I think its the lost Gospels of Jesus in which he lays out his teachings on supply-side economics, pre-emptive war and homophobia.
Agitprop | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 7:47 pm | #

Hold it up to a mirror, it looks like it was written backwards.
Bud | 03.14.05 - 7:50 pm | #

My bet is that it's some kind of "High
German" from middle 1500's.

My capricious elf says it might
be a love note to a very young Martin Luther from a gay priest.
LimaBN | 03.14.05 - 7:52 pm | #

Where in New Orleans did you get this? I'm a native, but can't think of where you'd go to buy something like this. Not at the French Market flea market, I assume. ;)

I have no idea what language that's in, but I'd wonder if it's some bizarre Germanic dialect or something. While I can't recognize a single word, the general appearance of the script reminds me of things I saw in Germany. Modern German penmanship always looked "pointy" to me. I could never tell the difference between "m", "n", "u", "v", "r", etc. It was all just a bunch of up-and-down jagged lines. And while this certainly doesn't look modern, it does look similar in that sense.
yatdave | 03.14.05 - 7:53 pm | #

looks like a will or land conveyance- English on the back marks out some land,
the language on the front has some Latin or French vowels going on there, which would make a nice solemn document of some sort. Tough to make out, although you can read the last line as mentioning the additions in the margins.
J Carolina | 03.14.05 - 7:55 pm | #

No wait- it's a map to the lonely mountain! ;)
J Carolina | 03.14.05 - 7:56 pm | #

I also think it might be a Germanic language, but I couldn't say for sure...although if you look at the one with just a little writing, it looks like it's written on skin when you enlarge it. *shudder*
just me | 03.14.05 - 7:56 pm | #

Da Vinci is famous for writing left handed and backwards. His writings 'looked' like code, but they appear normal in a mirror.

I do believe 'Bud' is right. Hold it up to a mirror and it should look more reasonable. Most likely it's just a 'copy' of one of Da Vinci's text, or maybe a recipe for Pasta Fagioli... :)

There are a lot of 'scams' around lithographs and 'copies' of art passes off as originals. Largely because the work itself is so captivating and unusual. I would doubt this is more than just another such copy, but who knows...

Cheers
Ryan
Ryan Neat | 03.14.05 - 7:57 pm | #

I have no idea what it is but side one seems to be right-justified, leading me to believe that it's one of the languages that rights from right-to-left.
RandyH | 03.14.05 - 7:57 pm | #

It's Rove's contract with Satan.
Walter Neff | 03.14.05 - 7:58 pm | #

that's german gothic writing teached under the Reich......
rudi | 03.14.05 - 7:58 pm | #

It says: "Homos are bad, vote for Bush. /signed/ The Rev. Dr. Jesus" over and over again . . . .
RevDrBillyBob | 03.14.05 - 7:59 pm | #

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/...ting/ gothic.htm
rudi | 03.14.05 - 8:00 pm | #

Think I can just make out the name
"One Eyed Willie" on the first one.
goslow | 03.14.05 - 8:01 pm | #

side two says: "8 acres of land and , , , "

Yup. looks like High German, alright.
YIKES | 03.14.05 - 8:04 pm | #

german? swiss?

hmmm, would that make it chocolate?
Morrigan | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 8:04 pm | #

John: It is most likely a grant deed or a mortgage. I have a large framed Mortgage document that was hand scrivened in the 1600s and it is similar in format...although in English.
So Cal Guy | 03.14.05 - 8:04 pm | #

My work lives on!
Mark Hoffman | 03.14.05 - 8:04 pm | #

John,

Send me an email. I think help might be closer to home than you know.
Your Neighbor Barbara | 03.14.05 - 8:06 pm | #

At the very minimum, whether your documents are forgeries or not, the language is clearly related to the English language, with many characters essentially identical to letters in the English alphabet. I'd guess that the Old Germanic theory is a good possibility.
Dan Gronlie | 03.14.05 - 8:07 pm | #

It is clearer if you invert the colors.
The back side has April 8 1609 in clear letters and after a few lines on numbers there is "8 acres of land" and farther down "a yard" which could be cloth.
No idea of front
Loco Lobo | 03.14.05 - 8:09 pm | #

It isn't mirrored writing at all. It appears to be old English. I think I can make out a few words here and there, like "kings", possibly "margins". And "et", written with a tall "e", which means "and" (appears at least twice in the last line of side one; that writing gave rise to the modern "&" sign). The main problem I have is that English was spelled very differently back then.
Fab | 03.14.05 - 8:11 pm | #

Hi Yatdave, it was a shop in the French Quarter or whatever it's called. Nice shop, lots of old maps and stuff.
John Aravosis | 03.14.05 - 8:14 pm | #

OT: SSS gearing up for draft?

http://www.commondreams.org/head...s05/0312- 02.htm
Wouje | 03.14.05 - 8:16 pm | #

It's Jeff Gannon's latest Talon News article.
Ted | 03.14.05 - 8:16 pm | #

The back side seems to be acknowledgment of the sale of 8 acres:

8 April 1690

[?] [Laws?] admission to 8a: of Land [?] on

[Sw?] order of sd John Newton

[?] 5 - 6

[?] - 2 - 1

8 acres of Land and 7 Doles of

[?] in the [west?] Meadow and

[along?] being a yard of meadow.

=====

A Dole was "Slip of Pasture left between the Furrows of Plough'd Lands."

Notice the backwards cursive "e," as in "Newton" and "Doles" --- I am familiar with a person of French descent writing their "e" that way in 1750s, but I don't know if that was peculiar to the French or not.

Some words on the front seem English, others ???
Anon | 03.14.05 - 8:18 pm | #

English
unpoetaloco | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 8:19 pm | #

If it is a mortgage, hopefully the underlying property is located in Crawford, Texas. It would nice to foreclose and evict the present resident.
So Cal Guy | 03.14.05 - 8:19 pm | #

It is a deed to a parcel of 8 acres of land. Written in Olde English from 8 April 1690
Brian Hamilton | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 8:20 pm | #

Don't know about the front, but the back looks like English to me, also. I can make out "8 acres of land and" and "a yard of meadow" in the second paragraph. Also the date 8 April, 1690. I also saw 1690 on the front.

As far as the front is concerned, maybe Prussian? That's a complete stab in the dark, however.
Kinchyle | 03.14.05 - 8:21 pm | #

I think its a mix of some german/saxon language and latin. Maybe dutch or flemish. (This was not unusual in written documents. It might have been unusual in LEGAL documents, maybe, though.)

I can definitely make out distinct Latin words such as "in" "et" "debit" "inter", and a lot of words that end with "-it" and "-et" (a common-third-person singular conjugation inflection in Latin). but there are also some things that just dont look like latin, like the letter "y", if thats in fact what it is. it could be a combination of English and latin, perhaps? the back certainly looks like English.

Try finding a French or a German historian at a university. And take them to lunch if they'll agree to look at it. At least they'll have had more experience with script of this type, and recognizing languages.
Dave | 03.14.05 - 8:22 pm | #

Whoops. Sorry about the double post.
Kinchyle | 03.14.05 - 8:22 pm | #

Old dutch/flemish
de Vries | 03.14.05 - 8:24 pm | #

It's a cookbook!
Scooter | 03.14.05 - 8:24 pm | #

John,

I'm sure there are paleographers at Georgetown. Or any philologist--who has to take a course in paleography--would be able to read it for you.
unpoetaloco | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 8:25 pm | #

John,

It's at least 300 years old, and is made of vellum, a fine parchment made from the skin of a calf or young sheep which has been scraped on one side. You can tell from the very obvious "wrong side", which is the back. Vellum was used up till the end of the 18th century. It was also often re-used, as it was expensive to produce and extremely durable. The old writing would be shaved off - often, images of the original writing will be visible as a palimpsest.

Your piece is a legal document, identifying at least two people, [Witto?] Whitwell (4th line) and Thomas Persivell (5th line).

The old script is very difficult for any modern eyes to read anyway, and the photograph bleeds out some of the calligraphy. But it's either Latin (my guess) or some form of German.

Your best bet is to take it to a University department of Medieval Studies and find someone that can translate it. It certainly appears real enough; why would anyone bother to forge such a thing?
Louise | 03.14.05 - 8:25 pm | #

Yeah it looks like a mix on the front- old-styled (but not Old, or Middle) English or German finishing in some of that great medieval legal Latin that still shows up in formal wills, etc?

I see the name Thomas Portiveill (?) repeated on the front. I have no clue what that means.
J Carolina | 03.14.05 - 8:26 pm | #

What is the material it's written on; it looks like skin on the back side.
Laura | 03.14.05 - 8:28 pm | #

Written in Olde English from 8 April 1690


English had already passed into the modern era by 1690. The usual beginning year for the modern period is 1600.

Chaucer is Middle English. Old English is 7 - 12 centuries.
unpoetaloco | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 8:28 pm | #

It looks like medieval Latin. I know enough classical Latin to recognise that it has a lot of Latin forms, adverbs and inflections.

But the specific vocabulary (and occasionally, letters like `w') are not classical, which makes me suspect late Latin, after the Germans began to corrupt it.

