AMERICAblog.com

Hey, first!
Emily | 01.27.07 - 12:22 pm | #

John,

Have fun at the rally and BE SAFE. Wish I could be there...
Emily | 01.27.07 - 12:22 pm | #

yeah, its on c-span, im watching right now. :)

good luck down there guys.
Chris from Maine | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 12:23 pm | #

Wrong. It's THE topic. Jimmy Carter is right. End Israeli Apartheid.
jeff | 01.27.07 - 12:23 pm | #

tell people about the glenn beck boycott while you are down there. ;)
Chris from Maine | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 12:23 pm | #

Good points. As a drag queen, I always wonder how I should join rallies...if I go in drag, do I attract much-needed attention to a cause...or do I alienate people who hate drag queens? If I don't go in drag, am I sanitizing the culture or looking like I'm ashamed of something?

And yes, there always seems to be some clueless person who rattles on about a pet topic that may be important...but isn't topical.

NOTE FROM JOHN: Actually, I'm not sure if you're being serious or not, but I think you are, and you raise a good topic, drag queens. You/we don't want to tell a legitimate part of our community to stuff it because some people find them embarrassing, but at the same time, every one of us needs to think about what we're trying to achieve with the rallies (boobs are probably not appropriate). I happen to find drag queens a riot, so I don't like it when people say they generically find drag queens offensive, or whatever. And at the same time, I don't want to find myself hiding who we really are just to appease the public - I mean, it's hard to deny that drag queens WERE Stonewall, we owe everything to them. But at the same time, will the public understand why drag queens are so important to the culture, both politically and simply because they're a hoot? No. But does that mean we "ban" them? It's actually a great metaphor for trying to work this out.

Edited By Siteowner
Muffy St. Bernard | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 12:25 pm | #

It's not the fact that certain people say and do things at rallies that anger other people; it's that certain people say and do things at rallies that are irrelevant to the cause at hand. I thought this was a rally to end the war in Iraq.
Ed Sikov | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 12:25 pm | #

Muffy,

How about bringing your drag clothes with you and changing in the middle of the rally? (Well, not IN public, but in a public restroom.) That way you have both your bases covered.
Emily | 01.27.07 - 12:26 pm | #

I've been watching/listening for the past 20 minutes. They have been focused on Iraq, but there was some very bad singing.
erin | 01.27.07 - 12:26 pm | #

John,

I love your blog, but in this case I think the Israel issue is very important to the big middle-East issue. Huge problem with our foreign policy and yes our tax dollars are being used for corrupt means there.
gaystereotype | 01.27.07 - 12:26 pm | #

Ever read Norman Mailer's Armies of the Night? Its a nonfiction novel (sort of like Hunter S. Thompson w/out the drugs, or Truman Capote's In Cold Blood) that's really well written, and a great story about the 1968 "March on the Pentagon".

Check it out if you want to see how hard it is to control speakers at rallies :D.
Zoner | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 12:27 pm | #

Way to go there comparing Mideast dynamics to gay parades. Hmmm, lets see, believe President Jimmy Carter? Or perhaps the gay obsessed blogger trying to sell advertising...
jeff | 01.27.07 - 12:28 pm | #

If you don't like the diversity of this one, organize your own rally next time.
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 12:29 pm | #

the road for ME peace runs through Jerusalem.

Almost all neo-cons are Pro-Israel stalwarts who believe in destroying any nations that are the enemies of Israel. eg: Iraq, Syria and Iran.
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 12:30 pm | #

John was not comparing "Mideast dynamics" to "gay parades." He was comparing today's rally to gay civil rights marches.
Ed Sikov | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 12:30 pm | #

I don't know how I feel about Jimmy Carter. I'm 22 and so I've never heard much criticism above "He's a Georgia peanut farmer who never grew a peanut in his life."

In the race for the right answer on the Israel question, I normally lean towards Israel, but I know they can be just as untrustworthy as their enemies, and almost as untrustworthy as Bush.
Zoner | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 12:31 pm | #

whatever...
jeff | 01.27.07 - 12:31 pm | #

Gotta agree. I just cringed when I saw they were letting Fonda come... sigh.
donna | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 12:32 pm | #

I have to agree with John, and bring up a related point. I am a democrat, and a veteran. Nothing angers me more than those who (publically, on the blogs, etc...) call all military members killers. It angers me and many others of like mind and turns a lot of people off the democrats. It also feeds fuel to the fire and is one reason the military tends to vote so overwhelmingly republican. Today, as a vet, were I in D.C., I would have nothing to do with this peace rally, not because I don't want peace, but because I would have to restrain myself every moment from choking "Hanoi Jane". She is responsible for the deaths of many American soldiers, but no one calls her a killer.
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 12:32 pm | #

"way to alienate most Jews in America"

Most Jews in America agree that the occupation must end.

NOTE FROM JOHN: I didn't hear a lot of love for Jews in her rant. I'm not even Jewish, and these kind of rants give me the willies.

Edited By Siteowner
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 12:33 pm | #

Gonna be a lot of picture taking there. Take pictures of the picture takers, too. Many probably working for W.
Bit NOLA | 01.27.07 - 12:34 pm | #

John, you're right....it's aobut Iraq. Wrong topic. And the thing about drag queens, what?
Ben | 01.27.07 - 12:34 pm | #

Jimmy Carter was right about dependence on foreign oil would be the end of America. He is a devoted Christian who bathed in the waters of Jesus baptism in his search for solutions to Mideast peace.
jeff | 01.27.07 - 12:34 pm | #

A lot of people think (mistakenly) that if THEY have an issue, the whole group should shoulder the burden as well. Just because a gay person has an issue, does NOT make it a "gay issue". Just because a person who's a Dem has an issue, it does NOT make it a "Dem issue". I've always had this same problem with the political clubs I used to belong to here in San Francisco.

Joshua Norton | 01.27.07 - 12:34 pm | #

You must unerstand that the Israeli occupation of Palestine is fueling most of the discontent in the Middle East. Talk about denial...
robtheheartthrob | 01.27.07 - 12:35 pm | #

OT I like the new refresh feature.

Mideast peace is as much about Israel as the Iraq war is about Iran.
jeff | 01.27.07 - 12:37 pm | #

"NOTE FROM JOHN: I didn't hear a lot of love for Jews in her rant. I'm not even Jewish, and these kind of rants give me the willies."

Point taken, John. I didn't hear her, and I should have clarified that in my comment.
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 12:37 pm | #

I saw the exact woman on CSpan. I thought she was a horrid representative for the protest. Folks who don't keep their "eye on the prize" make the Iraq anti-occupation movement look silly and unfocused. Bad move.
knoxy | 01.27.07 - 12:38 pm | #

I agree about muddled messages at these events, but I also believe everything we do in Middle East foreign policy is driven by the overwhelming influence and money of the Israeli lobby. Just look at Hillary.
Jersey Jay | 01.27.07 - 12:39 pm | #

When I was in college, there was a protest against a conservative editor of the student paper. While the guy deserved to be protested, the speakers were all over the place. It was like they're were blaming all the worlds problems on this editor. (Never mind that his term was over in a couple weeks.) That rally lost its focus.

It sounds like this rally is suffering from the same lack of focus.
Wiliam Brinkman | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 12:39 pm | #

And let me say, she wasn't attacking Jews. I just got a bad feeling from the speech. It didn't strike me as a rational argument about how the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian issue clearly influenced our decision to go into Iraq, and how, if that issue were solved, we might not have gone in. That I agree with.
John Aravosis | 01.27.07 - 12:40 pm | #

Many Jews feel Israeli Aprtheid will eventually destroy Judaism.
jeff | 01.27.07 - 12:40 pm | #

So let's take an issue that most Americans agree with - the war in Iraq must end - and splinter it all up so that we end up fighting with each other while the war continues and more people die.

Way to go, lefties. Way to go!
Ed Sikov | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 12:41 pm | #

silly and unfocused.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I've used these exact words. I used to be a voice in the wilderness at SF Pride meetings, bucking the "just give the mike to anyone who wants to talk" mind set they used to have.

Joshua Norton | 01.27.07 - 12:41 pm | #

Ed, maybe you can organize a bettr rally next time.
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 12:42 pm | #

I've never made any claims to be a rally organizer. I don't get along with people.
Ed Sikov | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 12:43 pm | #

Bettr?

Sorry about that.
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 12:43 pm | #

Good one, Ed!
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 12:44 pm | #

In "Armies of the Night" Mailer was supposed to be the keynote speaker the evening before the rally/March on the Pentagon. Showed up an hour late, drunk, pissed on the floor of an abandoned balcony men's room, makes it up to the stage with his whiskey in a coffee mug and starts slurring out a totally wild speech.

Things could be worse.
Zoner | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 12:46 pm | #

Maybe if the Jews in America spoke out about the occupation in Israel, then perhaps peace, not apartheid, will take hold there. And just maybe, just maybe, speaking to the coming war with Iran more loss of life can be avoided. But no, we need them for allies. et real.
gg | 01.27.07 - 12:47 pm | #

Totally agree with you about rallies, John. I always attended the gay parade in San Diego (a couple of times I marched in it with local gay groups), and 95% of the participants looked just like you and me. but there were always the wierdos that had to do their thing and of course the media usually (not always) zeroed in on them, certain to turn off Middle America. The local paper gave us pretty good and unsensational coverage but the tv media didn't. So it's time for some gays to pull their heads out of the rear ends and realize the damage that their selfish egos cause our community! I am FED UP with them!
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 12:26 pm | #

Why blame the gay folks having fun when it is the media that is misrepresenting us? I go to a the gay pride events to many reasons - but none of them includes to make the folks in Omaha feel good about me. And just why would I believe that truly homophobic people would change because of an event?

I remember seeing some gay event on C-Span years ago. Some old biddy called in and said something like how could C-Span allow the misrepresentation of queers by showing them wearing business suits (meaning that her impression, probably shaped by the media, was that they should hav been in dresses or leather chaps).

Drag queens and gays of color were Stonewall. The 'normal' looking white gays could have never participated for fear of being 'exposed.'

It is the same fear that I see repeated here.

Get the fuck over it. If the media focuses in on one person's outrageous behavior out of 100,000 people participating in an event, it is the media that needs to be attacked.

It was the drag queens that started the modern gay rights movement. You are standing on their shoulders and at the same time they embarrass you.
Gary SF | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 12:47 pm | #

These rallies are wonderful because of the message they are giving. The message is END THE WAR. Mix up that message and you confuse your target audience.

Marketing 101. :)

I remember going to a protest the night that the Gulf War happened in 1991. There was some bozo with a Bullhorn screaming "Burn down the White House! Break the bitch's other leg!" (Barbara Bush's leg was broken at the time).

Hardly an appropriate message at a peace rally.

It takes all kinds, I guess.

:)
knoxy | 01.27.07 - 12:49 pm | #

Another rant: I agree with John that much of the speech against Israel is so racist that I cannot bear it. It is one thing to rightfully attack the policies and actions of this country. It is quite another to attack Jews, which is frequently done in this blog by some regular posters. And no, I am not Jewish.
Gary SF | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 12:50 pm | #

gg, of course you're aware that there are many Jewish organizations that stand against the occupation.
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 12:51 pm | #

knoxy said:

"Burn down the White House! Break the bitch's other leg!" (Barbara Bush's leg was broken at the time)."

Hahaha, I guess somebody missed the Peace 101 lecture on non-violent resistance as well.
Zoner | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 12:51 pm | #

It's a matter of discretion - many hetero crossdressers who lobby for transgender civil rights do those visits in their male attire. Transitioned people of course dress in appropriate business attire for their transitioned sex.

The real issue I see is the medias choice to focus on one form of gay/trans expression - say drag queens - in forums where it's not the focus of the event.

It's as if they were to use only pictures of straight people in costume at Mardi Gras for every story on straight people.
Brilett | 01.27.07 - 12:51 pm | #

Oh - and by the way Sylvia Rivera identified as transgender.
Brilett | 01.27.07 - 12:52 pm | #

"Hahaha, I guess somebody missed the Peace 101 lecture on non-violent resistance as well."

Yes, but clearly hit the Marketing 101 lecture because his message was clear and focused.

:) ha ha ha
knoxy | 01.27.07 - 12:53 pm | #

Gotta agree about Fonda. Bad move to let her speak. If she wants to show up, fine, but don't give her a microphone.
tireiron chef | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 12:55 pm | #

I'm not "watching some idiot on C-Span", cuz I refuse to watch tv.

But I will say that the point of Israeli occupation is a good one and apropo to the topic of middle east peace. It is not the "jews" that it is aimed at but the administration that governs Israel. It's the GOVERNMENT, not the people. Are YOU offended when aomeone criticizes the US government?

Just as the president of Iran stated - The "ADMINISTRATION" that governs Israel today should disappear from the PAGE OF TIME is in no way directed at the "jews", so too, saying that the ADMINISTRATION that governs the US today should disappear from the page of history is not DIRECTED AT AMERICANS.

Israel is an occupying government. The US is an occupying government.
The CITIZENS of either country are not the guilty parties, but their GOVERNMENTS.

The "war" in Iraq is an OCCUPATION.
The "war" in Afghan is an OCCUPATION.
The struggle in Gaza is an OCCUPATION.

I believe the speaker was equating all occupations, not belittleing the citizens of the occupiers.

JMO
Amerikagulag | 01.27.07 - 12:56 pm | #

The invasion of Iraq was a War of Aggression.
Dave of the Jungle | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:00 pm | #

Well, JMO/Amerikagulag, those the kind of things that one needs to make incredibly, blatantly clear if you're going near that topic. Just a disclaimer at the beginning or something...
Zoner | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:00 pm | #

Amerikagulag - I agree - it's all wrong. But this being an Iraq war rally with national coverage - frankly, I think that putting blanket statements out like that just don't work.

If popular opinion and rallies can effect the decision to stay in Iraq - it can effect all SORTS of things (which is my core belief). But this isn't a "U.S. is responsible for global occupation" rally. It's an anti-Iraq war rally. That's the purpose, first and foremost - to get the troops OUT of Iraq and end the Iraqi occupation.

I saw the coverage. IMHO, the gal was ineffective.
knoxy | 01.27.07 - 1:03 pm | #

I believe the speaker was equating all occupations, not belittleing the citizens of the occupiers.

JMO
Amerikagulag | 01.27.07 - 12:56 pm | #

Defending a speaker that you have not seen, without knowing what they have said is a pretty stupid thing to do.

Just as there are many racists within the anti-immigration movement, there are many anti-Semites within the anti-Israel movement.

It is a travesty that neither of these groups will disavow the haters within, as there are very legitimate immigration concerns and of course, there should be a Palestinian state, next to Israel.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 1:03 pm | #

(sorry, I can't edit the fact that I said "end the Iraqi Occupation" whereas I should have send "End the U.S. occupation of Iraq." Duh.
knoxy | 01.27.07 - 1:04 pm | #

right Dave, "The invasion of Iraq was a War of Aggression" - key word WAS. The current situation in Iraq is an OCCUPATION.
The invasion of Afghanistan was a War of Aggression. Key word - WAS
The current situation is an OCCUPATION.

Our military are there uninvited and generally opposed. We are occupiers.
Amerikagulag | 01.27.07 - 1:05 pm | #

I have to agree with Amerikagulag on this topic.

Why is it okay to criticize the American government, but not the Israeli government. When I criticize Bush am I anti-Christian, or is it that the anti-Semite accusation most times is just a red herring so that there is really never any real discussion on the policies of Israel and their occupation of Gaza and the West Bank.

And John if there were a special rally just about ending the Israeli occupation would you attend or even cover it?
Coming Undone | 01.27.07 - 1:06 pm | #

We arn't beholden to drag queens! Hell I was out before 1969 and people were comming out for years before - hell there was a protest in front of the white house in the early 60's. The 60's was time of "free love" - if anything we can thank the soldiers of wwII who found each other in the army etc. and when the war was over moved in with each other. It was a gradual opening up, hapening for decades. the stonewall riot was just a milestone ot the way - drag queens are given far too much credit.
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 1:07 pm | #

drag queens are given far too much credit.
====

Um - the Comptons cafeteria riot preceeded Stonewall (again those pesky trannys) as did an action at a local dinner in Philly.

The One Center in LA - in the 50's - was funded to the tune of several million and was housed in a building owned by transsexual pioneer (female to male) Reed Erikson.

There's more - but people keep covering it up.
Brilett | 01.27.07 - 1:11 pm | #

John, you really need to read up on Stonewall. There was a recent book that came out that cast doubt to the "we owe it all to drag queens."
chris | 01.27.07 - 1:11 pm | #

Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 1:07 pm | #

Happy to hear that you were out before Stonewall. But if you study gay and lesbian history you will see the importance of Stonewall.

So your 'outness' is not due to Stonewall. But for most of us, the actions of those brave drag queens made it much easier for us to come out.

And my point is that we not be embarrassed by them when they show up at a gay event.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 1:12 pm | #

If you had a choice of addressing one problem right now -- Iraq or Israel -- which would it be? Of course the Israel/Palestine turmoil foments unrest in the entire Middle East, but do you really think that even if there was a solution in Israel today that the civil war in Iraq would be at all diminished?
Mitchell Rose | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:13 pm | #

the Comptons cafeteria riot preceeded Stonewall

True. That's the incident that prompted the San Francisco Police Dept. to form a Gay outreach program.

Joshua Norton | 01.27.07 - 1:15 pm | #

A bit6 on the3 drag queen thing. Most of the public doesn't know the difference between a transvestite, a transexual or a gay man. That being said, I remember when the main stream gay groups were trying everything they could to exclude Transgendered people from the ENDA bill. I also remember having a falling out with Aravosis over it shortly after I was fired from Coastal Transport for being transsexual. The same goes for the Log Cabin idiots, (this was 1999 or 2000, before the chimpistration. To the best of my knowlege, the log cabin idiots are still just that and while I won't go into my argument with John, we both made some very valid points and at least didn't go away hating one another, (like I hate the lopg cabin assclowns).

