, and "it would be good if...". The "Governors" were seen as innately superior to the "Citizens of the Age of Enlightenment". I bought into the whole mindset for awhile.
Fortunately I was in rural settings both times, so if the attitude started to get to me, I'd just go for a walk. Overall a good experience, though glad I decided not to go any further integrating myself with the Movement.
These comments link to"How Could I Believe Such Stupid Stuff?" posted on 10/13/2009 by John Knapp.
I just thought of another reason why I believed such stupid stuff. I was never very good in science or math. Acting, dancing, music, art, English, psychology, sociology, history, Spanish -- I was great in those. But I felt in over my head in science and math. I didn't read the academic journals in those fields, and I wouldn't have been able to follow them with ease if I did.
And then along comes the TM movement telling me that they have scientific proofs, and they flatter me by telling me all about the experiments and acting as if they believe I can understand the high-falutin language and the concepts of the research. It was flattering, and it made me feel important, and it made me want to believe what they taught. They were saying that I was special, that I understood cutting edge science.
There are only good cults and bad cults. There is no such thing as a totally democratic org. What kind of an org would that even be and why would one join one, if it existed? Every org has principles, enforced to some degree or other. The world of s-t demands such concessions, which ultimately overwhelm whatever idea there was in the first place. the ego cannot bear a vacuum, and freedom is such. The human condition is to blame for all this. Look at one's own life. Now try to organize thousands of different people, just like you but different, into a functioning unit. How comfortable are you with the idea that any idea you have of God is wrong. Yet, you want to persist believing. In the face of fear, it is extremely difficult to not concretize and believe something. If there were no fear... but there IS fear, Timmy. Even Buddha said that if women are admitted the sangha would be corrupted much sooner. If you look deeply it is all rather a desperate affair, I am sorry to say. toodles.
All this said, Suzanne Seagal's 'Collision With the Infinite' and the follow up discussion describing her belated recognition that she'd been molested, and her early death from a brain tumor, and the hints that she tragically delayed getting a western medical exam..her book should be added to the literature on TM. And to me, the take home lesson is that no matter how exalted one's state of realization, no matter what a source of prestige that state be be for you..please get a medical work up, just in case you are ailing from a dangerous medical condition that is treatable if diagnosed early.
An unrecognized hazard of hanging out on the seeker's circuit is the high probability that one may be socialized to avoid/distrust western medicine and get care from alternative practitioners who may be helpful in many ways, but not equipped to catch early stage neurological conditions or tumors.
It haunts me that, according to Bodian, Segal was dizzy, having trouble standing up, difficulty holding a pen, and the chiropractor she consulted had to, in Steve Bodian's words, *urge* her to go to the hospital.
Tragedy is, her supposed enightenment, gave her prestige and a place in a social network where there was more of a tendency to consult health care providers who thought in terms of prescribing hormones and supplements for depleted energy, rather than insisting on a full medical and neurological workup.
If I had had a 'bus collision' loss-of self episode, I'd have begged to be worked up to rule out stroke or some other neurological catastrophe. Only after having these ruled out would I have then done the guru round.
A psychiatrist I consulted for depression took my history of stress seriously, but also ordered blood tests to rule out anemia and thyroid malfunction.
Its strange that types that value nondual states of mind are reluctant to rule out physiological/medical causes (micro-stroke, hypomania, bipolar, viral encephalitis, MS, brain tumor) before considering they've had some sort of samadhi state.
Yeah, we all start out looking for the Answer, and then we get tired of standing around waiting for it...
Brahmachari Nand Ki Shore seems to be seated in the middle point of the movement.
Has the man left Germany and found his way to Vlodrop, after so many months?
AK shared:
All this said, Suzanne Seagal's 'Collision With the Infinite' and the follow up discussion describing her belated recognition that she'd been molested, and her early death from a brain tumor, and the hints that she tragically delayed getting a western medical exam..her book should be added to the literature on TM. And to me, the take home lesson is that no matter how exalted one's state of realization, no matter what a source of prestige that state be be for you..please get a medical work up, just in case you are ailing from a dangerous medical condition that is treatable if diagnosed early.
I find this wonderful and wise advice.
I had previously listened to gatherings of the "TM enlightened" in Fairfield praise her wonderful enlightenment. So I've listened to your insights with great interest.
One of the peculiar dangers of the TM way-of-seeing is the idea--merely the "idea"--that this is what enlightenment is: TC, CC, GC, UC/BC--this is not only a delusion and a presentation of a false path--but also, ultimately, a trap. A trap that we know and will simply recognize it when it comes or, even worse: project our imagined awakening drama onto every minor, insignificant element of a (truly) intro practice. Self-fulfilling prophecies from new, phony prophets.
Even at the level of nondualistic realization beginning to dawn, there is the very real danger (IMO) that TMers will be pre-programmed to project final awakening or enlightenment onto a provisional enlightenment.
BTW AK, thanks for (ostensibly) recommending the "In Praise of Dependent Origination" teachings. I received the DVD today from the Gyuto Vajrayana Center and it is excellent. Were you able to attend the entire teaching?
He seems to address some of the objections you had previously expressed on other religions, right at the beginning.
A small example of what can happen to us:
A friend mentioned visiting a buddy of hers who had been in a coma and luckily recovered. He had contracted equine encephalitis from a mosquito bite. This was in the US, and the fellow lived in an area that was pastureland and where some residents had stables.
We have goodies such as Lyme Disease. They are finding that a particular retrovirus may play a role in development of Chronic Fatigue Disorder. (More research is needed to pursue this lead).
Our brains and bodies are complex. And Wren-Lewis noted how his breakthrough/merger was triggered by a medical crisis. Lewis was in Thailand and a robber slipped him a dose of poison hoping to incapacitate him.
We have the more recent report given by Bolte-Taylor of her awareness expansion that supervened following a stroke and she had the vast good fortune of her mother having both the financial and social means to shelter and care for her daughter during the long healing process.
So we have to rule out organic/medical causes if someone comes in reporting a breakthrough--they could be harboring a condition that is benign--or one that is potentially disabling or lethal but treatable if identified early.
The term used by medical practitioners is 'index of suspicion.'
Problem is, if an experience confers social prestige (eg an experience consensually labeled in some groups as no-self or non-dual realization), this could endanger a person if it causes them to enter a social scene where Western medicine is distrusted and no one thinks to suggest a work up to rule out encephalitis or stroke or cranial pressure from a developing tumor.
Vaj wrote something very, very interesting here. I edited it lightly so that it can be read and transferred to any quest project, not only to TMO.
"One of the peculiar dangers is the idea--merely the "idea"--that this is what enlightenment is: this is not only a delusion and a presentation of a false path--but also, ultimately, a trap. A trap that we know and will simply recognize ‘it’ when it comes or, even worse: project *our imagined awakening drama* onto every minor, insignificant element of a (truly) intro practice. Self-fulfilling prophecies from new, phony prophets.
'Even at the level of nondualistic realization beginning to dawn, there is the very real danger (IMO) that (the seeker) will be pre-programmed to project final awakening or enlightenment onto a provisional enlightenment."
Vaj spoke of 'our imagined awakening drama'.
Readers, here is some food for thought. Is it solely our imaginations that generate this expectation of what form our enlightenment will take?
To what extent is our imagination *colonized* without our knowing it, by movies we saw, comic books we read as little kids, stories we heard from older seekers, or books that are popular reading amongst seekers?