It is *NOT* written backwards.
Andrew A. Gill | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 8:28 pm | #

looks like a few words in French, plus you have to look at the way certain capital letters are formed, very different from script nowadays, but the words remain the same.
Robb H | 03.14.05 - 8:28 pm | #

It is German for sure. They used to like to use Fs for Ss.
Paul | 03.14.05 - 8:29 pm | #

If you have ever seen the lord of the rings movies, it looks like elvish writing, like on the wring.

maybe some gaelic type thing, i have no idea, but it really does look like the writing from the ring in lord of the rings.
JayBabe | 03.14.05 - 8:29 pm | #

Thanks, Louise!
Laura | 03.14.05 - 8:30 pm | #

I like what Dave said.
Andrew A. Gill | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 8:31 pm | #

URGENT!!!

THE POWER OF THE BLOGOSPHERE NEEDS TO BE APPLIED TO THESE MATTERS IMMEDIATELY!

THIS IS ALL-CAPS-WORTHY...

IF YOU HAVE NOT BEEN TO BRADBLOG.COM LATELY, YOU REALLY MUST READ THIS ENTRY & COMMENTS...

http://www.bradblog.com/archives/ 00001243.htm#comments

I DARE SAY THIS IS AS BIG IF NOT BIGGER THAN GUCKERTGATE..

IN SHORT, NEW INFORMATION HAS COME TO LIGHT ABOUT THE CURTIS/YANG/FEENEY E-VOTE RIGGING MATTERS...

INCLUDING PHOTOS OF WHAT APPEARS TO BE A STAGED SUICIDING OF FDOT IG INSPECTOR RAYMOND C. LEMME...

THE COMMENTERS ARE FINDING OUT ALL KINDS OF INFO, INCLUDING THE FACT THAT THE VALDOSTA, GA POLICE DEPT. HAS A HISTORY OF COVER-UPS...

INCLUDING THE SUICIDING OF AN OFFICER'S GIRLFRIEND THAT DATELINE AND COURT TV HAVE BOTH COVERED...

Court TV: Cops on Trial - Scapegoat or Murderer? Georgia vs. Cassotta (1996)

THIS COULD DESTROY FEENEY, FDOT/JEB BUSH CRONIES, AND MORE...

LEMME HAD SAID HIS FINDINGS WENT "ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP", AND WAS FOUND DEAD A WEEK LATER...

THIS IS NOT HYPE...
URGENT!!! | 03.14.05 - 8:31 pm | #

Paul--

The elongated s is very common, and you can find it on our very own U.S. Constitution, or integral notation.

If they used a beta for two `s'es, maybe.
Andrew A. Gill | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 8:33 pm | #

The back is definitly english. It is a land title of some sort; the word land is clearly legible while the numbers appear to refer to acres. For the front, I THINK is Medieval French/Latin. I think you really should with a University language specialist. It does look like the material the writing is on is genuine parchment. Genuine parchment was made from the hide of animals, usually sheep. It certainly doesn't look like paper.
ghostcatbce | 03.14.05 - 8:33 pm | #

It would be great if it was the "Rosetta stone" to the Voynich Manuscript. It would be worth something then, alright.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich

http://www.voynich.nu/
Nunya | 03.14.05 - 8:33 pm | #

FIXED THE TYPO IN THE LINK...

http://www.bradblog.com/ archives...43.htm#comments

PLEASE FORWARD TO OTHERS!
URGENT!!! | 03.14.05 - 8:33 pm | #

At least part of it is written in Latin.
RinW | 03.14.05 - 8:34 pm | #

the last bits on the first page are definitely latin in germanic script. I can clearly make out on the tail end of the 2nd to last line "servit inde prius debit .... .... ... juro .... et" bla bla bla.
anonymous bosch | 03.14.05 - 8:34 pm | #

Dave is right: mix of some german/saxon language and latin.

I can also make out the name: Thomas Periveill several times on the front.
Brian Hamilton | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 8:35 pm | #

On the front I can see several English words:

Thomas Periwell of Willis [this phrase at least twice]

[defend?] to John Newton [?] 8 [?] rodds in

plus or minus

meadows of [alde--]

assign infer [?] of a print [?] Kings

or fine [front?] put in margin [&?] admission if not acnow [&?] for
Anon | 03.14.05 - 8:39 pm | #

language specialist = philologist,
who have to study paleography = old writing

Look on Georgetown's website, go to foreign or modern languages, which is where French philologists will be, and go to the English department and look for an English philologist. Send your photos to them, and they'll be able to tell you.

There is definitely Latin and English on the main text folio.

Honestly, I used to transcribe medieveal Spanish manuscripts in graduate school, and they were more legible to me than this.
unpoetaloco | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 8:40 pm | #

"...we are the Aqua Teens, make the homies say ho, make the girlies wanna scream..."
Happenstance | 03.14.05 - 8:40 pm | #

On the Document.
I agree with "Fab" about 1/2 way up.
Date is " 8 April 1690" and it seems to be a transfer of land and something else to someone. I suspect it was written by a "lawyer?" or educated person who wrote in "old English" but put in a bit of Latin, as I see a lot of "ET" ( old english T's and F's all look alike) Have some college prof's in old antiquities check it out. Could be worth a few hundred or more.
Or.. it could be a scam... but then, the Dead Sea Scrolls were being sold for lamp shades... so it's worth checking out.

.
Chuck | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 8:40 pm | #

Indeed, happenstance, indeed.

I see a Jesuitical conspiracy being unravell'd.
Catholic Jackson | 03.14.05 - 8:42 pm | #

April 8, 1690.

It could only be one thing -- the original whois entry for talonnews.com.

Eberle is of Germanic origin, isn't it?
MKT | 03.14.05 - 8:44 pm | #

(serious now)

On the back, beware the "e" that looks like an "o"--if the stroke CROSSES the circle, it's an "e."

Second paragraph: "8 acres of land and 7 ("bales?") of meadows in the west meadow and (number?) ... ... being a yard of meadow."

The rest makes my eyes hurt.
Happenstance | 03.14.05 - 8:46 pm | #

These scrolls are actually very easy to read. Just turn them inside out and then upside down. Then look at them through a mirror, with your left eye slightly squinted. They detail how to find a unicorn.
sj | 03.14.05 - 8:47 pm | #

I think you may have located the original TANG documents! Could these have been produced on an IBM Selectric II...I don't see any superscript here...
IAS | 03.14.05 - 8:48 pm | #

Can we please stop saying Old English. The period known as Old English existed from the 7 to 11th century.

Middle English, which can be divided into early, middle and late, ended about 1500 (or 1600).

Then Modern English began. If the manuscript is from 1690, it's in the Modern period.

The legible English on one side may be a brief description of what is on the other side.
unpoetaloco | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 8:53 pm | #

It appears to be the minutes of Dick Cheney's Energy Task Force. It's Farsi and Persian.
BostonGemini | 03.14.05 - 8:55 pm | #

Looks like an early USA Next mass mailing to me
Heimyankel | 03.14.05 - 8:56 pm | #

Probably Arcadian in origin. Land deed. Legal document. Pidgin combination of languages, typical of the mid to late 17th century in the Americas. Likely to be recorded in ante-bellum plantation documents in New Orleans' city archives. Little if any commercial value. A fun exercise for paleographers and geneologists.
Indigo | 03.14.05 - 8:57 pm | #

I may be suffering from eye strain, but I swear I can pick out french words. Maybe old French Canadian?
Joshua Norton | 03.14.05 - 8:58 pm | #

The front is incredibly debased and abbreviated lawyers' argot of Latin and Norman French; the proper names sound Dutch (where not Latinized). I suspect the summary on the back gives the game away: it's a grant deed for land of some sort.
Faber | 03.14.05 - 8:59 pm | #

"It appears to be the minutes of Dick Cheney's Energy Task Force. It's Farsi and Persian"

LOL I agree, except Farsi is Persian, which is also spoken n Afghanistan.
unpoetaloco | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 8:59 pm | #

the proper names sound Dutch

It looks like a some documents I came across when researching New Amsterdam, but it became New York in 1664. The 1690 date throws me.
Joshua Norton | 03.14.05 - 9:02 pm | #

I think it's referring to Thomas Parnell of Wight. He patented land in Isle of Wight, Virginia in 1682 but forfeited it by 1690, the year that the tract was regranted to one William Fowler
Brian Hamilton | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 9:04 pm | #

Doh! I didn't know the difference, but thought maybe Farsi was spoken in Iraq and Persian in Iran. What the heck, all part of the U.S. of the Middle East if some have their way!
BostonGemini | 03.14.05 - 9:05 pm | #

"It's a cookbook!"
Scooter...tee-hee, that one made me chuckle.
Cheetos | 03.14.05 - 9:06 pm | #

Here's more: 1679 Isle of Wight, Virginia

Parnell, Thomas - patent 21 Jan 1679 - IoW VA - 150 Ac. ( PB7 pg 18) Situate in a Forke between the second and third swamp of the main Blackwater.

