good morning!

did we start impeachment hearings on bush and cheney yet? and if not, why not?
bill in nj | 12.07.07 - 8:01 am | #

the dems dropped the hate crime bill from the defense bill yesterday. you have to find out what dems took that out of the legislation and vote those dems out of office. we now have to vote out of office pelosi, schumer and feinstein and the dems that took this sad step.
bill in nj | 12.07.07 - 8:08 am | #

at least romney cleared things up
dad | 12.07.07 - 8:11 am | #

[ * ]
smoke | Homepage | 12.07.07 - 8:11 am | #

hello
Joe
bill
smoke
dad | 12.07.07 - 8:13 am | #

dad . . . (all)
.
smoke | Homepage | 12.07.07 - 8:15 am | #

hey dad, how's it hanging.
bill in nj | 12.07.07 - 8:16 am | #

The dems dropped the hate crime bill from the defense bill yesterday.

That's a shame.

Even though I am a conservative, and support the GOP . . . as a Christian I supported the Violence Against Women Act and the hate crimes bill. Women and gays need these protections. As Jesus said, "whatever you do to the least of me, you do to me."
Get It Right | 12.07.07 - 8:21 am | #

So what's become of Rudy's shag fund debacle? It seems to have blown off the radar - which is a shame, as he is equally as big a piece of dissembling shit as F*ckabee...
Your Uncle Bastard | 12.07.07 - 8:22 am | #

Get It Right | 12.07.07 - 8:21 am |

Thank you - your reasonableness is a dramatic departure from most conservatives we hear from on this site...clearly you walk the walk, and don't just talk the talk. :-)
Your Uncle Bastard | 12.07.07 - 8:23 am | #

The most horrible words you can hear......WE ARE FROM A PRIVATE MORTGAGE COMPANY AND WE ARE HERE TO HELP!
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/0...ortgage.html? hp
henry wallace | 12.07.07 - 8:27 am | #

Cofer Black of BLACKWATER is Romney's counter-terrorism advisor...

That needs to be hung around Romney's neck like a plump albatross.
bumpkis | Homepage | 12.07.07 - 8:31 am | #

"On, the Dem. side, no scandal."

No, just a collossal failure of leadership and a tremendous example of stupidity. The collapse of hate crimes legislation, that is.
Ed Sikov | Homepage | 12.07.07 - 8:33 am | #

not bad bill, you?
dad | 12.07.07 - 8:36 am | #

GIR, have you picked your evil yet?
dad | 12.07.07 - 8:37 am | #

Bush's war crimes buddy down under, former PM Howard, remains in seclusion after losing the election and his own seat in Parliament last month. (LOL) It will be a great day for America, when Bush reunites with Howard, Blair, Aznar and Berlusconi for judegement at their Iraq war crimes trial in the Hague.
http://afp.google.com/article/ AL...bYhwaUzdxZGzmIA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Int..._Criminal_Court


Nigel Elliott | Homepage | 12.07.07 - 8:40 am | #

Invite your family and friends to participate and support your candidate!

IndependentPrimary.Com was started by independent political activists from across America to establish and measure the power and impact of independent-minded voters on the presidential election.

We are part of a movement bringing together ordinary Americans who think that the good of the country is more important than the good of the political parties.

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We are committed to find a new way of doing politics that is free from the domination of big money, political party bosses and the corporate-owned media.

How can you help? Click here to tell all of your friends to vote at IndependentPrimary.Org>
KiKi | 12.07.07 - 8:44 am | #

Sorry, here is the site to vote on.

http:// salsa.democracyinaction.o...friend_KEY=2183
KiKi | 12.07.07 - 8:47 am | #

In his new book, “The Fall of the House of Bush,” the reporter Craig Unger (the author of the 2004 book “House of Bush, House of Saud”) attempts to turn an all-encompassing, wide-angle lens on the Bush presidency, looking at the rise of George W. Bush and his support from the religious right; his relationship with his father, George H. W. Bush, and its impact on foreign policy; the alliance between Israeli hard-liners and Christian Zionists, and the neoconservatives’ push for the war against Iraq; the administration’s use of flawed intelligence before the invasion; and Vice President Dick Cheney’s efforts to expand executive power. The resulting book is a sprawling hodgepodge of the persuasive and the speculative, the well researched and the hastily assembled, the original and the highly derivative.