In the 1960s and 1970s, (please correct me if I am mistaken--or if additional items must be added) many were influenced by Autobiography of a Yogi, Castaneda's books, Paul Brunton, now forgotten, but whose Search for Secret India was once quite influential, Gurdjieff's 'Meetings With Extraordinary Men'.
As a kid I watched a TV cartoon series based on Isaac Asimovs sci fi novel Fantastic Voyage. One of the characters in the cartoon version is named The Guru, and he is a member of this otherwise all scientist crew because he is valued for his psychic abilities. The Fantastic Voyage series ran in (I think) the Late 60s early 1970s.
We may have thought we hit the road with Beginners Mind, but may have been unaware of the extent to which our minds and expectations had already been colonized, pre-formatted, with images and expectations that seeped in via media influences and social input we'd forgotten about.
To offer a vivid example, a friend of mine was nearly killed in a home invasion robbery 30 plus years ago.
A guy came into his house, armed with a revolver and my pal managed to catch hold of the man's weapon. They wrestled together, tumbling over each other, and eventualy my friend wrenched the revolver away, dumped out all the bullets, threw it out the window and screamed at the intruder to get out.
My friend said, 'They claim that when you're in danger of dying that your life flashes before your eyes.
'That didnt happen to me. Instead, every single image of a fight scene I'd ever seen from every TV show and every movie I ever watched, all came flashing through my minds eye like a deck of cards being shuffled.'
Hundreds, maybe thousands of images of fight scene images from long forgotten TV shows and movies blazed through my friend's conscious awareness under the ghastly ego shaking horror of facing his death in the black hole of a madman's pistol.
So...how many celebrated episodes of enlightenment upon which multimillion dollar empires have been built..how many of these could be composed of images assembled from books, talks, tapes, movies, childhood TV cartoons and comics long forgotten that suddenly blaze into view or unconsciosuly shape the preconditioned expectations we bring to The Quest without realizing it.
We think we know our causes and conditions but lots of it is hidden from view. It seems magical only because the connections are hidden from our conscious awareness, some from things we read and witnessed and forgot about.
Stuff we forget about can still affect our expectations of enlighetnment.
Then...we dont have Beginners Mind. We think we do, but we do not.
Exactly, AK, which is why the main instruction in dhyan is not to judge, analyze or make real any thought or experience related to meditation and experiences that come from it. I had a TM teacher friend who had a thief come into his home in the late 70's and surprise him. The thief paniced and shot my friend from a few feet away. The bullet bounced off his ribcage and did not otherwise hurt him. The FBI got interested and told my friend that from looking at the bullet they could tell it had been fired with normal velosity and should have killed him. Think of all the stories that were created around this experience in our local TM center.
>>One of the peculiar dangers is the idea--merely the "idea"--that this is what enlightenment is: this is not only a delusion and a presentation of a false path--but also, ultimately, a trap. A trap that we know and will simply recognize ‘it’ when it comes or, even worse: project *our imagined awakening drama* onto every minor, insignificant element of a (truly) intro practice. Self-fulfilling prophecies from new, phony prophets
That is why I am convinced that 'enlightenment' needs to be accompanied by some demonstrable super-normal abilities that are held up to scrutiny and testing.
That is why I am convinced that 'enlightenment' needs to be accompanied by some demonstrable super-normal abilities that are held up to scrutiny and testing.
::What type of super-normal abilities would prove enlightenment and which ones wouldn't?
>>What type of super-normal abilities would prove enlightenment and which ones wouldn't?
**HERE BE PERSONAL OPINIONS**
I think you could begin with the siddhis, and the whole range of super-normal abilities attributed to the Himalayan masters...being able to do without food, water or sleep; imperviousness to heat and cold, freedom from danger from snakes and wild animals.
Subjective feelings of bliss or oneness WITH the unverse are just feeling states. Drugs can induce these as well. Also advanced social skills, such as patience, tolerance, kindness, compassion, while certainly laudable and desirable, do not signify enlightenment in themselves.
Thank you for the reminder John. People often kick themselves too much for bad situations that happen to them while seeking and hoping for "something better". The truth is we that end up getting kicked around enough by those who proclaim they are "teachers" and "know what is best" for us, or by those who scam us for a buck, or those just wanting to fool us for sh*ts and giggles.
We're our own worst critics. Mistakes are learning experiences.
Whatever damage is done in a particular group is amplified after leaving it and being labeled a "snake", "shark" or a "goody two-shoes" if vocal about abuses. And of course it's always the victim's fault that they didn't get good "results" or were damaged by the experience with said group. After all, the teacher/group leader said we weren't trying hard enough, and/or we were "doin' it wrong", and most of the other members agreed. 
There is risk in any kind of exploration; spiritual and other. If we stop taking risks we stop growing as individuals. Speaking from experience, I think former cult members are particularly sensitive to criticism because our "teachers" indoctrinated us into believing it was our fault if a practice didn't work or if some abuses were "allowed" to happen. For some this leads back to our relationships with our parents or other authority figures and what went on there. I was groomed to be a caregiver from an early age so I think you can figure out where I'm coming from.
The key here (and it's something I've been grappling with for awhile) is to not close the door permanently to new experiences. After being scammed, this becomes an instinctive response.
Betty shared:
Exactly, AK, which is why the main instruction in dhyan is not to judge, analyze or make real any thought or experience related to meditation and experiences that come from it.
I think you make an important point Betty. In TM we were indoctrinated that part of the specialness of TM was that we just gently return to the mantra and not beat ourselves up about failing to hold the transcendent or judge what arises. Just return to the mantra. Easily. Take it easy!
And it turns out, this is common to most staged forms of meditation. The beginner cannot maintain the object of meditation, the transcendent in this case, and when one fails, rather than judging, one simply returns to the object (a mantra) in this case.
This process of the first stage of meditation is sometimes called "repairing", because you are repairing your inability to maintain the object. But it is just the first stage, as Patanjali points out meditation in his way is done in stages or bhumis. After the stage where we need to repair, we move on to another stage, and so on, if our teachers are wise enough to teach us this.
The only danger is when the process of "repairing" becomes enshrined as the be all and end all of dhyana.
Vaj, meditation really is a natural ability and recognizing our own self is also. The tradition that I practice in does not have elaborate or detailed teachings about technique. Whatever comes up we watch without analysis or judgment. If done with eyes open, any object simply watched without allowing the mind to engage or identify the object as something known and therefore owned, that physical object will change visually and disappear. I am not saying it ceases to exist as an object but as an object in the mind, it does. What remains is who I am or who some subtle individualized self imagines itself to be. There is caution about taking any experience too seriously because even vast expanses of Being may be only projections of imagination. Humility is very necessary, which was seriously lacking in the TMO from top to bottom. The only thing wrong with Maharishi was his lack of knowledge, lack of humility, grandiose pride, and greed for name, fame, and wealth. Other than than he was a great asset to me personally and to many others. I think I remember Maharishi saying, “It is the glory of those that run fast, that sometimes they fall.” If there is a God in some form or other, I pray that he take his foot off that old man's neck and let him rest in peace.
I think you could begin with the siddhis, and the whole range of super-normal abilities attributed to the Himalayan masters...being able to do without food, water or sleep; imperviousness to heat and cold, freedom from danger from snakes and wild animals.
::I thought the Wonderboy was noted for being impervious to cold, so didn't he meet your own criterion? HOw about sitting in meditation for many hours without moving? Or, being able to dry a wet blanket with one's own bodyheat?