Too many of us spend far too much time trying to present a mask to the world and I think that's unhealthy. Though transsexuals have long suffered from the public opinion of drag queens and the camp that usually accompanies them, I say "be yourself" because if you aren't true to who and what you are, nobody else is going to look out for your truth.
MargaretPOA | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:15 pm | #

I hear similar sentiment from friends in San Francisco about ant-war demonstrations and it drives me crazy.

Why cant we all agree on one theme and say only one chant and work against one foe??

That is insane. That is what the ridiculous political parties do. Let them be monolithic compromised organizations of control and censorship.

A rally should be a loosly organized collection of people from all walks of life unted against an enemy - to educate and inspire - each other as well as all observers. It might be the only real exposure some idiot str8 people get to LGBTs when LGBT people show up at a rally opposed to war AND to promote thier own beef against this government.

Control freaks are also welcome to join in. IF you don't like what you hear at some of the speeches ignore them and focus on what you DO like. Bring a sign that says - I love Jews and I hate some of the things Israel does.

The only thing worse than the possibility of guilt by association by attending a diverse demonstration is the potential for the appearance of disintrist or implied support by staying home.

Do your civic duty and demonstrate against the war. Take what you like and leave the rest.
patrick | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:15 pm | #

John,
The simple way to work it out is to organize your own peace rallies instead of complaining about ANSWER and the rest. The peace marches we had in our town generally coincided with those of ANSWER, even though very few marchers even knew who ANSWER was. The problem was that no one else was organizing a large scale march.
steve ex-expat | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:16 pm | #

The media always seeks out the more outrageous folks at a rally...UNLESS it's a rally of conservatives.

I've been to many gay pride parades and festivals where I didn't see one single person all day who didn't look like he could have been IN CHURCH. But somehow when I go home and turn on the news, the media coverage of the event ALWAYS manages to find a drag queen to focus on in order to make the home viewers think that the whole event was nothing but drag queens.

Nothing against drag queens, but the media makes it look like 100% of all gay men dress in drag, when honestly I don't know a single gay man who dresses in drag right now. I think the sane straight public is not bothered by seeing drag queens on the news, but we all know that a lot of conservatives see this and instantly regard us all as "freaks."
NiceGuy | 01.27.07 - 1:17 pm | #

Oh...and for all of you people that don't believe that drag queens and transsexuals played a major role in the raising of the entire community, you can either fuck off or read some history and come back when you are less ignorant. It doesn't matter whether Compton or Stonewall or anything else came first. We are all a part of the greater community and the greater movement.
MargaretPOA | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:17 pm | #

John, you really need to read up on Stonewall. There was a recent book that came out that cast doubt to the "we owe it all to drag queens."
chris | 01.27.07 - 1:11 pm | #

What is the title of the book? I just took a class in gay and lesbian history, and drag queens and young gay men of color were given all of of the credit for Stonewall and Stonewall was considered one of a few pivotal events in the struggle for rights for gays and lesbians.

Judy Garland was given a little credit - for dying. The police chose the day of her funeral to mess with the queers at Stonewall. As Judy was a 'gay icon' for many, and emotions were high that day, the response to the harassment was also emotional.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 1:17 pm | #

John,
Interesting way to not address an obliviously huge factor in feuling east west aggressions. Israel must end as it is today. Contrary to popular belief, Israel is not the only ally or stable country in the region. The ways in which Israel justifies its treatment of its Palestenian population reminds me of the old south's claims blacks couldn't tend to themselves and that God favored the more civilized whites. These are lies as fabricated as Bush's WMDs. Why are we not looking more at the Israeli religios freaks. Not only do they hate Palestenians but one group posted flyers recently that threatened to kill gays in the name of God in order to stop a rally. It was very spooky how the gay event was confined to a stadium.
In this terrible time of war and loss of rights coalitions and diverse views are needed. many of us hope to return to a more round table/ coalition building government and break the conservative noose still controlling both parties.
Israel Sucks! | 01.27.07 - 1:17 pm | #

[I love your blog, but in this case I think the Israel issue is very important to the big middle-East issue.]

I agree that it's important to the big Middle East issue, but the rally is about ending the occupation and preventing expansion into Iran. Israeli occupation is relevant to the topic as a whole, but it's not a good issue for this rally.
tireiron chef | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:18 pm | #

Steve the Ex-Pat is right.
Other groups besides ANSWER need to be organizing anti-war marches.

I agree with some things ANSWER says, but some of their ideas are absurd to me. We need an organization that takes on one issue at a time... namely, the Iraq War.
NiceGuy | 01.27.07 - 1:20 pm | #

Israel sucks and what they have done to the Palestinians is reprehensible. That said, I agree with John. This is about Iraq, NOT Israel. You might as well protest police brutality and school cafeteria food at the same rally.
MargaretPOA | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:20 pm | #

Good Morning, Margaret!
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 1:21 pm | #

Bottom line - going back to the presenter that John was speaking about - she made me turn the channel.

Now, I'm a progressive - what would a middle of the road person have done? What would the impression have been?

I'm all for freedom of speech. I'm not a "control freak" (well, not much of one, at least).

I just thought this was an end the war in Iraq protest. When a presenter goes off on some spin for her own cause vs. the point of the rally, it isn't about the point of the rally anymore.

It's been fun - I hope you have a LOVELY day! :)
knoxy | 01.27.07 - 1:22 pm | #

Actually, Israel is the only country in the Middle East where gay people have any rights to speak of. Palestinians have brutally tortured and killed many gays and lesbians. Gay & lesbian Palestinians move to ISRAEL, so that should tell you something.
NotSoFast | 01.27.07 - 1:22 pm | #

The solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is very important to the discussion of Iraq but remarkably simple from the US point of view. Cut off Israel. If anybody else on the planet had treated part of it's population like that, do you think one dime of taxpayer money would be going there?
Dissengage Israel until they can behave and engage Iran and Syria. Not rocket science.
MargaretPOA | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:23 pm | #

'Morning Gary! :)
MargaretPOA | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:24 pm | #

The problem is that it is hard to control a rally. Who is allowed to speak can be controlled, but not who who shows up.

In the early 70's I participated in many anti-nuke rallies. Every single time the Commies (Worker's Party or whatever) would show up with flyers, etc. I hated that, but they were such a small group and there was so much 'greater good' being accomplished that we just ignored them.

We need to keep focused upon the 'greater good' and BUST the media when things are not represented correctly.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 1:24 pm | #

I am reading comments that say the rally is about ending the occupation in Iraq, and that Israel should not be a topic in the rally today. The Zionist neo-cons in Israel and the neo-cons in the US are why we are in Iraq and building up to attack Iran in the very near future.
Coming Undone | 01.27.07 - 1:25 pm | #

Organizing a demonstration where only ONE topic is allowed to be the focus will be about as successful as making this comment section focus on the post without digression.

What you are asking for is strict conformity and it will not ever happen.

I wonder if this was an issue in this coutnry for the past 200 plus years of demonstration? I have a feeling it is not a new development.

Ever tried to heard cats?
patrick | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:25 pm | #

John - I understand your words regarding the conundrum of gays and the inclusion of Drag Queens in our struggle. But I must say this. I am sixty years old. I have lived through the war in Vietnam, and through the years of progress of the gay rights movement, having its birth at the Stonewall riots in NYC. No matter what decade, no matter when a snapshot is taken, no matter whether any gay man is proud, ambivalent or ashamed of Drag Queens, there will always be some who call for patience and caution so that the movement does not offend mainstream America. John, I have seen this throughout my life. Even now I have a friend who thinks we should not push for gay marriage because it offends middle americans who simply do not have that frame of reference. I am a father, and as a single parent I remember taking my son to school and picking him up. Another friend back then told me that I must hide my sexual orientation because "the other children" would be cruel to my beautiful son. These are all excuses and I rejected them always. My son was never harmed by "other children." How long must we accomadate hatred? How long must we accomodate bigotry and societal ignorance and fear?

There is a tradition in the south of flamboyant Drag Shows. When I moved to Tampa int the 1980's, there was a burgeoning gay social life, much of it centered around cabaret shows hosted and perfomed by Drag Queens. Straights, gays and bisexuals all came and the environment for gays and Drag Queens here was joyful, bright and happy. The talent (lip-synching to Donna Summers and old Supremes songs) was outstanding. It is not up to you, John, nor other gay men to decide whether Drag Queens should be included in the fight for our rights, or for the struggle to end the illegal and immoral war in Iraq.

I have noticed some of the same patterns unfolding among younger bright gay activists such as many on this blog. There is a temptation to think that if we just go incrementally and cautiously, eventually our equality will be realized. I lived through years when that was the prevailing conventional wisdom. That does not work. Remember when president Clinton promised to end the ban on gays in the military? The Rebpublicans fought him with all their strength and dirty tricks and fear-mongering. In the end, a compromise was reached. That is the present failed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy.
That was a mistake. President Clinton should have simply issued an executive order to ban discrimination against gays in the military, the same way president Truman ended discrimination against blacks in the US military.

No, John, do not be concerned that Drag Queens stand with us in our fights for equality and peace. There will always be those who hate them. Ther will always be those who think they are counter-productive to the struggle for equality for gays in the US. No, do not be concerned in the least bit. Drag Queens are part of us. They should be honored, not ridiculed. They should be treated with the same dignity we ourselves demand as gays, no matter what bigots think or say or do. If we as gays are defined by anything, it is our courage. Sometimes I hate growing old. Sometimes though, it gives me valuable perspective on issues such as this. I wish I were there with you, John at the Washington Mall. PEACE
thomas | 01.27.07 - 1:26 pm | #

You don't want to hinder diversity yet you also don't want to offend more conservative folk?
You're not a Republican. You can't have it both ways.
Dula | 01.27.07 - 1:26 pm | #

As Barbara Gittings and Frank Kameny will tell you, there was a lot of gay rights activity long before Stonewall. Stonewall just made a splash and got more publicity. But Gittings and Kameny and others put their lives on the line to protest for gay rights years before Stonewall happened. Google Gittings and Kameny and see what you can read on them.
GittingsFan | 01.27.07 - 1:26 pm | #

Thanks patrick and MargaretPOA for a bit of sanity
vv | 01.27.07 - 1:31 pm | #

Amen, brother. I'm getting tired of having an overactive cringe response every time someone from the supposed "left" opens their mouth (including recent Congressional oratories from new Congress people on the floors of the House and Senate--stunningly inappropriate and juvenile). Stick to the topic, speak cogently and with some knowledge of the issues at hand or shut the f**k up! Not only can we (liberals, progressives, dems) do better--we HAVE to do better or we're going to lose our current momentum.
Michele | 01.27.07 - 1:32 pm | #

GittingsFan | 01.27.07 - 1:26 pm | #

Of course there were others before Stonewall. But as you said, Stonewall 'made a splash.' That the others toiled in obscurity is not their fault.

But it is lunacy to underplay the impact of a 'splash.'

I maintain that the work of others was able to surface because of Stonewall.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 1:32 pm | #

if the israel/palestine problem were solved, terrorism would go way down.
Chris from Maine | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:32 pm | #

if the israel/palestine problem were solved, terrorism would go way down.
Chris from Maine | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:32 pm | #

You are joking, right?
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 1:33 pm | #

they should do these rallies when the politicians are there, instead of weekends.
Chris from Maine | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:33 pm | #

John's basic point is that rally organizers need to keep the speakers on-topic if the event is to accomplish anything.

[Some rallies, such as those against globalization, don't even try to accomplish a thing.]

http://www.YellowElephant.org/
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 1:35 pm | #

Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 1:33 pm | #

nope, if israel was forced to give the palestinians back their country, and not to occupy palestine, a lot of the hostility towards us would go down.

especially if we stopped supporting israel as much as we do.
Chris from Maine | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:35 pm | #

free speech means they can carry signs that they want to, get over it
blah | 01.27.07 - 1:35 pm | #

For all of those opposed to the topic of the Israeli occupation being covered today, in what forum would you welcome an open and honest discussion about Israel ?
One of the ingredients in the War in Iraq is Israel.
Coming Undone | 01.27.07 - 1:35 pm | #

btw.. who the hell brought a horn to the anti-warl rally? its friggin annoying. lol
Chris from Maine | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:35 pm | #

http://www.michaelmoore.com/

Great pic on Michael Moore's front page.
Dave of the Jungle | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:36 pm | #

Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 1:32 pm
*********************************************

Some gays just refuse to believe that transgendered people had anything to do with any progress made by the community. They would rather think that progress was made in spite of them rather than with their help.
MargaretPOA | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:36 pm | #

damn Zoner, how dare Mailer show up drunk tsk tsk that bastard you should have just shot him in the head.
blah | 01.27.07 - 1:36 pm | #

Re drag queens and Stonewall:

Even if the historians say that there really weren't many, or any, drag queens at Stonewall, that's not relevant.

According to myth, it was the drag queens and young gays of color who led the riots; people everywhere responded to the myth and it's the myth that jump-started the modern gay rights movement.

In other words, the myth has become fact. That's why every Gay Pride honors drag queens. If they freak you out, that's your problem.

[Note: I'm talking fully clothed drag queens, not Janet Jackson's wardrobe malfunction.]
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 1:38 pm | #

Actually,

Religious leaders from Palestine and Israel are uniting, as we speak, in their eradication of gays from their societies.
NPR did a report on it. Both believe gays will be the end of civilization.
jeff | 01.27.07 - 1:39 pm | #

While the Israel/Palestine issue need to be settled, with the two countries living next to each other in harmony, do you really believe that bin Laden orchestrated the attacks in the US, Spain, England because of Israel? How about the constant stream of explosions in Thailand or Indonesia? Israel to blame for those too?

If were only that simple.

If every Jew were to disappear from the planet, terrorism would continue at its current levels, with the exception of the terror inflicted by Israel upon its neighbors. But its neighbors inflict terror upon others, so don't look for 'peace on earth' under this scenario.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 1:40 pm | #

Don't forget the counter-demonstrators or "war supporters" at the Navy Memorial at 8th and Penn NW.

http://www.BeAManEnlist.us/
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 1:40 pm | #

Exactly Gary. People need to get over the foolish idea that Israelis and Jews are synonamous
MargaretPOA | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:41 pm | #

"For all of those opposed to the topic of the Israeli occupation being covered today, in what forum would you welcome an open and honest discussion about Israel?"

How about a forum on Israel instead of Iraq?

---------------------------------
"damn Zoner, how dare Mailer show up drunk tsk tsk that bastard you should have just shot him in the head."

I would never shoot Norman Mailer in the head. He was a great novelist and person. But when he's supposed to be the emcee at a major event maybe he shouldn't be hammered.
Zoner | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:41 pm | #

Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 1:40 pm | #

the united states support for israel does certainly not help the situation.

my solution is withdrawing all troops from the middle east completely.
Chris from Maine | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:41 pm | #

John raises an excellent point. Diversity is wonderful, but that's no reason a rally can't be 'on message,' instead of a 'catch-all' for every issue out there.
The Latino Immigration Marches last year, gave an excellent example of what a protest COULD be. Millons of people marching peacefully, about a single issue. The Media and the Nation were forced to take notice.
MarcInLosAngeles | 01.27.07 - 1:42 pm | #

I agree with Joe. The problem with liberals and liberal causes is that they all seem to think that if you believe in one liberal cause, say, "Stop the war in Iraq," then you must believe in all liberal causes, say, "Crush the Capitalist Machine."

We liberals need to recognize that personal beliefs are a la carte and stop organizing political rallies that allow speakers to bitch about Mumia or Peltier in the same breath as Iraq. Pick a topic. Stick to it. Otherwise it makes us all seem dimwitted, flighty and a lot crazy.
willie lee | 01.27.07 - 1:42 pm | #

I look at drag queens and really queeny acting gay guys with the same disdain that African-Americans looked at minstrel shows, Step'n Fetchit and Amos and Andy. If gays are truly going to be accepted in American society that has been poisoned by close minded religious bigots than we have to emphasize how much we're like everyone else and not portray ourselves as a bunch of wacked out freaks, which is how most Americans think of drag queens.

Yeah, it would be nice if Americans were willing to tolerate the lot, but change has to happen gradually. And really girly acting guys make most men, even other men who like men as I do, queasy. That's reality. I'm a bottom, but I appear totally masculine. C'mon folks, butch up!
BiGuy | 01.27.07 - 1:43 pm | #

MarcInLosAngeles | 01.27.07 - 1:42 pm | #

Yes, Marc but some of the media focused upon the MEXICAN FLAG and chose to ignore the numbers of people marching.

We need to hold the media accountable.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 1:44 pm | #

free speech means they can carry signs that they want to, get over it

Freedom of Speech doesn't mean freedom of venue, or freedom from its consequences. You really need to get over that one.

Joshua Norton | 01.27.07 - 1:46 pm | #

We need to have a referendum on the Iraq war.

Republicans always say we need to vote on gay marriage. Well how about a vote on this idiotic war??
Referendum | 01.27.07 - 1:46 pm | #

From that counter-protest site:

ttention Real Americans:

Saturday, January 27, 2007

Local authorities in Washington, D.C. have granted a permit for war supporters to counter-protest today at the Navy Memorial, 8th Street and Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., Metro Archives-Navy Memorial on the Green Line.

So, please stop by and urge any under-42 healthy heterosexuals there to Be A Man! Enlist!

----------------------------------

Haha, "under-42 healthy heterosexuals."

That's sick.
Zoner | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:46 pm | #

"Stop the war in Iraq," then you must believe in all liberal causes, say, "Crush the Capitalist Machine."

Hmmmm...maybe the "Capitalist Machine" is what caused the war in Iraq?
Joe Bag O Donuts | 01.27.07 - 1:46 pm | #

I look at drag queens and really queeny acting gay guys with the same disdain that African-Americans looked at minstrel shows, Step'n Fetchit and Amos and Andy.

There is a HUGE difference. Drag queens and 'really queeny acting gay guys' are being themselves and not doing it for money. Amos and Andy were not being themselves and did it for profit, possible at the expense of their communities.

