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Shit like this is so ridiculous. Yes, everyone has the right to be attracted to what they are attracted to. But are people so narrowed minded that they think someone has no human value to their life if they are not sexually attractive to them....This is so sad.
How many times in our lives have we THOUGHT we were only attracted to a certain type, only to meet an amazing person who did not meet those physical attriutes that we later found not only "rocked" our world or more importantly, brought some perspective or added to our lives in some unforseen way.
Is gential stimulation the only thing important to us as gay men?
Well a site certainly has the right to discriminate based on appearance, but I believe it does its members a great disservice. There are plenty of "chasers" out there who'd love to meet up with bears on that site.
Let's clarify something real quick:
Large guys - get in
Furry guys - get in
Large and Furry guys - don't get in
Am I misunderstanding things? That last sentence in the first paragraph is kind of confusing.
JMG: All guys who are either large or furry or both, get in. If they're not Asian.
Can they exclude? Yes
Should they exclude? No
The bear community was formed because they didn't fit into a defined community. Now Bear411.com is going back to the clique structure.
All bears are equal, but some bears are more equal than others.
JMG: Hence the title of this post.
Had a friend this happened to - never could figure it out. Interesting.
IMO, the site has a right to do anything they please. I am of Carl's mindset though, and wouldn't be all that interested in being listed in such a narrow category. To me, life is more exciting with diversity, and change. When I am not challenged to re-examine my choices, my life becomes too safe and boring. From a sexual perspective, a diet of all one flavor would have me screaming for the exits in a hurry.
My Asian (Singapore) roommate (who LOVES bears) tried to join Bear411 three times and all three times they deleted his profile.
Now he calls it WhiteHairyGuysOnly.com.
If they're big 'and' hairy 'and' Asian, then they should be allowed in.
There are so many sites out there catering to the many different things that we're attracted to. It almost seems strange to me that there isn't an Asian bear site, or a site for those that love Asian bears.
As far as I understood it Panda's are bears too :D
I have never been a fan of "organized gay" and this is one of the reasons why. I'm a member of bear411 and I think the site should be open to all. You don't have to be a bear to be a chaser. Not all bears like other bears exclusively, being on bear411 and allowing anyone on the site allows bears to be chased by interested non-bears.
Andrew Sullivan, ursine-identified in his middle age, wrote in Salon: “Big and burly and friendly...to the outside world, they are largely invisible, because they don’t fit the obvious stereotype of gay men” propagated by shows like Boy Meets Boy and Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. “These bears look more like the straight guys than the queer eyes.” Just a thought and something to consider: could this possibly be a little internalized homophobia? Perhaps Bears don't want to self-identify with those effeminate dudes that look as if they fit the societal stereotype of gay.
Personally I think it's a backlash to gay men obsessed with looking young and perfecting their abs. The subculture of bears has it's own set of relaxed rules, values, parties, and inside jokes that set them apart from other gay dudes. While recognizing one's own ursine nature and desire in a community is cool, excluding others is not. Bear411 is being reactionary, they need to loosen up and dump the attitude.
it is my experience that the bear community is growing increasing insular and exclusive. while i don't support bear411's actions, they are just reflecting the bear community's change from a rag tag band of non-body conscious outcasts to a clique of gays with a particular body image and style. they are beginning to look all alike and date only each other, just like all the other cliques. at least out in california. i'd say don't blame bear411, blame the bears - or at least the california bears.
It's kind of having your cake and eating it, too. A demographic feels excluded by the larger community because they don't fit in, so they create their own sub-culture to feel part of something and then exclude others who don't fit in.
However, it also isn't an isolated incident. I don't know if others are familiar with the furor that continues on J-Date, the site for Jewish singles. There are non-Jewish singles who really like Jews and are joining as members and people are really upset by that.
I'm not sure how one solves this. You want to protect people's desire to create a 'safe' space, yet you don't want to exclude others who want to be a part of it even if they are not the target demo. If non-bear types are allowed in, one hopes these folks are joining because of a genuine interest in bears and not in an attempt to hi-jack the site. But how do you monitor this?
I tried to join the site last year. Being a stocky guy with a hairy chest one would think I would qualify. I was sent a denial e-mail along with a polite "another site might be more suited to you". No actual substantial reason was given. I can only assume they did not like my picture because I had no facial hair, or maybe they just thought I was downright fugly. No matter, I found another site that was much better, without discrimination.
Interesting. I hang out with bears because I've got several friends who identify as bears, not because I am one. I'm not large, nor furry, but Bear411 gave me an account, anyway. (However, I'm not Asian, so maybe that's why?)
Not surprising, though. Even though the bear scene (do people really say "bear community"?) claims to be about getting over body image, being more open, etc., that's obviously not the case everywhere or with everyone.
Some of the least friendly bars or events I've attended have been bear events. (Boy, do I have some really funny stories of going to bear events.)
Is it time to invent a bear corollary to the word, "angertwink"? 
my husband is a bear? do bears have to be gay? i thought bears were chubby?
this looks just like my angel:
http://www.bear411.com/disprof.p...id=&lg=en&
onl=0
oh my gosh! and his name is Mike too! eek!
JMG: Dayum, Lynette! :P
omg, this guy looks like he's saying "where'd that thing come from?"
http://www.bear411.com/disprof.p...id=&lg=en&
onl=0
I'm with Antonio.
Is it true that most bears are only interested in hooking up with other bears? If not, then why not let the little skinny hairless bear-chasers on the site where the large and furry men can be worshipped?