Parnell was apparently a land buyer down south in that era.
Brian Hamilton | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 9:07 pm | #

John,

Did the dealers say how they had acquired the document? The date 1690 would pre-date the founding of the city of New Orleans. Nonetheless, the good people at the Historic New Orleans Collection are generally very friendly and willing to help. Perhaps someone there could shed some light? Dunno. But e-mailing a photo's pretty cheap, so you've got nothing to lose. :)
yatdave | 03.14.05 - 9:09 pm | #

It looks a lot like an old court summons, could be written in Cagun-French, get in touch with one of the museums in New Oleans they should be able to give you an idea of what it is and what it says.
TruthTeller | 03.14.05 - 9:11 pm | #

Whatever it is, John, let us know when you find out for sure.
LurkingVariable | 03.14.05 - 9:14 pm | #

The language on the back is definitely English. The language on the front is definitely Latin based so it is nor German. It doesn't look Spanish or Italian. That leaves French. The penmanship is terrible.
richfield | 03.14.05 - 9:15 pm | #

Whatever it is, John, let us know when you find out for sure.

And what lovely consolation prizes we won.
Joshua Norton | 03.14.05 - 9:15 pm | #

If you look closely you'll see this:

". . . I be less than half but substantially more than a cubit - cut. A half-weight of silver be yur ticket to ride."
Walter Neff | 03.14.05 - 9:19 pm | #

Without reading any of the previous comments--I'd guess some kind of old Latin.
Reader | 03.14.05 - 9:21 pm | #

this site might help:
http://www.cyndislist.com/handwrit.htm
xeric | 03.14.05 - 9:22 pm | #

It's definitely Gothic script. I don't know it well enough to be able to read the whole thing, but the language is medieval Latin. No-one spoke it any longer but Roman law countries like France were using it for legal documents well into the 1600s. The Louisiana colony was probably not well-supplied with Latinists so it's probably not very good Latin.

I think the large letters at the top left hand corner are a recital of royal tiles that starts "maximum' greatest and ends 'regis' of the king. Latin is heavy with case-endings like German or Russian, but this stuff tended to leave out the case endings because often the author did not know what the case endings meant and was copying letter for letter from an older example.
Alan | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 9:25 pm | #

If you recognize the code, skipping every other letter, it says:

"Hurt me, give it to me hard, big boy. Break me in half."
YIKES | 03.14.05 - 9:26 pm | #

John:

It's the agreement for the Louisiana purchase. Can we keep New Orleans and sell the rest back?
Exbaptist | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 9:32 pm | #

I'll set my literary friends on it! One thing I did notice was the apparent use of ff or double f, which I've seen in medieval english and is used to represent "s". I agree it looks like high german, and wonder about anglo saxonish...I'll keep thinking when I have a better screen at home.
Shrink in SF | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 9:32 pm | #

Leave it up a couple days, please. I have an Austrian friend who's spent a lot of time in colonial archives around the world, including Holland, Spain, Portugal and Latin America. (His specialty is the colonial slave trade, but it doesn't matter.) I'll show it to him next time he stops by. I'll wager good money he can read it.
cadejo4 | 03.14.05 - 9:33 pm | #

You have to remember that in 1690, New Orleans didn't even exist. It was founded around 1718. There were French fur traders in the area, but that's about it.

This document may have anything to do with New Orleans considering there would not have been many literate people, if any, in the area around 1690.

I am definitely seeing French, et (and) de (of, from)... but there is also Latin, especially the beginning and the end, which makes sense. There were usually "formulae" for beginning and ending documents.

I also just read on the penultimate line, "et servir" which means "and to serve," then something about "orbit."

1690 is mentioned on both sides.
unpoetaloco | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 9:35 pm | #

skimming down, i have to comment that what is really fun is reading all of your guesses. i'm on dial-up and thought i'd just read to see the concensus. there is none so far...

this thread is an important lesson in and of itself, a metaphor for human perception. fascinating.
chicago dykesquito | 03.14.05 - 9:35 pm | #

The first one seems like it is written in Latin. I recognized an "et" towards the bottom. My guess on that one is since you bought it in N.O., it is likely written in a provincial Latin, perhaps a church document of some kind.

For the second one, it is English, believe it or not. You can see one line reads: "8 acres of land and 7 d... of ..."

In any event, John, I would recommend you contact the Bexar County archives, send them these files, and they can probably tell you right off the bat what they are and maybe what they say.

Their contact info is:

cityslic@ix.netcom.com

Linda Russell Lewis, Coordinator of the USGenWeb Archives

Hopefully she can point you in the right direction.

I hope this information helped! :)
James | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 9:36 pm | #

It's the first draft of the Republican plan for Social Security overhaul.
gator | 03.14.05 - 9:37 pm | #

I agree with kynchel way up near the top, and a few others. It's dated April 8, 1690 and does refer to some acreage and meadow. How neat! Do let us know what you find out about it. Hope it's not a fake.
shyguy | 03.14.05 - 9:42 pm | #

How much did you pay for it? Perhaps you can get in touch with Antiques Road Show and it will be very valuable.
Reader | 03.14.05 - 9:43 pm | #

It's the first draft of the Republican plan for Social Security overhaul.

Ironically, it's the latest one, too.
Joshua Norton | 03.14.05 - 9:44 pm | #

i would think, after reading all the above and looking at the document, that it is in a mix of dutch, french mid 1600's legalese, with names in yet other languages. Probably is a discharged deed or lien because of the margin notes, a process still done today. I like the idea above to contact the New Orleans Historical Society; I would also consider advice of a paralegal who does deed title searches for a living. Visits to the Regstrar of Deeds can be a fun field trip.
Gregarious Burns | 03.14.05 - 9:44 pm | #

New Orleans was acquired with the Louisiana Purchase, and Robert Livingston of NY was one of the US diplomats that negotiated with Napoleon.

At one time NY, was a Dutch colony, and many of the court documents were written in Dutch. This practice continued long after the English took over New York. (everyone still spoke Dutch.)

It's a long shot, but the document you have may have come from Livingston in NY and may be written in old Dutch.

I suggest you contact Charles T. Gehring, Historian and Translator of New York Colonial Dutch Documents at the NY State Museum.

Some information about Gehring is available at http://www.ulster.net/~hrmm/half...oon/ gehring.htm
Ken Panza | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 9:45 pm | #

I also think (second side) it has something to do with John Nowlan or Nawlan. Maybe he paid his rent?
shyguy | 03.14.05 - 9:45 pm | #

Charles T. Gehring, Historian and Translator of New York Colonial Dutch Documents at the NY State Museum.

He was one of my sources, too. He is very erudite on the subject, having translated many of the original documents.
Joshua Norton | 03.14.05 - 9:48 pm | #

I'm pretty sure it's latin, not classical but some kind of church latin or possibly legal latin. I see the same name rendered two ways. First as "Oliffe Regis" and later in the text as "Kings Oliffe." I can make out "octavo die Aprilio" which is the eighth day of April.

"Et servir in deprimo debit" seems to refer to a mortgage debt, although deprimo means low-lying. This may be an idiom. The last line says "dat duis di fini prout pertin margino"
"give (or pay) . . . until the end just as pertaining to the border," or something like that.

Duis doesn't make any sense to me here, unless it is a form of dum and means "while." But that seems unlikely.
Eligere | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 9:53 pm | #

The 1st and 2nd sides may have nothing to do with each other if it is true that they scraped down the vellum.

And Congrats you adults can all recongnize the latin word for "and"!
Kimberly | 03.14.05 - 9:55 pm | #

.

It's Elvish...


The first line reads:

"ONE BLOG TO RULE THEM ALL"

www.AMERICABLOG.com


It then rambles on about Orchids for what seems like forever :)

_
Johnny Gosch | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 9:57 pm | #

I find it unlikely that it is a deed that was ORIGINALLY from New Orleans, as it wasn't explored until April 1682 by Le Salle, and founded around 1718. But maybe it is a document from another area?
James | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 10:00 pm | #

I agree to the old english. maybe an antiquated german (or friesian) but it is too similar to english (see the english words) for me to think it is German.
McMike | 03.14.05 - 10:00 pm | #

The only thing I have been able to figure out is the name Persiveill is of Norman French and Celtic origin, and the variants are Parcevell Parcivall Parcivell Parsevall Parsevell Pearcivall Percevall Percillus Percivell Percivellus Percyvelus Persevell Persivell.

A lot of help that does, but it kept me busy. LOL
unpoetaloco | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 10:01 pm | #

Germanic script on the front. Confusing though. I see English, Latin, French and German. Maybe what I am look for. Get back to you.
tsuki@gnt.net | 03.14.05 - 10:01 pm | #

Thanks, John, I haven't had this much fun in ages!
mikey | 03.14.05 - 10:07 pm | #

Again with the Old English...by 1690, English was already in the modern period.

When the Normans invaded England in the 11th century, the English had not yet been influenced by French. The English leading up to that time was referred to as Old English. After the Norman invasion, English began to be influenced heavily by French, which is when most French words such as table, face, people, pen, purse, cat, blah, blah, blah, were introduced.

Educated people spoke French. French was spoken at court. It was the legal language. French, however, never replaced English. It only amplified it.

Why am I rambling? I guess because I keep reading people throw around Old English without any real idea of what Old English was.

I have read late 16th and early 17th century English manuscripts and facsimiles, and they are much easier to read than this.

Again, Georgetown should have a philologist that can tell you what it is.
unpoetaloco | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 10:10 pm | #

Stay tooned for next week's episode:

Decifering the Dead Sea Scrolls!