You need to own up to your bias and prejudice. It is process for all of us, not just you.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 1:47 pm | #

do we have any numbers on how many people are at the rally today in DC?
Chris from Maine | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:47 pm | #

I'm a bottom, but I appear totally masculine. C'mon folks, butch up!
BiGuy | 01.27.07 - 1:43 pm | #

'So much for stereotypes.
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 1:49 pm | #

Chris from Maine: There aren't any good aerial pics, really. I'd guess more than 10k probably. Maybe much more. I'm not good at counting folks, and neither is the media, really.
Zoner | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:49 pm | #

'So much for stereotypes.
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 1:49 pm | #

He sounds like a Log Cabin Republican.
Joe Bag O Donuts | 01.27.07 - 1:50 pm | #

Zoner-

Take a closer look at that site, please.

Urging war supporters eligible to serve (that means healthy heterosexuals 41 and under) to volunteer for military service is a wonderful sentiment for that big crowd in Washington to express, personally and directly.

Like, who can be against that?

[Especially since Be A Man! Enlist! shuts them all up quite quickly.]
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 1:51 pm | #

GARY SF:

Yes, there will always be 'spin' from the Corporate Media. However, the message of the protesters still came through.. and the sheer number of people who came out, and the organization made an impact on people too.

My point is, that if we have organized and focused protests. We may actually speed up the process of stopping the incompetant and unneccessary War in Iraq.

If we stay on message.. you may also find allies where you least expect it. The person marching next to you might even be a Republican. A lot of the Moderates are pissed off too..
MarcInLosAngeles | 01.27.07 - 1:52 pm | #

And, another thing - I don't think it's necessary to have Susan Sarandon & her partner Tim, Fonda or other actors/actressess speak. I don't go to these events to hear C-E-L-E-B-R-I-T-I-E-S! It is NOT about them. Lt. Watada's parents could have had more time than Jane Fonda, for crissakes, as with those who have established veterans organizations.
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:52 pm | #

Chris in Maine et al:

While this probably is understood, I feel the need to say it:

While I occasionally disagree with you, I fully embrace almost everything you stand for.

We are in this fight together.

Once we get rid of Bush and get our country back on track, we can let our disagreements divide us, but only if we are foolish and allow that to happen. But for now, agreeing 90% of the time is solidarity for me.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 1:53 pm | #

There's a great way for Jane Fonda to help Stop the War in Iraq:

Stay Home!
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 1:54 pm | #

lol gary, just havin a discussion, no worries. :)
Chris from Maine | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:54 pm | #

Ohh, I didn't read that well enough, I guess. I thought that was a pro-war site, not a make-pro-war-people-look-like-idiots site :D

Either way that's funny :D
Zoner | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:54 pm | #

I'd much rather hear Lt. Watada's parents than some airhead celebrity.

Gay Sailor Allen Schindler's mother was great speaking at the 1993 March.
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 1:55 pm | #

Hey J.

Drag queens don't do damn metaphors!

Watch your innards, baby. Cause you're hatred is showin'.

Snap snap.
Domo | 01.27.07 - 1:55 pm | #

I'm Jewish and I will never understand why Israel is the bad guy in this conflict. Have the United States ever had to conceed land after winning it in conflict? No. Why should they. If anyone is responsible for the mess it's Egypt, Syria because the land in dispite is land won from the time that they tried to invade Israel in I believe the late 60's. Everytime Israel gives up settlements it's never enough yet Israel is always the bad guy according to morons like this. IT's truly disgusting.
Erik Weinberger | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:56 pm | #

I hate our 'culture of celebrity and bling' but it is was we have. Let the 'stars' speak. The only folks that will be alienated are those on the far right anyway.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 1:56 pm | #

Yeah, Tim Robbins and Sean Penn and Hanoi Jane and Susan Sarandon and even Jesse Jackson only subtract credibility from that event for me. I really could care less about what any of them thought.
Zoner | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:56 pm | #

Zoner-

And, since Operation Yellow Elephant's focused on a very narrow topic, we can attract support from all across the political spectrum.

Like, even conservative Republicans are quite embarrassed that the Yellow Elephants are such pussies!

Be A Man! Enlist!
Operation Yellow Elephant | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:57 pm | #

John I TOTALLY disagree with you, I'm sorry.
The ONLY way to peace in Iraq, if it can ever be attained especially now, is, as someone else says, through Jerusalem. The Iraq war was created and promoted by a host of neo-conservative Jews who completely feel that America is a colony of Israel, and that what is good for Israel is good for America. This is pernicious because it is not true. Netanyahu invented the idea of a (phony) "war in terror" as far back as 1986. I am a Jew and USED to be a Zionist all my life. But when I read and educated myself about how the Zionists (especially the New York Jews with money) have been corrupting and infiltrating our government with AIPAC money,it was easy to promote a war with Iraq which ONLY was in the interest of Israel because Saddam was a threat, and the idea of an oil pipeline from Baghdad to Haifa has always been on its agenda. These neo-cons through PNAC adopted and created 9/11 and you know very well that Mossad played an immense role in 9/11. The Arabs who had planned to fly planes into the WTC long ago were NOT jealous of our freedoms but mad at the U.S. for taking Israel's side in the Palestinian conflict. It has become a taboo to even mention the word Israel in a bad light; Even Carter to his huge credit has seen the problem EXACTLY and how oppressive the apartheid is against the Palestinians, even worse, much worse, than in South Africa.
It;s all aboit oil, hegemony and greed. Amd our politicians, from Hillary down are almost all marching to Israel's tune. The problem is that Israel has NEVER wanted peace with the Oalestinians and never will. They may have a conference noiw anmd then to appease the world but that's my opinion and that of many others in the world.The Israeli juggernaut HAS GIT to be broken, or America will go down. We already are and Israel is still never mentioned until now. Slowly people are waking up to this nightmare.They may lable me anti-Semitic but I am a Jew and used to be a Zionist but am emphatically anti-Zionist now. They have mad me ashamed of beimg a Jew. America is my country not Israel.Now Israel is pushing us to fight its dirty little war with Iran almost certainly through a false flag, just like it did in 9/11. The Israelis are false flag experts.
mystic | 01.27.07 - 2:00 pm | #

Zoner | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:56 pm

Given the fact that you still refer to Jane Fonda as "Hanoi Jane" your opinion not surprising.

Maybe put down the pipe, or whatever is Zoning you, it's 2007.
Joe Bag O Donuts | 01.27.07 - 2:00 pm | #

Erik Weinberger | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:56 pm | #

I think that more than 'Israel as the bad guy' issue, it is the issue of the motives and impact of the pro-Israeli neocons in our 'war' with Iraq that piss-off people. Many people think that this war is part of a bigger, pro-Israeli plan by the neocons.

And Israel does not help its cause much. There needs to be a two country solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict period. Get used to it.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 2:00 pm | #

Erik,

Israel is the bad guy because they are an occupying force, in a land that is not theirs. There are also, so many other reasons why the Israel is the bad guy .
Coming Undone | 01.27.07 - 2:01 pm | #

I hate Israel. I hate it cause it doesn't exist in any moral reality. It is a thug on the edge of humanity. Kill Israel now.
Domo | 01.27.07 - 2:02 pm | #

Jane Fonda is nutso. She alienates.
Zoner | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 2:03 pm | #

Domo:

Will you please tell us how you really feel?
Zoner | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 2:03 pm | #

you dimwhitts who condem jane fonda get your ass to iraq!!!!!godbless your asses , then walk down some garbage covered street and wait for that fucking bullet to split your fucking skull , by the gods your twat heads would be wishing some one like fonda was screaming her head off to gety your cady ass out of thier ,
tyree | 01.27.07 - 2:04 pm | #

Does Jane Fonda add anything more substantial than any number of other speakers one could put up? I think not.
Dave of the Jungle | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 2:04 pm | #

Sorry. I was otherwise occupied.
Domo | 01.27.07 - 2:04 pm | #

"Many people think that this war is part of a bigger, pro-Israeli plan by the neocons."

At a minimum, there is a significant number of Christians, to which Bush belongs, who support Israel for Biblical reasons and cannot wait for the second coming.
Joe Bag O Donuts | 01.27.07 - 2:05 pm | #

Listen, I'm very happy that people are speaking against the war. I mean I'm posting on Americablog. Obviously I lean a little to the left. I just think that carrying on a rational conversation with Jane Fonda is probably impossible.

However, when people that actually matter, like the parents of soldiers in Iraq, or veterans speak, I pay attention.
Zoner | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 2:07 pm | #

I look at drag queens and really queeny acting gay guys with the same disdain that African-Americans looked at minstrel shows, Step'n Fetchit and Amos and Andy.
-snip-
BiGuy | 01.27.07 - 1:43 pm | #
=============================

Man - then you really do deserve every nasty thing gay men have ever said about BiGuys
Brilett | 01.27.07 - 2:11 pm | #

I heard 100,000 and growing.

Freepers D.C. Chapter 50 to 100
Buster | 01.27.07 - 2:12 pm | #

fonda got closer to vietnam than the wanking chimp/cheney ever did. she should be allowed to speak!
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 2:12 pm | #

fonda got closer to vietnam than the wanking chimp/cheney ever did. she should be allowed to speak!
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 2:12 pm

LOL, good point.
Joe Bag O Donuts | 01.27.07 - 2:13 pm | #

What Fonda proved over in Vietnam is that the enemy is willing to lay down their arms and listen.

Thats what the Hanoi Jane haters don't like.
Buster | 01.27.07 - 2:13 pm | #

I heard 100,000 and growing.

Freepers D.C. Chapter 50 to 100
Buster | 01.27.07 - 2:12 pm | #

I dunno, C-Span said "several thousand" before they switched over to a Hillary campaign rally in Iowa.
Zoner | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 2:14 pm | #

Anonymous - 2:12 pm
= = =
Oops, that was me
smoke | 01.27.07 - 2:14 pm | #

I dunno, C-Span said "several thousand" before they switched over to a Hillary campaign rally in Iowa.
Zoner | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 2:14 pm |

Fudging the numbers is nothing new with the Bush media.
Buster | 01.27.07 - 2:15 pm | #

Who would have thought this blog would have devolved to Hanoi Jane, Drag Queens and anti-Israeli rhetoric?

Well, I did. I saw it coming years ago.

Really. I did.
Domo | 01.27.07 - 2:15 pm | #

"The Latino Immigration Marches last year, gave an excellent example of what a protest COULD be. Millons of people marching peacefully, about a single issue. The Media and the Nation were forced to take notice."

A single issue? I was at a huge rally in NYC and some of the speakers talked about Israel. There were even some Mumia people there, and a bunch of communists. Know what? Nobody minded.

If people don't like the way this rally was organized, they should really put one together themselves.
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 2:15 pm | #

I've organized a rally myself. It happens to be in my pants but hey, that's just me.

And isn't this really what it's all about? Self pleasuring as a national agenda? A goal to share with everyone else, damn them anyway?

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to moisten you. Really.
Domo | 01.27.07 - 2:19 pm | #

On the contrary, I think Israel is a big part of the problem in the Middle East.
Their continued aggression and our support contribute in a large degree to the hated of Americans.

Having said that, I agree that the demonstration should stick to Iraq.
aquarius2 | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 2:20 pm | #

Anti-Israeli rhetoric, really, Anti-Israeli rhetoric. Please, Please people can we never, ever, ever, never say anything against Israel?
Coming Undone | 01.27.07 - 2:20 pm | #

If people don't like the way this rally was organized, they should really put one together themselves.
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 2:15 pm | #

Or they should accept the fact that perfection does not exist. We should focus upon the greater good and not the trivial things.

I don't understand there is tolerance over the lopsided media coverage of any event. At gay pride, the find the most outrageous drag queen and that is what J.Q.6pack sees. Do they focus upon the rapes that have occurred during the various Mardi Gras celebrations? Nope!
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 2:21 pm | #

I watched some of it on C-Span.
But as usual the MSM is doing it's best to downplay it and add in GOP taking points at the same time.
Blue Jersey | 01.27.07 - 2:25 pm | #

At gay pride, the find the most outrageous drag queen and that is what J.Q.6pack sees. Do they focus upon the rapes that have occurred during the various Mardi Gras celebrations? Nope!
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 2:21 pm | #

=====================
Yeah - but at least focusing on outrageous drag queens, leather guys, and mardi gras costumes is vaguely appropriate for a festival - being a fun event.

It's focusing on them - when they're not germane to the event - at other events - that's a problem. If a leather guy were making an important speech at the event - just fine.

Pridefests? it really is like taking pictures of people in costume at Mardu Gras - s'OK.
Brilett | 01.27.07 - 2:26 pm | #

Great point, Gary SF.
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 2:26 pm | #

It's not Israels fault. It's the guys who run Israels fault.

Both Israelis and Palestinians are productive, creative people with much to offer the world.

It's to bad thats completely overlooked amid the background noise of the Israeli-Arab conflict.
Miller | 01.27.07 - 2:28 pm | #

BiGuy | 01.27.07 - 1:43 pm
***********************************************

Spoken out of ignorance like a true bigot!
MargaretPOA | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 2:31 pm | #

HuffPo has a few pics up on its site

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/
tireiron chef | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 2:32 pm | #

MargaretPOA | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 2:31 pm | #

But remember Margaret, he is a masculine bottom.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 2:33 pm | #

Who would have thought this blog would have devolved to Hanoi Jane, Drag Queens and anti-Israeli rhetoric?

Well, I did. I saw it coming years ago.

Really. I did.
Domo | 01.27.07 - 2:15 pm

And....

I hate Israel. I hate it cause it doesn't exist in any moral reality. It is a thug on the edge of humanity. Kill Israel now.
Domo | 01.27.07 - 2:02 pm

WTF?
MargaretPOA | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 2:35 pm | #

Unfortunately, people use these rallies for their own pet agendas.

Anyone care to wager that somewhere in that crowd is someone holding a sign or wearing a shirt that says:

Free Mumia.

Feel free to ask that assclown to leave.
Left of Arizona | 01.27.07 - 2:35 pm | #

But remember Margaret, he is a masculine bottom.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 2:33 pm
************************************************

Oh, I'll bet.....
MargaretPOA | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 2:36 pm | #

Left of Arizona | 01.27.07 - 2:35 pm | #
====

And those gays at St. Patrick's Day Parades too!
Brilett | 01.27.07 - 2:36 pm | #

People like BiGuy and to some extent Chris in Paris hold very little credibility for me. They constantly gripe about how they are being mistreated and their rights are trampled while simultaneously attempting to stifle or deny other peoples' rights. There's a word for that. Hypocrisy.
MargaretPOA | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 2:38 pm | #

I know I always cringed at the fellow who was ubiquitous in SF parades throughout the early 90's as Jesus with high heels and a cross.
I came out to co-workers in 1981...friends had known since high school in the early 70s.
Drama, poetry club and yearbook may have given them a clue but the crusading teen journalist rebaffled.
I lied to serve in the US Army in the late 70s and served without too much difficulty.
I was always the best boy role model, a friend once said I was “the most self-disciplined human” she had ever known.”
The older I get the more I tire of claims that alleged delicate public sensibilities can and must impinge upon questions of law...I can only think of Mrs. Alito's staged tears as a lonely example.
The best art, food and politics upset one's equilibrium; jangle the sensibilities and sensitivities to help achieve a here to fore inexperienced concept, taste or thought.
To steal a phrase from Ms. Dowd (not like she hasn't) "it requires an exquisite kind of lunacy" to imagine social change happening with a yawn, a regular pulse and the niceties of a cliché 50s church social.
Prezzildent Despondent | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 2:39 pm | #

A peace sign and one that says "burn the liars".... Sorta sums it up doesn't it?
MargaretPOA | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 2:39 pm | #

You know, in the civil rights marches people dressed as if they were going to church, and that probably had alot to do with their effectiveness.

The psychological impact of seeing police dogs sicced on women in dresses and gloves, and men in suits and hats, was even more powerful than it would have been had they been dressed in everyday clothes.
Sadie Baker | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 2:40 pm | #

=THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE=

Thank you, John, for posting this. I've reprinted most of it at my blog [/blogwhore]. I hope you don't mind. I tuned in at about the same time you did and heard the same idiot -- and promptly turned it off.

I am so sick and tired of these morons with their fringe causes taking over these rallies. Every time there's a march against this war, someone is there advocating the dismantling of Israel, or and end to meat-eating, or my own personal favorite, the "Free Mumia!" sign -- which is starting to get as tired as the nightly Britney Spears updates.

The reason the left hasn't accomplished anything in the last ten years is because we allow the fringe to muddy the message. Ending the war is a mainstream message. But by letting these fringe speakers take up all the face time, the organizers of these marches guarantee that they will be relegated to the margins in perpetuity.
Jill | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 2:47 pm | #

The reality is that we may cringe at the 'Burn the Liars' bumper sticker, but let's get real: These same types of extreme messages are broadcast on radio and television to tens of millions of people. How many times have you heard an extreme message from the left on radio or TV?

While it is nice to think that we can extinguish these extreme voices, it will never happen. It is even difficult for an organization to distance itself from them.

Within every activist movement and group there exists the potential for disappointment.

Keep focusing upon the objectives. A triage mentality may been needed. Do we first go after the 100 cars that may have offensive bumper stickers or the radio and television stations that regularly broadcast their hatred and violence?
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 2:47 pm | #

Hillary is speaking the word on C-Span right now.
ChicagoKid | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 2:48 pm | #

Biguy - I have lived a long life as a gay man who is not "queeny," your word, not mine. I served in the USAF all over the world. I am a parent. My career was in the field of child sexual abuse (now retired), and I was respected as a gay man in that field. I am very surprised that you openly admit your bigotry and shallow worldview regarding gays, by saying you "disdain" Drag Queens. What is there to "disdain?" Everyone has the right to be herself or himself. I need to leave this discussion, but I am concerned that you have yet to learn how to treat others with the respect and dignity that they deserve, including Drag Queens. Perhaps you are young. Perhaps you simply have not matured to the point where "disdain" should be felt only toward those who lie, cheat, deceive, bomb innocent women and babies and children, and homophobes who smash Drag Queens heads into bloody pieces. No "disdain," is misplaced if it is directed toward "queeny men" and Drag Queens. Probably you also "disdain" gay men over forty, or gay men who do not have the body of an Adonis. Your loss. PEACE
thomas | 01.27.07 - 2:48 pm | #

I suppose that the purpose of these rallys are to show solidarity and to garner as much media attention as possible in order to strengthen the cause. In my humbble opinion Fonda's appearance has doomed the rally. My generation that endured her during the VietNam War will automatically recall every negative aspect of those earlier rallies and times and unfairly heap it upon todays demonstrators. Why in the hell didn't she stay home with Kerry?
Honest George | 01.27.07 - 2:51 pm | #

Sadie Baker | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 2:40 pm

Yes, they did march in their Sunday best and I think that was their intention, to make racial equality more palatable to the main stream.