Vaj, meditation really is a natural ability and recognizing our own self is also. The tradition that I practice in does not have elaborate or detailed teachings about technique. Whatever comes up we watch without analysis or judgment. If done with eyes open, any object simply watched without allowing the mind to engage or identify the object as something known and therefore owned, that physical object will change visually and disappear. I am not saying it ceases to exist as an object but as an object in the mind, it does. What remains is who I am or who some subtle individualized self imagines itself to be. There is caution about taking any experience too seriously because even vast expanses of Being may be only projections of imagination. Humility is very necessary, which was seriously lacking in the TMO from top to bottom. The only thing wrong with Maharishi was his lack of knowledge, lack of humility, grandiose pride, and greed for name, fame, and wealth. Other than than he was a great asset to me personally and to many others. I think I remember Maharishi saying, “It is the glory of those that run fast, that sometimes they fall.” If there is a God in some form or other, I pray that he take his foot off that old man's neck and let him rest in peace
::This post brings home to me the incalculable problematic that is the essence of why things fail. Because any objectification is somewhat off; because one cannot trust even one's expansive states, however true or real they may seem; because one does not really exist; because that is unacceptable; because it is extremely rare to be able to see that and become free; because this is a message which is radically unpopular and always has been (when was it widely accepted societally?); because the world is either totally godless or God did not set it up to work. There are zillions of spiritual books available to anyone now, and how much good has it really done, in the soul sense (not just intellectually)? Dare one ask? Then, we have to deal with the spindly allegedly flying guru, who only wants a million bucks to teach idiots secrets and get a funny hat. Maybe this is hell; what else would hell have to be to be worse?
>>The only thing wrong with Maharishi was his lack of knowledge, lack of humility, grandiose pride, and greed for name, fame, and wealth
What about his dishonesty and lack of integrity?
Oh yeah, I forgot about those particular faults. Thanks, Deborah!
Maybe this is hell; what else would hell have to be to be worse?
Anomalous
................
For me it would be much worse without my mate, my children, my puppy, the occasional piece of pie, and a shitty attitude balanced by a sense of humor.
Betty said:
Vaj, meditation really is a natural ability and recognizing our own self is also. The tradition that I practice in does not have elaborate or detailed teachings about technique. Whatever comes up we watch without analysis or judgment. If done with eyes open, any object simply watched without allowing the mind to engage or identify the object as something known and therefore owned, that physical object will change visually and disappear. I am not saying it ceases to exist as an object but as an object in the mind, it does. What remains is who I am or who some subtle individualized self imagines itself to be. There is caution about taking any experience too seriously because even vast expanses of Being may be only projections of imagination. Humility is very necessary, which was seriously lacking in the TMO from top to bottom. The only thing wrong with Maharishi was his lack of knowledge, lack of humility, grandiose pride, and greed for name, fame, and wealth. Other than than he was a great asset to me personally and to many others. I think I remember Maharishi saying, “It is the glory of those that run fast, that sometimes they fall.” If there is a God in some form or other, I pray that he take his foot off that old man's neck and let him rest in peace.
After close examination, I've not found a solid (or unsolid) "self" that exists. But I do appreciate you taking the time to share your perspective from your current meditation practice. Very interesting to me actually.
Regarding Maharishi, I guess my major problem is that people were damaged and/or died. I know some people will feel that is an exaggeration. I'd tend to agree with what Amma said (I'm not a follower of hers) about TM and Maharishi, leave the shit and take any gems that you found and move on. And that's just what I did.
Vaj said...I'd tend to agree with what Amma said (I'm not a follower of hers) about TM and Maharishi, leave the shit and take any gems that you found and move on.
............
I agree with that as well and hope that the thosands of TMers who listened to her will apply that same attitude toward Amma and escape her grip. Phony human gods really are a dime a dozen.
I am intrigued by Deborah's (and others') musings about how to tell when another person is enlightened. Living without eating or sleeping, flying, etc. - those are impressive abilities, but I was left thinking, "If a person has those abilities, so what?" No, I'm serious - so what? Is that the goal of life, to live without sleeping? Is that what God (or Whoever) wants for us, or considers the most exalted state a human can reach?
I'm not criticizing Deborah, rather I'm rethinking my whole former obsession with "enlightenment." I'm thinking that someone who gives food to a hungry person is more worthy of honor than someone who can fly through the air. I think that's a better way to spend your life than trying to become conscious of the Eternal Oneness. What do you-all think?
'I'm not criticizing Deborah, rather I'm rethinking my whole former obsession with "enlightenment." I'm thinking that someone who gives food to a hungry person is more worthy of honor than someone who can fly through the air. I think that's a better way to spend your life than trying to become conscious of the Eternal Oneness. What do you-all think?'
I completely agree, Laurie. Although as one who has suffered a number of obsessions at varying times, I recognise the futility of trying to consciously avoid such obsession, whatever the object.
People vary in their approach, for myself I find that I have to head right into the object of obsession and explore it patiently until it begins to dissipate. Many people would consider this misguided if not insane-- but it works for me and I find it has functional benefits in increasing tolerance of the strange obsessions of others as well as improved flexibility of mind.
I know my attitude on this is controversial. I don't expect consensus. But to me, there have to be some objective criteria, criteria that can be verified and not simulated by ordinary people.
'I know my attitude on this is controversial. I don't expect consensus. But to me, there have to be some objective criteria, criteria that can be verified and not simulated by ordinary people.'
You are asking for the impossible. You are asking for proof concerning the objective reality of a phenomenom of mind. There is nothing about the working of mind/consciousness that can be verified in the scientific way you request. If you start to look for mind it can't be found except as the looking, which is a subjective experience. The fact that it is a subjective experience does not invalidate the ability to look.
Which lays this whole area open to every snake-oil salesman going. It's more productive to look at beliefs and assumptions and how they are aquired and whether they have any objective validity and existence.
>>You are asking for proof concerning the objective reality of a phenomenom of mind.
I'm sorry if this offends you. I do think there are correlates between an elevated state of consciousness and super-normal abilities. I think anything else is just bullshit, of either the fraudulent or self-deluding variety. I've been around a very long time and I have lost my capacity for unquestioning belief.
They always begin with these so-called abilities. Jimmy Jones faked cures of followers. Muktananda and others exuded "shakti" which people felt, both of which were the kind of objective proof desired. Chimnoy lifted, or pretended so, enormous weights. If these individuals did not show some type of super-normal abilities they would not have had followers, would they?
The sages ALL warn against siddhis and their exhibition.
What about those like Rasputin, who seemed to have super-normal abilities, yet would not be considered to be enlightened?
I myself surrender daily to David Copperfield and Kreskin.
No. Jim Jones and Sri Chinmoy were fakers. Muktananda and others 'exuding shakti' is neither here nor there. As I told you, I felt unbounded bliss when I made eye contact with Keith Richards. Is he enlightened?
Exhibiting super-normal abilities is just the beginning, in my view. There has to be more, a lot more. But not less.
'I do think there are correlates between an elevated state of consciousness and super-normal abilities. I think anything else is just bullshit, of either the fraudulent or self-deluding variety. I've been around a very long time and I have lost my capacity for unquestioning belief.'
I am not offended and have never had a capacity for unquestioning belief. I would question your assumption that an elevated state of consciousness and super-normal abilities are possible at all, for anyone.
I, along with every other human, am unable to define what consciousness is; to then start building a hierarchy of lower and higher states of an undefinable concept strikes me as absurd.
Keith Richards is similar to a guru in that he is the object onto which followers project hopes, dreams, expectations and the power to enlighten with their gaze. He reflects all that back and the follower is dazzled by the glamour of the reflection. Apart from his reflection capacities which are a function of him being isolated on a stage as 'special', Keith is never more or less than an aging mortal man and a fine musician.