Same bat time, same bat channel!
James | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 10:10 pm | #

I can make out "regis" on the first page, right off the bat. Methinks it's in Olde English script, written in Latin.
derek | 03.14.05 - 10:12 pm | #

Ye Olde Englishe Shoppe Scripte ine Latine


MEDIUM IS ON!!!! i'll ask her. :-)
unpoetaloco | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 10:14 pm | #

Again with the Old English

Thanks for holding the line, unpoetaloco- keeps my Old English prof from spinning in his grave, god bless his smutty soul.
J Carolina | 03.14.05 - 10:16 pm | #

Can you imagine the replies that you'd get from a FReeper site?

"it must be a fag heathen document. If it were christian, it would be in good old US of A English, the language Jesus spoke."
Joshua Norton | 03.14.05 - 10:17 pm | #

It also says that Edmund Blackadder owes me a chicken.
derek | 03.14.05 - 10:17 pm | #

script has some Latin endings for sure...but then there seems to be english and german interspersed...
elizabetta | 03.14.05 - 10:18 pm | #

It's GW talking points for the day.
USAF vet. | 03.14.05 - 10:21 pm | #

I don't think this is pertinent, but I googled "Thomas Percival" and one site noted he was an English actor in the 1600s. Well, FWIW:
http://www.nwe.ufl.edu/~pcraddoc...doc/ table1.html
shyguy | 03.14.05 - 10:24 pm | #

It is the only original text known to be written by James Guckert under the name of Jeff Gannon. Something about "8 inch ... cut ... top ..."
dad | 03.14.05 - 10:26 pm | #

Thanks for holding the line, unpoetaloco- keeps my Old English prof from spinning in his grave, god bless his smutty soul.

I took a Medieval English lit course, but we read modern transcriptions, not translations.

I hate the Peer's Plowman.

Anyway, I studied Hispanic Philology, and as I said earlier, I read medieval Spanish manuscripts all day long, 14th century, and had little problem. For one, medieval manuscripts were not as stylized. The script was much more standardized, and there were standard abreviations.

The script of John's manuscript is a precursor to cursive, which is always harder to read.
unpoetaloco | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 10:27 pm | #

I'm so tickled that Brian Hamilton and Andrew A Gill liked what I said.
Dave | 03.14.05 - 10:30 pm | #

It's an early draft of that "Milkshake" Song, here is the final draft:

http://nurit.forotech.com/bring.jpg

:)
James | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 10:31 pm | #

Go to the National Archives and have someone read it over. They and other museums have staff document experts who can read it to you. It looks like a very stylish cursive handwriting common in the 1600-late 1700's and could be many things. Since paper was so expensive and people only semi literate, it would be a document of importance to someone such as a legal document of property or a will. Check for dates. They should be easiest to find and read. Then have it authenticated. It looks real good to me. Do you have a provenance? Bring all that you know with you. You live in DC. I would avail yourself of the expertise of your town. :-D Its lovely no matter what.
Catherine | 03.14.05 - 10:32 pm | #

The back says:

8 April, 1690
____ admission to 8 A: of land ___: on surrender of John Nowlan.
___-5-6
___-2-1
8 acres of land and 7 dales of meadows in the west? meadowlands, being a yard of meadow

____ Richardson as to the meadow
Eligere | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 10:33 pm | #

I recognize an abundance of Latin words on the "indecipherable" side, with what LOOKS like French here and there as well. There is one Latin phrase toward the bottom that I can see a few consecutive words:

reddit et servir inde prius debit:

"he/she/it gave it (I can't find the object here, it's hard to read) back first and it ought to be mortgaged thereafter"

Somebody check my grammar, its been a while.

My guess is the bill of sale of a plot of land, which fits the Isle of Wight Hypothesis. I've seen a lot of medieval Latin, but nothing with so many confusing (French?) words tossed around it.
sparkwidget | 03.14.05 - 10:36 pm | #

The front page is Latin in a late medieval script with all sorts of abbreviations and symbols as was usual in legal documents and even books of the period.

I hate this stuff and it has been awhile but I would say that it is English from the 14th century but I don't have my paleography stuff here. And I repeat I hate reading this stuff.
No one would bother faking a minor document like this.
One can never be sure how tightly the front and back are connected. It looks like a later script so it may be an archivist noting what the Latin on the front says.

There is certain to be some medievalist in DC who is good at paleography.
I'm not. I said I hate this stuff.
Mark | 03.14.05 - 10:36 pm | #

Looks like archaic Dutch to me (which would also account for the copious use of French and Latin).
digitalprimate | 03.14.05 - 10:37 pm | #

Here's my guess: It's british. Side two is a common translation of side one (both dated 1690; side one refers to ottavo die Aprilis). It's not a land grant, but some sort of contract for land use (think serfdom) to care for 8 (otto) acres of land and 7 (septum) doles with reference to what a yard of meadow is (a non-standard reference to a quantity of acreage). It's not "to have" but to work and to use: "ad opus et usum" (google that phrase and you'll see). The land is in Whitwell.
Gitte | 03.14.05 - 10:40 pm | #

I believe Oliffe or Olliffe is an Irish name.
Eligere | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 10:41 pm | #

I'm a medievalist (nearly: should have the PhD sometime next year). I've also had some training (as in, a semester, and whatever I'd had to use since then) in paleography, but my training has been in Gothic scripts and earlier. Your document, on the other hand, seems to have come from some kind of nasty Anglicana or some other late medieval chancery hand.

As everyone said above, it's not old English. Or even Middle English. If it's English at all, it's Modern English. There are definitely bits of Latin in it. It's not French.

And then the date on the back. What I noticed immediately is that the script on the back in not the same as the script on the front. That doesn't mean anything, necessarily. The script on the front could be a legal hand being used by the same scribe who wrote on the back (scribes worth their salt knew many different scripts that would be uesd for different purposes).

I did notice, also, towards the bottom a name that seems to be "Egidius," i.e., Giles. The word after it COULD be "Lewis," but I could just be wrong. I don't have time to decipher this document (see diss., above), and even if it were medieval, which it isn't, it'd probably be outside my expertise.

You're in DC. Take it to one of them there American museums you have.
Karl the Idiot | 03.14.05 - 10:43 pm | #

If the new anchor at CBS weighs in on this and presents it on the air, you know it's something Karl Rove had made up...
gaymafioso | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 10:46 pm | #

This is a kickass little problem btw, John. Time to hit it with the UV light and see what the real deal is.

They did that to the original Beowulf years ago, which showed where monks had made their own editorial changes to a perfectly good read. Not that any of us ever sat around translating the erasures for course credit or anything.

And of course, a UV light could tell us if there was indeed a Gannon connection. ;)
J Carolina | 03.14.05 - 10:47 pm | #

Okay, I'll chime in, again, briefly:

I hate this stuff and it has been awhile but I would say that it is English from the 14th century but I don't have my paleography stuff here.

It's definitely not from 14th-century England. Go to the paleography site in the link in my above post. I'm confident that this isn't medieval.
Karl the Idiot | 03.14.05 - 10:47 pm | #

I changed my mind. Now I see the 1690 in the text on the front. And the script does look later than what I first said.
I am trying to read William and Mary into the heading with limited success. Regius (from Rex) is scattered throughout.
But I am sure that the w's are people's names throughout the text. I'm not sure how many 17th century experts are up on their Latin so you are still better off finding a medievalist.
Not me, I hate this stuff.
Mark | 03.14.05 - 10:52 pm | #

Could the last two words before the signitures of the witnesses (?) be "fer fidei," as in, "bear witness to the truth [of what's stated above]?

Seems likely.

The trick, John, is just to figure out what 17th-century deeds normally said, since it seems that, if the last 2 words are "fer fidei," they're probably formulaic. If you have know that, so far as I understand it, reading these things sort of happens automatically, and all you have to decipher are the proper nouns (which might be part of the reason that many of the proper nouns -- Thomas Perziveill and Egidius, for example -- are easier to make out than the rest).

If I say anything more, I'll just be talking out my ass. Back to work for me.
Karl the Idiot | 03.14.05 - 11:01 pm | #

It's my spare copy of Mein Kampf. Give it back or I'll send over the helicopters again.
Karl Roverer | 03.14.05 - 11:03 pm | #

Let's see...that looks like Old Rlyiac to me...let's just try and sound it out:

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

In his house at Rlyeh, dead Cthulhu lies dreaming...

my god, oh my god...the thing in the darkness, it's here, it's here, it's...
Teaser | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 11:04 pm | #

You people fascinate me. I knew there'd be people out there who were up on this, no matter how esoteric an expertise this is.

The guy I bought it from in New Orleans had no clue what it was, but he did say he bought it from someone else. So I suspect it may not be "from" there. Another linguist I had look at it did think the front and back were from different periods - as someone else noted, that the document dated back more medieval for the front and then was reused against many years later on the other side to save paper. I'll try some of the sources you guys suggested, this is fascinating!
John Aravosis | 03.14.05 - 11:04 pm | #

a Team Of Experts consisting of a librarian, a philosopher, and me have the following suggestion: it's "Legal French" on the front, a highly-stylized dialect of Norman French which experienced a resurgence in English legal documents from 1660 to 1731. http://www.languageandlaw.org/NATURE.HTM has some brief information on it.
Anonymous | 03.14.05 - 11:08 pm | #

Ok I asked a friend who asked a friend who works in a library in Edinburgh and I *THINK* I can tell you what language style it is written in judging by the date and the mix of French and Latin. Legal French was used by the english after the Restoration (the reign of Charles II). If it is Law French, its probably English or Norman.