Hiding their blackness.

One time I was sitting in a bar and this guy said, You know, straight people don't mind if you're gay, as long as you don't act like it. He was all happy about learning this from his straight neighbors.

So then, what do we win, if we have to hide who we really are?
Joe Bag O Donuts | 01.27.07 - 2:52 pm | #

The reason the left hasn't accomplished anything in the last ten years is because we allow the fringe to muddy the message. Ending the war is a mainstream message. But by letting these fringe speakers take up all the face time, the organizers of these marches guarantee that they will be relegated to the margins in perpetuity.
Jill | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 2:47 pm | #

Keep pure Jill. No need to dirty your hands with a rally where there may be a handful of voices that you disagree with.

You analysis is not logical. If the 'fringe muddying the message' is disempowering, just how do you explain the success of the republicans? It is their fringe voices that have fueled their success.

Not that I am advocating for fringe voices with extreme messages. I am just demonstrating the fallacy of your logic.

It is, in part, that we allow the media to define us that we appear the way we do.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 2:52 pm | #

This site is webcam for DC - check out 3rd and Constitution:

http://www.trafficland.com/finda...e=flat& map=100#
Mrs. Frog | 01.27.07 - 2:56 pm | #

Honest George | 01.27.07 - 2:51 pm

By negative aspects do you mean the National Guard killing students? Do you mean the police beating protestors with billy clubs? Do you mean the water cannons?

Or do you mean someone being labeled a traitor for exercising their right to free speech?
Joe Bag O Donuts | 01.27.07 - 2:56 pm | #

The big reason that liberals haven't accomplished much in ten years is the fact that the media spin that message to make everybody on the left look extremist. I still hear news outlets reporting anti war people as the "liberal left" when it's a mainstream position. Yet as long as their advertizers are happy, they are happy. Responsibility went out the window in the eighties thanks in part to many of the same people that are in power right now.
MargaretPOA | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 2:57 pm | #

hilley says useing chickenshit will be the future when it comes to fueling cars!
tyree | 01.27.07 - 3:01 pm | #

Is expressing love for Jews a prerequisite before speaking about the Israeli occupation of Palestine?
Noura - from France | 01.27.07 - 3:02 pm | #

hillery
tyree | 01.27.07 - 3:02 pm | #

tyree does that include chickenshitS like Bush and Cheney? I'd volunteer to grind them up and see if my car can run on their vile, evil remains
American Psycho | 01.27.07 - 3:03 pm | #

I found nothing offensive about Fonda joining the rally. Some of her actions during the Vietnam war were admirable, some were not - much of it was sculpted by the media spinners then as now. I'm sure there was a fair amount of "swiftboating" of her then as now.
Her message now is good, and I didn't hear a bunch of boos. I heard people cheearing, clapping, and saying, thanks Jane.
Mrs. Frog | 01.27.07 - 3:04 pm | #

Perhaps you simply have not matured to the point where "disdain" should be felt only toward those who lie, cheat, deceive, bomb innocent women and babies and children, and homophobes who smash Drag Queens heads into bloody pieces

Living in the 'mo-packed boonies of fly-over country, I've learned to nip "disdain" in the bud. Nothing gives greater satisfaction, I've found, than directly, politely but aggressively challenging some closeted and usually obese red necked clown or sour old biddy who thinks they've made a cute remark out of my earshot.
They snivel and back down like the repressed cowardly sneaks they are.
Truth, light...it sets you free and refreshes!
Prezzildent Despondent | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 3:06 pm | #

Noura - from France | 01.27.07 - 3:02 pm | #

Double standard over here. You don't have to have a love of Catholics to speak of France or Arabs to speak of Iraq. Big taboo.
Mrs. Frog | 01.27.07 - 3:06 pm | #

Is expressing love for Jews a prerequisite before speaking about the Israeli occupation of Palestine?
Noura - from France | 01.27.07 - 3:02 pm | #

No, but expressing hatred for Jews should not be tolerated.

Since many historians believe that modern antisemitism has its roots in the economic expansion in France in the 13th century, your post from France is quite a coincidence.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 3:07 pm | #

I thought the hip hop guy was kind of lame!

If they wanted a protest song they should have played a tape of this:

Masters Of War by Pearl Jam at the Bob Dylan 40th anniversary

http://www3.youtube.com/watch?v=...h? v=r8GHBk_HSXg
American Psycho | 01.27.07 - 3:09 pm | #

well american i suppose that even bullshit or pig dung will do the same thing and both cheny and bush consist of both!
tyree | 01.27.07 - 3:10 pm | #

There will be no peace anywhere in teh Mideast until there is peace, which demands justice, in Palestine.

Sorry, but Americans have to face the evil that is inb the Bush administration and the Israelis have to face the eveil that is in their leadership.

They are both cut from the same rotten cloth and do not represent what is good in either society.
nmac | 01.27.07 - 3:10 pm | #

why is some woman from the "US Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation" speaking?

You need to spend some time inside a serious activist organization to really discover why.

As a political activist, I understand where your frustration comes from. However, these rally's are not some simple "event" that is organized in a week. It takes, many hundreds of man hours. Meetings with local law enforcement, the city, arranging permits, facilities, traffic, organizing volunteers, marketing/advertising, conflict intervention volunteers, yadda, yadda.

These events are not simple. In order to pull these events off successfully, such that nobody gets hurt, that it appears organized (if not, you get pummeled in the press and media) and the event leaves a good public impression, you need to involve many, many groups. Each of these activist organizations have their own causes and in order to pull this stuff off, you need to give mic time to each group. Not to mention the internal politics that needs to be worked out (i.e. Black Bloc/anarchists vs. peace and justice groups all want to participate; A.N.S.W.E.R. vs. ...well just about everyone :P ).

You try to keep everyone on topic, but you can't be too specific with huge events, or the event will. not. happen.
Simp | 01.27.07 - 3:10 pm | #

Meant the Bob Dylan "30th" anniverary celebration
American Psycho | 01.27.07 - 3:10 pm | #

Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 3:07 pm | #

And... many historians believe that modern acceptance of endless occupation of Palestine has it roots in the economic and geographic expansion of Israel in the 20th century. Expression of hatred for Catholics, Jews, Arabs, etc., all should also not be tolerated, as it only creates more division of the human race.
Mrs. Frog | 01.27.07 - 3:11 pm | #

The congress MUST stop the funding of the war. If they don't then they aren't serious about ending the war!
American Psycho | 01.27.07 - 3:12 pm | #

Joe: I mean the photo's of Jane languishing on the cannon in VietNam, of Jane meeting with Viet Cong leaders. Of Jane speaking with vituperation against American servicemen at every chance. I also mean the scenes of the soldiers getting off the ships at Stoneman and the Port of Oakland being called 'Baby Killers" by protestors. etc. etc.
Honest George | 01.27.07 - 3:14 pm | #

Double standard over here. You don't have to have a love of Catholics to speak of France or Arabs to speak of Iraq. Big taboo.
Mrs. Frog | 01.27.07 - 3:06 pm | #

WTF?

I have seen several posts questioning that the holocaust even existed, or discounting the actual numbers of people slaughtered within the context of discussing Israel and the Palestinians. At it's core, this is hatred and bigotry.

To implore people to recognize the difference between the words Jew and Israel when they are discussing this conflict is not imploring them to love Jews. For someone to think that it is imploring them to love Jews is an indication of their bigotry.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 3:14 pm | #

C-SPAN had one of the protest organizers on this morning, a former congressman (name forgotten)

He disappointed me when he didn't comment one word about a callers question on the war and oil connection or the Iraq oil laws/agreement that is coming out soon that will give companies like Exxon big slices of the pie.
American Psycho | 01.27.07 - 3:19 pm | #

And... many historians believe that modern acceptance of endless occupation of Palestine has it roots in the economic and geographic expansion of Israel in the 20th century.
Mrs. Frog

While there are many underlying reasons for the acceptance of the 'endless occupation,' what historians say that it has anything to to with economic expansion?
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 3:21 pm | #

" Honest George"

I don't think so. Please link to the sites that claim soldiers were being called "baby killers" that exist outside the wingnut blogosphere. You seem to have bought up the right wing noise machine output in its entirety.

Mrs. Peel | 01.27.07 - 3:21 pm | #

Honest George, some of the troops did kill babies in Nam.
American Psycho | 01.27.07 - 3:25 pm | #

Honest George | 01.27.07 - 3:14 pm

Isn't it interesting how two people can exerience the same thing, yet remember it so differently?
Joe Bag O Donuts | 01.27.07 - 3:26 pm | #

Shorter John: "Some of my best friends are drag queens, but...."

I find this thread stunningly retro. It's a complete reprise of the '80s "After the Ball" debate. Talk about repeating history.

I have news for you, John: It doesn't matter how much you attempt to clean up the "image" of homosexuality. As long as "Christian values" guide the dominant culture, homosexuality is going to be branded offensive -- regardless of how good gay men look in their A&F getups. By this time in our history, you should well understand that.

My favorite example is Jerry Falwell's peddling a video about "disgusting" gay life (gay porn for fundamentalists) as a fund-raising tool some years ago. The video included footage of the Folsom Street Fair. They also went into bars undercover and shot pictures. The point is: It doesn't matter HOW you present the public face. Our opponents are still going to find the most outrageous imagery to pathologize us. And that in effect is a way for them to control their own impulses. Homosexuality is a sin precisely because it's a temptation.

I thought gay pride parades and rallies were about celebrating our difference, not marketing an image to reporters.

As for the speeches that annoy you: Do you want hours of the same points made by different people over and over? Maybe some of the topics are over the top, but such rallies usually involve coalitions of different interest groups.

It's a good thing you weren't at the original march on the Pentagon, as I was, John. You would have been horrified by the failure of us to follow a single agenda.
occasionalreader | 01.27.07 - 3:26 pm | #

Excellent point. I could not agree more or say enough about this annoyance/problem.

The more I read good blogs, the more I find the community I identify with. In Portland, Oregon, where I live, every Friday there are protesters with anti Iraq war signs but they also chant "end the occupation. Isreal out of Palestine" and the like.
Jason | 01.27.07 - 3:27 pm | #

Bah.. forgot to add one more very important thought.

The larger issue here is, and you illustrate the issue perfectly:

All of these issues are not disconnected. They are all part of the larger problem and the fact that you don't realize it IS part of the problem.

All inter-connected issues. We are working towards Peace and Justice for All.
Simp | 01.27.07 - 3:28 pm | #

Of course the ills of the world are connected. I don't think anybody's really questioning that. The issue is to come up with the best and most effective and quickest way to end the war in Iraq. We can discuss political theory later. Broadening the fight only insures that nothing will get done.
Ed Sikov | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 3:31 pm | #

I don't think so. Please link to the sites that claim soldiers were being called "baby killers" that exist outside the wingnut blogosphere. You seem to have bought up the right wing noise machine output in its entirety.

Mrs. Peel | 01.27.07 - 3:21 pm | #

Not to side with a wingnut, but it was a turbulent time and there was a high 'shame factor' in many returning soldiers. This was not helped by our ignorance - many people treated returning soldiers poorly. Concealing one's service because of shame - even though most were drafted - was quite common here in California. This hiding created an atmosphere where soldiers who had experienced trauma, incident stress and the other horrors of war were not able to discuss it or otherwise deal with it. It is one reasons why we see so many post traumatic related issues to this day in these veterans.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 3:32 pm | #

the truth is we had no buisness being in vietnam! haveing fought in korea i remember the korean war had ended and the french were still fighting in indo china , and were getting thier ass handed to them by the viet min ike pulled us bach from korea sent us to the phillippenes in preperation for sending us into indo china to pull the frenc chestnuts out of the fire , i though bullshit its one thing to help the south koreans stay free and another to keep the vietnamese people subjugated by a bunch of frog mercinarys , luckly the french were defeated at dien bin fo , so america dodged that bullet in 54, but the truth is sigon ment nothing to the average vietnamese citizen as they all had thier own governments in thier villiages , and cared not one shit if they were communist or a capitilist country!
tyree | 01.27.07 - 3:34 pm | #

We are working towards Peace and Justice for All.

Good call. Maybe someone will do a little medley of Sondheim tunes when it's their turn at the mike. Maybe we should combine grandma's birthday with our daughters wedding so there'll be something for everyone.

Maybe you'll always be an ineffectual boob because you have no idea how to get anything accomplished. An agenda that's a mile wide and an inch deep is useless.
Mrs. Peel | 01.27.07 - 3:35 pm | #

there was a high 'shame factor' in many returning soldiers.

mostly because of fairy-tales about hippies spitting on soldiers and the "baby killer" propaganda circulated by the same right wing liars that are smearing the protesters today.
Mrs. Peel | 01.27.07 - 3:38 pm | #

Gary SF:

To implore people to recognize the difference between the words that describe religious affiliation and the words that describe government policies when they are discussing this conflict is imperative if the situation is ever to have a chance of being resolved.

In this country, it seems to be considered a religious slander if one discusses Israel. When one discusses France and their governmental policies, the fact that the country has a Catholic majority is not an issue that causes a rift in the discussion. If we were speaking about France, I doubt you would have reacted this way. Immediately calling bigotry is your problem and your perspective.

"Loving Jews" or "Loving Catholics" is not the point - the poster was not from an English speaking country -
the meaning is somewhat lost in translation. You can't assume that poster is a bigot.
Mrs. Frog | 01.27.07 - 3:41 pm | #

there was a high 'shame factor' in many returning soldiers.

mostly because of fairy-tales about hippies spitting on soldiers and the "baby killer" propaganda circulated by the same right wing liars that are smearing the protesters today.
Mrs. Peel | 01.27.07 - 3:38 pm | #

Uh, were you around during this time? I am as left as can be, but this was not a misrepresentation by right-wing liars. I remember clearly, in the early days, protesters with mis-directed anger verbally attacking returning GIs. I remember lots of fights breaking out.

It was a learning process for us all. Happily, most of us evolved.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 3:41 pm | #

[Mrs. Peel | 01.27.07 - 3:38 pm]

I've come to this discussion a bit late. However, THAT was MY era. I was in high school and later in the military when the war ended.

You're exactly correct. There has been nothing to substantiate the bullshit line about returning soldiers from Vietnam being called 'baby killers' and being spat upon. If whomever it is that's making this claim, provide the proof, bucko.
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 3:43 pm | #

C-SPAN had one of the protest organizers on this morning, a former congressman (name forgotten)

Was it 'American Journal'?

He disappointed me when he didn't comment one word about a callers question on the war and oil connection or the Iraq oil laws/agreement that is coming out soon that will give companies like Exxon big slices of the pie.

And yet, you forgot his name? Goodness. [American Psycho | 01.27.07 - 3:19 pm]
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 3:45 pm | #

I agree with John. Rallies tend to lose their effectiveness when a bunch of nutcases go off the reservation, as it were.

I have no sympathy for Palestine. They've had so many chances at peace agreements that offered pretty much every thing they wanted, but they have refused every one of them. Why? Who knows. Maybe they enjoy acting like terrorists. I don't know and, frankly, I'm tired of their crap.
Lori | 01.27.07 - 3:46 pm | #

You're remembering fairy tales. My brother is a big butch ex marine and if some "hippy" spit on him, said hippy would have had about 2 inches of his neck bitten out. Funny I don't remember hearing about anything like that taking place. Nor have I ever read a credible media report about "spitting" taking place. They only exist on Wingnut Daily.
Mrs. Peel | 01.27.07 - 3:46 pm | #

"Loving Jews" or "Loving Catholics" is not the point - the poster was not from English speaking country -
the meaning is somewhat lost in translation. You can't assume that poster is a bigot.
Mrs. Frog | 01.27.07 - 3:41 pm | #

I assume that most Europeans are bigots and racists. My bias, but it is frequently validated.

When was the last time you saw an ethnic minority or immigrant working in a middle class job outside of a ghetto in most European countries?

How often does antisemitism rear its ugly face in France and Austria?

When have you heard a northern European refer to anything in Southern Europe as being good - other than the beaches?

While we have a lot of issues with race and immigration in the US, we are light-years more advanced to most of Europe.

I regularly travel to Europe and will be living there in a few years. But they do have problems. Some, worse than ours.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 3:47 pm | #

[Mrs. Peel | 01.27.07 - 3:46 pm]

Bingo!
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 3:48 pm | #

I have no sympathy for Palestine. They've had so many chances at peace agreements that offered pretty much every thing they wanted, but they have refused every one of them. Why? Who knows. Maybe they enjoy acting like terrorists. I don't know and, frankly, I'm tired of their crap. [Lori | 01.27.07 - 3:46 pm]

Geez, the way I feel about Israel.
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 3:49 pm | #

I agree with John. Something about those two turned me off and for a short time I left the TV.
SeanGA | 01.27.07 - 3:51 pm | #

You can pull "he said - she said" all day. Proof if you please.
Mrs. Peel | 01.27.07 - 3:54 pm | #

"I have no sympathy for Palestine. They've had so many chances at peace agreements that offered pretty much every thing they wanted, but they have refused every one of them. Why? Who knows. Maybe they enjoy acting like terrorists. I don't know and, frankly, I'm tired of their crap. [Lori | 01.27.07 - 3:46 pm]
Geez, the way I feel about Israel."

Which is why the situation is utterly hopeless and will end in nuclear calamity and even then it won't end because out of the ashes will arise more hatred.