And, then, there's Ramana Maharshi, Amritanandamayi....
Well, you might think it's absurd, but if someone had insisted that MMY demonstrate the levitation technique that he was peddling at such exorbitant rates, his gravy train would have been derailed once and for all, and many thousands of people would have been spared disappointment, disillusionment and loss of money. It would have been abundantly clear to all that the emperor had no gorgeous new outfit on, but was stark naked in the middle of the public square.
(How I remember him chirping at us, 'Even a sick man may open a healthfood store!' Little did we know that he was referring to hinself.)
Oh, and furthermore, Keith Richards is a Golden God!!!!!
Interesting comments on supernormal abilities, and which masters were doing sleight of hand, and which were playing on people's projections; and are supernormal abilities enough to qualify one as enlightened. Where would people place Jesus? He turned water into wine, walked on water, raised the dead and healed the sick....So is that sufficient to qualify him as enlightened? Or a sidha? Or just a magician?
Hi Laurie, just over the last couple of days I raised a couple of emails on the subject of the word 'enlightenment' questioning how far back it came into popular parlance in TM circles. From your post you seem comfortable with this term, which surprises me since the word is a projection of a particular mindset, a true-believer TM mindset. I wonder why so many people have incorporated this word into their vocabulary? I guess it's similar with the word 'aliens', if we can imagine a state then we assume it must exist.
'Oh, and furthermore, Keith Richards is a Golden God!!!!!'
Absolutely in agreement there.
>>Where would people place Jesus? He turned water into wine, walked on water, raised the dead and healed the sick....So is that sufficient to qualify him as enlightened? Or a sidha? Or just a magician?
It's too far back in the mists of time to be considered credible. Also, healing the sick could be due to the placebo effect.
Jesus' magical powers could be every bit as much of a myth as Krisna having 8 arms and blue skin.
I saw a fascinating doco about alien abductions recently. The makers posited that bliblical accounts of angelic visitations, eg to Sarah and Mary, were in fact identical to modern tales of alien visits and sexual implantation.
Just to stir the pot, I visited an exhibition of Buddhist art and sculpture recently. The oldest known piece depicting the Buddha was an empty throne--a similar rationale I should imagine to the ban on depicting images of the prophet in Islam and the JudeoChristian admonition against the setting up of graven images. Seems our human tendency to mistake the representation, the image and the idol for reality was well-recognised and warned against in antiquity.
We have very creative and inventive brains; if something happens that does not fit into our known and understood reality we can't rest until we have come up with an explanation, rational or otherwise for it. I think the explanations change over time to assimilate new knowledge and understanding.
Which Shakespearean tragedy best exemplifies the plight of the lonesome seeker, so desperately longing for the unnameable, so misled by the greedy thieving bastardry? Would it be King Lear? which great literature explores, in other venues of course, this issue of the yearning of the human heart, for shores unknown, and its inevitable desecration by those-who-would-be-King?
Paul, I read about "enlightenment" when I was 16, by reading "The Autobiography of a Yogi," and so I believed it existed. That made it easier to believe the TM initiators when I was 19 when they said we could reach "enlightenment" ("cosmic consciousness.") I believed it for the 10 or so years I was in TM because we were told about it constantly in the TM movement, at Maharishi's lectures, etc. It's only as I continue to "deprogram" myself that I tend to believe in it less and less. However, it was part and parcel of the belief system of the TM movement brainwashing package, and they had effective brainwashing techniques.
About "enlightenment" in the public mind amongst English-speakers:
There was an initial surge of published writing in English about Buddhism, I seem to recall, starting in the 1880s. In 1906, a Japanese Zen Buddhist priest addressed the World Parliament of Religions. A Buddhist Lodge was founded in London in the late 1920s, I believe.
D.T. Suzuki's writings on Zen Buddhism started to be published (first in England and later in the U.S.) in the 1930s. Suzuki introduced the Japanese term satori meaning "understanding" [from the verb satoru, meaning "to grok" to completely or intuitively understand or have insight]. Suzuki also translated satori as "enlightenment".
I think Yogananda's book was first published around 1952.
Then came a growing interest in Zen on the part of an American intelligentsia, and eventually general readers, in the Post-War 1950s and '60s. And that further popularized the term satori, as well as some concept of enlightenment.
A lot of people were primed for MMY's lectures & writings.
Yes, a lot of people were primed to MMY's mentality, but the word 'enlightenment' (with all its connotations) was not being spoken of by Maharishi until when? About 1970 I guess.
I peeked at Yogananda's book a few years after I learned meditation, but because of its big talk about powers and higher states I thought it unsuitable to read then due to putting in a load of expectations. I did read it all later but I was left with the same feeling, that Yogananda was just raising expectations.
In meditation it is good not to have expectations, in fact it is paramount that one has no expectations.
(Talking of Keith Richard, didn't he and Mick Jagger pen 'No Expectations' around the time of the Rolling Stones' public involvement with TM?)
Helen wrote:
Just to stir the pot, I visited an exhibition of Buddhist art and sculpture recently. The oldest known piece depicting the Buddha was an empty throne--a similar rationale I should imagine to the ban on depicting images of the prophet in Islam and the JudeoChristian admonition against the setting up of graven images.
Helen that's much more likely a comment on the Buddhist insight on "no Self" on anatman.
Paul, you are so right about no expectations. Maharishi kept his donors and cheap work force going for decades using the expectation of enlightenment. I believed it. Just one more course, one more advanced technique. This term was already in use when I started. In literature there is the concept of "lie your way to the truth". I think that so many teachers like Maharishi and Yogananda may have wanted to do the same with spirituality. It works great as a motivator for the young or immature but is used now to fleece and enslave. I think that the quality of so called teachers can be judged in a number of ways. Three of the big ones are, do they charge for instruction? do they claim to be God/god or allow their students to claim it for them? do they use "big experiences" or the promise of instant enlightenment to draw crowds to their fly paper? If so, they are corrupt or on their way to being corrupt.
'Helen that's much more likely a comment on the Buddhist insight on "no Self" on anatman.'
Yes, but it was the first time I had seen it depicted that way. Apparently the usual statues and paintings of Guatama didn't appear for a further 300 years when trading with the Romans and Greeks introduced the notion of godly statuary. Which led me to thinking that a similar rationale could be behind the other religious bans--with the explanation now distorted and lost.
To the anomolous who wanted some literature you could try Moby Dick (Melville)which is a great quest allegory, Pilgrims Progress (Bunyon) and Dante writes some horrifying stuff if you like poetry in Paradise Lost. Wizard of Oz is a more mundane quest story.
The great quest is a staple of classical literature, Hero's Journey by Joseph Cambell is a comprehensive breakdown of this kind of enduring mythical theme.
>>Maharishi kept his donors and cheap work force going for decades using the expectation of enlightenment. I believed it. Just one more course, one more advanced technique.
The phenomenon of perseverence is well-known in psychology. Once people have invested time or resources, they are impelled to invest more, even when there is no advantage in doing so. An example would be an exam which must be completed in a given time period. People will persist with a difficult question past the allocated time, even though logically, their chances of a better mark are diminished by not moving on to the next question.
In life, knowing when to cut one's losses is paramunt.
Betty, I liked your comment about how to judge a teacher: "...Do they promise 'big experiences' or 'instant enlightenment'....?"
I had a very moving experience with this. After my years in the TM world fried my brains, and I finally sought the help of a psychologist, I asked him, "Can you make me as happy as I was in Fairfield?" (I used to bliss out in Fairfield.) He replied "No." I burst into tears. Why? Because he wasn't promising me the universe? No, because I was so relieved to have finally met a mentor who wasn't going to lie to me!
