The Theological Ruminator
Fellowship is just another example of Rick Warren fluff churches that contribute the the decline of the Christian Church. 75% of people in there aren't Christians (if that...) and the other 25% have no idea what real Christianity is. It's so "relevent" that it's not distinctively Christian and makes everything it touches watered-down. It makes those outside the church either see nothing with it that stands unique to Christ, which furthers the true contempt for the church...
Fellowship is just another example of Rick Warren fluff churches that contribute the the decline of the Christian Church. 75% of people in there aren't Christians (if that...) and the other 25% have no idea what real Christianity is. It's so "relevent" that it's not distinctively Christian and makes everything it touches watered-down. It makes those outside the church either see nothing with it that stands unique to Christ, which furthers the true contempt for the church...
Those outside don't respect it (and shouldn't) and those inside are probably apathetic or clueless. Instead of being seeker-sensative, why not try being theologically sound and having faith in God to draw people to you? Making the door wide enough for everyone to be "comfortable" destroys the truth and grows a lack of respect for a grey church in a grey society. It fills the pews with people, for sure, but most are probably going to hell and have no idea because they think they're saved by going to a church or walking an aisle.
Those outside don't respect it (and shouldn't) and those inside are probably apathetic or clueless. Instead of being seeker-sensative, why not try being theologically sound and having faith in God to draw people to you? Making the door wide enough for everyone to be "comfortable" destroys the truth and grows a lack of respect for a grey church in a grey society. It fills the pews with people, for sure, but most are probably going to hell and have no idea because they think they're saved by going to a church or walking an aisle.
John Mark,
Sorry, I meant to tell you when I talked to you Saturday that if you went to the Orthodox church and expected to understand it or be mentally challenged, you would be disappointed. I too did not enjoy my first (and many after) experiences in the Orthodox service.
But over time I have found their lack of emphasis on rationalism and "perfomance" (your earlier description of some modern seeker worship) refreshing. I find a certain centeredness with a 2,000 year old tradition over the modern tradition of innovation.
John Mark,
Sorry, I meant to tell you when I talked to you Saturday that if you went to the Orthodox church and expected to understand it or be mentally challenged, you would be disappointed. I too did not enjoy my first (and many after) experiences in the Orthodox service.
But over time I have found their lack of emphasis on rationalism and "perfomance" (your earlier description of some modern seeker worship) refreshing. I find a certain centeredness with a 2,000 year old tradition over the modern tradition of innovation.
Hummm... well I don't know guys...
Like I said, I was really surprised by my experience. I actually found Fellowship Church very good on some respects. Again, I DID NOT agree with everything, but Matt, it wasn't JUST fluff. Now maybe they skirt issues at other times, and I certainly thought that more could have been said on their topic (avoiding materialism), but Ed Young gave some GREAT application to his sermon, it was memorable, and the whole service was well done. Now I agree with what your saying about the dangers of being seeker sensitive. For instance, the 2.5 solos were too much. Yuck. Maybe if I went there more often I would see key doctrine missing. But what I liked and think other churches should imitate is 1)the quality, 2) real life centered (so what question), and 3)the welcome I felt.
Hummm... well I don't know guys...
Like I said, I was really surprised by my experience. I actually found Fellowship Church very good on some respects. Again, I DID NOT agree with everything, but Matt, it wasn't JUST fluff. Now maybe they skirt issues at other times, and I certainly thought that more could have been said on their topic (avoiding materialism), but Ed Young gave some GREAT application to his sermon, it was memorable, and the whole service was well done. Now I agree with what your saying about the dangers of being seeker sensitive. For instance, the 2.5 solos were too much. Yuck. Maybe if I went there more often I would see key doctrine missing. But what I liked and think other churches should imitate is 1)the quality, 2) real life centered (so what question), and 3)the welcome I felt.
Okay - Dad, I went in to the Greek Orthodox service very sympathetic and open to whatever. I honestly believe I went in not to understand or be mentally challenged.
As you mention, I did like the lack of focus on performance. Clearly (unlike Fellowship Church) this was not a "performance driven" event. Also, I expect that I would "enjoy/appreciate" the service more if I did understand the meaning behind all the symbolism. I got it a few times when they did something three times (aha! the trinity) but most if it was not apparent to me. Another thing good was the clear reverence for God.