I don't think I'm large enough (and know I'm not furry enough) to get on. Simply knowing that makes me not interested -- even tho' a bear or two has caught my eye in recent years. Oh well -- their loss.
I find it odd that many people have had trouble joining. I'm definately not large, but I am hairy and had no trouble joining. I've seen many profiles of people there without an ounce of hair on their body.
I'm not sure whats going on over there at bear411. I do know that customer service sucks and trying to deal with them with an issue or grievance is impossible.
Luckily, the bear community that I'm in here in Dallas is for musclebears, bears, cubs, otters, wolves and the chasers as well. They welcome everyone and don't discriminate.
I find it odd that many people have had trouble joining. I'm definately not large, but I am hairy and had no trouble joining. I've seen many profiles of people there without an ounce of hair on their body.
I'm not sure whats going on over there at bear411. I do know that customer service sucks and trying to deal with them with an issue or grievance is impossible.
Luckily, the bear community that I'm in here in Dallas is for musclebears, bears, cubs, otters, wolves and the chasers as well. They welcome everyone and don't discriminate.
Um, I don't know a damn thing about gay culture for real... but aren't there non-bears who are interested in bears? Little hairless boys who want to be molested by big hairy fellows? Wouldn't Bear411 be the perfect place for them?
JMG: Kel, you can find guys exactly like that at any bear event.
As a gay asian male who's tried(unsuccessfully) to create a profile on bear411, I don't have a problem with the exclusion - it's a private website, and the webmaster has the ability to choose who has access.
What I do have a problem with is members who continue to use the site and provide the website with revenue, while advocating equal treatment of everyone (isn't that what the bear movement was for anyways?)
I've gotten responses ranging from "Oh, that's such a shame you couldn't join, but all my friends use it" to "Hm. That sucks, but it isn't my problem".
These responses come from the same people who were in an uproar when a local(Houston) landscaping company refused a client simply because the couple was gay.
Sounds like a double standard to me.
As the Prez of one bear club and a member of another, I can tell you that both clubs welcome non-bear admirers as members and don't tolerate them being snubbed or patronized. Interestingly enough, many of our non-bear members are the most popular of guys and the hardest workers----we need them and appreciate them---and are proud to call em our friends. These two groups are in Baltimore and DC. Maybe its a Mid-Atlantic mindset----?????
As stated earlier, Bear411 has the right to set its own parameters of membership---I am a member---but I think everyone is the poorer by not letting the admirers join---not everyone can be fortunate enuff to be a bear ---but we do ourselves a disservice by being too exclusionary---think of the feelings we hurt and the friendships we may be missing. That is a true shame---and you would think Gay people would act better---but then this is the real world---
I've always felt some bears take this bear business all too seriously---as one bear to another I tell em "Lighten Up!" Of course, there are snobbish cliques within the bear world as in every other group----just consider the so-called "A-List Bears". I have little to do with them---and most of the bears I know of feel the same---they can be a dull bunch!
To sum up, I know I speak for a lot of bears when I offer apologies to those who have been slighted in cases like this----in the end, people do what they want to do---but it hurts to see a group that has been discriminated against and made fun of turn around and do to others what was done to them.
So then, fellow bears, tell Greg at Bear411 how you feel----its the honest and decent thing to do. Again, apologies to all the non-bears who've had a furry paw slam the door in their faces---its not what we're about---and many bears would be proud to call you friends. Look for them---they are there waiting for you! See ya around!
Big Hugs!!!!!
It ("bear")means different things to different people. Why not just let anyone interested "in" and give folks the option of deciding who might interest them and who doesn't instead of some jerk making that decision for them. The whole exclusion thing is just really disgusting.
I suppose a site has the right to exclude anyone for any cause. Still, I think it defeats the purpose of a social networking site somewhat. Some members might like chasers!
It's tempting to think of the bear community as universally jolly, accepting, tolerant, etc. However, my experience is that they are just another cross section of our community, with all its virtues and vices.
My husband is bearish (though not bear-identified) and I'm not. I think it's confusing to those who are strictly morpho-homophilic.
Name change; BFHP in place of "Bear", spelled out, "Big Fat Hairy Princesses".
I wonder how they are defining "big" - I think furry is quite clear - but I'm quite tall, but not so big in that other dimension, would being 6'5" put me into the "big" enough category? I love me some bears, but I agree with Alan, some of the most hostile environments I have been in are bear events. Is it my fault I don't look good in chaps? *sobs* =)
Do they let women join?
I can't say this surprises me. The bear "culture" is just as clique-ish and exclusionary as the twink culture against which it's ostensibly a reaction.
I've not been on this site. But one thing they could do is require all registrants to identify themselves as being a bear and/or a bear-chaser. Other users could use that as a search criteria. And since they seem to have an issue with Asians they could also have a self-identified race category.
This could replace their screening process unless registrants did not identify themselves appropriately. Though I'm not sure why they wouldn't.
Skinny scruffy alterna queer Me
was denied membership on Bear411 three times.
Then, after research into the prevailing modes of dress and presentation (and futher enhanced by a beard allowed to grow past stubble) I submitted new images and text revised to suggest "Regular guy-ness".
Supplemented with all this stage craft, I got in.
I see though that I'm allowed to select from only two possible categorizations on my profile: "cub" and "chaser". So I'm kinda in on a cuteness pass - a not bear. My identity is determined by my appearance.
How gay.
Try bearciti or bearforest. Way. Less. Drama.
Also try Bearwww.com---very nice and world-wide.
If their charter states 'Bears for Bears' then so be it. Otherwise it is simply discrimination.