Have a nice day.
Ed Sikov | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 3:55 pm | #

Click on my homepage below to check out the scenes from the protest in Portland, Maine I atteneded today.

It was a lot of fun!!!
KayInMaine | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 3:57 pm | #

So if you didn't hear about it, I guess it didn't exist. My mistake. [Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 3:49 pm]

I'm saying that NONE of the hundreds upon hundreds of soldiers with whom I came into contact with thruout my time in the military EVER said anything about being called names or spat upon by ANYONE when they returned from Vietnam or ANYONE found out they had served in Vietnam. Plenty of glares. Not to mention the hundreds & thousands I've come in contact with since.
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 3:58 pm | #

Gary SF:

I agree with much that you say. I grew up mostly in Europe. The problem in Europe I believe is more a cultural nationalism that results from territorial divisions in a relatively compact geographical area. My father was a diplomat from a northern European country. That country has a lot of immigrants from the Middle East who have assimilated over the years. They do not live in ghettos in that country (although they may live in close proximity to each other due to cultural continuity), they have regular jobs, and they speak the language as well as those who have lived there for centuries. There is, however, a distinct bias among the nationalistic citizens all over Europe against each other and everybody else - I agree. My father always reminded me though that those who think they are "native" of any country in Europe have roots from all over Europe due to the shift in population during and following the Black Death (as much as 75% of the population of Europe was killed by the disease). So nationalism everywhere is ridiculous and destructive on this earth. Just look at how the Native Americans were and are treated in this country - and really, who knows for sure where they originated. It is all stupid in the end.
Mrs. Frog | 01.27.07 - 4:00 pm | #

You can pull "he said - she said" all day. Proof if you please.
Mrs. Peel | 01.27.07 - 3:54 pm | #

I was at several anti-war rallies in Southern California. Many resulted in fist fights. In the later years of the war we evolved to recognize the soldiers as victims of the war as well.

I don't have any 'proof' other than what I saw. And the wingnuts did not control the media in those days. Almost all popular culture was against the war.

But your mind is already made up, so proof would be a waste of time.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 4:00 pm | #

I was one of those hippies when the Vietnam war ended and I for one wouldn't have even considered spitting or cursing at one of our servicemembers. Somebody in the Joint Chiefs or a member of the administration absolutely but service people? Never even entered my mind or any of my freinds' minds to the best of my recollection.
MargaretPOA | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:00 pm | #

Can someone please tell me how to watch the peace rally? I've checked cspan on my tv and on line. There's not only no coverage, it's not even being mentioned. I've checked CSPAN on satellite, Headline news, MSNBC, nothing.
No updates on any website (except this one). No coverage on liberal or independent media on line. Nothing. Does anyone have any info on where the rally can be watched online? TKS.
Candymarl | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:04 pm | #

Candy - Go to CSPAN's website. I watched the march, etc., this morning.
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:05 pm | #

so proof would be a waste of time.

Not at all. I used to believe that it was true until no definitive proof of the fact could ever be produced. Since the news at that time was all over every aspect of the war protesters, you'd think something as outrageous as that would have made a byline somewhere.
Mrs. Peel | 01.27.07 - 4:06 pm | #

Gary:

This was something you saw at anti-war rallies?
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:07 pm | #

I'm sure there was some spitting and cursing going on. My freind Clifford said that he put up with some ugly words when he came back though I wasn't there at the time to confirm it. I know that anybody that hung around our group that so much as cursed at a returning vet would have been hurt pretty badly before it was over.
MargaretPOA | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:08 pm | #

He disappointed me

He was a former congressman...what did 'ya expect???
I was more disappointed by the nutty retired General, er, cough, Blackwater consultant, on just before the fellow you mentioned.
CSPAN has been just shamelessly supporting the MSM Bush spin, I guess, via sweet wittle Stevie's WH scripted "singe but never burn" motto frenzy...
Prezzildent Despondent | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:09 pm | #

Mrs. Frog | 01.27.07 - 4:00 pm | #

Wow! So few people believe me when I write about Europe. I am glad to hear that there is some assimilation taking place. Maybe it is unfair for me to project values of the immigration 'model' of the US onto Europe. While I am planning to move there, I am really afraid of the nationalism. If we look at the last 100 years, Europe has been fertile soil for several dictators, even as late as 1989 in Romania. We have only had one but he only has 2 years left in office. :)

So I may have been reactive to the person who wrote from France. But the way the question was framed made me think that there was a little underlying bigotry.

I have been defending Jews, drag queens, gays of color and the antiwar rally on this thread. Who would have guessed? But I am not defending Israel. I will advocate for its right to exist as long as there is a country called Palestine, but that's about it.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 4:09 pm | #

Did some strung out hippy ever spit on somebody? Probably.

My thoughts exactly. They probably spit on the "pigs" and narcs, too, when they were being arrested.
Mrs. Peel | 01.27.07 - 4:09 pm | #

Nobody who knew anybody who actually served in Vietnam would treat returning vets with anything but respect. Did some strung out hippy ever spit on somebody? Probably. Is that newsworthy in 2007? Nope.

No, it's not something I would consider newsworthy at all. I do think it's part-n-parcel of the right wing media bullshit. I might have been in the military but that didn't mean I necessarily respected those within or those who had served. It's still that way. I seriously doubt that any 'strung out hippy'(sic) or anyone else did because as Mrs. Peel pointed out - THAT would've been newsworthy at the time.

My politics were more radicalized then as well.
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:10 pm | #

No respect for hippies........
MargaretPOA | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:11 pm | #

Even the lovely Joni Mitchell used that derogatory term for police officers:

"I'd even kiss a Sunset pig!"
Ed Sikov | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:11 pm | #

Shit, I would've spit on a pig or a narc before spitting on some vet back then.
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:12 pm | #

Gary SF:
I don't understand how you can defend laying rexplosives in the World Trade Center and killing 3000 American citizens inless you nbate America. It has nothing to do with being Jewish. How do you explain the five dancing Israelis who confessed they were photographing the burning towers in order to document the event? They had to have known about the event BEFORE in order to set up cameras. There were explosives inside the truck. They belonged to a phony moving company which was the exact same company to be seen in the World Trade Center in the weeks before the attacks when there were power cuts.They were found to be Mossad agents.
Please explain this to me. Everything else you say is immaterial and deflective.Until proved otherwise the Mossad of the Israeli Government laid down the explosives which killed 3000 people. End of story.
Thermate tests by Prof Steven Jones of Brigham Young University PROVED explosives in the private samples of steel from the WTC. Please prove that is a false test.
Israel is to blame. Not the "Jews" per se.
End of story.
*
mystic | 01.27.07 - 4:13 pm | #

link for foive dancing israelis:
http://killtown.blogspot.com/200...lis-on- 911.html

*
mystic | 01.27.07 - 4:14 pm | #

John:

The Stonewall drag queens were hardly appealing to "the majority of Americans" in 1969; yet, as you say, we owe them everything. How does that square with your view of how things should get done today?

Most Americans approved of the job Bushie was doing into 2004 according to most polls. Does that invalidate 2003 peace rallies?

The logic of your post eludes me. If only the details did, as well.

I would have agreed with most of them when I came out. I have since had half a lifetime of living and learning it means to be a gay man. At 43, I worry far more about offending drag queens and women who show their boobies at rallies, than offending whomever is offended by them.
freddyinp'town | 01.27.07 - 4:14 pm | #

But I am not defending Israel. I will advocate for its right to exist as long as there is a country called Palestine, but that's about it. [Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 4:09 pm]

I was reading something on AIPAC's site about Israel's inherent right to exist and all I could think what about those Palestinians 'inherent right to exist' or anyone else's right to exist. Religion, culture or ethnic orientation doesn't figure into it. It's about the constant bullying.
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:16 pm | #

Wow! Not only have the right wingnuts screwed up on their memories of the street events of the Viet Nam War - but some of us lefties are as well. I was in San Francisco working in the New Montgomery area during the late 60's and 1970 so I witnessed some of the events by anti-war demonstrators first hand. Then I returned to the service in the Northwest and experienced it from another angle. For you disbelievers regarding the "baby killers" comments (Which really seems to be a tender spot with many of you) Try the PBS seies "Days of Protest.". The San Francisco Chronicle history file is another good source. I don't expect you to beleve me or any other veteran.
Honest George | 01.27.07 - 4:16 pm | #

Did some strung out hippy ever spit on somebody?

This guy?
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/guide...ook/ gw_bush.jpg
Prezzildent Despondent | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:17 pm | #

[Prezzildent Despondent ~ 01.27.07 - 4:17 pm]

Batman?
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:18 pm | #

That guy looks like he was so strung out on coke that he couldn't form a decent hocker.
Ed Sikov | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:18 pm | #

I don't expect you to beleve me or any other veteran.

Memories have a known liberal bias...
Prezzildent Despondent | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:18 pm | #

My thoughts exactly. They probably spit on the "pigs" and narcs, too, when they were being arrested.
Mrs. Peel | 01.27.07 - 4:09 pm | #

I was just about to write that we called everyone names in those days. All police were referred to as pigs, regardless of what they were doing. Police = alway bad. I certainly believed that at the time.

It is a process to evolve, to understand. I believed that the dog catcher was a 'bad person' for my entire life, until I got Animal Planet.

There are several dynamics at play here: The over simplification of complex issues - all police are pigs, the returning vets from Vietname were part of the problem, and the dynamics of what happens when people are in groups or 'mobs.'

At a few of the early anti-war rallies I attended, some soldiers got into fights with some protesters - hippies or not. The fights were provided by the protesters. To think that there were not some immature responses by us on the left is to whitewash history.

Maybe the poor treatment of returning soldiers was not widespread. I am not aware that it was ever reported as being widespread. But it did happen.
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 4:19 pm | #

That guy looks like he was so strung out on coke that he couldn't form a decent hocker.

Jezzus, Ed....please!
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:19 pm | #

Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 4:19 pm | # is me.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 4:20 pm | #

okay, "glob of phlegm." happy now?
Ed Sikov | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:21 pm | #

Batman?

More like a slangy male version of "Cat"woman:
http://z.about.com/d/ politicalhu...cheerleader.jpg
Prezzildent Despondent | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:21 pm | #

[Ed Sikov ~ 01.27.07 - 4:21 pm]

Ahhh....there ya go.
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:22 pm | #

Gary SF:
I don't understand how you can defend laying rexplosives in the World Trade Center and killing 3000...

Uh...Mystic - when did I defend that?
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 4:22 pm | #

GWB is 2nd row center (arms crossed).
Chain gang or rugby team?
http://www.yale.edu/rugby/bush.jpg
Prezzildent Despondent | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:25 pm | #

[There needs to be a two country solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict period. Get used to it.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 2:00 pm | #]

I agree:
BUT--- there are RUMORS now that after Iraq has been decimated and the U.S. still "owns" Iraq, the Palestinians will eventually be TRANSPORTED out of Palestine and dumped in Iraq.
Two states; Israel owning Palestine AND Israel, and the Palestinians in Iraq.

Hope I'm wrong.
mystic | 01.27.07 - 4:25 pm | #

[Uh...Mystic - when did I defend that?
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 4:22 pm | # ]

My misunderstanding, Sorry. I'm SO pissed at Israel, that any defense to me equates defending what happened at 9/11.
mystic | 01.27.07 - 4:29 pm | #

Rugby ball = prop.
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:29 pm | #

Debunking a spitting image

STORIES ABOUT spat-upon Vietnam veterans are like mercury: Smash one and six more appear. It's hard to say where they come from. For a book I wrote in 1998 I looked back to the time when the spit was supposedly flying, the late 1960s and early 1970s. I found nothing. No news reports or even claims that someone was being spat on.
http://www.boston.com/news/globe...spitting_image/

Spit Take
The return of the spat-upon Vietnam vet myth.

there is no evidence that anybody ever gobbed on a soldier returning from Vietnam.
http://www.slate.com/id/2091111/
Cheney IS a LIAR | 01.27.07 - 4:29 pm | #

mystic | 01.27.07 - 4:25 pm | #

Stop listening to rumors - the will consume your brain.

I would also stop worrying about Israel and Palestine - for now. We should be working to stop Bush for doing any further damage, regardless of his motivations (Israel, oil, new world order, etc.).
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 4:29 pm | #

Drooling on the Vietnam Vets

Jerry Lembcke argues that the story is bunk in his 1998 book The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam (click to buy it). Lembcke, a professor of sociology at Holy Cross and a Vietnam vet, investigated hundreds of news accounts of antiwar activists spitting on vets. But every time he pushed for more evidence or corroboration from a witness, the story collapsed--the actual person who was spat on turned out to be a friend of a friend. Or somebody's uncle. He writes that he never met anybody who convinced him that any such clash took place.

http://www.slate.com/id/1005224/
Cheney IS a LIAR | 01.27.07 - 4:31 pm | #

Exactly right on, John.
JoshA | 01.27.07 - 4:33 pm | #

-----all we are s**** give peace a chance.
sam nelson | 01.27.07 - 4:33 pm | #

there is no evidence that anybody ever gobbed on a soldier returning from Vietnam.
http://www.slate.com/id/2091111/
Cheney IS a LIAR | 01.27.07 - 4:29 pm | #

and what I wrote earlier:

I remember clearly, in the early days, protesters with mis-directed anger verbally attacking returning GIs. I remember lots of fights breaking out.

I did not say spit. I said verbally attacking. If calling someone who has returned from a horrendous war names is not as bad, so be it. But it did happen.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 4:34 pm | #

John,
I love your blog and your writing, but you are such a wanker about some topics.

And I'm watching it on C-Span right now, and I'm asking myself - though I'm not surprised - why is some woman from the "US Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation" speaking?

Option 1) The group she's speaking for did the heavy lifting organizing the march, so they sent her to the largest possible megaphone.

Option 2) Someone at CNN knew how the talk would go and wanted to undecut the message of large scale protests today.

Don't make it more complex than it needs to be. And don't delude yourself that there's some sort of centralized movement on most progressive issues. There simply isn't, and there's not going to be. And even if there were, there'd still be a sizable enough splinter group with an "extreme" opinion that would suck the air out of the discussion.
usagibrian | 01.27.07 - 4:35 pm | #

To think that there were not some immature responses by us on the left is to whitewash history.

I'm not naive enough to believe that something along those lines NEVER happened. I'm saying that it's your typical combo of one part truth and 9 parts right wing fantasy about "those people" that's been overplayed to absurdity by the fascist wanna-be's and Ann Coulter's of that time to the point that it's an unchallenged fact.
Mrs. Peel | 01.27.07 - 4:35 pm | #

Mrs. Frog | 01.27.07 - 4:00 pm

You nailed it. All nationalism does, much like religion, is give people a sense of separateness, which makes it so much easier to rationalize war and ill treatment in general. When more people finally realize that we really ARE the same, the better off this orb will be.
blue | 01.27.07 - 4:36 pm | #

They put Hanoi Jane Fonda out front and center for christ sake... talk about shooting yourself in the foot. Why is it that we need to parade around people that hurt the cause more than help it. Why is it that anytime you go tosuch a protest, you end up listening to people who are as out of touch with reality as those on the far right that preach hatred at klan rallies? For christ sake, can't we protest this FRIGGIN MESS without having to get into bed with a bunch of angry commies???
PTC | 01.27.07 - 4:36 pm | #

John:

I disagreed with you on the Lebanon "incursion," but agree with you wholeheartedly on this.
Bush Bites | 01.27.07 - 4:36 pm | #

Gary, we ARE on the same side.But I still feel that the key out of this madness IS the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, just like it was the motives that prompted the terrorists to plan hitting the towers in the first place.In reality, we will NOT solve that conflict..Condi is useless-- and I agree it's more important to concentrate on Iraq and more specifically Iran.But how can we prove a false flag when it occurs? We will be f*ed.
One thing I must meet you half way: It is the LIKUD government that is so evil. You will remember that BARAK did offer an amazing solution to the conflict and Arrafat refused. I blame LIKUD. Sharon and now Netanyahu the troublemaker and instigator is Likud.
mystic | 01.27.07 - 4:37 pm | #

PTC | 01.27.07 - 4:36 pm | #

-----

Why is Jane Fonda there? What the hell has she done about Iraq.

Obviously, her appearance has nothing to do with Iraq, and everything to do with Jane.
Bush Bites | 01.27.07 - 4:38 pm | #

Some Vietnam vets were treated badly upon their return. Some of this came from the left. I saw it. I was there. I was on the left. I remember feeling sick about it. I was young as were most of us. If were to happen today, I would speak out. But back then, I was too afraid to.

It is possible that what I witnessed was the only time that vets were ever treated poorly. I don't know. But, it did happen.

Get over it. We all learn.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 4:38 pm | #

Love the Warrior, Hate the War

Why progressives have more in common with the military than they think
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site...n/article/2980/
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 4:39 pm | #

Cheney is a liar- Spat on soldiers.... for christ sake man, there are pictures of Hanoi Jane sitting behind a Vietnamise anti aircraft gun! Next thing you know she'll be over in Iraq posing with a bunch of scumbags building roadside bombs. Stop the insanity, and shut these anti military scum bags out. John is right, people like Fonda on the front page of this thing, do nothing but hurt us.
PTC | 01.27.07 - 4:39 pm | #

I'm not naive enough to believe that something along those lines NEVER happened. I'm saying that it's your typical combo of one part truth and 9 parts right wing fantasy about "those people" that's been overplayed to absurdity by the fascist wanna-be's and Ann Coulter's of that time to the point that it's an unchallenged fact.
Mrs. Peel | 01.27.07 - 4:35 pm | #

Okay, we do agree! Thanks for clearing it up.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 4:40 pm | #

Well, I was involved in anti-war activities during Vietnam. And I saw Jane Fonda in Philly in 72. She never said one word about "baby killers" or anything else on this thread attributed to her, although she did have a few choice words about the Nixon administration. She was not as radical as many of us in the crowd. And she had as much right to speak today as anyone else.

