Walking Circumspectly
Thought you might want to hear from someone who does like to hear what you have to say
Your last blog was the first I'd heard about the EC and it got me good and interested, but I'm kind of standing with my mouth agape at the fact that we even need to argue this. It is so clearly not OF GOD to go against His Word. I'm often amazed that people can claim to be doing His work and yet go about it in a way that we can KNOW He wouldn't approve of.
I also think true believers are going to be won by the True Word and our lives reflecting that. If we bend over backwards trying to be like them, what incentive is there to the non-Christian to want to be a Christian? Why bother if there's no difference? And if we believe there is a difference, but we act like there's not to win souls to Christ - we're lying and they're not going to be truly won anyway.
So there's my 25cents: (Why isn't there a cents mark on the keyboard, I wonder)
I like what you had to say. My thought was worth only 1 peso. But you can go wrong when you stick by the word and are led by the Spirit and are compelled by the gospel.
Shannon,
you said "I'm kind of standing with my mouth agape at the fact that we even need to argue this"
You know, I've been researching this for months now, and I still have the same reaction.
It is astounding to me that so many people would heartily embrace unbiblical teachings. Can you imagine waking up tomorrow and half the people you see, walking down the street naked? Can you imagine trying to tell them to get dressed and them reacting by calling YOU, the uneducated one?
Even more, having nude-sympathizers accuse you of being narrow-minded because you're shocked at the conduct these people are displaying.
Now imagine conference after conference, lectures, "gatherings" websites, blogs, books, and more and more people embracing it nearly every day.
You speak up, YOU become the bad guy.
Amazing, eh?
Oops...I hate typing. My post was missing a letter....CAN should be CAN'T. My bad! I'm not a heretic, I swear.
AMEN and AMEN! The timing of your EC postings is stellar. I was just posting on this very topic two days ago and here you are!! J and I personally know what it is like to be treated as though we are the ignorant fool in this arena. The church that we were attending when we first moved to NC was an EC church. Praise God that the Lord illuminated it for what it was and provided us with a new church home that doesn't have to hide its doctrines, doesn't treat truth like it is the problem and boasts only in the Cross and Him Crucified.
I could go on for DAYS about it but I will just say for anyone who is all for EC, keep your EYES OPEN and FIXED on SCRIPTURE! God isn't calling us to be counter-scripture and SINNING MORE should never be an evangelism tool. Nor should Sin be called something else in the name of Love.
People "searching for God" for the last..oh, couple hundred years or so have known to find Him in a church. What I mean is, when I was 21 back in the 80's and wanted to become a Christian I went to a CHURCH!! And guess what? I was led to Christ! And I was baptized! I didn't need to become more like the world than I already was, I didn't need to attend a (rock) concert and I didn't need to express bad language to find Him. I knew who would know and I knew where to go.
I think people involved in the EC movement are actually looking for ways to embrace the world because, like Lot's wife, they don't want to turn their back on it.
I keep thinking "I'm sorry Lord, that when you come back for your Bride this is the state you'll find Her in." If only we could be spotless and have our act(s) together for His sake.
Carla, I don't think that speaking up about this makes anyone a "bad guy".
I hope I haven't given the impression that I felt that anyone was a bad guy. I also hope I haven't given the impression that I am all about EC, or for that matter Purpose Driven, Joel Osteen, Robert Schuller or a hundred other names. Much of what passes as Christianity in our world smacks of commercial and faddish approaches. I want classic Christianity, not classic 1940's Christianity, I want the 2,000 plus years old variety. I, like Paul preach Christ crucified.
I think that the reason that people latch on to things like these is that there is an element of truth there.
No, I don't think that blending eastern mystycism and Christianity is biblical but neither do I think that it is biblical to throw out the discipline of solitude just because it may share some vague similarites with eastern mysticism or contemplative monasticism.
I think at some point the church became so institutionalized and tied to a building, etc...that people came to place their faith in the church as an organization designed to meet their spiritual needs rather than being the organism that it is.
So really what I advocate is simple organic Christianity. Roots Christianity, with Christ at the center. I expect nothing more and will accept nothing less.
Well said, Amber. Hey, your blog link isn't working. Are you and J both posting at the new Regeneration site now? I've missed ya'll.
Josh, I knew what you meant!
Jerrad, I hear what you're saying and particularly agree with this: "I want classic Christianity, not classic 1940's Christianity, I want the 2,000 plus years old variety."
YES. So do I. I identify with a lot of what both you and Joanna wrote.
And I agree about the benefits of silence and solitude, but I don't know how much you know about Christian mysticism. It's not just about those things. I am kind of wondering if you've considered any of the criticism of "contemplatives," or have you dismissed it because it is criticism?
Jerrad, I really appreciate your perspective and hope you don't feel attacked--I haven't meant anything that way at all. I don't think, honestly, we're that far apart other than our respective openness or closure to the EC.
I agree with you! Keep up the good work. I appreciate your willingness to say the hard stuff!
Interesting posts, Kristen. I had never heard of the EC, but after a bit of reading, all I have to say is YIKES!! I've read some about the New Age movement and Eastern philosophy and I see some striking similarities between them and the EC. Thanks for bringing this topic up.
Jerrad,
first, my apologies - I made a blanket statement and I shouldn't have done that. I was referring to the experience I've had with numerous pro-EC bloggers that have found their way to my anti-EC blog.
Secondly, (and I'm dog tired so I hope this makes sense) authentic Christianity will be found by opening a Bible, and seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Of course there is more to a genuine, faith-filled life, but this key element is so consistantly overlooked, that many seek wisdom and "spirituality" outside of Scripture. This simply opens the door to more and more mistakes, in a Christian's walk.
I totally agree with that, Carla.