Among the assertions that Mr. Unger makes in this book are that Mr. Cheney initially wanted Paul D. Wolfowitz (who as deputy defense secretary became one of the chief architects of the war against Iraq) to be made head of the C.I.A., a plan that was supposedly derailed because of Mr. Wolfowitz’s marital indiscretions, which would later play a role in his downfall at the World Bank.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/0...oks/ 07book.html
hector | 12.07.07 - 8:48 am | #

We believe democracy cannot exist without separation of church and state, not that public displays of faith are anathema. We believe, as did the founding fathers, that no specific religion should be elevated above all others by the government.

The authors of the Constitution knew that requiring specific declarations of religious belief (like Mr. Romney saying he believes Jesus was the son of God) is a step toward imposing that belief on all Americans. That is why they wrote in Article VI that “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

And yet, religious testing has gained strength in the last few elections. Mike Huckabee, a Baptist minister, has made it the cornerstone of his campaign. John McCain, another Republican who struggles to win over the religious right, calls America “a Christian nation.”

The Crisis of Faith
dad | 12.07.07 - 8:48 am | #

no complaints,dad, thanks for asking.
bill in nj | 12.07.07 - 8:56 am | #

If anyone cares, Michael1 is talking to himself, incoherantly, on the thread below.

Rather pathetic.
Anonymous | 12.07.07 - 9:05 am | #

Lesson in PHOTOSHOP on the agenda no doubt....they just never quit do they?

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Sat...icle% 2FShowFull

Disappointed after failing to make their case on Iran and influence the outcome of the United States's National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) released this week, Military Intelligence will present its hard core evidence on the Islamic Republic's nuclear program on Sunday to the chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff during a rare visit he will be making to Israel.
bumpkis | Homepage | 12.07.07 - 9:17 am | #

Republicans are all fucking liars.
Jeff Gannon | 12.07.07 - 9:18 am | #

Keith Olbermann rocks!
Jeff Gannon | 12.07.07 - 9:19 am | #

No scandal for the Dems???

What about Hillary's chief CHINEESE COMMUNIST fundraiser getting INDICTED this week????

NIce try fuckheads.

Americafag loses again.

NOw, back to ISRAEL bombing Iran very soon.
Cepan | 12.07.07 - 9:31 am | #

Democrats KNEW of the tapes the CIA destroyed.
IMPEACH THEM ALL!!!


Rep. Jane Harman of California, then the senior Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, was one of only four members of Congress in 2003 informed of the tapes’ existence and the CIA’s intention to ultimately destroy them.

“I told the CIA that destroying videotapes of interrogations was a bad idea and urged them in writing not to do it,” Harman said. While key lawmakers were briefed on the CIA’s intention to destroy the tapes, they were not notified two years later when the spy agency actually carried out the plan. Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va., said the committee only learned of the tapes’ destruction in November 2006.
Cepan | 12.07.07 - 9:34 am | #

Democrats KNEW of the tapes the CIA destroyed.
IMPEACH THEM ALL!!!


Rep. Jane Harman of California, then the senior Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, was one of only four members of Congress in 2003 informed of the tapes’ existence and the CIA’s intention to ultimately destroy them.

“I told the CIA that destroying videotapes of interrogations was a bad idea and urged them in writing not to do it,” Harman said. While key lawmakers were briefed on the CIA’s intention to destroy the tapes, they were not notified two years later when the spy agency actually carried out the plan. Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va., said the committee only learned of the tapes’ destruction in November 2006.
Cepan | 12.07.07 - 9:34 am | #

Two, two, TWO times the crap.
Anonymous | 12.07.07 - 9:40 am | #

Three, three, THREE times the crap from bedpan.
Anonymous | 12.07.07 - 9:43 am | #

Joe Scarborough can go to Hell for defending waterboarding today
jr | 12.07.07 - 9:58 am | #

Wes Clark endorsing Hillary. Is he perhaps a candidate for her VP?
liberAL | 12.07.07 - 10:02 am | #

The New York Times turns the story completely upside down to bash the Democrats.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/0...07cnd- hate.html

Hate bill, which passed the House, was put by Senate Dems into a defense bill to try to pass it, and have given up.