A slippery slope though; condoning this would validate 'Men for Men', 'Jews for Jews', 'Whites for Whites' etc.
But is setting up places for like-minded people really such a bad thing after all?
Our society sanctions fitness centers for women only; so gender based acceptance is built in. Not much of a stretch to extend this to religious, ideologic, or racial based acceptance. Let private entities draw their own lines of inclusion/exclusion so long as tax-payer money or public property is not involved.
I'm just saying ...
i have a gay friend who is chubby and bald. in his forties. not hairy. he has long bemoaned the fact that he has trouble finding boyfriends. he wants to be in love, not just hook up for a one nighter.
a couple of years ago i announced to him that he was now in style as a bear. apparently not. no hair. still chubby. still bald.
i love this man and he is a funny, intelligent, talented, charming guy. he's not messed up, he's self supporting, not needy.
it seems he doesn't even fit with the bear thing, so where does he go? where does this chubby, bald, beautiful-when-you-get-to-know him man find a sweetheart?
i need to join one of this groups..i'm missing something...
Do they discriminate against other nonwhites too, or just Asians?
I, 5'7", 140 pounds, and only slightly hairy, got admitted to bear411.com on the first try. Maybe because I used a picture of myself with a beard?
@ Bart
Women-only groups are based upon the fact that women are sometimes physically victimized by men. I doubt that bears have that same fear of bear-chasers.
uh oh . . . I've actually met a couple of women/bear-fruit-flies who have had profiles on the 411 before.
what's this? a women/bear-fruit-fly? i need a class.
Though I think I have only been on that site maybe 5 times in the past year, I do have a membership and I'm not a bear or a cub. I guess some would say I'm more of an otter whatever that is as I'm not really sure. But they let me in.
oy..
@ Troy
So you're not a bear or a cub... but are you Asian?
No I'm an all American mutt, though my mom thinks she may have a wee bit of chinese in her. But that's just heresay. I would give you the link to my profile there but I don't remember it off hand. That's how often I go there.
I'm I'm not mistaken, bear411 and bearwww look very much alike....almost as if it's been created and run by the same group.
I am forever grateful for bearwww -- it's where I met Carlos...my Honduran Hottie!
I lose faith in the gay community to rise above its narcissistic and shallow tendencies when I read about things like this. It's insane that men in their 30s, 40s and 50s still feel compelled to act like teenage girls. I'd rather just hang out with all the diverse gay people I already know than subject myself to ridiculous scrutiny on a site like that. I never understood people with "types" anyway. People who live their lives in a relentless pursuit of a physical type (twink/bear/muscle daddy) are completely boring to me.
And can the word "Woof" just go away?
That said, when Neil and I went to Montréal last summer, we ended up meeting some nice guys that he met on the site. Luckily, we had other things in common other than body hair. I used to make fun of Neil for being on Bear 411, but I do have it to thank for introducing some cool guys into our social sphere. I won't be joining, however. It's just too much...
Um...that should read "IF I'm not mistaken..."...oops!
@ Mark
And blacks were victimized by whites, and gays victimized by straights, and -pending- overweights victimized by nearly everone else. Too some degree, everyone has been a victim of something. But that's not a fair excuse to include/exclude.
It is a slippery slope.
I live in SoCal, am a member on the site, and know plenty of asians that are also on it. This is the first time I've heard any issues in regards to 'discrimination'.
A friend of mine was denied a profile on Bill and Andy's Site " Big Muscle" do to his age. So he said. Isn't it tough enough just being gay?
Nebulous? A bear is fat and hairy. Or to be gentle "large" and hairy. Period.
There is a fine line between discrimination and catering to your clients. Most bears (I stress most, not all) are into other bears. If you start letting non-bears post their profiles on the site, it may turn off the majority of their subscribers, as well as defeat the purpose of having a "bear" site. Sites like Manhunt.net are not gay subset specific and may be more appropriate for non-bear types looking for bears.
I find this reprehensible.
And it's one of the major reasons why, though I might be considered a bear, I do not identify as such.
When I met my (definitely-not-a-bear)partner, I noticed that at bear events, he was fairly invisible, while no end of woof-zombies made their way over to me, elbowing him aside. This was 12 years ago. It has only gotten worse.
I'm not really interested in hanging with a group of like-minded, narrow-minded people with an exclusionary mind-set. I, like Bryce above, like the diversity we all present. I'd much prefer the opportunity to sample as many different types of men from the buffet presented, instead of confining myself, to say, only the deviled eggs.
By the way, the corollary to Angertwink is Bitterbear.
I've run into quite a few.
Wow I had no idea of this problem. I've been a member of Bear411 for about 5 years and have chatted and met at least 3 Asians in Houston just in the last year. There definitely seems to be no clear cut lines for acceptance. I do think its worth a email to the owner to express my dislike for exclusionary policies that are obviously in effect. This is disheartening for someone who embraced the bear community for its apparent acceptance of people as they are. It sucks that cliques always have to arise.
Dennis, I would agree with you , except in my case I am a bear and was still denied a membership. Which can only lead me to believe I was denied on based on my lack of facial hair because I choose to shave.
Of course they can discriminate. There are plenty of bear sites out there that let all sorts join, so it's good to have one that's 'strict' in its membership. 'Bear' is an label entirely associated with physical appearance, so yes, you could claim racism, but I'm not going to complain that I couldn't join a hypothetical 'smooth-asian-twinks.com' because I don't fit the profile.
Maybe if enough people complain, bear411.com could set up a system for 'admirer' profiles like BigMuscle.