I can't translate most of it. At least this gives you an idea where to look for a translator.

It'll be hilarious if you end up owning some piece of land because of this.
sparkwidget | 03.14.05 - 11:08 pm | #

It's a Nostradamus scripture talking about how Bush is going to explode the world.
anon | 03.14.05 - 11:09 pm | #

(in which case, we read the upper left as "Marium de Wille Regis")
Anonymous | 03.14.05 - 11:09 pm | #

Actually, I think it's Kings Cliffe, rather than Kings Oliffe. There is a Kings Cliffe in
Peterborough, Northamptonshire.

Gitte, where are you seeing Whitwell?
Eligere | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 11:11 pm | #

The mixture of English, French, Latin, Germanic, etc. on the front can be explained by the use of Pidgin language.

A pidgin language is a language that is developed by a diverse group of speakers who come into contact with each other and otherwise share no common language. They have to develop a language that is completely unique in order to communicate. There are no "native" speakers of a pidgin language.

This is not to be confused with a "creole" language, which is a language that develops from contact between speakers of different languages and serves as the primary means of communication for a particular group of speakers. A creole language can have native speakers.

New Orleans at this time was a melting pot of cultures and languages and it would only follow that some sort of pidgin would be used.

p.s. - I'm studying this stuff for a mid-term in Linguistics in the morning! Glad I could keep up with Americablog and study too!
somadude | 03.14.05 - 11:14 pm | #

Law latin, definitely; look at the word 'seizen' near the bottom. Some form of conveyance. (or try seisin)
chris | 03.14.05 - 11:14 pm | #

One thing fer sure: The group which visits this blog is diverse, talented, driven, curious and motivated. :) Remember... "The world is run by the people who show up"

Thanks, John--that was a fun thing to tingle my brain on an otherwise normal day!
Brian Hamilton | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 11:16 pm | #

John, by all means, be a guest on "Antique Roadshow"!!! That would be sweet. Plus we could all cheer for you when they tell you it's worth $1.4 million!
Fred | 03.14.05 - 11:25 pm | #

Yo John, it's a land transaction written in what I believe is a Frankish Latin. I once lived in New Orleans and these things would pop up now and then whenever a town clerk with a substance abuse problem needed a few bucks.

Steve Bunker
Steve Bunker | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 11:34 pm | #

i don't see any German in there...

but on the second row:

por oc(r)tavo die Aprilio
for the 8th day of April

what language used Aprilio?
Anonymous | 03.14.05 - 11:42 pm | #

It resembles a shipping document I know of that was written in an archaic version of one of the Dutch languages, Flemish or the like, that has been indecipherable to language experts across New York City.
The script is in a Germanic aspect but the verb forms seem Dutch.

just two cents

Tim
R. Tim Carnahan | 03.14.05 - 11:43 pm | #

John,

I'd agree with Ken Panza up above. My guess is this is a land transfer from the New York area a decade or so after the English took over from the Dutch. It wouldn't be surprising that a legal document from that time and place would combine english, middle dutch and latin.

Keep us posted on what you find out.
Smartypants | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 11:45 pm | #

On the side which has most of the writing (the front?) I think I can make out something in the fifth line (first line of "second paragraph"):

Right after "Thomas Pertzweill of Wi????" in the middle of the line it seems to say "Christophersons." It could be a possessive form.

One of the things complicating the deciphering is the fact that spelling and certain grammatical forms (such as how to make the possessive) had not been standardized yet.
K | 03.14.05 - 11:46 pm | #

You will let us know, won't you, John? (I love this kind of stuff.)
shyguy | 03.14.05 - 11:46 pm | #

And the librarian weighs in...

It looks Latin but isn't Latin, it looks medieval French but isn't that either, it has English names in it, that means almost certainly Law French.

(The reverse writing in English may be of a later generation - it's certainly in a different hand - but it's almost certainly discussing the same things; note the commonality of dates.)

It'll probably be marked with a regnal year; April 1690 was "2 Wm & Mary", "2 Will. 3", "2 Wm III", or some variant thereof. Hard to find an exact form of this, but there's a few words here and there that might be "Will et Maria", or "Will Regis", or something similar. It's all these vertical strokes... the start could be "2m annum do Wille Regis", for all I can tell.

It's almost certainly English, and almost certainly a deed of land, or a grant of land, or something related to this (possibly a settlement of a will?). I'm very unsure of this; it's not my field, by far. A check of the Parliamentary records and list of statutes shows it's not obviously related to anything from Parliament or any (private) Act of the time.

I guess your best bet is to pore over it until you find an identified placename; I suspect it's more likely to be a record from England than from the Colonies, though, considering the date and how specific the details on the back are. If it is colonial, it's certainly not native to New Orleans, though...
Andrew Gray | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 11:47 pm | #

Note: Sparkwidget is the philosopher in the Team of Experts. I'm the me.
St-Lemur | 03.14.05 - 11:53 pm | #

My first guess was a letter from one of Karl Rove's ancestors stating that people seeking independence from King George hated our troops and supported gay marriage - but the 1690 date precludes that.
RepubAnon | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 11:56 pm | #

I agree with others who say this has most likely nothing to do with the Louisiana area. Just because something is found in a given location does not mean its origin is local. Think of people who moved across oceans, then up and down the North American coastline, and eventually westward. People took things of value with them, or gave them to their descendents who then kept them in turn for either practical reasons, or reasons of sentiment or pride, etc.

Stuff turns up in the most unlikely places. There was (and still is, I think) a huge search for the royal belongings of the Hawaiian queen (dammit, can't remember her name) which had been auctioned off in Honolulu. Her belongings showed up all over the world! This is just an example, royalty isn't part of the equation here, just the way stuff migrates around the world in the oddest ways.
K | 03.14.05 - 11:58 pm | #

its all english. the front is just an exercise in poor spelling.
greyson knave | 03.14.05 - 11:59 pm | #

It's William and Mary. If you read the second line of the front, far to the right, you see the last three words are "Willi & Maria dei". This doesn't make much sense.

The first word of the next line is "gratia", though, which makes it "William and Mary, by the Grace of God" - which was the formal style of the monarch. The next part will be King and Queen of England, Scotland and Ireland, or something similar, then we hit "fidei defensor" - Defender of the Faith - which is the last part of the style as it was commonly written. Then something, "secundo anno", something 1690.

It's the preamble to a legal document of that date, all right.
Andrew Gray | Homepage | 03.15.05 - 12:07 am | #

[Not really witty at all comment for the non-language geeks among us to amuse ourselves:]

I can totally recreate that in Microsoft Word.
theyeti | Homepage | 03.15.05 - 12:08 am | #

Things like this pop up frequently in antique dealing. Sometimes they are very old, sometimes not. My own guess, from 35 years of buying and selling, is that this is something made in the 19th century that attempted to look much older. The nonsensical language on one side would be an attempt to imitate old calligraphy, sometimes called fraktur, the other might be genuinly old or simply a poor copy of something. What I notice is that the composition of the piece would lend itself to lining a box of some sort. The nonsense on one side with a small pullback where someone would move the piece away from the wall and LO AND BEHOLD find an ancient deed.

Things like this were sometimes done to various romantic revival furniture, particularly chests in the medieval taste. They appear to be lined with ancient paper, or leather, which has a romantic secret on the back. There never were many of these, but there were some. It also was a conceit of very expensive furniture.

Artists made them up to order, using vellum. The artists did not know much about old language forms and correct writing but they knew what it should look like.

Imagine this at the bottom of a jewelry box. Covered with a very thin silk. Heirs would look in and say: wow there's something written underneath the silk. Pull it out and suddenly think they had a land deed. Great practical joke to pull from the grave.

Anyway, that is my take on it. BTW, what size is this?
dalea | 03.15.05 - 12:15 am | #

You can work that last sentence back, to match up with "octavo di Aprili", so we get:

...octavo di Aprili Anno regni sui ... Willi & Maria ....

...eighth of April the reigning year of ... William and Mary, by the grace of God of [places] King and Queen, Defenders of the Faith, second year. (Then it includes "1690", to help us out...)
Andrew Gray | Homepage | 03.15.05 - 12:18 am | #

On the back the date is 8 April 1640. That is the first clue. This is writen in 17th Century English mixed with Latin. The spelling is non-standard from the standpoint of modern English. Additionally, fs is really two ss not fs are all. You need someone who is an antiquarian they usually can make short work of 17th Century English. My best gues is a grant of land propably in what is now the United States by William and Mary King and Queen of England during this period.
Greg | 03.15.05 - 12:19 am | #

I'd love to hear Camille Paglia's translation.
RinW | 03.15.05 - 12:19 am | #

You know, you live in DC where you can't throw a dead cat without hitting a museam or college. Make some calls and see if you can get any one from a museam collections department or history prof to take a look at it. And let us know what it is when you find out!
Sarah | 03.15.05 - 12:27 am | #

I just threw a dead cat, and only managed to hit the statue of the "Damn the Torpedoes" guy. Stupid DC!!!
sparkwidget | 03.15.05 - 12:29 am | #

My two cents, for what its worth.