'In life, knowing when to cut one's losses is paramount.'
In some situations, I agree, but life is not a game at which anyone can win.
I became aware of the psychological need to justify my particular obsession and it was clear that there was an element of not wishing to admit to myself that I was chasing a chimera--so I was admitting to myself that I didn't really have much belief in this elusive superior state I was looking for.
It was a big turning point for me as it forced me to look at the real peripheral benefits I had aquired almost without noticing and realise that those benefits were immeasurably greater than any imagined elusive state might be.
That might also be a rationalisation, but it is a truer rationalisation than my previous one.
Besides, I started out on this as such an arrogant, stubborn and pig-headed individual so convinced of the superiority of my thoughts over anyone elses, that nothing at all except my own realisation would have stopped me pursuing my obsession--that after all is the nature of obsession.
So I can't honestly admit to much regret. I crashed and burned a few times but I'm still here, older and maybe wiser.
Anomolous, Joseph Conrad has a much more realistic take on the quest, less hero more darkside, in Heart of Darkness, the theme of which was the basis for the film 'Apocalypse Now.'
>>>'In life, knowing when to cut one's losses is paramount.'
To paraphrase my Texan colleague Dr Phil: we need to be evaluating our choices, asking ourselves, how's that working for you?
Paul said: I guess it's similar with the word 'aliens', if we can imagine a state then we assume it must exist.
Love the insight.
I would rate the expertise of Dr Phil, a consumate entertainer, on a par with that of McRishi.
>> I would rate the expertise of Dr Phil, a consumate entertainer, on a par with that of McRishi.
That's fine. But it doesn't negate the truth of that particular statement, that it's worthwhile to scrutinise our choices, continue with ones that support our goals and replace ones that are no longer serving us well.
'But it doesn't negate the truth of that particular statement, that it's worthwhile to scrutinise our choices, continue with ones that support our goals and replace ones that are no longer serving us well.'
The statement might be worthwhile to certain goal oriented individuals but it is not a need or a universal truth. The goal of the vast majority of humanity is just to get through the day with enough to eat to ensure survival tomorrow--that comes closer to a universal truth than all of Dr Phil's efforts at playing to the crowd and amassing the big bucks.
My own personal take on the quest, or life journey, or search for god, enlightenment or whatever empty signifier is currently in use, is that it arises from boredom.
Speaking for myself and with hindsight, I can see that whatever my personal problems, the real survival needs--adequate food, water and shelter--have always been quite easily available to me.
Humans are thinking animals, we are designed to struggle, on a knife edge, for survival and the chance to procreate just as every other animal does. When that struggle is taken care of, we are presented with the dilemma of how to fill the vast tracts of time that are left. In my case I constructed an impossible goal, knowing on some level that it was impossible to fulfil, as a carrot fixed firmly in front of my nose. As a distraction from boredom it is brilliant, as a lesson in the ability of humans to delude ourselves, it is endlessly hilarious.
I acknowledge that other peoples beliefs and concerns are of vast importance to them, so my hilarity is not directed at anyone else but myself. It is the best thing I have learned and the one thing that can set me off laughing at myself in any circumstance.
Well, H, of course it's up to you. Dr Phil is not the point. But it's fair to say that many here wouldn't have wasted large parts of their lives, plus resources that could have been better used elsewhere, if they had subjected their investment into TM to critical scrutiny, instead of just blindly carrying on.
One definition of insanity is doing the same things and expecting a different result.
Helen, I'm with you! My entire existence is concerned with gettin somethin fried to eat! Since turnin my focus one pontedly to that, I aint had the time or interest to waist myself on TM and related cult like activities! It's all about the cult o Chuck for me now and I find peacefullness in that there!
How else does anyone learn to develop critical scrutiny except by being scammed a few times and resolving to be a bit more alert to the scammers--who will always be with us in endless variety?
I am not making any apologies for the McRishi's fantasies and greed but there is very little point in saying how people should have behaved if those people had not yet developed the critical scrutiny to spot the old rogue's games, that's like expecting a toddler taking his first steps to run a marathon within a week.
People do what they do from the knowledge and experience that they have at the time and can't do otherwise. They learn best from suffering and deciding to do what they can about their own suffering. Berating themselves for not having the cynicism to see through a scammer doesn't help unless there is also a resolve to become a bit more savvy.
I think my next obsession might be with the Cult of the Fried Okra, I'm sure Chuck has some nifty moves I can learn from.
That's Chuck as in Chuckwagon, Helen!
Dear Helen....I don't seem to be communicating as well as I would like! No, there's no use crying over spilt milk. We can only deal with th present. But you appear to be denigrating the value of maintaining a vigilant, sharp and critical eye on the choices we make and in the process, effectively giving a free pass to hucksters and scammers of all stripes, religious and political, to name two, who prey on our trusting natures and unwillingness to think critically fr ourselves. How many times do we need to learn this lesson?
Laurie said...I burst into tears. Why? Because he wasn't promising me the universe? No, because I was so relieved to have finally met a mentor who wasn't going to lie to me!
.....................
I understand how you felt at that moment, Laurie. Thank you.
'But you appear to be denigrating the value of maintaining a vigilant, sharp and critical eye on the choices we make and in the process, effectively giving a free pass to hucksters and scammers of all stripes, religious and political, to name two, who prey on our trusting natures and unwillingness to think critically fr ourselves.'
Not at all. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
Besides, I cannot give a free pass to anyone, scammers are there aplenty and always will be--neither you nor I have any control over that. There will also never be a perfect world where we do not have to take responsibility to maintain eternal vigilance.
I think it will always be a problem. This essay asked, How could be be so stupid? The answer is, hungry people make poor shoppers.
'The answer is, hungry people make poor shoppers.'
Or: "I didn't know any better then but I sure do now"
It still amazes, confuses and saddens me. How did he get away with it for so long? How did he sell 'flying' for decades, without a shred of evidence?
Anomolous, The Shakespeare has to be Othello, the noble and courageous and loving Moor, completely undone by the manipulative schemer Iago, for no other reason than an all-consuming envy.
Anomolous, The Shakespeare has to be Othello, the noble and courageous and loving Moor, completely undone by the manipulative schemer Iago, for no other reason than an all-consuming envy.
helen | 10.23.09 - 8:18 pm | #
::Thanks, Helen. I knew someone out there would give a relevant response. Do you think it captures the heart of what goes on in such circles as TM and the others? I don't even know if we need a Shakespeare for this. If you look at certain protagonist gurus, who were almost ready for prime time, but who fell short, due to a tragic flaw...and then add the demise of so many open-hearted folk who forever long for the early, brief, good times...I don't know if even the Shake could add to that.
'...I don't know if even the Shake could add to that.'
I wasn't a Shakespeare fan at school because it was force-fed to us as 'good' literature, but he is such an acute observer of the human condition that I am a late convert. And its the same acute observation that makes him-and all the classics- still relevant. The human condition doesn't change no matter how technologically advanced we become.
I think McRishi was another acute observer who saw a gap in the market and decided to fill it, without thought to the devastation he would wreak in countless lives.
I don't think it possible to capture such a complex situation as a guru mesmerising thousands of followers in a single work of art, but I'm glad that plenty of people have shown parts of such a glamouring.
Not that we need the art-forms if we look at the trajectory of any tyrant in history. And McRishi qualifies as a tyrant in my book as his entire business plan rested on usurping his followers' natural good sense and implanting a false reality where he was the ultimate authority.