There are always going to be a range of people from anarchists to mainstream groups in these protests. And it's true that they are generally well-planned (although I didn't expect to get arrested once for passive resistance to leaving Lafayette Park). I'm sure they had a list of speakers, performers, etc.

This is the LEFT, for chrissakes, and Democratic Party types don't have a lock on the label. I'm sure there were a wide variety of leftists at the demo; we either accept each other or we shut them up. And since I believe in free speech, well--unless someone is advocating violence at a peace demonstration.

That doesn't mean I appreciated the religious types, either, but that's me, and I still would let them speak.

A peace demonstration is not a Senate hearing, after all.
...
Mad as Hell | 01.27.07 - 4:40 pm | #

4:05 p.m.:TKS Wordsmith. I've been to CSPAN.org. All I'm seeing is events that took place last week. I've been to the listings for(online) CSPAN, CSPAN2, and CSPAN3. The closest I got was 1 or 2 minute clips from CNN online. I guess I'll find it on you tube etc. next week. Even indymedia sites show no links for the protest. This is the first time this has happened. Right now on CSPAN in my area there is a conservative conference featuring Michelle Malkin, J-Lo etc. I guess patience is a virtue. I'll wait. Maybe CSPAN will cover the rally tomorrow. Again thanks.
P.S. if anyone has a link to CSPAN in their area it would be appreciated.
Candymarl | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:42 pm | #

Mad as Hell | 01.27.07 - 4:40 pm | #

Agreed.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 4:43 pm | #

Hanoi Jane Fonda...For christ sake, can't we protest this FRIGGIN MESS without having to get into bed with a bunch of angry commies??? [PTC | 01.27.07 - 4:36 pm]

A bunch of angry commies???

I don't think Jane Fonda should be out there because she's an actress; the same reason I don't want to see Tim Robbins or Susan Sarandon. I respect the latter two for their political thought, most especially Sarandon. But this is not about THEM. It is about the people of this country & Congress speaking to the President & this administration. And the people of this country aren't with the Fondas, Sarandon or Robbins economically. Ehren Watada's parents and other veterans should have that platform longer than the time alloted to Fonda or Robbins. I'm not even sure Jesse Jackson was warranted, but I'm losing respect for that man.
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:43 pm | #

A bunch of angry commies???

LOL...omg, like a flash back. Is everyone you don't like a "commie"
Joe Bag O Donuts | 01.27.07 - 4:45 pm | #

The GI movement against the war in Vietnam.

In the 1960’s an anti-war movement emerged that altered the course of history. This movement didn’t take place on college campuses, but in barracks and on aircraft carriers. It flourished in army stockades, navy brigs and in the dingy towns that surround military bases. It penetrated elite military colleges like West Point. And it spread throughout the battlefields of Vietnam. It was a movement no one expected, least of all those in it. Hundreds went to prison and thousands into exile. And by 1971 it had, in the words of one colonel, infested the entire armed services. Yet today few people know about the GI movement against the war in Vietnam.
http://www.sirnosir.com/

watch the trailer
SIR! NO SIR! | 01.27.07 - 4:45 pm | #

http://www.1stcavmedic.com/jane_.../ jane_fonda.htm

THIS THE FACE WE WANT ON THE FRONT PAGE OF EVERY PAPER IN THE MORNING? THEY JUST HAD HER ON CNN.

Fonda hurts this cause!
PTC | 01.27.07 - 4:46 pm | #

mad as hell- And the propaganda pictures Fonda took??? With our enemy, wearing their uniforms and sitting behind the very guns that shot down our pilots, landing them in the Hanoi Hilton? Dude, Fonda is a SCUMBAG.
PTC | 01.27.07 - 4:43 pm | #

Fonda made mistakes. But she spent more time in Vietnam than Bush or Cheney. Their honorable duty was to avoid going there. Bush was all coked up at the time. Cheney was making his pact with the devil.

Why 'forgive/forget' with Bush and Cheney and not Fonda, who has actually publicly apologized?
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 4:48 pm | #

Sir No Sir! Trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r...h? v=rDk6Qal2DCI
SIR! NO SIR! | 01.27.07 - 4:48 pm | #

Sir, yes, I met returning vets in 1971 who protested with us in Charlotte, NC. They were not allowed in the Charlotte Coliseum (where Nixon and Billy Graham were having a lovefest), even those in wheelchairs.

They were not allowed in a public arena even though they had fought in Vietnam...

Think about it, people.
...
Mad as Hell | 01.27.07 - 4:48 pm | #

[ PTC | 01.27.07 - 4:46 pm]

THAT has nothing to do with now. She's apologized and apologized for that. Move on.

Fonda and the other celebrities there do not speak or are representative of the American people.
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:48 pm | #

Gary, thank you, and you are absolutely correct.

She never sent troops into harm's way, either, like Bush, the absentee National Guardsman and Cheney, the 5 time draft dodger.
...
Mad as Hell | 01.27.07 - 4:50 pm | #

They were not allowed in a public arena even though they had fought in Vietnam...

Why?
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:51 pm | #

This is one of those who should be focused upon.
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:51 pm | #

Jane Fonda: Wish I Hadn't

She earned the epithet “Hanoi Jane” and the eternal hatred of many veterans when she visited an anti-aircraft gun site used to shoot down American pilots.

It's something that Fonda now says she regrets. "I will go to my grave regretting that. The image of Jane Fonda, Barbarella, Henry Fonda's daughter, just a woman sitting on a enemy aircraft gun, was a betrayal," says Fonda.

"It was like I was thumbing my nose at the military. And at the country that gave me privilege. It was the largest lapse of judgment that I can even imagine. I don't thumb my nose at this country. I care deeply about American soldiers."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/ 2...295_page2.shtml
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 4:52 pm | #

Word, they weren't told why; neither was I when my sign was ripped from my hands by the Secret Service, either.
...
Mad as Hell | 01.27.07 - 4:52 pm | #

Worsmith- It has everything to do with now!! EVERYTHING! Why are we letting her be out front on this?? This is supposed to be about Iraq, not Vietnam. Fonda makes this about Vietnam, and plays right into the "protestors hurt the troops" label we have worked so hard to lose.

No, it doesn't. She's not a leader in this movement; she not "out front on this." She was a speaker at the congregation before the march.

If anyone makes this about Fonda, it will be the media, with its rightwind leanings and whoring to paychecks from corporate owners.

You sound like one of those old, white jackasses from the VFW.
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:57 pm | #

those of us that believe Israel is wrong on the Palestinian issue don't all hate Israel and we are not anti-semitic. I am a Jew amd I think Israel is wrong. But nice Fox-like rhetoric, John.
Adrian | 01.27.07 - 4:57 pm | #

Shoulda been rightwing above; musta been thinking of rightwing windbags.

My butt is getting numb. How can people say on & sit for hours?
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:59 pm | #

Wordsmith- I am a Veteran... big deal. My point remains, letting Fonda be out front on this protest was a huge error... huge.
PTC | 01.27.07 - 4:59 pm | #

http://www.1stcavmedic.com/jane_.../ jane_fonda.htm
PTC | 01.27.07 - 5:00 pm | #

My butt is getting numb. How can people say on & sit for hours?
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 4:59 pm | #

I've got a cold.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 5:01 pm | #

[Candymarl ~ 01.27.07 - 4:42 pm]

It'll roll around again, probably this evening on CSPAN-1. Book TV is on CSPAN-2 all weekend.

In fact tomorrow, Chris Hedges will be on around Noon on his new book: 'American Fascists' about neoChristian types.
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 5:01 pm | #

[PTC | 01.27.07 - 4:59 pm]

So am I.
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 5:02 pm | #

Sir No Sir! Trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r...h? v=rDk6Qal2DCI
SIR! NO SIR! | 01.27.07 - 4:48 pm | #

Did they hurl insults and spit on themselves?
Anonymous | 01.27.07 - 5:02 pm | #

Wordsmith, if I wasn't sick, I'd invite you over so we can take care of that numb butt...
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 5:03 pm | #

My point remains, letting Fonda be out front on this protest was a huge error... huge. [PTC | 01.27.07 - 4:59 pm]

As far as being a speaker, I agree. That was a mistake; I don't like it. Our reasons for why are different.
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 5:04 pm | #

[Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 5:03 pm]

LOL...

Hang on; let me ask Hub. Sometimes he doesn't mind .....

.....oopss...
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 5:05 pm | #

PTC, if you aren't old enough to have been around during Vietnam, you have no idea what the Johnson and Nixon governments did.

The country was fractured, as it is now, although there was no NeoCon menace nor control of the media by the rightwing as there is now. Vietnam was a meat grinder, there was a draft, and many men had no choice but to go to a place they knew might be their last, fighting a war they knew--in the last few years--was a mistake.

I was there. And I know, first hand, not from reading from someone else's perspective.
Mad as Hell | 01.27.07 - 5:06 pm | #

The country was fractured, as it is now, although there was no NeoCon menace nor control of the media by the rightwing as there is now. Vietnam was a meat grinder, there was a draft, and many men had no choice but to go to a place they knew might be their last, fighting a war they knew--in the last few years--was a mistake.

I was there. And I know, first hand, not from reading from someone else's perspective.
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 5:09 pm | #

Iraq Veterans Against the War
http://www.ivaw.org/
IVAW | 01.27.07 - 5:09 pm | #

The country was fractured, as it is now, although there was no NeoCon menace nor control of the media by the rightwing as there is now. Vietnam was a meat grinder, there was a draft, and many men had no choice but to go to a place they knew might be their last, fighting a war they knew--in the last few years--was a mistake.

I was there. And I know, first hand, not from reading from someone else's perspective.
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 5:10 pm | #

[Mad as Hell | 01.27.07 - 5:06 pm]

Yeah, BABY!

I was in the Students for Democratic Society!

Not only that - but it was televised for chrissakes! You watched in on TV in the living room. Most everyone I served with had been drafted. It WAS EVERYWHERE!
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 5:10 pm | #

Sorry about that. Haloscan wouldn't do my comment.
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 5:11 pm | #

John-

You make a GREAT point - we need to Be more disciplined on what message we need to send to the general public to convince them that we are as much a part of America as they are.
Rick Banales | 01.27.07 - 5:14 pm | #

Jane Fonda is a good person, so stop bashing her for being naive when she visited North Vietnam during that war.
Jay Randal | 01.27.07 - 5:21 pm | #

Israel is a nuclear power, subsidized to the tune of $2500 per capita / year by US taxpayers. I will speak the truth about their depradations as I see fit as long as I pay their freight.
falling standards | 01.27.07 - 5:28 pm | #

I'm waiting for John's take. PTC is right - Fonda was a poor choice. But with or without Fonda, nobody that watches Fox news was going to change their minds about this war based upon this rally.
Gary SF | 01.27.07 - 5:31 pm | #

I could not agree with you more. I am reminded of my friends who went to the big anti-war rally back in 2003 and felt like hostages on the ANSWER bus, as they were lectured to about every cause under the sun all the way there and all the way back.
Timmy Mac | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 5:33 pm | #

[I will never understand why Israel is the bad guy in this conflict. Have the United States ever had to conceed land after winning it in conflict? No.
Erik Weinberger | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 1:56 pm | # ]

Erik, I have always felt the same about land that was won in conflict, so you bring up a good point. I personally feel, however, that that is not the point of contention, but that Palestine was UNFAIRLY handed over by Britain to the Jews in 1948 because of sympathy for their victimisation in the Holocaust. Many people today feel that Israel therefore occupies Palestine unfairly, because the Palestinians were driven from THEIR land because of a decision by an outside party. Ahmedinejad of Iran feels that becaue of the Holocaust link to the creation of Israel, why weren't the Jews handed part of the land that CAUSED the Holocaust, namely part of Germany, and not Palestine which had nothing to do with the Holocaust.He has a point and I agree with him.
mystic | 01.27.07 - 5:44 pm | #

Israel has nothing to do with it. The various Muslim populations mostly don't like each other, and dislike the Palestinians nearly as much as they do the Israelis.

More to the point, not a single combatant in Iraq would stop fighting if a state of Palestine were fully established tomorrow and every Israeli were to disappear in a puff of smoke. If that were to have any effect at all, it would be to redouble the ferocity of their fight.
Flash | 01.27.07 - 5:46 pm | #

John- I'm confused. Is it a full moon out tonite? You unleashed a number of folks from roles in a Rod Sterling script.
You started with some unassailable points: We are in a campaign to end the US occupation of Iraq and prevent an expansion of the war to Iran. To win a campaign, you have to have a focus, a strategy, and in a democracy- a message to build and enlarge your majority. To deviate from that, is to hinder and slow your progress to achieve your end. This has nothing to do with censorship of signs in the crowd, etc. anybody should be allowed to attend with their own signs- though it helps if you have preprinted signs to hand out as unions do- at the immigration rallies for example. BUT YOU DO CONTROL THE STAGE and you try to keep all your speakers "ON MESSAGE". They put it in their own perspective, of course. To not do this, is at best, squandering opportunity or at worst setting our selves back. I sure the Vice President and White House pollsters were very pleased to have Hollywood Jane on the stage- they would have proposed it themselves. Why- because it slows down our ability to enlarge our majority against the Republicans and Conservatives.

And in other news, I vote to allow the drag queens in the parades. They lull the haters into a false sense of security that we're not a serious threat....
Skipster | 01.27.07 - 5:49 pm | #

Good post John!

I too am SICK of the 'blame Israel for everything' crowd.

It's a very complicated situation with Israel and it's neighbors.

I swear, the criticism is so obtuse, I am sorry, but I can only conclude, some of it must stem from hating what Jews stand for.
johnnyr | 01.27.07 - 5:52 pm | #

Thanks for speaking for us Jews, but as a Jew I see nothing wrong with what you say she was saying. If you think that Isreal built that wall on their own, where did the revenue come from? Oil? No.

Good luck trying to stop the war without recognizing that Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people is a rallying cry for extremists around the world.

You are suggesting that one stop the bleeding without healing the wound, but thanks for speaking for us Jews.

Speaking for Myself,
Jew Against Dehumanization of Anyone
Clemen | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 5:54 pm | #

[Speaking for Myself,
Jew Against Dehumanization of Anyone
Clemen | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 5:54 pm | # ]

I wish to second that. I refuse to be intimidated by people who have no answer other to claim I am an anti-Semite. I am a Jew and am violently anti-Zionist. Got it? Read my posts especially at 4.13 and 4.14 p.m. to understand why I am anti Israel. If you explain my concerns please give proof about thermate tests, not opinions, otherwise your argument is weak and ineffectual.
mystic | 01.27.07 - 6:01 pm | #

johnnyr | 01.27.07 - 5:52 pm | #

So, there you go again. Obviously, Israel is not to blame for "everything". However, if anyone suggests that Israel is to blame for anything at all, then does that automatically means they anti-semetic and hate what people the world over of the Jewish religion stand for (which is?). Is that what you are saying? Are you saying that if, for example, I think the government of Israel went completely overboard in destroying the Lebanese infrastructure and killing innocent people in the process, in response to the kidnapping of two soldiers, then I am anti-semetic and hate all people of the Jewish religion the world over?? Bullshit. You need to separate religion from nations. The Israeli public suffers greatly when their government acts unreasonably and with impunity. The same goes for any other government.
Mrs. Frog | 01.27.07 - 6:03 pm | #

Of course it is anecdotal, but even though I was too old to be drafted in 1966, many of my friends a few years younger, some family members returned from Vietnam and never ever were any called "baby killers" and spat upon. A fraternity brother, for a year after returning, roomed with me before he got his feet on the ground. He wouldn't even talk about 'Nam unless he would get really drunk and then he would go into crying jags.

I am sure it may have happened to a few (ALL Gary's friends?) and those isolated incidents grew exponentially as the reich-wingers love to spread such lies. There is a book written about the "myth" in case anyone cares to study the aftermath of Vietnam:

http://www.amazon.com/Spitting-I...m/dp/ 0814751474

Most returned from Vietnam, not in battalions getting "ticker-tape" parades, but were flown home by plane loads to military bases, where they silently left the base gates in "civies" to go quietly home.

Grant in Houston | 01.27.07 - 6:05 pm | #

Mrs Frog. Thank you. You express my thoughts better. I agree with everything you say.
mystic | 01.27.07 - 6:07 pm | #

Jane Fonda should be forgiven - But lets not rewrite history in order to do it - She spent two weeks with the North Vietnamese, posed for numerous photos with her laughing and smiling, actively tried to get servicemen to betray their oath of service. Regarding her commnist sensibilities -if she wasn't a communist she sure quacked like one. On November 21, 1970 she told a University of Michigan audience "If you understand what communism was, you would hope, you would pray on your knees that we would some day become communist." Ditto sentiments spoken by her at Duke. Her actions bordered on treason, and to an entire generation her presence brings back all of those memories of that era.

My comment stands - Her presence at the anti-war rally today was a negative in our efforts to end the Iraq War.
Honest George | 01.27.07 - 6:09 pm | #

Christoph Giebelbased, a professor at the U. of Washington in Seattle has written, "on my own experiences in teaching about the wars in Viet Nam to US students, I suspected for years that a classic urban legend (or memory trope) was at work. It has happened in perhaps 75% of my courses and usually around the time when the class has worked through the 1950 and 1960 and arrived in 1972/73 or so.

Possibly the cognitive dissonance with the shallow mythologies about the war constantly recycled in the US public (and ranging from the sentimental patriotic to the racist jingoistic) has become too much by that point. The student comes up to me after class and relates how "a friend of my dad's," a "second cousin," or such returning war veteran was spat upon in the early/mid-1970s. (The relationship is close enough not to be mere hearsay, but removed enough to prevent easy authentication.)

http://www.lib.washington.edu/so...nd% 20saliva.htm

Grant in Houston | 01.27.07 - 6:12 pm | #

Some of the hate fomented on Jane Fonda was based upon falsehoods and still float easily over the Internet where folks like to copy an article from reich-wing WorldNetDaily aka WingNutDaily. Some of the myths are busted here:

http://urbanlegends.about.com/li...ly/ aa110399.htm

Grant in Houston | 01.27.07 - 6:18 pm | #

..I am sure it may have happened to a few (ALL Gary's friends?) and those isolated incidents grew exponentially as the reich-wingers love to spread such lies...
Grant in Houston | 01.27.07 - 6:05 pm | #

Did you even read my posts? Did I ever use the word 'friend'? Did I imply that my friends were spat upon? With these hallucinations, maybe you need to balance your meds...