Okay - Dad, I went in to the Greek Orthodox service very sympathetic and open to whatever. I honestly believe I went in not to understand or be mentally challenged.
As you mention, I did like the lack of focus on performance. Clearly (unlike Fellowship Church) this was not a "performance driven" event. Also, I expect that I would "enjoy/appreciate" the service more if I did understand the meaning behind all the symbolism. I got it a few times when they did something three times (aha! the trinity) but most if it was not apparent to me. Another thing good was the clear reverence for God.
Those things aside, I did not like the service. It was culturally too long. That's not to say that Americans need to have their attention spans stretched - it's just that this was beyond stretching. It was even obviously too long for the members there as most weren't even there when the service started! I thought my church was bad! People were coming in an hour or an hour and a half late! Now, I know you're just going to say, "ha,that's John Mark " but it was so obvious that for most people, this length of service at the pace they did it at was too much.
Those things aside, I did not like the service. It was culturally too long. That's not to say that Americans need to have their attention spans stretched - it's just that this was beyond stretching. It was even obviously too long for the members there as most weren't even there when the service started! I thought my church was bad! People were coming in an hour or an hour and a half late! Now, I know you're just going to say, "ha,that's John Mark " but it was so obvious that for most people, this length of service at the pace they did it at was too much.
Ahhh... I'm ranting. Sorry. I really was disapointed though.
One final question - does the Greek Orthodox church hold to the perpetual virginity of Mary? Several times I noticed references to her as "ever virgin."
Ahhh... I'm ranting. Sorry. I really was disapointed though.
One final question - does the Greek Orthodox church hold to the perpetual virginity of Mary? Several times I noticed references to her as "ever virgin."
Whoops. Forgot to include this:
I also thought the service was unfriendly (based only on my personal experience) to outsiders and decided that its use of Greek was pointless. Any benefit (connection with the early church, mystery, etc) is totally outweighed by the fact that NO ONE SPEAKS KOINE GREEK ANYMORE. "Kurie eleason" is nice but connects me no closer with God than saying "lord, have mercy." Hence, it's not a good idea to use it in the service.
Well, that's quite enough (too much I'm sure). A final caveat: I'm not saying that worship wasn't happening or wasn't good at the Greek Orth. but I am saying that there were a number of critical areas I think could be improved on.
Whoops. Forgot to include this:
I also thought the service was unfriendly (based only on my personal experience) to outsiders and decided that its use of Greek was pointless. Any benefit (connection with the early church, mystery, etc) is totally outweighed by the fact that NO ONE SPEAKS KOINE GREEK ANYMORE. "Kurie eleason" is nice but connects me no closer with God than saying "lord, have mercy." Hence, it's not a good idea to use it in the service.
Well, that's quite enough (too much I'm sure). A final caveat: I'm not saying that worship wasn't happening or wasn't good at the Greek Orth. but I am saying that there were a number of critical areas I think could be improved on.
Regarding Mary's virginity, if I recall correctly is that the early church taught that Jesus was Mary's only child and that the references to Jesus' brother/sisters were actually to cousins (or some close relative). This is what is taught but I also understand that if it can be proved otherwise it is not a big deal... kind of like you said last month, spend more time on the big stuff that matters.
Also the title, Theotokos or Mother of God, is a strong declaration of the dual nature of Jesus, which was a major issue for the early church.
Dad
P.S. I'm looking forward to seeing you all in a couple of weeks...unfortunately it sounds like you are going to burn out a few brain cells in the meantime!!!
Regarding Mary's virginity, if I recall correctly is that the early church taught that Jesus was Mary's only child and that the references to Jesus' brother/sisters were actually to cousins (or some close relative). This is what is taught but I also understand that if it can be proved otherwise it is not a big deal... kind of like you said last month, spend more time on the big stuff that matters.
Also the title, Theotokos or Mother of God, is a strong declaration of the dual nature of Jesus, which was a major issue for the early church.
Dad
P.S. I'm looking forward to seeing you all in a couple of weeks...unfortunately it sounds like you are going to burn out a few brain cells in the meantime!!!