I find some of the comments interesting.Many of you feel that the bear community at large is this exclusionary and therefor Bear411 is just a reflection of this. However, In my personal experience this is only true of SOME people in the bear community. Most welcome people with open arms. Myself, I am actually apart of the movement against bear411. As if discrimination isn't bad enough, there are other issues that are causing this revolt. IE censoring, deleting profiles, changing profiles all without notice. I myself recently had my profile deleted because I was chatting about some of the problems of bear411.
I kind of agree that Bear411 can do whatever they want, it's there site. However it's wrong and the site shouldn't be supported.
Yeah the bear world disappoints. Back in the pre-bear world of the 1980s a guy like me had only Girth and Mirth, the name of which could best be described as bitterly ironic. When bear culture dawned in the early '90s I was happy to leave that clutch of predatory chubby chasers and desperately sad guys with major self esteem issues behind. Beardom was liberating, accepting, fun, positive, affirming, and for me, anyway, got me a lot of dates and a lot of sex. Yay. But I'm not sure it's only my now middle-aged point of view that finds current beardom a whole lot less fun. Hearing "muscle bears" rant against fat guys saying "bear does not equal fat" is pretty unpleasant: I'm somehow not surprised to read about bear411 being discriminatory. I still call myself a bear (and thank God, my adorable cub calls me that too!) but I'm not quite as wide-eyed about it. Maybe mean people just suck, anywhere they are.
just checked them both out. both look like consumer ripoffs
Nev,
Shaving is seen to the bear "community" to be an act of heresy on the scale of shitting on baby Jesus.
Don't let the Mean Girl Bears get you down.
Well, as a bear who usually dates non-bears this goes a long way towards explaining why I have such a hard time finding guys I find attractive on bear411! Really, if true this is ridiculous. Bear411 should do like the chubby chaser site Biggercity, where anyone can set up a profile, and then choose what describes them, ie, bear, chub, chaser, etc. Then those who want to can only search for a specific body type, or those who don't care can look at everyone. In the end these sites are about sex, not justice, so maybe it doesn't matter that much, but it's an asshole move to kick people off for their image, and it looks like bad business as well.
I sure dont't like the exclusionary Bear411 policy. It's not bear-like. And we bears like our non-bear admirers, don't we?
That said, i'd to point out that Gregg, the Bear411 webmaster (who now lives in Montreal and appears to be a decent guy) is originally from France. So maybe it's a cultural thing. Maybe North American bears are friendlier and more open than their Europeans counterparts. And who are we to impose our cultural norms on him?
Gregg himself is Buddybear on Bear411, if anyone would like to tell him about the discussion he's stirred up...
I'm another asian who didn't get on 411 the first 3 tries. I got on after my hubby wrote a profile for me stating how much I like bears. I refuse to pay for it, but I'll use the free service until bearciti gets bigger.
>>>And who are we to impose our cultural norms on him?
Um, he moved to North America and set up a site predominately for North Americans.
While I've not personally had issues with Bear411, I have read all the bruhaha over it and here is my take.
First of all, A lot of stereotypes are still emphasized, even amongst us gays. Take a look at gay.com. So many of the ads show hairless guys, skinny, muscled, young and into gym wear. Gay City is the only ad that I'm aware of on gay.com where you even see someone with facial hair (a really cute guy with a van dyke who's a bit chubby). And many of the guys are reflections of that idea in varying degrees.
Personally, I do have a profile on Bear 411 and got on no problem since I have a full beard, even though I'm technically an otter due to my slender size. An Otter are guys who aren't huge in the girth dept but do have fur all over (and I do pretty much, just not as much as some in some areas). But because he didn't have that choice, I went with Bear as it's most closely identifies with who I am physically outside of otter. I happen to like most body types myself, but do prefer my guys to be naturally furry however.
What disappoints me are those who insist on some preconceived notion, often narrow, ideal of whom/what a person should be. In the beginning, being a Bear were guys who were overweight, furry with facial hair and who happen to also work the blue collar trades and were gay, but I think it's encompassed much more than that over the years to include pretty much anyone with fur. I have no problem with chaisers and such, I just don't see myself as one since I don't always go for the big burly guys.
Yes, Greg has the right to censor etc as it's his site but he does not have anything remotely in the way of a terms of service or user guideline apparently and seems to discriminate at will and does not let his uses know - even the paid ones.
Ultimately, his actions will be his undoing but in the meantime, if you are so unhappy with Bear411 - leave it.
Three years ago I registered for an account, frivolously, so I could look at the other members' profiles and photos -- call me an admirer. I didn't have any problem getting "in". My beard must have been the ticket, because otherwise I don't really qualify for the bear label. I canceled my account soon afterwards because I felt like a poseur on the website. I imagined all the "real" bears clucking, "just who does she think she is, anyway?"
Not young enough to be a boy toy, not old enough to be a daddy.
Not big and hairy enough to be a bear, but not thin and muscular enough to get the gym-fit guys.
Always a bridesmaid, never a bride.
As long as there have been groups of people who look alike, there have been problems with exclusion. Bears are no different... we humans are hard-wired to categorize and therefore to exclude.
When, oh when, will someone open a mid-30s big dick bar?
An Otter are guys who aren't huge in the girth dept but do have fur all over (and I do pretty much, just not as much as some in some areas).
Well, I'm not a bit hairy except for the stache so I guess I'm just your ordinary homo which if fine with me. 
good grief, what did people do before the internet?????
This post (and responses) reminded me of an ad that runs in the local GLBT paper here (Capital Xtra,Ottawa) for a lesbian group of "feminine" women that meets regularly. Er, isn't that redundant?