NO ONE expected that bill to go through the Senate or past Bush's desk. So the effort to put it in the defense bill was a good gambit, unlikely to succeed (as it didn't).

But the NYT uses "Congressional" as a spin for "Senate" and obscures the 'good effort' aspect, calling it back down -- trying to disenfranchize the GLB(T) community from Congressional Democrats -- no doubt because they are still a liberal newspaper.
Paul in LA | 12.07.07 - 10:16 am | #

"Wes Clark endorsing Hillary. Is he perhaps a candidate for her VP?" --liberAL

Ding ding ding.
Paul in LA | 12.07.07 - 10:17 am | #

A Quick History Lesson For Mitt

actor212 | Homepage | 12.07.07 - 10:19 am | #

"Democrats KNEW of the tapes the CIA destroyed.
IMPEACH THEM ALL!!!"

Clearly you are reading impaired.


Rep. Jane Harman of California, then the senior Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, was...[the ONLY Democrat informed of this act]."

They spin that to confuse the issue, but the RANKING MEMBER at the time is NOT the majority Democrats of today.

Rep. Harmon is a Blue Dog, not a mainstream Democrat. She's supported Bushco's policies A LOT. And she would not have been AUTHORIZED to share that top secret information with any other person, certainly not the minority leadership.

You also ignore the fact that Speaker Pelosi blocked Harmon from becoming Chairperson. That's for a reason.
Paul in LA | 12.07.07 - 10:23 am | #

(sorry, missed a tag)
Paul in LA | 12.07.07 - 10:23 am | #

DEAR WAYNE...
OleHippieChick | Homepage | 12.07.07 - 10:24 am | #

the dems dropped the hate crime bill from the defense bill yesterday. you have to find out what dems took that out of the legislation and vote those dems out of office. we now have to vote out of office pelosi, schumer and feinstein and the dems that took this sad step. --bill in nj

Oh, I see, you already blame her.

Well, Senator Kennedy took it out (the bill sponsor). Senator Taucher, who is on the same committee said that the votes to get the bill out of committee with that in it were NOT enough.

Senator Kennedy said he intends to try again early next year.

So, yeah -- find out who's on your side, and attack them.
Paul in LA | 12.07.07 - 10:33 am | #

What else?

Lessee:
In 1974 at the Medical college of Virginia, researchers funded by the National Institute of Health to find evidence that cannabis damages the immune system, instead discovered that the active ingredient of cannabis, THC, slowed the growth of three kinds of cancer in mice--lung and breast cancer, and a virus induced leukemia. The DEA quickly shut down all cannabis/tumor research. There was one report of this finding by the Washington Post. In 1976 Gerald Ford put an end to all public cannabis research and gave all rights to major pharmaceutical companies to develop a synthetic alternative to THC. Obviously they failed. In 1983 the Reagan/Bush Administration tried to persuade American universities and researchers to destroy all 1966-76 cannabis research.
Not until 2000, in Madrid Spain did Dr. Manuel Guzman of Complutense University again successfully destroy incurable brain tumors in rats by injecting them with THC. This too has remained hidden. In fact these researchers also irrigated healthy rats brains with large doses of THC for seven days to test for harmful biochemical or neurological effects and found NONE!
Dr. Guzman had heard of the 1974 Virginia study but was unable to obtain any literature. He wrote about the 25 year old censorship to Raymond Cushing, the writer I'm quoting,
"It is extremely interesting to me, the hope that the project seemed to awaken at that moment, and the sad evolution of events during the years following the discovery, until now we once again draw back the veil, over the anti-tumoral power of THC, 25 years later. Unfortunately, the world bumps along between such moments of hope and long periods of intellectual castration."
This was seven years ago! Just a few weeks ago I heard of another successful study being ignored as well.
In 2006 at the Memorial University of Newfoundlnd in Canada it was discovered that cannabis promotes the growth of brain cells. It is also being used there and in Europe to treat Alzheimers, MS, autism, depression, chronic pain, nausea, diabetes, obesity, epilepsy, migraine, arthritis, emphysema, glaucoma, asthma, cystic fibrosis, herpes, alcoholism, Parkinsons, Huntingtons, Tourettes, Crohns disease, and more. But our Government still refuses to allow testing here in the Land of the Free! Think about that, in 2007 our Government refuses to study a plant.
The cannabis seed is the most nutritious thing you can eat. Our Government stockpiles it as a strategic food source under Executive order #12919, yet deny it to us today. Most people have no idea of it's health benefits. Did you? This seed could replace the need for hormones and remnants in our food supply and feedstock which is why American beef is banned in Europe and possibly why your ten year old is developing breasts.
Any of the Earth, soul, and body destroying compounds forced upon us the last seventy years from the oil, coal, timber, or cotton industries can be made better and environmentally safe from cannabis/hemp! All paper, plastics, packaging, fuels, lubricants, paints, varnishes, textiles, pressed board products, structural components, insulations, many health foods, cosmetics, and medicines can all be made with cannabis. Over 25,000 known products. Canvas is Dutch for cannabis. It's fiber is the longest and strongest in nature. One acre of hemp equals four of timber for pulp and you harvest it every year, tree's take a lifetime. It grows without fertilizers, herbicides, or pesticides to foul the soil and water, in soil and conditions other crops wont grow, from the Equator to the Arctic circle.
Cannabis/hemp industrialization will create millions of Earth friendly jobs from the farm to the factory to the laboratory and begin a redistribution of wealth, open our eyes, and bring peace and harmony to the world. We have been deceived!!!
Food, fuel, shelter, medicine, pleasure, spirituality, unity!