John Mark, I'm glad that you went to your first Greek Orthodox service and I appreciate your candid remarks. You are right that the services can be difficult because they are so eastern and we are so very, very western. Whew---what a work-out you must have had going from one extreme and then to the other. I can imagine you delighting in that... Our church was begun by Greek immigrants, not by missionaries, so they have retained much of the Greek language and culture, though they are moving toward becoming all English (they go slowly and lovingly out of respect for the older Greek parishioners.) But the Greek Orthodox church that Anna and Brian go to is almost all in English; the music is beautifully sung, and the pastor/priest is very evangelical; the church was started not so long ago as a mission church so the church has a stronger connection with the American culture.
John Mark, I'm glad that you went to your first Greek Orthodox service and I appreciate your candid remarks. You are right that the services can be difficult because they are so eastern and we are so very, very western. Whew---what a work-out you must have had going from one extreme and then to the other. I can imagine you delighting in that... Our church was begun by Greek immigrants, not by missionaries, so they have retained much of the Greek language and culture, though they are moving toward becoming all English (they go slowly and lovingly out of respect for the older Greek parishioners.) But the Greek Orthodox church that Anna and Brian go to is almost all in English; the music is beautifully sung, and the pastor/priest is very evangelical; the church was started not so long ago as a mission church so the church has a stronger connection with the American culture.
I just got done watching Dallas beat Seatle on Monday Night football! Whoopie! (Wait, did I have time for that?)
Humm... Dad, your comments are interesting. I don't know what the patristic writings on Mary are, but reading references to "brothers" as "cousins" sounds VERY loose with the text. I have trouble buying that at all. Anyway, like you said I guess it's not a big deal (though they DO make a big deal of it by including it in the liturgy). And the theotokos is no big deal for me though I do think it is real easy to go from Mary "veneration" to Mary "worship."
And Mom, I do understand that cultural change is very hard for people, especially older ones. But that doesn't change the fact that the church must engage in worship and teaching in ways that are relevant to the culture around them.
I just got done watching Dallas beat Seatle on Monday Night football! Whoopie! (Wait, did I have time for that?)
Humm... Dad, your comments are interesting. I don't know what the patristic writings on Mary are, but reading references to "brothers" as "cousins" sounds VERY loose with the text. I have trouble buying that at all. Anyway, like you said I guess it's not a big deal (though they DO make a big deal of it by including it in the liturgy). And the theotokos is no big deal for me though I do think it is real easy to go from Mary "veneration" to Mary "worship."
And Mom, I do understand that cultural change is very hard for people, especially older ones. But that doesn't change the fact that the church must engage in worship and teaching in ways that are relevant to the culture around them.
Greetings everybody. I realize I'm a bit late to this party. One problem with coming in on a conversation late is that you want to comment at once on everything that was said.
Mom brought up something interesting that I've been reflecting on lately. The orthodox church (and Christianity) started in the East. So, I dont mind seeing close ties to the Eastern culture and mindset from which it came. John Mark, I agree with you, it does need to be accessible. But I don't believe it needs to be 100% easy to swallow simplified beyond recognition.
I think there's a difference between cultural relevancy and just pandering to whatever the people around you can swallow. Do you want to aim just below what people can grasp? Or do you want to aim above it and let people reach up for it?
(more...)
Greetings everybody. I realize I'm a bit late to this party. One problem with coming in on a conversation late is that you want to comment at once on everything that was said.
Mom brought up something interesting that I've been reflecting on lately. The orthodox church (and Christianity) started in the East. So, I dont mind seeing close ties to the Eastern culture and mindset from which it came. John Mark, I agree with you, it does need to be accessible. But I don't believe it needs to be 100% easy to swallow simplified beyond recognition.
I think there's a difference between cultural relevancy and just pandering to whatever the people around you can swallow. Do you want to aim just below what people can grasp? Or do you want to aim above it and let people reach up for it?
(more...)