Some excellent observations, Helen.
Deborah wrote, "It still amazes, confuses and saddens me. How did he get away with it for so long? How did he sell 'flying' for decades, without a shred of evidence?"
Deborah, I was one who was taught "levitation" and never for a moment doubted that I really was in the first stage of flying! Did you ever learn the TM-Sidhis? There are a lot of interesting, and conflicting, memories about "flying" on this website. Like, some people knew from the first moment they learned it that the flying was a sham. And then others were like me. It really really felt like I was going against gravity without the use of muscles!
Everything I've read by non-Sidhas who have watched the "flying" shows that they believe they have merely watched gymnastic activity, not levitation. (Does anyone know of any non-Sidha who was favorably impressed with the demonstration of the "flying"?)
But for some of us who did it, oh my! Bliss! Ecstasy! Wild abandon! Experiences of God! etc. Lift off! Not only did we have impressive subjective experiences, but we were force-fed regular lectures on how this was really yogic flying, and at MIU we heard daily lectures on how our "flying" was affecting world peace, complete with pie charts and line graphs. Add peer pressure and an altered state of consciousness (reduced critical thinking), and it was very very easy to believe in flying.
Laurie,
Did anyone ask to see McRishi fly? Or any of the senior teachers? After five years, ten years, twenty years, thirty years? Shouldn't there have been a demonstration of the flying by then, do you think? Other than the preliminary hopping?
This video is a great reminder of how amazing the world is today and how we don't appreciate what we have. And it is hilarious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U...h?v=UN0MpBQG3-
E
Laurie, thanks for that reply. So you felt there was *some* effect, even though you were not levitating into the air. None of the videos I have ever seen of hopping have made me think for a moment that anyone was levitating. And I was thinking the same thing Anomalous expressed. Surely there must have been some new sidhas who realised that it didn't work. How did the class action suit come about? And why did people continue to sign up afterward?
Isnt' this still going on? Arent't the peace towers of invincibility dedicated to idiots trying to fly to raise the world consciousness and raise money for the geezers at the top of TM? I mean, we are not speaking strictly historically. What permits this? I wonder if this shit will still be going on a hundred years from now; some imbeciles still believing that mankind is getting ready for the flying to begin? That's the problem with fantasy. communism was tried an it failed. But, there seems to be no end to this queer project. And, not even one demonstration by the McRishi hisself. How he got around that is really something.
Deborah
"Also advanced social skills, such as patience, tolerance, kindness, compassion, while certainly laudable and desirable, do not signify enlightenment in themselves."
Patience, tolerance, kindness and compassion seem to me to be more than merely advanced social skills, more valued by me than something as mundane as being able to dry your own clothes with your body heat, even though that is scientifically verifiable. How is that skill of any service to one's fellow human being?
What is important to me is to use this lifetime to become the most loving person I can be. Becoming skillfully compassionate, kind, patient and tolerant would be to me a goal worthy of my lifetime. I would add to those desired qualities those of generosity, humility, honesty and love. If I can learn to embody those qualities then I would not give a hoot about enlightenment. It would be a bunch of hooey to me.
Some of my time spent with TM-sidhis and rounding took me off course of the quest for growth in those.
Now I am back in the muck of the world putting myself to the test every day in growing in these qualities. The moments of doing less than I could, of failing to manifest these qualities in situations, falling short, keeps me learning and by necessity being humble in self-honesty. Now this is a life worth living!
Kate
But...we're discussing how to rate a guru, to prevent being fooled again. There are a number of people who embody the qualities you mention, but they are not necessarily guru material.
Deborah, in my view, few people are looking for gurus, or even the means to test them. But fortunately criteria for measuring the fitness of a guru have already been recorded, one just needs to consult the relevant documents. A very good start would be to browse the comments made by Guru Dev on this subject contained in the various translations I have made:-
http://www.paulmason.info/gurude...dev/
gurudev.htm
"Laurie,
Did anyone ask to see McRishi fly? Or any of the senior teachers? After five years, ten years, twenty years, thirty years? Shouldn't there have been a demonstration of the flying by then, do you think? Other than the preliminary hopping?
Anomalous | 10.24.09 - 6:03 pm | # "
Hi, Anomalous,
I left the TM movement in 1981, but up til that time I don't recall any TMer asking to see Maharishi fly. There was a sort of unspoken understanding in the TM movement that you didn't ask Maharishi things that you intuited would upset him, make him angry, make him lie, make him contradict himself, put him on the spot....
(Does anyone else remember that "gentlemen's agreement"?)
So I don't recall anyone within the TM movement asking M. if he would please demonstrate flying. Or if they did, they asked in a very casual, apologetic, non-threatening, worshipful way, and M. laughed it off with some pun. He was very good at not answering awkward questions with puns, jokes, poor logic, etc.
(Anyone else remember that?)
Anyhow, the question was soon off-limits, I recall. Just like a dysfunctional family, we knew what not to ask, even without being explicitly instructed.
I don't know if non-TMers (such as news reporters) ever asked Maharishi for a demo of himself flying, or if they recently asked advanced TMers for a demo.
As I said, I left TM in 1981, so I don't know what demonstrations non-TMers have been asking for since then. From time to time I read about things, like the "flying Olympics demo" I think around 1985, open to the press. They reported watching hopping (butt-bouncing) but still no anti-gravity activity.
Then, about a year ago, a very large book was published by the TM movement. It was reviewed on TMFB. I think the title was "The Complete Book of Yogic Flying." (In my opinion, it wasn't really a complete book of flying. If it was, they would have taught one how to do it, and they would have reported the casualties...I digress.) But on the cover is a color photo of about 6 men with crossed legs, all about a foot off the ground. I haven't read the inside of the book, (perhaps you can find excerpts on line), but the cover, which one would think would show the very best fliers, only had them a foot off the ground. And they were a foot off mattresses, not off concrete. Any gymnast could lift off in those circumstances.
So, as I wrote in an earlier comment, the it appears that the True Believers remain convinced, and the non-TMers remain unconvinced.
'There are a number of people who embody the qualities you mention, but they are not necessarily guru material.'
Essentially, the looking for a guru is a distraction. It doesn't matter what qualities you imagine that you see in another, that other can do nothing but model those qualities for you. The idea is to develop the qualities in yourself. It is perfectly possible to learn from a totally corrupt guru, if only to see his corruption and decide to avoid it.
Once I had grasped that there was no perfect being anywhere on earth to teach me, I found that I was free to follow my nose to find what I wanted to learn. It also means that you are not constrained by religious or doctrinal boundaries and can take what is good from any source and make it your own. It also opens the eyes to the amount of wisdom available from very ordinary working stiffs who've lived a bit and seen a few things. There is no transcendent wisdom greater than that very ordinary and mundane, collective human knowledge and experience.
Besides, if you put anyone at all on a guru pedestal, he can only disappoint and eventually betray your dreams.
Give up on the guru hunt, the true guru is always within. There will be twenty good-enough teachers in a town near you.
Finding a teacher is secondary to finding the drive to struggle with these notions yourself to come to your own answers, which will inevitably change over time and with changing circumstances.
All of this guru chasing is really about finding your own autonomy and becoming a mature responsive adult, plenty of people have managed that without recourse to a guru.
H, I just don't have enough time left in this lifetime to teach myself everything I want to know, whether it is playing the piano or spiritual development, any more than I want to drive to new locations without a map or set of directions. Yes, it's possible I would arrive at my destination eventually, but with how many wrong turns along the way?