I said that I witnessed Vietnam vets being verbally attacked a few times at rallies - which ended up in fist fights.

I never said it was widespread. I ONLY countered what was being said here - that it never happened.

Maybe in Texas or wherever you were at the time was different.

Why don't you be a southern gentleman and make your point without distorting what I said, or belittling me.

Sheesh.
Gary SF | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 6:23 pm | #

Some of the hate fomented on Jane Fonda was based upon falsehoods and still float easily over the Internet where folks like to copy an article from reich-wing WorldNetDaily aka WingNutDaily. Some of the myths are busted here:

http://urbanlegends.about.com/li...ly/ aa110399.htm

Grant in Houston | 01.27.07 - 6:18 pm | #

And some of the hate had to do with her and Tom returning to the US and saying that there was no mistreatment of US soldiers, which was not true.

She went with a good heart and tried to do something good. I don't fault her for anything but maybe some youthful poor judgment.

But she was used...and has paid the price. I don't hold any grudge against her and welcome her speaking today. But she did screw up, decades ago.
Gary SF | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 6:27 pm | #

I'm surprised no one else has brought this up. Does anyone remember the ANSWER march in DC back in 2001? It was TEN days after 9/11. The nation was still numb. I tried watching some of the rally on TV, and a collection of the kind of spoiled white kids with rich dads who dress in thrift store clothes and wear hankerchefs on their heads were getting up in front of the microphone claiming it was racist to take action against Osama Bin Laden. What kind of effect would that have had on someone who still had the repeated images of the Towers collapsing fresh in their minds? It probably set back the progressive left back for the next few years.

Look, John is right. There's nothing wrong with staying on message about Iraq in great show of good old-fashioned American pragmatism. MLK wasn't out on the Mall yammering about abortion rights and gay marriage and vegetarianism and fur and that guy who killed Danny Faulkner, Mumia Abu Jamal in his "I Have a Dream Speech".
Jay | 01.27.07 - 6:47 pm | #

Amen, John. Speaking of drag queens, I came to the conclusion that GENDER RIGHTS is the key to victories regarding civil rights for the GLBT community. I became a member of GENDER PAC and held signs for them during marches. If the diversity of GENDER were legally respected, meaning GENDER and SEXUAL IDENTITY is up to each individual person to personally "discover" and their gender should NOT be FORCED ON SOMEONE due to the appearance of their physical genitalia then the whole question of gay rights would be resolved.

http://www.gpac.org/
cowboyNEOK | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 6:57 pm | #

I was being snarky Gary because after reading several say they had no direct knowledge of our returning Vietnam vets being "spat upon" you chimed in with your anecdotal proof that I guess the rest of us are wrong OR OFF OUR MEDS!

Plus I linked to several studies from academia which pretty much debase that urban myth that the reich-wing so loves to keep going.

Grant in Houston | 01.27.07 - 7:01 pm | #

Grant in Houston | 01.27.07 - 7:01 pm | #

Maybe my problem is that I don't pay any attention to what the wingnuts say.

So if my anecdotes seemed 'wingnuttyish' it was not my intention.

But they are true accounts.

What would I have to gain by lying about something like this?
Gary SF | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 7:09 pm | #

It's easy to blame Israel, but shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. The Israelis and Jews are not the problem. It would certainly make the situation easier to solve if they were, and I suppose that's why so many ignorant minds grasp for that answer. Like a previous poster mentioned above, if all of Israel evaporated and all Jews thr world over disappeared, the fighting amongst Muslims in the middle east would only increase, if it had any effect at all. Now ask yourself--How about if it was all Arabs, Persians, and other assorted Middle Eastern Muslims disappeared? How about Muslims the world over? War in the region would grind to a halt, not to mention what it would do to Africa. Not that I'm supporting genocide of course, but its worth considering. Stop blaming the Jews, its so 1939.
PJ | 01.27.07 - 7:36 pm | #

But she was used...and has paid the price. I don't hold any grudge against her and welcome her speaking today. But she did screw up, decades ago.

Absolutely, she was used.

Our troops are being used as well, just as they were then.

Remember the ole' domino theory?
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 7:41 pm | #

I'm Fonda Jane. And I SO mean it...
freddyinp'town | 01.27.07 - 7:43 pm | #

Stop blaming the Jews, its so 1939. [PJ | 01.27.07 - 7:36 pm]

What a shit comment.

Blaming the Jews? Blame the Israeli government and those here (within the U.S.) who wholeheartedly support it regardless their motivation or the results. They're are NOT innocents.

Your argument doesn't hold. The gap which would be missing regardless of who 'disappears' would be filled with another scapegoat(s). This isn't utopia.
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 7:45 pm | #

You know who I hold responsible for the killing of Mohammed's family and the Shia Sunni rift? Israel! Its all Israel's fault, all Israel's fault, if Israel would just learn to put up with rocket fire on its towns everything would be fine! You're so right Wordsmith! All you did was say that its Israel's fault...nice way to utter a completely hollow, ignorant, wrongheaded statement. You know what, the Muslims proved you right when Israel pulled out of Lebanon. They didn't just build up weapons for 6 years or anything before starting a rocket war on civilian towns, of course not! Israel pulled out, so they were happy, and they went back to being the war-free peaceful people they would be without Israel. Read a book not written by Chomsky for a change. Moron.
PJ | 01.27.07 - 7:54 pm | #

Stop Blaming the Jews. It's so 1938,WTF?

1938 really?, what about the years the years that followed, should we just get over it and blindly follow Israel into the long dark road full of death and occupation?

I don't blame the Jews I blame the Israeli government
Coming Undone | 01.27.07 - 7:56 pm | #

Read a book not written by Chomsky for a change. Moron

Ya fucking illiterate shithead.
Wordsmith | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 7:58 pm | #

It is very wrong to lump Israel and Iraq together. Its hurts the anti Iraq cause for people to get up and connect it to the Israli / Arab conflict. It hurts all causes.

Now this idiot who spoke gives fodder to people who think that all people who are Anti the Iraq war, are Anti Israel anti jew haters.

As a jew who supports hopeful peace between Isralis and Palestinians
and who happens to be a democrat against Bush and this inane war this kind of thing really pisses me off.
American Jew | 01.27.07 - 7:58 pm | #

"First off, wrong topic."
I understand what you mean, the San Deigo rally had similar problems but it is not the case here that it is the "wrong topic." They are very much connected.

Second off, way to alienate most Jews in America, a rather influential group of people we could use as allies.

That comment is just silly. Right-wing neocon fanatics are a much larger group and pretty influential, do we worry about speaking the truth and alientating them?
Is this why we never saw a mention of Carter's book on your Blog?

Third off, way to alienate the rest of us who don't hate Israel, don't hate the Palestinians, and don't feel that the problem over there will be solved by simply blaming everyting on Israel - there's more than enough blame to go around. And in any case, this rally has nothing to do with Israel leaving Palestine, so STFU and stay on topic.

You are just wrong here John. It is none of those absolutes. I submit that if Israel had accepted the unanimous UN resolution 242 back 30 years ago, we would have avoided the mess we find ourselves in today not to mention the considerable human suffering.

We in the U.S. have kept quiet about this too long. Even the sleepy ISG understood how central this problem is to terrorism in the Middle East. If we were an honest broker, we would have much more leverage.
SoCal | 01.27.07 - 8:05 pm | #

way to alienate most Jews in America, a rather influential group of people we could use as allies.

I disagree. I'm Jewish and American, and I agree that the establishment of Israel on land belonging to the Palestinians is one of the greatest crimes of the 20th century, one which deserves to be rectified.

Personally, I'd be happy to see Israel destroyed root and branch, Palestine be given back to the Palestinians it was stolen from, and the Israelis be evacuated to the US if they don't want to stay and live under a non-racist government.
moron | 01.27.07 - 8:13 pm | #

as the saying goes oppinions are like assholes , every bodys got one, guess the anti fondas got twooooooo!
tyree | 01.27.07 - 8:18 pm | #

THANK YOU! If I see one more sea turtle at a protest march, I'll scream!
Tibbyli | 01.27.07 - 8:19 pm | #

Free speech always hurts

Ask Dick Cheney
John Wehler | 01.27.07 - 8:24 pm | #

"I disagree. I'm Jewish and American, and I agree that the establishment of Israel on land belonging to the Palestinians is one of the greatest crimes of the 20th century, one which deserves to be rectified."

What are you talkiing about?
What part of Israel is established on which land that belongs to palestinians and when did it belong to them?

I suggest you go study your own jewish history as well as the history of the arab world. Then tell us please when the nonexistent nation of palestine owen which land that israel has?
American Jew | 01.27.07 - 8:39 pm | #

Wow. All these comments have little to do with the blood that is actually being shed in Iraq. Blood. You know, the stuff beneath your skin? You have it don't you? Or are you all so self satisfied to be petty enough to comment on Jane Fonda and drag queens to pretend otherwise. Fucking goddam hypocrites.
Domo | 01.27.07 - 8:52 pm | #

Yes, John, that's exactly my worry, and it's the connection I was making to your post: I think the primary concern at a protest should be "how effective is the protest?" So my concern going into one is "how can I add to its effectiveness?"

If somebody goes to a protest and diminishes its effectiveness by clouding the issue or going to extremes, they're hurting the protest...which is why I wonder how to dress at these events.

At an anti-war rally, obviously, I would not go as a feathery showgirl. That would be flippant and irrelevant. But at a protest regarding diversity it starts becoming a more difficult issue to resolve: if I go showy, I add to the "event-ness" and the "out-ness," but at the same time I risk alienating people like BiGuy, or women with political concerns regarding queens, or Joe & Jane Suburbia who are waffling about the issue at hand.

Regarding Stonewall, maybe queens and non-caucasian gays were more active because they were already visibly marginalized, even in their own subculture? Harder for them to fade into the background and "pass" during the endless raids, and probably more likely to be stigmatized during them. Maybe it IS a myth, but as somebody said in the comments the myth was productive and useful.

Jeez, if I'd have known there'd be a good discussion about this I would have checked back sooner!
Muffy St. Bernard | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 9:26 pm | #

I'm sorry, but as many of you know, I tend to have issues with "peace rallies," not because I have issues with peace or rallies, but because I find myself cringing when I see the substance of them, who's attending, the issues they feel compelled to bring up (Mumia, Israel, trans fats, the suffering of amoeba, whatever).

I also cringe at seeing the extremist protesters at these rallies who seem to be only out to violate everyone elses' taboos. Yet, you have to remember that these are protests and that the rich, fat cat, corporate and politicial establishment looks on all protesters as nothing more than the hated and despised enemy who they would rather mow down than tolerate. Look at how vicious and brutal the police are to protesters. Cops are chosen for that mentality. They search the nation and recruit from the darkest corners of this country to find the Neaderthals, the cavemen, the most brutal, hateful, bigoted to hire for cops. Cops are the occupying army for the establishment elite and powerful. They are following orders.

The extreme protesters are reacting the most strongly to that hatred of the establishment, elite, rich and powerful for them and are expressing their defiance. Look at how damned Bush tried to make us out to be the traitors and enemies, who want to destroy America. It is only with the realization that Bush is the real traitor who hates America and that this is our country, not his, that I have begun to feel like waving the flag again. The flag belongs to us, much as America is ours, not his. We are Americans, he is the enemy, the traitor to the Constitution, flag, nation and the people. With that realization, I can see why protesters go to such extremes to violate the conventions and "norms" of the establishment.

I watched the protests during the Vietnam War era and was revolted by the behavior of my fellow students, sex in the empty classrooms and in the stairwells, drugs and pot everywhere, frequent riots, and take over the buildings on campus, threats of bombs disrupting classes, vandalism, etc. With the perspective of years, I look back and understand what I was unable to separate then, they are protesters, anti-war, but they were unable to separate our being anti-war from being anti-establishment, anti-everything also. 35 years later, I have the wisdom of hindsight, but I think also our protests benefit from that perspective and the protests now don't include clouds of marijuana smoke, violence and crime that often characterized the protests 35 years ago.

You know the violence and vandalism at the Seattle WT meeting was all committed by police agent provacateurs.
Vicki | 01.27.07 - 9:31 pm | #

Gary,
Drag queens and gays of color were Stonewall. The 'normal' looking white gays could have never participated for fear of being 'exposed.'

It is the same fear that I see repeated here.

Too bad Pelosi wasn't black and a drag queen. {g}
Vicki | 01.27.07 - 9:44 pm | #

I really, really like this post. It accurately articulates my impressions from my first big march in DC in 05 and I got roundly criticized on Kos for sharing them.

United for Peace and Justice gets a lot of credit for organizing these massive events but their program is too freaking old school. Iraq is not Viet Nam and it strikes me as counter productive to use icons from the 60s and 70s as keynote speakers in lieu of new faces with a modern agenda. I rather liked hanging out with anarchists and socialists and representatives from Hugo Chavez and the PLO, but it detracted from the message to have speakers from every single-issue organization use the forum for their particular bitches. Also, I'm not Jewish... and do not approve of Israeli politics. Nonetheless, even I was offended by the PLO friendly speakers in 05 and so were some Jews I overheard at breakfast the next morning. The Israeli/ Palestine mess is related to Iraq in the greater mideast imbroglio, but at a rally to get our troops home, it's an unnecessary diversion and had an element of anti-semitism.

Nonetheless, it was an energizing experience in 05 and I wish I could have been there today. There is something powerful about these events for the people who attend them.
carol | 01.27.07 - 9:51 pm | #

What fucking audacity John.

Quit trying to frame the anti-Iraq war movement as something you should be able to define and mold.

Israel is a major concern because we are responsible for them because we fund and arm them.

It is the actions of those we support and fund that should be scrutinized by the people and Israel is a big part of this anti-war movement as they have done absolutely nothing to mitigate the death of our U.S. troops, but rather have taken actions that drive the wedge even deeper and making it more difficult in ending this Middle East conflict that Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Lebanon, and Israel are all a part of!

Be a true blogger and express your views instead of trying to frame yourself as the only legitimate view.
Gov't Delcared Anti-Citizen #1 | 01.27.07 - 10:38 pm | #

I think they should end Israel apartheid too. Nobody likes to be shoved into a corner and Israel is doing that to Palestine.

It'll be a sad day when they censor speakers at a peace rally. If you want one-topic peace rallies, then have someone control who is allowed to talk.
Scott Alexander | 01.28.07 - 1:14 am | #

Anyone sick of Israeli being equated a reflexive, and in my opinion, bigoted way with Judaism should be none too happy with the casual conflation of what somebody supposedlt said on TV, with drag queens, Stonewall and right and true activism.

History and rewritten history proves tha comparing suffering only cheapens suffering. Damn ignorant, too.

Once again and of course, just my opinion. But I doubt that my gag reflex, however skilled, is less subject to catastrophic failure than most in the presence of shocking narrow minds.
freddyinp'town | 01.28.07 - 1:20 am | #

Drag queens.

(snore...)

The people who we should venerate for Stonewall are the people WHO PARTICIPATED IN STONEWALL.

I don't buy for one second this bullshit that just because some guy today puts on a dress in public that we need to honor and respect him because SOMEONE ELSE in a dress did a real courageous deed thirty or forty years ago.

Drag is basically street theater (often very bad street theater). And while it can certainly portray a message, it has really not done much in fomenting great social change in modern American history.

The people who have REALLY pushed the biggest advances for gays since Stonewall have by and large been activists and lawyers. I suppose that means that gay lawyers should be revered and worshipped too, but somehow that doesn't seem to be the message being put out by those who would instruct us on who we should be thanking for our expanded civil rights.
Allen | 01.28.07 - 1:46 am | #

Peace rally..that's a rather amorphous term. What exactly was the point of the peace rally? Getting U.S. troops out of Iraq ? Ending Iraqi civil war? Generally promoting peace in the ME and world? That would make a difference in whether the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is an appropriate issue to address. That said I don't think pulling our troops out of Iraq is dependent on solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I also don't know how a peace rally in the U.S. or a solution to the I-P conflict would stop the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Iraq.
As for drag queens...gay pride events are for the gay community, they are a celebration of who we are, so come as flamboyantly as you like. I don't think the community should cater to the sensibilities of the most repressed members of the community or uptight straight lookielous at such events. Gay rights rallies where we're trying to persuade some of those very same uptight people to respect our rights are another matter. How would you dress to go to the bank for a loan? For a court date? For a job interview? It would be great if you could do some of those these dressed as freaked out as you like and maybe sometime in the future we'll have evolved to that standard but that's not where we're at right now. If you feel you must wear drag, leather, etc... to be true to yourself at least dress as conservatively as you would for say a court date and act accordingly. No mooning or flashing titties.
happykappa | 01.28.07 - 2:04 am | #

I have difficulty with this opinion about the C-Span guest.

I, for one, believe that former Democratic US President Jimmy Carter is 1000% correct about his observations and his suggestions for the Middle East crises....from Israel to Palestine to Iran and Iraq - the latter two carved out of the Ottoman Empire by our now junior partners, the former British Empire.

As a Christian prelate - either as a Western Church Anglican or an Eastern Orthodox Christian layperson - our love of our Judaic roots and of our Saviour is clear. Like Carter, I have many friends who adhere to Judaism as their faith system....Orthodox, Conservative and Reform in their form of theological belief.

We are all horrified by the German Nazi Holocaust or the Russian pogroms against Jews by a Russian Orthodoxy who believed that they were murdering Christ Killers and "perfidious Jews".