To be honest John Mark, I was kind of bothered by the tone of one of your comments:
I ... decided that its use of Greek was pointless. Any benefit (connection with the early church, mystery, etc) is totally outweighed by the fact that NO ONE SPEAKS KOINE GREEK ANYMORE. "Kurie eleason" is nice but connects me no closer with God than saying "lord, have mercy." Hence, it's not a good idea to use it in the service.
Maybe this isn't what you meant, but what it sounds like to me was "I walked in, couldn't immediately see the relevance of some stuff, so I believe it is completely pointless - they are wasting their time." Again, maybe that's not the emotion you meant to convey, but that's kind of what I got out of it. Again, it seems to me you want every aspect of worship (and the Christian faith?) to be completely understandable to everybody at first glance, and without any more work on anybody's part.
(more)
To be honest John Mark, I was kind of bothered by the tone of one of your comments:
I ... decided that its use of Greek was pointless. Any benefit (connection with the early church, mystery, etc) is totally outweighed by the fact that NO ONE SPEAKS KOINE GREEK ANYMORE. "Kurie eleason" is nice but connects me no closer with God than saying "lord, have mercy." Hence, it's not a good idea to use it in the service.
Maybe this isn't what you meant, but what it sounds like to me was "I walked in, couldn't immediately see the relevance of some stuff, so I believe it is completely pointless - they are wasting their time." Again, maybe that's not the emotion you meant to convey, but that's kind of what I got out of it. Again, it seems to me you want every aspect of worship (and the Christian faith?) to be completely understandable to everybody at first glance, and without any more work on anybody's part.
(more)
(part 3 of 3)
Personally I like the challenges that formalized worship brings. And every time I've dug in and found out why they do stuff, I haven't been disappointed.
Regarding why they include Greek in the service, it doesn't bother me at all. I mean, it was brought to America by Greeks. If they say to me "Hey, we're Greek, we're worshipping in Greek. Here are all the translations of everything we're saying. We're in the process of moving most of the worship service over to English, but we will still keep some small parts in Greek - that's the language that the Christian church was started in and it's a strong part of our heritage," then it makes sense to me.
It's time for me to rush off to work, I'll poke my head in later.
brian
(part 3 of 3)
Personally I like the challenges that formalized worship brings. And every time I've dug in and found out why they do stuff, I haven't been disappointed.
Regarding why they include Greek in the service, it doesn't bother me at all. I mean, it was brought to America by Greeks. If they say to me "Hey, we're Greek, we're worshipping in Greek. Here are all the translations of everything we're saying. We're in the process of moving most of the worship service over to English, but we will still keep some small parts in Greek - that's the language that the Christian church was started in and it's a strong part of our heritage," then it makes sense to me.
It's time for me to rush off to work, I'll poke my head in later.
brian
I wonder about your assumptions in the last sentence of your previous post. Yes, we as believers are called to go into the world and be relevant to our culture, but is that the calling (direction) of worship? Shouldn't worship be directed toward God instead of the culture, drawing our hearts, souls, minds and strength into an expression of love?
In Orthodoxy liturgy is called "the work of the people". I still do not find the liturgy an easy thing to do, but I find my heart wonderfully awakened and touched like I have not before.
Dad
I wonder about your assumptions in the last sentence of your previous post. Yes, we as believers are called to go into the world and be relevant to our culture, but is that the calling (direction) of worship? Shouldn't worship be directed toward God instead of the culture, drawing our hearts, souls, minds and strength into an expression of love?
In Orthodoxy liturgy is called "the work of the people". I still do not find the liturgy an easy thing to do, but I find my heart wonderfully awakened and touched like I have not before.
Dad
Well, I love the interaction here. This is great. Some quick responses.
Brian,I agree with most of what you say and I didn't intend the tone you picked up to be there. What I mean is this: worship should be done in the language of the people you are dealing with. That's it. I If I'm from China, then an Asian worship service in chinese is fine. Same with Greece. But how many of the 200+ people in the worship service the other day spoke Greek? I'll wager not many. Maybe I'm wrong. But I don't think so. I'm not saying they are "wrong" to do the worship in Greek. I'm just saying that doing a worship service in Greek in America is probably not the "best" idea unless you have a large community of Greeks who only or primarily speak Greek.
I do agree with your comments that everything doesn't need to be immediately obvious to the person walking in off the street as to why we do stuff.