www.thc-ministry.org

...Can I be the Poster Child?
Bia | Homepage | 12.07.07 - 10:43 am | #

From the WTF Department

In the NY Times:

The economy added 94,000 jobs last month, the Labor Department said today, a sign of resilience that may ease fears of a recession but open the door for more rate cuts from the Federal Reserve.

The rise in payrolls, after an upwardly revised 170,000 gain in October, was neither a disappointment nor exceptionally strong. It suggests the labor market is treading water even as the deteriorating housing sector continues to drag on construction and manufacturing jobs.

Anyone with two brain cells to lead together knows that the economy needs 150,000 to 200,000 jobs added each month just to remain even - - to account for population gain.

Anything under 200,000 is pretty much just treading water. Anything under 150,000 is not good. Under 100,000 is a freaking disaster.

And yet, the Times reports it as a "sign of resilience." Gawd, this reminds me of the days of Pravda in the old USSR.
nicho | 12.07.07 - 10:56 am | #

I meant "brain cells to rub together." I have the brain cells. I just haven't had enough coffee.
nicho | 12.07.07 - 10:59 am | #

This sucks...
"Senate Republicans and the Bush administration say they will block a final bill if it includes a $21 billion tax package, financed mostly by revoking $13 billion in tax incentives for big oil and gas producers like Exxon Mobil Corp and ConocoPhillips.
Both groups also object to a requirement for utilities to get 15 percent of their power from renewable sources like wind and solar by 2020 - that they say will raise electricity bills for customers in the Southeast in Midwest, which lack plentiful wind and solar resources."

This is Bullshit!
"Without the key agreement, Republicans could drag out debate on the House energy bill indefinitely. Democrats now have little choice but to change the bill in an attempt to gain more Republican votes." SO WHAT, ket it drag!

http://www.boston.com/news/natio...se_energy_bill/
Hawk | 12.07.07 - 2:22 pm | #

bush to perino: " i don't recall exactly when i authorized the destruction of the tapes". perino to press: "the president doesn't recall". and no one lied.
constant comment | 12.07.07 - 4:16 pm | #

Randy Rhodes had a repeat/"best of" with Georgetown Law Prof Jonathan Turley:
http://www.therandirhodesshow.co.../live/node/ 9934

Turley's view is the DNC and GOP have jointly agreed to put power before principle; agreed not to impeach the President. The DNC has agreed to not impeach. A. The objective of WH/DoJ legal counsel with state secret's claims is to prevent any court from adjudicating any criminal activity. Turley's view is that once any court concludes there has been illegal activity (prisoner abuse, FISA violations, illegal warfare), this will force the Congress to impeach. The aim of the Congress (GOP and DNC) and President is to prevent the Courts from reviewing evidednce. The courts know about evidence of war crimes, but the President and COngerss have joinly agreed to invoke/not challenge the "state secret's claim" as a shield to prevent any court from reviewing this evidence. [Avoid a finding of criminality in re SecDef/VP/President on issues of rendition, FISA violations, prisoner abuse, illegal warfare, rendition, torture: Which, are in Turley's view, still occurring.]