As has been noted, law latin and ecclesiastical latin had some significant differences. Since this is not jumping off the page at me as completely understandable, I'm going to agree that it is legal language.

That being said, I might also make the suggestion that the person writing it...their first language was neither English nor Latin (well, noone's was...).

The church where I was ordained still has its first record book from the mid 17th c. in its posession. The earliest records of the church are in English, but the scribe learned to write in German first. How do we know? Because the script...the development of the letters matches much more closely the High German of the educated folks of the 17th c. than English script.

Also, remember that at the time, spelling was a much more fluid thing...remember that you can spell jail as gaol, and fish as ghoti in English.

I will look at this more closely tomorrow when my eyes don't hurt.
Jim Olson | Homepage | 03.15.05 - 12:29 am | #

If it's only 8 acres then it's not much of a royal grant, especially by American standards of the time.
St-Lemur | 03.15.05 - 12:40 am | #

dammit, I'm sorry I keep doubleposting
St-Lemur | 03.15.05 - 12:41 am | #

I don't remember the exact date, but the Acadians. (NOT Arcadians as someone else said) were forcibly removed from what is now Nova Scotia, Canada by the British. Many of them ended up in the area of what is now Louisiana. If this document came with the Acadians it would explain the mixture of languages AND the lousy penmanship. Most colonists weren't too well educated.
ghostcatbce | 03.15.05 - 12:44 am | #

{{{{{It's a cookbook!
Scooter | Email | Homepage | 03.14.05 - 8:24 pm | # }}}}}


classic
evil | 03.15.05 - 12:44 am | #

Can anyone read this sort of outdated script really well? Andrew, St Lemur, and I are struggling to translate it but we cant get some of the words straight. For instance, the big bold word that looks like "ADOPUE" in the lower right. What the hell is that? It sure isn't a Latin word. We've got to be reading it wrong. If you think you know what the script is, email one of us!
sparkwidget | 03.15.05 - 12:51 am | #

If this was written by Acadians, there wouldn't be references to the king of England in 1690, since Acadia was French until 1763. Furthermore, I have my doubts that many Acadians had names like "Thomas Percivaille" and "John Newton".
St-Lemur | 03.15.05 - 12:51 am | #

Thank you for an interesting break from reading about sex scandals, death, and child sex abuse by local politcians in Nebraska. Thank you for saying "sheepskin" because I got the creeps when I thought it might be human. I am now going to go take my lithium because I see things on that sheepskin that I'm not repeating. I am so impressed with all the very smart and clever people who wrote in. Where the hell were you people while GWB and his gang moved in? R.
Ruth Y. Cobb | 03.15.05 - 12:54 am | #

The major subfield of Linguistics under which this would probably fall is:

Historical Linguistics - The study of how languages change through time and the relationships among languages.

Damn - I'm gonna ace this linguistics midterm. Thanks John!
somadude | 03.15.05 - 12:54 am | #

Hi,
I honestly do not know. But I was doing a lot of genealogy research this past year and ran across old Welsh documents.

The writing in this document reminded me of what I saw in the old Welsh documents. The words were so different than anything I have ever seen. Usually with most languages you can kind of figure out what they are. I had never seen anything like the Welsh documents and they were very different than Irish or English documents of the same time period. They did remind me of the Elfin documents in the Lord of the Rings and the some of the words in this document kind of reminds me of those documents.
But I honestly don't know. Good luck. It really is fun trying to figure out old documents.
Also, aren't the Internet and the bloggs great?
Roxanne | 03.15.05 - 1:00 am | #

unpoetaloco...how do they say "RELAX" in Old English, Middle English or Modern English?
Jim | 03.15.05 - 1:07 am | #

Wow! this thread has turned out to be a seminar in historical linguistics--do we get college credit? Seriously, I am in awe of the knowledge base here tonight and how this problem has been approached from all angles. Sorry I couldn't contribute anything, and thanks to all who have given me some education tonight!
Ellie | 03.15.05 - 1:12 am | #

The front is definitely "Law Latin," which is a modified form of Latin that was used in English legal documents until a few centuries ago.

The back is definitely English.

But it's hard to make out the script.
cnyc | 03.15.05 - 1:13 am | #

...There was (and still is, I think) a huge search for the royal belongings of the Hawaiian queen (dammit, can't remember her name) which had been auctioned off in Honolulu. Her belongings showed up all over the world!...
It is Queen Lilioukalani, the much revered last reigning monarch of Hawaii.
Her story is tragic in the end, well worth checking out and too much to go into here...
Aloha Oe | 03.15.05 - 1:44 am | #

The front of the document carries some of the same aspects as middle English. Some of the words are similar to the ME used during the time of Chaucer. Worth a shot. Let us know what you uncover, very curious.

Great thread...
Gyweith Awel | 03.15.05 - 2:13 am | #

The back says:

8 April 1690

[illegible] admission to 8 a: of Land [illegible] on
Surrender of John Newton
[illegible] 5-6
[illegble]-2-1

8 acres of Land and 7 Dales of
meadow in the west meadow and
[illegible] being a yard of meadow

for [illegible] Richardson as to the
Meadow


As for the front:

The words "John Newton" and "West Meadow" appear on the front as well as the back. The name "Thomas Persivall" also appears a few times on the front.

It's very definitely Anglo-Latin ("Law Latin"), but I can't make out enough continuous text to make any sense of it, except to say that it looks like a legal document having to do with land. "Seizin" in the third to last line is an English legal term having to do with land. "Plus sive minus" ("more or less" in Latin) appears in parentheses a couple of times, which suggests an approximate description of quantity. If you Google the phrases "admissus est inde Tenens" (which appears in the last line), or "inde prius debit[a]" (which appears in the next to last line) you'll see that these are probably conventional phrases that were used in documents relating to land.
cnyc | 03.15.05 - 2:26 am | #

it's not adopue
it's ad opus et usum
Gitte | 03.15.05 - 2:26 am | #

Now I see. Starting from the boldface words, it says: "Ad opus et usum Egidii Leno hered[ibus] & assign[atis] suis in p[er]p[etua]m...." -- "for the use and benefit of Egidius Leno for his heirs and assigns in perpetuity". Words of a land conveyance.
cnyc | 03.15.05 - 3:01 am | #

Also, it contains the name "Kingscliffe" six lines up from the bottom, which might tell you where it's from, if it's real.
cnyc | 03.15.05 - 3:20 am | #

Thank you, Aloha Oe, for being so kind as to remind me of the name of Queen Lilioukalani. It was bothering me that I couldn't think of it -- age seems to be creeping up on me, and I don't like forgetting things like this one bit.

Funny thing is, I could (and can) see her face clearly in my mind's eye, having seen pictures of her on various occasions.

She was an amazingly strong and noble woman, admirable in so many ways. You are certainly right that her story was tragic. In fact, I think anyone with a heart who learns her story will find her to be a haunting figure.
K | 03.15.05 - 3:25 am | #

Looks like the original form of ebonics?
Anonymous | 03.15.05 - 3:31 am | #

It looks to be all in English or at worst in a pigeon/cajun English/French. On the main page at the bottom it says "fine print put in margins" and there's stuff about Kings and debit and service. There was a tug of war with the territory going on between the French and Spanish around this time. The French didn't get it officially until just after 1800, just in time to sell it to the US for $15 million.

In other words, it could very well be pigeon/cajun English or just English poorly written.
Egan Orion | 03.15.05 - 3:45 am | #

Gee, I stared at the document so long it began to look like a doctor's prescription made out to some pharmacy. That's it!! Some doctor wrote this.

Or,

It is actually a deed to some land, probably in New Orleans' area where you found it. Aha, it's the original land deed for the 50-yard-line at the Louisiana Superdome. My God, man, you have a goldmine in that document.

Or,

It gives you original title to the Meadowlands (based on the several references to "meadows").

Now, all you have to do is find (pay) someone at the local land-title office to certify it. Hey, one thing I have observed by watching the Bush Political Machine is that if one doesn't pay, then one doesn't get to play. But always get a receipt, because Bush has a short attention span deficit syndrome problem.
The Oracle | 03.15.05 - 3:47 am | #

This may help: a glossary of Latin terms used in manorial records circa 1700 can be found at http://www.keele.ac.uk/depts/hi/...urts/ voc04f.pdf
cnyc | 03.15.05 - 3:58 am | #

Old English
charley deppner | Homepage | 03.15.05 - 4:17 am | #

I suspect that roxanne may be on to something. I see elements that remind me of Welsh. For example, on the border is a word that looks like ffin, which is, oddly, Welsh for border. The name Oliffe is not strange to Wales. There is a place called Shipton Oliffe. The last Llwellynn was also called Oliffe (Olaf).
luigi | 03.15.05 - 4:20 am | #

Hi Luigi

I think that it says 'Cliffe' not 'Oliffe'. The front of the document 'Kings Cliffe' and 'Cliffe Regis' which are the same place name in Latin & English. As is mentioned by a poster above Kings Cliffe is a village in Northamptonshire in England, this document looks like a deed to an area of land around this village. Obviously can't vouch for it's authenticity.
Doors of Perception | 03.15.05 - 4:51 am | #

Yes, DoP, that makes sense. I've never seen a c like that, but there's also a c in there that looks like it has a cedilla. This could be a translator's nightmare.
luigi | 03.15.05 - 6:36 am | #

I think I'm beginning to understand why so many people have a visceral dislike of lawyers.
And am remembering that lawyers used to get paid by the "hang weight" of their work product.
LimaBN | 03.15.05 - 6:44 am | #

actually, Ebonics, or African-American Vernacular English (AAVE) did develop, in part, from the pidgin languages that were spoken in the American South. The slaves, their captors and new owners all spoke different languages and developed a pidgin language so that they could all communicate. AAVE has many grammatical rules in common with the languages of West Africa. For instance, "He go to the store" is grammatically correct. The past, present and future tenses are all communicated by stressing certain parts of the sentence. Also, expressions of plurality, such as "there is three book" can also be traced back to the same West African languages.