What are the qualifications implicit here? I have short hair...and curves. I play sports...and clean up nice...I'm attractive (and I don't just say so myself)...but I don't wear make-up. What happens if some short-haired, boot-wearing dyke shows up? Revolt? Since like Jocko mentioned waaay up at the top of the comments the butchy/boi one might blow their cover and everyone else at the coffee shop might know that it's not just a book club... Sucks for the dyke too--welcome back to high school.
I think that the site can discriminate however they want as long as it's predictable, resonable and spelled out for people who might join. I also think it's dangerous to be so limited in your "social networking" to bring it all down to appearance. I get frustrated enough with straight friends who say "you should meed my coworker/friend/ neighbour, she's a lesbian too" Yeah, cause then we have SO much in common already!
Sorry for the ramble, I'm sure there is a point in there somewhere. J
i have a profile on eurowoof (which i assume is part of the bear411 empire) - it is deliberatley very sparse so as to avoid unecessary stalkers and the sort of uniform chasers you attract if you blatantly advertise yourself as a serving police officer!
i occasionally message people and if some sort of satisfactory exchange takes place and i am happy i will send them the URL to my bigmusclebears.com profile - not wishing to be partisan here but i have not personally experienced any problems with these messages being intercepted - that notwithstanding i will keep an eye on this and if convinced by the arguments on this thread i will certainly consider whether i maintian a eurowoof/bearworld/bear411 profile
I was talking to Foxy about this very issue via IM on Bear411.
Foxy (BearBoi4Evah) was lamenting how as a shorter stature bear cub he often wasn't accepted by the more traditional huskier, burly bears.
I wanna see pictures of Lynette's actual husband.
Shirtless, preferably.
Bear411 is a private web site that the man is running as a business. I've never seen a list of rules/regs on his site, but maybe he has some unwritten ones. Sure, it's great that guys meet up on that site, but I'm sure that Greg doesn't just do it for the fun of it.
To me, this seems to fall under the class of statements seen in some restaurants/bars/hotels, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" ?
And, no, I'm not condoning it, either. Just sayin'. E-Harmony doesn't allow us gays to have profiles at all. I know, because I tried to get a profile and was denied. Since others are saying that they've met asian men on B411, there may be other reasons. Someone ask the B411 owner and see what he says officially.
Jen from Ottawa - thank you. You've summed it up nicely. NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH ATTENDING A BEAR EVENT, but it does melt my brain a little when the sole commonality of attending is having a goatee.
And if you want to use a bear event as an excuse to party with your fellow bears, knock yourself out. No harm in that at all. But once its apparent that you've got the requisite facial hair, where do you go from there? Obviously, there's nothing wrong with attending these things or aspiring to be part of that community. Just go into it knowing that it is indeed, a clique.
This discussion further proves what I've thought all along, and it's certainly not a novel concept: that the gay community is as diverse as any, with its quirks, idiosyncrasies, "splinter groups," minorities, etc. Just like, let's say, the straight community.
Only better.
before the internet, if you were "out" the bars, if you were "closeted" the parks. Fortunately I have been out my entire adult life.
well in the words of Groove Armada...
if everybody looked the same, we'd be tired of looking at each other
and I couldn't agree with Groove Armada more!
I am so out of the loop, I had no idea that these kinds of services turned people away. That's sort of sad. Not melancholy sad, but pathetic sad.
Wow. Hot Topic!
I'm not a bear, but give me 20 years and I may be. Not a big fan of dating them either. But they are ALWAYS fun guys to hang with.
That said, they deserve a little exclusivity, but any decent website will create parameters allowing the members to be exclusive. Look at the Dudesnude.com model. Because I've selected which type of guys I want to see, I sometimes forget there are guys on there that aren't hot. Similarly, I am probably filtered from other member's suitable matches.
Long story short,
exclusivity = good.
website doing it for you = bad!
I tried to be a good twinkie, lord knows I tried. But it never "took". Then I grew a beard and - as I am a bit fire-plugish - I found my dance card full - a card-holding "bear". Friends encouraged me to enter a Bear Beauty Pagent - I came in 2nd. Then a leather club approached me to join - I would up as its president. I cut my hair in a flat-top, I bought whole herds of Dead Cow. I was having the time of my life, being belle of the ball. All because I had switched my "look" from a bow-tied preppy to a Big Bad Leather Bear. I was letting all of this define my identity and run my life. I got in over my head and was living for the next Bear or Leather Event or the next beer bust.
Then a really nasty hurricane blew my city away. Overnight everything changed and our focus was on Survival. Actual, literal survival. Getting food. Finding shelter. Locating friends and hoping they hadn't been killed.
When you're in a situation like that you quickly realize that everything else is pretty much bullshit. All the clubs - all the politics - all the labels and the nonsense - just evaporated into dust. What you're left with is dear friends, shared experiences and the incalculable gift of being alive.
But - life goes on - so I guess I'd better get my combat boots shined up for next sunday's Beer Bust... : ) I just don't take it so seriously anymore.
I know at least one person who'll never find out if he'll ever be accepted at bear411.
Off-topic, as I so often am, but JMG do you actually read all the comments here? You've got the most responsive/chatty community I've seen on a gay blog, outside of Americablog, if you count that as "gay". Just wondering.
Hmmmmm - you learn new things everyday on JMG. This discussion reinforces my personal belief that rugby is an ideal sport to watch and play - regardless of gender. There is literally something or someone for everyone.