Personally I think it is a worthwhile pursuit to seek out a teacher, but unlike teaching piano, being a teacher of spiritual development seems fraught with the possibility of corruption, due to the many temptations along the way.
If you feel you have all you need for spiritual growth inside you--specifically to enable you to make the journey through old age and death--more power to you. I tip my hat.
Please could just one of you "sidhus" please tell me why you would spend any time or money learning how to fly from M. absent any demonstration that he could fly? Would you have ever paid him any money if he said he could teach you how to make slam-dunks over Kobe Bryant's head in the NBA all-star game? I have been puzzling about this for years.
'specifically to enable you to make the journey through old age and death..'
Deborah, none of us has a choice about making the journey through old age and death, with or without 'spiritual growth'--so it doesn't really matter how well or how badly you do it. Who's going to judge?
>>Deborah, none of us has a choice about making the journey through old age and death, with or without 'spiritual growth'--so it doesn't really matter how well or how badly you do it.
No kidding. We're all in the queue for the cemetary. But I earnestly hope that my own passage will not have the level of pain, fear, confusion and degradation that I have seen in others. This is a worthy goal, IMO.
But I do not rate my chances of finding a teacher very highly, because my ability to trust has been so seriously damaged by MMY and the TMO so many years ago. I am trying to find a way out of this conundrum, and I am not prepared to give up on it at present. But thank you for your advice.
ATP asked, "Please could just one of you "sidhus" please tell me why you would spend any time or money learning how to fly from M. absent any demonstration that he could fly?..."
As a former "sidhu" I learned the TMSP as work credit from the TMO; one year on staff = full instruction. I didn't have an established career at the time (in my mid 20's), so no big deal from that standpoint.
I wasn't sucked in by the idea that I would one day have super powers or go flying through the air, or that Maharishi could do this stuff. I did find the explanation that each sutra acted as a powerful purification agent for a particular channel of the nervous system and/or senses a credible one.
Taking that as my impetus for the course, I didn't ask for *any* validation of any of the sutras I was taught-- I think there were about a dozen or so.
Did the program work? Yes- unequivocally, yes. Even today, over a decade after I stopped doing the program, I find that I have enhanced use of my senses. Overall, a very worthwhile investment of my time.
The problem, DeadBuddha, is that you can't really know if the siddhis "worked" to enhance use of your senses. Your senses may have felt enhanced without the program. Or you might have been just as happy and effective without the perception of enhanced senses. Who knows. At least you perceive the experience as positive. Though not so positive that you continue to do the siddhis, yes?
Your endorsement is about as good as they get. I have heard similar endorsements from some long time siddhas I know: senses enhanced, feel that they think clearer, feel that they make better decisions, etc. I have never been persuaded by these claims. There is nothing you can really pin down. All anecdotal. In contrast my observation (also anecdotal) is that at best, they seem to function just like everyone else. Not smarter. Not better decision makers. Not healthier. No better family life. No better ability to concentrate. Not more compassionate. Not more friendly. Not stronger. Not more intuitive. No evidence that they see better than me (those who wore glasses continue to do so). Etc.
Maybe there is some "placebo" type effect operating, with people getting some benefit just through belief, or even the possibility of belief.
On the other hand, I have seen TBs, who, in my not so humble opinion, go way overboard with magical thinking (the sun is shining, it must be because the numbers at the dome are up), are very defensive and easily angered when you question any tenent of TM, and have an attitude of self- righteousness and superiority. And they rarely do a good job of explaining what they believe and why, often the explanations are muddy and full of jargon. The belief system might give them some comfort but it also may contribute to significant problems in their life. Just like believing that vaccines cause autism in the face of contrary scientific evidence. The belief may give you comfort when you can't explain your child's autism, but the belief can lead to failure to vaccinate and will result in unnecessary deaths. It takes work to be rational.
Now these are my very unscientific observations, based on people I know. But even if my observations are accurate, I am not saying that meditating itself causes anything of these negative behaviors or characteristics. I can't be sure. (Though I do think extensive rounding is bad for a number of people). But I am pretty darn sure that the cultiness of the TMO reinforces dysfunction. Just like the cultiness of many fringe religious organizations, some worse than others.
Dear Dead Buddha
So the sidhis proved for you to be a good purification rite. Bravo. Then why make the claim that they can make someone fly? Why would an enlightened saint indulge in false advertising and bait-and-switch with a very high pricetag?
Not to mention that this enlightened saint would sell TMSP with terms so that anyone who did not fit in would be deselected and thus not get the very exspensive course that they just paid for in advance. "Fraud" is the very word that comes in to my mind.
Deborah, are you referring to the class action suits of approx. 1987 by Robert Kropinski et al.? (Class action suit by people who "paid money because I was promised that I would be taught to fly, but I never flew.")I don't know how they came about. I was actually in contact with Robert et al. around then, because I was considering suing TM myself....But I do know that they settled out of court, which reduced bad publicity for the TMO. But even if they had settled in court, prospective sidhas wouldn't have necessarily heard about the lawsuit. Just like schools interested in starting the TM programs nowadays due to the David Lynch Foundation have apparently not heard about the New Jersey decision from approximately 1978 that TM and SCI is a religion and therefore not to be taught in public schools.
Darth Veda - What are you referring to? I'm not familiar with these "terms" and "deselection" and "pay but can't take course and money not refunded" that you refer to. Please explain! They didn't have these policies when I took the TM-Sidhis course in 1979.
Well I worked at a TM center, here I met around 3 individuals that became my friends. They were socalled "baby sidhas" they had paid for the TMSP and they had recieved the sutras, but none of them were ever allowed in to the last part of the course that would complete the TMSP. They all left the TM movement when They discovered that they had been deselected or excommunicated depending how one sees things.
http://www.suggestibility.org/si...org/
sidhi.shtml
"So the next stage in your fall down the rabbit hole is to become a "sidha." You sign up for the course. The teachers in your local TM center decide that you are "stable" and they endorse the application. ("Stable" means that you are dogmatically pure and that you you don't show obvious signs of psychological damage from TM practice.) You hand over several thousand dollars and you're set to go."
The above is how it was in the past, but those who was deselcted left and paid none and TMO didnt make any money from them. Later at least where I live they just sold the TMSP to anybody. So the difference is before! they were deselected TMO got their money and they never had paid them any refund from a course they paid for but never got.
Hi ruth, you commented:
"The problem, DeadBuddha, is that you can't really know if the siddhis "worked" to enhance use of your senses. Your senses may have felt enhanced without the program. Or you might have been just as happy and effective without the perception of enhanced senses. Who knows. At least you perceive the experience as positive. Though not so positive that you continue to do the siddhis, yes?"
Yes, correct- I don't know for certain if the sutras worked to enhance my senses, anymore than I know for certain if eating a pizza causes the feeling of fullness afterwards. I am willing to accept that both events are entirely coincidental.
Let me just say that the immediate effects of the sutras, and their longer term effects I associate with the practice.
As for the effect overall on my well being and ability to make decisions and have a better life, the sutras were just another data point in a long chain of desires for knowledge and experience leading me to this point.
I began my personal journey many decades ago with the simple question, "Who am I?". Using that question has led to quite a few answers, none of which had anything to do with how much better a person I am vs. someone who has not done the siddhis program. Nonetheless, they were of great benefit to me in increasing my knowledge of myself and the world around me.
I no longer practice them because my experiences after about a decade of practice were sufficient to answer questions I had about phenomena occurring beyond the ordinary perception of the senses. For some people, further discovery in this direction is probably useful. For me, I am satisfied for now- regular TM 2X20/24X7 is just fine.