There are two opposing views on the origins of AAVE. The dialectologist view believes that it is the leftover product of the archaic english of the early settlers. The creolist view believes that it can be traced back to West Africa.

Wish me luck on my midterm!
somadude | 03.15.05 - 9:14 am | #

Karl had a very good idea long ago here. If you can find a standard deed/mortgage/lease (whatever this is) from the period you will probably find that the exact phrasing is the same and then you can start filling in the rest of the words.
I know in Germany there are lots of source books for minor, boring documents where the Latin is printed alongside a modern translation.

http://www.english.cam.ac.uk/ceres/ehoc/
Mark | 03.15.05 - 9:19 am | #

And I'm sorry if I pulled a "Sean Penn" on the person who made the ebonics joke.
somadude | 03.15.05 - 9:39 am | #

If you think you know what the script is, email one of us!

Check a link I posted above, where I suggested that it seemed to be a script based on a late medieval chancery hand. Now, it's probably, as most of the people who know anything agree (for the rest of you, thanks for your enthusiasm, but could you read through the thread before posting? You're wasting our time and making yourself look foolish, otherwise: it's not Middle English), it's late 17th century, probably, although the date on the back and the material on the front need not have anything to do with each other (especially since, well, it's not the same ink, script, or language).

It's not really a historical linguistics thing either. It's a law history and paleography thing. A linguist won't be able to help you out on this at all. Legal historians, yes, if they work in primary documents.

Cnyc seems to be providing very helpful information. "Egidius [i.e., Giles] Leno" huh? I noticed that, too, on the left side, near the bottom. I wasn't sure about the surname, though: part of the bear of this script is that the "L" that begins the surname, if that's what it is, isn't the same.

Now that I check again, though, that first Egidius you checked isn't "Egidius": it's "Egidii," which -- and my Latin's pretty iffy, I have to admit -- makes more sense grammatically (some kind of genitive) -- while the second one's Egidius, definitely in the nominative. If that information's useful to anyone, have at it.
Karl | 03.15.05 - 10:06 am | #

It's a form of Elvish....I can't read it...
Jill | Homepage | 03.15.05 - 10:08 am | #

I showed this to my colleague, a medieval historian, and his guess is that it's latin with a lot of abbreviations (the little marks that look like flourishes are indications that a word has been abbreviated, eg., what looks like Witto in the fourth line is a standard abbreviation he's seen for Willelmus), maybe mixed with another language.
Will | 03.15.05 - 10:25 am | #

"as most people who know anything agree..."

"you're wasting our time and making yourselves look foolish..."

Yo, Karl, having read "through the entire thread", it seems to me that just as many people are having a little fun with this as are taking it seriously.

Lighten up dude. Thanks for trying to keep this thread "on task", but sheesh, can you be more condescending? I think treating the others who have posted in the thread this way might make YOU look a little foolish.
somadude | 03.15.05 - 10:37 am | #

John,

Keep us up to date on this, let us know when you find out what it is.
Michele | 03.15.05 - 11:04 am | #

I will, a few different folks have various experts looking into this, and I've emailed a few folks as well. Promise to get back to everyone.
John Aravosis | 03.15.05 - 11:23 am | #

I just posted this query to a linguaphiles forum on Live Journal - hopefully they'll be able to enlighten us.
John Aravosis | 03.15.05 - 11:44 am | #

Ah! The lost deed to the land the White House sits on.
thomas | 03.15.05 - 12:08 pm | #

Thanks somadude for your comment to Karl. We live in a day when there is a constant battle for our freedom of speech granted to us under the First Amendment. And since this site represents those willing to take a stand against the current regime it seems "foolish" that one would attempt to curb those rights merely because one's thoughts are not the same as another.
Gyweith Awel | 03.15.05 - 12:17 pm | #

Anyone think it may be some sort of marriage agreement?
Gary | 03.15.05 - 12:23 pm | #

Send it to the freepers, I believe there was a hanging "TH" in there somewhere - quite obiviously a fake.
alex | 03.15.05 - 12:50 pm | #

I just go the following email from someone:

"Your document is a land deed dated 8 April 1690 regarding the described property of one Thomas Percivall, recorded on velum by the Secretary (Egidius [Giles in English] Leno) of the Village of Kings Cliffe in what is now the county of Northhamptomshire in central England. The language is early modern English with a liberal smattering of Latin and probably some Germanic terms as well. Very often US antique dealers that obtain their wares at market in England will pick these items up as well as part of a consignment of goods. A scholar of such documents could most likely fully translate it for you."
John Aravosis | 03.15.05 - 1:06 pm | #

Thanks gitte - "to work and in practice"
sparkwidget | 03.15.05 - 1:46 pm | #

John!!!

If you get this thing translated, get a transcription of the original text as well, so we can see where we were right and wrong in our own efforts to translate it.

Thanks!
sparkwidget | 03.15.05 - 1:49 pm | #

I see no Germanic terms there other than English. Older English legal terms having to do with feudal land tenure, like "feoffment" or "seisin," can look alien. The rest is clearly Latin but full of abbreviations and in a hard-to-read script.

It's dated April 8, 1690 on both the front and the back. On the front, the date appears in the second and third lines, though I can't quite make out all of it: "octavo die Aprilis anno regni .... Willi & Mariae Dei gratia Ang[liae] & Scot[iae][?] ... Regis et Regin[ae] fidei defensor[um?] ... secundo Anno ... 1690", which means "on the eighth day of April in the year of the reign ... of William and Mary by the grace of God King and Queen of England and Scotland ... defenders of the faith ... the second year ... 1690."

Unless I'm misreading part of it, it looks as if Leno was the grantee, not the recorder.
cnyc | 03.15.05 - 1:55 pm | #

Sparkwidget, "ad opus et usum" usually translates in this context as "for the use and benefit"; if you Google the phrase, you'll sometimes see it translated as "for the use and behoof".

In older English legal usage, "for the use of" means "for the benefit of". It's not equivalent to the usual modern English sense of the word "use".
cnyc | 03.15.05 - 2:17 pm | #

Seems to be old English -- remember that a script "f" is actually "s" to us, and you can read several words, including "assign" -- have you tried comparing it to old writings of Thomas Jefferson or thereabouts? I used to have a tourist copy of a document from Jamestown, with the "translation" into modern English -- you could use something like that to help you decipher it. It does seem to be a land conveyance...
drunken hausfrau | 03.15.05 - 2:24 pm | #

Okay, I believe the store you bought this in is owned by a James Lamantia. He sells antique maps. I do not however know the name of his store. Gallery 606? perhaps? or something like that. Anyway, there were alot of German settlers upriver from New Orleans aqbout 45 minutes in an area called Lac Des Allemands. As many of these settlers were from the Franco-Prussian border which moved back and forth with the Napoleonic wars, the languages mixed. There are some mighty strange names from that period, with spellings that reflect the mix. I would have to guess it's a property deed, perhaps from that area from before the Spanish-American War, afterwards, Americans started buying land to make the big plantations from the first settlers, which would explain the switch to English on the rear of the document.
Lewis | 03.15.05 - 2:44 pm | #

http://www.oundleonline.co.uk/pp...tail.asp? id=495

King's Cliffe

The village stands to the north of Willow Brook in pleasant, undulating countryside. It is about midway between Corby and Peterborough.

In Saxon times King's Cliffe was a royal manor and the centre of a royal estate which later formed the basis of Cliffe Bailiwick in Rockingham Forest. A 'swanimote' or forest court with legal and administrative functions was held here until about 1690. Charters for a market and fair were granted in 1249. In 1462 a fire damaged a hundred houses.
drfranklives | Homepage | 03.15.05 - 3:12 pm | #

I have no doubt that the front side is in German and the back side is in English.
A Fan | Homepage | 03.15.05 - 3:42 pm | #

Looks like Latin to me.

--Wolfgang
Doc | 03.15.05 - 3:47 pm | #

John,

That is REALLY OLD!!!

1690?! Wow!
blogger | 03.15.05 - 4:00 pm | #

now go to Antiques Roadshow to get an appraisal and price quote!!
blogger | 03.15.05 - 4:01 pm | #

"...of William and Mary by the grace of God King and Queen of England and Scotland ... defenders of the faith ... the second year ... 1690"

As William and Mary ascended the British throne in 1689, the last bit could very well be part of the phrase "the second year of their reign, 1690".
Tall Betty | 03.15.05 - 4:12 pm | #

The bold text in the lower right of side one looks to me like Greek script - transcribed Edorue, Ethorue, something like that. No clue what it could mean, however.
emfzurich | 03.15.05 - 4:31 pm | #

Can someone please point out a single word here that is French, Dutch, or German?