Did my old womens rugby team routinely mock me for my insistence on wearing my broad brimmed Pink Papagallo straw to every one of our matches? Why yes they did - and then of course they fell prey to its charms.
With boy rugby I've noticed for a long time that the lean and muscular (Ms. Budweiser) are just as "popular" as the bearish Viking Prop - but that no one beats Charlene Hilton for pure appeal. I think true rugby players understand that it's not how you look that matters - it's what in your heart - what grit can you bring. Speaking of which, weekend of May 19, 2007, DC.
Something for everyone.
The Elizabethans had nothing on me. Bear-baiting rocks!
That said, the allegations against Bear411 are symptomatic. They do not reflect how most of our furry, waistline-challenged (yuk-yuk) friends feel.
Anyway, it's what I see Asian dudes endure throughout the male community, especially when out of earshot.
Anti-Asian bigotry is nothing new, as Rosie O'Donnell reminded us. But our prejudice against Asian men is especially vicious. It's twisted up with our tentative, objectified masculine ideals. As a result, they suffer more than any other racial group in the community - far more than black men (and y'all know how I can get...)
It makes sad sense. Since Stonewall, the lot of every racial and social group - Asians, bears, all of us - has been joined at the hip of the American gay man-child as he grows up. He is the sum of his parts.
Fresh out of the closet, this boy was so young and insecure that he could worship and emulate only the most successful standard of masculine beauty.
It is no coincidence that his his "first" boyfriend was Casey Donovan, who was the first gay porn star. Casey (R.I.P.) was sexy and funny. And he might as well have an Aryan poster boy.
You could count the men of color in studio porn on both hands. You certainly couldn't name them, unless you were good with names like "Tom, the black stallion." (And to think that I pitied Mr. Ed for being a gelding).
Thirty years later, the median skin tone of the big porn studios threatens to bust beige (although to be fair, they would have darker stables if not for the huge, pre-emptive market in "thug porn," which is to young gay white guys what rap music is to young straight white guys).
Dammit, where are our Asian porn stars? I mean contract players at the gay MGMs, Warners, and Paramounts who make enough to quit full-time jobs, or in more cases, boost their escort rates above the $200-an-hour-plus-expenses high-end standard. There is no good reason for the Anti-Asian bias of gay porn studios.
As manager of two sex shops here I sold many copies of "Happy Hour," a recent indie hit with an all-Thai cast. In the bigger world of porn, everybody knows that the greatest star of all is Jenna Jameson -- and that number two with a bullet is Tera Patrick, who is half-Thai.
Something is is wrong. But why focus on porno as a standard for evaluating gay prejudice? Isn't objectifying part of the problem?
Remember, our dear gay boy has yet to come into his full manhood. Porn has and will continue to shape his sexual standard more powerfully than any cultural factor in the forseeable future. The rest of the world still leaves him with no choice.
Gay men couldn't be sexual in Old Hollywood. The closest we really got to being on the silver screen explains why we used to spend so much of our time acting like Bette Davis.
Times have changed. Bette's gone. Now we're all over the big screen, of the local art house anyway. Our dear boy doesn't swish around like Bette Davis. He swishes around as if his best friend was Parker Posey or Drew Barrymore.
All well and good, but what about his next trick? Only the likes of Titan, Treasure Island and Raging Stallion have the answer. With blinds well-drawn, of course, so do Tyger Tyson and Ricky Martinez.
Off-topic, as I so often am, but JMG do you actually read all the comments here? You've got the most responsive/chatty community I've seen on a gay blog, outside of Americablog, if you count that as "gay". Just wondering.
Phillip, I think the community on JMG is so "chatty" because Joe has a damn good nose for what The Gays are interested in talking about. Before I gave up blogging I used to be *thrilled* to get FIVE comments on a post. If I got a couple thousand a week, I don't think I'd read them all either. (Not saying Joe doesn't.)
A few years ago I was in a bar with a friend talking to the large, hairy bartender who was giving us the bear lowdown explaining the difference between labels. My friend said "I'm a small guy, weight proportionate, who is very furry, where do I fit in?"
"Then you're what's called an 'otter'", said the bartender.
I spoke up and said. "Hey, I'm a big guy with no bodyhair whatsoever, what am I?'
He looked at me and said, "Well, you're just fat."
Needless to say his tips were somewhat smaller that evening.
I used bear411 for about 3 years now, I was not denied membership in its early stages then, but recently I hear about other non-bears (usually small size blond guys or Asians) being denied an account and offered to use gay411 instead. I think it's mostly the owner trying to spread out the business since he owns both sites, but also, he is French, so he doesn't have the American Political Correctness mentality. I am not defending the owner of that site, but more like, "oh well, what can you do" with a big sigh...
The "he's French" card just doesn't play. For one thing, the French are all about supposedly not noticing racial characteristics since everyone living in France is meant to subscribe to the same notions of fraternity, equality, and Frenchness. Obviously the reality falls far short of the ideal, but exclusivity based solely on race isn't exactly a French characteristic either. For another, Gregg -- how I wish someone would email him so he could come here and defend himself or explain himself -- has chosen to do business in North America. It's time he learned the way it works here, rather than for us to excuse his behavior based on his background.
Personally, if a site denied my profile, I wouldn't keep submitting it. Bygones, I say. I would move on to another online hook-up service. There's like a billion other ones.
And Mark is right; the corollary to Angertwink is BitterBear!
It's definitely not just Asians whose memberships have been rejected. I tried to sign up as a "chaser," one of Bear411's own categories, but I was rejected without any explanation whatsoever. I wondered at the time if I hadn't met someone's idea of what a Bear chaser should look like...but, of course, one shouldn't have to be a bear to appreciate them.