We are equally horrified at the Likud and Zionist factions who frustrate peace and the AIPAC lobby who contribute to it, and involve the US government in their attempts to neutralise their enemies in the region.
RtRevRES | 01.28.07 - 3:30 am | #

i'm not a huge fan of israel and it's policies, but i trust them a hell lot more than i do the palestinians.

do you honestly think that if israel ceased to exist, there would be peace in the middle east.

remember kids, fight one thing at a time. that's the only way you'll win. and if i see another mumia tshirt i'm going to puke.
truthiness 06 | 01.28.07 - 3:32 am | #

"Truthiness" - with all due respect, whom is speaking about the destruction of Israel among those who oppose the Zionist and AIPAC realities, eh??

I realise that this is their talking points from which these groups label their detractors with both offensive and untruthful words.

True, moderate Islamic states are being replaced by fundamentalist ones with Shari'a law who hang and murder gay and lesbian brothers and sisters. It is true that Israeli fundamentalists have no love for gays either - witness the Jerusalem international opposition by Catholics, fundy Protestant and Orthodox Jews against the international LBGT conference last year - however, it is possible to live a tolerated life in Israel as a gay single or couple.
RtRevRES | 01.28.07 - 3:38 am | #

The solution today ( and forget the past in order to avoid worse solutions in the future ) is an Israeli state surrounded by Jordan and Palestine and other nations who are Islamic but secular and moderate.

I realise that this reality is becoming less and less likely as the result of the nuclear actions of Israel with the arms and complicity of the United States, but I believe that it is the only solution.

Israel wants to retain its reality as a Jewish theocratic state. It fears that incorporating its Arab neighbours into citizenship will dilute that reality.

Hitler and the Holocaust and the reality of the Survivors created the Zionist state. It was the postwar solution to millions of displaced and horribly persecuted Jews of Europe. Non-diasporic Jews in the Middle East lived in peace with Arab Muslim or Christian neighbours in the Holy Land.

I have seen the death and destruction there throughout four decades as an adult observer. I have seen Arab Christians in Palestine and in Lebanon migrate out of the region. I have seen moderate Arab Muslim voices become strident and violent due to the policies of nuclear weapon threats and modern warfare and arms fighting rocks and stones and then inferior arms and now, sadly, suicide bombers who feel that there is no other way.
RtRevRES | 01.28.07 - 3:51 am | #

This notion that we can win over the more conservative people to our progressive way of thinking by pandering to their sensibilities by tempering our appearance is ridiculous. It reminds me of the small "d" Democrats who play to the swing voters and worry about being too partisan. Either you are for this war or you are against it. If you are a conservative person against the war who doesn't like to associate with diverse populations then form your own anti-war rally. If you were for this war but are too stubborn to admit you were wrong, you're going to be left behind along with your sad, pathetic, psychologically damaged, emotionally stunted Neocon leaders who can only go so far as to say that the war was botched by an inept Bush Administration. Sorry, you were dead wrong and you need to be concerned with winning OUR approval.
Dula | 01.28.07 - 3:55 am | #

I am a Canadian, an Anglican, a bishop and one who supports LGBT issues without question.

If you throw Leviticus at me, you had better be prepared to show me your Kosher kitchen, and your disdain for pigskin during your Super Bowl.

If you throw Paul and his letter to Roman Pagans, you had better be prepared to show me pagan temples, and heterosexual male and female prostitutes engaging in unnatural sex with their own. Unnatural because it is against "their" nature as heterosexuals.

No, we Canadians now are dealing with life AFTER gays and lesbians have won ALL THEIR HUMAN AND CIVIL RIGHTS

Look what we have done for the Institute of Marriage for both opposite and sex coupling numbers:
Gay marriage bolsters institute in Canada

"Jan 17, 2007 - Gay marriage in Canada is bolstering marriage rates and giving new life to an ever-evolving institute, the latest government data shows. A report released today by Statistics Canada looks at marriages registered in this country during 2003, the first year that provincial governments began registering same-sex marriages. Data shows only provinces with equal marriage experienced growth." (until the Marriage Act was federally passed in 2005).

Who supported us, and whom did we support? The Canadian Peace Movement, liberal Christians, Jews and Christians, Progressive Women's Caucuses, and the millions of heterosexual Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays...in and out of that organisation.

We had drag queens and professionals in Wall Street drag. We had lawyers, physicians and sociologists in defence of the neocon pseudo-scientists.

We had progressive theologians, including John, some Greek Orthodox and Catholic clergy voices in opposition to their Hierarchs. In the Oecumenical Patriarchate's North and South American archdiocese, it is safe to say that both the West's +Benedict and the East's +Bartholomew were "not pleased" with their support.

When you are a minority fighting for your human and civil rights and an end to spiritual violence, you must include all voices to create the chorus that harmoniously sings in tune. +Raymond
RtRevRES | 01.28.07 - 4:30 am | #

I guess one important question is: HOW does the rally intend to achieve its ends? Is just an expression of solidarity and a motivation for the base -- both worthy goals -- or is it an education workshop for those involved, or is it saying to politicians "look at the sheer numbers of us" or "look at the diversity of these people," or is it directed at the "swing votes" -- if so many of us believe in this cause, it's okay for you to as well -- or is it a sort of "threat" to those opposed to the protest -- we're here, we're _____?

There's no doubt that untangling these motivations -- let alone choosing one or two of them to advance -- is impossible, but I think it's worth noting that people DO go to these things for a variety of reasons, and some of them are incompatible. We could add "vent aggression" or "break stuff" to the above list too.

I guess that, in my mind, it should come down to "what are the spoken/unspoken aims of the march," and then "how an I, as an individual, advance those aims."

Maybe the people who go there on an anti-zionist platform view the march as an educational exercise, and they also add to the sheer numbers of the thing. Maybe they threaten reactionaries too. But what was the point of the DC rally? I'd guess it was "rallying the base" plus "influence politicians" plus "sway swing votes."

But then, I wasn't there. And my experiences in rallies/protests is pretty small. So maybe I'm talking out of my butt.

Other things: I agree that much drag-queening appears to be bad street theater. I don't like watching drag shows myself, I think they're usually pretty boring. And I certainly don't tend to venerate the culture, which -- in my experience -- is rife with ego and competition.

So I see the point that, if we're going from a "who advanced the rights" point-of-view, civil rights lawyers may deserve the most credit.

I think drag queens tend to be picked instead, however -- rightly or wrongly -- in the same way that sports teams have an obnoxious mascot: something over-the-top, unique to the team, and outgoing to rally around. And the Court systems certainly raise money for charities, though I wonder about the motivation for queens who take part (there's something to be said for telling a person that they're part of a legacy of change, giving, etc.)

I'd say that's the IDEA. But in practice it tends to be "I'm pretending to be Madonna, I'm better than that b*tch over there, and I hope you'll tip me." Though maybe I'm cynical.

And for the few who think this discussion is in some way DEVIATING from the Iraq war, I can only say: this discussion is at least in part about the protest march. John made points about the people in marches. My response was just my thought about my own experiences in rallies/marches. I am not in any-crazy-way saying "Drag Queen = Iraq War" or something, I'm just thinking about the people who march, why they march, and how they add or subtract from the march's ends.
Muffy St. Bernard | Homepage | 01.28.07 - 8:26 am | #

I know you're smart, but you don't know everything. If you would do some more research you would discover the role that the right-wing Israeli government played in the administration's decision to go to war against Iraq. It's entirely appropriate for Israel to be heavily implicated in the mess we currently find ourselves in. And again, I repeat, that being against a right-wing government does not translate into being anti-Semitic.
LoneTreeFox | 01.28.07 - 8:45 am | #

As a female who insists on comfortable shoes at all times, I don't see how anybody could dress up like a drag queen does and be ABLE to do much marching in a protest march. The shoes would be killing his feet in no time.
Emily | 01.28.07 - 8:47 am | #

John:

I agree that Israel should not be a discussion topic at this particular anti-war protest.

However, you, and most Americans, are always quick to silence those of us who are legitimately concerned about the immoral, illegal, and unjust actions of Israel.

The bombing of Lebanon was just plain 'murder'. It can't be blown off as just part of the ongoing conlfict. It was outrageous. It was illegal. It violated all our agreements with them, and we, The Bush Administration, sat in cold, stone silence and let it happen.

Until America can have a reasonable discussion about Israel we will never solve the Mid East problem. Israel is the Big Elephant in the room and we can't talk about it. Even our esteemed Jimmy Carter gets shouted down when he raises his gentle, peaceful voice.

There is something seriously wrong with these pro-Israel extremists who cry 'anti-Semite' every time someone has a legitimate criticism of Israel.

In reality, this is every bit as big an issue as Iraq, it just isn't the current topic of the day. However, it needs to become the major issue of the day very soon.

Thanks for listening. I will await the anti-Semite charges from the Israeli lobby.

Joe Watts
Joe Watts | 01.28.07 - 8:59 am | #

Golda Meir said it and it stilds true.

If the Arabs put down their weapons, there could be peace. If there Israelis put down their weapons, there would be no more Israel.

The sad fact is that there are thousands of Arabs who live freely (poliliticall, religious and socially) in the state of Israel. But how many Jews would be able to live the same way in an arab state?
American Jew | 01.28.07 - 9:11 am | #

Emily, I've never had a problem with that...there are degrees of shoe-insanity, but I can spend about 3 hours walking on hard concrete in moderately crazy shoes. The aching and the blisters might come later, though...
Muffy St. Bernard | Homepage | 01.28.07 - 9:19 am | #

Dear American Jew -

I am happy that you have chosen to live in either Canada or in your case, the United States. Here, you can express your allegiance to your country, and choose the theological perspective in practicing Judaism - from Reform to Orthodox.

Zionism was a failed political reality until the dreaded Holocaust came to an end with the destruction of Nazi Germany....thank God !!!!

Jews who remained in the Middle East despite the international diaspora had a different perspective than the droves of European Holocaust victims who came to what was then Palestine and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.
These men and women - with new Hebrew names and language (no Yiddish)- carved a nation using whatever "terrorism" was necessary.

Like we Europeans who "colonialised" this hemisphere by committing genocide against the First Peoples or aboriginal tribes here; our hatred and greed covered our shame.

There is a level of shame in connexion with the genocide of the Palestinian people. Rocks and stones as against American-made weaponry in order to secure the entire Palestinian land....and much of which was Jordan.

Differentiate between your faith and your ethnicity (whether you can trace to tribe or to conversion groups) and Zionism and "Manifest Destiny".

You share this reality with many faith systems who can freely practice in this hemisphere. Roman Catholics, for example, have a prelate who is the Chief of State of the Vatican City State, that, like Israel, is a theocracy (official UN terminology).

Israel is a nation with many political parties and opinions. Two major and now three major parties have prominence. The Labour and Likud realities have been subordinated by a group that is more right than the Likud.

Fear is an emotion that makes one's behaviour often more strident. Since the Yom Kippur war, Israel became a nuclear state by proxy. Please note that the first Labour defeat since Ben-Guirion was Likud under Begin.
Rt.Rev.RS | 01.28.07 - 10:09 am | #

Because Israel IS THE GODDAMN TOPIC.

They're the single reason for 95% of terrorism in the middle east. Our support of Israel and our blindness to their apartheid policy and their violence is the reason for terrorism against US interests.

That's the elephant in the living room.
lordi | 01.28.07 - 10:10 am | #

Lordi-

Our next great concerns as a global village are the events in Lebanon, Syria and Iran.

I was in Beirut before the Israeli attacks with US-purchased assets undid all the infrastructure and tourism re-built over the last six or seven years.

Turn the other cheek is sublimated to an eye for an eye. "Revenge is mine, I SHALL REPAY, says the Lord God Almighty. Obviously the right wingers in Israel believe that God needs their help.

We all fear an attack on Iran or their nuclear assets. If you believe that Israel possesses nuclear arms and have the US proxy membership in the nuclear club, you can understand why the entire region wants to become nuclear.

If Iran is attacked, despite their protestations, and despite plans already drawn, the world will be precariously closer to opening Pandora's box.
Rt.Rev.RS | 01.28.07 - 11:23 am | #

The rewriting of History here is astounding.
American Jew | 01.28.07 - 11:36 am | #

John: I read and enjoy your blog. But I so disagree with your comments regarding the woman whom you labeled idiotic for speaking out about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. There were some black speakers, including Jesse Jackson, who spoke about racism and poverty. Did you consider them idiotic? You didn't mention that they were off-topic. Is there a double standard here? Yes. And I agree with many of the posters here that any criticism of Israel is construed as being anti-semitic. We must get past this point and accept a serious discussion of the policies and actions of the right-wing government in control of Israel. And saying that most American Jews will be turned off by this inclusion means that most American Jews are in favor of the policies of this right-wing Israeli government. This simply is not true. But if you listen to the propaganda put out by AIPAC they would have you believe this. Mearsheimer and Walt are right about this: the AIPAC lobby wields too much influence and power in the US. We must get to a point where we can accept discussion about Israel without having labels of anti-semitism automatically hurled. The safety and future of both Israel and the US depend on it.
ralph ens | 01.28.07 - 11:55 am | #

American Jew - let us engage each other.
What history do you dispute?

Do you believe that all individuals who oppose Zionism, right wing Israelis, AIPAC and their influence on American foreign policy in the Middle East a reason to label someone an "anti-Semitic" person?

How do you stand on American Jews who have spied for Israel and provided that government with American state secrets? Do you consider them traitors?

Do you agree with Jimmy Carter or Alan Dershowitz and did you view the programme on TV or online at Brandeis University were Carter received a standing ovation after he finished his remarks?

That is good for a beginning, I would think.
Rt.Rev.RS | 01.28.07 - 12:47 pm | #

The point is not whether or not the Israeli government's policies are right or wrong. The point is that an anti-Iraq war rally is not the place to debate them.

May as well bring out the Free Mumia crowd while your at it.
Esther | 01.28.07 - 1:18 pm | #

Israeli Cabinet approves first Arab minister

http://jta.org/page_view_breakin....asp? intid=6653

There are plenty of other Arabs working within the ISrali government.

Tell me, which Arab country has even one jew that works for its government?
American Jew | 01.28.07 - 1:43 pm | #

One reason we should emulate the civil rights' marchers tactic of wearing their Sunday best (or their best job-interview clothes) was because we are fighting an uphill battle to be taken seriously -- especially when you have writers for the New York Times getting conned by GOP operatives:

http://phoenixwoman.blogspot.com...mage- redux.html
Phoenix Woman | Homepage | 01.28.07 - 4:15 pm | #

Did anybody read Matt Taibbi's book? He basically reads the modern-day protester the riot act. In good form, too. The right-stream media isn't going to fear random groups with random messages. They will fear a unified voice in pumps. (i.e. hippies do not evoke fear.)
Shawn | Homepage | 01.28.07 - 6:43 pm | #

We dont need jews by the way. THEY NEED US!
Bueller | 01.29.07 - 10:10 am | #

SO it's wrong to speak about the Israeli occupation, but lets turn this post inbtoi all about drag queens?

John, you are a self centered idiot!
Bueller | 01.29.07 - 10:12 am | #

Hey John you moron, drag fags aren't allowed to march in Israel. What, no stupicd comments about that? Why?
American | 01.29.07 - 10:19 am | #

Tell me, which Arab country has even one jew that works for its government?
American Jew

Isn't that AMerican religious idiot?

Need to know one country, AIPAC swine?

IRAN.....now drop dead war mongering semite!
American...not a jew, 100% Ame | 01.29.07 - 10:22 am | #

By the way JOHN YOU ASSHAT...if you think there were only 50,000 people at the rally, you need to clear the semen out of your eyes and get up off your knees.

THERE WERe EASILY OVER 150,000 people there you moron.

STOP LIEING AND TELL THETRRUTH
American...not a jew, 100% Ame | 01.29.07 - 10:24 am | #

MLK Jr. spoke a message of peace and liberty for all.

and he was called an insurgent in the media... look it up. it doesn't matter what you say or how you say it... if you are the downtrodden.

the media, the establishment will always find a way to make to marginalize you. if you are too dangerous, they will kill you. the more things change, the more they stay the same.

-Hype
HyperSphere01 | Homepage | 01.29.07 - 11:08 am | #

I hope this information could be useful,and if anyone could help shed light I would be greatful .

I'am a victim of psychiatric abuse its a crime, and in hospital I have witnessed the twisted mentality of mental health professionals such as abuse like punishing me with force drugging of antipsychotics , chemical restraints ,isolation for days at a time with in appropriate meals, and nursing staff threating me with anything they thought of and it just depends on how mad you got the staff that day. I never did anything out of control or did I get violent,yet I was just standing up for patients rights and making my argued opinions in result I would get tortured with over dosing of forced antipsychotic drugs. I have even witnessed nursing staff murder a co-patient and it was sickening,frustrating and very sad part of my life. I also have a young friend who got an E.C.T done and it has completly fried his memory. after the reinforcement of drugs I have had tremors symtoms of N.M.S head pains, heart cardiac pains,weight gain ,dizzyness and sleepiness all caused by side affects of antipsychotic drugs. I suffer each day with the symptoms and I don't think I will live that long on psychiatric medication its deadly look at the statistics if anyone can help me with this prosectution I would appreciate all the help I can get please I can name a few people who were responsible for the murders of some people:
Dr. David Cochrane (psychiatrist)
R.N: Mark Samuel ,R.P.N: Sandy ,Robb

All this took place at the Northeast Mental Health Center abbreviated N.E.M.H.C use to be called the north bay psychiatric hospital
P.O. Box 3010 4700
Highway 11 N
North Bay, ON,CA
Crystal | 01.29.07 - 12:43 pm | #

Sorry, John, but the Israeli Occupation, with its 40-year slow-motion GENOCIDE and the Iraqui Occupation of "only" 4 years are all part and parcel of the same problem, the same Greed for empire enforced by Violence, the same RACISM.
I noticed the palpable disconcert with the crowd, but I thought, as an anti-war protest, she was completely relevant. The problem is, these so-called "Liberal Jews" whose hypocrisy and DENIAL allows them to protest every injustice in the world EXCEPT those perpetrated by their Scared Cow, cannot be counted on. With "Allies" like that, you hardly need enemies, because when the chips are all down, say, down to that big war they want with IRAN (preferably again fought and financed by US!)they'll abandon us for Israel's interests, because THAT's how conflicted they are.
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