ATP wrote: "Dear Dead Buddha
So the sidhis proved for you to be a good purification rite. Bravo. Then why make the claim that they can make someone fly? Why would an enlightened saint indulge in false advertising and bait-and-switch with a very high pricetag?"
I don't know. Perhaps if a person were to continue to do the flying sutra, they would advance beyond the hopping stage, though I am just speculating.
I have found through experience that anything a spiritual teacher says can be easily misinterpreted by a waking state mind. It is only through the benefit and learning process of experience that we can really decide what something said means to us.
There aren't any absolutes, whether said by an enlightened saint or you or me. No answers from others, just from ourselves. This, in my opinion is the wonder and mystery of life itself- not to shut our minds down either for or against something, but to continue the quest to find out.
Towers of Invincibility: are these being built on the premise that sidhas will levitate and thus levitate the consciousness of humanity, one in each country? Is this shit still going on, and is the premise correct, that it is based on the idea that levitation will occur at some undefined point in the future? (Yet, no one has done more than the bunny hop in what, forty years now?) Hey, let's give it another 400 years. Mankind is fascinated with flying and other vague notions, such as change for change's sake...
It is sobering to realise that it was The Beatles that suggested Maharishi to get into the superpowers business. See, they had been reading Autobiography of a Yogi which is packed with accounts of miracle working. Paul McCartney recalls how he promised to get Maharishi on the television news if he could produce evidence of levitation.
Re: the discussion between Dead Buddha and Ruth on if the sidhis produced results in Dead Buddha's life or not. I have never met Dead Buddha, so I am in no position to agree or disagree that s/he does have refined hearing, etc., and that it got refined after s/he started the sidhis or not. But I have noticed that sometimes people give TM credit for all sorts of things. A friend of mine who is successful in his career and who learned to do TM in his college years said to me, "TM has been good for me. Look how well I've done professionally." If TM is to thank for this, then how does he explain the 10 million other successful people in the U.S. who never learned TM? Also, someone commented recently on TM-Free Blog that they are satisfied with the results of TM and the sidhis. "I am middle-aged, and I have good health, I have good relationships, I have a good job." Three hours a day 7 days a week for these results. How does he explain the 10 million other middle-aged Americans who have those things but never started TM?
To me, these testimonials are a sign of the effectiveness of the "thought reform" we experienced in the TM movement: that intelligent people confuse correlation with cause-and-effect, and fail to notice the holes in their logic.
Dead Buddha, thanks for your thoughtful response.
Laurie, that mistaking correlation for causation is the biggest problem I see in true believer meditators. And rationalization abounds to accomplish this. When the stock market was going gangbusters it was because of the siddhas in the dome doing their program. When the market crashed, it was a phase transition. No matter what, there always will be a TM theory answer for everything that happens.
Laurie, rest assured that I do not fall into the TM TB category. What I said is what I meant; that the sidhis program was useful for me, and that I derived a lot of benefit from it.
I can appreciate your skepticism towards those indulging in magical thinking wrt TM, but to take my words as somehow an endorsement or in any way related to such thinking is definitely trying to pound a square peg into a round whole.
By the way, the sense that refined to the greatest degree is my sight. My hearing, not nearly to that degree.
DB:
With your refined vision, do you see Angels, devas, gnomes or rakshasas? auras?
Is the hearing refined enough to hear "the music of the spheres?
Touch refining to feel dripping soma or ojaz?
g
Dear Gina and Dead Buddha
I went to an information meeting about the sidhis and I asked the Governor "but what if you don't want to learn to fly? I told him I was not interested in that and what was important to me was to learn to become a more loving person, more patient, compassionate, etc. (my full list mentioned elsewhere in this blog). He looked surprised, but told me, "Oh but you get all that, too!" That is why I learned the sidhis.
I think it important not to disparage or be sarcastic about someone else's experiences.
I did feel great bliss on the flying course. From the very beginning of learning TM simple in 1972, I had began to see auras, and one time the whole bubble with all of the etheric layers of the person,and see them from time to time or if I focus on seeing them. So whether or not this was attributed to TM and as well other sensitivities that developed after I learned the sidhis, I now can't say.
Other people on this blog have commented that I am suffering from an illusion. However, I have checked out with people thoughts that I heard them think, that I heard in their own voices inside my head and this was confirmed by them. This would fade to a knowing and not be so distinct once I left FF or the course, but continued as knowing. So I would say, "sometimes when people are going through such things as you describe, they might typically think such and such. I was invariably confirmed with "yes, that's exactly what I am thinking." Then I could help them with it. Or at times, I would get a flash visual inside my head of an experience they may have had, full with kinesthetic reactions, and hearing what had been said to them. It was like experiencing their flashback inside myself. These were invariable experiences they'd had.
Once in FF after having attended an aboriginal pipe ceremony, I did see a "little person" ( a being in aboriginal folklore of which I had not previously heard) who followed me home out of curiosity. The cat I was house sitting was attacking the thin air, then running, then coming back attacking, so I looked closer, saw him, answered the creature's questions and asked him to leave as he was scaring the cat. He did.
When I do Therapeutic Touch ( I have 2 levels of training in this) on a person, I seem to be able to tune my inner vision down different layers inside the person, seeing what is worng in order to alleviate pain and to bring balance. It is seeing with the mind's eye as was seeing the Little Person. I once heard a guardian angel who shouted at me (like hearing a voice from deep beneath the water) to warn me that I was about to be electrocuted. I was, and I came out of a reverie, bolted to attention, and took myself out of harm's way.
None of this impresses me, though I was surprised each time. As I have written, what is important to me only is becoming the most loving person possible and to be of service to others. When these sensitivities are able to help me to be of greater service, then so be it.
I tend to think that I had these psychic potentials just within myself, and that they may have developed on their own without TM. However, given all the time spent internally on meditation, it's no wonder they strengthened, and well may have in any case just by spending time in any kind of contemplation.
It proves nothing, but if someone thinks they developed because of TM, that may be so, or it may be that they developed at the same time as doing TM, and may well have developed anyways given time spent on internal focus. Nothing is nor can be proved either way, so to me the question is moot.
Kate
gina asked:
DB:
With your refined vision, do you see Angels, devas, gnomes or rakshasas? auras?
Is the hearing refined enough to hear "the music of the spheres?
Touch refining to feel dripping soma or ojaz?
Are you asking me this to see whether or not you can detect the possibility that my sensory experiences are the result of suggestion? Or are you genuinely interested in what I have experienced?
If the former, I have nothing to say or prove to you, sistah.
In these Haloween times we old Tm-ers all see some ghosts ....now and then -
I'm with you, Kate and DB. I have seen celestial beings as real as the cup of coffee in my hand, heard the voices of angels singing prayers so beautiful, I wept. The scriptures say these experiences are worthless without love and mercy and I think we would all agree with that. I stopped practicing any of the TM techniques in 1989. Most of the interesting visuals gradually subsided and I have not missed them. But to suggest that a whole range of personal experience is more illusory than the world around us seems a bit arrogant to me. With all the change that has happened on the earth in the last 100 years one thing remains the same, we know nothing. It's not what we "know" that counts, it's what we don't know.
Thanks Betty- I agree wholeheartedly.
There is little value in collecting so-called extrasensory experiences like a string of mala beads, or ensuring that our experiences fit in with any doctrine or personal preference regarding spirituality.
These experiences should they occur are intensely personal, and packed with immediate knowledge. Because the circumstances under which they arise may be linked with Maharishi's TM techniques means less than nothing.
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