Somehow or other, it's comforting to know that I wasn't singled out for rejection.
I thought the only requirement was a face shot? I'm not a member, but like to look.
Mike
I want to be Michele. I would love love love to be a hard tall muscular butch woman. Love it. Rugby. That would be divine.
The husband won't pose for a pic, but he laughed and thought it was sweet and he freaked when he saw his twin, the Bear411 Mike.
Re freddyinp'town's quote, "...Anyway, it's what I see Asian dudes endure throughout the male community, especially when out of earshot..."
Suffice it to say I am not surprised at all to read that.
It doesn't have to be verbally expressed to sense it, the whole body language will tell you....
JMG: On the flip side, I've gone dancing with Asian friends at mostly-Asian gay bars in SF and NYC and immediately been pegged as just another preying rice queen looking to mack on "exotic" young Asian boys, and not just a guy out getting his drunk on with friends. Sadly, that's probably exactly what most of the old white dudes in the place were there for, but still, I definitely felt it.
Gayest Neil has no such conversation with me, as I gave up my Bear411 account ages ago.
That said, I was rejected from the 411 back in the day for having a "bear negative" attitude. Imagine that. So it's not just Asians and skinny people who are rejected...it's also people who think bears are stupid.
That said, when I re-applied later, they did let me get away with "Woofing Discouraged" on my profile for ages.
"What are you supposed to be," was what I was asked by a doorman at a Bear weekend to which I was personally invited by the organizers. Presumably because I had a 30" waist and no beard at the time.
When asked, most bears will tell you, bear culture is about inclusion, but in practice, repeatedly, this has not been my experience.
To play off Joe's recent remark, gay Asian men can definitely be very cliquish all on their own, castigating those who decide to date non-Asian men. As for the non-Asian men who are willing / wanting to date Asian men, the rice queen stereotype is a pretty unfortunate one. My boyfriend is Chinese and a couple years younger than I am, and I've been called an imperialist, a post-colonialist, and a pedophile. I'm 23! The backlash can be as harsh as it is bizarre.
The gay community in general just has subclique issues galore.
Also, a "sticky rice" environment can be very hostile to non-Asians. Of course, the question of how much is that is a reaction to the general discrimination within the gay community against Asian men is another can of worms entirely.
Is the ban on MTF trannies at the Michigan Wimmin's festival discriminatory? Freedom of association is a cherished right, no? I can understand the reasoning behind the limitation on a dating website. If you're looking for bears, you want to find bears, not twinks.
There's nothing nebulous about the "bear" subcultural identity. In fact, I'd say it's very specific and exclusive to the point of obnoxiousness. The last guy I dated was so badly abused at Lazy Bear because he's neither hairy or large or hairy and large that he now despises bears entirely. I can hardly blame him. The demand for hyperconformity in the bear sub-culture with all it's regimentation and labels is pretty nauseating.
I suppose forming a group out of people who have been rejected by the mainstream gay subculture because they're fat and hairy instead of porn star pretty so they can turn around and reject people who aren't fat and hairy in an attempt to protect an aesthetic identity must somehow be empowering. It just strikes me as juvenile and behavior not worthy of adult men, that's all.
Michael,
Has your Asian boyfriend been called a "potato queen" yet? I'm sure that'll come.
Yes, the bear thing has become yet another subculture with tis own borders and border police. I suppose that was inevitable. But it's certainly a long way from the original vision of Richard Bulger, who founded "Bear" magazine to celebrate men he found hot and who were excluded from "mainstream" gay culture's standards of beauty: hairy, unaffectedly masculine, with a working class aura, well-built but not gym rats.
Gay men -- not just bears -- are ridiculously cliquish. It's sickening. My partner and I laugh our asses off whenever we see something on "In the Life" or even mainstream media talking about what a wonderful, accepting and diverse community we GLBT people have. Puh-leeze. Being a gay man in an U.S. urban center is far, far worse than high school, no matter what color, shape, size, age or furriness you may be.
The site owner has the right to make it whatever he wants it to be, and we all have the right to diss him relentlessly for it and spread the word.
I think they're fine to exclude the non-bears (But not Asian bears), though they'd be smart to have a "fans" site attached to the site.
As an excluded subculture of an excluded subculture, it makes sense that bears would want a site to call their own. Imagine if actually straight people started socializing on gay.com.
Well, Listen there are lots of Chasers, Twinks, Chubs,Otters, Polar Bears, Panda's, Osito's and Three Headed Mary's on Bear411, but if they are selecting those who "get in" then thats just wrong. Many Bear types are there looking for the chasers.. duh..... why would he not want them on on or anyone as long as they are male and not for rent.
The more time I spend in the Bear World.. the more it is like the "Culture" most claim to be pushed out of. I find it all funny, but wrong... take off the your Sci-Fi Blinders and take a good look at yourselves.....
Had the Bear community been even a tiny little bit welcoming to me I'd be up to my nipples in them right now. Since 325 pounds and a full pelt didn't seem to suit any of them I started going to the gym and waxing.
Now I can take a flight of stairs without getting winded. Thanks BC Bears!
And this children is why Grandpa rarely goes out anymore. Oh, and Lynette honey, could you clone your hubby and send the spare up to me?
Yes, Lynette if your husband looks like that I think you owe it to him (and us!) to post a link to a picture of him here for us to all "inspect." You could be married to the next (err, first?) straight gay bear icon! Just imagine the possibilities!!