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ref:
[ Jonathan Turley, “From Pillar to Post”: The Prosecution of American Presidents, 37 American Criminal Law Review 1049, 1064-66 (2000). ]
B. Turley's written an article about directly prosecuting a sitting President, outside Congress outside impeachment. It's curious despite his authorship of this approach (which would open the door to theSTate AG's prosecuting the President/VP/Members of Congerss) Turley did not mention this state-level option to force Congress' hand in re the impeachment.

What You Can Do
1. Write a hand-written note (not an e-mail) to Turley asking him why he doesn't view his "prosecuting a sitting President"-approach (in his article) as a solution.
2. Encourage Randy Rhodes to read about the state-level prosecution approach; and encourage her to keep this in the back of her mind as she interviews lawyers/others about the roadblocks to impeachment.
3. Contact the State AGs directly with the article citation; ask them what their position is on directly prosecuting a Member of Congerss, President, or VP -- outside COngress, outside impeachment. Encourage the AGs to discuss working together as has been done with the State-privacy claims in re FISA violations.
4. Remind others of an effort to remove Pelosi as Speaker, to make way for impeachment: This would force the DNC and GOP to decide: Do they still value "power over principle" when there is a credible loss of power on the table.
5. Remind your friends the JAGs did write memoranda to the AG's office in 2001 reminding DoD and DoJ personnel (in re the prisoner of war working group meetings) that there was a chance civilians could be prosecuted before the ICC. A decision of the Supreme Court to conclude "this is a state secret" does nothing to address the ICC jurisdication-issues which the JAGs raised. Nuremberg did prosecute war crimes against judicial officers (legla counsel, judges, court officers). THis is a threat to the lawyers and Supreme Court: Are you sure you are not going to challenge the claim of "state secrets" on issues of war crimes evidence?
= = = = = = = = = = = =
On CIA tape destruction: recall the many excuses to hold prisoners at GTMO since 2001: The argument was that it would be good to "keep" the prisoners at GTMO because of their "intelligence value". Quesetion: Why is the US government reversing itself -- on the issue of the destrution of CIA tapes of interrogations -- but no longer keeping these records, as was the basis for the original "long term stay" for the prisoners at GTMO?
In other words, by destroying the CIA tapes (and depriving themselves of these interrogation-lessons), the US government has invalidated the reasons for holding prisoners this long at GTMO: Once a tape has been destroyed, then there is no additional way to "milk" intelligence from that information. The argument was, "We'll learn something else, and help make sense of what they've told us on these tapes." But by destroyign the tapes, the argued-for "futurure intelligence value"-argument falls apaart. It appears the most reasonable answer: Even though there was a "claim" of state secrets, soemone worried that the video tapes would not survive a shield of "state secrets", so the evidence was destroyed.
Anonymous | 12.07.07 - 7:10 pm | #

Law Prof Jonathan Turley Blog
He has his own site:
http://jonathanturley.org/

Contact information for mail:
http://www.law.gwu.edu/faculty/p...le.aspx? id=1738
Anonymous | 12.07.07 - 7:27 pm | #

You people are all wrong. The republicans do not have scandals. Only the democrats. Just ask the jerks in the media.
Anonymous | 12.07.07 - 8:35 pm | #