Amen and Amen. I was going to post more, till I read the comments a realized everyone had already said anything i wanted to say! lol. No original thoughts here.
I have long been concerned about the lost of traditional thought, doctrine and theology. I think those things have a place in our midst, even if they are presented in a culturally relevant way. We are called to be apart, holy and separate, not filled up with the World, but filled withthe WORD. Praise God someone is speaking up!
Peace,
Meg
I've been so busy lately, I've not had time to check in, so obviously I've missed *something!*
From what little I've heard of the EC, it seems like just another mutation of Evangelicalism into a dish more palatable to the world. On one hand, I can understand - it might bring more into the fold, genuinely. However, when the doctrine embraces things that are blatantly anti-Scriptural...well, I have to look again. I tend to be cautious about this sort of thing, and like you, I think that most of us know a counterfeit when we see one.
As far as those disagreeing with the EC movement being...well, castigated, I guess: it's very similar to the PDL movement, which is why I think this is just another mutation. Those who disagreed or merely *questioned* PDL - usually with Bible in hand - were verbally abused, run out of churches, and otherwise treated very poorly.
Really...(I'll have to find the original post)...isn't God's Word enough? It's almost simple, really, other than His requiring our changing to reflect Him. Instead, we're too busy trying to look open, hip, 'authentic,' and modern. Sad.
Hi,
I just put the link to my blog in wrong...
Oops, sorry!!
No, I am sticking in there with Blogger. It's free and I just got used to it, so I can't change now 
Anyway, thanks again for your post!
OK, I'm comment #17 and I haven't read the other 16 yet. I wanted to respond to Kristen first.
First, it was never my intent to question or criticize you personally. I guess I was a little defensive in my words, and I'm sorry about that.
What I was reacting to is the wholesale panning an entire movement based on the comments and behavior of some of those who associate them selves with that movement. I am certainly with you on standing against practicing homosexuals that claim to be Christians and therefore attempt to legitimize their lifestyle under the 'compassionate' umbrella of 'Christianity'. Let's call a spade a spade and sin, sin. But there's a difference to me between calling out that individual's sin and calling an entire movement - and by extension all who identify with it - false or dangerous. These sort of blanket judgments, even when some in the group deserve it, hurt the many others who do not. Over the years, my ICOC family of churches have been rightfully criticized for many of their practices. However, when I would meet someone who had heard some of these things, I was judged on that standard. Even though I personally hadn't participated in most of what was criticized, I was guilty already. It didn't matter what I said, did or believed, I was an ICOC member.
So what I'm saying is call out the sin of the individuals, expose their heresies. Be specific and stand up for God's standard, but let's not judge the entire group by the words and deeds of some of them. Doing so creates a label that they them have to work to overcome. Oh, your a part of the emerging church ...
Now to read the other comments.
Ok, I've read the other comments, and re-read my own. I still sound defensive and critical. :-(
I can understand how the EC makes some folks feel. It doesn't seem like Christianity, it looks like something else. They look in the Bible and see standards and judgment on sin, they look at the EC and don't see that. I've met and read some very thoughtful and Bible smart people that are associated with the EC. My impression is that they look at the Bible and see amazing love, compassion and forgiveness. They look at traditional churches and don't see that.
The irony, and sad thing to me, is that there's truth in both. Traditional churches tend to emphasis judgment and minimize grace while the EC churches tend to flip that around. Jesus did both, he forgave the woman caught in adultery and laid out the pharisees. I think that the folks in each group (aside from those on the fringes of each, the homosexual EC'ers and the right wing abortion clinic bombers) could learn something from the other.
Me? I tend to relate more to the love and compassion crowd, EC or not. I think we dismiss folks quickly because of some 'minor' sin like their language. I I admit that I have a hard time reading/listening to someone who curses in the course of saying what they have to say. I think, "Why?" I cannot think of a time when swearing would be appropriate or necessary. But I will say that perhaps that person has something worthwhile to say.
Ok I'm done digging myself in a hole now.
Doug, I appreciate and I hear the heart behind what you are saying. I wasn't personally offended with you AT ALL and I hope you know that. I also know that you see this whole discussion with the eyes of someone who loved/s the ICOC so much...and that's okay. I want you to know that whenever I told someone about my experiences in the ICOC, I took care to say that I think there are many saved in that church, but the practices were off.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the way a)I deal with people and b)see Christianity. The EC people do NOT corner the market on love and compassion!! You wrote, "It doesn't seem like Christianity, it looks like something else. They look in the Bible and see standards and judgment on sin, they look at the EC and don't see that. I've met and read some very thoughtful and Bible smart people that are associated with the EC. My impression is that they look at the Bible and see amazing love, compassion and forgiveness. They look at traditional churches and don't see that."
First of all, I do NOT put on my spectacles and grill someone about their sin and hold them up to some arbitrary standards. When Ryan and I looked for a church, we wanted the WHOLE counsel of God--the kindness and the severity. But to leave out the severity is to leave out half of the equation. Like it or not.
I know a lot of people my age and younger who just DON'T want to hear about or talk about hell, and they think you are a hatemonger if you even bring up God's judgment. But it doesn't make it not true. Jesus teaches us to go and teach disciples to obey His commands. A person open to the Holy Spirit is actually hungry for that instruction and hungry to change...I've seen it.
We can talk all day about what is a minor sin and what isn't; I've written about that before. But the question is this: is this person ready to surrender to Jesus and follow Him, or not? Loving Him IS obeying His commands--He said so.
I don't reject a PERSON, by the way, because they curse or something. But if they continued in this sin or some other after being rebuked in love, at some point I would probably part ways with them. I am sure the Holy Spirit would tell me whether to keep striving with them in love or whether to part...He usually does.
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