This writer may have felt better having vented all this, but she has done her cohorts no favors by presenting the case in such an angry, hateful, hot-headed, illogical manner.
Ellen R. Sheeley, Author
"Reclaiming Honor in Jordan"
Karin, it is very difficult to see any sense at all in this post as it is crammed with obfuscation and very inaccurate platitudes. I shall sum a few points up:
1. The US and others should not criticise Islamic treatment of women because they are committing genocide in Iraq. Utterly silly besides they are not committing genocide, most killing their is Shia Vs Sunni. Iran and Syria have more to blame for the ethnic conflict than the US. Indeed the 'surge' has reduced communal violence. I have been to Iraq by the way, I am not seeking to paint a rosy picture just a more honest one. Iran and Syria provide backing respectively for Shia militias and Al Qaeda the real killers in Iraq.
2. Islam treats women well. Perhaps it does but could you perhaps mention that to the Taleban? Or the Salafist Saudi's etc etc. Where do they get their ideas from? Why can't Muslim women have four husbands? If Islam did treat women equitably it would permit that, it does not compared to modern pluralistic western democracies.
3. The bit about honour killings. Well consider the following in which religion do they appear prolific? Hmm answers on a postcard? Even if that religion actually condemns them it's commoditification of women by men allows for a culture in which 'honour' killings become rampant. Examples are legion but I believe Jordan's 'Parliament' recently passed a law saying honour killings were not murder anyway! Another group of Muslims you may wish to direct your anger at but of course you won't. Sadly Karin posts like this one exist to detract attention away from Islamic issues and by that I mean western criticism. You would be braver and smarter facing up to the real problems in Islamic societies. Anyway take care friend. Paul.
The Quran also says the following which you totally disregard. Double standards, you have.
2:47 Children of Israel! call to mind the favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other nations. 2:122 O Children of Israel! call to mind the favor which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other nations.
7:137 And We made the children of Israel, who were considered weak (and of no account), inheritors of lands in both east and west, - lands whereon We sent down Our blessings. The fair promise of thy Lord was fulfilled for the Children of Israel, because they had patience and constancy, and We leveled to the ground the great works and fine
buildings which Pharaoh and his people erected (with such pride). 17:104 And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land of promise":
10:93 We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them.
20:80 O ye Children of Israel! We delivered you from your enemy, and We made a Covenant with you to give you the right side (the blessed side) of Mount Sinai, and We sent down to you Manna (special food) and quails.
26:59 Thus it was, but We made the Children of Israel inheritors of such things (the promised land)
45:16 We did aforetime grant to the Children of Israel the Book the Power of Command, and Prophet hood; We gave them, for Sustenance, things good and pure; and We favored them above all other nations.
44: 32 And We have chosen them (the Children of Israel) above the 'Alamîn (mankind, and jinns) and our choice was based on a deep knowledge.
32.23] And certainly We gave the Book to Moses, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel.
[32.24] And We made of them Guiding Lights and leaders to guide by Our command as they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.
[17:104] And we said to the Children of Israel afterwards, “ scatter and live all over the world…and when the end of the world is near we will gather you again into the Promised Land”.
Er Achmed, we were discussing honour killings and the role of women in Islam. Oh yes and the lie that the US are genociding Iraq. Nice quotes by the way, pity they are abrogated by later verses describing Jews as monkeys and pigs. And indeed telling Muslims to fight against Jews and Christians (people of the book) until Islam rules over them. It really wouldn't matter were it not the case that so many Muslims believe and act violently motivated by such scriptural hate. I could of course quote the exact verses for all of these but I'm guessing you already know them.
Paul,
I know what you were discussing. But someone who is quoting verses from the Quran, talks about hate and eradicating the jews throughout this blog. So putting in verses from the Quran, I see why not add other verses from Quran which this blog owner completely rejects. As for "I could of course quote the exact verses for all of these but I'm guessing you already know them.", please do so. No one accepts your word or mouth.
Achmed
Achmed, it seems you are at loggerheads with Karin over a separate issue here so I will leave you to it. However for the record verses describing Christians and Jews as Monkeys and imploring Muslims to fight against Jews and Christians until they have subjugated them are as follows:
002.065
YUSUFALI: And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."
PICKTHAL: And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated!
SHAKIR: And certainly you have known those among you who exceeded the limits of the Sabbath, so We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated.
009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
009.030
YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
PICKTHAL: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
Achmed, I do respect you and it seems that we may in fact be closer to one another than initially we thought we were. I respect your opinion and apologise for any offence caused. I will check out your blog in due cause thus far it seems ok to what I myself would think. However Karin, comes across as all sweetness and light in reality she has more in common with many Germans from a earlier dark era than she would care to admit.
So since this is blog for peace and for human dignity. Now when there is talk about blaming jews of racism based on religion, we see that Islam isn't so different either. Unless the jews and christians subjugate themselves, followers of Islam can kill them? murder them?
So are we not going to stop until the entire world follows Islam by force? Is that what peace is all about, convert people to islam and if not then murder them?
I prefer to live and let live. I don't think spreading hatred and talk about eradicating and mass murdering until everyone is muslim, is going to help us achieve peace.
Just for the record, the jews never called Ezra the son of Allah (or the son of God).
Sadly Achmed many Muslims do believe in just that. Not all agree on the use of violence to that end however. As proof look at Muslim groups advocating Sharia law in the west. I agree with live and let live too, I wish a modern secular democracy like Israel was allowed to live too ( not according to Karin of course). There is no need for your comments on Christianity but as a practicing Christian I can answer any questions you may wish to email me. After all unlike many on here I 'love thy neighbour'.
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