Well, I love the interaction here. This is great. Some quick responses.
Brian,I agree with most of what you say and I didn't intend the tone you picked up to be there. What I mean is this: worship should be done in the language of the people you are dealing with. That's it. I If I'm from China, then an Asian worship service in chinese is fine. Same with Greece. But how many of the 200+ people in the worship service the other day spoke Greek? I'll wager not many. Maybe I'm wrong. But I don't think so. I'm not saying they are "wrong" to do the worship in Greek. I'm just saying that doing a worship service in Greek in America is probably not the "best" idea unless you have a large community of Greeks who only or primarily speak Greek.
I do agree with your comments that everything doesn't need to be immediately obvious to the person walking in off the street as to why we do stuff.
Dad, I agree that worship should be directed toward God and not toward the culture. However, that doesn't change the fact that worship is done "within" the culture. Thus, worship should NOT be culturally directed (bad idea) but I think it should be culturally relevant. All worship has come from a certain cultural background of some kind. Liturgy arose and the chanting arose and the vestments worn and the cross shape of the church all arose out of cultural expectations and necessities of the time.
Here's an analogy on my thoughts. If I were to take contemporary American praise songs, translate them, and try to make a tribe in Africa use them for worship I am making a mistake. I am trying to make them worship in a "language" not their own. They need to worship God out of their own culture (not culturally driven but relevant).
Dad, I agree that worship should be directed toward God and not toward the culture. However, that doesn't change the fact that worship is done "within" the culture. Thus, worship should NOT be culturally directed (bad idea) but I think it should be culturally relevant. All worship has come from a certain cultural background of some kind. Liturgy arose and the chanting arose and the vestments worn and the cross shape of the church all arose out of cultural expectations and necessities of the time.
Here's an analogy on my thoughts. If I were to take contemporary American praise songs, translate them, and try to make a tribe in Africa use them for worship I am making a mistake. I am trying to make them worship in a "language" not their own. They need to worship God out of their own culture (not culturally driven but relevant).
My thoughts on Greek Orthodoxy are somewhat similar. Now if the cultural expressions of one era are relevant and helpful in God directed worship in another era (as you guys have found in the Gr. Orth) then that's great. But that might not always be true in all places with all people.
My thoughts on Greek Orthodoxy are somewhat similar. Now if the cultural expressions of one era are relevant and helpful in God directed worship in another era (as you guys have found in the Gr. Orth) then that's great. But that might not always be true in all places with all people.
John,
Thanks for visiting Fellowship, and thanks for starting such an interesting conversation. It is rare to see faith discussed with such heartfelt honesty.
I am the Internet Manager at Fellowship and would be happy to answer any questions you may have. I have attended FC for nearly 5 years and can say that everything we do is biblically based and uncompromising. Our pastor, Ed Young, has never watered down the gospel or hesitated in tackling controversial topics (lust, child-centered parenting, true forgiveness) that many churches avoid.
We believe that a healthy, biblically-functioning church should be 1/3 lost, 1/3 baby Christians, and 1/3 mature Christians. We strive to reach our entire community for Christ and the fruit can be found in the incredible life-change that is the heart of Fellowship.
Thanks again for visiting. God bless,
Brian Bailey
John,
Thanks for visiting Fellowship, and thanks for starting such an interesting conversation. It is rare to see faith discussed with such heartfelt honesty.
I am the Internet Manager at Fellowship and would be happy to answer any questions you may have. I have attended FC for nearly 5 years and can say that everything we do is biblically based and uncompromising. Our pastor, Ed Young, has never watered down the gospel or hesitated in tackling controversial topics (lust, child-centered parenting, true forgiveness) that many churches avoid.
We believe that a healthy, biblically-functioning church should be 1/3 lost, 1/3 baby Christians, and 1/3 mature Christians. We strive to reach our entire community for Christ and the fruit can be found in the incredible life-change that is the heart of Fellowship.
Thanks again for visiting. God bless,
Brian Bailey
Thanks Brian B. for the comments. I hadn't noticed your post until just now.
Thanks Brian B. for the comments. I hadn't noticed your post until just now.
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