I think that once a web site becomes a staple in community, it should be more professional, which would mean that no one should be excluded.
Thanks for adding a link to my blog entry by the way.
Jeffrey
My hubby and have a bear411 profile and up unti recently we were unaware of all of the exclusion & censorship. But with the recent drama surrounding the site we will join the mass exodus and delete the profile.
And while the owner of the site does have the right to exclude anyone he wants to he shoud be upfront about it. When you join there is no mention of filters that will delete your IM's, etc.
The site's owner issued this message yesterday:
"Dear member,
BEAR411 History: I started my first bear gallery on my personal web site 11 years ago. I'm a software engineer and I just wanted to help the new bear community, it was a hobby. I couldn't imagine it will be so huge after a couple of years.
The gallery was growing and growing so I thought it was time to move it on a site made only for it and I created BEAR411.com. At the beginning one server was enough, I was paying the bandwidth bill by myself. The site was more and more successfull, it needed more computers and more bandwidth which cost a lot of money I had no choice to ask to members who could to support BEAR411.
I want to thank you guys who supported and still support BEAR411.
BEAR411 Spam Fighting: The first years were peaceful. But so much success "inspired" a couple of bear411 members who decided to create their own sites because it sounded a good "opportunity".
Those guys were bear411 members for years and thought "why not spamming BEAR411 to attract people on my site". You don't like receiving spam into your maibox? Me neither. That's why there is an anti-spam filter on BEAR411 to ban those sites.
People are free to create new sites but when it comes to act illegally by spamming sites, that is just unfair.
Don't hesitate to report spammers, there is a 'report profile' link at the bottom of each message window.
I won't tell you all the bad things those people tried against me and BEAR411 you'd be scared.... Anyway lawyers are made to deal with that sort of things.
BEAR411 Profiles: I created BEAR411 to ease the contact between bears. You are on BEAR411 to chat with your friends, to meet people or to find a lover. Profiles exists for that purpose and not for promoting business things. I have to be clear about that because with more than 100,000 members it is a big temptation for spammers. When we chat we don't like beeing harrassed by people who contacts you because they have something to sell. Again, I did set up a 'report profile' feature against spammers, scammers, fakers...
Of course some of those people are upset to be discovered and banned, and over-reacts by beeing mean against the site.
BEAR411 was elected by voters the #1 bear site and I thank you for that. I created this site with all my heart and will always keep-up the good work for you guys.
You can post your testimonial about BEAR411 in a chat message to BUDDYBEAR."
I apologize if someone else had posted that already but I didn't see it above.
I think what started the revolt were these testimonial emails sent by users heaping praise on the owner of the site. They're kind of sickening.
All of the drama aside, the site just sucks, it's tired and outdated.
So I guess it's on to bearciti.com or one of the many others.
Now when do we get to see pics of Lynette's husband?
Interesting comments here!
No offense guys, but what's so attractive about being (ghast!) large and furry? Toned, in shape, clean-shaven... that's my type of guy. And it's ground for divorce if the parner strays from that.
As clique-ish and judgmental as gay men can sometimes be, we are also very quick to feel slighted and judged and excluded. There's no mystery in that, 'cause lots of times we are...but I think the latter helps explain the former. We expect to be rejected and despised, so we cluster together and give the stinkeye to interlopers. It's sad, no doubt, but it won't go away until we feel safe. Not bloody likely to happen in this culture.
Sheesh, I thought bears hibernated in the winter.
Well turbo7phx some guys would find toned & clean shaven just as ghastly as you find big & hairy. There is nothing special about the latter but the discussion is about a bear website called bear411.com
I feel sorry for your boyfriend. No offense.
They've denied me a membership twice. I'm not Asian and I'm not hairless or skinny either. So I don't know what kind of criteria they're looking at. I think they're just morons or something.
I had no idea people were rejected by Bear411 until now. I'm not going to re-up, that's for sure. I can't imagine why they would reject anyone for any reason. Isn't their goal to make money? And even worse, that they would be rejected people for obviously racist reasons.
(Though BigMuscle.com rejects people all the time, even if BigMuscleBears.com doesn't.)
I'm also surprised that there hasn't been any response from the owner, Greg, who's on the homepage.
The site is privately owned and for all intents and purposes, free. The owner should be able to do whatever he pleases with it.
These insignificant forms of exclusion are the equivalent of a velvet rope or a dress code at bar (I knew the end was near the night I saw someone wearing a pink polo shirt at the Spike...). You cannot join all the reindeer games, Rudolph. Get over it.
"Bear 411 Sucks" list of grievances has such a sour little tone to it that it's hard to take it seriously.
Just curious; how can the author of Bear 411 Sucks be tired of something he has no access to? How many times has he tried to join and been rejected? I've heard old stories about people standing outside studio 54 night after night after week after month who never got in...the Web equivalent seems so much sadder.
By the way, Bear 411 is such a wonderful site, I recommend signing up. If you have not been on it, you don't know the fun you're missing!
As a bisexual man and a "wolf" I don't feel unwelcome at bear411. But I'm young and white too.
I joined bear411 since I'm on most of the other sites and my friends are on bear411 and I figured I could use bear411 to meet other people.
I haven't had my profile censored but I did put how I am perfectly fine with transgendered people, bisexuals, lesbians, camp/femme guys, drag queens, and how people should be who they are not what others want them to be.
Lynette-if your husband looks like that guy you have excellent taste in men!
Bear411 still uses frame. That, alone, is reason enough *not* to join.
Giorgio: Not to my knowledge, no, although I'm quite familiar with the term.