As for Hills and Bills (Bill Mach 2), the money by my reckoning is Big Pharma's Evan Bayh or (closeted) Wesley Clark. Bayh is another Lieberman Kyl barker and very pro getting money into Indiana via DHS. A real Everett Dirkesen type, imho. I run a google constantly on Our Man Evan. His contributors and Hill's should be compared. As for Wesley, I think he's in the running as Tom Englelhardt says polling SHOWS that most Americans would prefer the military running the country (??!!) and enquiring minds want to know just who paid for that poll??
I've put a piece on how to mail in your impeachment demands to state legislatures via the use of a NOTARY. It's under IMPEACHMENT TOOLKIT if you but run a search in the search box. It should be made into a downloadable file and plastered on Daily KOS, afterdowningstreet, the works.http://ladybroadoak.blogspot.com/2007/12/ impeachment-tookit-how-do-we-imoeach.html
I've tried to figure out exactly which states have already been worked over and which states have some REAL activists, but being up here it's sorta hard. Maybe we need a committee for each state, organized through Daily KOS ?? You know, state organizers WILLING to be contacted? I wish someone would push the cantankerous RON PAUL on the issue until his REAL position and opportunism gets shown to his "crowd" who think that he follows said constitution. He's no effing attorney, that is for SURE. Maybe the CATO institute should take him to the cleaners over it .. he hems, he haws and I am getting tres sick of it personally. WHAT! No grounds for an equiry? Give me a BREAK! The ACLU, CATO, CCR have been all over the Justice Department since Bill's day! AND the House Judiciary Committee.
Bush bashing may be the order and fun of the day, but it ain't ending the killing and trampling of rights .. I think we have to get VERY aggressive with talk show hosts, David Swanson (who's defense of impeachment on The Real News is SO Weak, SO political as to not be believed!!), and the rest of the lot who've made their living off people's anger for WAY too long. Ditto Alex Jones. Precious energy is being diverted.
No one has mentioned that I've seen, that BuZh has ALREADY been convicted of war crimes in Tokyo for torture (and du) in Afghanistan. Why does no one report this?? And can anyone tell me exactly what Geneva Conventions/ rules he got convicted under??
Chambers Johnson's NIE On the United States is good, but is pretty negative on its estimate of the people doing anything .. until it's WAY too late. How do we counter THAT?? http://ladybroadoak.blogspot.com...-on- united.html
I started working on a impeachment FAQ, I think that would be REAL helpful to just put out arguments as we go along .. you know, what they said, what we replied. I did that on an ICH thread. Every "but" should have a written answer!! "But Congress won't .." "But it's not my problem .." "But", "But" "But" .. anything after "but" is BULLSHIT. Perhaps hitting the ACLU, CATO Institute and CCR hard might do some good and getting at least one to 'render a legal opinion' on it that could be strung about? And writing every single overseas group (people for disarmament, the guys who went after Rummy and are now after the Isrealis) to also write in .. all on some fixed date? An impeachment concert to be televised?? Enviromentalists for impeachment! Artists for impeachment! Antinukers for impeachment! Veteran's for impeachment! Human rights activists! Labor unionists aganst making bombs? anti-SPPErs for impeachment!And build it off the Rose Bowl parade demo .. you know, have a handbill with an exact world wide date to hand out there?? That would be almost a month away. And get out a new video and put it on youtube, making it clear on DIGG and other social networking sites that we need to have this up there on LIGHTS, etc. Digg is REAL good at getting people over to youtube.

Meanwhile, just accumulate lists of WAR CRIMES, each and every one. Plus evidence of COLLUSION. Telling people that is what you are doing.
Can you spell
S T O N E W A L L
P E L O S I C O N Y E R S
My article, which was crossposted to Matt Janovic, had 24,668 hits in one day in just Minneapolis .. on HR 1955 .. and is also a condemnation of PELOSI&Co.
http:// ladybroadoak.blogspot.com...dependence.html
Compiling a list of reasons to declare independence, by STATE, declaring grievances one a time may prove to be a very good ploy. Casting Dickie as a The KIng, rather than Georgie may be a bit hard to do, but the two can easily be lumped together in something written carefully. Queen Nancy.
My own, personal take is that arguing with someone like Turley just takes time away from being PROACTIVE.
Also, could someone, anyone forward me a list of said state AGs? Or url I can consulate an easy to find as that should be in an impeachment toolkit.
Before I forget - the REASON that Chretien was let off the hook in the Tokyo tribunal was that he abruptly left office during the Gomery investigation scandal. The issue of Canadian complicity in torture in Afghanistan surfaces -- and then gets shoved down. The Harper is caught up in Parliamentary redherrings just now. Canuck politics as usual. No global insight at ALL. Veeger
Virginia Simson | Homepage | 12.07.07 - 8:40 pm | #