Of the words I can make out (on the front), every one is Latin, with the exception of English place names (King's Cliffe) and given names (William Whitwell, John Newton, Arthur (?) Sharpe, Thomas Percival, William Christopher, etc, and most of these are Latinized (Willus Chrystopherdus). There are many abbreviations and shortenings, but it is written entirely in Latin.
dpl | 03.15.05 - 4:32 pm | #

I believe it is a draft of the first elf/human same-sex civil union in Middle Earth.
Jimbo | Homepage | 03.15.05 - 5:36 pm | #

http://medievalwriting.50megs.co...ts/ scrindex.htm
luigi | 03.15.05 - 6:20 pm | #

John, take it to the library. Most libraries will do some research work for you. Seems you've got access to some good libraries in your neck of the world.
Revhatfield | 03.15.05 - 7:55 pm | #

The ancient document in question reads as follows:

"All work and no play makes John a dull boy. All work and no play makes John a dull boy. All work and no play makes John a dull boy. All work and no play makes John a dull boy. All work and no play makes John a dull boy. All work and no play makes John a dull boy. All work and no play makes John a dull boy. All work and no play makes John a dull boy.

So there,

Jack Torrance
Overlook Hotel
Halloween Ball 1929"
DB | 03.15.05 - 8:49 pm | #

I think that these are two wholly separate documents. When I looked closely they don't seem to be the same material. Side one looks to me like someone practicing their penmanship in differing languages. If I am not mistaken tous is Fr. pr. for "you". And there is another phrase that seems like it is in parentheses. But, it's not. Anyway, it reads, "plus sine minimo (a?)" Which roughly translates "from the smallest, the most" The comma is inferred, I think. Don't know if that helps...
journeyman | Homepage | 03.15.05 - 9:50 pm | #

My vote is definitely Latin. There are lots of "et"s in the script. Plus it looked like a word at the top was "regis". I also see the word "servir". Just a guess. Took five years of Latin, but lord knows I can't be sure.
Britton | 03.15.05 - 11:36 pm | #

Regarding the previous two posts:

plus sive minus = more or less
regis = of the king
reddit et servit = gives and serves

"Tous" would mean "everyone" in French, but I think the word that looks like "tous" is really something like "cons", with a flourish on the "s", which I gather means that it's an abbreviation.
cnyc | 03.16.05 - 1:03 am | #

Having read all the comments ;) and looked at the pics, I will admit my first thought was Tolkinian Elvish and then looked harder. I then realized that it is none of the IIRC 4 scripts/variants of elvish or any of the dwarven. Nor black speech. "Font" appears to be that lovely 'make it fancy' scrolling and doodads of the period(1690) on a decidedly gemanic base. I could only identify names and other words which appeared probably Latin to me- I had HS Spanish and read lots, so no expert here.

I'll cast my vote with the land transfer/written in bad legal latin contingent on the mystery first page.

While a 1690 document is cool, I do almost wish it was Rove's SS agenda transcribed in Sindarian Elvish, just because that would be fun :)
Wild Clover | Homepage | 03.16.05 - 1:58 am | #

The more you look, the more you see.

Beginning of the third to last line, it looks like a mixture of English and Latin -- "Sou/thn p/ concessit" -- "leaves off the Southern part"?

End of the third to the last line to the end, this is what I can read:

Egidio hered[ibus] & assign[atis] suis imp/pm[?] scdnd[?] cons/[?] W[il]he[l]mii[?] p//[?] & reddit et servit inde prius debit et de jure consuet[us?] et dat Qui[bu]s de fine [illegible] in margino Et admissus est inde tenens et fec[it] fidel[itatem].

That starts with "to Giles, his heirs and assignees...." I can't figure out the next part. The last part looks like legal boilerplate language, meaning something like "...gives to him who [signed??] in the margin and was thereupon admitted as a tenant and gave loyalty".
cnyc | 03.16.05 - 2:11 am | #

Google before you leap. I just found similar boilerplate here: http://www.ksenior.dircon.co.uk/ ...script1731.html

That helps a lot with the abbreviations and the translation:

Egidio hered[ibus] & asign[atis] suis in p[er]p[etua]m[?] s[e]c[un]d[um][?] cons[uetudinem] Manerii per [illegible] reddit[i] et servit[i] inde prius debit[a] et de jure consuet[a] dat[a] D[om]ino[?] de fine [illegible] in margino Et admissus est inde Tenens et fec[it] fidel[itatem].

"To Giles and his heirs and assignees in perpetuity [?] according to the custom of the manor by the rents and services thereupon before due and lawfully accustomed to the lord by fine [illegible] in the margin. And he was admitted thereupon as tenant and made his fealty."

Also, I found that Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England talk about a form of land transfer called "surrender" -- a word that appears on the back of the document -- and describes the customary process in terms that sound very much like what the front of the document is describing. You can read it at http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalo...one/ bk2ch22.htm but unfortunately the people who scanned it transcribed the long "s" as "f".
cnyc | 03.16.05 - 2:54 am | #

Sorry: "servic[ia]" not "servit[i]".
cnyc | 03.16.05 - 3:01 am | #

Also: "reddit[us]" not "reddit[i]".
cnyc | 03.16.05 - 3:16 am | #

The front is definitely German.
doh! I can not determine.

The back:
NOTES:
It was written quickly ... some word ends flow into the next word.
Appears to be an 'informal' document between neighbors or acquaintances.

Letter 'e' is written like a small 'o' with a loop within the top of the 'o'.

Letter 'h' is written wide. The closing half-loop is separated from the ascent.

Letter 'c' is written almost as a vertical line, with no curve.

TOP:
8 April 1690
(can not determine, but?:)
I 8 a : of Land :
... order

MIDDLE:
8 acres of land and 7 dollars
1 meadow in the west meadow and
acres being a yard of meadow

LAST LINE:
"found Richardson a stable meadow"

A horse stable, I suppose .. ?

Chuck
ChuckMaureen | 03.16.05 - 5:29 am | #

It clearly states that in the 21st century A.D. a chimpanzee-like creature will lead the world to total destruction. Reverse evolution brings on The Rapture?
Jack R | 03.16.05 - 9:18 am | #

Transcripts from the first Swedish Chef episode on The Muppet Show.
Jimbo | Homepage | 03.16.05 - 10:27 am | #

"Bush lied, soldiers died. The heart of America broke inside." ...The hell?
Tukla in Iowa | 03.16.05 - 6:15 pm | #

As others have pointed out, the front of this document is certainly written in Law Latin/French, and it does appear to be a deed or some other similar document conveying an interest in land.

Does it look to anyone else as if there are two hands writing the front of the document? I'm thinking that this might have been a "form" document written in the lighter, smaller script that was then filled in with some of the relevant details later in the darker, larger script.

Is the text at the bottom right corner the signatures? The top "signature" appears to be the same "name" as the text immediately preceding "ad opus et usum."
Kenneth Fair | 03.16.05 - 7:08 pm | #

Kenneth, I too thought it looked like two hands wrote the front of the document. The top and bottom slant one way, the middle slants the other.
John Aravosis | 03.16.05 - 8:40 pm | #

Dear Sir, I'm pasting an email I received from Dr. Fred Porcheddu, Dept. of English, Denison University, Granville, OH:

"Okay! Here's the cursory skinny, so far as I can tell.

Both sides of the document are on the same subject: the short side (in English) is a summary of the contents of the long side (mostly Latin, but also several words in English and French). When I first looked at the long side I immediately thought "Dutch!" because of "pleg," but that doesn't hold up. I still can't figure out where that word comes from. Maybe it's a Latin legal idiom, something like "Let it be freely known"? Anyway--short side is English, long side is mostly Latin.

This is a document of land ownership. It seems to me to be a foreclosure or a seizure, but that could be a false impression--lots of it is in abbreviated Latin legalese, and I haven't tried to decode the whole thing. Anyway, it concerns 8 acres of land near King's Cliffe (in Northamptonshire, about 20 km west of Peterborough)--see line 10 of the document. It's dated April 8, 1690, indicated both by the actual date and through reference to the first regnal year of William and Mary (see lines 2-3). The date is, of course, repeated much more clearly at the top of the short side.

The land itself is summarized on the short side as being "8 Acres of land and 7 Dales of Meadow in the west Meadow and alders being a yard of meadow," bringing in rents of 5.6-, with a fine of 2.1-. This latter is what makes me think there's default going on. The same rent and fine info is on the long side in the left-hand margin, using Roman numerals etc. (Shillings and pence, BTW.)

The proper names we see are those of John Newton (short side line 3; long side line 6), Thomas Perziveill or Perciveill (long side lines 5 and 11) and Willus Chrystopher (line 5). There's another name that seems like "Everett" on line 11, too.

If the owner wants more info, he should seek out a medieval historian with experience in deeds, wills, etc. There are abbreviations here one just doesn't run into in literary studies!

Fred Porcheddu"
Erin K Donovan | 03.17.05 - 7:15 pm | #